Really great stuff, my friend. I've had difficulty finding good information on axes and axemanship over the years even though it has always been a passion of mine. I've just found your channel and element4ace's channel and I'm really enjoying the knowledge and skills that you gentlemen bring to the subject. Thanks so much for sharing it with us!
I Love your last tip. I never thought of it but it is the same basic idea as cutting out housing dado with a chisel. I am planning on building a timber frame home in the next few years and may try and use your technique on some of the joints. It would be a lot faster then cutting them out with a saw and chisel. I need to work on my accuracy though. Keep up the great work. I love your videos.
It's like throwing a fast pitch or a long pass or a hard punch: it starts at your feet, and most of the power comes from your legs and torso. Your arms and hands should be used more for control.
Great video Ben. The difference in penetration and length of cut is impressive between the middle and the heel. It seems like it changes the cutting motion into more of a shearing/slicing action as the rest of the heads weight pulls and rotates it into the cut. The slice starts much further up than where the axe comes to rest by a good inch or two!
Ben, I don't know how you don't have way way more subs, you and Owen both. Moreover, that you are willing to take the time to respond to comments is awesome. I have a question, more like an extension of a previous question; when carrying more than one 28"+ axe, how is that done? That is to say, on the trails, there are several areas that I require both hands to 'climb' and thus can't simply carry the two axes. I also don't carry a large pack. I have begun taking two axes -- a limber and a feller, and sometimes a third forest ax (mainly as a backup). How would you suggest I carry them? Also, I am not suspended above the ground at any point and thus can't really dangle the axes from me suspended by rope as one would do when climbing a tree lest they hit the rocks on the ground. Thank you!
Interesting stuff as always. There is still quite a lot of "arm" involved in that upcut felling swing. 8:12 Unless you define using the arms as just using the elbows and wrists. You're twisting your spine and especially rolling the shoulders into the swing to get the final momentum. That final movement of the arms forward has everything to do with the effectiveness of the cut. Up until that point, momentum is not very high. The hips start, but the torso practically stops moving and the arms finish the momentum. If you didn't do that it would be very ineffectual. I'm glad you didn't use the boxing analogy as I think it's a poor one for chopping. If we assume that the work is almost all done by the time the axe hits, we are really only concerned with gaining momentum up until that point. It looks more like the hips and legs are setting up the initial momentum, which is quite a bit of the work, and the final snap has more to do with movement further and further up the body. That staged building of momentum phenomenon is observable in all chopping. The initial momentum takes more time to build, but once it gets going, the last snap of momentum can happen in a much shorter period of time and space. I think you'd have to do a slo mo study to see it better, but it almost looks like you are going through three stages, hips/legs - torso - arms Not that they don't blend together or that it's entirely sequential, but roughly it looks that way. There are also two possible goals which could also overlap, hit hard to cut deep and overall energy efficiency and work sustainability. The later is a lot harder to study. Comparing timbersports to forestry work is like comparing a marathon to a sprinting race. Both require physical efficiency of a type to be effective, but technique may not translate back and forth to the goals of time v.s. distance. A lot of conversations about axe technique and theory don't take energy expenditure into account, as if physics is independent of energy input. Given the complex system that a body is with so many moving parts and putting emphasis on work done with this part, v.s.that part of the body, it's pretty hard to know or prove a lot regarding energy efficiency and what's best technique for any one person. I'll have to pay more attention to how I do my bottom cuts and play with that approach. As an older, stiff person, work that uses a whole body approach with a lot of joint articulation doesn't always work awesome for me. I see young people splitting wood with a lot of whole body movement, while I noticed I tend to move less and optimize efficiency within a narrower range of motion.
Yeah I wouldn't say timbersports is the best way to chop for endurance but there is a lot of value in being able to hit hard, particularly when felling knotty trees i have found being able to put a few powerful blows in can tear out the chip better than several lighter blows. Really its a lot of personal preference but I thought I would put it out there for people to try and perhaps adapt to what works for them. Particularly using the heel costs nothing as far as energy but can double chopping efficiency, but I havent seen any sources outside of timbersports talk about it. Perhaps a lot of professional loggers did it without really thinking, or it was something that was talked about but nobody bothered to write down.
@@benscottwoodchopper great tip about the heel when I'm making a dowel or roughing down a billet to make a handle or somthing I like to hit with the heel first it seems to cut better just something I discovered by myself
2000+ now. Really surprised that it is only 2k given the quality of the info on this channel Ben. I guess most folks just like smoke and mirrors instead of actual good information.
