HIFI, It’s Psychological. The Truth About Stereo Equipment Reviews & Human Hearing
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2022
- Humans are incredibly susceptible to bias and we tend to hear what we want to hear. This is why we have so many people claiming that amps, CD players, cables, etc. sound differently from one another. But if they were put to the test, these people most often could never actually tell the difference. There’s a huge psychological element to stereo high fidelity equipment that few want to admit.
Here’s a link to the video I reference,
“Build a Vintage Stereo. Components & What Every Stereo Buyer Should Know”
• Build A Vintage Stereo...
To visit my Amazon Shop, please click:
www.amazon.com/shop/fluxconde...
#stereo #hifi #hifireview - Наука та технологія
So many people NEED to watch this video. 90% of sound quality at least is from speakers and the room.
Somewhat agree except must add in the recording itself, the very biggest variable!
I agree 100%. I have a vintage system with vintage speakers. Upgrades have been done and recaps of course, but it sounds sublime to me and that's all that really matters. If it sounds good to you, then it's good.
For me it's mood. If I'm in a right mood, I can sit and listen to my iphone speakers all night. If I'm not in the right mood even my tube amp and 'good' speakers can be tedious and unenjoyable to listen to. I also have to trust my ears and nothing I read. My preferences are not the same as most people who take the time to review products. I've found my own personal taste is high efficiency horn speakers hooked up to a modern tube amplifier. It gives me the best facsimile of human singers and horns being there in the room with me. I can't even hear above 13khz at this point in my life. Cassette tapes have become more enjoyable just because I can't hear the hiss any more :)
Yep. I made a living in the consumer audio industry for many years. People will genuinely believe they hear what you tell them you can hear, especially after investing large sums of money.
Another voice of reason. There are a few of you still left, thank goodness.
Yep - I sold audio for 8 years in the 70s
A lot of hype, opinions, and salesmanship
There’s a reason there are no college courses in consumer electronics lol
I once bought some high end speakers that in the long run were mediocre. When the maker/dealer was setting them up, he was feeding me lines about what I should be hearing. What I hear was my bank account draining from overspending. B&W dealers do this routinely.
@@scottlowell493 Well, evidently you heard what you should be hearing at some point: You purchased the speakers.
@@6StringPassion. It's like all high end audio. Self-convincing based on hype.
Exactly! It's psychological. Never underestimate the power of autosuggestion, it makes cables sound different. Double-blind tests on unbiased subjects solve this to some extent but not entirely.
In the realm of audio snob magic and golden ears, they dismiss results of abx/dbt because it exposes their bias and imaginary ability. So does a pure tone hearing test. They claim they can hear clouds bumping together, UNTIL the tests disprove them.
Yes.
I mostly agree with everything you said. Such has been my experience too! That said, I wanted to reply (way too late) to the question that was submitted regarding the Ohm Walsh 2000 speakers. My experience was that they sounded a bit disappointing in a large living room/great room. Just overly “thin”, but that was significantly improved with Dirac room correction and a bump of the bass curve. However, when I eventually relocated them into my bedroom, they suddenly sounded absolutely glorious (no equalization needed)! Just an amazing transformation, merely from being in a different and smaller room.
I have the audiovector r1 arrete speakers, and Gryphon Diablo 120 amplifier. The best system i have ever owned. It's amazing.
Modern amplifiers DON'T sound the same.
I guess if you drop them on a concrete floor there may be discernible differences in the sound of most modern amps. Otherwise, not so much.
@@FluxCondenser Either you need to go and listen to different amplifiers, or get your ears checked out.
Yes, I’ve done both. I also regularly build, service and bench test amplifiers.
Very much agree with your opinions. Peter Aczel, of the Audio Critic, said all properly designed amps, when driven within their output limits, and volume matched within 0.1 dB, are indistinguishable from each other. Double blind tests will prove this, 100% of the time. The placebo effect is extremely powerful, and often, the only one who can hear a difference, is the person paying for it. As for speaker sound, Ed Villchur, of AR, inventor of the acoustic suspension speaker, stated that if 2 different speakers sound different, one of them is innacurate, and perhaps both are.
