Personally I would definitely be a part of the Grey Company. Always loved the lore of Arnor and the Rangers of the North as its last defenders, so the idea of them coming south to defend their sister kingdom and their king is pretty cool.
If I remember something beregond said that the forces of Gondor are only a vanguard of its prime armies in past and I would love to see a video on the armies of Gondor in its prime
If 7000 men, which he referred as "scarcely as the vanguard of its army at the height of its power", then we can guess the average field army of Gondor at its prime was between 21000-35000
@@anti-liberalismo I have a hard time interpreting Imrahil's statement, particularly the 'scarce as many' part. Does he mean scarce as many as in it's only as large as a vanguard in the days of Gondor's peak, or that seven thousand barely sufficed as a vanguard in the Gondorian army?
@@anti-liberalismo Apologies for the late reply. I probably should have worded my comment better: what I meant was 'did Imrahil mean that seven thousand barely sufficed as a vanguard in the Gondorian army *at its height*'? Because if that was what Tolkien meant when he wrote that sentence, then its possible that a Gondorian field army at its height would have been larger than calculated; if, say, we assumed that a Gondorian vanguard averaged at around ten thousand, then taking your calculations, a Gondorian army would have been between 30,000 - 50,000 strong instead of 21,000 - 35,000 strong.
One of the foundations of Númenor's military success lay in the (possible) organization of its soldiers into cohorts; I take this concept as a basis, since the Unfinished Tales informs that the archers of the kings were organized in this way, we can infer the application of this military formation also to the infantry, so that in a complete army of Gondor in the "time of its strength" (in its prime) with a Vanguard with 7000 soldiers (The Return of the King - The Last Debate), plus a "possible" support troop (2² battle line) with 7000 men that could act, if necessary, for the spaces of the first line, forming a long and cohesive Front against the enemy. For me this concept was used in the war of the last alliance and in the conflicts that lasted in the 3rd age. And finally, the Gondorean army would have the application of a 3rd line of combat, which would normally act on the flanks, used as a reserve, both to reinforce an attack and to cover a retreat. Not to mention the cavalry. Assuming that at their peak the armies of Gondor/Arnor followed the (analogous - Cohorts) Roman model of military formation and historiography, it is possible that these kingdoms began to suffer from an "Evil" resulting from this possible "Homogenization of the infantry": the gradual loss of mobility in the field, but as a result, the infantry, if well trained and with the maintenance of the knowledge brought by Númenor, would be more resistant to large attacks, and the more agile forces such as cavalry would decide the battle against the enemy, as Gondor did on occasions such as the battle on the plain between Nenuial and the North Hills (the fall of Angmar in the north); the battle at Dagorlad against the Wainriders (led by Calimehtar, son of Narmacil II); and possibly in the battles at Lebennin and at the Crossings of the Erui (Gondor Civil War), which highlighted two interesting fact: I) Since Eldacar must have been supported by forces from Rhovanion, he must have employed a very experienced and professional cavalry against the Usurper's forces (consisting mostly, in my opinion, of infantry) and this factor must have been one of the key to the success of their cause, which demonstrated the growing importance of cavalry in a scenario that would follow for centuries to come. The first signs came from the campaign against the Wainriders, who exposed the "weakness" of Gondor against more agile and mobile forces on a battlefield conducive to such use. See the Wainriders. II) The development and consolidation of the use and strategic improvement of cavalry by Númenor had been very "backward", given that its use was not a priority for the island's armies, despite the use of horse-archer made up mostly of allies. Remembering that Fingon and his horse-archers were the first to make tactical use of this novelty, see what they did to Glaurung in his youth: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_Archer These horse archers must have been really fantastic, as they combined the speed of cavalry with the dexterity and reach of archers. The use of them as the front line of your army for opening space in the formation of the enemy. But all archer classes were at a disadvantage against melee fighters. 3 - Defensive system of Gondor What could have served as a primary factor for Gondor in maintaining its borders that reached the Sea of Rhûn, since, even in the face of a great distance that this militarized zone had in relation to its center, the lords of Gondor could combine the use of the concept of Themes - it seems to me that the garrisons to the west of the Wold partially followed the concept, and the regions of Ithilien followed more of a concept of the Roman Lindes - as an element for the defense policy that would follow later, like the model in the Byzantine Empire: "In their origin, the first themes were created from the areas of encampment of the field armies of the East Roman Army, and their names corresponded to the military units that had existed in those areas. The theme system reached its apogee in the 9th and 10th centuries, as older themes were split up and the conquest of territory resulted in the creation of new ones. The original theme system underwent significant changes in the 11th and 12th centuries."
