Good job JB. Back in 1988 when I was stationed on Okinawa as a US Marine, I bought a Commodore to pass the time. I managed to get quite a collection of them because all the Marine that were going back home gave me their commodores and manuals. I still have my collection in the closet, together with my Apple IIE from 1984.
Sometime since this video came out I picked up a C16. This morning I finally broke out the desoldering iron and socketed everything, installed new ram and a new pair of LS257s and the connectors to give me 64k! Thanks for the great video!
I got a Commodore 16 for Christmas in 1984. I still love this machine, the colour pallete and Basic was far better than the Commodore 64. It also had a built in reset and you could access the machine code monitor easily just by holding down the Commodore key and reset. Still looks cool. Coders like Udo Gertz produced games that were amazing feats of programming for the 264 series machines.
It had some very nice features and was a nice machine. It's too bad they removed hardware sprites and a chip that can compete with the infamous SID. This computer was originally supposed to sell for around $50 too! Still, I've seen some demos done for it that are really impressive.
I am now inspired to mod my C16! I've been wanting to do this for a while, and after seeing how easy it is thanks to your video, there's really no excuse now. Okay, one excuse, I have to get the new RAM chips first. D'oh!
Yup. Desolder chips are not the easiest thing. I have found that holding the solder iron for 2 seconds and then suck with a pump, works the best when doing it manually. Desolder wig and ipa for cleaning. Good work Jan. Great video.
@@JanBeta For some reason. I find the C64 and other 8bit Commodore PCB's more sturdy than something like Amiga500. The old 1981-1985 era boards, can really take a beating.
Jan Beta --- I like the talking hand better than the fake, hyped up for likes, talking to the camera like sports commentators which most UA-camrs do. It feels more like I am standing there and you're showing me the computer.
I love the Plus/4 (as mentioned in the video). I have one that needs some refurbishment still. The only thing I did with it was fitting a new power connector to be able to use a C64 power supply.
Plus 4's and, to a lesser extent, the Commodore 16 have a thing about dying. Their TED and CPU chips are notoriously failure prone, thus the heatsinks in Herr Beta's machine.
These videos always tempt me to go shopping for new machines, I really need to chill though because I'm definitely spending a massive chunk of my part time salary on retro hardware as a student. Ended up buying a boxed VIC-20 a couple days ago and as usual I half unexpectedly spent the same amount on accessories to make it perfect... oh yeah and I am running out of room to store these things in my tiny studio apartment. I guess I'm just going to keep what I have currently and wait a few years before buying stuff again unless I come across an incredible deal but those never seem to appear
Yeah... Vintage computers are an expensive hobby. However, they are a great hobby, when soldering and modding are involved. It is so much more than these modern teen's that thinks that computing hobby are games only. Personally I am after a "TheC64" full size. I have a Breadbin C64 and I have a Model-C as well. So one of these modern 64's are what is missing in my collection.
@@JanBeta Yeah I hope so, I was not interested at first because the shipping was like 30€ but I asked for other options and got it to 10€ with UPS. If you're interested there was another one for sale that was missing the badge from the same seller, looks like it's still there too
Not bad, I use to make crummy Dupont Cables for a few months until I was shown the correct way. A tip for making Dupont Cables. Use a small pair of needle nose pliers to roll the back end of the pins around the sheathing of the wire then crimp it. Typically if I do bogged wiring good old 30 gauge wire wrap wire works very well and some times if there is space you can run the Wires under ICs and such to keep it neat and secured. Also you can Wire Wrap the wire to Headers and even on parts that have square shape legs.
Hallo Jan hab fast alle deine videos gesehen echt super weiter so! Hab ne frage zum C16 64k Umbau! Wenn ich die beiden hochgebogenen Beinchen von U7 und U8 an die mittleren Kontakte eines 2 Fachen Umschalter löte und dann eimmal zu den sockeln schalte und andersrum zu A14 und A15 sollte er doch einmal ganz normal laufen und einmal die 64k adressieren oder? Lg Retro Merlin 🙂
The keyboard matrix is different. If you pull the back pcb off the c16 keyboard and swap it with one from a c64 the keyboard will work. Dont forget that the case is different portwise as well.
As Jeff said, keyboard matrix is different (I think if you use the C16 one on a C64 you can short out things if you press the "right" keys even) and you would have to modify the case to have room for the ports. But I've seen mods like that done, so it is definitely possible with some work.
I think the reports of things not working with 64K are from people using the 64K RAM cartridges without disabling the onboard RAM. Anything that uses over 16K will cause bus contention and likely not work. I've not found any C16 or plus/4 titles that will not work on the upgraded machine.
Thanks for the video. I bought a non-working C16 and once I got it working I used this video as a guide for the RAM upgrade and it seemed to work fine. I wonder if you have been able to test this upgraded machine with any of the modern games such as Pets Rescue or Slipstream? Although my C16 shows the expanded RAM at boot, it still hangs on larger games and never finishes loading. The CPU and TED are both original and tested working in a Plus/4 so I can't imagine what the problem could be.
