Did Czerny write a piano version of this concerto? I found some sheet music for a czerny piano concerto that seems to be an almost exact copy of this concerto.
Paul Ryan Hyperion is coming out with a CD of Czerny piano concertos as part of their Romantic Piano Concerto series. Included is the F Major Concerto, Op. 28. As soon as I heard the clip from their website, I said to myself "Boy, this sure sounds familiar!" But I'd bet you that Giuliani cribbed from Czerny, rather than the other way around.
It might very well be that Diabelli had something to do with it being release for piano. Considering that there has always been more money in publishing less challenging piano works. From the nature of the orchestration it is better suited for the less sonorous terz guitar which both Diabelli and Guiliani wrote for. So who knows who wrote what? I suspect that it was a joint effort because Diabelli ran the show as far as the sales goes. It was common for artists to pay homage to others work and even praise them in the doing. How tainted our concept of music has become! Though it must be said Diabelli was a bit of jerk when it came to some aspects of publication, as Sor and others found. When you sing God Save the King/Queen little does one know that Sor wrote the thing as a four part harmony study for the classical guitar. It is feeble thinking that music creation is a single work of ones "intellectual property" at the best of times.
Eric Reesor From the date of the guitar concerto and the opus number of the Czerny, I'm betting that this is an arrangement for guitar by Giuliani, rather than Czerny arranging a guitar concerto for piano. It's an early Czerny concerto. Listening to the Op. 214 A minor Piano Concerto by Czerny, one can hear much more of the influence of Beethoven.
You would lose the bet. As far as the Beethoven influence, Beethoven and Giuliani knew each other and Beethoven was impressed with both Giuliani and the guitar which upon hearing Giuliani play in Vienna termed the guitar an "orchestra in miniature".
tchirn I do not think we can be certain of what actually happened. Czerny was a very talented student and friend of Ludwig but concentrated on teaching and composing more than performing. He played the Vienna premier of the 5 piano concerto because Beethoven was well on the way to becoming deaf at the time. Interestingly the thematic material and orchestral setting and piano score of the Czerny concerto in question here is similar but much more complex and expanded and more Hayden like in structure and thematic progression than the Giulianni work. Guiliani studied orchestration in Vienna and was reported to have played cello at the premier of Beethoven's 7th. Also in 1815, he was the official concert artist for the celebrations of the Congress in Vienna, a very prestigious appointment. At about the same time it in about 1815 it seems that Diabelli was starting to take some of the business away from Artaria who published the works of Guiliani from the time he moved to Vienna in 1806. So who knows when the opus 70 for terz and orchestra was originally written. By 1822 Giuliani was back in Rome where he wrote most of his works over the opus 100 mark. So unless the opus number is out of whack it was a middle Vienna work of Giuliani. It may very well be that the young 20 something Czerny greatly influenced the older Guilianni and helped him with orchestration, Czerny did not like to perform and very successfully taught piano, harmony and orchestration. Guilianni was incredible as a performing artist so the terz concerto might very well have been a collaboration. But to call either of their works a "crib" is a very jaded opinion. One must also not forget that music publishers were at best a little shady at that time as witnessed by the famous dispute Beethovan had over his works with Artaria. Diabelli being more of a politician than a composer smoothed over the same problems in regards to publication rights disputes with composers. All publishing houses however looked forward to the day an artist died though, so nothing has changed in that regard! The other distinct possibility is, as I stated, Diabelli convinced both of them to use the same thematic material. The reasons for this are that guitar was very popular at the time because it attracted the wealthy salon audience because of the nature of the instrument. Most music of this nature was sold on a subscription basis to wealthy clients, the common folk also loved and bought the songs of Giuiani and others particularly Schubert who Diabelli also helped make popular by publishing his songs. However his major works for orchestra were largely unheard in his short life. Either way the music publication business has clouded the origins and dates of a great many pieces of music to say the least. So after a little sleuthing it becomes obvious we may never know the answer as to who used the melodies first and when. And in reality it does not matter one whit. ;->
Mauro Giuliani had as godfather the illustrious Marquis Domenico Tupputi, patrician of Piacenza, and was baptized in the collegiate church of St. Adeno, his father was called in the city with the title of "Magnificent" his real name was supposed to be Joseph in honor of his maternal grandfather, but having come to light on the day of the celebration of the feast of the patron saints of the city of Bisceglie he was added the names Mauro Sergio Pantaleo. News from Casa Museo Mauro Giuliani of Cavalier Nicola Giuliani descendant of the Giuliani family and his biographer. www.associazionegiuliani.com
Wonderful that the memory and musical spirit of Mauro Giulianni is alive and well in Italy today. The musical spirit of his time echoes down to our time. I would love to eventually be able to find some of his original songs for Guitar and Voice. He did pay homage to Rossini with his later compositions. But if he was also a poet I do not know. But if he, as I suspect took folk poetry of Italy and set it to guitar and voice then let the songs be heard!