The Unfinished tales do also give us an example battle that involved Gondor, in the form of the Disaster of the Morannon. This particular event should be taken with a grain of salt, however, as Ondoher had split the total army of Gondor into a northern army commanded by himself, and a southern army commanded by Earnur. We don't know much about the commanders of Earnur's army, but Ondoher's army had Artamir in command of the center line, Prince Adrahil of Dor-En-Ernil in command of the left wing, and Minohtar in command of the right wing, with the Eotheod serving as the Gondorian equivalent of Roman AuxilIaries.
3000 men is a very low number, specially because Faramir's army from Osgiliath and Rammas Echor was outnumbered 10 to 1 against the army of Minas Morgul and Harad, the army of Harad which fought at the Pelennor Fields was 3 times larger than the army of Rohan, so the haradrim alone had 18k men there. They had suffered heavy losses at Osgiliath and at the Ramad Echor and during the charge of Imrahil, so if they might have had around 20k, then the army under Faramir was at the very least 2000 strong, but there was also the army of Minas Morgul to reckon with, which was larger than the army of Harad, if it was 40k it would have a total of 60k orcs and Haradrim, then Faramir's army might have been as large as 6000 soldiers, without counting Minas Tirith.
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
During the Third Age, Gondor's military prowess eventually declined. The major difference was the Gondorian soldiers themselves: although the soldiers would have proudly fought to the last man, they were never as strong as the warriors of the past especially by the second half of the Third Age. After the Great Plague and the Kin-strife, which left Gondor very weakened, many Numenoreans of pure blood had perished during those troublesome times.
Indeed and Tolkien speaks of the importance of bloodlines and the fact as each age came to pass, magic was leaving the world and the Dunedain were becoming middle men
@@LucidWanderer True and he was. Just saying that the above was important but it didn't guarantee someone would be good or bad like the example you made with castamir. But the Dunedains fate was always decline. Part because the destruction of numenor. Wars, plagues, winters, civil strife. Also part of living in Middle earth as the gifts of the valar were slowly withdrawn as they Dunedain were being adjusted to existence of middle earth
I think you made a pretty accurate guess. There's another passage that could be used (not sure how). But when the Captains of the West discuss how many soldiers they could muster to march to the Black Gate, somebody says "I believe we can lead 7000 men, and still left the city best guarded then before the Battle" or something like that. We know the Rohirrim were about 6000 strong, and many unhorsed men were left behind, and the fiefdoms of the South were still sending men. But I would say that the forces of the City proper prior to the battle would be something around 3 and 4k indeed.
This was a very very interesting video! Pls do more videos like this, more videos about military tactics, military movements...I love that kind of videos. My pick would probbably be Knight of Dol Amroth or Ithillien Ranger, but If they are included then I pick one of Halbarads Rangers that came to help Aragorn! As always great video Jaks, do more these when you find time!
In the war of the Ring there are listed 7900 as reinforcements of Minas Tirith. If we add various garrisons and militias around 30000-35000. Of various qualities being maybe 10000-15000 professional. I imagine that even if not mention the city would have a kind of citizen militia. About the rest I imagine that including sailors and other forces protecting Gondord coast the numbers would be doubled.
Honestly I'd say Gondor at its weakest, if pulled upon its full force against Mordor instead of using their armies sparingly, probably topped around 50,000. A third of the total force that Mordor amassed against Minas Tirith (180,000) and barely able to fight the full might of Mordor (300,000-500,000 strong). Gondor and Rohan really needed divine intervention since militarily both were soundly beaten by Sauron and he knew that.
True, but Sauron relied on his numbers more than the skill of his fighters. So I think it's fair to say that a well trained soldier is atleast 1.5x per orc
Here's a question...what was Sauron's goals at the end of the 3rd Age? We know he began as a worthy Maiar spirit concerned with Order & efficiency....But I can't see where this would lead him once there were No free people left anymore to Order!