I wonder if it's more efficient to "square off" a log after it is cut to length, rather than trying to make 90deg cuts while it's still on the trunk. I've seen a vid on a reenactment of harvesting a large beam for a church steeple, and they squared off after felling the tree (followed of course by a lot of hewing).
I found your information on your chopping technique really interesting.I just wanted to ask about when you were standing on the trunk with the basque axe.I noticed that the axe had a shortish handle.My question is how does your back cope with being stooped over at quite an angle?.
This handle at 65cm is just a little too short, but it is still okay to chop with. Because my feet and entire body line up with the swing of the axe this helps comfort a lot. When you start twisting your back and chopping then I think that causes more issues.
Great video thanks ! Love the heel technique totally didn’t expect those results! Must practice accuracy and not Hafting axes for the rest of my life 🤣 thanks
Ben Scott thanks yes totally understand and agree I must practice that ! As you explained the biggest problem is people assume to get maximum power you must swing over the shoulder but it’s accuracy that wins the race over power (accuracy and technique) Am I making sense I know what I am trying to say and hoping you understand If you were hitting a golf ball you would be told try not to kill the ball but keep your eye on it and swing smoothly Thanks again and great information 💪🌲👍
I haven't got enough time to see all the video Ben, but by now I can tell you use the axe better than you explain it. Note I think you explain it correctly. What you lack to end the cut correctly is to make the natural movement of tilting out (or pivoting, I don't know the correct English term) the handle more evident. You present the heel and when it bits rotate (tilt orpivot) the head to end presenting the middle of the bit to the wood. This makes the axe get stuck less times and with less strenght
Thanks Jon! I still have a lot to learn myself but I thought it was worth putting out there because not many people even are aware that such technique exists
@@benscottwoodchopper I haven't understood correctly all what you have said but there's nothing bad in you I love what you are doing, that's why I try to help you. About Basque woodcutting technique, forget Timbesports leg movements. Axe has to go up the head at the beginning of the cut, keep arms extended and legs straight, you are looking for efficiency not power. Once you have ended the cut (at the end of pivoting) is when you flex your knees to lift the axe as you have perfectly explained. Once you go deep in the cut and the axe sinks less you start lifting the axe less, just the amount it needs to get intothe wood. You don't want to spend energy which will not get translated into work, as allways we are looking for efficiency. At this point is the moment youchange the axe. Basques use two axes, the exterior one the heaviest one (more or less 2,4 to 2,6Kg) to go deep fast. Once it starts sinking less you change to a smaller axe, more or less 2 to 2,4Kg . Yes, the smaller axe has less potential energy, but at this moment we are not asking full performance to the axe. At this moment a good axeman will not feel much lose of performance but he will tire significantly less. Efficiency again. Once you end the cut you start the new cut with the outside axe again. This is the norm, obviously there are some woods or competing moments you will change the way you use the axe. Like when you are at the last log competing very tight and you still have some spare strengh and you don't change the big axe in order to gain a pair of blows in each cut. You see, we are peculiar but there are reasons why we work as we do. Ben, do not hesitate to ask for anything, I'll answer what I know or I'll ask for it. I prefer to have public conversations as we use to have to make actual or future people to be able to learn from them. Have a good day!
The undercut face glance nearly cut my face twice, really didnt have the skill to use my axe in such a way i am getting better but still need a lot of practice
The video I’ve been waiting for, so good. Clever way of driving home points with action and application.
I love standing cut explanations, there are few of them in internet
Really great stuff, my friend. I've had difficulty finding good information on axes and axemanship over the years even though it has always been a passion of mine. I've just found your channel and element4ace's channel and I'm really enjoying the knowledge and skills that you gentlemen bring to the subject. Thanks so much for sharing it with us!
I enjoyed is video. Very handy tips and it nice to look at some wet and damp woods. We are having one off the driest summers for ages down under.
Yeah seen on the news how bad it is, makes me apreciate the rain here more
That toe vs heel strike...learn something new everyday! Excellent video as always! Tree Reaping season about underway here in Illinois!
Some great advice thanks.
I Love your last tip. I never thought of it but it is the same basic idea as cutting out housing dado with a chisel. I am planning on building a timber frame home in the next few years and may try and use your technique on some of the joints. It would be a lot faster then cutting them out with a saw and chisel. I need to work on my accuracy though. Keep up the great work. I love your videos.
Hey Ben just came over from our Axe page. Thanks for sharing, sub’d👍🏻
No worries, feel free to ask any questions and I'll do my best
Just sub’d here off your reddit post. Thanks so much for posting this. Never knew how much more efficient the heel was than the middle of the blade.
