The problem, I think, is a lack of commitment to a vision. The DCEU lacked it and Gunn's remarks are also wishy-washy. The fact that we are struggling to interpret what is going on is indicative of this very problem.
I think it's important to remember that this isn't the first film of the new DCU, it's the last film of the old DCEU. And given the colossal mess that the DCEU became, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest it up would backfire. They don't need to explain why they're starting over. The Batman did fine without having to explain why it didn't star Ben Affleck. I think most movie-goers want movies, not franchises. And when the ad campaign is selling the film on how it's a continuation of a series audiences haven't been keeping up with or didn't particularly like, it's only gonna serve to keep people away. Regardless, Gunn would have been a poor studio head if he publicly panned his studio's big tentpole. He had to sing the damn thing's praises, whatever it looked like. That's just good business etiquette. But now it's out and it's a dud, I think the best thing everyone at the studio can do is just stop talking about it, Ezra Miller, poor Zack Snyder, and his failed attempt at a shared universe. Gunn's job is to start from scratch. This film's flop proved that more than ever. I think we won't know what the new DCU is until Gunn's Superman Legacy film actually comes out. Until then, it's foolish to speculate.
@@rottensquid I think James Gun still has not 100% confirmed it is a total reboot he is making, he keeps saying ambiguous phrasings like it will be a semi-reboot (i.e. some characters may continue and therefore their films), blue beetle may or may not be a DCU film already or not, etc and etc.
Not necessarily. I think The Flash flop just proves audiences are not stupid. People dont like Ezra Miller and they are not gonna pay money to see him for 2 plus hours, even if you got Michael Keaton Batman in there. But I do think Superman: Legacy has to succeed. If Superman flops then i think its pretty much game over cause you cant build a cinematic universe on a flop. Iron-Man kicked off the MCU and Tony Stark was the foundation for the MCU for a decade. If Superman/Clark Kent fails then the DCEU fails
I am with you on this. I saw the movie and thought it was a really good. If Ezra had not been a crazy person this film would have had a larger box office draw.
@@itsfedorahere9985Gunn was responsible for the last minute reshoots and multiple versions of this movie existing. He himself admitted to submitting "notes" after his initial viewing.
To me, Ezra was never held accountable. If I had done any of that. I would be in jail. I'm also a father if 6. I won't see Flash in theaters because of that. Laws are laws, rich movie stars need to be held accountable also.
Exactly, it is ridoculous what he has so far gotten away with. It baffles my mind how the rich and famous get no consequences. Low movie profits is not even a punishment... oh they make slightly LESS ridiculous amounts of money? If any normal person had the evidence and charges against them that Ezra has we would be in jail and with barely any chance to live a normal life ever again. Why should Ezra get to walk free?
Never held accountable, given excuses, given pity, then brought back for reshoots, and then given praise by hollywood writers and YT people like Screencrush.... And everyone else stayed away from the spiked kool-aid
Another issue I think is that many DCEU movies are connected to the events of Man of Steel such as Zod invading earth and most people don't really remember or connect with that original event in a powerful way that resonated and so the fact that it is used as the connective tissue (eg: reason Batman is mad at Superman in BvS, and the major external conflict in The Flash) across DCEU seems weak
@chethanforyou my guy, Man of Steel showed how badly Zod's invasion truly was for the city, the people of Earth, and Earth itself. Thousands of people died and unlike most comicbook movies that clearly have a high death toll from the climatic battle, BvS shows the consequences of the last movie. The main one being that the invasion is being treated like 9/11 while in every other movie when the US is under attack, the government ironically does nothing, not even acknowledge what happened.
Ezra Miller is why I didn't spend my money on it. Super bummed I missed Keaton on the big screen. But I wasn't risking helping a successful box office sending a message that Ezra Miller and their violent issues and accusations involving kids "didn't matter". Love seeing Joanna Robinson on your videos. She's great!
yes, ezra miller ruined its promotions of the movie, cgi with the babies scenes and complex multi universe was very ordinary, and what with george clooney?
Ryan it’s because of Ezra Miller, everyone I know wants to watch it but on principle are not supporting it at the box office. When Warner Bros decided to back them after the things they did, it was game over.
If they support it via streaming, they're still supporting the movie. Besides, everyone involved was already paid. They won't see any returns from box office though.
On top of the story premise being such a weak hook lol if you don't like Ezra, seeing multiple of them is literally a nightmare. The timing couldn't be worse
Why give a shit about an actors off screen exploits? It's not like he's the first actor to drink on top of his psych meds and show his ass in public. What does that have to do with the movie though? The way I see it, for the runtime of a film or TV show, those actors don't exist. When did people start caring about everything except the actual art that we're here for to begin with?
Ezra Miller is just one person out of more than 2000 cast and crew members who worked on this movie. According to IMDB there were 2984 cast and crew members on the original Avatar film. The first Avengers movie in 2012 had a crew of 2718 while Iron Man 3 credits a whopping 3310 crew members during its end credit scroll. Finally, it took *1400* VFX artists 16 weeks just to create the epic final battle sequence in Avengers Endgame. 🤯 So next time you buy that $15 movie ticket, forget about the dozen or so actors in the movie and maybe focus instead on the thousands of people who tirelessly worked their asses off behind the scenes for longer hours and far less pay to bring your favorite comic book superheroes and their CGI action packed adventures to life.
Um unless I'm mistaken Man if Steel did not make more than The Dark Knight worldwide. The Dark Knight grossed over a billion dollars & was the first Superhero Comic book film to do so.
Disney has a strong corporate structure and a clear vision for the MCU, but most importantly they enforced that vision on every movie released. They were patient and disciplined on their ultimate goal and it worked. The DCU has none of that. Every movie is it’s own entity and nothing connects one movie to the other while also rushing the Justice League when they didn’t earn that moment. DCU doesn’t care about working towards anything, they just want make a quick buck.
In my personal opinion there is no such thing as superhero fatigue. The set dressing (superheroes are not a genre) is so saturated at this point, that the standards of the audience is higher so lazy writing or poor marketing turn off a significant portion of them. I bet if westerns had the audience interaction that we have now They'd have had a better idea what the audience did and did not like and they'd still be made currently, but since all they had at the time is box office and critics opinions they decided that people were tired of westerns and phased them out.
Superhero fatigue will only be a thing once universally acclaimed cbm don’t do well in the box office which I don’t see happening anytime soon. This films far too divisive to use as a barometer for superhero fatigue
@@Ironlantern723I agree. I enjoy superhero films a lot and always will. I just hate and grow tired of these movies that are cash grabs and have no real soul behind them
It's really reductive to blame this movie flopping on a single issue. Ezra's issues, quality issues with the movie itself including the awful CGI, cringeworthy moments, bad taste and meaningless cameos, and a dead universe ALL played a role. There were too many things playing against this movie. I don't think the new DCU is doomed to fail but the storytelling and casting really need to be excellent for it to have a chance at succeeding.
Financially there is a second problem. Elemental flopped on the first weekend. Both films released on the same day. Neither did well, but two issues prevented flash from getting steam. 1 ezra 2 talk. People have been talking about flash to much. No one talked about elemental
I would add timing and overdone themes and concepts like time travel and the multiverse. Especially when there are films that showcased those ideas and themes recently. And did it well.
@@Ked7 Too much talk, and not about the film, about the various messes surrounding the film. In the end, the DCEU was done in because its controversies became a bigger story than the films themselves.
I think this is the crux of the problem "the storytelling and casting really need to be excellent". And saddly i dont think they can create an excellent story. What they NEED to do is stop creating new stories based on the comics and just create the stories in the comics. Take Flashpoint, the comics were so well writen that nothing hollywood comes up with would really compare. So why not just adapt the well writen comic book into a well adapted movie? Just the treatment for batman in the flashpoint story arc...im sorry but what they did to batman in the movie is an insult in comparison.
It's not doomed, it's just that people are expecting higher quality in storytelling, action and character development than the DCEU. Superman Legacy just do happens to have higher expectations than before
@@brownjordan0523the Flash show was way better than the movies and they should have just taken those actors to the big screen but were either scared or caught in legal binds with copyrights or something bc it is a no brainer to take an established audience and move them to another medium
Gunn only impacted the way it ended not the movie itself. If the movie was a let down then the one to blame are the directors to that movie who didn't want to fire Erza. He's also the one that didn't want to do the movie again and that Director wasn't Gunn. He was the one that gave Gunn no choice in the matter.
Connected movie universes have created a problem where studios and fans are now too focussed on what's coming next instead of the thing that's being presented to them now. People don't want to see The Flash because 'what's the point if the universe is being rebooted?' Instead of seeing it because maybe it'll be a really good movie.
Good point. I personally like the Snyder DC movies (including the rarely mentioned Watchman) because I’m an adult male that likes my movies geared toward adult sensibilities. If I wanted to see a light hearted, joke filled, family friendly version of the superhero movie, I’d watch the animated versions that are made for the broader audience. For example, I probably won’t go see the Blue Beetle in theaters because it looks silly and doesn’t appeal to me.
The real problem that no one talks about is how anyone especially a casual fan can see a clip on TikTok of a major moment and not need to see the movie because of spoilers
Yes, in my opinion social media destroys the movie hype. Such as the Spiderman NWH leaks, or the Flash. I liked the movie personally, but I think we shall have a bit of patience because Rome wasn't built in a day. We live in a period that we expect great things to happen fast but in reality we need a bit of faith. Like come on, in 2025 we will have Superman Legacy and The Batman Part II which can put in acceleration all our hopes. Lets not forget that when Pattinson was casted in 2019 people laughed at the decision but then years later we have this brilliant performance. In conclusion we need patience in order to get great DCU projects. Have some faith.
Warner Bros. Didn't listen to the fans. That's the problem. Cavill was a much loved Superman and fans wanted to see more. DC was never meant to copy marvel.
I like Henry Cavill a lot but I didn't like his Superman. IMO Snyder didn't understand the character and Henry was stuck with the script that he was given. IMO Henry Cavill could have become the definitive Superman if he had the right script and a different director.
@@perceivedvelocity9914 I'm so tired how everyone says Snyder didn't understand Superman. He did because everyone complained that Superman Returns was too goofy like and was too much like the Reed films so Snyder gave them something different and had it grounded in reality BUT still in a comic world. It was also Superman discovering who he is and what his role is in planet Earth knowing he doesn't fit in with the world by being it's savor or it's destroyer.
She hit the nail on the head at the end. Make objectively good films, and the dedicated fanbase is to these comic book characters will show up to see them
But what is their target audience?? You cannot make a movie for everyone, so you have to stay dedicated to one particular tone and mannerisms in the movie which will be replicated to the other movies in the franchise.
and what is an objectively good film? art is not objective, its subjective a film made for audience a will not go well with audience b the only way to make a "perfect" film is to make a film that reaches all audiences. however, that would simply become boring, because it wouldn't be able to take big risks
James Gunn isn't for the comic book fans, he wants to introduce "unknown" characters so DC fans won't bombard him on the big hitters aka the A list characters, problem is what makes you think you can get C list and F list characters right when you can't get your big hitters right? I feel Gunn entering the picture complicated things even more but some may argue that Hamada doesn't have a vision but he was taking it slow and releasing solo films to recover from the disaster of the past which is good, Aquaman and the first Shazam film succeeded. Gunn's Suicide Squad and Peacemaker also succeeded tho, WW84, Black Adam and The Flash all failed, the Batman film is its own entity and part of its own universe. The main problem is that these people in charge don't understand these characters which is why an actual fan being president of DC films would be the right step(of course with some business knowledge as well), nobody should take charge cause they have "experience" with other superhero films, Marvel and DC are too different, one side doesn't like the light and corny comedic tone and the other dislikes the dark and gritty tone.
The one thing I find confusing about the people who complain about MCU films is that for years and years they've said they hate the whole interconnectivity of it and wish the MCU did more standalone films, yet the biggest complaint about DCU films I hear these days is how they they don't want to watch as they feel nothing in it matters since the universe is being rebooted. The same also complain that the MCU is becoming less cohesive and that they can no longer see where it is heading...wtf? 😬
um i think it all started after the end game, like how multiple movies were popping up and to understand it , we had to watch 11 movies, also for tv shows, i dont think audience thought that way before infinity war. after end game, the proper story ended, shows were starting, but the story and direction had no quality, tried to match with the main story, and failed sometimes. i feel the audience who hated the interconnectivity is a small portion or new fans of mcu. and in dceu, they never maintained the story, batman v SM story was not great either, and they never continued a cemented story, especially in justice league, and now in flash. so dceu never mattered to me. MOS was good, WW 1 was good, Bm VS Sm was ok. i loved suicide squal 1 2, but others missed the direction and story and didnt make sense, it was not a good story nor fit the dc universe.
think of it like the star wars movies. Like a decade or so ago there was no much to be lost around, you got the original trilogy, the prequels, and a bunch of stuff like novels and comics that doesn't really matter unless you were a hardcore fun. So every now and then you met somebody who has never seen star wars and said " i wan't to watch it, but i don't know where to start", they knew they were all part of a saga and if they pick them in the wrong order there will be stuff you'll be lost about. Some people thought that was confusing they would not bother into watching star wars for that reason, and they were only 6 movies... Now I think the problem with DC is, people either go to watch these movies because they know they are part of the saga, but you don't really know if the new movie will be important, or people want to watch a stand alone film, but they are not sure because this movie seems to be conected to all these other movie which you did not watch (or don't like). The flash seems like something that would satisfied neither, as part of the DCU it seems skipable, it seems like it will no matter for the next one, but for the audience who want to watch a stand alone film this isn't it because is so connected to the other movies.