Are you forgetting about the Southrons and the Easterlings? What about the Black Numenorians? All sworn to Sauron, but all also human. I think that Sauron was doing it for power. Whether it was power for his master Morgoth or for himself is up for debate.
Tolkien inspired himself in the Roman Empire. Especially the East Roman empire probably Gondor Empire would be also inspired by the Bizantine theme army of the Bizantine reconquest.
Rohan sent barely half of its total strength, Théoden said that he could send some 10k horsemen to Gondor, but since he had to defend Rohan from attacks coming out of Mordor and Dol Guldur, he would send only 6k. Tolkien tells us that the total strength of Rohan during the year 2885 of the third age was 12k, but says that their strength grew far more than 12k up until Théoden's time
Personally I would definitely be a part of the Grey Company. Always loved the lore of Arnor and the Rangers of the North as its last defenders, so the idea of them coming south to defend their sister kingdom and their king is pretty cool.
The northern Dunedain.
Faithful to the end.
Yeah they're my favourite sub faction. I wish they got a little more attention in the books.
@@trentoskivich4211
I love arnor too.
If I remember something beregond said that the forces of Gondor are only a vanguard of its prime armies in past and I would love to see a video on the armies of Gondor in its prime
It was actually Imrahil
If 7000 men, which he referred as "scarcely as the vanguard of its army at the height of its power", then we can guess the average field army of Gondor at its prime was between 21000-35000
@@anti-liberalismo I have a hard time interpreting Imrahil's statement, particularly the 'scarce as many' part. Does he mean scarce as many as in it's only as large as a vanguard in the days of Gondor's peak, or that seven thousand barely sufficed as a vanguard in the Gondorian army?
@@nilubensonofnimruzir1637 he means during gondor's peak
@@anti-liberalismo Apologies for the late reply. I probably should have worded my comment better: what I meant was 'did Imrahil mean that seven thousand barely sufficed as a vanguard in the Gondorian army *at its height*'? Because if that was what Tolkien meant when he wrote that sentence, then its possible that a Gondorian field army at its height would have been larger than calculated; if, say, we assumed that a Gondorian vanguard averaged at around ten thousand, then taking your calculations, a Gondorian army would have been between 30,000 - 50,000 strong instead of 21,000 - 35,000 strong.
One of the foundations of Númenor's military success lay in the (possible) organization of its soldiers into cohorts; I take this concept as a basis, since the Unfinished Tales informs that the archers of the kings were organized in this way, we can infer the application of this military formation also to the infantry, so that in a complete army of Gondor in the "time of its strength" (in its prime) with a Vanguard with 7000 soldiers (The Return of the King - The Last Debate), plus a "possible" support troop (2² battle line) with 7000 men that could act, if necessary, for the spaces of the first line, forming a long and cohesive Front against the enemy.
For me this concept was used in the war of the last alliance and in the conflicts that lasted in the 3rd age. And finally, the Gondorean army would have the application of a 3rd line of combat, which would normally act on the flanks, used as a reserve, both to reinforce an attack and to cover a retreat. Not to mention the cavalry.
Assuming that at their peak the armies of Gondor/Arnor followed the (analogous - Cohorts) Roman model of military formation and historiography, it is possible that these kingdoms began to suffer from an "Evil" resulting from this possible "Homogenization of the infantry": the gradual loss of mobility in the field, but as a result, the infantry, if well trained and with the maintenance of the knowledge brought by Númenor, would be more resistant to large attacks, and the more agile forces such as cavalry would decide the battle against the enemy, as Gondor did on occasions such as the battle on the plain between Nenuial and the North Hills (the fall of Angmar in the north); the battle at Dagorlad against the Wainriders (led by Calimehtar, son of Narmacil II); and possibly in the battles at Lebennin and at the Crossings of the Erui (Gondor Civil War), which highlighted two interesting fact:
I) Since Eldacar must have been supported by forces from Rhovanion, he must have employed a very experienced and professional cavalry against the Usurper's forces (consisting mostly, in my opinion, of infantry) and this factor must have been one of the key to the success of their cause, which demonstrated the growing importance of cavalry in a scenario that would follow for centuries to come. The first signs came from the campaign against the Wainriders, who exposed the "weakness" of Gondor against more agile and mobile forces on a battlefield conducive to such use. See the Wainriders.
