The Missing O’Hare Train
Вставка
- Опубліковано 5 чер 2024
- Not many travelers know about the Metra North Central Service. This train runs between Chicago Union Station and Antioch, IL... but only 6 times a day. One interesting feature of the North Central Service is that there is actually an O'Hare Airport station. Since the transit connections to O'Hare are fairly slow, Thom decided to try out the North Central Service to see if it was a good way to get to the airport. It was not, so in this video, we're talking about what we would change and improve. These improvements could transform the line into a high-quality airport access train.
Trains Are Awesome!
Support us on Patreon: / trainsareawesome
Our Instagram: / tra_channel
Chapters
0:00 Introduction
1:14 What Other Countries Do
2:07 Introducing the North Central Service
3:22 Chicago Union Station
4:41 Boarding the Train
5:37 Departure
6:41 Western Avenue
7:50 Passing Intermediate Stations
8:59 Moving onto the CN Line
9:26 O'Hare Transfer Metra Station
11:58 Walking to the ATS
12:47 Riding the ATS
14:13 The North Central Service is NOT a good alternative
14:29 Fares
14:49 Speeding up the Route
15:41 Redeveloping O'Hare Transfer Station
17:19 My Proposed Service
17:56 Why I Made this Video
19:05 The USHSRA's Proposal - Авто та транспорт
A lot of the problem here in the US was caused by FAA. Up until 2020 or 2019, FAA had a rule saying that any federal funding for the airport, cannot be used on municipal projects. And railway/light rail direct links are considered municipal projects. That's why you can find tons of airports have a people mover but seldom do you see them have a direct rail link
Thanks for the insight! I didn’t know about that law. Gotta love government obstructing public transport improvement…
@@Thom-TRAThere’s a practical reason for this: airport funding comes from passenger facility charges and aviation fuel taxes. If there wasn’t a demarcation of funding, localities would try to tap aviation improvement funds to pay for non-aviation projects that don’t benefit the airport, or have a very limited benefit to the airport. Either way, there’s a reason why the FTA exists, and transit funding should be coming from the appropriate funding sources.
If perhaps the GOP would support infrastructure projects instead of obsessing about Hunter Biden’s laptop, CRT or three trans swimmers ruining women’s sports, projects like this one could get federal funding. Republicans typically scream “SOCIALISM!!!” and vote NO but are quick to apply for funding for their districts and states after an infrastructure bill passes without their help. Just saying.
@@TenMinuteTrips as a European I always laugh my head off at all the absurd things that can be labeled socialist here.
I worry about the kind of nonsense we’re going to get dragged through the next 2 years in the house. Glad Amtrak’s already been promised their money…
@@bradzeigler
That's one of the annoying things about US federal and state tax codes - everything's distributed _before_ it's even collected, instead of being pooled up and then distributed as needed. Public Education, for example, only gets its funding from property taxes and, in some states, lottery ticket sales.
Chicago actually tried to get a nonstop service to o'hare & midway a number of years ago- spent a ton of money digging out a "superstation" under block 37 before eventually just scrapping the whole idea due to poor planning and costs.
I was going to comment the same thing.
not sure if it is completely scrapped, Think the project is just on hold until the wester access terminal at O'hare is an active plan.
@@Nickvet419 I mean sure yeah- but there hasn't been active development in like 15 years.
It was for this project that the Washington/State red line station was closed, and also to build Block Thirty Seven which did actually get completed. But you can still walk through it by walking down the platform between Lake and Monroe. The signage is gone but there are still tiles that say Washington/State as you pass by.
@@Nickvet419 station is there. No current plans to develop. It's been a money pit for a few mayors. Elon Musk wants to use it for an underground line.
An O'Hare nonstop service definitely has potential, especially since the Airport Transit System is free. Meanwhile if you wanted to take the AirTrain to EWR's terminals from the airport's train station...it's currently *EIGHT DOLLARS.* And that's on top of the $15.50 NJ Transit fare for one person if you're coming from NY Penn.
One small correction: Both Milwaukee District North AND West serve Western Avenue!
Thanks for the comment!
As for Western Ave, I merely said that the MDN splits off there, so it’s your last chance to transfer. In the next sentence, I mention the MDW line!
I think an alternative would be to construct a new train terminal next to the Milwaukee District west. Not only will it relieve congestion from the Blue line and remove difficulties from the NCS line but it would also allow Milwaukee District west trains to have access to O'hare Airport, Amtrak trains would also get access to O'hare, and Electrification more easily be implemented since you don't have to deal with Canadian National and an airport express can easily be implemented and access to the terminals via O'hare ATS.
O'Hare needs to stop monetizing air and should start focusing on better transportation for its passengers! (if you've watched The Lorax...you know).
O'Hare fun facts: The code ORD comes from Orchard Field Airport, which the airport was renamed to from Douglas Airport after the Douglas Aircraft Company opted to concentrate their civil production in California after the end of WWII. It was renamed again to O'Hare in 1949 after Edward "Butch" O'Hare, the US Navy's first flying ace and Medal of Honor recipient in WWII
That ORD fact blew my mind, I love learning history stories like this. And rip, I think the Lorax would be pretty disappointed in our society…
I live right by the Metra North Central Service (NCS) line in the northern suburbs. I've read repeated news stories over the years that the main obstacle to expanding passenger service on this line is the heavy volume of Canadian National (CN) freight trains, and CN's unwillingness to guarantee slots for Metra. I wouldn't be averse to taking the NCS to O'Hare, but I could only do it in good weather as I have mobility issues and can't make a mad dash from building to building if the weather's bad. If they hope to attract riders, they really need to build a sheltered pathway from the Metra station to the O'Hare Transfer Station, preferably with a moving sidewalk.
It’s also due to the line having a lot of single track sections that physically limits the capacity of the line. CN shows limited interest in changing this, so Metra can’t do anything besides run hardly any trains on it.
The new Amtrak connection to Union Station presents some exciting possibilities outside just airport connections. Alan Fisher made a great video where he talked about the possibility of electrifying Amtrak's Michigan services if they're able to be routed on the Metra Electric/South Shore Line tracks instead of the Norfolk Southern Chicago Line. Maybe I'm biased as someone who takes the Wolverine occasionally, but I think that'd be super rad.
I take the Wolverine/Blue Water monthly and I agree that it’s a line with a lot of potential. They should start with an early morning New Buffalo - Detroit run so that it becomes a viable option for Michigan residents who want to get to the Motor City by morning.