@@naegling But the connectivity is not what fans have been complaining about these days. That's what they complained about with the earlier films. It's the lack of connectivity and the future reboot of the franchise which is turning them off now.
C'mon, the writing's been on the wall for The Flash for months... years even. The whole production has been a cluster from the start, and Ezra's antics made sure that regular people wouldn't go see it. If James Gunn's universe is going to work, he's going to need to make better decisions, watch his money, and control his actors better. At this point, all I can say is... we'll see!
Nah, Blue Beetle is so random it'll easily double Flashpoint just thru virtue of being something new. Imo it'll be an easy 80m base whereas I predicted Flash would be at 45 lol Latino audiences will eat it up no crumbs if the marketing plays it right, and by right I mean better than they ever have lol
@@nailinthefashion only real problem is there was actual nerd backlash to the "Batman's a fascist" joke in the trailer, I can imagine some people refusing to see it because people love to be upset by things in 2023. ;)
I was told Aquaman's success had to do with the huge boxoffice from China, and that China seems to have its own preferences for films. As a Chinese American, my guess is that China likes colorful sci-fi in the ocean. One of the biggest boxoffice movies in China was a movie called Mermaid.
I don’t think Gunn is cherry picking what he thinks works he has already made it pretty clear that he likes to highlight the more lesser known characters. That’s why he is keeping the blue beetle in particular because he is a lesser known character. I mean look at his past work The Guardians of the Galaxy, The Suicide Squad, and the show Peacemaker. Mostly lesser known characters, granted the suicide squad itself isn’t but the characters that he used in the movie were I mean Rat Catcher 2 and Polka Dot Man come on lol
Unfortunately the days when you could launch an unknown comic book character on the big screen and have a box office hit are over. The Blue Beetle proves that audiences just don't have the same desire to see comic book movies they once had. If that film came out in 2017, it would have been a hit.
The biggest break the MCU could have ever had, one that will never be repeated, is they were able to get Robert Downey Jr. for relatively cheap to be Iron Man. But note that Robert Downey Jr. had already cleaned up his life, and has been scandal-free since. You only hear about him now when it concerns his current work. That is what the DCU didn't get about doubling and tripling down on Ezra Miller.
I think we overlook how in the early days of the MCU they always gave themselves an out if something flopped. The after credits of Iron Man teases a connected universe so if it flopped there wasn't a commitment. Even Guardians of the Galaxy was separated off in a way that it could be dropped if it didn't connect.
@@endoflifex944 exactly, johnny depp was doing coke and drinking himself to an early grave and enjoying the bajeezus out of it and pumping out pirate movies by the dozen. Then, along comes a spider, B-list Amber turd wants to ruin people's careers with insane allegations so that they become radioactive in Hollywood on her way out of a toxic marriage and into a favorable divorce settlement and steal/transform Johnny's A-list clout into her shining example of a battered wife, me too movement survivor A-list stolen valor reputation. Spot the difference? RDJ and Johnny can mount a comeback. Turd and Ezra can't.
Maybe try stories written for a general audience (with Easter eggs for fans) with good character development, staying true to who the characters are (pre new 52) including what motivates them to be heroes, with a good plot, and compelling villain(s) for each movie.
I think Ezra was the biggest problem. I absolutely loved the movie, but having 2 Ezra’s was a bad move. I think had Ezra met Grant’s version and then them working together with Keaton and Calle, and ultimately bringing it to a point where it was Ezra’s version who made the sacrifice to leave us with Grant somehow would have been a great way to change the entire multiversal situation. I think WB’s marketing has also always been a problem, where they give away so much of the movies in their trailers that people also might feel like they can afford to wait to stream them, rather than go to the theater.
Ezra was a huge stumbling block for the flash movie. The DC folks haven’t figured out how to combine individual movies together so that there’s a giant over arching problem that requires many of the superheroes to save the world. They have so many false starts that it may be better to just clear the table and begin again. Unfortunately, that could mean loosing actors that I loved in their roles; namely, Viola Davis, Gal Gadot, Henry Cavill, and Jason Momoa.
Having 2 ezras was fine. It made the main Barry Allen dealing with his immature self, grow up. Thematically, it was the perfect way to teach himself what batman was trying to demonstrate that their past experiences shape who they become. The Flashpoint comic and animated film does a better job than this live action movie, but for some reason, they didn't want to straight up ripoff the comic or cartoon catchphrases, so the Ezra movie just created the "not every problem has a solution, Barry." Instead of the "...some things you just can't fix and having the wisdom to know the difference." You needed to see 2 Barry Allens because it was basically about the selfish Barry vs the wiser Barry and their POV and personal growth.
@@LexiK1820 if netflix pulls off the impossible and can actually pull the zack snyderverse dceu into it's orbit, I think it would pacify the dc fandom if netflix could help zack finish the snyderverse with JL 2 and 3. If you look at every dceu movie made after ZSJL, you can already tell that WB and DC were already pivoting and filming shazam, suicide squad, black adam and shazam 2 in the DCU MCU style, which fans just did not like at all.
2:44 false, MOS made less than the dark knight, the trilogy made over 2 billion as TDK made 1B and so did TDKR This led to WB forcing Zack to make a cinematic universe pushing batman into a superman sequel instead of a proper Superman Sequel What makes DC money is GOOD MOVIES, the TDK trilogy is GOOD, Aquaman might've been cheesy but its GOOD, the Joker (cost the least out of all the billion dollar films fromC) was GOOD, The Batman is GOOD Just make GOOD movies
I think people are looking at Snyder's movies the wrong way. Yes Batman v Superman didn't make a billion dollars, but it also had heavy studio interference, which essentially forced Snyder to include things he might not have. Say he had done BvS the way he wanted without interference, it likely makes more money and then he's given more trust and faith in his JL movie, it doesn't get changed and the studio waits for Snyder to finish it instead of bringing in someone else. Then it also likely would've made a billion. I think the studio interference is the problem. It was a problem with The Flash. And it's why marvel doesn't have that problem. They literally have their own studio that they created to push their brand and their cinematic universe.
@@WilliamWelsh It is a very reasonable decision but the jerks like you cannot understand. Why invest time and money if there is no payoff. Many people are not billionaires and have to think about spending on each movie if they are cinema-going fans.
As a DC fan since I was a kid, I can say that based off people I know who aren't comic book fans, agreed that DC movies were more enjoyable when darker and griddy instead of comedic and corny. This is why the general audience seemed to have enjoyed the dark knight, Man of steel, and the Batman more
Yeah the thing is, I don't want to see another MCU. A lot of criticism was because the tone was too dark, etc. but people still flocked to see The Batman, They made a mistake by trying to make them corny like MCU, instead of fixing the screenplay and it all went downhill from there. I personally am tired with superhero movies, including MCU. And if Gunn's DCU is just another rip-off of MCU, I don't think I will be interested.
@@fubytv731 Personally, I would say there's a problem if Batman movies and Superman movies have the same tone. I don't think that the DCU has to have a single tone that spans every movie. Winter Soldier and Ant-Man don't share the same tone, for instance.
I think dark and gritty work for Batman because he's a dark character. But not Superman. Some people didn't take a shine to Man of Steel. Supes was always a hopeful character. Truth, Justice and the American Way. Nobody wanted to see a moody Supes who snaps people's necks
@@radrobd123 They had the perfect setup in MOS for Superman to be hopeful and never kill/hurt anyone after having to kill his own people in the first day of job. It could have been a perfect MOS2 to develop how he came the real superman after that incident. Then they screwed it up for not following up with that idea in MOS2 and went for BvS instead. That movie had Superman killed a person in the first 20 minutes of the film to rescue Lois. So it showed that he didn't learn anything from MOS.
Huge props to Ryan bringing in experts to these new episodes (the AI discussion was great too!). I am absolutely loving these conversations. Keep up the content, by far my favourite source for nerd news!
A live action close version of Flashpoint Paradox (with Jeffery Dean Morgan Thomas Wayne Batman and Lauren Cohen Martha/Joker, Reverse Flash, CGI skinny Henry Cavil, evil Aquaman and Wonder Woman) would have been epic and made over a Billion easily. No reason they couldn’t do that and then reboot the franchise from there. Hollywood has lost all its creativity magic and replaced it with identity politics and race/gender swaps shoved down our throats. And if we don’t throw our now expensive movie ticket money at it, then we the audience are the problem. So ridiculous.
@@OperationOutstandingInField This was never a movie about Flashpoint to begin with, it was just tacked on last minute. It was a Flash origin movie that was planned in 2014, that saw multiple directors coming and leaving due to creative differences. And diff ppl working on the script. WB prob settled on half-assed Flashpoint bec they prob saw No Way Home and thought hey we can do this whole "multiverse" thing but with flash and be a hit. It also doesnt help when the lead role is a criminal, a pedo and is prevented from doing any promotional for the movie It has nothing to do with WB doing identity politics or whatever rabbit whole you think went down Lol
My reasoning for why it flopped was the fact that he wasn’t a memorable Flash. Snyder Cut tried to make him to be big hero status, especially after all of the scandals started. Snyder Flash was weirdly timid for a guy who can run faster then a speeding bullet. Compared to comic/Arrowverse Flash who is as smart as he is fast, and is a bit of a smartass. Speaking of Arrrowverse, they already did Flashpoint on screen, as well as DC Animated Universe. Timid and powerful heroes do not convey confidence from the audience. This is evident in all things of life, from being picked for a pickup game, to dating, to voting/politics
I don't trust Gunn, I think he just took this on as a vanity project I think his Superman is going to tank (I honestly hope it does) because there was vision and they just threw it all away because of pride. We didn't want a reboot. We didn't want 3 Batmen. Gunn also seems to contradict himself, and out and out lie to people about what's gone on/what is going on. It's horrible.
Zak made good movies they just didn't give him enough time to really develop the universe and I think James Gunn is going to completely have the universe super goofy
Based on the slate I think the reboot is gonna be more diverse in tone. Zack Snyder made good movies but they were all centered on the Justice League and their villains. The new slate seems like it’s gonna be more setting up a broad universe from jump, which allows for more tone diversity. Like obviously stuff like Booster Gold is gonna be goofy, but ain’t no way you make a goofy Swamp Thing movie. And they literally said Paradise Lost is gonna be like Game of Throne with Amazons.
Between ezras issues, the weird vfx/cgi, the weird story, and the fact it isn't part of the new universe, it kind of makes the film feel like a high budget fan film
Kinda feel 3 things for this one. First one is Ezra Miller. A lot has come out and I'm sure that has put fans off. Second is DC's reputation. They did really well with the Nolan films, and arguably with the Snyder ones, but you had Superman Returns and Green Lantern around the time of the former, and a mess with the latter as they try to make their own universe. The third is probably more telling: When you go into a DC film, you go in for a super hero film. On the other hand the Marvel films you do go in to see a super hero, but you could be going into a space opera, or a political thriller, or a horror film or something else. Yes the heroes are the focus, but they are also genre films and make it seem more natural.
yeah that's why I think DC kinda had a hot streak going these past few years they were focusing on making good genre films instead of a connected universe The Batman was a noir detective thriller, The Sucide Squad was war comedy, Birds of Prey was a story about a woman learning to find herself after getting out of an abusive relationship, ZSJL showed the importance of director freedom and became the only Snyder film I liked, but that went away with Black Adam, Shazam and The Flash movies that feel like were made by studios and just played it safe with little to no heart The Flash was probably the best of these 3 but with so many things bogging it down it failed even though it might not have been the best and there is another far better multiverse movie currently in theaters it was still a fun watch
What it REALLY hurts is Warner's reluctance to spend the HUGE amounts needed for blockbusters anymore in Gunn's universe *may be affected by the continued dceu flops
Given that The Batman was the best film DC put out in years on half the budget of the rest, I'm not worried about Gunn not getting a quarter billion per film. Any decent director can make a good film for a fraction of that. And Gunn is better than decent, at least as far as comic book movies goes.
The problem is that WB set a standard when they fired Depp. They didn’t uphold that standard for all employees in a fair and equal manner. They continued to say they didn’t care what fans want or think. So I don’t think there is no hope for DC/WB, but they need to shut up about protecting crappy people and actually listen their fans.
I would consider myself a Snyder fan. I love Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, and the Snyder cut. In my opinion, Man of Steel is a masterpiece. All thanks to Henry Cavill. He IS Superman. Casting doesn't get more perfect than Henry Cavill's Superman. It completely broke my heart to see these movies spiral out control and not feel connected anymore. But when I saw Henry Cavill return in Black Adam and heard the news of James Gunn being the head of DC, the future looked really bright. The Suicide Squad was great, and the Guardians of the Galaxy movies are fantastic; James Gunn knows how to make movies. With Gunn's experience with The Suicide Squad, I figured the DCEU would get somewhat of a soft reboot. But they chose to reboot the universe entirely. As a huge Henry Cavill Superman fan, this news was heartbreaking and drastic for me. It just freaking sucks. Henry Cavill deserved better, as do his fans. But it is what it is, I guess. There's no point in complaining about something that's never going to change. Instead, I want to be optimistic and supportive of James Gunn and his plan for the future of DC. As I already said, he makes great movies, so I have faith in him. I hope Superman: Legacy is a great film and a great start to the DCU.
You like that superman? Did you get a chance to read up on what Snyder wanted to do with him? Long story short, batman has a baby with Lois so superman joins Darkseid Im not making this up, it's the whole plot point Snyder made his whole JL on!