Yes, to accept that two amps sound noticeably different from each other is an acceptance that either one or both of those amps isn’t truly hi-fi. A hifi amp is supposed to pass the original signal on to the speakers as unaffected as possible and merely add the current gain. If one claims an amp has a certain “sound signature” then that’s an admission that the amp is not performing its job correctly.
Hifi means negating “sound signatures” which really can only be considered a type of distortion.
In music amplifiers, yes, these are supposed to impose a sound signature. These are musical instruments, in a way, and distortion can add a wonderful effect in many cases.
A high fidelity amplifier, as well as all other high fidelity equipment should not color the sound in any way. It should reproduce the music as recorded as faithfully as possible.
From needle or laser pickup to the speaker drivers, the one thing that has the largest influence on your hifi is us. The human and what mood we're in. Very expensive kit is not worth it. Better than budget is all we need.
Great vidéo sir. By the way your channel about vintage equipment is very good.
Thank you, my friend.
Great comments. Based on lots of experience and formal training in sensory and experimental psychology, I couldn't agree more! Well done my friend!
Now, where did I put my cable risers?
Ha! Thank you, thank you.
@@FluxCondenserThank you!
Yes, I fully agree with you. I would like to add some tips. Most would say as long as you like the sound but unfortunately that "like" is usually temporary and you will continue changing equipment forever but still end up with rubbish sound even after spending a lot of money. Find out ( scientific approach) how acoustic instruments example a piano, strings, drums and voices supposed to sound, then look for a system that produces the closest to the original instruments sound.
This will be your permanent system.
Can't really argue with you, Flux. People will prefer their favored frequency coloration and distortion types every time.
Great your channel is trying to help others. Although I Can’t agree that all amplifiers sound the same. Speakers can indeed sound vastly different. But my FISHER receiver doesn’t sound like my Sony ES integrated. They are very similar in build quality. Both are class AB. But the electronics are different. Different output transistors, filter capacitors, biasing, transformers, and other factors will all affect how an amplifier sounds. They may sound close to one another, but still different.🙂
I've worked in pro audio for decades and always think it's funny people talk about having "expectation bias" or placebo effect. I make about 50 changes per day to EQs and compression settings that are smaller sounding than most hi-fi tweaks like cables, capacitors etc. We choose pre-amps, amps, converters, and microphones by ear. Are those 50 changes just me "hearing things"? You do realize this is how music is made.
Good video with many great points. I'll add just one comment about "speakers I like might not be what you like." Research by Sean Olive of Harmon fame showed that people universally prefer speakers that have a flat response. Not just audiophiles, but audio professionals and even the general public. So that's what I always tell people to aim for, rather than speakers that are "voiced" to a particular coloration. Of course, low distortion is just as important, but few speaker makers publish that info!
Yes, and yet when given tone controls and equalizers, most people boost the EQ artificially, believing that’s what sounds better. There is certainly personal choice, but for me, my pursuit in hifi is recreating the program material accurately and only making such adjustments to correct something faulty.
@@FluxCondenser One of the biggest faults with most hi-fi systems is a lack of bass traps and other acoustic treatment. That improves clarity more than pretty much anything else you can get or do.
Yes, and simply moving speakers to different locations and experimenting with toe-in I’ve found quite effective.
@@FluxCondenser Right, finding the best speaker and listener placements is the first step. That's best done by measuring the low frequency response as you experiment..
@@FluxCondenser As do I. What speakers have the best realism? To me even a million dollar MBL system only came close to my idea of it.
Can’t agree with you more. Shopping for speakers is so subjective. And shopping on line even more difficult. What helps me I’ve found a couple of reviewers that have similar tastes and as far as I can tell, have similar hearing range as I do. So I can use their videos to weed out speakers I know I’m not going to like. But it’s not an exact science. About the return policy, get it in writing and fully understand all the conditions before you purchase any speaker for a trial. Good video, very informative. 👍
Thanks, James.
