Finally, I've found a sound man who sees sound like a musician on stage! I had no idea you were the guy responsible for so many advancements in live sound, Dave. Thanks so much!
Dave, what I really love about you is that, whatever people might write on the internet about you or about the concepts you develop, you keep sharing the knowledge you've accumulated by experience and experimentations with those who still want to learn something new. I really appreciate that spirit and I wanted to thank you for that 🤟
I chuckled when I watched this... I discovered this concept in the early/mid 1990s when I was working at a TV/radio broadcast group. As we expanded, so did my workload. We started receiving more and more remote / satellite feeds. To manage the train wreck I popped a small cheap mixer and two cheap speakers in there and started panning sources. I could now monitor 4x the sources by panning and still make out each source. Eventually we added more speakers to give us more point-sources of audio for clarity. Monitoring 10-16 sources simultaneously was entirely possible with this approach. Interestingly, now in aviation they're starting to do this, with some audio panels automatically panning sources when they detect multiple simultaneous communications.
I remember when I first heard you describe these concepts about a dozen years ago. You were a feature speaker at a sound engineers conference at wachusett mountain in MA. I was blown away. They were such simple concepts but so profound and transformative when applied. A few years after I was doing a national touring act at a college and the lead singer just wasn't getting enough vocals in his monitor. I remembered your talk, grabbed another monitor and gave him a second mix with just his vocal in it. It completely solved the problem quickly and easily. I never could quite justify the expense of the micro wedges for my small sound company, however having the knowledge of why they were designed has been invaluable to me over the years. Even when I went to buy powered monitors I used your method of just running an sm58 with a flat eq and seeing which one got loudest before feeding back. Ending up discovering that a cheaper model actually sounded better and gave more gain before feedback than others I was looking at. Really, really appreciate you man. You've been a huge influence and help with my life as a sound human❤️
You reinvented the wheel here, Grateful Dead did the same thing with their wall of sound. Every istrument had their dedicated line of speakers for maximum clarity.
Back in the 80s when touring with black flag with a pa I designed, we setup a show like the gratefull dead wall of sound. Ran each instrument separate and such, put the pa behind the band. While interesting, what I learned was the huge flaws. Putting the pa behind the band was a terrible idea as the sound of the pa got into all the mics. Even with dual polarity reversed mics, the sound was greatly deteriorated. Plus putting the pa farther from the audience was not ideal. Also, for a modern show, using all that space behind the band is an impractical use of critical visual space for set design and video. All instruments are separate to begin with, not combining them is obviously better than combining them. The innovation and cool aspects are to come up with realistic, practical and usable ways to implement and deploy this fundental concept.
I’ve actually started changing my stage mix philosophy on smaller stages in order to reduce some of the monitor mix issues. Ive allowed the bass and guitar players to keep amp volume up a little bit to allow the vocals, and other DI sources to be reinforced in the wedge mixes. By no means ideal but on smaller stages and with limited resources it has helped. So much trial & error, experimentation and so little time…
I find letting the FOH subs carry the low end back on stage and cutting lows on monitors really helps keep the monitor clear and powerful as well. Plexi in front of guitar amps keeps stage volume up, but doesn't laser whoever happens to sit in a line from that amp
On small stages i'm asking musicians what they can't hear and then put them this in monitors, it helps to reduce stage noise and more clean mix, on bigger stages is different.
25 years of setting up sound systems and mixing music... and still learning new things with this channel. Once again, thank you, Dave, for sharing concepts that are so easy to set up, and so efficient in improving sound quality ! Great concept, great video... as usual ;)
This is freakin awesome.For gear nerds and sound nerds like us ,it is just the gift of sharing that makes this so good.Thank you so much for all the insight and everything.For me,I live for this stuff,I could rant for Days.But if Dave was not sharing this where would I get it,with all the experience,I have been playing with speakers and sound since I was a kid.I wish I had realized my passion then, The information being received is so valuable Its indescribable.Think of all the hours of testing and touring to learn it all,and Dave is giving it to us, Thanx again Dave,can`t say it enough.
If it’s good enough for Elton John, it’s good enough for most people. Remember surround sound systems have been doing this concept for quite some time and in the live world with being arrogant and not understanding this. Hey Dave, keep up the good work. Appreciate your brother.
The distributed mix was what we used with Stevie Ray Vaughn’s ‘live alive’ 😅tour. For Stevie, we had three 15”2” monitors. the middle was for Stevie’s vocal. The two outside wedges gave him a stereo guitar mix. The rest of Stevie’s band mix was via the side fills. Drum mix was two 15”2” wedges plus a dual 18” sub behind for all of the kick you could want. The last two mixes were provided by two more 15”2” wedges Happy band….incredible show every nite.
When's the Dave Rat Netflix Special? I would absolutely binge these videos Dave! Thanx brother for putting this all out for us. Always, ALWAYS gets us thinking. Keep'm coming!
Dave, I love learning the science behind sound, it is so fascinating. You are a huge inspiration to my career when I'm out mixing FOH or monitors. PS, please put those mini-micro wedges into production regardless if they work, I love looking at them and would love to buy a couple haha.
Let me just say, as “most” others do. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and the way you explain it!!! I’ve been following you for years. I haven’t had any formal training in”FOH”. So your “think about this” way of explaining things has been invaluable!! It actually helped me design speakers(3-way tri-amped) for my band(local).
very cool to see the behind the scenes on how one idea becomes another and another. Really drives home Dave wanting us to understand the concept more than just the application.
I function much better if I understand the concept and fundamentals too because then it's not so abstract. I'll give you a perfect example, I was driving a tractor for some money when I was like 19 and it had GPS auto steer so it had the perfect amount of overlap and was nice and straight, and the guy was showing me how to get it going and he's like, "Ok so you press this, then this, then this, and then that, see?" And I was like wait a second, what did that first button do? And then we went through what each step did exactly, then it was much easier for me to understand.
Thanks, Dave It would be great to go to concert and hear a double hung pa so many vocals lost in the mix. Next time I do a live show going to run extra vocal monitor for the stage mix you rock!
I have been using something similar in my rigs, when and where it is appropriate, with fairly reasonable success. You have inspired me to perhaps apply this theory more rigorously and see if there is an appreciable benefit in the results as a result. Thanks for sharing your ideas and explaining where you developed them from. You are a true pioneer in many of these areas and I appreciate your willingness to share them vs being a bay humbug and locking them away in your head as proprietary, etc. In this industry I have encountered more than a few of the later types, sadly. Again, thanks, Dave. - Eric in NorCal.
Dave, thanks for "inventing" this concept. It makes sense to me, and probably explains why I had success in the early seventies with what I did with my band's PA. We were mostly in the analog age, but some of our venues required a little more than what most of our contemporaries used. The Kustom and Shure systems of that time were pretty good for most smaller clubs and similarly sized venues, but if the room was larger or we were outdoors, they just didn't have enough power/clarity when cranked up in those situations. LInear arrays and subs did not exist then. We had a Sunn digital console, and took the analog signal through active and passive crossovers and tri-amped the mains with 15's, 12's, and then large horns with piezo tweeter arrays on top of them, with double the power to the 15's. Amazing difference in clarity. And, we ran two stage monitor feeds, one for the vocals, and one for the instrument input, along with "side" monitors that were bi-amped with only passive crossovers. This gave us clarity in the vocal monitors, and still could bring up the instruments' when needed. I decided on doing this with our PA only because hi-fi enthusiasts were bi-amping and tri-amping their home systems to theoretically increase power on the bottom and maintaining clarity in the upper ranges. You came to your solution from a different direction, but your solution seems to be the optimum when one has access to today's equipment. I bet those bands never had had the clarity your ideas gave them. Just genius on your part!!