I think the great casting couldn’t out run zacks pen lol He wrote a terrible Clark and John Kent(who was cool with letting kids die on a buss and sacrificed himself for no reason ) which I think make up a huge part of who Superman is.
@GEEZY_2344 absolutely agree, but it would have gotten so much worse! The plan from the beginning was to have batman have a baby with Lois then superman would join Darkseid out of beta b---h energy. I promise I'm not making this up, WB green lit this!
I think this failure of The Flash will ultimately make this a hard reboot rather than a soft one. I'm sorry it's disappointing, and I'm right there with you about casting. Snyder is really exceptional at that. But I think it's better to look forward than look back. I think Gunn is so good with character work, I'm more than happy for him to get the chance to make his own Superman film. It's hard to get excited about something we can't imagine, so it's tempting to look back at what we liked and wish for more. But what we really enjoy most is something new, something unlike anything we've ever seen. So long as it's good.
In order to create a multiversal story line that works, you need people invested in each character involved to make it understandable and palatable to wide audiences. I just think that with Ezra being who they are and only having been in some of the DC movies makes it hard to get invested in such a deep story line with that version of Flash.
Bingo. Audiences care about seeing Rami and Webb Spider-Man characters who provided to the plot of NWH's multiverse whereas the multiverse stuff we got in Flash was barely 5-minute cameos besides Keaton Batman,
One thing no one considers is the timeline of film release. In the MCU there was more than a film a year. You cannot demand people being committed for a saga with years between a film and another one, like in the DC film universe. "Flash" the film came 6 years after the official Justice League film, i.e. 6 years after the character came to in the DC universe: you cannot expect people wait that long. Do you want to build a DC film universe? Make it quick!
I kind of like the idea of multiple Jokers, including one played by Willem Defoe who is plausibly the same person as Joaquin Phoenix, but never confirmed as such.
Gunn is still set up for his typical goofy, relatable yet strongly masculine projects but imo the crucial part will be if he will make Superman and Batman feel refreshing. It's not a matter of if he can, but if the execution will be equal to or greater than Star Lord etc
Exactly. They need to make new films that make everyone forget there was ever any other Batman or Superman film. They need to leave the DCEU behind. Clearly, the audience already has.
@@rottensquid I think it will be too hard to make people forget entirely, so they'd need to respect that there may be better (the dark knight) or more fun (batman and robin) Bats or Supes: but just say "this is who we are now" and be more additive than destructive moving forward. I have no idea what they were doing with each new project and neither did they hahaha What sets Feige apart is that he truly believes in "yes and" which is why Marvel is so saturated yet successful still. So instead of torching the early Avengers lore, we've only built off of it Flashpoint should be their Avengers 1 imo and they just assume we know all the big hitters already, no more traditional origin stories
I love how you blame Snyder fans. I’m not even a die hard Snyder fan beyond maybe 1-2 of his movies an I can see that is all BS. James Gunn must be paying you very well to try to defend a universe that he even admitted started with the flash. Ya blame the actions of few toxic Snyder fans but let’s not at all blame the idiot who fights on twitter with fans about what they want in a movie. Perfect sense.
I don’t get how they blame Snyder but spend majority of the time saying it’s really the studios fault for rushing to be like Marvel. Surely Snyder’s “failure” was down to the poor direction above him and they should stop blaming him. Worst yet they don’t realize it was their whining about the Snyder movies that caused WB to lose direction of where they were going.
My theory for the end of The Flash movie is that knowing how much people hated the Clooney batman movies it would be the perfect universe to drop the current flash in and just leave behind. I don't think we'll see them ever reprise their roles as batman or flash so it makes sense to leave him behind where no one else wants to go back to.
Clooney has repeatedly commented that he hated his performance and the movie. Val Kilmer is too sick for a cameo. Why they didn't get Christian Bale for a the cameo is beyond me.
This is anecdotal but everyone I know don't really like going to the cinema anymore. Not even the die hard movie goers. I think movies being made available at streaming services during covid really showed how much of a hassle going out to the cinema is and a lot us of prefer waiting for movies to be available online.
Exactly! I was one of those people who loved going to the theater. I'd go all the time have myself a double feature but that was pre covid. Once I had the option to watch in the comfort of my own home, that's where I want to stay. I bought a few movies on Disney plus the same day they hit theaters, back when we had that option. Now I'll wait til they hit the streaming apps.
Superman: Legacy is the official start. The Blue Beetle character will be a part of the DCU…while not being an official DCU movie. Kinda confusing but Blue Beetle was made before James Gunn became head of DC. Not sure why they don’t consider it “Elseworld”…they must really like the way Xolo plays the character
For me, I really wanted to see MK back as Batman, next Kevin Conroy, I think he's been the best. I went to see Batman like 3 or 4 times as a kid. My dislike of Ezra's whole deal, the disappointment of past DC movies (BvS, JL, Black Adam, Suicide Squad 1, etc) and the "edgyness" that Zack Snyder injected into everything is what kept me home. I'm really hoping JG can right the ship and if the trailers look good, I'm back in.
Funny thing about all this - The Batman was a fantastic movie with an interesting story and character development. Most comic book films don't do this at all anymore. Wakanada forever? The best character development in that film was T-challa. Dr. Strange? Scarlet Witch breaking bad was not earned. Superman v. Batman and the rest of the Schneider verse has no character development.
DCEU has already tried to be super serious and most of their movies flop and for good reason. They are all overproduced bad CGI messes and none of the characters are likable or uniqie. Hate on Marvel if you must but the world prefers it over a batman who uses guns or the worst superman suit I have ever seen... all terrible. Give me a funny happy Thor or a quippy Iron-man anyday.
The issue is that you have a fan base that by itself can't guarantee a blockbuster. However that same fan base can guarantee a blockbuster flop. All that group is after is a resolution to a their story by the group that created it. A lot of influencers have consistently told the fans to speak with their wallets and the effects of it are showing. From the outside looking in it appears that they disrespected a beloved Superman with the cameo fiasco. They gave into the base with the Justice league Snyder cut only to make him release it as a 4+ hour long film. That's a difficult thing to sit through for any movie. Also IMHO if they had released it as a small miniseries week by week it could have had a positive impact on the HBO Max subscription numbers. The flash movie had a plethora of things going against it. I just want to note that the Superman cameo and Justin league story continuity were a huge part of the boxoffice numbers. Not to mention that all of this negative discussion 0re release didn't help. One last point, I do think this really sucks eggs for WB Discovery, is that the Snyder fans want a completion to their story on some medium. A lot of people invested a lot of money and time into this universe. Rebooting at this point is a lot harder for to accept than just finishing the two other justice league movie then do some sort of crisis event to reboot the universe. James Gunn could have sat down with Zach Snyder, made two or three good movies and brought the universe to a close. Then the Snyder fans would feel satisfied instead of neglected.
In a world where guardians of the galaxy and across the spiderverse came out and hit big you really brought up superhero fatigue...it was Ezra Miller..
I agree. Superhero fatigue is laughable when Disney has yet to release Deadpool, The X-Men, Blade (not just his voice) and The Fantastic Four into the MCU.
The first negative thing I heard about this film was from an 18 year old the week before it came out. He complained about Ezra Miller. This was a kid who watched the CW show, was familiar with the character, and goes to comic movies regularly. He was NOT going to see this because of Ezra Miller and predicted it would flop. I thought he was crazy. Since the movie flopped I keep hearing the same thing - "I hated this because of Ezra Miller"- In comic shops " I hated this but if Ezra Miller wasn't in it and everything else remained exactly the same I would have liked it" led the hate on UA-cam/ podcast reviews. These people didn't say this subtly, they were adamant about it. It appears, from what I've witnessed, that people didn't care about Keaton, they let their dislike of Miller keep them away - at least until it goes to streaming. Shazam was announced that it was going to streaming a couple of weeks after it came out. If people saw that and thought they were willing to wait it out, that might explain part of this. It will be interesting to see how many views the film gets when it goes to streaming on MAX.
I hadn't watched the phase 1 movies until after Avengers 1...I liked that there was a history that I could go back to and even see things payoff in later movies... It's why I watch channels like screen crush. In my opinion marvel has tried to tell stories they think people will like, while other studios have tried to recreate the success. Tell good stories please
This isn't about superhero fatigue, to me at least. I think Ezra was the biggest problem, and the quality of the special effects wasn't that good. And about the Justice League wasn't that good, the humor was too much, and Steppenwolf wasn't that big of a threat once Superman was in it. I thought Zack Snyder's Justice League was way better, but I didn't see it until it was release on Blu-Ray.
Great video w/ plenty to think about. Regarding superhero fatigue, I would reference what Gunn has said about being tired of “spectacles” w/out an emotionally grounded story. Similar to what Colton and Joanna said, DC needs to focus on good movies first then universe second. Also, like Ryan, I am a bit worried for the DCU. Some of the general audience is growing tired of cinematic universes & the homework that comes w/ it. Still, multiple versions of a character like Batman could work if the DCU’s Bat is distinct from Matt Reeves’ version. All in all, I’m still excited for the DCU movies and television projects bc I trust James Gunn. I believe in his ability to shepherd stories that make you care about the characters and universe overall. Much love to Ryan and the ScreenCrush team for these awesome videos.
For many people who liked MAN OF STEEL, it DID have an emotionally grounded story. Gunn seems like he's going to keep the stuff he likes/worked on that people also happened to like, and discard stuff he didn't work on that people also liked (Affleck's Batman, Cavill's Superman, Gal Gadot's WW). As I stated above, I'm just mad about the new DCU, I'm just not particularly interested.
My biggest concern with Gunns new universe is that it’s gonna have too much silliness and I’m one of those people that really loved Snyders gritty take on it but if he can keep it grounded at the same time then I think that’s the key and I think that’s what Marvel did very well. They took these cosmic issues and made them seem like they could be real….
@@edsmith4821 I think if the studio would have given him time to grieve his daughter, which is the worst thing that could ever happen to a parent, and then let him get back to work; it might have been that good the first time but they let Whedon come in and do his thing because they were only concerned with getting their money back as quickly as possible and don’t get me wrong, I may be a fan of his work but I’m not one of his fanatics so I don’t think he’s perfect by any means and I do agree that he would have to make it work in 3 hrs like everyone else so maybe it worked out for the best.
I believe the Ezra Miller drama is the overwhelming reason why The Flash flopped. At this point there is no way they can reprise this role. This causes an real issue as there is just no point to see this movie. This arch is resolved, but unlike an Endgame there is no closer as this film was supposed be the beginning of the new U, but Ezra killed that and you cannot recast him because it would be too awkward with the multiverse where actor changes are noticed on screen. So any excitement the viewer is intended to leave the film with is cancelled now. So there just no point to waste time and money on a dead end like this. Instead of reshooting the ending with Clooney being the WTF moment, they should have had a new Barry be the cliffhanger. No one would see it coming and now you have limitless directions to go in. But, I have to tell you overall this was one of the better DCU movies, but it was truly wasted and destroyed by the actions of Ezra Miller. The best bet for Gunn and the DCU would be to just walk away from the film by publicly removing it from canon and just start the Gunn U over from a fresh POV. I hope this all makes sense. By the way The Suicide Squad is my favorite DCU movie too. We need more Elba, Robbie, and co. for sure!
For me it was because so much behind the scenes movement, different people with input on the story, and if Cavill and Affleck are no longer there then the DCU i invested in too see good stories is already done.
With the way things have been going for Marvel I don't think the standard for them is that high anymore so if they manage to just get few decent movies then most fans will be on board
Marvel movies are still doing well in theaters though and even with their share of issues, their films have collectively been substantially better. Besides, we need to quit comparing them directly to Marvel. They can both succeed at the box office if DC gets it together.
I mean DCEU lays the bar extremely low. The MCU WAS good and is now only ok, but there is no time I can think of that the MCU has ever dipped as low as even DCEUs best movie...
@@atlien1988but Marvel shows how it is possible. DCEU just seems to always pull out garbage... Until DCEU does WAY better then it will always be compared to MCU
@@ChefBoydrdee WB/DC started making D.C. comicbook movies in 1978 - a full 30 years before Ironman 1. Marvel didnt get a head start.. D.C. did AND were in bankruptcy when they made Ironman 1. - now they are worth 6x more than the entire Discovery_Warner corporation. By the time the MCU was as old as the DCEU is - they were already the highest grossing franchise in movie history.
More people seemed to have boycotted due to Ezra Miller than I thought. But I'm surprised more people didn't see it for Michael Keaton and despite the cgi issues it's actually a good movie. Im disappointed alot of people didn't see it just cos it won't have a sequel in the same universe. There are lots of good standalone movies, superhero movies are not obligated to connect to a wider franchise.
James Gunn is the elephant in the movie. He talks too much and he is all over the place. You never see Feige or Snyder yapping online all the tine. I mean Gunn was even talking about his casting for superman the weekend Flash was coming out. Who does that? His actions undercut these movies and announcing a reset when movies connected to the old universe are still coming out was just bad PR. Who will get invested in these movies when they know Gunn is restarting everything in a few months?
I have little faith in WB because they have little faith in their own product. I do however, following GOTG, The Suicide Squad and Peacemaker, feel happy to give some faith to Gunn.
James Gunn and WB need to realise that they must include Paul Dini and Bruce Timm for the DCU coz they understand DC characters much better than anyone else out there. There is still time, else it is doomed to fail.