It's something I only found out because I started competing in timbersports. Best place to learn all the in depth nerdy technical stuff
It's like throwing a fast pitch or a long pass or a hard punch: it starts at your feet, and most of the power comes from your legs and torso. Your arms and hands should be used more for control.
might be your best video yet
No u
Great video Ben. The difference in penetration and length of cut is impressive between the middle and the heel. It seems like it changes the cutting motion into more of a shearing/slicing action as the rest of the heads weight pulls and rotates it into the cut. The slice starts much further up than where the axe comes to rest by a good inch or two!
For sure, its an incredible difference. Proper axe presentation has a lot to do with how timbersports axemen can cut so fast, not just the equipment
@@benscottwoodchopper what pants are these your wearing
@@Apalm12 they are from dickies, they dont make them anymore
Ben, I don't know how you don't have way way more subs, you and Owen both. Moreover, that you are willing to take the time to respond to comments is awesome. I have a question, more like an extension of a previous question; when carrying more than one 28"+ axe, how is that done? That is to say, on the trails, there are several areas that I require both hands to 'climb' and thus can't simply carry the two axes. I also don't carry a large pack. I have begun taking two axes -- a limber and a feller, and sometimes a third forest ax (mainly as a backup). How would you suggest I carry them? Also, I am not suspended above the ground at any point and thus can't really dangle the axes from me suspended by rope as one would do when climbing a tree lest they hit the rocks on the ground. Thank you!
Maybe make a sheath with some sort of sling or sew on attachment points on the oitside of your pack
Thanks for making this Ben!
Interesting stuff as always. There is still quite a lot of "arm" involved in that upcut felling swing. 8:12 Unless you define using the arms as just using the elbows and wrists. You're twisting your spine and especially rolling the shoulders into the swing to get the final momentum. That final movement of the arms forward has everything to do with the effectiveness of the cut. Up until that point, momentum is not very high. The hips start, but the torso practically stops moving and the arms finish the momentum. If you didn't do that it would be very ineffectual. I'm glad you didn't use the boxing analogy as I think it's a poor one for chopping. If we assume that the work is almost all done by the time the axe hits, we are really only concerned with gaining momentum up until that point. It looks more like the hips and legs are setting up the initial momentum, which is quite a bit of the work, and the final snap has more to do with movement further and further up the body. That staged building of momentum phenomenon is observable in all chopping. The initial momentum takes more time to build, but once it gets going, the last snap of momentum can happen in a much shorter period of time and space. I think you'd have to do a slo mo study to see it better, but it almost looks like you are going through three stages, hips/legs - torso - arms Not that they don't blend together or that it's entirely sequential, but roughly it looks that way. There are also two possible goals which could also overlap, hit hard to cut deep and overall energy efficiency and work sustainability. The later is a lot harder to study. Comparing timbersports to forestry work is like comparing a marathon to a sprinting race. Both require physical efficiency of a type to be effective, but technique may not translate back and forth to the goals of time v.s. distance. A lot of conversations about axe technique and theory don't take energy expenditure into account, as if physics is independent of energy input. Given the complex system that a body is with so many moving parts and putting emphasis on work done with this part, v.s.that part of the body, it's pretty hard to know or prove a lot regarding energy efficiency and what's best technique for any one person. I'll have to pay more attention to how I do my bottom cuts and play with that approach. As an older, stiff person, work that uses a whole body approach with a lot of joint articulation doesn't always work awesome for me. I see young people splitting wood with a lot of whole body movement, while I noticed I tend to move less and optimize efficiency within a narrower range of motion.
Yeah I wouldn't say timbersports is the best way to chop for endurance but there is a lot of value in being able to hit hard, particularly when felling knotty trees i have found being able to put a few powerful blows in can tear out the chip better than several lighter blows. Really its a lot of personal preference but I thought I would put it out there for people to try and perhaps adapt to what works for them. Particularly using the heel costs nothing as far as energy but can double chopping efficiency, but I havent seen any sources outside of timbersports talk about it. Perhaps a lot of professional loggers did it without really thinking, or it was something that was talked about but nobody bothered to write down.
@@benscottwoodchopper great tip about the heel when I'm making a dowel or roughing down a billet to make a handle or somthing I like to hit with the heel first it seems to cut better just something I discovered by myself
Awesome video!
Well done on the 1000 subs.
2000+ now. Really surprised that it is only 2k given the quality of the info on this channel Ben. I guess most folks just like smoke and mirrors instead of actual good information.
I wonder if it's more efficient to "square off" a log after it is cut to length, rather than trying to make 90deg cuts while it's still on the trunk. I've seen a vid on a reenactment of harvesting a large beam for a church steeple, and they squared off after felling the tree (followed of course by a lot of hewing).