Sounds good to me
Wow, I thought the Blue Line was the only rail service to O'Hare. It's a shame the Metra one is so infrequent; I imagine it could be popular for airport travelers if it was at least hourly in each direction throughout the day. The current O'Hare Transfer station is far too basic, and doesn't look anything like what you'd expect from a normal airport station.
Given how minimalist the North Central Service is, I'm not surprised that I've never heard of it before. Also, in the footage of your train leaving the station, I noticed that the locomotive looked like an F59PHi.
It was an F59PHI!
Excellent, as usual!! I took the Metra O'Hare Transfer service to ORD once and it was so nice compared to riding the Blue Line, almost luxurious by comparison. After detraining, I found myself bewildered as to where the ATS station was, as there is no signage and no one to ask. So I just starting walking and eventually found it. Seniors get a 50% discount on Metra one-way tickets, but I believe this is only available when buying from an agent at the ticket window. If the City of Chicago and Metra implemented even half of your suggestions, it would be a miracle and a dramatic improvement!
I live along the LIRR, and while the LIRR doesn't have Gallery cars, my local branch DOES have bilevels (also diesel...tsk tsk) so whenever I see a double-decker car, I make sure to take advantage of it and always seat on top. It's instinct, y'know! Because no matter their age, they're still neat and not too common. And I love the green tint on the windows...it's the little things that count. Looks even better on a model Metra car!
14:01 Polish language cameo. It's nice how they thought about the Chicagoan Poles when making their signs.
There is another way to use metra to go from downtown to O'Hare.
UP-NW line stops at Jefferson Park. Which is a combination Metra/blue line station. Much busier line as well.
I flew into O’Hare for the first time and took the blue line earlier this year and definitely noticed what you bring up. I was also surprised by the Metra sorta-connection and I agree it’s got so much potential. Love those possible future plans, hadn’t heard of those!
If there’s any connection that would be easy to set up using what’s already available, it would be this one. Hope more people hear about these plans and get on board!
Metra really should provide hourly / twice hourly daily service between Union Station and ORD Transfer. Certainly passengers from the suburbs on the MD-W line (as well as people in the north suburbs that the NCS and Milwaukee District North Lines service) would prefer not having to go all the way into the city and backtrack on the Blue Line (the Milwaukee District West Line skirts the southern edge of ORD immediately east of Bensenville).
I'd like to see it extended south to Midway and the South Shore line as well. It would connect 4 airports (if you count South Bend and Gary) by rail. NW Indiana is growing quickly and adding a South Shore extension and double tracking.
A problem for passenger railroads is that nearly 90% of railroads across the USA are owned by freight. This means they have to share the track with freight which can cause delays and the freight railroad can limit the amount of train service the railroad can offer
I live in NJ and go to UIUC. An airport express train between Union and O'Hare would be nice and having trains from Champaign to O'Hare directly would be insane
The big problem is that Metra doesn’t own the tracks to O’hare. Canadian Pacific owns the tracks on the Milwaukee District West and Canadian National owns the North Central Service tracks. Add to the fact that Canadian National is notoriously difficult to deal with when it comes to hosting passenger trains on their tracks.
I have travelled to O'Hare by the Blue CTA line a couple of times and did not feel totally safe on a couple of occasions. Though my worst experience in Chicago was when I went through Midway.
The one thing that suprised me about Metra was the lack of trains on some routes. I had to go to McHenry and was a little shocked to see there were only three trains a day. I do love the double decker trains though, nothing like the trains we have in the UK.
Boston has to have one of the best city / airport transport transits that I have experienced, especially if you want to use Amtrak straight after a flight into Boston.
I live in the UK, not to far from Heathrow airport so I am quite fortunate. I can even take a local bus that goes from virtually outside my flat to the terminal coach park. With the Heathrow Express and the tube there are plenty of options for getting to and from LHR.
Looking forward to watching more of your videos.
Metra certainly has some low frequencies on some routes. It’s especially shocking when you come from other large urban areas in the world, like yourself.
I love the Boston T. You’re right, that airport connection is very convenient. The airport is also quite close to the city itself compared to most places.
THANK YOU for this information. I'll gladly take Metra to O'Hare. Blue line CTA is very convenient from Union Station, but not when you have to take luggage down stairs some 60' to one of the deepest subway stations (Clinton - first station as the train comes up from under the Chicago River, so it's deeper than most).
A bit of rail history-that CN route is the old Soo Line.
Yep! There’s a bridge in Rosemont that still says Soo Line on it!
As of 12/12/2022, Metra will be adding 14 more trains on the lines that depart Union Station to the north on weekdays. These new trains, though, are about providing hourly service at midday on the Milwaukee District lines and making the lines more friendly to reverse commuters. There are some service improvements to the North Central Service, but not much.
To summarize the changes:
Milwaukee District North Line: Seven additional roundtrips. These include two trains running the full route to Fox Lake, an additional short-turn train to Deerfield, and four short-turn trains to Grayslake.
Milwaukee District West Line: Six additional roundtrips. These include two new trains that short-turn at Franklin Park, and four additional trains running all the way to Big Timber Road (one of these trains inbound enters service at Elgin).
North Central Service: There will be an additional late morning train (train 114) departing Antioch at 9:10 AM and arriving at Union Station at 10:49 AM; as well as an early afternoon train (train 105) that leaves Union Station at 1:25 PM and arrives in Antioch at 3:05 PM. In addition, the two trains that short-turn at Buffalo Grove to provide very limited reverse commute service (trains 112 and 116 inbound, trains 101 and 107 outbound) will be extended to Antioch.
Happy to see the improvement! Thanks for the heads up
The last time I took the NCS from O'Hare towards Antioch back in September, I had to point out to two different people that there was no service heading towards downtown and that they would have to take the people-mover back to the Terminals in order to get on a Blue Line train. I'd take it more often to get to the airport, but the last train in the morning leaves at something like 7AM.
I could take Amtrak's Lincoln Service to Union Station and transfer to the Blue Line and go to the airport, but it's both slower and more expensive than taking a bus direct to ORD. They need higher frequency and express service for Amtrak to Union Station, then also express service for the Blue Line. It's frustrating cause the train system is just *almost* good enough.
I can really understand why Americans have bad opinions of public transit. I would love to take anti-transit people to Singapore or Japan (particularly Japanese suburbs) to just show how much better it could be.