This is the first time I’ve heard of this concept! This makes so much sense. I’ve experienced the same thing with my IEM’s when using a mono mix compared to stereo. My mono mix requires “more me” and careful eq while my panned stereo mix requires little eq and almost zero boost of my vocals and keys. This works for me but other performers I’ve worked with find no advantage to stereo iem’s or simply prefer wedges. I look forward to trying this micro monitor concept in the future. Thanks for this excellent and useful video.
I have recently bought 4 mw 12's, ran by powersoft T604, and I have used this setup as You have reccomended in the manual, and the results are great. My lead vocal is very happy with the control she has on stage
Awesome! Which presets are ya using? They may be the same as the ones in the powersoft amp, but to be sure, the best presets are the ones I put up on daverat.com Maybe in the amp ar the "R" version or Rat version
hello dave, i cant thank you enough for the amount of honest study material you make available to the world, so i'll leave that there. My query (since i currently have no way of testing any such thing, otherwise i wouldnt ask) is whether you have noticed different patterns of feedback behavior using an uncorrelated PA (forgive my generalization it's for the sake of brevity)
Hmmm, several sources recreating differing decorrelated versions of the same; instrument should be a bit more feedback stable for the same percieve volume level than the same signal radiated from several sources This would be due to less summations and cancellation om's on the coverage area. The feedback would be triggered by the summations
I have done similar things when trying to get the most out of very small PA systems, like ones that are probably a bit to small for what might really be needed for a metal project that uses drum tracks. The PA was just essentially some small powered bins, 400 watts each, a 15" and a horn. I gave the drum tracks their own system and also the vocals as well. And yes, it definitely punched above it's weight as you could get clear vox while maybe the "drum speakers" were being pushed a bit.
Yep. I remember being bored once because the band coming through my venue had their own IEM rig. I ended up putting the otherwise unused monitor console in LCR mode and doing my own little private mix. The clarity of that mix vs flipping the console back to stereo was, well maybe not night & day, but it was _easily_ a noticeable improvement.
This is very useful information. I’ve since moved to a silent stage/in-ear mode of operation, but should an artist have difficulty with their ear pieces it would be comforting to have this kind of monitoring setup should they need to pull their ear piece out and they could still be able to hear their performance clearly. But even with developing my in-ear monitoring, it took me a while to learn how much more clarity the source signals had when you could break them up into stereo group sends to be adjusted to taste on the cue mix rather than forcing everything down the same signal path where everything just got mashed up into one indistinguishable mass of harshness that just fatigues ears and brains just a few songs in.
My goal for small venues has always been to try and get the sound to sound like it's coming directly from the instrument to my ears. Or directly from the speaker to my ears. I first thought of this when I heard a professor speaking from a lectern with a speaker in the base. I was sitting back a little ways, but the sound was coming from him, not overhead speakers. with some simple panning and better placement of main speakers, I have been able to get a pretty good simulation of that effect for a 200 seat sanctuary. Getting that from instruments is another beast I am still working on. I'd love to have speakers at the Keyboard, Piano, and strings where the sound emanates from that physical location rather than from the mains. That would cause some issues with vocal mics for sure.
The double hung PA seems really interesting. I was recently at a show with the normal sort of line array and the intermodulation between guitars, bass, drums, and vocals made the vocal almost unintelligible. It sounds like this new setup is kind of like getting a bit of the “Wall of Sound” separation, and to me that seems that clarity could be improved a lot. I would go to more concerts if the sound was actually better. Also for monitors, I’ve always enjoyed playing on stages when stereo or multiple monitors are available. While playing bass (I play upright usually) with the luxury of two monitor mixes, i like to do something like lots of snare and some kick in one speaker, rhythm guitar in the other, and a bit of everything else spread out, and I’ll hear my bass from my amp. I feel it far easier to sort out the groove/timing that way, and sometimes that can be a bit tricky with the LF delay you tend to hear from the larger sub arrays coming back on stage. The added separation makes me go from struggling to hear the groove to just getting into it and playing. Now I want to get another few monitors for my PA and run them this way too. Thanks for the very clear explanation as to why it works.
Man those little wedges are cool. I teach live & studio sound at college level and Acoustics at university level in the UK. Some little boxes like those you have would be incredible for demonstrations.
Great stuff as always, Dave. I love this thought process, thinking about how we perceive sounds in nature. Definitely thinking outside the box, no pun intended. 😄 Man, thank you so much for your videos! 🤘🏼
This was really good Dave, I think I had a good understanding of your thoughts on this stuff already, but this was very interesting. BTW those little micro wedges and just too cute, ummm cool, and I need a STL :)
That's funny. I thought about a multiple speaker mains system about 30 years ago. All for the same reasons that you mentioned. Line arrays came out and threw it out the window. Engineers want line arrays these days. I'm still a point source guy. Great videos. Thanks.
Proper tool for the job is an important strategy. A line array is a bunch of point sources vertically oriented. A true point source system would be a single coaxial or triaxial driver which often is insufficient to cover medium to large spaces. What people refer to as point source systems are often a bunch of speakers oriented in horizontal and vertical arrays.
@@DaveRat I don't know... 4 Danley J1's per side would be a pretty badass PA lol. Each cab per side would carry what you want in it. 1 for voc, 1 for drums etc. It would be incredibly clean.
Point sources (non arrayable designs) are wonderful and excellent for many applications. The challenge with point source enclosures that are actually point sources is they can not be arrayed and still be point sources. That said, multiple point sources, each with differing input signals would not be an array and would be quite effective for covering spaces as long as the coverage needed can be covered by any single box
This explains why perfect mixes rarely last long. Not everyone can hear the noise either. It drives me nuts. Even when I am simply doing karaoke shows, I have to have an EQ on every source and for the room, have to have subs in some form, and sometimes the room serves as a backup as well. I'll change orientation of the drivers on the fly to bounce off the walls a bit differently to cancel out the noise. Good powerful sound is coming in smaller packages these days, so adding a "2nd PA " of some sort, might actually be in the cards for all the different types of gigs I do or plan to do.
It all comes together... Question: where can I find replacement xovers for Radian Apex 1200 mons? They just keep frying! And, as always, thanks so much for all you do -- you da man!
With my bar band, I run 4 monitor mixes, one for each guy. I use JBL Eon 610s and in monitor EQ mode they cut a lot of low mids and lows so it sounds kind of thin. Until the subs are on in FOH and the bass amp is running. Since bass is so omnidirectional, the low end in the subs is all you need and you get a ton more clarity and power headroom in the monitors with the low end out of them. It works pretty well for us, we're also pretty reasonable guys, no prima donnas that need more 2k on the second guitar amp kinda guys.
2x15 + 1x10 + HF of '80s top spec pro audio drivers is seriously loud for a monitor. Seriously. Totally agree about de-correlation and clarity being required, rather than just "more loud". It should be loud enough. It is clear using backline in the rehearsal room - discrete sources - the ear's phased barometric pressure sensing array can decode the localisation information as inherent to the source, and distortion, reverb & comb filter are authentic and helpful, rather than audible as a distortion artefact. With phase distortion, directivity distortion, and intermodulation distortion being accentuated as the "veil" and generating localisation information that highlights the distortion, the distorted sound of a Marshall cabinet and the sound of heavy metal is a sound aesthetic which is essential to modern music. I actually put my stereo or "converged" mix through a distortion channel strip and bandpass filter to find out what happens when the music saturates per band - a really good mix considers saturation and balance - that's the art of tone. As a guitar player, a fine distortion characteristic and "glue" is a desirable thing, rather than something to avoid. For sound reinforcement per source I tend to basically make a three or four way discrimination per source - "spotlight/lead", "converged" backing/rhythm, "bassiline" kick/sub, and reverb - generally injecting a reverberant component is something to avoid *but* for classical music and opera this is required to suitably amplify sources. Classical music sound reinforcement is an advanced technical art form, and the multi-output "room control" models are becoming capable of active noise control and being able to tune, remove or add room modes to taste. Once you start putting bending wave motors into all the surfaces and putting a microphone array & sensors into everything, and creating a truly "networked" sound reinforcement system, the sophisticated tricks used in phased array RADAR systems and industrial measurement acoustics can be used. One of the ranges of devices I am working on is an active acoustic treatment + reinforcement system which also functions as an architectural surface & visual display. It's flat but it isn't thin like a film or a paint... yet... ... but it in theory totally could be ... it would be expensive paint per square inch done with current tech ... My panel is under an inch thick as it stands, with an acoustic resolution of a few feet to a few inches square at a power density of 300W (getting up to kilowatts & megawatts industrial heater power is undesirable), and have come up with a unit which is fit for purpose for near field and mid field as well as reverberant information, and reinforcement use, but probably not fine enough for anechoic simulation / HF removing active noise cancellation. Bending wave reinforcement has a completely different feedback and distortion characteristic.