Ah, you fixed it quicker than I was able to answer! :D I was about to say that the expansion should be more or less exactly what's in the Plus/4, so it should behave like a native 64K system with it (and it does, everything I threw at it worked fine). Glad you were able to fix it!
Ciao Jan, and compliments for the beautiful video. We have provided your mods to your Commodore C16. The only problem is that the datasette is not working. Have you modified the fare to make the datassette functional? Thank you for anchoring and complimenting us on the internet site that brings back the emotions of our childhood.
Oh, the datasette should work fine with this mod. The datasette is basically driven directly from the CPU so if you did a mod on that (for example use a 6510 with an adapter), that’s the problem. Otherwise it might be an issue with the original CPU (which unfortunately break very often)!
Yes, I've done that a couple of times. Works well but mostly I'm too impatient to wait for the hot air station to heat up if it's only one stubborn pin.
They are very interesting machines in my opinion. Especially if you take into account that they were originally meant to be very low budget. Amazing what can be done with them (just take a look at the demo scene)!
@@JanBeta The Vic 20 has got 5 KB RAM and then they decided a machine must have 64 KB RAM. I said WTF! But then they launched a computer with a better BASIC programm. The C 16.
Hello Jan! Just wondering where I can buy the kind of heatsinks you're using to put on the chips in my C64 breadbin and C64C :-) Also thanks for all your great informative and fun to watch retro videos!
Thank you! Yes, I think so! It is still lacking a user port and the built-in software, otherwise the whole architecture should more or less be identical and all plus/4 software should run without any problems.
Jan,could you be so kind as to do an updated video of this but showing how to add a 6x pin 2way slide switch or toggle switch,so we can choose between the original 16k memory or the new 64k.The only reason i'm requesting is because i have just recently performed this DIY RAM upgrade on my C16 machine but i have 1 or 2 games (Rockman being the main culprit) that i can not play anymore,as the game loads in okay but the graphics are all "Blocky".So in order to play Rockman i would need my machine to power on in just 16k mode and not 64k.I really hope you don't mind my request to you and i always enjoy your brilliant and helpful videos on here :) Keep up the awesome work,sir :)
I saw a c64 back in '92 that was in for sale in a pawn shop, it had the keyboard raised to allow more ram chips to be piggy backed to the existing ones. Simple way of boosting the ram size, must have been 4 stacks high for a total of 256mb. But why they needed to go that high I don't know.
Maybe they did some high level GEOS work, I think that was able to run from RAM almost completely. I've never seen a piggy back RAM expansion in the C64. Interesting idea.
@@JanBeta Here's an article for the same done with a vic 20: paradroid.automac.se/vic20ram/ I've heard some Amigas were hacked this way also as ram expansions were terribly expensive back then, I know, I still have a fast ram accelerator in my A1200, it cost as much as my Amiga did or close to it! Mind you, it was a great machine with an 020 in it.
Good to see the mod worked. This mod is pretty much the same as the extra card that I put on top except that my mod is able to switch off (which I don’t see a big point of doing), ehhrr.. apart from that my machine doesn’t work anymore 😂
Not Jan, but I think I know the answer. The female connectors shown in the video won't match the IC pins, they are too big for them so there will be no electrical connection. I'm not even sure if female wire connectors exist that can be used on IC pins. Either way I find that soldering is usually much easier and faster then having to dig out the crimping tool for a job like this.
@@olavl8827 You can cut up a DIP socket (or a SIP socket) into individual pins and do it that way. You usually lose about half the pins doing this. However, the connection will be unreliable if it is just hanging out in the air like this. Soldering as Jan did is the better way to go.
17:00 : I'd say the opposite - precision sockets are for removable chips, like GALs, and EPROMs, and for prototyping, while regular sockets are for permanent installation. Chip in regular socket sits slightly lower than in precision one. Regular socket also ensure a better contact with chip pins, but the wipers deform more easily, when chip is reinserted too often.
Yeah, that makes sense, too. I just find it more difficult to insert chips into the precision sockets without bending/breaking pins. That's why I argued that way. For stuff that is permanently changed around, I'd go with ZIF sockets or something like that rather. ;)
Having used hundreds of both types of sockets I can assure you sockets with machined pins go slack and start making bad contacts very quickly if you insert/remove more than half a dozen times. This is especially true if at one point you insert pins that are slightly larger. The contact petals inside will widen permanently. The absolute best sockets are double leaf. My prefered brand is the Diplomat DL available at Digikey. I used one to test nearly 1000 PLAnktons on a C64 board 250466.
At 18:30...I can't stress this enough to people, do everything you can to avoid getting burned by a soldering iron. It only takes a split second, and you get an extremely painful 2nd degree burn. It sucks.
Edwin Noorlander The SID and VIC were replaced with an incompatible chip called TED. Also, a newer version of BASIC. The architecture is mostly incompatible with the 64/128.