I really like your point about it ALMOST being good enough. Chicago’s transit really isn’t bad, but there’s just enough areas that need improvement. And that leads people to avoid it, which means less funding…
I hope to take the Lincoln Service sometime soon!
Rosemont should be the real O'Hare transfer station. Forget all the rental car agencies and have the people mover swing over to Rosemont station first, and then continue on to rental cars. Rosemont has all the convention centers and hotels, so it makes more sense.
Even more wild, reroute the blue line behind the convention center, along the Des Plaines, (or over top of River Road) and then over top of Balmoral Ave. That would add a perfect transfer point to the metra station. Blue line passengers could also transfer to the people mover, then the blue line could continue along Balmoral and rejoin its existing alignment inside the Kennedy median. Blue line passengers get a faster connection to Terminal 5, Metra passengers get a better connection to the whole airport. You could also choose to ride the blue line express to Rosemont over using the people mover, if you're at Terminal 2.
North Central used to have more frequent service. Aside from additional service, what would improve it is if they ended it somewhere along I-94 instead of Antioch. Then you'd get a bunch of people from Wisconsin to pull off the freeway and use it to go both to the airport and downtown.
I have used that line many times when I visited family that lived in Chicago before heading out by plane at O’Hare. It’s handy, if a bit inconvenient. It’s handy for going from the suburbs to O’Hare.
I think an alternative would be to construct a new train terminal next to the Milwaukee District west. Not only will it relieve congestion from the Blue line and remove difficulties from the NCS line but it would also allow Milwaukee District west trains to have access to O'hare Airport, Amtrak trains would also get access to O'hare, and Electrification more easily be implemented since you don't have to deal with Canadian National and an airport express can easily be implemented and access to the terminals via O'hare ATS.
Took the Metra after flying from the UK as we were then travelling on Amtrak down to St Louis. It was a great service and with our luggage so much more convenient than the blue line. Love the idea of the Amtrak trains starting from the airport, but then would not have been able to see the splendour of Union Station. Seem to remember there was a bus shuttle from the terminal building. We stayed at a hotel nearby and got their shuttle driver to drop us at the station in the morning. Great video, keep up the good work.
Hey leave our love affair with the EMds alone, nothing like hearing that engine at notch 8 roaring through the area. I live near the MDW line and love hearing them! Also helps that I worked for the railway for awhile so I might be biased 😭😭
Great idea. A couple of weeks ago I had to fly into O'Hare rather than Midway because of the Southwest Airline mess and our change of an airline into O'Hare. We took the CTA Blue line into the Loop. Having been used to the 20-25 minute CTA Orange Line into the Loop, I was disappointed at the extra time it took the Blue Line to make the same trip. Granted, the distance is longer. But one would think the CTA could offer some sort of express service between O'Hare and the Chicago Loop. If the CTA won't offer any Blue Line Express service to O'Hare, this Metra link would be a great alternative. That is if Metra can speed up and offer more of the service and make the connection from the O'Hare Transfer Station to the O'Hare Airport Tramway easier (and undercover).
every city should try show its best impression by rail from and to an airport and Chicago is supposed to be a world class city. it should have multiple good services and at least one of the best services to and from its airport
I remember when I was 18 (34 now) I could train from O'Hare north I'm the middle of the day
Whenever I travel from or to Chicago on a weekday, I always try to use Metra when I can but the schedule isn't very convenient. Thanks for making the video!
The schedule definitely makes it hard! I’ve run into that myself a few times
Thanks for the great video!
Great and informative video! I’m looking forward to seeing more.
Thank you!
I know it’s not an exact transfer, but i consider this pretty close : I live off the northwest line in Woodstock. When I take the train to get to O’Hare I take the Metra from Woodstock to another station that will provide local stops to Jefferson Park. When at Jefferson Park I transfer to the CTA blue line and I’m only about 10 minutes away from being dropped off right inside the airport. It’s not ideal, but I schedule my entire flight times around making it to trains that can get me to and from my home in the suburbs so I can make it off the plane and to the station, or off the station and to my gate in a reasonable amount of time. It seems to work well for me, but agreed there could be better options here!
Love your ideas for a new airport train. Glad I stumbled upon your channel. I look forward to enjoying more of your content.👍
Glad you found the channel too!
Nice video. What you're suggesting is essentially the same thing as the UP Express at YYZ in Toronto. I completely agree with you that Chicago definitely needs a train like that. ... And, on an entirely unrelated note, the track division you refer to is named after a Wisconsin town pronounced WALK-uh-shaw.
Solid that youtube recognizes that trains traveling as music and the wind as appluse; great video, thanks for sharing
Enjoyed your video. Nice use of titles at 3:19. A couple of notes:
- Union Station was designed for an office tower that was never built.
- 6:25 Those are lights (not working, it seems!)
- Politics: there's constant tension between the city-run CTA and the suburban-focused Metra. CTA (through the mayor, no matter who it is at the time) fiercely protects it's "turf". And Chicago owns O'Hare, so has no incentive to support a Metra-to-O'Hare train that would compete with the Blue Line. When you do your video on the Metra Electric South Chicago branch you'll find a similar anti-Metra situation vis-a-vis the city and the CTA.
And so it goes.
Thanks for the insights! I have a question: doesn’t the state of Illinois own both the CTA and Metra?
@@Thom-TRA "Independent" authorities. Created by state legislation.
A few years ago I took a week to ride every metra train to every metra station and then did it again with all the L trains
I didnt know there was a High Speed Rail Alliance. Thanks for the info and as always, trains are awesome
Thank you!
The one thing about the North Central Service is that there really isn’t a ton of ridership on this line. The Heritage Corridor, North Central Service, and Southwest Service are the lines with the least amount of riders. Another thing is that the line only operates on weekdays only. You’d have to find a way to get weekend service on the line. Of course you would need more service for getting to and from the airport
Back in the day--i.e., the mid 1960's--there were cool dark green Flxible buses from all major downtown hotels to O'Hare, and the cost was just $2 each way, if I remember correctly. Of course, there were no stops along the way. O'Hare was a lot simpler then.
Schipol Airport to the center of Amsterdam shows how to combine an airport with rail. It is fast, though train I got was not express. I had forgotten about the Block 37 station below state street. Completed, with platforms, for trains to the airport that never materialized. Improving what we have is ok for now. Sidings with connecting atrium for express trains at O’Hare Transfer is a great idea.