I personally think it’s going to take us as the audience to go in with no expectations or comparisons. So many DC properties are going to be compared to Marvel, but these are two TOTALLY different studios. I think Gunn has a love for not only comic book hero’s and their stories, but more importantly a love for FILMMAKING. I’ve been hoping the best for DC films moving forward, but time will tell all tales.
@@simon_lukas true but we were eagerly expecting the Matt Reeves Batman due to Afleck stepping down from the role at that time, and I think Joker was a new idea that gained a lot of momentum and excitement. Perhaps and hopefully less involved enthusiasts will gain excitement with the new universe when the artistic vision is fully realized.
I feel like aside from Ezra being a big factor in the flash flop DC movies have always been shaky. There are some stand out good ones but the majority of them have been very polarizing leaning towards being bad movies and stories regardless of how much money they made. I feel like the suits in trying to be like Marvel sacrificed a lot of what makes superhero movies great and rushed all these team ups instead of focusing on the individual characters and their stories
The quality was terrible. I know the flashpoint story and this was not it. Snyder had the vision but DC failed. Also the more we talk about, it will continue to fail.
The way James Gunn killed the DCEU left a bad taste. And who would watch something that is already dead. James Gunn should have let the upcoming DCEU movies have its glory before dropping the REBOOT bomb.
I think if BvS extended version and the Snyder Cut were the theatrical versions, audiences would have liked them so much better. The movies actually made sense with the plot and motives. Because the theatrical versions left such a bad taste in everyones mouth, they didn't want to bother with the updated versions. With the new Flash movie, it's not so much that it didn't matter about connecting the film to a larger franchise that is in limbo and ending soon, but more so about it didn't matter in its own movie. He went back in time, then reset everything so it felt like the movie was pointless.
He made a film with a talking tree and a talking Raccoon as some of the main characters that was full of unknown characters . The first Guardians trailer was amazing and it became a hit. He’ll be fine.
It is simple. The Flash was not a good movie. Constantly blaming Snyder fans for the current state of DC does nothing to heal the fan base. I loved Man of Steel, I did not like BvS. Justice League was butchered by Joss Whedon and the Flash felt like Whedon’s Justice League to me. Zack Snyder’s Justice was so much better. As a MCU fan I am much more worried about it’s current state. I am excited to see what James Gunn does with the DCU. If it is good people will show up.
I think the Flash was really good imo. I think the reason it didn't do well at the box office is because they tried to connect everything together. I saw the movie twice and the kids whom sat next to me kept asking their dad who is this and who is that, as if they have never seen Man of Steel or zs Justice League. The film is real fast paced and if they dont know who Zodd is they clearly wont get the movie. I made my gf watched all the major DC films (starting with 1978 Superman aka the best DC film) prior the Flash and she understood and enjoyed the whole experience. The Flash is on my top 5 for sure.
The reason the earlier Movies made a lot of money is because we were all excited and wanted to be there to see the franchise take off. After Batman V Superman, I stopped seeing DCEU movies opening weekend and waited to hear how people liked the movies before i went. Which makes me sad, because I want to be excited to see a Superman movie.
When think about the Marcel movies and the good DC movies, there usually is development for the Characters. In the Flash and the not so good DC movies, there is more focus on the world changing and big things that disconnect the viewers. Part of this is definitely based on the team up being rushed. Even if we are familiar with the character in general the audience needs to understand which iteration of the character this is and then let them move forward.
Damn shame "Fans" are making Gunn's universe fail because they are having a tantrum that the studio got tired of Snyderverse flops. He's one of the few directors who can mesh serious themes and comedy without going too far in either direction.
Gunn didn't even have a chance to take over when this bomb was in development. It's not necessarily part of his grand plan. I also think we can ignore the fact that Ezra Miller is toxic to any movie or franchise he's apart of. Maybe with this multiverse, they can recast him too.
It would be so smart to just ignore Ezra and have multiple Flashes moving forward. Could literally mill him off screen like "oh yeah there was another speedster... he blew up" But I think they're gonna give him a send off and that's so gross
I truly believe that insulting Snyderverse fans and trying to separate them from the rest of the fanbase isn't wise. Very much most of Snyderverse fans are decent (many are toxic of course, however, trolls are everywhere) and we wanted something that Warner would respect. And the studios were really disrespectful to Snyder his family and us as fans. May I remind you that many directors, such as, Christopher Nolan have been soured by their relationship with Warner Brothers and the fact that they have had such inner fighting and company selling is a great example as to how their self centered decisions have led to their downfall. And this is something that both Snyder fans and the mainstream would agree with. Maybe not refer to an entire fanbase as bullies but hide it as a quirp. By the way, Warner Brothers themselves referred to the Snydercut as a global phenomenon. I will say that Burnout is definitely a factor. Both Marvel and DC are going the way of the Westerns (quoting Spielberg). Snyder wasn't perfect, nevertheless, his movies were consistent, his aesthetic was unique and he was clear that his characters were more grounded on reality as in; how would the world truly react to a world like this! This in effect made it truly different from Marvel. And his Superman was a work in progress movie by movie, which he was clear about as well.
I think studios vastly overestimate people's willingness to keep spending money on mediocre movies. Or going to the cinema in general. People are broke.
The problem is most movies today is there is no story anymore. People just think they want want cheap jokes and cool fight scenes. But it’s good story’s that we crave
One big issue with the DCU films going forward is Gunn himself. There are Synderverse fans who might not like anything moving forward, but there's also a mindset with fan of us versus them with Marvel and DC films. There are some overlaps between franchises with fandom, but a good number of fans still want the distinction between the two. James Gunn started as a Marvel guy, and putting him in charge feels like Joss Whedon all over again.
I agree @Walsfeo, it's definitely not fatigue. There's many reasons why all of the DC movies either under performed or just missed the mark entirely. I've said this from the beginning, one of their biggest problems is that they do not cast the right people for any of their leading roles. Ya, they have some great actors on the team but they're not right for their roles. I don't think any of the actors currently portraying DC heroes are the right ones. If Gunn wants any hope of making this a success he needs to cast the right actors. They also need to stop trying to copy the MCU! Stop announcing 9 movies with release dates over the next 4 years. Marvel does that now, but they earned it. They only started doing that after they successfully released 5-8 movies. DC wants to just jump in from the first stage to the 4thb phase... THEY TRIED THAT AND IT FAILED! SO STOP LOL. FORGET JUGGLING 9 FILMS, CONCENTRATE ON THE ESSENTIALS. If they just stuck to the source material & cast the right people and bring out solo movies for a couple members of the Justice League, they wouldve al ready had a successful universe of films. James Gunn did a great job with the Guardian films but I don't have much hope for his new DC Universe.... sad 😢😢😢
In my opinion they had the tools in place to make good superman films. Henry Cavill was loved by the fans but the scripts let him down massively. Ezra Miller is not likable and the fact they gave us two Barry's was a disaster and I found him bloody annoying so I'm not surprised it flopped. Maybe if Henry Cavill's superman was in it people might have been more hyped and it could have been a heroic ending for his superman and close out that whole universe and now ready to start again with James Gunn's vision. They missed a big opportunity to make a good movie. Unfortunately nobody cares.
Finally at the end of the video Joanna makes the very point I’ve been saying on my head the whole time. Just make good movies. They can be dramatic, funny, or whatever, but make a good movie based on a good story first. I do appreciate some of the fan service done in movies as a long time fan myself. But even Marvel is trying too hard to force too many cameos of old characters, introduce new characters, etc. into their movies. Not to mention that the Spider-verse movies have done some of the best explaining of the multiverse that even my 8yo son was waaay excited during the last one and wouldn’t stop asking questions or eventually explaining how things worked as he got it through the movie. The Batman and Joker were awesome movies. Good stories and good actors portraying them. It would be interesting to see those two eventually become enemies to see how that plays out, but that will never happen in the DCEU. In the end I’m glad I waited a couple weeks to go see the Flash because it didn’t live up to the hype. Time will tell how the Gunn DCEU plays out.
For it to have "FLOPPED" there sure are a lot of people who enjoyed the movie. I wonder if all these UA-cam channels talking down on it has anything to do with it commercially?
Just cause a small minority of people of enjoyed doesn't take away the fact that this movie is a financial failure. This movie has been out for 2 weeks now and it's only made $200 million dollars total. It cost $250 million dollars to make this movie. Thats a flop.
Haha, if a "lot" of people liked it, it would have been far more financially successful. What you're describing is the vocal minority. I personally enjoyed most of the movie, but even I can be reasonable and say that the movie was a huge mess with dreadful CGI.
My personal opinion is nobody really likes that Gunn is taking over. I actually liked Superman, and Batman vs Superman. It was a different take on the characters as well as Batman. Personally i loved Affleck as Batman. Hes a more beefier and scary Batman which what Batman is supposed too be. A lot of the other Batmans were too bright, probably another reason why people loved Keaton as Batman. And im pretty sure Keaton could uave saved his Joker when he slipped through his hands on that ledge. And another reason i know a lot of people who loved Snyders Justice League, and it was left unfinished with the whole Darkseid thing. I loved the 4 hour movie because it gave the characters more time to develop and show you why they neede too team up. So not being able too see Justice League 2 and 3 and possibly more cameos bums me out. So why would i go to the theater to go see the Flash for the DCEU which is no longer going too be around? Im not a huge fan of James Gunn but im not at all excited for another reboot or soft reboot for some of these characters. Ive seen that plenty. There's no continuation like Marvel is. I thought they found a perfect Superman character, a perfect Wonder Woman character, Jason Mamoa and every Batfleck, and i even liked cyborg. But here we go again and lets start over. Im done with that.
The problem, I think, is a lack of commitment to a vision. The DCEU lacked it and Gunn's remarks are also wishy-washy. The fact that we are struggling to interpret what is going on is indicative of this very problem.
They’ve always been reactive rather than proactive to the DCEU
I think it's important to remember that this isn't the first film of the new DCU, it's the last film of the old DCEU. And given the colossal mess that the DCEU became, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest it up would backfire. They don't need to explain why they're starting over. The Batman did fine without having to explain why it didn't star Ben Affleck. I think most movie-goers want movies, not franchises. And when the ad campaign is selling the film on how it's a continuation of a series audiences haven't been keeping up with or didn't particularly like, it's only gonna serve to keep people away.
Regardless, Gunn would have been a poor studio head if he publicly panned his studio's big tentpole. He had to sing the damn thing's praises, whatever it looked like. That's just good business etiquette. But now it's out and it's a dud, I think the best thing everyone at the studio can do is just stop talking about it, Ezra Miller, poor Zack Snyder, and his failed attempt at a shared universe. Gunn's job is to start from scratch. This film's flop proved that more than ever. I think we won't know what the new DCU is until Gunn's Superman Legacy film actually comes out. Until then, it's foolish to speculate.
@@rottensquid I think James Gun still has not 100% confirmed it is a total reboot he is making, he keeps saying ambiguous phrasings like it will be a semi-reboot (i.e. some characters may continue and therefore their films), blue beetle may or may not be a DCU film already or not, etc and etc.
ill put it like this, i gave up on a cohesive DC cinematic universe YEARS AGO...... THEY ARE SMOKING DRUGS AND DONT KNOWWHAT 2 do
Agreed. Releasing movies in a universe that’s been going to be rebooting makes the films seem meaningless to the GA
Not necessarily. I think The Flash flop just proves audiences are not stupid. People dont like Ezra Miller and they are not gonna pay money to see him for 2 plus hours, even if you got Michael Keaton Batman in there. But I do think Superman: Legacy has to succeed. If Superman flops then i think its pretty much game over cause you cant build a cinematic universe on a flop. Iron-Man kicked off the MCU and Tony Stark was the foundation for the MCU for a decade. If Superman/Clark Kent fails then the DCEU fails
I am with you on this. I saw the movie and thought it was a really good. If Ezra had not been a crazy person this film would have had a larger box office draw.
I would've pulled up for CW flash
Yep and they know what Gunn did to Henry Cavill Superman
@@CensorTube84gunn didn’t do anything lol. the movie was done before gunns regime
@@itsfedorahere9985Gunn was responsible for the last minute reshoots and multiple versions of this movie existing. He himself admitted to submitting "notes" after his initial viewing.
To me, Ezra was never held accountable. If I had done any of that. I would be in jail. I'm also a father if 6. I won't see Flash in theaters because of that. Laws are laws, rich movie stars need to be held accountable also.
Exactly, it is ridoculous what he has so far gotten away with.
It baffles my mind how the rich and famous get no consequences.
Low movie profits is not even a punishment... oh they make slightly LESS ridiculous amounts of money?
If any normal person had the evidence and charges against them that Ezra has we would be in jail and with barely any chance to live a normal life ever again. Why should Ezra get to walk free?
I agree with you 100%
Agreed! Fair and equal treatment for all! Regardless if a movie company is backing your criminal behind or not!
He's already been paid so it makes no difference if you watch it or not!
Never held accountable, given excuses, given pity, then brought back for reshoots, and then given praise by hollywood writers and YT people like Screencrush.... And everyone else stayed away from the spiked kool-aid
My problem is the lack of commitment to a storyline. I think they should choose something and then actually finish it
Another issue I think is that many DCEU movies are connected to the events of Man of Steel such as Zod invading earth and most people don't really remember or connect with that original event in a powerful way that resonated and so the fact that it is used as the connective tissue (eg: reason Batman is mad at Superman in BvS, and the major external conflict in The Flash) across DCEU seems weak
@chethanforyou my guy, Man of Steel showed how badly Zod's invasion truly was for the city, the people of Earth, and Earth itself. Thousands of people died and unlike most comicbook movies that clearly have a high death toll from the climatic battle, BvS shows the consequences of the last movie. The main one being that the invasion is being treated like 9/11 while in every other movie when the US is under attack, the government ironically does nothing, not even acknowledge what happened.