Awesome content as per usual! Since you are primarily an engineer and have developed the microwedge as well as lots of other systems I am curious if you have had any personal experience with Danley sound Labs designs and most specifically their SM80M wedge monitor. I enjoy the creativity and outside the box concepts of both their and your designs. Thanks!!! I second the miniature PA system manufacturing... Untapped market for sure!
I have compared the MicroWedge side by side to the SM80m. The Danley does sound good and is a solid design. Volume wise they are comparable, the MicroWedge goes lower and has a smaller footprint.
Well, a drum is a single source that makes many different sounds at once. Same with a waterfall or crashing waves. There are many different frequencies happening at the same time. But I get your point. Obviously breaking up the mix between many speakers would be nice. Sort of like a small club. The guitar comes from one amp and the drums come from the drums and the vocals come through the PA. Slightly bigger clubs have all those sources separated and included in the house mix. But you can still hear the drums and the amps from their original sources. The bigger the venue the more absurd it gets.
Yes complexity increases and yet so does our capabilities to deploy more complex systems. When you look at technology like the Holoplot where there are 64 amplifiers driving 64 speakers in a panel smaller than 4x3 feet and each amp and speaker can be individually processed, you may begin to realize that the tech to actually recreate sound closer to accurately already exists. It just has not been configured and applied While the Holoplot is a different concept based on beam forming rather than separation and accurate source recreation, all the tools we need are here now and beam forming is way way more complex.
@@DaveRat ah. Okay. Cool. See my other comment on your last video. It seems we’re on the same page accept you seem to know more about the current tech. We’re you referring to the software that can separate each instrument? It’s been around for decades and can only imagine how much better it is now. Hopefully easily tweaked and real time. Sound cards and interfaces should have between 4 and 24 outputs.
I love my Micro wedges. so nice of a foot print. and yes most festival I run interment one mix and vx on another at least on the front mixes. but also hi pass is my best friend when providing a good mix to each of the people on stage. got them and sold a bunch to churches and even a theater when radian was doing them. is there a big difference with the newer monitors
The EAW are much better. The cone surrounds don't crack, an issue I battled radian to solve, lighter, louder and I worked very hard on the processor settings. Both for biamp and passive settings. Also they have fly track and I improved the smoothness of the dispersion. And big improvements to the passive crossover.
I tried really hard to get my church i run sound for to do something like this in their new building. Unfortunately when you hire a company to put together fancy graphs with ridiculously priced speakers you lose. Churchs i think would be the place that would really benefit from running vocals through their own source, mainly because you are trying to have a big full sound while trying to keep volume low.
Maybe put a speaker or speaker above the instrument/singer. Mix only that individual source sound through the speaker. Maintain that distance and different reflections from each source. A cooler live experience I’m sure
Many musicians know whether sound is clear and they like it or blurry and they don't. Personally I don't go out of my way to explain unless they ask. I think a more useful question is to ask engineers whether the happiness of the musicians is more consistent with seperate sources than without. I recommend giving a try. I think you will find that it can be very useful for musicians that are ofelten unhappy with conventional setups
@@DaveRat Cool!! BTW, I tried the concept of panning the kick in and kick out mics in a metal mix I'm working on, and wow, I noticed a huge jump in clarity and punch that was missing and couldn't get with any plugin!!! thanks a lot
Hi Dave! If the gig has lots of amplifier channels but only two 2-way wedges (per singer) would you still send vocals to both of the singers ears and send LF instruments to only one ear?
Dave, now I want to know what you think about Dolby Atmos, because I think you just sold me on it! (I know that's now what this is about, but isn't Atmos kind of the same thing? It's playing different sounds through different speakers in a standardized and scalable way.)
Yes and no. Atmos is trying to simulate an environment with sounds coming from above and behind. And while that is cool and interesting especially for movies. My interest is in recreating a level of sonic realistic from a source or multiple sources in one area, say, in front of you. More like a better stereo or making your stereo sound like a live concert but not as loud
Been using some of these multi driver iem's. Makes a massive difference in clarity but again pipes it straight into your hole. And own sone beyers i like to mod. But wondering about multi driver over ears, remember some gaming company tried a while back but wasnt very succesful. Im not sure why, it seems ideal if the drivers are up to it. ..can you get the new style solenoid style linear drivers in high enough wattage i wonder
Very cool there is a difference though here. Multi driver in ears all reproduce the same signal or have a crossover. This design every speaker reproduces a different signal
Hahaha...it all make sense...the first time Ive experience a live band concert I thought that each instrument are miked and send to each dedicated speakers...then they all told me that its impossible and not realistic...I started mixing live gig way back 1999 with my garage band...funny but it seems my first idea was RIGHT! Lesson in life
This makes me think of 360° audio, and similar things it attempts to achieve with signal decorrelation. I’d love to hear your thoughts, musings, and opinions on Dolby Atmos or other spatial audio systems.
I've been to a Dolby Atmos demo in a Dolby studio. Using multiple speakers to simulate a surround environment is interesting and useful especially for things like movies. I personally am more interested in recreation than simulation. Recreating multiple sources such that the reproduction more closely parallels real world. Creating a sound source 5hat you can literally walk around it and almost not be able to hear a difference between reproduction and the original
I have thought that the positional audio that's being developed for home theater could be used to do something similar by putting different instruments on different speakers. This could probably both improve imaging and reduce distortion, and maybe even create some common ground between home theater fanatics and audiophiles...
Yes to some degree. I will post a vid on a functional version of what I envision. I believe we have the ability to recreate very realistic sonic reproduction that greatly exceeds what is currently available and it can be done with less expensive speakers resulting in more realistic sound
Over under for small diameter cable is best. Over over creates cable damaging coils. Cable reels are good but bulky and slow. Over under mixed with fig 8 for large diameter cables. The key is to make sure that when uncoiled there are no loops and when coiling the cable naturally sits flat
Awesome. So when DJ is mixing in the studio, for traditional stereo setup, the spatial information is reduced / limited to two sources, implying a singular sweetspot for the listener, which is unfavorable in public situations (well in the "sweetspot" we may expect to finad a spot for a sound engineer ;-) So when thinking about big events, Dj should all tracks / "instruments" keep separate, and then his role would be to mix them live for a given sound system, creating spatial effects by using separate sources for every track, in other words - PA as an instrument :-) And his place would be in the center of the field, most listeners would have him behind their backs...
Keeping them separate is step one. Next you need sound systems that also allow for all the separate or more than 2 separate inputs covering the listening area. And this would be awesome!
Actually I designed and patented the MicroWedge design and licenced to Radian. Then, I was not happy with the development of processor settings and relaibilty so when the contract ended, I I licenced the design to EAW and together took the product to the level I was seeking to reach. They do a great job and the EAW version is louder, more stable, and has more features and improved sound quality. When I ended the licensing deal with Radian, they built a similar product but could not use the trapezoidal shape as it infringed on my patent.