I've used the NCS a few times, usually to get from work in the loop to the airport for a 6pm flight. Paired with TSA PreCheck, I could get on the 4:25 PM train, be at O'Hare by 5PM and still make my 6pm flight. Trying to do that on the blue is feasible but always stress inducing. If Metra was able to get new trains and nonstop rush services there would almost be no need for a new built line.
Also should note the express trains they wanted to build/run would have cost $20/25 One Way. So $6.25 is a steal not to mention it's cleaner, safer, and less stressful than the CTA. On the subject of electrification, I don't think Metra has a love affair with diesel engines vs. the cost of electrifying all of their tracks.
@@flyguyrainier Metra doesn’t have a love affair with diesel engines in general, but it’s a running joke within the transit community that they have a love affair with EMD engines. EMD doesn’t build passenger locomotives anymore, so instead of purchasing modern efficient new diesel locomotives, they continue to purchase old second-hand locomotives or even old freight locomotives. There will come a day when the engineers can’t refuse to learn a new technology anymore, but they’re pushing that day as far as they can.
@Trains Are Awesome well that day isn't now since there are risks of potential railroad worker strikes and switching to a prime mover at such a time would be suicide.
@@maas1208 There’s been a strike looming for a long time. Show me the relationship between looming strikes and switching from a fossil fuel to a renewable source of energy that also makes operations more efficient.
@Trains Are Awesome I meant the Switch from EMD prime movers to something like the Cummings prime movers
As it happened, on a trip when I flew into Chicago early in the morning back in 2018, I took advantage of this connection. It's no UP Express, but being able to catch the train pretty conveniently made for a much faster ride downtown.
That’s lucky you were able to make it on time for a NCS train!
Thank you, Thom for this excellent, informative, and easy to understand video. I am Ron, born and raised in Chicagoland, now living in San Francisco, California. But I left my heart in Chicago-I love Chicago and am surprised and a bit saddened to know that there is not a better transit alternative to O'Hare from the Loop and western suburbs. ,A few years ago, I took BART from downtown San Francisco to San Francisco International Airport. I was very impressed and quite pleased by the excellent service provided by BART and the SFO shuttle, a driverless, electric tram that made frequent stops at all the terminals. The overall service was inexpensive, fast and efficient. I am a disabled senior and had no problem getting a seat on the BART trains to and from the airport. I eagerly look forward to more Trains Are Awesome videos about the Metra and CTA. It is my hope that you, Lindsey, and Baer travel to San Francisco and check out BART, the Muni Metro, and the new Transbay Terminal. Grüß Gott...I mean Goede dag.
Hope you get a chance to come back to Chicago soon!
Going to the Bay Area and riding all the public transportation there is the solid #1 on my American travel bucket list. There is just so much I want to explore there!
Thanks for the comment!
Metra should seriously look at electrifying the North Central Service, UP North Line and Rock Island District. They should also look at getting trains like the Stadler Kiss or Flirt.
Rock Island, Southwest Service, and the Milwaukee lines shouldn’t be that hard since Metra already owns those lines. UP might be more difficult since UP runs freight trains over those.
@Trains Are Awesome The UP-N line only gets freight traffic after Lake Bluff, so to me, the best option would be Dual mode locomotives.
@@maas1208 well… freight trains can run under catenary as long as there’s no double stacks or auto racks. Freight trains run on parts of the northeast corridor, and so depending on the train, it could operate under catenary.
The things that look like air vents are lights, but I've rarely seen them work. It's a surprise when they do turn on lol
Your channel is awesome. Nice hot dog shirt, by the way.
O'Hare had plans for a rail station, part of Western terminal, using the Milwaukee District West Line as part of the modernization plan. Maybe now that Ohare21 terminal 2 was approved and can move into construction, they will work on getting the rail connection planned.
They had plans? I have never heard this
good video!
Thanks!
I like this plan however I would like to see a stop in the suburbs most likely Franklin Park instead of the train going straight to Western. Franklin Park then allows people to easily transfer to anywhere along Milwaukee-West (Yes I know there are two Franklin Park stations but it's a short walk). I think eliminating those potential car trips is valuable even if it adds a few minutes to the travel time to downtown.
Hope you do more Metra rides soon
Most North Central Service trains leaving Union Station are leaving from 3-7 pm. I’ve used the North Central Service when I took an international evening flight. Basically couldn’t take it any other time.
A good video, highlighting the problems of the Metra train service. I have used the Transfer a couple of times when I used two Rosemont hotels and the station was comfortably walkable. However, as mentioned, the frequency is very poor and useless unless your flights/travel plans coincide with the morning and evening peaks. The Metra ride quality is superior to the subway which is not only loud and crowded, but the poor track and "flats" on some wheels make for a very uncomfortable and banging ride.
Never realized just how bad the Blue Line from ORD was until I went to Amsterdam. It’s just light years ahead of where Chicago is in terms of service, speed, and reliability.
Thanks!
Thanks for your generosity!
Metra definitely have the bones for a good service; But the investment must be there to make a different! I like recommendation of having a dedicated station and to provide a direct connection to the airport shuttle.
Investment is everything!
solid content.
Thanks!
Well, this could happen, but DMUs or battery EMUs would probably be used since Canadian National is openly hostile to electrification on the NCS line, Maybe purchasing some UP express DMUs and converting them to Battery Electric with a Pantagraph and Third rail shoes, and why just stop at an O'Hare express when you can also do a Midway express via a connector tracks between the Metra Heritage Corridor line and the CTA orange line.
Whoa! Just stumbled on this video. I used to live within walking distance from Prairie View station on the NCS line. I did use the Ohare transfer station a few times when the train schedule works for my flight. They used to have more trains, including an express to Ohare once a day from the city, but cut service in 2018 I think. It's always been inconvenient since NCS is mainly a commuter line into the city but an intriguing option for north suburbanites to save money on ubers or parking.
One problem trying to enhance service to Ohare Transfer is that Union Station doesn't have a CTA station. You have to walk a few blocks to get to one and if you have luggage and it's winter time, that just isn't worth it.
Unfortunately they are also adding lanes to the Tri-State tollway. Planners should be running an outer commuter rail loop that might connect perhaps Evanston with O'hare, LaGrange, Midway airport and into the city.