II) The development and consolidation of the use and strategic improvement of cavalry by Númenor had been very "backward", given that its use was not a priority for the island's armies, despite the use of horse-archer made up mostly of allies. Remembering that Fingon and his horse-archers were the first to make tactical use of this novelty, see what they did to Glaurung in his youth: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_Archer
These horse archers must have been really fantastic, as they combined the speed of cavalry with the dexterity and reach of archers. The use of them as the front line of your army for opening space in the formation of the enemy. But all archer classes were at a disadvantage against melee fighters.
3 - Defensive system of Gondor
What could have served as a primary factor for Gondor in maintaining its borders that reached the Sea of Rhûn, since, even in the face of a great distance that this militarized zone had in relation to its center, the lords of Gondor could combine the use of the concept of Themes - it seems to me that the garrisons to the west of the Wold partially followed the concept, and the regions of Ithilien followed more of a concept of the Roman Lindes - as an element for the defense policy that would follow later, like the model in the Byzantine Empire:
"In their origin, the first themes were created from the areas of encampment of the field armies of the East Roman Army, and their names corresponded to the military units that had existed in those areas. The theme system reached its apogee in the 9th and 10th centuries, as older themes were split up and the conquest of territory resulted in the creation of new ones. The original theme system underwent significant changes in the 11th and 12th centuries."
The Unfinished tales do also give us an example battle that involved Gondor, in the form of the Disaster of the Morannon. This particular event should be taken with a grain of salt, however, as Ondoher had split the total army of Gondor into a northern army commanded by himself, and a southern army commanded by Earnur. We don't know much about the commanders of Earnur's army, but Ondoher's army had Artamir in command of the center line, Prince Adrahil of Dor-En-Ernil in command of the left wing, and Minohtar in command of the right wing, with the Eotheod serving as the Gondorian equivalent of Roman AuxilIaries.
i came for an awesome video and also got awesome bonus material lol..thank you :)
I also thought that Gondor could use the theme system .
3000 men is a very low number, specially because Faramir's army from Osgiliath and Rammas Echor was outnumbered 10 to 1 against the army of Minas Morgul and Harad, the army of Harad which fought at the Pelennor Fields was 3 times larger than the army of Rohan, so the haradrim alone had 18k men there. They had suffered heavy losses at Osgiliath and at the Ramad Echor and during the charge of Imrahil, so if they might have had around 20k, then the army under Faramir was at the very least 2000 strong, but there was also the army of Minas Morgul to reckon with, which was larger than the army of Harad, if it was 40k it would have a total of 60k orcs and Haradrim, then Faramir's army might have been as large as 6000 soldiers, without counting Minas Tirith.
A worthy effort to estimate the various forces! Thanks for sharing it.
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
During the Third Age, Gondor's military prowess eventually declined. The major difference was the Gondorian soldiers themselves: although the soldiers would have proudly fought to the last man, they were never as strong as the warriors of the past especially by the second half of the Third Age. After the Great Plague and the Kin-strife, which left Gondor very weakened, many Numenoreans of pure blood had perished during those troublesome times.
Indeed and Tolkien speaks of the importance of bloodlines and the fact as each age came to pass, magic was leaving the world and the Dunedain were becoming middle men
@@alanmike6883 Eldacar was only half Numenorien yet he served as a greater king than Castamir ever would.
@@LucidWanderer
True and he was.
Just saying that the above was important but it didn't guarantee someone would be good or bad like the example you made with castamir.
But the Dunedains fate was always decline.
Part because the destruction of numenor.
Wars, plagues, winters, civil strife. Also part of living in Middle earth as the gifts of the valar were slowly withdrawn as they Dunedain were being adjusted to existence of middle earth
Did he forget to mention Lebennin/Pelargir. This was among the bigger cities and probably had a force larger than Dol Amroth
Keep up the good work! I love these videos
Thank you 😊
@@TheBrokenSword big fan, I listen to these a lot to unwind. Thank you(:
Tabletop gaming is very much in my wheelhouse, thank you for mentioning your other channel. I'm sure I'll enjoy it just as much as the lore videos.