This mod basically turns it into a Plus/4, not a C=64, only without the user port and built in ROM software featured on the Plus/4. The 264 series (C16, 116, and Plus/4) are only compatible with each other and were intended to be a low cost machine to take the spot of the VIC-20 in the product line as a low cost, entry level computer. The main advantages are faster CPU at 1.76MHz, much better BASIC, and the TED (replaces both the SID and VIC) which supports 128 colours, but the drawback is it doesn't have sprites and the audio is much less capable than the SID. www.commodore.ca/commodore-products/commodore-264-plus4-ted-series-the-beginning-of-the-end/
First computer I owned but it only lasted two years and one of the chips fried, probably the ted or the rom because it wouldn’t recognise any commands and there was this weird bar going across the screen, obviously as a nine year old I knew nothing about how to fix it so it went in the bin. Put me off owning a computer for years until I got an Amiga.
A bit of a mundane question, but where did you get the spray bottle you keep you isopropyl alchohol in? It looks repurposed... (A very neat mod, by the way! Nicely done.)
No, the only thing they have in common is a similar CPU. The rest of the architecture varies quite a lot, especially graphics/sound are handled differently (by the TED chip).
When I upgraded my c16 to 64Kb I had noticed that Xargon Wars game had a small annoying bug - after killing an enemy you can see an 'exploding' bubble - it doesn't dissapear after upgrade to 64kb...
@@JanBeta A chinese clone? How does it perform? I have a Weller DS-80 on a WMD-3 and have tried desoldering some ICs with it, but it doesn't seem to build a high vacuum. The solder seems to be drawn out slowly. But it could be me.
Lol, I'm already subscribed but putting that paper inside is funny. You see the same thing a lot on the videos people do where they restore what other people might consider junk, but I think they mostly do that so they don't break the unwritten rule of not speaking in those videos.
NEAT. I never saw the C16 in stores in my neck of the United States... though I saw LOTS of Plus4's. (For sale... I never knew anyone who owned one...) Still, it's pretty neat. :)
Bill Herd, original Commodore engineer, has talked extensively about how marketing started to micromanage the late 8-bit projects and ruined almost all of them. The C16 was originally supposed to sell for $49.99 to compete head-to-head with the Sinclair Spectrum, but instead Commodore put the price at around the same as the C64 (with some major things missing, such as hardware sprites or the infamous SID chip!) Commodore upper management would later mismanage the Amiga into oblivion as well. This is why Tesla is so great: The lead engineer also runs the company!
The order of the address (or data) bus wires doesn't really matter. Software doesn't care where the bytes physically are, if they can be read from the same memory address where they were written. The only difference would be if one of the A14/A15 wires doesn't work, C16 would "see" either 16 or 32 kB of RAM. (Cause it just tests writable ones just from the beginning, and doesn't notice if second working block is between 32-48k). I did the upgrade on mine at 1986 - the memory chips weren't cheap then for my budget - switching the power and seeing the thing work was some of the memorable things of my life =)
I performed this modification in a C16 NTSC version successfully, but I tried using 74LS257N chips in U7 and U8. U8 worked but U7 wouldn’t. The original non-N parts worked. What’s the difference between the N and non-N part?
Usually the N is just the package type, the properties should be the same for the non-N version. Maybe you accidentally used CMOS parts (74HC) or the manufacturers just changed some spec that made them not work for the purpose. Not sure.
It was planned to sell it at $49 to compete with the Sinclair/Timex stuff in the budget market. Would have made a lot of sense but management messed it up.
I was not aware you could even make this mod happen at all, but hey realistically it's possible that you could get it up to 64kb since it does have at least some similar architecture to the 64, but anyway good stuff as always Jan!
Thanks! Yes, the architecture is made for addressing 64k. Basically the same processor like the 6510 in the C64 but running at a higher clock speed (which is why it fails so often, too). ;)
My Dad bought the c16 and then the Plus/4 before they were discounted. (In the UK) They were pretty good for me as I did a lot of programming, but I had hardly any Plus/4 games. Just ACE and Mercenary and the 2 free games that came with it. It had better colours, much faster processor, better BASIC, faster floppy drives l, much more memory available to BASIC, etc. so it wasn’t all bad, just a shame about the lack of games. The built in business software was an absolute joke, though.
Skip to 9:10ish for a much better viewing experience. Never mind. This video is EXTREMELY tedious. Half an hour for about three minutes worth of actual content.
Thank you Jan for another very informative video, as I am a long time C64 hacker, modder and repairer. I have a question, where did you get that crimping tool and the pin header kit ? Coz I want, (no I need) them.
Oooh, a C16 made me cry as a kid. I kept asking a C64 for my birthday for years. Finally got a box with the Commodore logo. Was happy, until I noticed it was a C16. boohoo lol
Great Video again Jan!! Just upgraded an Ebay C16 which I got cheap, always use your videos to do any work on old 8Bit machines.Keep them coming!!!