Ezra Miller is why I didn't spend my money on it. Super bummed I missed Keaton on the big screen. But I wasn't risking helping a successful box office sending a message that Ezra Miller and their violent issues and accusations involving kids "didn't matter".
Love seeing Joanna Robinson on your videos. She's great!
yes, ezra miller ruined its promotions of the movie, cgi with the babies scenes and complex multi universe was very ordinary, and what with george clooney?
Ryan it’s because of Ezra Miller, everyone I know wants to watch it but on principle are not supporting it at the box office. When Warner Bros decided to back them after the things they did, it was game over.
If they support it via streaming, they're still supporting the movie. Besides, everyone involved was already paid. They won't see any returns from box office though.
those same people probably use phones made by underpaid children
Yup!!!!
Yeah WB failed at making movies in the first place, the DCEU sucks, but they also proved they are garbage morally.
On top of the story premise being such a weak hook lol if you don't like Ezra, seeing multiple of them is literally a nightmare. The timing couldn't be worse
For me, it wasn't superhero fatigue, I just couldn't muster enough energy to get past Erza Miller's off-screen exploits.
Why give a shit about an actors off screen exploits? It's not like he's the first actor to drink on top of his psych meds and show his ass in public. What does that have to do with the movie though? The way I see it, for the runtime of a film or TV show, those actors don't exist. When did people start caring about everything except the actual art that we're here for to begin with?
What? Does he follow a hate group on Instagram?
Lol this excuse. Make sure you don’t see ANY HOLLYWOOD movies. They are like 90% like that especially the executives .
@@ojmcclanahan689exactly. And Hollywood is like the worst ppl on the planet who finance and excustive ALL movies
Ezra Miller is just one person out of more than 2000 cast and crew members who worked on this movie. According to IMDB there were 2984 cast and crew members on the original Avatar film. The first Avengers movie in 2012 had a crew of 2718 while Iron Man 3 credits a whopping 3310 crew members during its end credit scroll. Finally, it took *1400* VFX artists 16 weeks just to create the epic final battle sequence in Avengers Endgame. 🤯
So next time you buy that $15 movie ticket, forget about the dozen or so actors in the movie and maybe focus instead on the thousands of people who tirelessly worked their asses off behind the scenes for longer hours and far less pay to bring your favorite comic book superheroes and their CGI action packed adventures to life.
I think it honestly flopped because of the things surrounding Ezra.
Um unless I'm mistaken Man if Steel did not make more than The Dark Knight worldwide. The Dark Knight grossed over a billion dollars & was the first Superhero Comic book film to do so.
At least for moral people. People who know aboit Miller and still went to theatres to see it have no morals
They almost completely stopped promotion for it this year in the UK, was heavily promoted last year.
Elemental did horrible the weekend of the 16th. So there is something else
@@Dan55888 moral people are a minority in the world
Disney has a strong corporate structure and a clear vision for the MCU, but most importantly they enforced that vision on every movie released. They were patient and disciplined on their ultimate goal and it worked. The DCU has none of that. Every movie is it’s own entity and nothing connects one movie to the other while also rushing the Justice League when they didn’t earn that moment. DCU doesn’t care about working towards anything, they just want make a quick buck.
Zack Snyder had a map out plan but wb bro destroyed it
Calm Down Disney suc.ks
@@starsoftheworld5150 He actually wanted to have MOS2 before BvS if I remember correctly.
exactly my thoughts, this is the main reason
@@San-pv if Warner Discovery made Zach Snyder president instead of James Gunn , they would be making money
Big factor is the studio that forced things too quick and decided to pull out and change things.
This isn't a sign of superhero fatigue. There were just so many elements working against it. Including that it wasn't terribly cohesive.
In my personal opinion there is no such thing as superhero fatigue. The set dressing (superheroes are not a genre) is so saturated at this point, that the standards of the audience is higher so lazy writing or poor marketing turn off a significant portion of them. I bet if westerns had the audience interaction that we have now They'd have had a better idea what the audience did and did not like and they'd still be made currently, but since all they had at the time is box office and critics opinions they decided that people were tired of westerns and phased them out.
exactly Across the spiderverse are doing well, guardians vol. 3 too.
Exactly. Guardians and Spider-Man did well.
Superhero fatigue will only be a thing once universally acclaimed cbm don’t do well in the box office which I don’t see happening anytime soon. This films far too divisive to use as a barometer for superhero fatigue
@@Ironlantern723I agree. I enjoy superhero films a lot and always will. I just hate and grow tired of these movies that are cash grabs and have no real soul behind them
It's really reductive to blame this movie flopping on a single issue. Ezra's issues, quality issues with the movie itself including the awful CGI, cringeworthy moments, bad taste and meaningless cameos, and a dead universe ALL played a role. There were too many things playing against this movie. I don't think the new DCU is doomed to fail but the storytelling and casting really need to be excellent for it to have a chance at succeeding.
Financially there is a second problem. Elemental flopped on the first weekend. Both films released on the same day. Neither did well, but two issues prevented flash from getting steam.
1 ezra
2 talk.
People have been talking about flash to much. No one talked about elemental
I would add timing and overdone themes and concepts like time travel and the multiverse. Especially when there are films that showcased those ideas and themes recently. And did it well.
@@Ked7 Too much talk, and not about the film, about the various messes surrounding the film. In the end, the DCEU was done in because its controversies became a bigger story than the films themselves.
@@bonkgiartist all those streaming TV/flix garbage make everything seems overdone but with lame execution....
I think this is the crux of the problem "the storytelling and casting really need to be excellent". And saddly i dont think they can create an excellent story. What they NEED to do is stop creating new stories based on the comics and just create the stories in the comics. Take Flashpoint, the comics were so well writen that nothing hollywood comes up with would really compare. So why not just adapt the well writen comic book into a well adapted movie? Just the treatment for batman in the flashpoint story arc...im sorry but what they did to batman in the movie is an insult in comparison.
It's not doomed, it's just that people are expecting higher quality in storytelling, action and character development than the DCEU. Superman Legacy just do happens to have higher expectations than before
The only thing that got all that right was the CW Arrowverse
@@joshuahenderson3444Superman and Lois, yes the rest of the arrowverse HELL NAW!!!
@@brownjordan0523the Flash show was way better than the movies and they should have just taken those actors to the big screen but were either scared or caught in legal binds with copyrights or something bc it is a no brainer to take an established audience and move them to another medium
Gunn only impacted the way it ended not the movie itself. If the movie was a let down then the one to blame are the directors to that movie who didn't want to fire Erza. He's also the one that didn't want to do the movie again and that Director wasn't Gunn. He was the one that gave Gunn no choice in the matter.
NO. IT'S DOOMED!
Connected movie universes have created a problem where studios and fans are now too focussed on what's coming next instead of the thing that's being presented to them now. People don't want to see The Flash because 'what's the point if the universe is being rebooted?' Instead of seeing it because maybe it'll be a really good movie.
Yes, I feel like they are giving out too much information about where they're going. They should keep the public in the dark. People love mystery
Good point. I personally like the Snyder DC movies (including the rarely mentioned Watchman) because I’m an adult male that likes my movies geared toward adult sensibilities. If I wanted to see a light hearted, joke filled, family friendly version of the superhero movie, I’d watch the animated versions that are made for the broader audience. For example, I probably won’t go see the Blue Beetle in theaters because it looks silly and doesn’t appeal to me.
The real problem that no one talks about is how anyone especially a casual fan can see a clip on TikTok of a major moment and not need to see the movie because of spoilers
Yes, in my opinion social media destroys the movie hype. Such as the Spiderman NWH leaks, or the Flash. I liked the movie personally, but I think we shall have a bit of patience because Rome wasn't built in a day. We live in a period that we expect great things to happen fast but in reality we need a bit of faith. Like come on, in 2025 we will have Superman Legacy and The Batman Part II which can put in acceleration all our hopes. Lets not forget that when Pattinson was casted in 2019 people laughed at the decision but then years later we have this brilliant performance.
In conclusion we need patience in order to get great DCU projects. Have some faith.
I dont think the DCU is going to flop, I think that the DCU is never going to happen
At some point someone at Warners Bros is going to realize that’s its way too many holes in the ship to say afloat
Amen to that
Yup.
Warner Bros. Didn't listen to the fans. That's the problem. Cavill was a much loved Superman and fans wanted to see more. DC was never meant to copy marvel.
I like Henry Cavill a lot but I didn't like his Superman. IMO Snyder didn't understand the character and Henry was stuck with the script that he was given. IMO Henry Cavill could have become the definitive Superman if he had the right script and a different director.
@@perceivedvelocity9914 I'm so tired how everyone says Snyder didn't understand Superman. He did because everyone complained that Superman Returns was too goofy like and was too much like the Reed films so Snyder gave them something different and had it grounded in reality BUT still in a comic world. It was also Superman discovering who he is and what his role is in planet Earth knowing he doesn't fit in with the world by being it's savor or it's destroyer.
@@scawfan75 I totally agree 👍
@@scawfan75Snyder absolutely understands the character. You absolutely nailed it here 🤘🏻
Warner Bros. doesn't know what they are doing. That's why they are failing.
She hit the nail on the head at the end. Make objectively good films, and the dedicated fanbase is to these comic book characters will show up to see them
But what is their target audience?? You cannot make a movie for everyone, so you have to stay dedicated to one particular tone and mannerisms in the movie which will be replicated to the other movies in the franchise.
and what is an objectively good film?
art is not objective, its subjective
a film made for audience a will not go well with audience b
the only way to make a "perfect" film is to make a film that reaches all audiences.
however, that would simply become boring, because it wouldn't be able to take big risks
James Gunn isn't for the comic book fans, he wants to introduce "unknown" characters so DC fans won't bombard him on the big hitters aka the A list characters, problem is what makes you think you can get C list and F list characters right when you can't get your big hitters right? I feel Gunn entering the picture complicated things even more but some may argue that Hamada doesn't have a vision but he was taking it slow and releasing solo films to recover from the disaster of the past which is good, Aquaman and the first Shazam film succeeded. Gunn's Suicide Squad and Peacemaker also succeeded tho, WW84, Black Adam and The Flash all failed, the Batman film is its own entity and part of its own universe. The main problem is that these people in charge don't understand these characters which is why an actual fan being president of DC films would be the right step(of course with some business knowledge as well), nobody should take charge cause they have "experience" with other superhero films, Marvel and DC are too different, one side doesn't like the light and corny comedic tone and the other dislikes the dark and gritty tone.
The one thing I find confusing about the people who complain about MCU films is that for years and years they've said they hate the whole interconnectivity of it and wish the MCU did more standalone films, yet the biggest complaint about DCU films I hear these days is how they they don't want to watch as they feel nothing in it matters since the universe is being rebooted. The same also complain that the MCU is becoming less cohesive and that they can no longer see where it is heading...wtf? 😬
um i think it all started after the end game, like how multiple movies were popping up and to understand it , we had to watch 11 movies, also for tv shows, i dont think audience thought that way before infinity war. after end game, the proper story ended, shows were starting, but the story and direction had no quality, tried to match with the main story, and failed sometimes. i feel the audience who hated the interconnectivity is a small portion or new fans of mcu.
and in dceu, they never maintained the story, batman v SM story was not great either, and they never continued a cemented story, especially in justice league, and now in flash. so dceu never mattered to me. MOS was good, WW 1 was good, Bm VS Sm was ok. i loved suicide squal 1 2, but others missed the direction and story and didnt make sense, it was not a good story nor fit the dc universe.
think of it like the star wars movies. Like a decade or so ago there was no much to be lost around, you got the original trilogy, the prequels, and a bunch of stuff like novels and comics that doesn't really matter unless you were a hardcore fun. So every now and then you met somebody who has never seen star wars and said " i wan't to watch it, but i don't know where to start", they knew they were all part of a saga and if they pick them in the wrong order there will be stuff you'll be lost about. Some people thought that was confusing they would not bother into watching star wars for that reason, and they were only 6 movies... Now I think the problem with DC is, people either go to watch these movies because they know they are part of the saga, but you don't really know if the new movie will be important, or people want to watch a stand alone film, but they are not sure because this movie seems to be conected to all these other movie which you did not watch (or don't like). The flash seems like something that would satisfied neither, as part of the DCU it seems skipable, it seems like it will no matter for the next one, but for the audience who want to watch a stand alone film this isn't it because is so connected to the other movies.
@@naegling But the connectivity is not what fans have been complaining about these days. That's what they complained about with the earlier films. It's the lack of connectivity and the future reboot of the franchise which is turning them off now.
I don't think it's directly connected, however, as a brand, it could. I just hope Gunn gets the right casting and avoid drama as much as possible.
C'mon, the writing's been on the wall for The Flash for months... years even. The whole production has been a cluster from the start, and Ezra's antics made sure that regular people wouldn't go see it. If James Gunn's universe is going to work, he's going to need to make better decisions, watch his money, and control his actors better. At this point, all I can say is... we'll see!
James Gunn's new DC announcement was the main reason for Flash's doom and the same is gonna happen to Blue Beetle and Aquaman
Yeah. Said the same. He shot himself in the foot with that announcement
I'm sure this movie was dead on arrival anyway.
I would say it's slightly disrupted it. The movie was already a mess to begin with and the Ezra Miller problem would have been there regardless.
