The Franciscan Intellectual Tradition
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- Опубліковано 7 тра 2023
- Friends, many people are familiar with the Thomistic tradition, following St. Thomas Aquinas, but what about the Franciscan intellectual tradition, following St. Francis? Who are some of the great Franciscan theologians, and what can they teach us today? That’s what Brandon Vogt and I discuss on today’s episode of “The Word on Fire Show.”
A listener asks, does God the Father love us as much as he loves Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
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As a dad of a son with Down’s syndrome and having spent 6 years in formation with the OFMs I give 1,000 👍🏻 up for this video.
God bless you and family. I too love the Bishop's teachings on intellectualism. He helps
Bonaventurian here. I'm currently doing my Ph.D. dissertation on wisdom according to St. Bonaventure's Collationes in Hexaemeron. I feel seen! Thank you.
Great to feel seen in scholarship...
Wishing you all the best for your PhD, hope you enjoy the journey!
May God bless you 🙏
I am doing mine on Bonaventure and Scotus' influence on the conversion and poetry of Gerard Manely Hopkins. Great to see Bonaventure looked into and opened up more to speak to a western world that very much needs it.
Can you recommend me some reading for an introduction to Bonaventure and Scotus?
@@aisthpaoitht for Bonaventure, there's a lot, but check out either Christopher Cullen's book, entitled "Bonaventure" or the more classic, "Introduction to the Works of Bonaventure" by J. Guy Bougerol, O.F.M.
As for Scotus, I hear Thomas Ward has a good book out, entitled "Ordered by Love: An Introduction to John Duns Scotus." Scotists I know are praising it.
Deep and great thanks for spotlighting on the Franciscan School. St. Bonaventure’s influence on Joseph Ratzinger truly changed (or rather corrected to what is should be) our Catholic understanding of God’s revelation from the Thomistic “propositional” (truth statements or doctrines) to the “personal” (God revealing Godself leading to personal encounter and intimacy). The young future pope did his professorial doctorate on St. Bonaventure and eventually helped in the drafting of Dei Verbum which taught this reformed idea of revelation. This seemingly small change in our view of revelation has big significant meaning in the way we Catholics understand what our Christian life basically is all about. In the Thomistic propositional view, one’s response to revelation is intellectual assent like having been catechized and knowing the basic tenets of the faith. In the personal view, one’s response after a personal encounter with Jesus consists in faith that is like a personal intimate relationship shown in obedience to and worship of God.
Doesn’t it depersonalize God to take away the pronoun He? Just a thought that your pronouns are cutting in the opposite direction to the meaning of your words
@@Christiancatholic7 I invite you to take the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read no. 370.
@@lanbaode I invite you to read CCC 239. I can’t have a personal relationship with a Godself to use your point in your initial comment. It puts me off. I never met a Godself, though I have had a human father who I referred to as he. I would think calling God she even is much preferable to this Godself nonsense. If the Catechism suggested it I would even welcome the feminine in reference to God, as I also have had a mother. But please none of this neopronoun wokeness that means nothing
@@Christiancatholic7 it’s to highlight God as beyond human categories. Good for you to relate to God in masculine imagery, but not good for all especially those who know the Bible well. God is equally imaged as female in various places in the Bible. Our human language is never adequate to comprehend the essence of God. What is important is to relate to God deeply on what is most fit for you but to also to be aware that God is always more than the language you use as CCC 370 clearly points to.
Thank you Bishop Barron and Brandon. I always love to listen to both you on Word on Fire show. GOD bless you both. ➕️ ♥️
Thanks Bishop Baron for bringing St. Bonaventure’s spiritual tradition to bare for me 🙏🏽
Scotist here. Thanks for doing an episode on this. I feel calmly vindicated.
Get a load of this dunce
LOL, PEACE AND GOOD BROTHER ! 👍 😁
Thank you so much, Bishop Barron, for educating us about St. Bonaventure, whom I knew nothing about. I’ll definitely look for the mind’s journey book he wrote. God bless you both in your work! ❤❤❤
St. Bonaventure is the Seraphic Doctor and St. Anthony of Padua is Doctor of the Gospels. (People often forget about St. Anthony's Doctor designation.
Wonderful episode!