A new stop in Des Plaines at Oakton st is rumored. Weekend service would be a nice addition. Also, Pace bus stops at O’Hare Multi-Modal Facility (MMF)
Very nice video. Likes
Thanks
I live in Antioch and its always so disappointing that the NCS is so barren, just a weeks ago the service had nothing in the afternoon until now where they have.. one train that leaves Antioch at 3pm, not to mention no weekends trains. its very disappointing since it'd be so convenient to go to Rosemont or O'Hare with it if its schedule was actually really good
I live in downtown Chicago and found myself liking Midway more than O'hare because of the 20 min less train ride and the frequently delayed/ghosted Blue line to O'Hare. If there's an express train from Union station to O'hare I will definitely want to use O'hare more.
I flew out of Midway for the first time last week and I gotta say it was a very pleasant experience
As a fellow Chicagoan, I have to admit that I especially enjoy your Chicago vlogs. This was particularly interesting as I remember several years ago when the direct high-speed train from downtown to O’Hare was proposed. I sincerely hope that happens soon as there need to be more options for getting to and from O’Hare. Trains are Awesome and thank you for this interesting but impractical way to get to O’Hare. I like your suggestions for improvement!!!
I’m glad you enjoyed the video! I take the blue line to Rosemont every day so I’ve had quite some time to think this all through 😂
Will you be taking any of the holiday trains? I’ve already been on the CTA one yesterday!
@@Thom-TRA I’ve been on the holiday train many times and am looking forward to going on the Brown line holiday train this weekend. It’s the absolute BEST thing the CTA does!!!😀🤣😀
@@ck4426 I’m excited for the brown line! Still figuring out where to film it
@@Thom-TRA did you see the Canadian Pacific Holiday train will be in Bensenville on Friday 12/2?
@@ck4426 yes! Already have plans to see it
Done this connection many times but only when a Metra train happens to be coming. I really hate rush hour only commuter rail. Almost pointless.
It is pointless. Like, how is a line supposed to attract anyone outside of the commuters that already ride it?
@@Thom-TRA This was a cut back from the original timetable, which had more counter rush hour service.
Toronto's Union Pearson (UP) airport express train will get you to downtown Toronto in 25 minutes. Our senior fare back in 2017 was under $7.00 CD. From Union Station there are many transportation options. It was a five minute walk to our hotel.
I’m proposing a similar service here!
@@Thom-TRA I grew up on the south side of Chicago in the 50's and 60's and used to take the IC electric train (now Metra) from the 93rd Street terminal in South Chicago into the Randolph Street station downtown just to walk around.
I enjoy your videos.
Amtrak could connect Chicago Union, ORD, MKE, and Milwaukee Intermodal on existing tracks by constructing a single turning track in Des Plaines. Will something so sensible ever happen? Of course not.
I will look up the Block 37 project About 10-15 years ago the Block 37 project was supposed to speed up CTA trains on the Blue Line to run express from the Loop to O'Hare. It was supposed to add in express tracks there. A transfer connection on Washington station at the for the Red and blue lines was closed during this project and is still closed today. Though the only connection I guess to the Blue Line is through the Lake/State Station via the Chicago Pedway. Anyway the city leaders shelf that plan because the expense of constructing that. Although Chicago has good connections from both its airports from the L and and a connection on METRA to the airport. I think it would be possible and very feasible for METRA to build a shuttle service to the airport using its North Central Service tracks. But we'll see if they do that one of these days
Clearly METRA should hire you as a consultant.
Thom, a few weeks ago I had the pleasure of traveling on the NCS services from Chicago Union Station to Rosemont, the last stop prior to O’Hare transfer. It was a smooth connection from Amtrak to Metra and I purchased a ticket using my credit card through the ticketing machines. The train ride was quick and when I got to Rosemont Metra station I had an issue with the Rideshare service as he almost went to the CTA station instead of the Metra station. I was able to get to my hotel alright.
You video on the NCS service was a help even though I did not go all the way to O’Hare Transfer.
I’m glad it was helpful! And that’s too bad the rideshare got it confused. Pretty ridiculous to have two different stations so close to each other with the same name, even if they are on different systems.
@@Thom-TRA Thom, the stations were about a half mile apart and still the Rideshare app choose the CTA stop! Anyway, I think you suggestions make sense and if Metra can make the NCS line an all day service, it could be the start of something interesting
The “Northern Suburbs” is a lot more than just Antioch. Metra cannot continue into Wisconsin without Wisconsin or federal funding, but there is a huge untapped market here. Unfortunately the train service heading north is even more abysmal than that heading into the city. Service that would extend to Waukesha for example would open up a huge Milwaukee and Madison market. A 90s proposal tried to get that service to Burlington, but it was a different line (that did not pass through oHare) and it stopped far too short of Waukesha to be useful. Today, bus service is the best way to get from Wisconsin to o’Hare, unfortunately.
Milwaukee’s airport is served by the Amtrak Hiawatha. It is one of three US airports that have Amtrak terminals on their property. Of course it’s on the wrong side of the property and requires a free shuttle bus to get to the terminals. Milwakee has also been under attack from o’Hare for long enough it lacks the flights today to be as competitive as it once was. Airline consolidation to just four major carriers has really been the biggest obstacle. Once Southwest got into o’Hare they pulled a lot of service from Milwaukee.
A mentor I had in the 1990s talked about the “failure” of the railroads - it was a real thing then. They saw themselves as railroads, and not part of a bigger logistics operation. Rail’s resurgence owes a lot to the advent of intermodal.
The Hiawatha to MKE isn’t cheap. And MKE needs to fix it’s transfer as well - but it is on property. Consider coming north next time you fly, especially Delta, and see how it works.
I agree with your assessment of Frankfurt. I recently stayed at the FRA Hilton above the train station, connected to the airport. I did have to take a shuttle bus, but I believe there are other options. The ICE system brings everyone right to the airport with a tremendous shopping area, co-working space, and easy connections to basically anywhere in Europe.
Definitely agree that it should be from Union Station vs. Ogilvie because otherwise, people will for sure forget what station they arrived to & show up at Union only to find out it's the wrong station. Now that's not a massive problem if they get the frequencies up to what is proposed but still annoying all the same, especially for someone who has gotten dropped off for one reason or another.
Great video It’s still better than Teesside Airport in NE England where there used to be just 2 trains a week! Then reduced to 1. Week! and now it’s closed due to poor platform structure. Given how few flights leave from the airport and how far the walk is to the replacement terminal it never really stood a chance.