Oh, nice! Glad my little tutorial was helpful! :)
Good job JB. Back in 1988 when I was stationed on Okinawa as a US Marine, I bought a Commodore to pass the time. I managed to get quite a collection of them because all the Marine that were going back home gave me their commodores and manuals. I still have my collection in the closet, together with my Apple IIE from 1984.
I'm so jealous!
Sometime since this video came out I picked up a C16. This morning I finally broke out the desoldering iron and socketed everything, installed new ram and a new pair of LS257s and the connectors to give me 64k! Thanks for the great video!
I got a Commodore 16 for Christmas in 1984. I still love this machine, the colour pallete and Basic was far better than the Commodore 64. It also had a built in reset and you could access the machine code monitor easily just by holding down the Commodore key and reset. Still looks cool. Coders like Udo Gertz produced games that were amazing feats of programming for the 264 series machines.
It had some very nice features and was a nice machine. It's too bad they removed hardware sprites and a chip that can compete with the infamous SID. This computer was originally supposed to sell for around $50 too! Still, I've seen some demos done for it that are really impressive.
Yes, it is very well designed. Especially if you keep in mind that it was meant to be a budget machine.
Very nice, when I do upgrades I put back into the case the old components because usually I lost them and some note with the work done.
Yeah, good idea. Would make sense for this, too. There's definitely enough room in the case. ;)
My commodore 16 stopped working in about 1988 so I chucked it.
I remember all the cheap games were really good and the expensive one crap.
I am now inspired to mod my C16! I've been wanting to do this for a while, and after seeing how easy it is thanks to your video, there's really no excuse now. Okay, one excuse, I have to get the new RAM chips first. D'oh!
Yay! Getting the RAM chips is not much of an excuse, I think there are plenty around still. ;)
Yup. Desolder chips are not the easiest thing. I have found that holding the solder iron for 2 seconds and then suck with a pump, works the best when doing it manually. Desolder wig and ipa for cleaning. Good work Jan. Great video.
Thanks! Yeah, as I said, it's quite easy to mess it up. I'm glad every time it works without doing damage to the traces/pads. :)
@@JanBeta For some reason. I find the C64 and other 8bit Commodore PCB's more sturdy than something like Amiga500. The old 1981-1985 era boards, can really take a beating.
Interesting modification. Here in the US I had never heard of this machine until now. I remember the Plus/4 in stores, but never this machine.
Yeah, I think most of the C16s and C116s were sold in Europe after it became clear how management had f'ed up things.
Love your videos Jan. Keep up the good work!
Thanks Steve! :)
The first 9:20 of the Video consist of a talking hand that is very competent in 8-bit matters.
The hand told me to say thanks... ;)
@@JanBeta 😄
Jan Beta --- I like the talking hand better than the fake, hyped up for likes, talking to the camera like sports commentators which most UA-camrs do. It feels more like I am standing there and you're showing me the computer.
Thank you, Thing.
I prefer it more that way! It's like playing a first person 3D shooter...
It's like I am the man of the action!... 👍
Jan, Great job as always!
Thank you! :)
Makes me wish I still had my Plus 4 from years ago..
I love the Plus/4 (as mentioned in the video). I have one that needs some refurbishment still. The only thing I did with it was fitting a new power connector to be able to use a C64 power supply.
MIne died many years ago, and I didn't have the knowledge or skill to fix it.. I do enjoy watching your videos mate.
Plus 4's and, to a lesser extent, the Commodore 16 have a thing about dying. Their TED and CPU chips are notoriously failure prone, thus the heatsinks in Herr Beta's machine.
@@dennisp.2147 Yes I had about four Plus/4 machines die on me. Whereas my VIC-20 that I bought as a teenager, still works.
Just remembering that we had a C16 it was a loaner from scheidegger with a special word prossessor rom. My brother did a type course.
Oh, interesting. Didn't know that existed. :)
Awesome video Jan! keep up the great work
Thanks Trevor! :)
These videos always tempt me to go shopping for new machines, I really need to chill though because I'm definitely spending a massive chunk of my part time salary on retro hardware as a student. Ended up buying a boxed VIC-20 a couple days ago and as usual I half unexpectedly spent the same amount on accessories to make it perfect... oh yeah and I am running out of room to store these things in my tiny studio apartment.
I guess I'm just going to keep what I have currently and wait a few years before buying stuff again unless I come across an incredible deal but those never seem to appear
Yeah... Vintage computers are an expensive hobby. However, they are a great hobby, when soldering and modding are involved. It is so much more than these modern teen's that thinks that computing hobby are games only.
Personally I am after a "TheC64" full size. I have a Breadbin C64 and I have a Model-C as well. So one of these modern 64's are what is missing in my collection.
@@brostenen Well, turns out I did have to order a C16 after all. Couldn't pass on one that was sold for 40€
@@waldevv Sweet.... 40 pounds are nothing. Congrats. 🤘🤘🤘
Oh, that's a nice price indeed! Hope it works fine. :)
@@JanBeta Yeah I hope so, I was not interested at first because the shipping was like 30€ but I asked for other options and got it to 10€ with UPS. If you're interested there was another one for sale that was missing the badge from the same seller, looks like it's still there too
I really liked the video... I just got 2 C16 and a plus/4 "Black Screen" in and the videos are going to help me a lot, I think.