If the WOF team is reading this, somebody please get a copy of Dr. Matthew Milliner‘s book “Mother of the Lamb” into Brandon or Bishop Barron’s hands. It’s a history of the icon we know as “Our Lady of Perpetual Help”, but originally known as “The Virgin of the Passion” and painted as part of a larger fresco program in a chapel on the island of Crete. The history is fascinating and the icon has much to say to us living the wake of Christendom’s ongoing decline. If Augustine‘s City of God was a response to the collapse of Roman Empire, this icon is a response to the collapse of Christian empire. Milliner’s believes that the icon does just as much theological heavy lifting as the verbal theologians do with their words. It’s an accessible work, but one that’s stuffed with endnotes revealing the tremendous (and very responsible) scholarship behind the tale. I believe this book will inspire Marian devotion across denominational lines. It leads with beauty, doesn’t shy away from intellectual rigor, and inspires prayer and contemplation in the reader. it’s Mariology is also challenging to both liberal and conservative assumptions. Go read it and then have Dr. Milliner’s on the show!!
Thank you, Bishop Barron
Keep on keeping on Bishop Barron we love you !!❤
Such a deeply spiritual talk.. thank you cast and crew Word on Fire...
God bless you Bishop
Love this conversation so much.
"God intended from the beginning to fully express himself in the Son in the Incarnation and thereby bringing Creation to its fulfillment."
*- Bishop Barron*
Beginning?
@@benhills1340👍 Yes
Ben's caution is correct.
@@brendamyc3173
Could you please explain why/how?
Thank you.
Thank you Jesus
In gratitude to you two wonderful people and God protect and keep you well. Thank you for your prophetic work.
Oh, what a wonderful exploration of the Franciscan intellectual tradition! Bishop Barron has a gift for shedding light on deep theological concepts in a clear and engaging manner. It's fascinating to dive into the mystical side of Bonaventure's theology, where he beautifully describes the cross as the "Tree of Life," symbolizing the soul's journey towards God. Bonaventure teaches us that letting go of worldly desires is important on this spiritual path.
I must say, the friendship between Bonaventure and Aquinas, two influential figures in the Church, is a testament to the different ways one can seek truth. Bonaventure took an approach influenced by Augustine and Plato, while Aquinas leaned more towards Aristotle. Both approaches offer valuable insights for our faith. Let's not forget about John Duns Scotus, a remarkable thinker who dared to explore new perspectives.
Scotus appreciated the beauty of each person's uniqueness, emphasizing the individual aspects of created beings. His understanding of the Incarnation, as a way for God to show His beauty in a tangible way, adds a deep dimension to our reflection.
Bishop Barron skillfully balances the mystical and rational aspects of theology. Both are important, but embracing the intuitive side of faith can deepen our understanding and lead us to new spiritual horizons. The Franciscan intellectual tradition, with its love for mystery and recognition of the limits of human understanding, offers valuable insights for all seekers of truth.
Oh, and Meg's question about whether God loves each person equally is thought-provoking. Bishop Barron explains that while God's infinite love is unwavering, His plan may bring forth different blessings for different individuals. It's a beautiful reminder of how uniquely we fit into God's loving plan.
Thank you for sharing this fascinating video! It's a true gem for those wanting to learn more about the Franciscan intellectual tradition. May we continue to explore these wonderful theological ideas and grow in our faith as we journey towards God.
God's blessings to you all! 🙏✨
This has been a great discussion to hear, thank y'all so much for this!
Thank you Bishop! God Bless you generously!
In his interview with you, Bishop, Mark Bradford may have mentioned he had served as St. Charles Borromeo Seminary’s music director. I had the pleasure of working with him most of my time as an organist. He spoke little of these interests to my memory, but today I can see how his exquisite sensitivity to beauty in music relates to the beauty he wants to awaken in people’s hearts regarding developmental diversity.
The host is a very bright young man.
Hello Bishop Barron. There has not been a lot of Franciscan theology on almost any Catholic podcast. As a secular Franciscan thanks for putting it out there.
Love the explanation of Duns Scotus view of particularity which I as a Protestant artist discovered while reading a book on 14th century French architecture over twenty years ago! 25:58
Thanks for the enlightenment 🕯️
Thanks you bishop barron I like your listen to UA-cam God bless
Thanks much for this video.