I have a small sound system...but all your saying make sense...Fuck those bashers!Thank you sir for making these videos!Ill make a shirt MAKE SENSE - dave rat!
Hmmm, probably best to replace just the fried parts. They should be marked with the values or look at a non fried one Parts express should have have the parts Let me know if you need more assist. And I will see what I can do. Maybe reach out on the channel members Telegram channel. Cool cool Todd
Cool cool, and if you have a tough time, I think I have a few parts from the MicroWedge crossover. If it's capacitors that are going bad, use higher voltage versions. If it's chokes, osually it's that they come loose, if chokes are over heating, then you can reposition and mount near the port by adding wires
Great video! Been wondering how you mix into the "two" systems? I have an x32 and I'm using 4 buss'. I basically leave sends on faders on the whole time and select the channel I want to adjust. As soon as I select a certain channel, the two buss faders that it's being sent to pop up on the buss faders. Adjusting them both at same time is how I mix. Is this how you would suggest running it or is there a different/better way? Also, I have drums and vocals in one stack and gtr and bass in the other. Is this how you split things up every time? Again, thanks for all you mad Rat you!!!
@@DaveRat Hey Dave, I looked for a video explaining how to mix the two PAs system and can't seem to find it... any chance you could send me a link to the video? Thanks!
Hmmm, maybe it was in one of the channel members zoom chats. I will ponder covering that. Also maybe search for double hung PA because I'm quite sure I covered that in my blog a while back
Dave what do you think about the electronic sound separation engines? Klang is doing something for IEM's. I wonder if it might produce interesting results with a stereo pair of wedges? Adamson has their new Fletcher Machine, Meyer Sound has stuff that does stuff with a bunch of speakers all over the room. D&B has something with speakers hung all over the room.
It's all about using the right tool for the job to achieve the desired result. And then double checking to make sure whatever we did actually is an improvement and any issues do not outweigh the gains. Each of the things you mention are designed for a goal and application. Things like immersive sound or advanced control to simulate source location If choosing between having sound come from separate sources vs simulating or trying to create the illusion of sound from separate sources, the simulations will will always be lacking, whether or not that matters for the application is a separate decision.
@@DaveRat Yeah. Sam Gamgee's dad said: "There's nothing like looking when you're trying to find something." Thanks for inspiring normies to have fun and just try things! Ah - everyone knows it. You inspire creative curiosity. Thank you.
I've not only heard Atmos, I have had a personal demo of Atmos given by Dolby. Impressive and also a differing concept than I am going after. Atmos is trying to simulate an environment and offers placement control. I am more interested in recreation than simulation
@@DaveRat "more interested in recreation than simulation" This morning I was mapping a sound effect to a 3D space for Atmos and automating its movement across the soundscape. Very much a simulation! Very well put Dave.
Hmmm, i see it more as a progression. The Dead had a huge cumbersome PA behind the band with significant coverage and scalability challenges, not to mention, no where to put the video screens. Which we all know is more important than sound. Solving those issues and pushing to new levels is not really an 'old is new' as much as progress and innovation.
So cool to hear the process from the designer rather than a 3rd persons perception of what and why things were done. Thanks Dave, you are single handedly breaking the current trends of how information is taught, and you make it fun by not acting like some rock star, rather a real person with a passion who just happens to have been there and done that. :)
Hey you said you play those wedges for different frequency so what frequency they play you sad vocal, guitar, snare what are the rest and at what frequency do each play that would sound good
I do it by sending different instruments to different speakers and all the speakers are full range. If you are dividing frequencies, that is different and is basically a crossover. So early on I was making speakers with more and more crossovers, then I started separating by instrument instead of by frequency
Not sure what you mean. When I say vocals I mean I take just the vocals and send those to a speaker and then I have a separate channel that has just the guitar and I send that to a different speaker and so on. Once the sounds have been all mixed together you can't do it
Oh ok I understand know I thought you use a stem splitter to split music then send to the speakers but I guess you can't take direct music then split it then send it to different speakers I guess it's impossible
@MyTgangsta Yes splitting it once it's been mixed is very tough. I have live recordings with the tracks that have not been combined together yet. This is mainly meant for live sound or recording people that have access to the original tracks before mixed together
Can you transfer this to subs? F.ex. stack 2x2 sub in front and 2x2 behinde in cardioide . Bottom subs under 50 Hz and upper subs over 50 Hz. Delay back subs about 40 and 60 Hz?
Due to the longer wavelengths, subs will tend to act like a single source when paced close to each other and any differences in signals will alter dispersion, summations and cancellations but not really be percieved as separate sources. Doing what you describe would mainly alter the dispersion and coverages at different frequencies.
I do understand the tendency to drift toward extremes. And also making things overly complex will inevitably result in diminishing returns. Overly simple like mono and stereo will offer the lackluster results we currently accept as the norm. And somewhere in between, more than stereo yet not a surround sound simulation, but rather an increase in sources, will get as greatly improved results with a moderate increase in complexity. I will do a demo vid at some point
Finally, I've found a sound man who sees sound like a musician on stage!
I had no idea you were the guy responsible for so many advancements in live sound, Dave. Thanks so much!
Cool cool thank you Patrick!
Dave, what I really love about you is that, whatever people might write on the internet about you or about the concepts you develop, you keep sharing the knowledge you've accumulated by experience and experimentations with those who still want to learn something new.
I really appreciate that spirit and I wanted to thank you for that 🤟
Ha! The people that get most upset are almost always the ones with the least knowledge and wisdom.
Yes, true.
@@DaveRat I've come to see that most of those people with opinions usually don't have any experience to back that opinion up
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I chuckled when I watched this... I discovered this concept in the early/mid 1990s when I was working at a TV/radio broadcast group. As we expanded, so did my workload. We started receiving more and more remote / satellite feeds. To manage the train wreck I popped a small cheap mixer and two cheap speakers in there and started panning sources. I could now monitor 4x the sources by panning and still make out each source. Eventually we added more speakers to give us more point-sources of audio for clarity. Monitoring 10-16 sources simultaneously was entirely possible with this approach.
Interestingly, now in aviation they're starting to do this, with some audio panels automatically panning sources when they detect multiple simultaneous communications.
Cool stuff!
I remember when I first heard you describe these concepts about a dozen years ago. You were a feature speaker at a sound engineers conference at wachusett mountain in MA. I was blown away. They were such simple concepts but so profound and transformative when applied.
A few years after I was doing a national touring act at a college and the lead singer just wasn't getting enough vocals in his monitor. I remembered your talk, grabbed another monitor and gave him a second mix with just his vocal in it.
It completely solved the problem quickly and easily.
I never could quite justify the expense of the micro wedges for my small sound company, however having the knowledge of why they were designed has been invaluable to me over the years.
Even when I went to buy powered monitors I used your method of just running an sm58 with a flat eq and seeing which one got loudest before feeding back. Ending up discovering that a cheaper model actually sounded better and gave more gain before feedback than others I was looking at.
Really, really appreciate you man. You've been a huge influence and help with my life as a sound human❤️
So cool djsparky!! Thank you and I remember that conference, we all stayed in the same hotel. Good times!!
You reinvented the wheel here, Grateful Dead did the same thing with their wall of sound. Every istrument had their dedicated line of speakers for maximum clarity.
Back in the 80s when touring with black flag with a pa I designed, we setup a show like the gratefull dead wall of sound.
Ran each instrument separate and such, put the pa behind the band. While interesting, what I learned was the huge flaws. Putting the pa behind the band was a terrible idea as the sound of the pa got into all the mics. Even with dual polarity reversed mics, the sound was greatly deteriorated. Plus putting the pa farther from the audience was not ideal. Also, for a modern show, using all that space behind the band is an impractical use of critical visual space for set design and video.
