Very impressed with what the C16 can do, albeit not in original form, but the quality of the graphics, the audio and resolution are incredible for such a humble machine.
Great video. Interesting to see some of the newer software. The reason for the wrinkled copper on the PCB is because of how they were made back in the days before SMT. After etching boards were tinned before the solder mask was applied presumably because the solder mask wasn't very good at handling high temps. Nowadays the solder mask is applied before tinning or ENIG/gold plating.
Nice upgrade! Do you know what exactly is the problem with the C64 compatibility. I mean despite of the ports on the back. Now with 64K of RAM what else can be done to make it run C64 software? I mean the CPU is basically the same 6510, or is there a bigger difference?
The C16 is a completely different architecture from the C64 -- Yes, the CPUs are related. But what used to be the VIC-II and the SID in the C64 is now the TED chip. The TED is in no way compatible to either of the other chips. So anything that uses graphics or sound will not work. Yes, game logic and talking to floppy drives will be easier to port, but all else will have to be rewritten. The C16 belongs to the 264 line of Commodore machines, which were all based on the TED chip and were aimed to be cheap business computers. That all went bust when Jack Tramiel got ousted and Commodore jacked up the prices on the cheapest machines of the line, the C116 and C16 and the whole line basically flopped. It had a brief resurgence after 1989 when old stock got sold off really cheap in the former soviet bloc.
@@root42 They weren't even originally oriented at being business computers. The TED was more a reaction to the ZX Spectrum, which showed cost-cutting techniques that put even Commodore's notorious penny pinching to shame. When it was clear that the C64 was actually competing well at the bottom end, they were kind of lost on what to do with it. The Plus/4 was more of a last minute attempt to use all the work that had been put into TED into a home office/small business use case. This was doomed to fail, of course, due to 40 column display, and the move away from software in ROM (as in dedicated word processors). The C16 was closer to the originally planned bottom-cost computer, but by then they'd realized that it was not going to work, but they didn't want to waste the motherboards and TEDs they'd already made, so they ran cases and keyboards with existing C64/VIC-20 tooling and dumped them all onto the East European market, where they actually did quite well.
You don't have to replace the RAM chips - there's a board that goes under the TED chip with 64K that maps into the addressing/data lines. The TED chip has a socket on top making the mod completely reversible.
3 роки тому+1
One thing where TED shined over VIC-II is the number of colours. TED has 128 colours (well, 121, since all shades of black are just black). VIC-II only has 16 colours (surely some can mix them with dithering, or other tricks like that). The tragedy of the C16/Plus4 is basically Commodore's marking. Jack Tramiel wanted to have a new lines of cheap computers to compete with ZX Spectrum and replace the ageing VIC-20's role (neither had sprites, or better audio than TED can do) at a cheaper price point than C64 (for people cannot afford a C64). It was not intended to replace C64 or compete with it or even being compatible with it. However after Jack's leave, it seems Commodore leadership could not figure out what the original intent was, so they wanted to make them as a more expensive machine and/or a "business computer" instead, so the built-in ROM software of the Plus4 for example. Also many people felt "to be fooled" as they thought "plus 4" is a better computer than C64, clearly marketing and ads may haven't helped either to be very clear. Not being C64 compatible is a n interesting topic, in general. I think, the success of Commodore with C64 had Commodore's problem as well, everybody wanted a newer computer after C64, but still it should be C64 compatible. And if you have it (like C128) then software vendors basically reacted like "well, if it's C64 compatible, why we should develop for C64/C128, let's do it for C64 only, C128 can run that as well". And surely, at that time, it was not like with the PC, it was almost impossible to make a compatible but faster computer, without breaking many software (thus not being compatible any more). Unless you have something like the C128, which basically replicated a C64 inside (including VIC-II, besides C128's VDC). But that surely defeats the purpose to have a cheaper computer at the first place.
The SD2IEC I have requires a micro USB cable for power. Note however that the SD2IEC has limited capabilities! Most of the demos will not work and many of the modern games neither. There is a version of Lykia for SD2IEC though. For maximum compatibility take a Pi1541 which uses a Raspberry Pi (Zero is sufficient) to emulate the drive completely, including the CPU.
It's a lot easier to just add sockets for the extra RAM chips, then plug them in the sockets, add a "Flick Switch" on the rear of the console (or even inside if you don't want to go cutting out holes of the casing) Then with the Switch one way you still have the standered 16k of RAM, flick the switch and you have the 64k of RAM. I did this to my C16 and also added an internal SD2IEC to run games from an SD card instead of loading tape games.
The c16 was the best looking bread bin ....they wasted their time with the plus 4 they should have just made a 64k c16 with c64 software compatability it should have been a c64 with all the bugs ironed out 121 colours 3 channel audio v 3.5 basic the ted chip is capable of interlacing at 496x320 the demo images are more superior against the c64s limited color they could of easily sold more machines in Eastern Europe and brazil
Yeah, why did commodore leave this market to Amstrad, MSX, and homebrew extension like super CPU ? Instead we got a C128 which anyone ever used in C128 mode. MOS could fab Amiga chips. So integration of the C64 should have been possible. Put all the chips on a long strip in a repeated pattern. Cut off the defect ones. PCB only acts as bodge wire to up the yield. 1984 no cycle tricks were used . Could easily recreate VIC-II to the specs. No illegal opcodes.
Very impressed with what the C16 can do, albeit not in original form, but the quality of the graphics, the audio and resolution are incredible for such a humble machine.
It's a nice little machine indeed. Sadly never sold in my country so they're hard to find.