Great. Explained very well. Your're a genius
Wie immer sehr gutes Video und danke
Vielen Dank! :)
What fun! And I love the professional looking plug. Cheers.
Thanks Pauline. :)
Not bad, I use to make crummy Dupont Cables for a few months until I was shown the correct way.
A tip for making Dupont Cables. Use a small pair of needle nose pliers to roll the back end of the pins around the sheathing of the wire then crimp it.
Typically if I do bogged wiring good old 30 gauge wire wrap wire works very well and some times if there is space you can run the Wires under ICs and such to keep it neat and secured. Also you can Wire Wrap the wire to Headers and even on parts that have square shape legs.
22:41 is that 555 from GDR ?
No idea, NE555 is just the official name of the 555 timer chip I think.
I believe so. See www.richis-lab.de/555_3.htm
very good mod Jan,this makes me want to work on my Plus 4. Kudos.
Thanks Francisco! I also have a Plus/4 I need to do some more work on. :)
Great job Jan =D
Thank you sir! :)
Very nice Jan, although I do miss the isopropanol alcohol 😉
Lol, thanks. :D
Hallo Jan hab fast alle deine videos gesehen echt super weiter so! Hab ne frage zum C16 64k Umbau! Wenn ich die beiden hochgebogenen Beinchen von U7 und U8 an die mittleren Kontakte eines 2 Fachen Umschalter löte und dann eimmal zu den sockeln schalte und andersrum zu A14 und A15 sollte er doch einmal ganz normal laufen und einmal die 64k adressieren oder? Lg Retro Merlin 🙂
Much prefer the colour scheme on the C16 compared to the original breadbin C64. I wonder if I could transplant my C64 into a C16 case...
The keyboard matrix is different. If you pull the back pcb off the c16 keyboard and swap it with one from a c64 the keyboard will work. Dont forget that the case is different portwise as well.
As Jeff said, keyboard matrix is different (I think if you use the C16 one on a C64 you can short out things if you press the "right" keys even) and you would have to modify the case to have room for the ports. But I've seen mods like that done, so it is definitely possible with some work.
I think the reports of things not working with 64K are from people using the 64K RAM cartridges without disabling the onboard RAM. Anything that uses over 16K will cause bus contention and likely not work. I've not found any C16 or plus/4 titles that will not work on the upgraded machine.
Another great job done!
Thank you sir! ;)
Thanks for the video. I bought a non-working C16 and once I got it working I used this video as a guide for the RAM upgrade and it seemed to work fine. I wonder if you have been able to test this upgraded machine with any of the modern games such as Pets Rescue or Slipstream? Although my C16 shows the expanded RAM at boot, it still hangs on larger games and never finishes loading. The CPU and TED are both original and tested working in a Plus/4 so I can't imagine what the problem could be.
Fixed! If this happens to anyone else check the 7404 or 7406 in slot U9!
Ah, you fixed it quicker than I was able to answer! :D I was about to say that the expansion should be more or less exactly what's in the Plus/4, so it should behave like a native 64K system with it (and it does, everything I threw at it worked fine). Glad you were able to fix it!
Nostalgia Mode .... THX!!!! And now it is Commodore Plus 16 ;-)
Sounds about right! ;)
Ciao Jan, and compliments for the beautiful video. We have provided your mods to your Commodore C16. The only problem is that the datasette is not working. Have you modified the fare to make the datassette functional? Thank you for anchoring and complimenting us on the internet site that brings back the emotions of our childhood.
Oh, the datasette should work fine with this mod. The datasette is basically driven directly from the CPU so if you did a mod on that (for example use a 6510 with an adapter), that’s the problem. Otherwise it might be an issue with the original CPU (which unfortunately break very often)!
@@JanBeta Yes, very brave, I also installed the CPU 6510 at the post of the 8501. Ok thank you, it depends. Grazie ancora molte.
For the stubborn pin like in the 14:10 minute is it possibile to use also hot air station?
Yes, I've done that a couple of times. Works well but mostly I'm too impatient to wait for the hot air station to heat up if it's only one stubborn pin.
Good job! The C16 is totally uncharted territory for me. They were almost impossible to find in Sweden. But... now I suddenly feel like I need one...
They are very interesting machines in my opinion. Especially if you take into account that they were originally meant to be very low budget. Amazing what can be done with them (just take a look at the demo scene)!
It's works great! Good!
Hmmm I have a C16 restoration coming up soon as it was my first computer ever! I might give this mod a go :) Thanks Jan
Can you install a sid and a c64 rom and make it a c64?
No, it's a completely different architecture. I believe there are SID addon cartridges though.
Jan Beta darn.. i had a c16. It was pal and I didn’t know how to make it work.
The Commodore 16 is the real 8 bit king.