Nah, Blue Beetle is so random it'll easily double Flashpoint just thru virtue of being something new. Imo it'll be an easy 80m base whereas I predicted Flash would be at 45 lol Latino audiences will eat it up no crumbs if the marketing plays it right, and by right I mean better than they ever have lol
@@nailinthefashion only real problem is there was actual nerd backlash to the "Batman's a fascist" joke in the trailer, I can imagine some people refusing to see it because people love to be upset by things in 2023. ;)
I’m not sure what numbers Ryan was looking at but The Dark Knight’s worldwide box office alone was more than Man of Steel’s total.
Exactly. That bit baffled me, as The Dark Knight AND The Dark Knight Rises both made over a billion each!!
I think he had the domestic totals by accident instead of the international totals
I was told Aquaman's success had to do with the huge boxoffice from China, and that China seems to have its own preferences for films. As a Chinese American, my guess is that China likes colorful sci-fi in the ocean. One of the biggest boxoffice movies in China was a movie called Mermaid.
China is also the only reason that Fast X made any profit.
I don’t think Gunn is cherry picking what he thinks works he has already made it pretty clear that he likes to highlight the more lesser known characters. That’s why he is keeping the blue beetle in particular because he is a lesser known character. I mean look at his past work The Guardians of the Galaxy, The Suicide Squad, and the show Peacemaker. Mostly lesser known characters, granted the suicide squad itself isn’t but the characters that he used in the movie were I mean Rat Catcher 2 and Polka Dot Man come on lol
Unfortunately the days when you could launch an unknown comic book character on the big screen and have a box office hit are over. The Blue Beetle proves that audiences just don't have the same desire to see comic book movies they once had. If that film came out in 2017, it would have been a hit.
The biggest break the MCU could have ever had, one that will never be repeated, is they were able to get Robert Downey Jr. for relatively cheap to be Iron Man. But note that Robert Downey Jr. had already cleaned up his life, and has been scandal-free since. You only hear about him now when it concerns his current work. That is what the DCU didn't get about doubling and tripling down on Ezra Miller.
😂😂😂😂😂
RDJ was harming himself with drugs.
EZRA was harming others with some kinky shit and spaced out fringe ideologies.
I think we overlook how in the early days of the MCU they always gave themselves an out if something flopped. The after credits of Iron Man teases a connected universe so if it flopped there wasn't a commitment. Even Guardians of the Galaxy was separated off in a way that it could be dropped if it didn't connect.
Cough amber heard cough
@@endoflifex944 exactly, johnny depp was doing coke and drinking himself to an early grave and enjoying the bajeezus out of it and pumping out pirate movies by the dozen. Then, along comes a spider, B-list Amber turd wants to ruin people's careers with insane allegations so that they become radioactive in Hollywood on her way out of a toxic marriage and into a favorable divorce settlement and steal/transform Johnny's A-list clout into her shining example of a battered wife, me too movement survivor A-list stolen valor reputation.
Spot the difference? RDJ and Johnny can mount a comeback. Turd and Ezra can't.
Maybe try stories written for a general audience (with Easter eggs for fans) with good character development, staying true to who the characters are (pre new 52) including what motivates them to be heroes, with a good plot, and compelling villain(s) for each movie.
I think Ezra was the biggest problem. I absolutely loved the movie, but having 2 Ezra’s was a bad move. I think had Ezra met Grant’s version and then them working together with Keaton and Calle, and ultimately bringing it to a point where it was Ezra’s version who made the sacrifice to leave us with Grant somehow would have been a great way to change the entire multiversal situation. I think WB’s marketing has also always been a problem, where they give away so much of the movies in their trailers that people also might feel like they can afford to wait to stream them, rather than go to the theater.
I'd be willing to bet, Extra Miller was unwilling to work with any of the other flash actors. There would be no other reason besides money.
Ezra was a huge stumbling block for the flash movie. The DC folks haven’t figured out how to combine individual movies together so that there’s a giant over arching problem that requires many of the superheroes to save the world. They have so many false starts that it may be better to just clear the table and begin again. Unfortunately, that could mean loosing actors that I loved in their roles; namely, Viola Davis, Gal Gadot, Henry Cavill, and Jason Momoa.
Which proves DC always making some real dumb decisions
Having 2 ezras was fine. It made the main Barry Allen dealing with his immature self, grow up. Thematically, it was the perfect way to teach himself what batman was trying to demonstrate that their past experiences shape who they become. The Flashpoint comic and animated film does a better job than this live action movie, but for some reason, they didn't want to straight up ripoff the comic or cartoon catchphrases, so the Ezra movie just created the "not every problem has a solution, Barry." Instead of the "...some things you just can't fix and having the wisdom to know the difference."
You needed to see 2 Barry Allens because it was basically about the selfish Barry vs the wiser Barry and their POV and personal growth.
@@LexiK1820 if netflix pulls off the impossible and can actually pull the zack snyderverse dceu into it's orbit, I think it would pacify the dc fandom if netflix could help zack finish the snyderverse with JL 2 and 3.
If you look at every dceu movie made after ZSJL, you can already tell that WB and DC were already pivoting and filming shazam, suicide squad, black adam and shazam 2 in the DCU MCU style, which fans just did not like at all.
2:44 false, MOS made less than the dark knight, the trilogy made over 2 billion as TDK made 1B and so did TDKR
This led to WB forcing Zack to make a cinematic universe pushing batman into a superman sequel instead of a proper Superman Sequel
What makes DC money is GOOD MOVIES, the TDK trilogy is GOOD, Aquaman might've been cheesy but its GOOD, the Joker (cost the least out of all the billion dollar films fromC) was GOOD, The Batman is GOOD
Just make GOOD movies
I think people are looking at Snyder's movies the wrong way. Yes Batman v Superman didn't make a billion dollars, but it also had heavy studio interference, which essentially forced Snyder to include things he might not have.
Say he had done BvS the way he wanted without interference, it likely makes more money and then he's given more trust and faith in his JL movie, it doesn't get changed and the studio waits for Snyder to finish it instead of bringing in someone else. Then it also likely would've made a billion. I think the studio interference is the problem. It was a problem with The Flash. And it's why marvel doesn't have that problem. They literally have their own studio that they created to push their brand and their cinematic universe.
It’s hard to get behind a DCEU movie if you know the DCEU is about to be rebooted
yeah i can only watch a movie if it is going to be connected to another movie. such a dumb reason
@@WilliamWelsh It is a very reasonable decision but the jerks like you cannot understand. Why invest time and money if there is no payoff. Many people are not billionaires and have to think about spending on each movie if they are cinema-going fans.
As a DC fan since I was a kid, I can say that based off people I know who aren't comic book fans, agreed that DC movies were more enjoyable when darker and griddy instead of comedic and corny. This is why the general audience seemed to have enjoyed the dark knight, Man of steel, and the Batman more
For real. Not to mention the new Matt Reves Batman, and J. Phoenix Joker.
Yeah the thing is, I don't want to see another MCU. A lot of criticism was because the tone was too dark, etc. but people still flocked to see The Batman,
They made a mistake by trying to make them corny like MCU, instead of fixing the screenplay and it all went downhill from there.
I personally am tired with superhero movies, including MCU. And if Gunn's DCU is just another rip-off of MCU, I don't think I will be interested.
@@fubytv731 Personally, I would say there's a problem if Batman movies and Superman movies have the same tone. I don't think that the DCU has to have a single tone that spans every movie. Winter Soldier and Ant-Man don't share the same tone, for instance.
I think dark and gritty work for Batman because he's a dark character. But not Superman. Some people didn't take a shine to Man of Steel. Supes was always a hopeful character. Truth, Justice and the American Way. Nobody wanted to see a moody Supes who snaps people's necks
@@radrobd123 They had the perfect setup in MOS for Superman to be hopeful and never kill/hurt anyone after having to kill his own people in the first day of job. It could have been a perfect MOS2 to develop how he came the real superman after that incident. Then they screwed it up for not following up with that idea in MOS2 and went for BvS instead. That movie had Superman killed a person in the first 20 minutes of the film to rescue Lois. So it showed that he didn't learn anything from MOS.
Huge props to Ryan bringing in experts to these new episodes (the AI discussion was great too!). I am absolutely loving these conversations. Keep up the content, by far my favourite source for nerd news!
I actually loved it. Not nearly as good as flashpoint paradox the animated movie but good
A live action close version of Flashpoint Paradox (with Jeffery Dean Morgan Thomas Wayne Batman and Lauren Cohen Martha/Joker, Reverse Flash, CGI skinny Henry Cavil, evil Aquaman and Wonder Woman) would have been epic and made over a Billion easily. No reason they couldn’t do that and then reboot the franchise from there.
Hollywood has lost all its creativity magic and replaced it with identity politics and race/gender swaps shoved down our throats. And if we don’t throw our now expensive movie ticket money at it, then we the audience are the problem. So ridiculous.
@@OperationOutstandingInField This was never a movie about Flashpoint to begin with, it was just tacked on last minute. It was a Flash origin movie that was planned in 2014, that saw multiple directors coming and leaving due to creative differences. And diff ppl working on the script. WB prob settled on half-assed Flashpoint bec they prob saw No Way Home and thought hey we can do this whole "multiverse" thing but with flash and be a hit. It also doesnt help when the lead role is a criminal, a pedo and is prevented from doing any promotional for the movie
It has nothing to do with WB doing identity politics or whatever rabbit whole you think went down Lol
My reasoning for why it flopped was the fact that he wasn’t a memorable Flash. Snyder Cut tried to make him to be big hero status, especially after all of the scandals started.
Snyder Flash was weirdly timid for a guy who can run faster then a speeding bullet. Compared to comic/Arrowverse Flash who is as smart as he is fast, and is a bit of a smartass.
Speaking of Arrrowverse, they already did Flashpoint on screen, as well as DC Animated Universe.
Timid and powerful heroes do not convey confidence from the audience. This is evident in all things of life, from being picked for a pickup game, to dating, to voting/politics
I don't trust Gunn, I think he just took this on as a vanity project I think his Superman is going to tank (I honestly hope it does) because there was vision and they just threw it all away because of pride. We didn't want a reboot. We didn't want 3 Batmen. Gunn also seems to contradict himself, and out and out lie to people about what's gone on/what is going on. It's horrible.
J. Gun resemblance to Adam Savage is... uncanny
_THIS!_ My husband was watching an Adam Savage video one day and I _legit_ thought it was James Gunn. 😂
Zak made good movies they just didn't give him enough time to really develop the universe and I think James Gunn is going to completely have the universe super goofy
Gonna be mediocre af
Based on the slate I think the reboot is gonna be more diverse in tone. Zack Snyder made good movies but they were all centered on the Justice League and their villains. The new slate seems like it’s gonna be more setting up a broad universe from jump, which allows for more tone diversity. Like obviously stuff like Booster Gold is gonna be goofy, but ain’t no way you make a goofy Swamp Thing movie. And they literally said Paradise Lost is gonna be like Game of Throne with Amazons.
Between ezras issues, the weird vfx/cgi, the weird story, and the fact it isn't part of the new universe, it kind of makes the film feel like a high budget fan film
Kinda feel 3 things for this one. First one is Ezra Miller. A lot has come out and I'm sure that has put fans off. Second is DC's reputation. They did really well with the Nolan films, and arguably with the Snyder ones, but you had Superman Returns and Green Lantern around the time of the former, and a mess with the latter as they try to make their own universe. The third is probably more telling: When you go into a DC film, you go in for a super hero film. On the other hand the Marvel films you do go in to see a super hero, but you could be going into a space opera, or a political thriller, or a horror film or something else. Yes the heroes are the focus, but they are also genre films and make it seem more natural.
yeah that's why I think DC kinda had a hot streak going these past few years they were focusing on making good genre films instead of a connected universe The Batman was a noir detective thriller, The Sucide Squad was war comedy, Birds of Prey was a story about a woman learning to find herself after getting out of an abusive relationship, ZSJL showed the importance of director freedom and became the only Snyder film I liked, but that went away with Black Adam, Shazam and The Flash movies that feel like were made by studios and just played it safe with little to no heart The Flash was probably the best of these 3 but with so many things bogging it down it failed even though it might not have been the best and there is another far better multiverse movie currently in theaters it was still a fun watch
Space opera? Horror film? Political thriller?????? What marvel movies are you talking about lol I
@@ezshottah3732Space Opera: GOTG trilogy, Political Thriller: Winter Soldier or Secret Invasion, Horror Film: Werewolf by Night or Dr Strange MoM
@@LiterallyBatman1610 never heard of werewolf. Calling gotg a space opera is just high praise because there is nothing “opera” about it lol
@@jpc2470 why they call it an opera then 😂. They’re tryna make it sound cooler than it is lol
What it REALLY hurts is Warner's reluctance to spend the HUGE amounts needed for blockbusters anymore in Gunn's universe *may be affected by the continued dceu flops
Good give the money to AEW.
I even doubt that Gunn gets to make his movie. I figure WBD will sell off DC for the money. Leaving Gunn behind.
Given that The Batman was the best film DC put out in years on half the budget of the rest, I'm not worried about Gunn not getting a quarter billion per film. Any decent director can make a good film for a fraction of that. And Gunn is better than decent, at least as far as comic book movies goes.
The problem is that WB set a standard when they fired Depp. They didn’t uphold that standard for all employees in a fair and equal manner. They continued to say they didn’t care what fans want or think. So I don’t think there is no hope for DC/WB, but they need to shut up about protecting crappy people and actually listen their fans.
