The Melee GOAT Pyramid
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- Inspired by @JxmyHighroller, HMW and Toph discuss who takes the spots in the coveted GOAT pyramid.
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Who belongs on the list who didn't make the cut? Who is placed too high or too low?
would have absolutely swapped m2k and zain, and i love hmw's arguments for mang0 being the top.
i would say hmw shoulda been on the list but this is performance oriented. would love to see another pyramid for contributors of the scene.
Love aMSa but he doesn't belong on the same tier as M2K, PP, or Ken yet. Also Moky should be in GOAT tier.
Aside from M2K not being in Tier 2, everything’s legit
@@SungFuamsas better than m2k and ppmd tbh
@@KatayokuSensen amsa only had 2022 of winning and m2k was the robot and ppmd was one of the 5 gods
Slug is the GOAT for saying he supports the wobbling ban and then retiring
No way he retired😢
After whooping a ton of ass too, backed up his claim and dipped lol
Armada doesn't have crazy losers bracket runs cause armada simply didn't have to have losers bracket runs.
No need for a comeback when you're never behind
what about when he lost in losers?
@@ethangoodman2870 He does have some good loser's bracket runs like Smash Summit 2 and Smash and Splash 4. He didn't lose often but when he did he still had some good runs.
@@ethangoodman2870 He's only entered top 8 from losers twice and had one of the longest losers run in melee's competitive history. Plus he has double the amount of 1st places than 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th combined. 41/82. so I don't know where this narrative is coming from.
@@MrHebee1 i wasnt the one who said he doesnt have good losers runs. i didnt say that.
their criteria was "peak over longevity" and "skill is important but numbers don't lie" and then they gave it to mango over armada anyway 💀
They gotta break their own logic to put Mang0 at the top lmao.
Do you want Ken to be number one because of peak dominance or Zain/Cody/Amsa/Jmook/Mango to be number one because of peak skill, or do you want Armada to be number one because of peak skill if you don’t count years after 2016
@@jeremyhillson9210 because ken still played in the 2013-2018 era and got fucking bodied. we don't have to hypothesise - armada and ken have played twice. guess who won twice?
armada also played mango.. for 10 years.. guess who won 29-21? guess who won more #1 tournaments and still hasn't been taken over. guess won won more #1 end of year rankings and still hasn't been taken over
meanwhile mango has.. been second to zain for a few years, and now he is the goat? goat of what? being #2 (if that)?
@@AlexRoseGames Yeah throughout the history of melee Mango has always been and always will be the quintessential underdog. He has the greatest longevity of any player ever but he always requires an adversary who has the edge over him as a means of motivation (armada, hbox for a period, zain more recently).
There was really only a year or 2 around 2009 where mango was indisputably the best.
@@jeremyhillson9210 For me it would be Armada under a combination of peak dominance and peak skill. Ken, mango, and hbox would be runner-ups.
this is like. the hardest power-duo i've ever seen
It aint a Jxmmy-inspired video without a graph that shows exactly how dominant a player is in a certain stat
Jxmmy high roller the goat
fr tho imma need that
Zeke is the goat
Kinda inconsistent with the arguments for the GOAT spot, like what they used against Hbox's case compared to mang0's, saying that Hbox has a losing H2H (but mang0 has a losing H2H vs Armada) and hasn't claimed back the top spot after 2019 (ignoring that mang0 has not been official year rank #1 since 2014). They also bring up multiple characters as a point in favor of mang0, ignoring that Armada also had multiple (Peach, Fox, and Young Link which was very important for about 4 years). If all of these arguments were used consistently, Armada should be at the top of the pyramid.
The Melee community will always choose to value whatever makes Mang0 the goat the most
Yeah, like it's weird because I don't even think it's that hard to argue Mang0 is the goat over Armada or HBox, but the values they talked about at the beginning really don't line up with how they actually built the list. Like I love SLuG, but why does him getting Top 8s with Icies make him more impressive than Axe winning Summit with Pikachu? I also think they should've talked about how much they were valuing Slippi, since imo they somewhat overvalued it.