All instruments are separate to begin with, not combining them is obviously better than combining them.
The innovation and cool aspects are to come up with realistic, practical and usable ways to implement and deploy this fundental concept.
I’ve actually started changing my stage mix philosophy on smaller stages in order to reduce some of the monitor mix issues. Ive allowed the bass and guitar players to keep amp volume up a little bit to allow the vocals, and other DI sources to be reinforced in the wedge mixes. By no means ideal but on smaller stages and with limited resources it has helped. So much trial & error, experimentation and so little time…
I find letting the FOH subs carry the low end back on stage and cutting lows on monitors really helps keep the monitor clear and powerful as well. Plexi in front of guitar amps keeps stage volume up, but doesn't laser whoever happens to sit in a line from that amp
On small stages i'm asking musicians what they can't hear and then put them this in monitors, it helps to reduce stage noise and more clean mix, on bigger stages is different.
All good stuff
@@tomazklancnik7760 I like that philosophy too. 👍🏻
Fascinating design and "nowhere in nature" tutoring. Thank-you, Dave
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25 years of setting up sound systems and mixing music... and still learning new things with this channel.
Once again, thank you, Dave, for sharing concepts that are so easy to set up, and so efficient in improving sound quality !
Great concept, great video... as usual ;)
So cool thank you!!
Such a simple and OBVIOUS solution to a common problem... that never even occurred to me! Thanks Dave for making me think outside the box AGAIN!
Awesome and thank you!
Dave, I love the way you mind sound. Thank you !!!
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This is freakin awesome.For gear nerds and sound nerds like us ,it is just the gift of sharing that makes this so good.Thank you so much for all the insight and everything.For me,I live for this stuff,I could rant for Days.But if Dave was not sharing this where would I get it,with all the experience,I have been playing with speakers and sound since I was a kid.I wish I had realized my passion then, The information being received is so valuable Its indescribable.Think of all the hours of testing and touring to learn it all,and Dave is giving it to us, Thanx again Dave,can`t say it enough.
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If it’s good enough for Elton John, it’s good enough for most people. Remember surround sound systems have been doing this concept for quite some time and in the live world with being arrogant and not understanding this. Hey Dave, keep up the good work. Appreciate your brother.
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Dave is a legend. When he speaks you should appreciate it. Amazing
Too kind!
The distributed mix was what we used with Stevie Ray Vaughn’s ‘live alive’ 😅tour. For Stevie, we had three 15”2” monitors. the middle was for Stevie’s vocal. The two outside wedges gave him a stereo guitar mix. The rest of Stevie’s band mix was via the side fills. Drum mix was two 15”2” wedges plus a dual 18” sub behind for all of the kick you could want. The last two mixes were provided by two more 15”2” wedges
Happy band….incredible show every nite.
Cool setup!
When's the Dave Rat Netflix Special? I would absolutely binge these videos Dave! Thanx brother for putting this all out for us. Always, ALWAYS gets us thinking. Keep'm coming!
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Dave, I love learning the science behind sound, it is so fascinating. You are a huge inspiration to my career when I'm out mixing FOH or monitors.
PS, please put those mini-micro wedges into production regardless if they work, I love looking at them and would love to buy a couple haha.
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Let me just say, as “most” others do. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and the way you explain it!!! I’ve been following you for years. I haven’t had any formal training in”FOH”.
So your “think about this” way of explaining things has been invaluable!! It actually helped me design speakers(3-way tri-amped) for my band(local).
So cool and thank you!
very cool to see the behind the scenes on how one idea becomes another and another. Really drives home Dave wanting us to understand the concept more than just the application.
I function much better if I understand the concept and fundamentals too because then it's not so abstract. I'll give you a perfect example, I was driving a tractor for some money when I was like 19 and it had GPS auto steer so it had the perfect amount of overlap and was nice and straight, and the guy was showing me how to get it going and he's like, "Ok so you press this, then this, then this, and then that, see?" And I was like wait a second, what did that first button do? And then we went through what each step did exactly, then it was much easier for me to understand.
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Thanks, Dave It would be great to go to concert and hear a double hung pa so many vocals lost in the mix. Next time I do a live show going to run extra vocal monitor for the stage mix you rock!
Let me know how it goes!
I have been using something similar in my rigs, when and where it is appropriate, with fairly reasonable success. You have inspired me to perhaps apply this theory more rigorously and see if there is an appreciable benefit in the results as a result. Thanks for sharing your ideas and explaining where you developed them from. You are a true pioneer in many of these areas and I appreciate your willingness to share them vs being a bay humbug and locking them away in your head as proprietary, etc. In this industry I have encountered more than a few of the later types, sadly. Again, thanks, Dave. - Eric in NorCal.
Awesome Eric and thank you!
So exited to see the videos coming!
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Dave, thanks for "inventing" this concept. It makes sense to me, and probably explains why I had success in the early seventies with what I did with my band's PA. We were mostly in the analog age, but some of our venues required a little more than what most of our contemporaries used. The Kustom and Shure systems of that time were pretty good for most smaller clubs and similarly sized venues, but if the room was larger or we were outdoors, they just didn't have enough power/clarity when cranked up in those situations. LInear arrays and subs did not exist then. We had a Sunn digital console, and took the analog signal through active and passive crossovers and tri-amped the mains with 15's, 12's, and then large horns with piezo tweeter arrays on top of them, with double the power to the 15's. Amazing difference in clarity. And, we ran two stage monitor feeds, one for the vocals, and one for the instrument input, along with "side" monitors that were bi-amped with only passive crossovers. This gave us clarity in the vocal monitors, and still could bring up the instruments' when needed. I decided on doing this with our PA only because hi-fi enthusiasts were bi-amping and tri-amping their home systems to theoretically increase power on the bottom and maintaining clarity in the upper ranges. You came to your solution from a different direction, but your solution seems to be the optimum when one has access to today's equipment. I bet those bands never had had the clarity your ideas gave them. Just genius on your part!!
Cool stories and thank you!
This is the first time I’ve heard of this concept! This makes so much sense. I’ve experienced the same thing with my IEM’s when using a mono mix compared to stereo. My mono mix requires “more me” and careful eq while my panned stereo mix requires little eq and almost zero boost of my vocals and keys. This works for me but other performers I’ve worked with find no advantage to stereo iem’s or simply prefer wedges. I look forward to trying this micro monitor concept in the future. Thanks for this excellent and useful video.
Awesome thank you Darryl and let me know how it works out
Thanks for doing these, Dave, very much appreciate getting some real world knowledge from someone who has been out there and done it.
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Thanks Dave, i love your concept..
Thank you, Galih!
I have recently bought 4 mw 12's, ran by powersoft T604, and I have used this setup as You have reccomended in the manual, and the results are great. My lead vocal is very happy with the control she has on stage
Awesome! Which presets are ya using? They may be the same as the ones in the powersoft amp, but to be sure, the best presets are the ones I put up on daverat.com
Maybe in the amp ar the "R" version or Rat version
love it Dave, I am enjoying the videos on this topic.
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3D printed speaker box is awesome. 🔊
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hello dave, i cant thank you enough for the amount of honest study material you make available to the world, so i'll leave that there. My query (since i currently have no way of testing any such thing, otherwise i wouldnt ask) is whether you have noticed different patterns of feedback behavior using an uncorrelated PA (forgive my generalization it's for the sake of brevity)
Hmmm, several sources recreating differing decorrelated versions of the same; instrument should be a bit more feedback stable for the same percieve volume level than the same signal radiated from several sources
This would be due to less summations and cancellation om's on the coverage area. The feedback would be triggered by the summations
@@DaveRat thank you for your insight Dave!