Amazing!!
Bishop Barron is someone I can always count on as I continue grow in the knowledge of a follower of Jesus.
So good! Loved that overview…and that greater opening to the lyrical and mystical voices of Bonaventure and John Duns! My previous intro to these figures has been through the Franciscan mysticism of Fr Richard Rohr.
Meanwhile, that was fascinating to realize how the lives of Aquinas and Bonaventure overlapped so intimately. Like two overarching cherubim…that was a great image. Hopefully their spinning swords together are opening our way to the garden and not barring it!
As I understand it, the Bishop, as a Thomist, disagrees with St. Thomas Aquinas on the Immaculate Conception. And he disagrees with Scotus on Univocity. I know that in today's world, we hate that which with we disagree. We should not conflate disagreement with hate.
Thank you❤😍🌏
Great episode!
Agreed
“It’s barbaric” , absolutely right. I’ve volunteered with Down syndrome people . Never seen such beautiful souls … love them, ( speaking to the beginning of the program)
I have fond childhood memories of Kenny, a man who had Down Syndrome who loved being a cowboy. Have a beautiful day 🙏
He rightly does not mince words
@@jackteare8292 love it
How we respond to "the least of these" affects our spiritual state, our whole being.
Hi, please make the Bishop's book 'This is My Body' available in India. I can't wait to read it.
Beautiful.
Oh, and yes, please, to another episode on Aquinas and John Duns Scotus. 🙂🙂
Fascinating
Please do a show on Scotus and the univocity of being!
Bishop Barron, I hope one day you will devote time to speak about the moral theology of St. Alphonsus Liguori.
Please could you do a conversation on William of Ockham?
I so enjoy learning like this!
Thank you so much for all you do!
🙏
Fr. Barron, we search for God in the heart more than in the mind.
High priority you’ve allotted these theologians. It rests well upon the mind this episode. Piena di grazia.
Hopefully, you will advocate for people who have other disabilities, as well. Everyone needs support. Thank you, WOF.
Saint Bonaventure, of course, received a miraculous healing through the intervention of Saint Francis of Assisi. St. Bonaventure also wrote helpful biographies: A Life of Christ and A Life of St. Francis
I particularly enjoyed this episode. I am a thomist and proudly so. I believe he is the greatest theologian and Christian philosopher that has ever lived.
Providentially, I'm concluding my book which emphasizes Duns Scotus. Bishop Barron gets credit for an assist.
Thank you love Franciscans😊
I accepted Christ after reading Bonaventure's Itinirarium... Sadly not many people know his work anymore but thank you for trying to remedy that!
This is a great intro discussion. I have one note that the key to understanding bonaventure isn’t his itinerarium it’s his commentary on the sentences where he inquired about the exemplary cause of things. His idea that creation is stamped with the image of sonship is key. To be is to be ordered to the glorification of the father in the son who contains all the ratios of the fathers ideas of the world
Really love seeing talk about other intellectual traditions. I'm an Eastern Catholic and I partake of the hesychastic tradition. Not very common among Catholics, but it's very much part of the Eastern tradition and history.
cool
Thank you Bishop Barron. May God bless both of you & Catholic Priests in the whole world. Amen.
Knowledge of persons is very important in the philosophy of the great Eleonore Stump. Perhaps Bp Barron could discuss her ideas.
I'm a Franciscan Fan Girl! Scotus❤❤❤❤❤
Saint Bonaventure. I'd love to read his work. I've read Your of the Summa, have tried to read City of God. Now my vision isn't so good. Diabetic retinopathy and early onset of cataracts. Ugh...😥
Are these title available as audiobooks? Could help. 😊
Yes❤All about God's❤ Heart..the Father Loves Creation through His Son; for indeed Creation was made for His Son, to share Their Love and Gifts..humans are God's Creation. ..therefore anyone who Loves the Son, Loves the One Creator God, and God will send His Love through the Holy Spirit Who then rewards them to the extent they are able to love His Son back.❤..and that discretion of the Holy Spirit is totally individualized, each per their own soul.❤ Let us remember our places here; and those that try to 'equate' the Love of God..with human reasoning or silly questioning. Thank you, Brandon and Bishop Barron, for such a hefty clerical history today. ❤
Always a pleasure 🙏 ☺️
Hi Brandon. Could you use your influence to get Bp Barron to do vids on Eleonore Stump and ‘Anscombe snd Geach’ the two great 20th century British Catholic philosophers.