Fun video, please keep them coming. :)
Great video. Interesting to see some of the newer software. The reason for the wrinkled copper on the PCB is because of how they were made back in the days before SMT. After etching boards were tinned before the solder mask was applied presumably because the solder mask wasn't very good at handling high temps. Nowadays the solder mask is applied before tinning or ENIG/gold plating.
At around 7:00 the video talks about links in the video description to the source for the hardware parts ... didn't find it (hungarian shop).
Added some links!
Nice upgrade! Do you know what exactly is the problem with the C64 compatibility. I mean despite of the ports on the back. Now with 64K of RAM what else can be done to make it run C64 software? I mean the CPU is basically the same 6510, or is there a bigger difference?
The C16 is a completely different architecture from the C64 -- Yes, the CPUs are related. But what used to be the VIC-II and the SID in the C64 is now the TED chip. The TED is in no way compatible to either of the other chips. So anything that uses graphics or sound will not work. Yes, game logic and talking to floppy drives will be easier to port, but all else will have to be rewritten. The C16 belongs to the 264 line of Commodore machines, which were all based on the TED chip and were aimed to be cheap business computers. That all went bust when Jack Tramiel got ousted and Commodore jacked up the prices on the cheapest machines of the line, the C116 and C16 and the whole line basically flopped. It had a brief resurgence after 1989 when old stock got sold off really cheap in the former soviet bloc.
@@root42 I see, thank you very much!
@@root42 They weren't even originally oriented at being business computers. The TED was more a reaction to the ZX Spectrum, which showed cost-cutting techniques that put even Commodore's notorious penny pinching to shame. When it was clear that the C64 was actually competing well at the bottom end, they were kind of lost on what to do with it.
The Plus/4 was more of a last minute attempt to use all the work that had been put into TED into a home office/small business use case. This was doomed to fail, of course, due to 40 column display, and the move away from software in ROM (as in dedicated word processors).
The C16 was closer to the originally planned bottom-cost computer, but by then they'd realized that it was not going to work, but they didn't want to waste the motherboards and TEDs they'd already made, so they ran cases and keyboards with existing C64/VIC-20 tooling and dumped them all onto the East European market, where they actually did quite well.
You don't have to replace the RAM chips - there's a board that goes under the TED chip with 64K that maps into the addressing/data lines. The TED chip has a socket on top making the mod completely reversible.
One thing where TED shined over VIC-II is the number of colours. TED has 128 colours (well, 121, since all shades of black are just black). VIC-II only has 16 colours (surely some can mix them with dithering, or other tricks like that). The tragedy of the C16/Plus4 is basically Commodore's marking. Jack Tramiel wanted to have a new lines of cheap computers to compete with ZX Spectrum and replace the ageing VIC-20's role (neither had sprites, or better audio than TED can do) at a cheaper price point than C64 (for people cannot afford a C64). It was not intended to replace C64 or compete with it or even being compatible with it. However after Jack's leave, it seems Commodore leadership could not figure out what the original intent was, so they wanted to make them as a more expensive machine and/or a "business computer" instead, so the built-in ROM software of the Plus4 for example. Also many people felt "to be fooled" as they thought "plus 4" is a better computer than C64, clearly marketing and ads may haven't helped either to be very clear. Not being C64 compatible is a n interesting topic, in general. I think, the success of Commodore with C64 had Commodore's problem as well, everybody wanted a newer computer after C64, but still it should be C64 compatible. And if you have it (like C128) then software vendors basically reacted like "well, if it's C64 compatible, why we should develop for C64/C128, let's do it for C64 only, C128 can run that as well". And surely, at that time, it was not like with the PC, it was almost impossible to make a compatible but faster computer, without breaking many software (thus not being compatible any more). Unless you have something like the C128, which basically replicated a C64 inside (including VIC-II, besides C128's VDC). But that surely defeats the purpose to have a cheaper computer at the first place.
Hi do I need a power supply if I were to use a SD2IEC SD Card Reader, could you elaborate on what I need to get game images running thanks
The SD2IEC I have requires a micro USB cable for power. Note however that the SD2IEC has limited capabilities! Most of the demos will not work and many of the modern games neither. There is a version of Lykia for SD2IEC though. For maximum compatibility take a Pi1541 which uses a Raspberry Pi (Zero is sufficient) to emulate the drive completely, including the CPU.
It's a lot easier to just add sockets for the extra RAM chips, then plug them in the sockets, add a "Flick Switch" on the rear of the console (or even inside if you don't want to go cutting out holes of the casing) Then with the Switch one way you still have the standered 16k of RAM, flick the switch and you have the 64k of RAM. I did this to my C16 and also added an internal SD2IEC to run games from an SD card instead of loading tape games.
Or you could take a Plus/4 and yank out the not-very-good 3+1 ROM
True, but C16 are much more common here. I leave my Plus/4 as is...
The c16 was the best looking bread bin ....they wasted their time with the plus 4 they should have just made a 64k c16 with c64 software compatability it should have been a c64 with all the bugs ironed out 121 colours 3 channel audio v 3.5 basic the ted chip is capable of interlacing at 496x320 the demo images are more superior against the c64s limited color they could of easily sold more machines in Eastern Europe and brazil
Yeah the whole 264 series lacked a focused effort.
@@root42 I had a plus 4 it was my 1st never forget mum clocking treasure Island and fire ant
Yeah, why did commodore leave this market to Amstrad, MSX, and homebrew extension like super CPU ? Instead we got a C128 which anyone ever used in C128 mode. MOS could fab Amiga chips. So integration of the C64 should have been possible. Put all the chips on a long strip in a repeated pattern. Cut off the defect ones. PCB only acts as bodge wire to up the yield.
1984 no cycle tricks were used . Could easily recreate VIC-II to the specs. No illegal opcodes.