I would consider myself a Snyder fan. I love Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, and the Snyder cut. In my opinion, Man of Steel is a masterpiece. All thanks to Henry Cavill. He IS Superman. Casting doesn't get more perfect than Henry Cavill's Superman.
It completely broke my heart to see these movies spiral out control and not feel connected anymore. But when I saw Henry Cavill return in Black Adam and heard the news of James Gunn being the head of DC, the future looked really bright. The Suicide Squad was great, and the Guardians of the Galaxy movies are fantastic; James Gunn knows how to make movies. With Gunn's experience with The Suicide Squad, I figured the DCEU would get somewhat of a soft reboot. But they chose to reboot the universe entirely. As a huge Henry Cavill Superman fan, this news was heartbreaking and drastic for me. It just freaking sucks. Henry Cavill deserved better, as do his fans.
But it is what it is, I guess. There's no point in complaining about something that's never going to change. Instead, I want to be optimistic and supportive of James Gunn and his plan for the future of DC. As I already said, he makes great movies, so I have faith in him. I hope Superman: Legacy is a great film and a great start to the DCU.
You like that superman?
Did you get a chance to read up on what Snyder wanted to do with him?
Long story short, batman has a baby with Lois so superman joins Darkseid
Im not making this up, it's the whole plot point Snyder made his whole JL on!
I think the great casting couldn’t out run zacks pen lol He wrote a terrible Clark and John Kent(who was cool with letting kids die on a buss and sacrificed himself for no reason ) which I think make up a huge part of who Superman is.
@GEEZY_2344 absolutely agree, but it would have gotten so much worse!
The plan from the beginning was to have batman have a baby with Lois then superman would join Darkseid out of beta b---h energy.
I promise I'm not making this up, WB green lit this!
@@bradbrad6521 I believe it after some of the writing choices already.
I think this failure of The Flash will ultimately make this a hard reboot rather than a soft one. I'm sorry it's disappointing, and I'm right there with you about casting. Snyder is really exceptional at that. But I think it's better to look forward than look back. I think Gunn is so good with character work, I'm more than happy for him to get the chance to make his own Superman film. It's hard to get excited about something we can't imagine, so it's tempting to look back at what we liked and wish for more. But what we really enjoy most is something new, something unlike anything we've ever seen. So long as it's good.
In order to create a multiversal story line that works, you need people invested in each character involved to make it understandable and palatable to wide audiences. I just think that with Ezra being who they are and only having been in some of the DC movies makes it hard to get invested in such a deep story line with that version of Flash.
Bingo. Audiences care about seeing Rami and Webb Spider-Man characters who provided to the plot of NWH's multiverse whereas the multiverse stuff we got in Flash was barely 5-minute cameos besides Keaton Batman,
One thing no one considers is the timeline of film release. In the MCU there was more than a film a year. You cannot demand people being committed for a saga with years between a film and another one, like in the DC film universe. "Flash" the film came 6 years after the official Justice League film, i.e. 6 years after the character came to in the DC universe: you cannot expect people wait that long. Do you want to build a DC film universe? Make it quick!
Meanwhile the real Flash just had it's 9th Season. Grant Gustin should have been in this movie then I'd actually want to see it.
I kind of like the idea of multiple Jokers, including one played by Willem Defoe who is plausibly the same person as Joaquin Phoenix, but never confirmed as such.
Gunn is still set up for his typical goofy, relatable yet strongly masculine projects but imo the crucial part will be if he will make Superman and Batman feel refreshing. It's not a matter of if he can, but if the execution will be equal to or greater than Star Lord etc
Exactly. They need to make new films that make everyone forget there was ever any other Batman or Superman film. They need to leave the DCEU behind. Clearly, the audience already has.
@@rottensquid I think it will be too hard to make people forget entirely, so they'd need to respect that there may be better (the dark knight) or more fun (batman and robin) Bats or Supes: but just say "this is who we are now" and be more additive than destructive moving forward. I have no idea what they were doing with each new project and neither did they hahaha
What sets Feige apart is that he truly believes in "yes and" which is why Marvel is so saturated yet successful still. So instead of torching the early Avengers lore, we've only built off of it
Flashpoint should be their Avengers 1 imo and they just assume we know all the big hitters already, no more traditional origin stories
I mean imagine if the mcu lost rdj, evans, and hemsworth early on into phase 2 and then ruffalo went on a crime spree, the mcu would not gave made it.
I love how you blame Snyder fans. I’m not even a die hard Snyder fan beyond maybe 1-2 of his movies an I can see that is all BS. James Gunn must be paying you very well to try to defend a universe that he even admitted started with the flash. Ya blame the actions of few toxic Snyder fans but let’s not at all blame the idiot who fights on twitter with fans about what they want in a movie. Perfect sense.
I don’t get how they blame Snyder but spend majority of the time saying it’s really the studios fault for rushing to be like Marvel. Surely Snyder’s “failure” was down to the poor direction above him and they should stop blaming him. Worst yet they don’t realize it was their whining about the Snyder movies that caused WB to lose direction of where they were going.
My theory for the end of The Flash movie is that knowing how much people hated the Clooney batman movies it would be the perfect universe to drop the current flash in and just leave behind. I don't think we'll see them ever reprise their roles as batman or flash so it makes sense to leave him behind where no one else wants to go back to.
Clooney has repeatedly commented that he hated his performance and the movie. Val Kilmer is too sick for a cameo. Why they didn't get Christian Bale for a the cameo is beyond me.
@@ewarrior9776he probably didn’t want to spend 3 months lifting weights in a dark room and sleeping upside down for a 15-second cameo
This is anecdotal but everyone I know don't really like going to the cinema anymore. Not even the die hard movie goers. I think movies being made available at streaming services during
covid really showed how much of a hassle going out to the cinema is and a lot us of prefer waiting for movies to be available online.
Exactly! I was one of those people who loved going to the theater. I'd go all the time have myself a double feature but that was pre covid. Once I had the option to watch in the comfort of my own home, that's where I want to stay. I bought a few movies on Disney plus the same day they hit theaters, back when we had that option. Now I'll wait til they hit the streaming apps.
GOTG 3 made $830M at the box office. People still go to the cinema, just not for shit movies.
Sure, but some movies are successful. It's still important to see what's different about the movies that don't do well compared to those that do.
Super Mario movie made over a billion dollars avatar 2 made 2 billion That is clearly not the problem
exactly
If Blue Beetle bombs, then James Gunn and WB have to be worried because that movie is supposed to be the "official start" of James Gunn's DCU.
Superman: Legacy is the official start. The Blue Beetle character will be a part of the DCU…while not being an official DCU movie. Kinda confusing but Blue Beetle was made before James Gunn became head of DC. Not sure why they don’t consider it “Elseworld”…they must really like the way Xolo plays the character
Aint nobody gonna watch a Mexican beetle.
Blue Beetle looks like it's going to be more like a Dung Beetle.
If movie bombs then James Gunn will say "Oh,Its part of old DCEU"😂
For me, I really wanted to see MK back as Batman, next Kevin Conroy, I think he's been the best. I went to see Batman like 3 or 4 times as a kid. My dislike of Ezra's whole deal, the disappointment of past DC movies (BvS, JL, Black Adam, Suicide Squad 1, etc) and the "edgyness" that Zack Snyder injected into everything is what kept me home. I'm really hoping JG can right the ship and if the trailers look good, I'm back in.
Funny thing about all this - The Batman was a fantastic movie with an interesting story and character development. Most comic book films don't do this at all anymore. Wakanada forever? The best character development in that film was T-challa. Dr. Strange? Scarlet Witch breaking bad was not earned. Superman v. Batman and the rest of the Schneider verse has no character development.
I just hope James Gunn takes DC seriously
Because I'll be damned if it has the same comedic tone of the MCU
DCEU has already tried to be super serious and most of their movies flop and for good reason. They are all overproduced bad CGI messes and none of the characters are likable or uniqie.
Hate on Marvel if you must but the world prefers it over a batman who uses guns or the worst superman suit I have ever seen... all terrible.
Give me a funny happy Thor or a quippy Iron-man anyday.
@@Dan55888 the Snyder Cut proves otherwise
The issue is that you have a fan base that by itself can't guarantee a blockbuster. However that same fan base can guarantee a blockbuster flop. All that group is after is a resolution to a their story by the group that created it. A lot of influencers have consistently told the fans to speak with their wallets and the effects of it are showing. From the outside looking in it appears that they disrespected a beloved Superman with the cameo fiasco. They gave into the base with the Justice league Snyder cut only to make him release it as a 4+ hour long film. That's a difficult thing to sit through for any movie. Also IMHO if they had released it as a small miniseries week by week it could have had a positive impact on the HBO Max subscription numbers. The flash movie had a plethora of things going against it. I just want to note that the Superman cameo and Justin league story continuity were a huge part of the boxoffice numbers. Not to mention that all of this negative discussion 0re release didn't help. One last point, I do think this really sucks eggs for WB Discovery, is that the Snyder fans want a completion to their story on some medium. A lot of people invested a lot of money and time into this universe. Rebooting at this point is a lot harder for to accept than just finishing the two other justice league movie then do some sort of crisis event to reboot the universe. James Gunn could have sat down with Zach Snyder, made two or three good movies and brought the universe to a close. Then the Snyder fans would feel satisfied instead of neglected.
In a world where guardians of the galaxy and across the spiderverse came out and hit big you really brought up superhero fatigue...it was Ezra Miller..
I agree. Superhero fatigue is laughable when Disney has yet to release Deadpool, The X-Men, Blade (not just his voice) and The Fantastic Four into the MCU.
Did Ezra Miller poison Shazam box office? Need to find more connecting issues than that
James Gunn's announcement was very unclear and to this day I'm still not sure what the plan for the universe is or how Flash ties into it.
The first negative thing I heard about this film was from an 18 year old the week before it came out. He complained about Ezra Miller. This was a kid who watched the CW show, was familiar with the character, and goes to comic movies regularly. He was NOT going to see this because of Ezra Miller and predicted it would flop. I thought he was crazy. Since the movie flopped I keep hearing the same thing - "I hated this because of Ezra Miller"- In comic shops " I hated this but if Ezra Miller wasn't in it and everything else remained exactly the same I would have liked it" led the hate on UA-cam/ podcast reviews. These people didn't say this subtly, they were adamant about it. It appears, from what I've witnessed, that people didn't care about Keaton, they let their dislike of Miller keep them away - at least until it goes to streaming. Shazam was announced that it was going to streaming a couple of weeks after it came out. If people saw that and thought they were willing to wait it out, that might explain part of this. It will be interesting to see how many views the film gets when it goes to streaming on MAX.
I hadn't watched the phase 1 movies until after Avengers 1...I liked that there was a history that I could go back to and even see things payoff in later movies... It's why I watch channels like screen crush. In my opinion marvel has tried to tell stories they think people will like, while other studios have tried to recreate the success. Tell good stories please
Umm didn’t the Snyder cut get released for free on HBO? No wonder why it didn’t make money. I’m not paying for a disc copy if something is free.
This isn't about superhero fatigue, to me at least. I think Ezra was the biggest problem, and the quality of the special effects wasn't that good.
And about the Justice League wasn't that good, the humor was too much, and Steppenwolf wasn't that big of a threat once Superman was in it. I thought Zack Snyder's Justice League was way better, but I didn't see it until it was release on Blu-Ray.
Great video w/ plenty to think about. Regarding superhero fatigue, I would reference what Gunn has said about being tired of “spectacles” w/out an emotionally grounded story. Similar to what Colton and Joanna said, DC needs to focus on good movies first then universe second.
Also, like Ryan, I am a bit worried for the DCU. Some of the general audience is growing tired of cinematic universes & the homework that comes w/ it. Still, multiple versions of a character like Batman could work if the DCU’s Bat is distinct from Matt Reeves’ version.
All in all, I’m still excited for the DCU movies and television projects bc I trust James Gunn. I believe in his ability to shepherd stories that make you care about the characters and universe overall.
Much love to Ryan and the ScreenCrush team for these awesome videos.
For many people who liked MAN OF STEEL, it DID have an emotionally grounded story. Gunn seems like he's going to keep the stuff he likes/worked on that people also happened to like, and discard stuff he didn't work on that people also liked (Affleck's Batman, Cavill's Superman, Gal Gadot's WW). As I stated above, I'm just mad about the new DCU, I'm just not particularly interested.
My biggest concern with Gunns new universe is that it’s gonna have too much silliness and I’m one of those people that really loved Snyders gritty take on it but if he can keep it grounded at the same time then I think that’s the key and I think that’s what Marvel did very well. They took these cosmic issues and made them seem like they could be real….
Yes but Zach needed 2 bites of the Cherry and a 4 hour run time to get it right
@@edsmith4821 I think if the studio would have given him time to grieve his daughter, which is the worst thing that could ever happen to a parent, and then let him get back to work; it might have been that good the first time but they let Whedon come in and do his thing because they were only concerned with getting their money back as quickly as possible and don’t get me wrong, I may be a fan of his work but I’m not one of his fanatics so I don’t think he’s perfect by any means and I do agree that he would have to make it work in 3 hrs like everyone else so maybe it worked out for the best.
Knowing they are rebooting it just felt like a movie to watch with no future impact.