As a Balthazarian, I'm all for Bonaventure/Thomist synthesis.
Listening to this discussion, I was helped immensely by having recently read Dr Peter Kreeft's "Socrates' Children: Contemporary: The 100 Greatest Philosophers" books 1 & 2 (currently working my way through the 3rd--I'm up to Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz.).
Word.
Thanks for this talk. It was really interesting, and quite a fan of both Saint Bonaventure and Duns Scotus. I am not sure I agree with you on the Univocity of being, I’m going to have to go back to my book by Brother Bill Short OFM, who I think has a rather more positive view of this.
Fr. Teilhard de Chardin once wrote that when it came to the central lens of theology, he observed roughly two leanings. He described those he called primarily "juridicists" and those he called primarily "mystics" (interestingly, he also called these "physicalists," that is, those who perceive reality in a sacramental way: when God's grace and love is often communicated via physical creation, as many mystics have observed). And then he added that he was unapologetically a person with a mystical lens. In this line of thought, many suggested that it may be more helpful to say that the most holy Incarnation must have been the eternal plan of God not only to save us, or even to show His majesty to us (which itself He has no need to do whatsoever), but for a much more astounding reason. To show us who He really Is, His absolute essence, in the most beautiful (and for us most outrageous) condescension of Love: to fully COMMUNE with us, His own handiwork. There is no greater love than this... This way, it makes even more sense why some of the Angels could have revolted against such divine plan. The Incarnation is absolutely revolting to a shining intellect that does not also possess the love of God. When Truth is deeply known and understood in its "equations," but with the coldness of "arithmetic" which is not infused by the blazing fire of Love. Those who are from God must have both: Truth (yes, by all means), but also incalculable and indescribable Love that knows no limits. Without truth, love degrades into sentimentality, but without love, truth will not be truly illumined, and so, it will not lead to it's ultimate consequence: Communion.
Beautiful. Can you recommend me some reading?
The first part of my comment was based on Teilhard's book: Science and Christ (English tr.: Rene Hauge; Harper & Row, New York), but there are a lot of excellent points also in Teilhard's The Phenomenon of Man. The viewpoint of seeing the mystery of the Incarnation as God's amazing, eternal plan (not "dependent" on or a "reaction" to the Fall) is woven throughout Franciscan theology, going back to Bl. Duns Scotus, the "Subtle Doctor." As always, the Catholic Church says that theology is not just abut this or that approach, as God could be "squeezed" into this or that school of thought (in this case, focusing mainly on the aspect of atonement or on mystical union), but BOTH!
@@dcnzsolt awesome, thank you!
I appreciate the Scotus view that God would bring about the Incarnation irrespective of the Original Sin.... because that was part of His Plan. Wow! How Great and Good our God is!
"If we had any possessions, we would need weapons & laws to defend them."
Saint Francis
That they both were invited to write Eucharistic hymns and when Bonaventure heard Thomas' he threw his own in the fire.
Does God the Father love us as much as he loves Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
What a question to ask.
Fr Richard Rohr wrote something to this effect: God loves us all *infinitely*. A fraction of infinity is still infinity. Divide infinity by 10 and it is still infinity, divide infinity by a million and it is still infinity... etc😀
It is interesting that in Peter Kreeft's series "Socrates Children" does not even get an important designation.
I am an OFS and wish less people would quote Richard Rohr. I met and attended a conference by Fr Dan Horan and find his work more adherent to the thought of St Francis. Mystical experiences do not cancel reason and that is where Aquinas kept theology from flying on one wing.
To the final question, 31:00, I would respectfully point out the final verse in Jesus's prayer to the Father in John's gospel (chapter 17, verse 26) i.e., that the love with which the Father loved the Son would be in us.
Wonderful reply. Thank you. I have a friend who would say the same thing….John 17:26. Do I know you by any chance?