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Thank you very much sir. You open my mind 🤘👑!
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Amazing video explanation Dave thank you for taking time and making these videos
Thank you DJ Phillip!!
I have done similar things when trying to get the most out of very small PA systems, like ones that are probably a bit to small for what might really be needed for a metal project that uses drum tracks. The PA was just essentially some small powered bins, 400 watts each, a 15" and a horn. I gave the drum tracks their own system and also the vocals as well. And yes, it definitely punched above it's weight as you could get clear vox while maybe the "drum speakers" were being pushed a bit.
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Yep. I remember being bored once because the band coming through my venue had their own IEM rig. I ended up putting the otherwise unused monitor console in LCR mode and doing my own little private mix. The clarity of that mix vs flipping the console back to stereo was, well maybe not night & day, but it was _easily_ a noticeable improvement.
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This is very useful information. I’ve since moved to a silent stage/in-ear mode of operation, but should an artist have difficulty with their ear pieces it would be comforting to have this kind of monitoring setup should they need to pull their ear piece out and they could still be able to hear their performance clearly. But even with developing my in-ear monitoring, it took me a while to learn how much more clarity the source signals had when you could break them up into stereo group sends to be adjusted to taste on the cue mix rather than forcing everything down the same signal path where everything just got mashed up into one indistinguishable mass of harshness that just fatigues ears and brains just a few songs in.
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My goal for small venues has always been to try and get the sound to sound like it's coming directly from the instrument to my ears. Or directly from the speaker to my ears. I first thought of this when I heard a professor speaking from a lectern with a speaker in the base. I was sitting back a little ways, but the sound was coming from him, not overhead speakers. with some simple panning and better placement of main speakers, I have been able to get a pretty good simulation of that effect for a 200 seat sanctuary. Getting that from instruments is another beast I am still working on. I'd love to have speakers at the Keyboard, Piano, and strings where the sound emanates from that physical location rather than from the mains. That would cause some issues with vocal mics for sure.
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I freaking love your channel. You are a genius
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The double hung PA seems really interesting. I was recently at a show with the normal sort of line array and the intermodulation between guitars, bass, drums, and vocals made the vocal almost unintelligible. It sounds like this new setup is kind of like getting a bit of the “Wall of Sound” separation, and to me that seems that clarity could be improved a lot. I would go to more concerts if the sound was actually better.
Also for monitors, I’ve always enjoyed playing on stages when stereo or multiple monitors are available. While playing bass (I play upright usually) with the luxury of two monitor mixes, i like to do something like lots of snare and some kick in one speaker, rhythm guitar in the other, and a bit of everything else spread out, and I’ll hear my bass from my amp. I feel it far easier to sort out the groove/timing that way, and sometimes that can be a bit tricky with the LF delay you tend to hear from the larger sub arrays coming back on stage. The added separation makes me go from struggling to hear the groove to just getting into it and playing. Now I want to get another few monitors for my PA and run them this way too. Thanks for the very clear explanation as to why it works.
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Man those little wedges are cool. I teach live & studio sound at college level and Acoustics at university level in the UK. Some little boxes like those you have would be incredible for demonstrations.
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This is beautiful 🙏 once again, thanks Dave the GOAT
Life is Listening 🙂
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Great stuff as always, Dave. I love this thought process, thinking about how we perceive sounds in nature. Definitely thinking outside the box, no pun intended. 😄 Man, thank you so much for your videos! 🤘🏼
Thank you Brian!
beautiful way to approach innovation in sound. I wish you could teach me all day everyday haha
Awesome and thank you Kevin!
This is so incredible, and should've an obvious approach all along honestly. Also, thanks for the sub sweeps at the end! Sub is workin just fine. haha
Cool cool Drew!
Love this and I'm not even in sound. But the concept can apply to all sorts of things. Thanks Dave! Cheers!
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This was really good Dave, I think I had a good understanding of your thoughts on this stuff already, but this was very interesting. BTW those little micro wedges and just too cute, ummm cool, and I need a STL :)
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Thanx Dave! This subject is very interesting.
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That's funny. I thought about a multiple speaker mains system about 30 years ago. All for the same reasons that you mentioned. Line arrays came out and threw it out the window. Engineers want line arrays these days. I'm still a point source guy. Great videos. Thanks.
Proper tool for the job is an important strategy. A line array is a bunch of point sources vertically oriented. A true point source system would be a single coaxial or triaxial driver which often is insufficient to cover medium to large spaces. What people refer to as point source systems are often a bunch of speakers oriented in horizontal and vertical arrays.
@@DaveRat I don't know... 4 Danley J1's per side would be a pretty badass PA lol. Each cab per side would carry what you want in it. 1 for voc, 1 for drums etc. It would be incredibly clean.
Point sources (non arrayable designs) are wonderful and excellent for many applications.
The challenge with point source enclosures that are actually point sources is they can not be arrayed and still be point sources.
That said, multiple point sources, each with differing input signals would not be an array and would be quite effective for covering spaces as long as the coverage needed can be covered by any single box
This explains why perfect mixes rarely last long. Not everyone can hear the noise either. It drives me nuts. Even when I am simply doing karaoke shows, I have to have an EQ on every source and for the room, have to have subs in some form, and sometimes the room serves as a backup as well. I'll change orientation of the drivers on the fly to bounce off the walls a bit differently to cancel out the noise.
Good powerful sound is coming in smaller packages these days, so adding a "2nd PA " of some sort, might actually be in the cards for all the different types of gigs I do or plan to do.
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Thanks, great info.
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It all comes together...
Question: where can I find replacement xovers for Radian Apex 1200 mons? They just keep frying!
And, as always, thanks so much for all you do -- you da man!
Hey hey Todd, try parts express for replacing individual components. Else give Rat a shout and will see what we have.
Great info and thought process Dave. Many thanks. Tom eh
Cool cool Tom!
With my bar band, I run 4 monitor mixes, one for each guy. I use JBL Eon 610s and in monitor EQ mode they cut a lot of low mids and lows so it sounds kind of thin. Until the subs are on in FOH and the bass amp is running. Since bass is so omnidirectional, the low end in the subs is all you need and you get a ton more clarity and power headroom in the monitors with the low end out of them. It works pretty well for us, we're also pretty reasonable guys, no prima donnas that need more 2k on the second guitar amp kinda guys.
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2x15 + 1x10 + HF of '80s top spec pro audio drivers is seriously loud for a monitor. Seriously. Totally agree about de-correlation and clarity being required, rather than just "more loud". It should be loud enough.
It is clear using backline in the rehearsal room - discrete sources - the ear's phased barometric pressure sensing array can decode the localisation information as inherent to the source, and distortion, reverb & comb filter are authentic and helpful, rather than audible as a distortion artefact. With phase distortion, directivity distortion, and intermodulation distortion being accentuated as the "veil" and generating localisation information that highlights the distortion, the distorted sound of a Marshall cabinet and the sound of heavy metal is a sound aesthetic which is essential to modern music.
I actually put my stereo or "converged" mix through a distortion channel strip and bandpass filter to find out what happens when the music saturates per band - a really good mix considers saturation and balance - that's the art of tone. As a guitar player, a fine distortion characteristic and "glue" is a desirable thing, rather than something to avoid.
For sound reinforcement per source I tend to basically make a three or four way discrimination per source - "spotlight/lead", "converged" backing/rhythm, "bassiline" kick/sub, and reverb - generally injecting a reverberant component is something to avoid *but* for classical music and opera this is required to suitably amplify sources. Classical music sound reinforcement is an advanced technical art form, and the multi-output "room control" models are becoming capable of active noise control and being able to tune, remove or add room modes to taste.