@@ericreesor6761 and possible to visit the house museum in his native Bisceglie Mauro Giuliani where we heirs and curators try to keep alive the memory through small cocnerti seminars and soon will see the light of my new book. My commitment as long as I can and the dissemination of his figure and not only the artistic lineage.
Yes the Czerny concerto has just been recorded for the first time and I must admit I felt disappointed on hearing the Czerny version that it was a familiar work and not something entirely new. It was dedicated to Hummel but is exactly the same except for the solo parts. Plagiarism and copyright didn't exist then. I think Czerny wrote it as a piano arranagement but the publisher may have changed it to being his composition and therefore a new work
Stuart McLaren you are absolutely correct. Today the concerto would be attributed to Giuliani/Czerny. One of the two editions of the concerto I hold - Cappi und Diabelli - clearly states it's a re-arrangement of Hummel's instrumentation of Giuliani's 3rd guitar Concerto, which is why Richard Bonynge and I decided not to record it.
Did Czerny write a piano version of this concerto? I found some sheet music for a czerny piano concerto that seems to be an almost exact copy of this concerto.
Paul Ryan Hyperion is coming out with a CD of Czerny piano concertos as part of their Romantic Piano Concerto series. Included is the F Major Concerto, Op. 28. As soon as I heard the clip from their website, I said to myself "Boy, this sure sounds familiar!" But I'd bet you that Giuliani cribbed from Czerny, rather than the other way around.
It might very well be that Diabelli had something to do with it being release for piano. Considering that there has always been more money in publishing less challenging piano works. From the nature of the orchestration it is better suited for the less sonorous terz guitar which both Diabelli and Guiliani wrote for. So who knows who wrote what? I suspect that it was a joint effort because Diabelli ran the show as far as the sales goes.
It was common for artists to pay homage to others work and even praise them in the doing. How tainted our concept of music has become! Though it must be said Diabelli was a bit of jerk when it came to some aspects of publication, as Sor and others found. When you sing God Save the King/Queen little does one know that Sor wrote the thing as a four part harmony study for the classical guitar. It is feeble thinking that music creation is a single work of ones "intellectual property" at the best of times.
Eric Reesor From the date of the guitar concerto and the opus number of the Czerny, I'm betting that this is an arrangement for guitar by Giuliani, rather than Czerny arranging a guitar concerto for piano. It's an early Czerny concerto. Listening to the Op. 214 A minor Piano Concerto by Czerny, one can hear much more of the influence of Beethoven.
You would lose the bet. As far as the Beethoven influence, Beethoven and Giuliani knew each other and Beethoven was impressed with both Giuliani and the guitar which upon hearing Giuliani play in Vienna termed the guitar an "orchestra in miniature".
tchirn I do not think we can be certain of what actually happened.
Czerny was a very talented student and friend of Ludwig but concentrated on teaching and composing more than performing. He played the Vienna premier of the 5 piano concerto because Beethoven was well on the way to becoming deaf at the time.
Interestingly the thematic material and orchestral setting and piano score of the Czerny concerto in question here is similar but much more complex and expanded and more Hayden like in structure and thematic progression than the Giulianni work.
Guiliani studied orchestration in Vienna and was reported to have played cello at the premier of Beethoven's 7th. Also in 1815, he was the official concert artist for the celebrations of the Congress in Vienna, a very prestigious appointment.