Definitely a well thought through machine, just marketed completely wrong in the beginning. ;)
@@JanBeta The Vic 20 has got 5 KB RAM and then they decided a machine must have 64 KB RAM. I said WTF! But then they launched a computer with a better BASIC programm. The C 16.
I'm sooo going to put my solder tip brass ball in a jar like you do!
Oh, nice! Yeah, works better than those plastic thingies in my experience because of the extra weight. Also, you can close it and put it away. :)
Jan Beta Also great so the cat doesnt you know...
COOL mod! Didn't know that this is possible! Great!
Greetings, Doc64!
Thank you Doc! It is a really useful (and not too difficult) mod indeed! :)
Hello Jan!
Just wondering where I can buy the kind of heatsinks you're using to put on the chips in my C64 breadbin and C64C :-)
Also thanks for all your great informative and fun to watch retro videos!
Great video again janbeta! Interesting that you can play plus 4 titles on it. Is it almost 100% compatible with the plus 4?
Thank you! Yes, I think so! It is still lacking a user port and the built-in software, otherwise the whole architecture should more or less be identical and all plus/4 software should run without any problems.
Jan,could you be so kind as to do an updated video of this but showing how to add a 6x pin 2way slide switch or toggle switch,so we can choose between the original 16k memory or the new 64k.The only reason i'm requesting is because i have just recently performed this DIY RAM upgrade on my C16 machine but i have 1 or 2 games (Rockman being the main culprit) that i can not play anymore,as the game loads in okay but the graphics are all "Blocky".So in order to play Rockman i would need my machine to power on in just 16k mode and not 64k.I really hope you don't mind my request to you and i always enjoy your brilliant and helpful videos on here :) Keep up the awesome work,sir :)
I saw a c64 back in '92 that was in for sale in a pawn shop, it had the keyboard raised to allow more ram chips to be piggy backed to the existing ones. Simple way of boosting the ram size, must have been 4 stacks high for a total of 256mb. But why they needed to go that high I don't know.
Maybe they did some high level GEOS work, I think that was able to run from RAM almost completely. I've never seen a piggy back RAM expansion in the C64. Interesting idea.
@@JanBeta Here's an article for the same done with a vic 20:
paradroid.automac.se/vic20ram/
I've heard some Amigas were hacked this way also as ram expansions were terribly expensive back then, I know, I still have a fast ram accelerator in my A1200, it cost as much as my Amiga did or close to it! Mind you, it was a great machine with an 020 in it.
Good to see the mod worked. This mod is pretty much the same as the extra card that I put on top except that my mod is able to switch off (which I don’t see a big point of doing), ehhrr.. apart from that my machine doesn’t work anymore 😂
Yes, Dave (Tynemouth Software) used the same connection points as with the mod PCB. I hope you can get your machine(s) to work again! :)
Good job. What about cutting the correspondent pin on the sockets instead of bending real chip pins? Cheers, M
Hey Jan, couldn't you just pop a single connector on the other end of the wires and plug them straight onto the IC legs? No soldering necessary.
Not Jan, but I think I know the answer. The female connectors shown in the video won't match the IC pins, they are too big for them so there will be no electrical connection. I'm not even sure if female wire connectors exist that can be used on IC pins.
Either way I find that soldering is usually much easier and faster then having to dig out the crimping tool for a job like this.
@@olavl8827 You can cut up a DIP socket (or a SIP socket) into individual pins and do it that way. You usually lose about half the pins doing this. However, the connection will be unreliable if it is just hanging out in the air like this. Soldering as Jan did is the better way to go.
I had a vic20 I also remember the plus 4 I think
17:00 : I'd say the opposite - precision sockets are for removable chips, like GALs, and EPROMs, and for prototyping, while regular sockets are for permanent installation. Chip in regular socket sits slightly lower than in precision one. Regular socket also ensure a better contact with chip pins, but the wipers deform more easily, when chip is reinserted too often.
Yeah, that makes sense, too. I just find it more difficult to insert chips into the precision sockets without bending/breaking pins. That's why I argued that way. For stuff that is permanently changed around, I'd go with ZIF sockets or something like that rather. ;)
Having used hundreds of both types of sockets I can assure you sockets with machined pins go slack and start making bad contacts very quickly if you insert/remove more than half a dozen times. This is especially true if at one point you insert pins that are slightly larger. The contact petals inside will widen permanently. The absolute best sockets are double leaf. My prefered brand is the Diplomat DL available at Digikey. I used one to test nearly 1000 PLAnktons on a C64 board 250466.
At 18:30...I can't stress this enough to people, do everything you can to avoid getting burned by a soldering iron. It only takes a split second, and you get an extremely painful 2nd degree burn. It sucks.
Nice!
Thanks!
So what’s the main difference between the C64(16) and the C64? The rom’s? Or also the PLA, SID and VIC
Edwin Noorlander The SID and VIC were replaced with an incompatible chip called TED. Also, a newer version of BASIC. The architecture is mostly incompatible with the 64/128.