Ah, is that one of the parliamentary trains?
@@Thom-TRA Yes it was although the trains still pass straight through. They seem to be cutting down the number of these type of stations by coming up with ways to have no services calling at them yet not going through the closure process. Another example of them removing the whole service, in London the West Ealing to West Ruislip service became a one a week bus this week. It’s even more pointless than the once a week train was.
Chicago is the city that works for itself
AN OLD BENCH THATS SO COOL OVER HERE BY ELBURN WE ONLY HAVE NEW BENCHES
They also tried making the "Metra Star Line" back in 2000 and it would of stared in Joliet, make its way north west, then head toward ohare on existing rail but they weren't going to eat a couple billion dollars to build it.... It's easy to Google search and find info
If the star line was actually built I’d be using it every day and it would make my commute so much better.
Nice
An express train from the Loop to O'Hare is a great idea and you did a great job explaining the current state of affairs in getting to O'Hare. Nice viceo!
A technicality but, it's a little misleading in the intro to say that the L system connects Chicago's west and northwestern "suburbs" to O'Hare. The L connects the western and northwestern Chicago neighborhoods to O'Hare along with a few very small suburbs directly adjacent to Chicago at Rosemont, Forest Park, and Oak Park, with the furthest station, Forest Park, being 2 miles from the Chicago city limits and the Rosemont station mere feet from the city limits. For practical purposes, the western and northwestern suburbs are not connected to O'Hare by the L.
The major problem with Metra commuter rail is that its biggest rail termini, Union Station and Ogilvie Station, are outside of the Loop and lack any direct connection to the L system, being 800 - 1000' from the nearest L entrance, making the bus the quickest way into the Loop or walking about 1/3 mile to the Loop; with luggage, that's a pain. The other problem is that the O'Hare Transfer Station is almost 3 miles from the main domestic airport terminals. Higher frequencies and speed won't surmount that challenge.
Without a station inside the airport and one inside the Loop, the added time to get to Union Station and the added time to get to O'Hare absolutely negates any time savings and makes the Metra option take longer, even with a 25 min ride. 10-15 minutes to get to Union Station and 10-15 minutes to get to O'Hare from the O'Hare Transfer Station dragging luggage with you makes the Metra option less than ideal. Comfort would be the only selling point since it would take more time than the L (even with fast speeds) and not as convenient to get to/from Metra. Would that alone be worth the expense for both riders and for Metra?
A number of years ago, there was an attempt to build an O'Hare Express train using the Blue Line tracks and construction began on the downtown station for the express service. However, the train was unpopular and the people of Chicago were adamantly against using public city money to build this and the project died leaving the empty shell of the downtown station under Block 37 in the Loop.
Any airport express train would require terminals in the Loop and inside O'Hare to really be viable and competitive with the L and with Uber. Uber is the real competitive threat as the cost of Uber to the Loop wouldn't be much more expensive than the Airport Express train. Privacy and a drop off at your hotel certainly have value.
Also, such a train would not serve O'Hare's suburban patrons at all. It would cost a lot of money but, being able to direct trains from the Milwaukee District West line and UP Northwest line (Metra's 2nd busiest) onto the North Central Line tracks, along with a deviation for some trains from the UP West line and BNSF line (Metra's busiest) to service O'Hare would open up many many options, especially since ridership into the Loop is still about 25% below pre-pandemic levels so trains would be available to service O'Hare and open up a new travel market. It could even serve to combine routes from UP-W and BNSF trains to serve the UP-NW segment north of O'Hare to service the job rich Schaumburg corridor. The challenges would be immense but, if we're thinking big, it's worth considering. After all, as the famous Chicago architect Daniel Burnham once said, "make no small plans for they have no magic to stir men's blood and thus probably will not be realized."
I’m glad you enjoyed the video.
“Misleading” is quite a strong word and accusation. The neighborhoods on the extremities of the Blue Line are still in the city limits but they are very suburban in nature. And don’t forget, a very large share of blue line riders take a Pace bus or drive from the western and northwestern suburbs to the blue line. Have you ever seen the large crowds of people at Rosemont? I don’t think I was misleading at all.
If you look at large cities globally, premium airport trains to large railroad terminals are very popular. The Narita Express in Tokyo, the Heathrow Express in London, or the Malpensa Express in Milan don’t serve the most convenient stations ever (remember also that not everyone in Chicago needs to go into the loop. This line could be convenient for Amtrak Midwest passengers laying over at Union). But these trains are very popular. Why? They’re easy to understand.
Many people look up “train O’Hare Chicago.” If there is an easy option available (easier than finding the right station on the Blue Line) then people will choose it for the peace of mind. Mental convenience is a real thing. It’s a concept that works in many cities around the world, and these cities all have a more local option for other trips.
Also, have you paid for an Uber recently? A trip I took from Lincoln Park to Logan Square recently was $20. It’s no serious competitor to a $10 comfortable train with lots of luggage space. I would totally choose a relaxing experience that takes 10 minutes longer over the Blue Line. And I take the blue line every day.
@@Thom-TRA I'm sorry you took offense to "a little misleading". That wasn't my intent. I merely wanted to point out that someone not familiar with Chicago might get the impression that the L serves the suburbs w service to O'Hare. I know a lot of suburban people come into the city and get on the Blue Line at Rosemont but, that is different than the Blue Line going out into the suburbs.
I took an Uber from O'Hare into the city recently and the Uber pickup station was swamped. The ride to Lake View was $60. Business people on expense accounts will not think twice about spending money on Uber. Time saved is what will make the difference for those customers. 30 minutes from the O'Hare terminal on a comfortable train like Metra versus an hour or more in an Uber in traffic would be a competitive advantage.
You have a lot of good points to make for how Metra could serve O'Hare and I like how you did it. You were very thorough. Indeed, an express service to O'Hare might be successful. My main concern is that any express train to O'Hare must go into the terminal to be viable. Airport trains in London, Paris, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Singapore, etc all go into the terminal. At the other end, Union Station, unlike Paddington in London, Gare du Nord in Paris, or Tokyo Central, is poorly served with rapid transit connections to the L system and the rest of the city. A transformative solution for express transit to O'Hare will be needed.