I'm completely new to this and while I'm searching for equipment and I see lots of people saying all amps are the same I'm curious to see/know what amp people own. I mean, I'm sure most people will not own any kind of amp, but I most be wrong. With that said, if all amps sound the same, which one should I buy?
Gone through alot of speakers and while I prefer small standmounts, the ones I have were purchased were at least 40% off NIB and I have preferred them to more expensive audiophile speakers overall for my preferences and room. The four sets are easy to drive and with a small sub, sound great. While each sounds a bit different, I can swap out for a different presentation. Also going to sell my large amp as I have found a small 50 watt that outperforms many other amps at higher prices and is sufficient for my needs.
I listen to how classical music, as well as jazz and voice sound and if I like it, that's how I roll. I'm sure my hearing isn't flat so there's that as well. Regardless if the frequency curve of a speaker is flat or lumpy or whether the salesperson says otherwise, I go with my gut, and ears. The things I want from a salesperson in a demo, is to keep quiet and switch speakers when I signal.
Very true Flux so many variables. I agree with you. Return policy is so important. So much of the new gear I have seen reviewed is just garbage when it shows up.
Competent reviewers have heard of ALL those speakers, but what are your thoughts on "hair dryers".
For years, I’ve been an avid reader of WhatHifi. I bought into a few of their favourites before I realised the trends. It’s not independent journalism, it’s a highly corrupt and greedy industry, especially in the UK.
I’ve enjoyed my basic Marantz amp more than the Cyrus at several times the price. The KEF and Acoustic Energy speakers sounded ordinary. My Pioneer home cinema system was nothing special.
I feel sorry for people who spent thousands, rather than hundreds based on reading subsidised reviews.
You could still buy older kit second-hand at a fraction of the price, even a few years after release. Imagine owning the same kit but at third or quarter of the price. The whole electronics market is a con.
I completely agree with speakers making the most difference. I have used a Douk VU3 to do lots of AB listening. I can pick out differences in speaker pairs.
I can also pick out differences in amplification after tediously matching up the sound level.
The difference is very small, but it remains distinguishable. This is in regard to a Technics SU-G70 and a restored Sansui 4000. All the midrange and highs are clearer such that the instrument placement in the soundstage is sharper.
This difference is far greater when doing the same test between the Sansui 4000 and an Aiyana A08pro.
I would say to a certain threshold there are differences, but you will hit diminishing returns very fast.
Of course Speakers are a much bigger contrast.
I think broad claims merit experimentation. Noticing differences is fun.
100% correct,
How much technology do we really need in order to produce 20Hz-20Khz? been doing this since the 1940's...
I own multiple tube amps, multiple Class-AB amps (including stuff I built myself on PCBs from scratch),
within the same technology group, amps sound very similar or even identical,
A very good tube amp (in specs) is very similar or identical to a good SS class-AB, but still different when out of spec, or simply low spec (such as 0.5% or more distortion for tube, and MANY class-AB SS actually have notch crossover distortion at low volume due to being under biased) ,
good Class-D can sound the same as a good tube-PP and a good SS-class-AB, but some cheap class-Ds are iffy at any volume and load.
There are differences when having difficult speaker loads and high power, when you're getting close to operating envelope, but causal listening? 0.05% distortion amps are the same regardless of technology and hype and label, as long as it is running well within operating specs.
14AWG Walmart cable sounds the same as 14AWG (place name here)
digital bits are digital bits, most DAC chips are so good at 0.0005%, I think some exotic manufacturers with FPGA based DACS, deliberately introduce unknown processing to make them sound different.
snake oil galore and parting people from their $$$, why does vinyl even exist in 2020?
Well said. Thank you.
Well said. Too many audiophiles try to tell others what sounds good to them. It’s a thing, cognitive bias. I see your post on Facebook got removed from the audio enthusiasts group. Too many truths to bear.