Once you start putting bending wave motors into all the surfaces and putting a microphone array & sensors into everything, and creating a truly "networked" sound reinforcement system, the sophisticated tricks used in phased array RADAR systems and industrial measurement acoustics can be used.
One of the ranges of devices I am working on is an active acoustic treatment + reinforcement system which also functions as an architectural surface & visual display. It's flat but it isn't thin like a film or a paint... yet...
... but it in theory totally could be ... it would be expensive paint per square inch done with current tech ...
My panel is under an inch thick as it stands, with an acoustic resolution of a few feet to a few inches square at a power density of 300W (getting up to kilowatts & megawatts industrial heater power is undesirable), and have come up with a unit which is fit for purpose for near field and mid field as well as reverberant information, and reinforcement use, but probably not fine enough for anechoic simulation / HF removing active noise cancellation. Bending wave reinforcement has a completely different feedback and distortion characteristic.
And also I will at some point demo a simple cool setup that sounds realistic using stuff I have made and laying around
Great video, Dave!! Thanks, man!
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Awesome content as per usual! Since you are primarily an engineer and have developed the microwedge as well as lots of other systems I am curious if you have had any personal experience with Danley sound Labs designs and most specifically their SM80M wedge monitor. I enjoy the creativity and outside the box concepts of both their and your designs. Thanks!!! I second the miniature PA system manufacturing... Untapped market for sure!
I have compared the MicroWedge side by side to the SM80m. The Danley does sound good and is a solid design. Volume wise they are comparable, the MicroWedge goes lower and has a smaller footprint.
Well, a drum is a single source that makes many different sounds at once. Same with a waterfall or crashing waves. There are many different frequencies happening at the same time. But I get your point. Obviously breaking up the mix between many speakers would be nice. Sort of like a small club. The guitar comes from one amp and the drums come from the drums and the vocals come through the PA. Slightly bigger clubs have all those sources separated and included in the house mix. But you can still hear the drums and the amps from their original sources. The bigger the venue the more absurd it gets.
Yes complexity increases and yet so does our capabilities to deploy more complex systems.
When you look at technology like the Holoplot where there are 64 amplifiers driving 64 speakers in a panel smaller than 4x3 feet and each amp and speaker can be individually processed, you may begin to realize that the tech to actually recreate sound closer to accurately already exists.
It just has not been configured and applied
While the Holoplot is a different concept based on beam forming rather than separation and accurate source recreation, all the tools we need are here now and beam forming is way way more complex.
@@DaveRat ah. Okay. Cool. See my other comment on your last video. It seems we’re on the same page accept you seem to know more about the current tech.
We’re you referring to the software that can separate each instrument? It’s been around for decades and can only imagine how much better it is now. Hopefully easily tweaked and real time. Sound cards and interfaces should have between 4 and 24 outputs.
No. I am referring to configuring speakers in such a way as to better replicate sound sources. Though I don't know any off the shelf examples
It's funny you inspired me to try something like this for band practice then you did a video on it!!!
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I love my Micro wedges. so nice of a foot print. and yes most festival I run interment one mix and vx on another at least on the front mixes. but also hi pass is my best friend when providing a good mix to each of the people on stage. got them and sold a bunch to churches and even a theater when radian was doing them. is there a big difference with the newer monitors
Awesome! That is so cool. Which newer monitors?
The micro wedges built by EAW as opposed to the ones built a while back by Radian.
The EAW are much better. The cone surrounds don't crack, an issue I battled radian to solve, lighter, louder and I worked very hard on the processor settings. Both for biamp and passive settings. Also they have fly track and I improved the smoothness of the dispersion.
And big improvements to the passive crossover.
I tried really hard to get my church i run sound for to do something like this in their new building. Unfortunately when you hire a company to put together fancy graphs with ridiculously priced speakers you lose. Churchs i think would be the place that would really benefit from running vocals through their own source, mainly because you are trying to have a big full sound while trying to keep volume low.
Agreed
Cool idea Dave.
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Thank you sir
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Maybe put a speaker or speaker above the instrument/singer. Mix only that individual source sound through the speaker. Maintain that distance and different reflections from each source. A cooler live experience I’m sure
Interested in seeing any experiments and adventures people try and will post more vids
Very interesting Dave, could you tell us the comments that the musicians who tried this concept have made?
Many musicians know whether sound is clear and they like it or blurry and they don't. Personally I don't go out of my way to explain unless they ask.
I think a more useful question is to ask engineers whether the happiness of the musicians is more consistent with seperate sources than without.
I recommend giving a try. I think you will find that it can be very useful for musicians that are ofelten unhappy with conventional setups
@@DaveRat Cool!! BTW, I tried the concept of panning the kick in and kick out mics in a metal mix I'm working on, and wow, I noticed a huge jump in clarity and punch that was missing and couldn't get with any plugin!!! thanks a lot
That is cool, love that you are experimenting!
Super meaty content Dave! Thank you!
Cool cool vas!
you’re a legend Dave!
Thank you Russell!
Dave, your place is in the University! ( any of them, in the board! )
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My Hillbilly TV Speaker Setup Heard It Again! I Hear Things In My Head, and Think I'm Going Nuts. But It IS YOU, It's You!
Hi Dave! If the gig has lots of amplifier channels but only two 2-way wedges (per singer) would you still send vocals to both of the singers ears and send LF instruments to only one ear?
The wall of sound….spector sound. Every instrument his own PA…. With a mixer 20 in 20 out… it works.
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Dave, now I want to know what you think about Dolby Atmos, because I think you just sold me on it! (I know that's now what this is about, but isn't Atmos kind of the same thing? It's playing different sounds through different speakers in a standardized and scalable way.)
Yes and no. Atmos is trying to simulate an environment with sounds coming from above and behind.
And while that is cool and interesting especially for movies. My interest is in recreating a level of sonic realistic from a source or multiple sources in one area, say, in front of you. More like a better stereo or making your stereo sound like a live concert but not as loud
Been using some of these multi driver iem's. Makes a massive difference in clarity but again pipes it straight into your hole. And own sone beyers i like to mod. But wondering about multi driver over ears, remember some gaming company tried a while back but wasnt very succesful. Im not sure why, it seems ideal if the drivers are up to it. ..can you get the new style solenoid style linear drivers in high enough wattage i wonder
Very cool there is a difference though here. Multi driver in ears all reproduce the same signal or have a crossover.
This design every speaker reproduces a different signal
Dude thank u for the wisdom
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Hahaha...it all make sense...the first time Ive experience a live band concert I thought that each instrument are miked and send to each dedicated speakers...then they all told me that its impossible and not realistic...I started mixing live gig way back 1999 with my garage band...funny but it seems my first idea was RIGHT! Lesson in life
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This makes me think of 360° audio, and similar things it attempts to achieve with signal decorrelation. I’d love to hear your thoughts, musings, and opinions on Dolby Atmos or other spatial audio systems.
I've been to a Dolby Atmos demo in a Dolby studio. Using multiple speakers to simulate a surround environment is interesting and useful especially for things like movies.
I personally am more interested in recreation than simulation.
Recreating multiple sources such that the reproduction more closely parallels real world.
Creating a sound source 5hat you can literally walk around it and almost not be able to hear a difference between reproduction and the original
Brilliant
I have thought that the positional audio that's being developed for home theater could be used to do something similar by putting different instruments on different speakers. This could probably both improve imaging and reduce distortion, and maybe even create some common ground between home theater fanatics and audiophiles...
Yes to some degree. I will post a vid on a functional version of what I envision.
I believe we have the ability to recreate very realistic sonic reproduction that greatly exceeds what is currently available and it can be done with less expensive speakers resulting in more realistic sound
quick question dave, what cable coiling technique do u geuinly think is better like for all reasons from the cables health, longevity ect,
Over under for small diameter cable is best. Over over creates cable damaging coils. Cable reels are good but bulky and slow. Over under mixed with fig 8 for large diameter cables.