Joe McLaughlin oke, thanks.
Yes, what Joe says. Sorry for being late. ;)
Better late than sorry. 🤗
This mod basically turns it into a Plus/4, not a C=64, only without the user port and built in ROM software featured on the Plus/4. The 264 series (C16, 116, and Plus/4) are only compatible with each other and were intended to be a low cost machine to take the spot of the VIC-20 in the product line as a low cost, entry level computer. The main advantages are faster CPU at 1.76MHz, much better BASIC, and the TED (replaces both the SID and VIC) which supports 128 colours, but the drawback is it doesn't have sprites and the audio is much less capable than the SID.
www.commodore.ca/commodore-products/commodore-264-plus4-ted-series-the-beginning-of-the-end/
very nice...again! :-)
Thank you! :)
Commodore Sixteen-Four.
great job. Anyhow, quick question: Is there a chance to do this upgrade "switchable" - so that I can switch between 16 and 64 kB?
Lunch time, new Jan Beta video - can life get any better? :-)
Thanks Joe! Hope you enjoyed both your lunch and the video. ;)
First computer I owned but it only lasted two years and one of the chips fried, probably the ted or the rom because it wouldn’t recognise any commands and there was this weird bar going across the screen, obviously as a nine year old I knew nothing about how to fix it so it went in the bin. Put me off owning a computer for years until I got an Amiga.
Uh, yeah, those custom chips were not very well made. TED and CPU die a lot in these. Glad you got over it and started over with the Amiga. :)
A bit of a mundane question, but where did you get the spray bottle you keep you isopropyl alchohol in? It looks repurposed...
(A very neat mod, by the way! Nicely done.)
It was a deodorant bottle before. :)
@@JanBeta Hehe, okay! I shall look for one on the supermarket shelves! =)
I did the trace cutting method on mine. It didn't bother me, because I'm not going to revert it anyway.
Yes, makes sense. I don't think it will ever be necessary to go back to 16k really.
Where can i get one of those Lips computer screens?
It's a secret prototype. No idea if it is ever going to hit the market. I was lucky to get one.
wo gibt es die tollen kühlkörper?
but is it comparable to the c64?
No, the only thing they have in common is a similar CPU. The rest of the architecture varies quite a lot, especially graphics/sound are handled differently (by the TED chip).
i need to do this
Definitely worth it for all the plus/4 software you can run. Some really decent 64k games, too. :)
We haven't had a spectrum video for a while :( maybe a zx spectrum + recapping/restoration?
I have a 2+ here I need to do some work on. I'll get to it!
@@JanBeta Awesome!
When I upgraded my c16 to 64Kb I had noticed that Xargon Wars game had a small annoying bug - after killing an enemy you can see an 'exploding' bubble - it doesn't dissapear after upgrade to 64kb...
Oh, thanks! Interesting bug. Will have to test that sometime.
Nice job!
Thank you!
Desoldering needles would be ideal for that job. I urge anyone who doesn't have a set to grab some (very cheap on AliExpress) and try them out.
Hi Jan, is that a Pace desoldering station that you use?
It's a "Editronic" branded ZD-915.
@@JanBeta A chinese clone? How does it perform? I have a Weller DS-80 on a WMD-3 and have tried desoldering some ICs with it, but it doesn't seem to build a high vacuum. The solder seems to be drawn out slowly. But it could be me.
So, I have a "black screen" plus 4. Can I use its memory ics to boost my C16?
If I remember correctly, the Plus 4 uses 8 x 4164 RAM chips so that will not work without an adapter PCB.
Can I use etanol? Or only isopropanol!
Try a nice India Pale Ale ;)
You can use both, I just prefer the smell of isopropanol.
Skyhawk does not run on my 64K C16. Loads up, your press fire and then it just freezes. Everything else runs fine.
Ah, there it is :)
Lol, I'm already subscribed but putting that paper inside is funny. You see the same thing a lot on the videos people do where they restore what other people might consider junk, but I think they mostly do that so they don't break the unwritten rule of not speaking in those videos.
It’s a bit of a nod in the direction of the UA-camrs you mentioned. I thoroughly enjoy watching those videos. :)
@@JanBeta yeah me too, they're almost addictive.
Is Odd Tinkering one of the channels you're referring to?
NEAT. I never saw the C16 in stores in my neck of the United States... though I saw LOTS of Plus4's. (For sale... I never knew anyone who owned one...) Still, it's pretty neat. :)
Yes, I think most of these were sold discounted in Europe after the marketing mess up became apparent. ;)
Bill Herd, original Commodore engineer, has talked extensively about how marketing started to micromanage the late 8-bit projects and ruined almost all of them. The C16 was originally supposed to sell for $49.99 to compete head-to-head with the Sinclair Spectrum, but instead Commodore put the price at around the same as the C64 (with some major things missing, such as hardware sprites or the infamous SID chip!)
Commodore upper management would later mismanage the Amiga into oblivion as well. This is why Tesla is so great: The lead engineer also runs the company!