I agree that loudspeakers vary and so much so in different rooms. I get more excited by the new developments in DSP that have the potential to really shape sound in rooms as well as room treatments. That rather than HiRes digital or frighteningly expensive vinyl setups.
Well, thank you for the support. It got removed from the group? Yikes! Great that you mentioned DSP. I agree, this is the future.
The worst ones are those that deny abx/dbt results while at the same time, telling you what your system sounds like without hearing it.
@@scottlowell493 and without the person who owns the systems ears! Crazy.
@@scottlowell493 and without the person who owns the systems ears! Crazy.
@@NeilLavitt yeah, read any audio forum. Self-appointed audio deities will judge. "I own a.b.c...in this room"
Audio God online: "Well, this is where you are lacking..."
I built a vintage HeathKit AA-15 in 1971. 😊
I was 18 at the time and recently heard about the term “audiophile”. I fancied being a sort-of audiophile until the word started sounding like audio snob. The thought of developing a permanent crick in my neck from holding my nose in the air was unappealing.
I stream audio files now. they sound great (at 71) and it’s convenient.
This is hogwash. I have four integrated amplifiers at my house right now and every one of them sounds distinctly different. Heck, there’s a UA-cam channel that does AB comparisons between amplifiers and you can’t hear the detail but you can definitely hear a difference even after room mic and data compression.
What are you going on about?! I can definitely hear a great improvement with the Snake Oyl brand HiFi speaker cables and unobtanium-plated mango banana plugs… :P
It really is personal taste, there are some speakers that sound similar, but most don't. I think sonus faber vs say focal kantas are good example of how different they can be. Reviews can sadly be misleading, I think buchardt 400 mk2 were so overhyped that when I actually head them, it was a big let down. Book shelf only from my limited experience, I'd say the bmr are a sleeper for the money. Then there are kit speakers, this hobby is just a rabbit hole to get into.
Amazing - do you do videos for wine? It needs to be between 12 and 13.5 alcohol and you are good to go. And please do not go for the hype of the bottle. Any box will do.
Well, unlike amps and most cables which mostly sound alike, different wines taste very differently from one another.
it was common in the 70's that the typical "stereo" stores would have 8 Ohm resistors in series on the speakers that were the house brand or the high profit speakers. Obviously this would drop the speaker output by 3dB. Not enough to detect but 80% percent of the time the customer would pick the louder speaker. Working for a speaker manufacture one of my jobs was to build the A/B switching systems.
And in the eighties and nineties, Monster Cable had in-store demos that clearly demonstrated the superiority of their cables. What they didn't show, though, was that the cable under comparison was insufficient due to its extreme length and thin gauge. Certainly not an honest comparison.
Well, I certainly hope (and expect) it was a solid no. I don’t know how some people sleep at night when they spend their days taking advantage of and cheating people.
And what’s why I collect higher end vintage hifi. It can do 99% of what higher end modern gear can do but at a fraction of the cost. If that last 1% matters to you then great! But it will cost you $$$
This is very good information, but double blind studies are just as flawed as everything else. In them you have to consider the person's hearing, what is the person's emotional state at the time, how long will the blind study take and how many samples will it take to get to the result.
What is the person's personal preferences, some like more bass, some treble and others midrange. As well and other medical issues and results can be skewed by the person doing the study to suit a purpose (hopefully this isn't the case)
There is no full proof way. The best thing is to do your research, buy your product and enjoy the music, because this is very subjective hobby, but it is also fun and very emotionally rewarding.
Spend what you can afford regardless of how much or how little, because the only person that has to like your system is you and the only person that is accountable for your budget is you and your family.
ZU dirty weekends are awesome!!!!!!