The key is to make sure that when uncoiled there are no loops and when coiling the cable naturally sits flat
Awesome. So when DJ is mixing in the studio, for traditional stereo setup, the spatial information is reduced / limited to two sources, implying a singular sweetspot for the listener, which is unfavorable in public situations (well in the "sweetspot" we may expect to finad a spot for a sound engineer ;-) So when thinking about big events, Dj should all tracks / "instruments" keep separate, and then his role would be to mix them live for a given sound system, creating spatial effects by using separate sources for every track, in other words - PA as an instrument :-) And his place would be in the center of the field, most listeners would have him behind their backs...
Keeping them separate is step one. Next you need sound systems that also allow for all the separate or more than 2 separate inputs covering the listening area.
And this would be awesome!
Wasn't it Richard Kontrimas from Radian who designed the Micro-monitor. And yes, many years ago.
Actually I designed and patented the MicroWedge design and licenced to Radian. Then, I was not happy with the development of processor settings and relaibilty so when the contract ended, I I licenced the design to EAW and together took the product to the level I was seeking to reach. They do a great job and the EAW version is louder, more stable, and has more features and improved sound quality.
When I ended the licensing deal with Radian, they built a similar product but could not use the trapezoidal shape as it infringed on my patent.
I have a small sound system...but all your saying make sense...Fuck those bashers!Thank you sir for making these videos!Ill make a shirt MAKE SENSE - dave rat!
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cool - thanks
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brilliant!
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It all comes together...
Question: where can I find replacement xovers for Radian Apex 1200 mons? They just keep frying!
Hmmm, probably best to replace just the fried parts. They should be marked with the values or look at a non fried one
Parts express should have have the parts
Let me know if you need more assist. And I will see what I can do. Maybe reach out on the channel members Telegram channel. Cool cool Todd
@@DaveRat Thanks as always!
Cool cool, and if you have a tough time, I think I have a few parts from the MicroWedge crossover. If it's capacitors that are going bad, use higher voltage versions. If it's chokes, osually it's that they come loose, if chokes are over heating, then you can reposition and mount near the port by adding wires
Great video! Been wondering how you mix into the "two" systems? I have an x32 and I'm using 4 buss'. I basically leave sends on faders on the whole time and select the channel I want to adjust. As soon as I select a certain channel, the two buss faders that it's being sent to pop up on the buss faders. Adjusting them both at same time is how I mix. Is this how you would suggest running it or is there a different/better way? Also, I have drums and vocals in one stack and gtr and bass in the other. Is this how you split things up every time? Again, thanks for all you mad Rat you!!!
Hmmm, I thought I did a vid on how to mis to two PAs. May be in in one of the channel members chats.
okay Thanks, I'll look for it. Cheers
@@DaveRat Hey Dave, I looked for a video explaining how to mix the two PAs system and can't seem to find it... any chance you could send me a link to the video? Thanks!
Hmmm, maybe it was in one of the channel members zoom chats. I will ponder covering that.
Also maybe search for double hung PA because I'm quite sure I covered that in my blog a while back
Dave what do you think about the electronic sound separation engines? Klang is doing something for IEM's. I wonder if it might produce interesting results with a stereo pair of wedges? Adamson has their new Fletcher Machine, Meyer Sound has stuff that does stuff with a bunch of speakers all over the room. D&B has something with speakers hung all over the room.
It's all about using the right tool for the job to achieve the desired result.
And then double checking to make sure whatever we did actually is an improvement and any issues do not outweigh the gains.
Each of the things you mention are designed for a goal and application. Things like immersive sound or advanced control to simulate source location
If choosing between having sound come from separate sources vs simulating or trying to create the illusion of sound from separate sources, the simulations will will always be lacking, whether or not that matters for the application is a separate decision.
@@DaveRat Yeah. Sam Gamgee's dad said: "There's nothing like looking when you're trying to find something." Thanks for inspiring normies to have fun and just try things! Ah - everyone knows it. You inspire creative curiosity. Thank you.
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do you use digital cables and software or is this operated through aux? maybe look into atmos for inspiration.
I've not only heard Atmos, I have had a personal demo of Atmos given by Dolby. Impressive and also a differing concept than I am going after. Atmos is trying to simulate an environment and offers placement control.
I am more interested in recreation than simulation
@@DaveRat "more interested in recreation than simulation" This morning I was mapping a sound effect to a 3D space for Atmos and automating its movement across the soundscape. Very much a simulation! Very well put Dave.
Very cool and I do enjoy the various tools and Atmos is cool and interesting to experience.
@@DaveRat Not as much as we enjoy you brother rock on 🤙
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So, you essentially revisiting the Grateful Dead's wall of Sound PA they utilized back in the 60's... " Everything old becomes new again!"
Hmmm, i see it more as a progression.
The Dead had a huge cumbersome PA behind the band with significant coverage and scalability challenges, not to mention, no where to put the video screens. Which we all know is more important than sound.
Solving those issues and pushing to new levels is not really an 'old is new' as much as progress and innovation.
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In doing this you have also made the first set of desktop monitors for podcasters ! these are great teaching tools.
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Should we make a new version of the grateful deads wall of sound? 😊
So cool to hear the process from the designer rather than a 3rd persons perception of what and why things were done. Thanks Dave, you are single handedly breaking the current trends of how information is taught, and you make it fun by not acting like some rock star, rather a real person with a passion who just happens to have been there and done that. :)
Thank you so much and really appreciate the positive input!!
Still would really like to buy these micro wedges
How do you determine where to place each instrument when you are replicating this in a front-of-house system?
Hey you said you play those wedges for different frequency so what frequency they play you sad vocal, guitar, snare what are the rest and at what frequency do each play that would sound good
I do it by sending different instruments to different speakers and all the speakers are full range.
If you are dividing frequencies, that is different and is basically a crossover.
So early on I was making speakers with more and more crossovers, then I started separating by instrument instead of by frequency
Ok so by instruments you mean vocals and guitar and instruments so what frequency are those
Not sure what you mean. When I say vocals I mean I take just the vocals and send those to a speaker and then I have a separate channel that has just the guitar and I send that to a different speaker and so on. Once the sounds have been all mixed together you can't do it
Oh ok I understand know I thought you use a stem splitter to split music then send to the speakers but I guess you can't take direct music then split it then send it to different speakers I guess it's impossible
@MyTgangsta Yes splitting it once it's been mixed is very tough. I have live recordings with the tracks that have not been combined together yet. This is mainly meant for live sound or recording people that have access to the original tracks before mixed together
Can you transfer this to subs?
F.ex. stack 2x2 sub in front and 2x2 behinde in cardioide .
Bottom subs under 50 Hz and upper subs over 50 Hz.
Delay back subs about 40 and 60 Hz?
Due to the longer wavelengths, subs will tend to act like a single source when paced close to each other and any differences in signals will alter dispersion, summations and cancellations but not really be percieved as separate sources.
Doing what you describe would mainly alter the dispersion and coverages at different frequencies.
It would be cool if you could make those micro wedges work.
That work and sound great!
Dave like Kopernik.
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so in a Plato idealised world a system for every sound source, got it
I do understand the tendency to drift toward extremes. And also making things overly complex will inevitably result in diminishing returns.
Overly simple like mono and stereo will offer the lackluster results we currently accept as the norm.
And somewhere in between, more than stereo yet not a surround sound simulation, but rather an increase in sources, will get as greatly improved results with a moderate increase in complexity.
I will do a demo vid at some point
14:02 “a way to look at sound”
If anyone could actually SEE sound it would be Dave Rat
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rock in rio PA system utilizes 2 PA columns only for vocals
Yes, that came from my design when I toured with that setup with Chili Peppers.
@@DaveRat 😃