If the Blue Line extension beyond O'Hare under the airport to Schaumburg ever happens, then perhaps building a tunnel connection from Metra's NCS line to the terminal could happen which would continue to the west side of O'Hare to offer connections to Metra's MD-W and UP-NW lines. That could allow suburban Metra trains to service O'Hare and use the NCS tracks on their way downtown. I didn't mean to take away anything from your excellent video. I love your enthusiasm and vision.
@@bryanCJC2105 thanks for the comment. I really appreciate how you write: it’s respectful, thorough, and I learned a thing or two.
I wish they’d extend the Blue Line. I work right on the other side of O’Hare. Taking a bus from Rosemont all the way around is such a time consuming pain.
And you’re totally right about Union Station and it having poor transit connections. I think it’s strange that in Chicago, there’s no transfers between rapid transit and mainline rail. Like, Clinton Green/Pink should be called Ogilvie, and Clinton Blue should have a connection to Union. Also, it would be the easiest thing in the world to build a corridor between LaSalle/VanBuren and the LaSalle Metra station. It’s frustrating to me that transfers are nothing more than an announcement over the PA.
Hope you have a good night!
The Green Libe stop at Clinton is about a 2-3 min walk to Ogilvy Station if you could do the connection to the airport that way
@@Thom-TRA I think there used to be a underground passage to the CTA at Union Station. Closed due to security.
I would like to see a TGV or Mag-lev train connnecting Chicago, Milwaukee, Gary, and South Bend and the major airports associated with those cities. Since I'm 68 years old I likely won't live long enough.
I always thought a good addition would be to connect all the area airports on a belt route. South Bend to Gary International Airport via South Shore tracks, to Midway to O'Hare then on to whatever else on the north side of the city. Efficient connections with other Metra, SSL, CTA and Amtrak lines could make it very useful.
That certainly is a good proposal! It would connect a lot of underserved areas along the way
@@Thom-TRA I think there are freight rights of way from Hegewisch up to Midway and beyond. However, getting it built would be a major undertaking. It would be nice though....
I would love a dedicated airport service. I don't live in Chicago, but I'm close enough that I do fly from O'Hare often enough. It is always then a decision to drive and pay to park or to take Amtrak and the Blue line. I don't always mind the L, but I do feel bad lugging suitcases around especially during busy times on the system. Also not that convenient to take that luggage from Union Station to the nearest Blue line stop a couple of blocks away. I do wish O'Hare could have Schiphol like connections, that was always so easy, go downstairs then get on nearly any train headed in the correct direction if you were going through Amsterdam Centraal, or maybe even get right on a train to your destination at the airport. I'd also be in favor of extending the Amtrak routes, although as you point out, Union Station isn't built to accommodate that traffic.
The L really isn’t built for people with suitcases. Neither are the buses here, it’s so hard for me to come back from a weekend in Michigan with a suitcase and take the bus home.
I lived in Leiden, which is actually even closer to Schiphol by train than Amsterdam Centraal is! Used that connection many, many times.
@@Thom-TRA How funny, a good chunk of ORD (when annexed by the City of Chicago) was fashioned out of en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyden_Township,_Cook_County,_Illinois and is surrounded to the south and East by it!
People who live downtown are not the target demographic for this route, Thom. The people from Antioch, Round Lake Beach, Vernon Hills, wheeling, etc…people from the Northern Suburbs…that is who takes this train to O’Hare.
You said it yourself, the blue line runs right to the airport, no one who lives downtown would choose this trip over that, and they aren’t meant to.
You must be able to fit into some really small spaces with a mind that narrow
Kinda funny that Chicago has "rapid" transit to both of its airports, BUT only one of its four major downtown railroad stations are connected to said system
Dedicated airport express trains are usually very pricey and in my view a misuse of resources to build them.They are generally aiming at a captive tourist market as local people would know that local trains to/from the airport are cheaper if slower.
This would require very little construction. Airport Express trains are very popular and make transit systems easier to understand. If visitors have a pleasant first experience with transit they’ll be more likely to use transit more.
The High Speed Rail Alliance is a great advocacy group for transit projects in the US and the midwest in particular! I've been a member for over 5 years and they hold monthly seminars on rail projects from around the world. They post their previous seminars on UA-cam, @HighSpeedRailAlliance. Becoming a member/donating is as low as $10/year, I believe. Another great video! Love your Chicago content.
Looking at the route, I think it could be a great new L route, filling in a major gap in northwest Chicago between the Lake St. green line and the O'Hare branch blue line. Being a modern-built line, it could play the route more quickly than the blue line. Mid you, with good upgrades, the blue line could probably be faster than it is. The line is great for getting to the airport in part because it also serves more areas than Downtown, so people can bus to a station and go. But that gets into an observation I've had about Chicago in general (which could also be applied to the USA overall): there is so much potential if the country would invest in itself.
Take Union station and Oglvie. It's so painfully obvious that they should be joined as one station. The undergrounds parts should be totally rebuilt to modern standards, approaches should be tunneled and also electrified, and Union should be a through station. I'd also like to see all the Metra lines call at a single station instead of being spread over four stations. That kind of tight integration would be fantastic, especially with high speed service spreading out over the Midwest. I do like the idea of a purpose built station at O'Hare. I think it may be fine if it just connects to the people mover, but it should be a very direct, enclosed, well-lit, climate controlled, and physically easy transfer to make that also gives discounts for group travel. Transport for groups or families gets very expensive on public transport which can cause many to understandably opt for driving or even getting a taxi or van instead.
The US could do these things, and I wish they would. Imagine what a real investment in the Chicagoland transport system could yield if they'd dream big and fund it. This country used to do that once upon a time when it was smaller and poorer.
I love your vision!
What you are proposing is something similar to the EWR-NYC connection via NJ Transit. But good luck getting the freight railroads to electrify the route. You also have Amtrak services stopping in EWR at times, and those trains can hit 125 mph.
I think the state of Illinois should buy two of the tracks and electrify those. It’s a method that works in other states.
@Trains Are Awesome Unless we get a pro Transit politician that is mostly not going to happen anytime soon.
@@maas1208 I’m not saying what will happen, I’m saying what should.
@@Thom-TRA I tend to agree
At one time, it was Metra to O'Hare Transfer, to bus, then to A.T.S.!
I previously lived in Chicago for many years and do not know anyone that used this service-maybe the intermodal station recently completed could change this. Most other Metra lines run alot more frequently...is there a reason why they are only running 6 trains a day- there are a ton of freight tracks in the area between Union Station and Ohare(especially around O'Hare) maybe this has something to do with the infrequent service?