Are they? Do you own a pair? Tell us more about the company. I’m really not familiar with them.
exactly! every headphone review I ever wrote started with a disclaimer that the entire "review" is basically nothing more than an opinion piece based on my own individual perception, heavily influenced by my experiences, musical selection and anatomy ;) you always have to listen to the same cans (or speakers) yourself, with your own reference material, and make up your own damned mind. it's all in your head, both figuratively and in fact literally. especially people well into their 50s lecturing people in their early 30s on audio fidelity can respectfully sit down and shut up. most of your upper frequency hearing acuity is likely GONE at that age, you're describing nothing but auditory hallucinations. they'll never hear what you think you hear. unfortunately, the world of hi-fi is full of pretentious snake oil merchants (and snake oil drinkers).
I wouldn’t say high frequency hearing is gone in people in their fifties. Not remotely so. I’m 55 and can hear above 16 kHz. Very, very little musical information above that range. I’m not not hearing just about anything a twenty year old does.
Lets not forget about Presbycusis. It will hit most humans starting at a certain age, so take care of your ears .
Yes. Here’s a video I made that touches on the subject: ua-cam.com/video/Wl0Juuu3IGo/v-deo.html
Skipped the hifi rat race and have Genelec in my living room.
H2 is more pleasing than H3 to my ears... 🥰
Let me start out by saying, I agree!
With that said, there are some amplifiers that are built to sound a certain way. Notably Carver's TFM line definitely have a distinct "sound" to them. I have two TFM-15cb's that I rescued from the scrap heap, new caps, resoldering tons of connections and a lot of Deoxit later, they are now playing like new. When doing an A/B test between either of the TFM's and my McIntosh MC7100, or MC7108, which are from the same era, I can tell they are playing 100% of the time, even blind. However, I cannot tell the difference between my two McIntoshs. Of course these are 30 year old amps and Carver always had his own way of doing things. Personally, I fall on the side of the fence that thinks Bob is a genius, but let the marketing department get away with murder.
With that said! Yes, modern manufacturers make their amplifiers "transparent" as they should, since any "effects" or equalization is best left to devices designed to do those tasks.
A huge grain of salt? Salt grains are always tiny compared to good well engineered amplfiers. What is a good well engineered amplifier. Is it something like a modern Toyota, dull but reliable?
If dull means the amp sounds as good as any other amp for the given power output (flat response, undetectable distortion to the human ear) then yes that’s a well engineered modern, boring amp. And by that definition I’d define a “non-boring” amp as something that is unnecessary expensive or that adds colorization.
@@FluxCondenser Can you imagine an amp having added colorization that sounds pleasant to the ear? Or an amp that has a flat frequency curve, very low (measured) distortion but sounds rather harsh to the ear. Can you imagine that we're still not able to quantize a to the ear good sounding amplifier? Or even that like the postulation you made about speakers that there are amplifiers that sound pleasant for one individual listener and nor for another?
I accept that not everyone prefers a flat, uncolored sound. But most amps provide just that. Flat, uncolored sound. And that’s why they mostly sound exactly alike.
@@FluxCondenser I've worked in several audio stores years and years back and their was always a struggle between basically two schools the objective and subjective one.
We sold Levinson, Threshold, McIntosh, Denon (PRA-6000, POA 8000's) Acoustat, JBL, Altec so a lot of American stuff. Every time I thought well this brand is really good and that one is a lot less I always had to swallow my dualistic opinions after a while. Recently I acquired a McIntosh 2205 which had some problems. I just swapped out all electrolytes and some other stuff like old diodes and my bias was very much against it based on a MC2105 I had when I was a student psychology. When I connected it to my Infinity QLS's it not only could drive this tough load, but it sounded great too!
In short you're right peoples belief, bias and dualistic tendencies about things exaggerate the differences between stereo stuff. That's how most people operate.
Like 90% of amps. Speakers more than likely have the same guts inside, most of it is marketing. It is mostly the cabinet shape and form anyway. Going to take Cain for that I know
Hm. While you certainly know my opinion about amps, I can say that the “guts” of speakers do vary considerably as does the sound.
I think all audio review channels on UA-cam sound the same.
Hahaha, there is a huge difference in all audio components and loudspeakers in their differences of sound quality today and yesteryear. Eg, Chord speaker cables sound vastly different from nordost speaker cables.