Exactly!
felt the same with Shazam 2 and then Black Adam
I believe the Ezra Miller drama is the overwhelming reason why The Flash flopped. At this point there is no way they can reprise this role. This causes an real issue as there is just no point to see this movie. This arch is resolved, but unlike an Endgame there is no closer as this film was supposed be the beginning of the new U, but Ezra killed that and you cannot recast him because it would be too awkward with the multiverse where actor changes are noticed on screen. So any excitement the viewer is intended to leave the film with is cancelled now. So there just no point to waste time and money on a dead end like this. Instead of reshooting the ending with Clooney being the WTF moment, they should have had a new Barry be the cliffhanger. No one would see it coming and now you have limitless directions to go in. But, I have to tell you overall this was one of the better DCU movies, but it was truly wasted and destroyed by the actions of Ezra Miller. The best bet for Gunn and the DCU would be to just walk away from the film by publicly removing it from canon and just start the Gunn U over from a fresh POV. I hope this all makes sense.
By the way The Suicide Squad is my favorite DCU movie too. We need more Elba, Robbie, and co. for sure!
Lol all the new DC films are flopping because yall wont support DC in theaters but stay saying the Snyderverse sucked
For me it was because so much behind the scenes movement, different people with input on the story, and if Cavill and Affleck are no longer there then the DCU i invested in too see good stories is already done.
With the way things have been going for Marvel I don't think the standard for them is that high anymore so if they manage to just get few decent movies then most fans will be on board
Marvel movies are still doing well in theaters though and even with their share of issues, their films have collectively been substantially better.
Besides, we need to quit comparing them directly to Marvel. They can both succeed at the box office if DC gets it together.
I mean DCEU lays the bar extremely low.
The MCU WAS good and is now only ok, but there is no time I can think of that the MCU has ever dipped as low as even DCEUs best movie...
@@atlien1988but Marvel shows how it is possible. DCEU just seems to always pull out garbage...
Until DCEU does WAY better then it will always be compared to MCU
Can’t compare a franchise that is still in phase 1 while the other is finally stumbling all the way in phase 5
@@ChefBoydrdee WB/DC started making D.C. comicbook movies in 1978 - a full 30 years before Ironman 1. Marvel didnt get a head start.. D.C. did AND were in bankruptcy when they made Ironman 1. - now they are worth 6x more than the entire Discovery_Warner corporation. By the time the MCU was as old as the DCEU is - they were already the highest grossing franchise in movie history.
More people seemed to have boycotted due to Ezra Miller than I thought. But I'm surprised more people didn't see it for Michael Keaton and despite the cgi issues it's actually a good movie.
Im disappointed alot of people didn't see it just cos it won't have a sequel in the same universe. There are lots of good standalone movies, superhero movies are not obligated to connect to a wider franchise.
James Gunn is the elephant in the movie. He talks too much and he is all over the place. You never see Feige or Snyder yapping online all the tine. I mean Gunn was even talking about his casting for superman the weekend Flash was coming out. Who does that? His actions undercut these movies and announcing a reset when movies connected to the old universe are still coming out was just bad PR. Who will get invested in these movies when they know Gunn is restarting everything in a few months?
I have little faith in WB because they have little faith in their own product. I do however, following GOTG, The Suicide Squad and Peacemaker, feel happy to give some faith to Gunn.
James Gunn and WB need to realise that they must include Paul Dini and Bruce Timm for the DCU coz they understand DC characters much better than anyone else out there. There is still time, else it is doomed to fail.
I personally think it’s going to take us as the audience to go in with no expectations or comparisons. So many DC properties are going to be compared to Marvel, but these are two TOTALLY different studios. I think Gunn has a love for not only comic book hero’s and their stories, but more importantly a love for FILMMAKING. I’ve been hoping the best for DC films moving forward, but time will tell all tales.
Exactly. These days every film is setup to fail because most people don't go to see the film itself but entry X in cinematic universe Y.
Is this really the case? The stand alone Batman movie was a huge success, so was Joker...
@@simon_lukas true but we were eagerly expecting the Matt Reeves Batman due to Afleck stepping down from the role at that time, and I think Joker was a new idea that gained a lot of momentum and excitement. Perhaps and hopefully less involved enthusiasts will gain excitement with the new universe when the artistic vision is fully realized.
I feel like aside from Ezra being a big factor in the flash flop DC movies have always been shaky. There are some stand out good ones but the majority of them have been very polarizing leaning towards being bad movies and stories regardless of how much money they made. I feel like the suits in trying to be like Marvel sacrificed a lot of what makes superhero movies great and rushed all these team ups instead of focusing on the individual characters and their stories
It’s definitely not because of superhero fatigue it’s 100% Ezra I’m sure Gunns DC will be fine
As long as Guns DC universe is the complete opposite of the current DCEU and they hire people who pop a lot better on screen
The quality was terrible. I know the flashpoint story and this was not it. Snyder had the vision but DC failed. Also the more we talk about, it will continue to fail.
The way James Gunn killed the DCEU left a bad taste. And who would watch something that is already dead. James Gunn should have let the upcoming DCEU movies have its glory before dropping the REBOOT bomb.
I think if BvS extended version and the Snyder Cut were the theatrical versions, audiences would have liked them so much better. The movies actually made sense with the plot and motives. Because the theatrical versions left such a bad taste in everyones mouth, they didn't want to bother with the updated versions. With the new Flash movie, it's not so much that it didn't matter about connecting the film to a larger franchise that is in limbo and ending soon, but more so about it didn't matter in its own movie. He went back in time, then reset everything so it felt like the movie was pointless.
Great discussion. Thanks for the insights. I am hopeful that the DCU will be a success, especially if they focus on making good movies.
I'm willing to bet that James Gunn has sealed the fate of the DC film franchise
He made a film with a talking tree and a talking Raccoon as some of the main characters that was full of unknown characters . The first Guardians trailer was amazing and it became a hit. He’ll be fine.
It is simple. The Flash was not a good movie. Constantly blaming Snyder fans for the current state of DC does nothing to heal the fan base. I loved Man of Steel, I did not like BvS. Justice League was butchered by Joss Whedon and the Flash felt like Whedon’s Justice League to me. Zack Snyder’s Justice was so much better.
As a MCU fan I am much more worried about it’s current state.
I am excited to see what James Gunn does with the DCU. If it is good people will show up.
I think the Flash was really good imo. I think the reason it didn't do well at the box office is because they tried to connect everything together. I saw the movie twice and the kids whom sat next to me kept asking their dad who is this and who is that, as if they have never seen Man of Steel or zs Justice League. The film is real fast paced and if they dont know who Zodd is they clearly wont get the movie. I made my gf watched all the major DC films (starting with 1978 Superman aka the best DC film) prior the Flash and she understood and enjoyed the whole experience. The Flash is on my top 5 for sure.
Super hero fatigue doesn't exist. We just need great movies. Guardians and Wakanda Forever did just fine
The reason the earlier Movies made a lot of money is because we were all excited and wanted to be there to see the franchise take off. After Batman V Superman, I stopped seeing DCEU movies opening weekend and waited to hear how people liked the movies before i went. Which makes me sad, because I want to be excited to see a Superman movie.
When think about the Marcel movies and the good DC movies, there usually is development for the Characters. In the Flash and the not so good DC movies, there is more focus on the world changing and big things that disconnect the viewers. Part of this is definitely based on the team up being rushed. Even if we are familiar with the character in general the audience needs to understand which iteration of the character this is and then let them move forward.
Damn shame "Fans" are making Gunn's universe fail because they are having a tantrum that the studio got tired of Snyderverse flops.
He's one of the few directors who can mesh serious themes and comedy without going too far in either direction.
You guys call it bullying but how you talk is exacting the same bullying so which is it?
Gunn didn't even have a chance to take over when this bomb was in development. It's not necessarily part of his grand plan. I also think we can ignore the fact that Ezra Miller is toxic to any movie or franchise he's apart of. Maybe with this multiverse, they can recast him too.
It would be so smart to just ignore Ezra and have multiple Flashes moving forward. Could literally mill him off screen like "oh yeah there was another speedster... he blew up"
But I think they're gonna give him a send off and that's so gross
I truly believe that insulting Snyderverse fans and trying to separate them from the rest of the fanbase isn't wise. Very much most of Snyderverse fans are decent (many are toxic of course, however, trolls are everywhere) and we wanted something that Warner would respect. And the studios were really disrespectful to Snyder his family and us as fans. May I remind you that many directors, such as, Christopher Nolan have been soured by their relationship with Warner Brothers and the fact that they have had such inner fighting and company selling is a great example as to how their self centered decisions have led to their downfall. And this is something that both Snyder fans and the mainstream would agree with. Maybe not refer to an entire fanbase as bullies but hide it as a quirp. By the way, Warner Brothers themselves referred to the Snydercut as a global phenomenon.
I will say that Burnout is definitely a factor. Both Marvel and DC are going the way of the Westerns (quoting Spielberg). Snyder wasn't perfect, nevertheless, his movies were consistent, his aesthetic was unique and he was clear that his characters were more grounded on reality as in; how would the world truly react to a world like this! This in effect made it truly different from Marvel. And his Superman was a work in progress movie by movie, which he was clear about as well.
I think studios vastly overestimate people's willingness to keep spending money on mediocre movies.
Or going to the cinema in general. People are broke.
The problem is most movies today is there is no story anymore. People just think they want want cheap jokes and cool fight scenes. But it’s good story’s that we crave
Gunn and Ezra tanked the Flash movie.
One big issue with the DCU films going forward is Gunn himself. There are Synderverse fans who might not like anything moving forward, but there's also a mindset with fan of us versus them with Marvel and DC films. There are some overlaps between franchises with fandom, but a good number of fans still want the distinction between the two. James Gunn started as a Marvel guy, and putting him in charge feels like Joss Whedon all over again.
I agree @Walsfeo, it's definitely not fatigue. There's many reasons why all of the DC movies either under performed or just missed the mark entirely.
I've said this from the beginning, one of their biggest problems is that they do not cast the right people for any of their leading roles. Ya, they have some great actors on the team but they're not right for their roles. I don't think any of the actors currently portraying DC heroes are the right ones. If Gunn wants any hope of making this a success he needs to cast the right actors. They also need to stop trying to copy the MCU! Stop announcing 9 movies with release dates over the next 4 years. Marvel does that now, but they earned it. They only started doing that after they successfully released 5-8 movies. DC wants to just jump in from the first stage to the 4thb phase... THEY TRIED THAT AND IT FAILED! SO STOP LOL.
FORGET JUGGLING 9 FILMS, CONCENTRATE ON THE ESSENTIALS. If they just stuck to the source material & cast the right people and bring out solo movies for a couple members of the Justice League, they wouldve al ready had a successful universe of films. James Gunn did a great job with the Guardian films but I don't have much hope for his new DC Universe.... sad 😢😢😢
In my opinion they had the tools in place to make good superman films. Henry Cavill was loved by the fans but the scripts let him down massively. Ezra Miller is not likable and the fact they gave us two Barry's was a disaster and I found him bloody annoying so I'm not surprised it flopped. Maybe if Henry Cavill's superman was in it people might have been more hyped and it could have been a heroic ending for his superman and close out that whole universe and now ready to start again with James Gunn's vision. They missed a big opportunity to make a good movie. Unfortunately nobody cares.
Finally at the end of the video Joanna makes the very point I’ve been saying on my head the whole time. Just make good movies.
They can be dramatic, funny, or whatever, but make a good movie based on a good story first.
I do appreciate some of the fan service done in movies as a long time fan myself. But even Marvel is trying too hard to force too many cameos of old characters, introduce new characters, etc. into their movies. Not to mention that the Spider-verse movies have done some of the best explaining of the multiverse that even my 8yo son was waaay excited during the last one and wouldn’t stop asking questions or eventually explaining how things worked as he got it through the movie.
The Batman and Joker were awesome movies. Good stories and good actors portraying them. It would be interesting to see those two eventually become enemies to see how that plays out, but that will never happen in the DCEU.
In the end I’m glad I waited a couple weeks to go see the Flash because it didn’t live up to the hype. Time will tell how the Gunn DCEU plays out.
For it to have "FLOPPED" there sure are a lot of people who enjoyed the movie. I wonder if all these UA-cam channels talking down on it has anything to do with it commercially?
Just cause a small minority of people of enjoyed doesn't take away the fact that this movie is a financial failure. This movie has been out for 2 weeks now and it's only made $200 million dollars total. It cost $250 million dollars to make this movie. Thats a flop.
Well said..
Haha, if a "lot" of people liked it, it would have been far more financially successful. What you're describing is the vocal minority. I personally enjoyed most of the movie, but even I can be reasonable and say that the movie was a huge mess with dreadful CGI.
My personal opinion is nobody really likes that Gunn is taking over. I actually liked Superman, and Batman vs Superman. It was a different take on the characters as well as Batman. Personally i loved Affleck as Batman. Hes a more beefier and scary Batman which what Batman is supposed too be. A lot of the other Batmans were too bright, probably another reason why people loved Keaton as Batman. And im pretty sure Keaton could uave saved his Joker when he slipped through his hands on that ledge. And another reason i know a lot of people who loved Snyders Justice League, and it was left unfinished with the whole Darkseid thing. I loved the 4 hour movie because it gave the characters more time to develop and show you why they neede too team up. So not being able too see Justice League 2 and 3 and possibly more cameos bums me out. So why would i go to the theater to go see the Flash for the DCEU which is no longer going too be around? Im not a huge fan of James Gunn but im not at all excited for another reboot or soft reboot for some of these characters. Ive seen that plenty. There's no continuation like Marvel is. I thought they found a perfect Superman character, a perfect Wonder Woman character, Jason Mamoa and every Batfleck, and i even liked cyborg. But here we go again and lets start over. Im done with that.