Yeah, management ruined a lot at Commodore. Amazing how they still managed to keep afloat for such a long time.
@@JanBeta Luckily they had a great product and excellent users. Otherwise they would have died many years earlier.
The order of the address (or data) bus wires doesn't really matter. Software doesn't care where the bytes physically are, if they can be read from the same memory address where they were written. The only difference would be if one of the A14/A15 wires doesn't work, C16 would "see" either 16 or 32 kB of RAM. (Cause it just tests writable ones just from the beginning, and doesn't notice if second working block is between 32-48k). I did the upgrade on mine at 1986 - the memory chips weren't cheap then for my budget - switching the power and seeing the thing work was some of the memorable things of my life =)
Oh, interesting to know. I was wondering that because in most guides the way to wire these up wasn't even mentioned. Thanks! :)
@@JanBeta it's easy to check, just switch your adapter around and see if works =)
Can you add links to the crimp tool and the connector set? Thanks ;-)
Unfortunately I didn't bookmark them. Bought that stuff quite a while ago (from eBay I think). You have to look for it yourself. Sorry!
22:03 - momentry lapse of sanity? i get those too. : )))
I performed this modification in a C16 NTSC version successfully, but I tried using 74LS257N chips in U7 and U8. U8 worked but U7 wouldn’t. The original non-N parts worked. What’s the difference between the N and non-N part?
Usually the N is just the package type, the properties should be the same for the non-N version. Maybe you accidentally used CMOS parts (74HC) or the manufacturers just changed some spec that made them not work for the purpose. Not sure.
Thanks for the answer. No, I made sure to use LS parts and not HC or HCT or whatever. And the eBay vendor thought I was leaving him ‘silly’ feedback.
I love "pluck and play" :)
Pluck! Play! Repeat!
I hated the C16, I didn't see the point. I also did not realise it came out after the 64. Madness!
It was planned to sell it at $49 to compete with the Sinclair/Timex stuff in the budget market. Would have made a lot of sense but management messed it up.
@@JanBeta typical Commodore 😁
Rockman does not run in 64K mode.
So now it's a C1664 .
Why not 128k?.
Because they can't be addressed without major modifications.
I was not aware you could even make this mod happen at all, but hey realistically it's possible that you could get it up to 64kb since it does have at least some similar architecture to the 64, but anyway good stuff as always Jan!
Thanks! Yes, the architecture is made for addressing 64k. Basically the same processor like the 6510 in the C64 but running at a higher clock speed (which is why it fails so often, too). ;)
My Dad bought the c16 and then the Plus/4 before they were discounted. (In the UK) They were pretty good for me as I did a lot of programming, but I had hardly any Plus/4 games. Just ACE and Mercenary and the 2 free games that came with it. It had better colours, much faster processor, better BASIC, faster floppy drives l, much more memory available to BASIC, etc. so it wasn’t all bad, just a shame about the lack of games. The built in business software was an absolute joke, though.
Skip to 9:10ish for a much better viewing experience. Never mind. This video is EXTREMELY tedious. Half an hour for about three minutes worth of actual content.
Sorry if you feel like I wasted your time.
..what is this lad breaking again, huh? ;)
Lol, worked out okay this time! #spoilers
@@JanBeta well done then ;)
Saw the name, was hoping for an intelligent bird ざんねん
Jan, bitte, befeuchten.
aaaand then what do you do with it?
bip bip bip........
Yay! A crimper! Once you get used to crimping, you'll never go back.
Yes, really convenient indeed. :)
Thank you Jan for another very informative video, as I am a long time C64 hacker, modder and repairer.
I have a question, where did you get that crimping tool and the pin header kit ? Coz I want, (no I need) them.
so you just made it a c64
A plus/4 actually, minus the 4 production built in software in rom
Oooh, a C16 made me cry as a kid.
I kept asking a C64 for my birthday for years. Finally got a box with the Commodore logo.
Was happy, until I noticed it was a C16.
boohoo lol
same thing happend to me was not very happy :(
Oh. :/
This is basically a basic mod wich basically make your C16 basically to a literal c64... basically. :D
Nope... The chips are so way different. The C64 was actually, basically the VIC-II and the SID. It just happened to have 64k ram.
@@brostenen Basically you did not get the joke.
@@BaumInventions Ahhh.... How should I know, when there is no smiley, reflecting the mood of your message? 😁
@@brostenen Once there was a time before autocorrection made a simple :D into a amused yellow ball ;)
@@BaumInventions Yeah.... Now time have changed.
Icicle Works = Boulder Dash
Also = a UK band from the 80's named after a classic scifi story by author Frederik Pohl
Yes, a good BD clone. Plays really smoothly.
Hi good to see my first computer 1985 in sale at comet electrical store £49.99
+1 But why I am watching this video? I am pro atari 800xl, not Commodore.
Haha, sorry. More Atari content coming soon.
Nice Boulder Dash rip-off. ;)
Yes, it plays really smoothly. :)
Reminds me of Repton on the BBC Master