Nonsense.
all amps sound the same ! You should not be allowed to speak publicly about hi-fi after this statement !
No.
Very un-American statement. You shouldn’t be allowed to vote.
No, it isn't psychological. The mind may be able to see but not hear.
There are plenty of these " so called " knowledgeable in this thing of the audio, that the only thing they do is spreading trashy opinions about what audiophilie is after all. You do get plenty changes with the tweeks on an audio System, some, better than others. Sometimes, you also believe that paying more for a cable or any other component, will increase the results, but it doesn't. But you do get results out of the changes and it's note psycological! Those are only "talking parrots ", wanting to get auditions with their online videos, a plague that nowadays is also spreading like a plague online. In the real world, we the audiphiles, don't even use any king of graphics nor measurements made by anyone. What we do, is the live experiencing, with our systems. That's how the real world works. Something might work for some, not at all for plenty, it all depends on the sinergie that was made between all audo components and, most important of all, the room's acoustic of each place. None is the same, anywhere, and we also have differences in how we hear the soundwaves. Not all ears are have the same shape as said, sound waves behave very differently from one to another. Videos like this are abslolutelly trash, nothing else. I have more than 40 years experience with high-end audio, and i«'m still learning new things, as according to the implementation of new items, or just with the posictioning of the system. The learning happens with the experience, and each of us, has it's own experience with the own system. No none is able to talk about someone else's system, by saying " i have the magic formula for you! " No one! Period. Like, no one is able to say those nonscenses that this guy is telling with his video! That's just BS!...
Why do people such as you with the weakest arguments always have the worst spelling and grammar? A lack of education in most instances.
Have you done any active testing between equipment and cables ? It, again, amasses me that you can put forward a claim like this. I have spent years worth of time doing active listening and can demonstrate easily the difference between cables and equipment. The only way you can make your claim to be true is that the equipment you are using are all worth less that 999$. But you do not need 100.000$ worth of equipment to hear the difference. The brain is powerful, yes. But if you approach your session correctly you can bypass that bias.
Yes, I’ve spent countless hours on such endeavors over the last three decades. And I own hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cables, high fidelity equipment, sound rooms and test gear.
@@FluxCondenser You are pitiful, you can have billions in equipment if you don't have ears
So if I own equipment that's on the 300 price range it's worthless?
So tired of this argument, if you can’t hear a difference, it’s all Psychological. Maybe you’ve just got poor hearing and can’t identify your mothers voice on the phone. Go listen for yourselves and if you can’t hear a difference just buy any old system and get on with enjoying your music. Don’t forget Music it’s a Beautiful Thing
You doth protest too much.
It's your problem if you can't hear it, don't wine about it.
I’ll whine about anything I please on my channel. Including your atrocious attitude (and spelling).
Sorry not impressed there are so many different ways why this is wrong I am just going to say he obviously hasn't got the listening ears needed to answer such questions.
He hasn’t your ears and you don’t have his. He does make lots of sense though. It’s a personal journey and you have yours. In this case he was really pointing out that the speakers would make the biggest difference.
👂🦇
So many ways to say why I’m wrong and yet you neglect to mention one of them.
My God, you're so misguided! You really can't hear differences in amplifiers? If I may propose, pick whatever speakers you wish first amplified with, for example, a Class D amp, then compare the sound with same setup using a tube amp. If you can't discern any difference, I'm afraid you were short changed in the genetics lottery, and it's a crying shame really because you're missing out on one of the most beautiful and important aspects of this hobby! Please ask yourself a couple of questions:
1- Is it likely that you (and an amazingly small minority of people) are hearing 'correctly' and the vast majority of audio enthusiasts are all being hoodwinked? (look at how many people have DISSAGREED with you just in the comments you've received alone!)
2- Is it possible that a nearly trillion dollar industry is largely built on falsehoods and psychological trickery?
I believed you've been so negatively biased that you may not have given it an open minded listen.