Thanks a lot 😁
I think you made a pretty accurate guess. There's another passage that could be used (not sure how). But when the Captains of the West discuss how many soldiers they could muster to march to the Black Gate, somebody says "I believe we can lead 7000 men, and still left the city best guarded then before the Battle" or something like that. We know the Rohirrim were about 6000 strong, and many unhorsed men were left behind, and the fiefdoms of the South were still sending men. But I would say that the forces of the City proper prior to the battle would be something around 3 and 4k indeed.
Yes please a video of Gondor’s army at its peek.
It's gotta be ATLEAST 30k because 3k reinforcements arrived at Minas Tirith before the battle and it was said they were expecting 10 times that.
Would love to see a special vid on Gondor's armies at their peak!
This was a very very interesting video! Pls do more videos like this, more videos about military tactics, military movements...I love that kind of videos.
My pick would probbably be Knight of Dol Amroth or Ithillien Ranger, but If they are included then I pick one of Halbarads Rangers that came to help Aragorn!
As always great video Jaks, do more these when you find time!
great vid and im looking forward to more from the Table Top Alliance!!!
Thanks so much! 😁
Cool vid, thank you
In the war of the Ring there are listed 7900 as reinforcements of Minas Tirith. If we add various garrisons and militias around 30000-35000. Of various qualities being maybe 10000-15000 professional. I imagine that even if not mention the city would have a kind of citizen militia.
About the rest I imagine that including sailors and other forces protecting Gondord coast the numbers would be doubled.
Congratulations on hitting 170k you guys!
Honestly I'd say Gondor at its weakest, if pulled upon its full force against Mordor instead of using their armies sparingly, probably topped around 50,000. A third of the total force that Mordor amassed against Minas Tirith (180,000) and barely able to fight the full might of Mordor (300,000-500,000 strong). Gondor and Rohan really needed divine intervention since militarily both were soundly beaten by Sauron and he knew that.
True, but Sauron relied on his numbers more than the skill of his fighters. So I think it's fair to say that a well trained soldier is atleast 1.5x per orc
I'd be with Rohan coming in to save the day
Here's a question...what was Sauron's goals at the end of the 3rd Age? We know he began as a worthy Maiar spirit concerned with Order & efficiency....But I can't see where this would lead him once there were No free people left anymore to Order!
Are you forgetting about the Southrons and the Easterlings? What about the Black Numenorians? All sworn to Sauron, but all also human. I think that Sauron was doing it for power. Whether it was power for his master Morgoth or for himself is up for debate.
And Another War of Wrath would happen the Valar yet again go back to middle earth and save the free peoples if they’re survivor..
You think Dol Amroth had more troops available then Minas Tirith?
Gondor’s population is 3.5 million with a military believed to have 20-40 thousand.
Rohan’s population is 500 thousand with a military of 12 thousand.
I wonder why you wouldnt concentrate your forces at minas tirith where they knew sauron would be hitting first
There is no use in fighting Brohirrim. "Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul!"
I'd protect the alarm torch that went to Rohan. It's important.
Tolkien inspired himself in the Roman Empire. Especially the East Roman empire probably Gondor Empire would be also inspired by the Bizantine theme army of the Bizantine reconquest.
I guess I would want to be with swan knights, they were an elite group of fighters
Being realistic I would want to be part of the guard on an upper level to increase the odds of my survival.
Build me an army worth of Gondor
Did Rohan send in thier full force to aid Minas Tirith? How many soldiers did they hold back?
Rohan sent barely half of its total strength, Théoden said that he could send some 10k horsemen to Gondor, but since he had to defend Rohan from attacks coming out of Mordor and Dol Guldur, he would send only 6k. Tolkien tells us that the total strength of Rohan during the year 2885 of the third age was 12k, but says that their strength grew far more than 12k up until Théoden's time
We can assume that after 130 years, the army of Rohan grew from 12k to some 20 or 25k in total
A soldier of dol Amroth
Long live the Anfalas!
Swan knights.
Probably only a few thousand given that Gondor is implied to be a failed state and medieval feudalism as it was didn't field very large militaries.
of course Aragon
I'd want to ride with theodan
I understand the curiosity of such human elements, but this is a mythology and human elements are not given much place in mythologies.
🤔
Video 124
No was no actual army, so....
More than 5