Would love to see that video on univocity vs the analogous perspective. "while not denying the analogy of being à la St. Thomas, nonetheless holds to a univocal concept of being. It is important to note that Scotus does not believe in a "univocity of being", but rather to a common concept of being that is proper to both God and man, though in two radically distinct modes: infinite in God, finite in man." Maybe this is a misunderstanding by the wikipedia author on Univocity of being, but it sounded different than what Bishop Barron said.
Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas are both my favorites of all the great theologians. I also have a respect for Saint Francis, although I am not a Franciscan. I have always felt a bit dubious about Duns Scotus, and little you have said changes my mind. Perhaps he said some good things, but his influence going forward has been largely destructive. And, if, as many of the comments suggest, Fr. Richard Rohr is a good representative of his thought, then I will stick to Augustine and Thomas.
Will “This is my Body” book of Bishop Barron be available in the Philippines?
Can you point a meagre Protestant preacher towards a resource for learning Latin? I graduated my M.Div program in 2020 and I'm ready to jump back into some intellectually rigorous study. I'd be happy to attend a Roman Catholic program that would have me.
It seems odd to not know Greek and Latin both when you read the Bible, and such early texts. Of course we should grasp early Hebrew too. Is the etymology app of some help, I wonder. Maybe pinning down the time dated meaning isn't everything. All the Church Fathers did know. Maybe the essence is in their voluminous recapitulations..
Yeah I have seminary background in Hebrew and Greek. Latin however, I don’t have.
✨🙏🏼✨
Would love to hear your thoughts about some Franciscans move to a more liberal theology, like Richard Rohr, and the consequences it may have had on the church and Society
Woops It is interesting that in Peter Kreeft's series "Socrates Children" Scotus does not even get an important designation.
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Just to say your presence is appreciated✨
Stay blessed 🙏
What is your opinion of the Franciscan priests fr. Richard Rohr and fr. Dan Horan???
Good question
Exactly
St. Francis' life is a discourse on following the way of the Cross conforming one's life to Jesus Christ in the Church, the School of Divine Love. He embodied the sentence, "the Christian is obliged to be alter Christus, ipse Christus: another Christ, Christ Himself."
❤❤️🙏❤️🙏🙏
I have to say that the end of this episode made me cry. I know I may be oversimplifying things, but is Bishop Barron saying that God loves me less than my neighbor who does not have a child with severe special needs? In other words, because He Wills and created my neighbor's two daughters with typical and normal physical health and He Willed and created my daughter to be developmentally delayed and very medically fragile then He loves my neighbor and her children more? I hope Bishop Barron can maybe explain this more? I thought my suffering and her was for good and to sanctify, not because He loves us less?
Yes , his answer confused me as well . I need clarification on this. What did I miss ?
I am so sorry for your suffering from Bishop Barron’s answer. I believe that the very definition of God is Love, unconditional, ever present Love. I respectfully disagree that God loves anyone more than any one else or wills more good for one person than another person. “For God so loved the world…”. Julian of Norwich saw in her visions that the purpose of all creation is Love. All for Love. The belief that God loves some people more than others is the source of so much suffering in this world. And yes I also believe that those of us who bear great suffering whether it’s physical, mental or emotional suffering ….. if we endure with patience and surrender and offer it back to God that it is for our sanctification. St. Padre Pio, St. Therese of Lisieux…..did God love them less because they suffered physically? No…they became the greatest saints in the Church. But…the rational mind cannot answer a question about Love, only the heart. You are so very loved. ♥️
please comment on the coronation
But think of the great hymns wriien by Thomas Aquinas!
Dear Bishop, I always enjoy your talks. For the first time, I felt really uncomfortable when I heard your answer to the listener’s question (does God love some more than others ?). I certainly believe that the Father loves the Son more than any creature. He actually says it (“this is my beloved son”). I also believe that certain persons receive more graces than others : an obvious example is the BVM who is full of grace and received the grace to be free from sin). But does that mean that he loved her more than Cardinal George ? Adrien Candiard, a young French dominican says that each of us is God’s preferred child. As a father myself, this is what I have been trying to do. I do not GIVE to all my children the same… but I do not either LOVE one more than the other. I try to give them what they need and can receive. I would love your answer if you read this…
Where in the bible does it say everything has to be in the bible? Is the word trinity in the bible? 😊
On the contrary, I wouldn't say the divide between Bonaventure and Aquinas is so much rationalism vs mysticism (both had highly mystical foci outside their more strictly scholastic works), but rather a moderate lean to empiricism (Aquinas) vs a moderate lean to rationalism (Bonaventure).