All these years later I'm still trying to figure out why do some Metra cars have green-tinted windows. I've always found that odd for some reason.
Something with sunlight or something. Idk I think it’s weird too.
Thanks for another fine video. The 3rd track through O'Hare Transfer was a quid pro quo demanded by the freight host. The freight host is not eager for more Metra frequency, as it would potentially interfere with freight services.
I was also disappointed by the connection between Metra and the ATS.
I grew up not far from the Metra station just north of the O'Hare Transfer station, and my family just sold the house a year ago. Until then, I occasionally rode between Prospect Heights and O'Hare. That, from my perspective, is the most appropriate market.
Service between O'Hare and Union Station is problematic for all of the reasons that you point out. An issue that you don't highlight is that the prime competitor, the Blue Line, offers a wider range of (at least traditionally) more convenient destinations at the other end.
The blue line may offer more destinations, but I don’t think it’s a great way of getting there. It’s slow, loud, and dirty. But mostly, it’s capacity-bound. L trains are obviously very small, and even with high frequencies it becomes packed with tourists and commuters. I for one find it very annoying that I can’t find a seat when I take it home every day because the first 4 cars are filled with suitcases.
If you look at London Heathrow, there’s underground and Elizabeth line services to various destinations, and there’s also a separate Heathrow Express which just serves one downtown terminal. All services are heavily used.
What shall we say about freight railroads and their hostility to passenger trains? Hopefully the resolution in the Gulf Coast will embolden governments to expand passenger service.
@@Thom-TRA I defer to your assessment on crowding at rushhour; I have seldom been on the O'Hare train during rush hour.
The last time capacity on the North Central line was negotiated was as I recall pre-EJE merger, and since then local freight destinations along the line (like M&M/Mars) have announced closures. Still, to greatly increase passenger traffic a fourth track would have to be added along the ex-Soo portion. There's a fourth track that from google earth appears minimally used, and what looks like space for an additional track. (Other rail fans have argued that the host railroad got better treatment than it deserved during the triple track deal, but since it's their track, they have a lot of leverage).
As you note, speeds out of the north end of Unison stations are pretty low. The Union Station master plan calls for a fourth track running north, but that won't address the grade crossings directly west of Union Station. There's also a long-term plan to grade-separate the crossing of UP W with MD N and W, and North Central, but that project didn't even make it into CREATE. A North Central solution to the problem will be expensive, and you'll still be stuck with the transfer to ATS.
@@johnkolassa1645 transfer to the ATS really shouldn’t be an issue at all. A new service would probably attract a large number of international travelers. Many of these come through Terminal 5, which necessitates a ride on the ATS anyways. Might as well send those people to a less crowded transfer facility than to an already crowded airport terminal.
@@Thom-TRA You're right. Transfer to ATS shouldn't be an issue. At least we're in better shape than pre-ATS reopening. And Terminal 5 is poorly connected. Again, thanks for the video.
Thank you for a great video ! I have used the North Central service but before Covid. I agree with all that you say, and wonder if a short term solution for s more frequent service might be the use of dedicated train sets like Brightline are going to use in Florida between Orlando and Fort Lauderdale ? Electrification could come later ! I look forward to your next trip.
I like the idea of dedicated diesel trainsets. But alas, EMD doesn’t build any trainsets 😂
@@Thom-TRA Perhaps Metra could be pursuaded to buy some Venture cars from Siemens in California, and use their forthcoming reconfigured SD70 EMD diesels which are now on test ?
@@Thom-TRA Well, this could happen, but DMUs or battery EMUs would probably be used since Canadian National is openly hostile to electrification on the NCS line, Maybe purchasing some UP express DMUs and converting them to Battery Electric with a Pantagraph and Third rail shoes, and why just stop at an O'Hare express when you can also do a Midway express via a connector tracks between the Metra Heritage Corridor line and the CTA orange line.
I've long thought that the Amtrak Michigan and Illinois services should continue through Union Station to a convenient connection at O'Hare, with codeshares with either United or American including through ticketing and through baggage checking from, e.g., Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, Lansing, Battle Creek, Jackson, Ann Arbor, Bloomington, Springfield, and Champaign. This would make Amtrak part of the global transportation network, and not just a standalone U.S. transportation option.
The feeder service would be awesome. It’s kind of like what DB does in Germany, or Thalys between the Netherlands and France.
Using Metra for airport service is nice in theory but not logically. Vast majority people who use Metra have vehicles and live in the suburbs and only use Metra going to Chicago for work. So most people in the suburbs drive to the airport. This is something Metra can not afford.
Mayor Daley wanted a high speed train from downtown Chicago to O'Hare and another to Midway, the station in downtown Chicago actually exists which is underneath block 37.
Now the trains being coming in and out of Chicago is because of switching. If you ever notice they all merge into 3 or 4 tracks right out of Ogilvie and Union Station. Think of all the trains entering and departing into 3 or 4 tracks into either of these stations, it's crazy. So they go slow as not to create an accident.
Now to your idea of going electric, I personally like the idea. My favorite train company was the Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee Railroad (aka North Shore Line.) They had trains running at 80-90 MPH until they stopped being in service in 1963. But here is why it probably won't work, it would be expensive with all the overhead wiring and Metra, not the freight companies would have to maintain it, which would mean repair crews repairing the wires, and closing down freight tracks. It's just super expensive. Metra can't even afford to buy brand new engines, so making all the tracks electric, closing tracks for maintenance is not something they would be in favor of.
I think the flawed logic is assuming that because Metra currently primarily fulfills one function, it is doomed to only ever be used for that function. If you look at the Metra Electric Line, it serves a lot of intra-city passengers. There’s no reason why the right train on a different line shouldn’t do the same thing. I know a lot of people that take the UPN line to get from the city to Northwestern.
This video really isn’t about suburban travelers. I don’t think I ever even explicitly mentioned that it needs to be Metra who runs this service. I’m just pointing out that Chicago has all the infrastructure in place that for a minimal investment, there could be a new train service. One that has proven wildly successful in other places around the world.
Also, Metra’s tendency to buy second hand locomotives has nothing to do with them not being able to afford new stuff. Engineers at Metra just don’t like working with locomotives that aren’t EMD.
Wow, the North Central Service is limited just the VRE in Washington, DC.
If the timing is right this is my preferred method of getting to and from O’Hare.
If the TJ
I got NS right…