Yes it definetly would be
I found your information on your chopping technique really interesting.I just wanted to ask about when you were standing on the trunk with the basque axe.I noticed that the axe had a shortish handle.My question is how does your back cope with being stooped over at quite an angle?.
This handle at 65cm is just a little too short, but it is still okay to chop with. Because my feet and entire body line up with the swing of the axe this helps comfort a lot. When you start twisting your back and chopping then I think that causes more issues.
Great video thanks ! Love the heel technique totally didn’t expect those results! Must practice accuracy and not Hafting axes for the rest of my life 🤣 thanks
Accuracy is pretty easy if you swing the axe down the middle of your body
Ben Scott thanks yes totally understand and agree I must practice that ! As you explained the biggest problem is people assume to get maximum power you must swing over the shoulder but it’s accuracy that wins the race over power (accuracy and technique)
Am I making sense I know what I am trying to say and hoping you understand
If you were hitting a golf ball you would be told try not to kill the ball but keep your eye on it and swing smoothly
Thanks again and great information 💪🌲👍
Really good video pal.
Does it have a 4 inch cutting surface
Nice demos, guy. Have you read the Peter McLaren manual? I'm guessing you have
Aye it is excellent
I love all that stuff but I brought it up because of the square ended cut, or "double box cut" - I've not seen it anywhere else.
@@rogerharvey9863 theres a guy called onsek on here, does some really amaing cuts
@@benscottwoodchopper cheers, I'll check it out 👍 good luck with uni btw
@@rogerharvey9863 I second Onsek
Heel cutting - Slicing vs chopping effect ?
Yes i think it allows the edge to slice the wood fibres better
I haven't got enough time to see all the video Ben, but by now I can tell you use the axe better than you explain it. Note I think you explain it correctly.
What you lack to end the cut correctly is to make the natural movement of tilting out (or pivoting, I don't know the correct English term) the handle more evident. You present the heel and when it bits rotate (tilt orpivot) the head to end presenting the middle of the bit to the wood. This makes the axe get stuck less times and with less strenght
Thanks Jon! I still have a lot to learn myself but I thought it was worth putting out there because not many people even are aware that such technique exists
@@benscottwoodchopper I haven't understood correctly all what you have said but there's nothing bad in you I love what you are doing, that's why I try to help you.
About Basque woodcutting technique, forget Timbesports leg movements. Axe has to go up the head at the beginning of the cut, keep arms extended and legs straight, you are looking for efficiency not power. Once you have ended the cut (at the end of pivoting) is when you flex your knees to lift the axe as you have perfectly explained.
Once you go deep in the cut and the axe sinks less you start lifting the axe less, just the amount it needs to get intothe wood. You don't want to spend energy which will not get translated into work, as allways we are looking for efficiency. At this point is the moment youchange the axe. Basques use two axes, the exterior one the heaviest one (more or less 2,4 to 2,6Kg) to go deep fast. Once it starts sinking less you change to a smaller axe, more or less 2 to 2,4Kg . Yes, the smaller axe has less potential energy, but at this moment we are not asking full performance to the axe. At this moment a good axeman will not feel much lose of performance but he will tire significantly less. Efficiency again. Once you end the cut you start the new cut with the outside axe again.
This is the norm, obviously there are some woods or competing moments you will change the way you use the axe. Like when you are at the last log competing very tight and you still have some spare strengh and you don't change the big axe in order to gain a pair of blows in each cut.
You see, we are peculiar but there are reasons why we work as we do. Ben, do not hesitate to ask for anything, I'll answer what I know or I'll ask for it. I prefer to have public conversations as we use to have to make actual or future people to be able to learn from them.
Have a good day!
What is the model of the second axe you are using
www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/pt/-hultafors-chopping-axe-1500-gram-hy-10-1-5-sv.htm
The undercut face glance nearly cut my face twice, really didnt have the skill to use my axe in such a way i am getting better but still need a lot of practice
Aye I think it is best avoided and unless you are thinking of getting into competition there is no real reason to use or practice it.
What’s the first axe you’re using Ben?
Basque 1.5kg
Thanks very much Ben
What pants are you wearing?
www.dickiesworkwear.com/uk/dickies-everyday-workwear-trouser-ed247
Damn, Ben got booty.
I'm interested in the chain mail. Have you made a video going over it?
Standing on a log is only dangerous if you don’t know what you’re doing. Just like using an axe at all. Or driving a car.
Hi Ben, what axe are you swinging there???