This is seen most in the emphasis or critique of Divine Illumination and the soundness of the Ontological Argument.
I have looked at the Univocity of being again. As I understand it if I see beauty of a bluebell, I am seeing the same beauty that I see in God, indeed, the beauty of the bluebell is the beauty of God. If I see the goodness of a particular action, I see in it the same goodness that I see in of the goodness of God, indeed, I am seeing the goodness of God.
I don’t think that makes our goodness, or our beauty, a competitor with God, rather it sees our goodness as an expression of the goodness of God.
The Holy Spirit dwells in the Catholic Church since 33AD.
He leads her to all Truth and endows her with many gifts for 2 millenia already!!!
BISHOP BARRON PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT IS AI
Hello friend,
one must take into consideration the authors of biblical texts had a different perspective and expressions of everyday life. Don't forget scripture was inspired, utilizing these ancient human expressions and understanding. There is always a deeper meaning to the text than what our 21st century minds like to interpret. Hope that helps. Peace ✌️
Hi friends, please help my order find itself again.
Is it okay to choose light instead of focusing on those who choose darkness...there are so many and I am worn from a lifetime of it.
Trying to help or be an example is self defeating.
You say that Bonaventure was from an earlier, Platonic, more mystical tradition, while Thomas Aquinas put forth a more triumphal, rigorous, reconciliation of reason and the divine as in Aristotle. You say in Bonaventure Aristotles The Being as God's essence, is superceded by the Love, the Goodness, in Bonaventure. I wonder if Aquinas' last revelation then, that made him stop writing and declare his work was only chaff. Would this show that Bonaventure won?
Maybe I've missed something (I'll freely concede that I haven't looked into it in any detail) but isn't the weakness of the argument 'He could, it was fitting, therefore, he did' its middle proposition? Granting that God could bring about the immaculate conception, and that he always acts in the way which is most fitting, can we really deduce with such confidence what precisely is most fitting to God? Don't his ways transcend our ways and his thoughts our thoughts? Scripture is full of examples of God going out of his way to subvert human notions of fittingness in his saving actions (as it is written, 'The older will serve the younger'.) Given it is not directly revealed in Scripture, and the testimony of early tradition is not overwhelming (given even a Doctor of the Church like St Thomas doubted it) surely a certain reticence is appropriate in determining what is fitting for God to have done in this instance.
And Fr Richard Rohr...? I'll stick to Thomism thanks.
As a Secular Franciscan, We have some great intellectuals to day, Sister Deleon and Fr. Richard Rohor
Eh Fr. Richard Rohr is a bit sketchy with certain theological principles
Father Rohr holds explicitly heretical views. Pray for him.
@@occamnj He hurt the Franciscan tradition greatly.
I agree with these critiques of Rohr. I was formerly in a group that was reading one of his books. I found his views to be profoundly misguided. For one thing he has a tendency to separate Jesus and Christ. For another, his emphasis on love as acceptance and affirmation ignores our need for redemption from sin and self deceit.
I wonder if Richard Rohr regrets his liberal theology approach that he took for the last several decades.
Love these mini talks from the Bishop. However, I do have to disagree with him on his response to the question about God's love. 1) God - the simple and eternal Love Itself - His Love can not be diluted, even if measured by the apparent dispensation of His Good Gifts. 2) We don't know, eschatologically, what each being's final Glory is - and, as in 1) above, God's Glory is not diluted and 3) What purposes, in time, God uses each of us cannot be judged through our own eyes. I have a sneaking suspicion that the prayer life of a seemingly insignificant person may be helping The Logos with keeping the chaos and the abyss at bay...I could say more.
Merton liked Duns Scotus.
25:10
Maaf Bishop Baron, saya tau Kristian Prince itu tidak ada itu permainan kambing hitam, bahwa semua orang ingin menjadi penguasaan keserakahan dunia.
It is interesting that God has preference towards some and not all. Sounds like a human haha. Could it be possible that we perceive that because we can’t see the whole picture from this realm. I would assume a just God would be equal to all his creatures.
It comes from due proportion in philosophy.