At about the same time it in about 1815 it seems that Diabelli was starting to take some of the business away from Artaria who published the works of Guiliani from the time he moved to Vienna in 1806. So who knows when the opus 70 for terz and orchestra was originally written. By 1822 Giuliani was back in Rome where he wrote most of his works over the opus 100 mark. So unless the opus number is out of whack it was a middle Vienna work of Giuliani.
It may very well be that the young 20 something Czerny greatly influenced the older Guilianni and helped him with orchestration, Czerny did not like to perform and very successfully taught piano, harmony and orchestration. Guilianni was incredible as a performing artist so the terz concerto might very well have been a collaboration. But to call either of their works a "crib" is a very jaded opinion.
One must also not forget that music publishers were at best a little shady at that time as witnessed by the famous dispute Beethovan had over his works with Artaria. Diabelli being more of a politician than a composer smoothed over the same problems in regards to publication rights disputes with composers. All publishing houses however looked forward to the day an artist died though, so nothing has changed in that regard!
The other distinct possibility is, as I stated, Diabelli convinced both of them to use the same thematic material. The reasons for this are that guitar was very popular at the time because it attracted the wealthy salon audience because of the nature of the instrument.
Most music of this nature was sold on a subscription basis to wealthy clients, the common folk also loved and bought the songs of Giuiani and others particularly Schubert who Diabelli also helped make popular by publishing his songs. However his major works for orchestra were largely unheard in his short life. Either way the music publication business has clouded the origins and dates of a great many pieces of music to say the least.
So after a little sleuthing it becomes obvious we may never know the answer as to who used the melodies first and when. And in reality it does not matter one whit. ;->
@6:40 by far the smoothest trill I have ever heard! Very nice
🎼🎶
🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼
Mauro Giuliani had as godfather the illustrious Marquis Domenico Tupputi, patrician of Piacenza, and was baptized in the collegiate church of St. Adeno, his father was called in the city with the title of "Magnificent" his real name was supposed to be Joseph in honor of his maternal grandfather, but having come to light on the day of the celebration of the feast of the patron saints of the city of Bisceglie he was added the names Mauro Sergio Pantaleo.
News from Casa Museo Mauro Giuliani of Cavalier Nicola Giuliani descendant of the Giuliani family and his biographer.
www.associazionegiuliani.com
Wonderful that the memory and musical spirit of Mauro Giulianni is alive and well in Italy today. The musical spirit of his time echoes down to our time. I would love to eventually be able to find some of his original songs for Guitar and Voice. He did pay homage to Rossini with his later compositions. But if he was also a poet I do not know. But if he, as I suspect took folk poetry of Italy and set it to guitar and voice then let the songs be heard!
@@ericreesor6761 and possible to visit the house museum in his native Bisceglie Mauro Giuliani where we heirs and curators try to keep alive the memory through small cocnerti seminars and soon will see the light of my new book.
My commitment as long as I can and the dissemination of his figure and not only the artistic lineage.
Yes the Czerny concerto has just been recorded for the first time and I must admit I felt disappointed on hearing the Czerny version that it was a familiar work and not something entirely new. It was dedicated to Hummel but is exactly the same except for the solo parts. Plagiarism and copyright didn't exist then. I think Czerny wrote it as a piano arranagement but the publisher may have changed it to being his composition and therefore a new work
Stuart McLaren you are absolutely correct. Today the concerto would be attributed to Giuliani/Czerny. One of the two editions of the concerto I hold - Cappi und Diabelli - clearly states it's a re-arrangement of Hummel's instrumentation of Giuliani's 3rd guitar Concerto, which is why Richard Bonynge and I decided not to record it.
Mi chiedevo del timbro particolare...è una chitarra diversa da quella moderna...
Si non è una chitarra diciamo "normale", ma si tratta di una chitarra terzina cioè intonata una terza più acuta
It’s not only a terz guitar, it’s also from 1825.
Giuliani e il meglior compositore per la chitarra dell'ottocento...e punto.
Concordo
discordo