I know Brandon been trying to make Jxmy-like content for a while now. Shoutouts to GG for making it work.
You love to see it.
Would love to see a video going through the CSS and picking a GOAT for each character!
Marth and Fox would probably be the hardest
@@TheBeggies95 marth is just straight up zain at this point. you can't call m2k the goat of marth if he never learnt pivot tippers and rarely solo mained. fox it's between leffen and mango but I would give it to leffen because mango never really played the falcon matchup and played the ditto far less frequently
imo
doc - shroomed (higher peaks than franz even if it were in an easier era)
mario - scorp
luigi - plup
bowser - REDACTED
peach - armada
yoshi - amsa
dk - tough one. I would probably give it to ringler at this point but rishi, westballz etc. have serious dks
falcon - wizzy
ganon - probably n0ne? maybe kword
falco - mango
fox - leffen. honourable mentions to mango and ibdw (and to a lesser extent armada)
ness - simna
ICs - chudat? it's tough because I didn't watch that era and would pick army/slug/wobbles/fly but chu has legacy
kirby - armada if we're talking about who I think has the best kirby. Triple R on results maybe?
samus - plup? hugs? duck? wes? I would give it to plup but I think hugs would be a more consistent answer. solo main, second at evo, top 8 at genesis 5, did it the longest, solo and the highest supermajor peak
zelda - for me it's between plup who won those armada and hbox sets with the zelda kick, although as a sheik, and drephen who actively used zelda in matches (look at his set vs army at genesis). honourable mention the lake
sheik - this is tough, but I would give it to jmook because he solo mains in the hardest era
link - aklo
young link - armada (axe never quite pulled it off, almost at ssc 2017)
pichu - I dunno. mew2king?
pikachu - axe
puff - hbox
mewtwo - leffen (sorry taj but leffen at pxb was imo the most impressive mewtwo run in the history of the game)
g&w - qerb? n0ne has a g&w that I think would beat qerb (and maybe most of the gods would) but qerb gets results
marth - zain
roy - zain (sorry NEO but zain did the unthinkable in a way harder era)
so zain, mango, leffen, armada are the ones with 2 characters on this list, almost plup too but I think I'm going with hugs
or maybe even a top 3 for like 10 relevant characters
@@AlexRoseGames Makes sense. Zain and Leffen would be my picks as well
If I did that I would do one for solomains and one for multi character mains, yeah mangos the goat Falco but he also needed/needs fox
Beginning of the video: "If they got 17th all the time it's gon matter"
Who they chose as the GOAT: Mango who has gotten 17th at HTC Throwdown and has missed top eight 12 different times.
Meanwhile Armada has never placed below 5th.
Numbers don't lie. Armada is the GOAT.
If only Armada did not retired
Yeah they give mang0 a big pass on things like lows, inconsistency, and h2hs, while they use those same points against other players. Once they have their mind made up it's just about twisting things to fit with what they had decided already.
@@Izquierdaso annoying lol
Armada was the most consistent player to ever play probably besides like Ken during his peak. But at what point does being out of the game for 6 years start to matter in a much more difficult era where like 10 people can legit win a super major. Mang0's 2020-2022 put him over the edge IMO and the opinion of many because it's a way harder field right now. Also, people seem to forget Mang0 didn't arguably have the highest peak in the game's history from 2008-2010 while Armada was also playing.
Since the pyramid is supposed to be about peak and not longevity, it seems like Armada has the best case for GOAT, for being dominant while he played
Armada played in the early days when mango and m2k were way better. Why is everyone forgetting this. Same arguement is used saying Michael Jordan only played 6 seasons when he really played 13 or whatever.
@@MRkriegs They were way better? Dude Armada's PEACH took mang0's puff to game 5 at like genesis 1...Armada didn't have as much experience but it's pretty hard to argue there was much of a gap once Armada was active lol.
And you're talking about the difference of 10 years vs like 8 seemingly? Not 6 vs 13 lol.
@@Masaru_kun Mango was better in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010. Armadas first two times he played in the USA in 2009 and 2010 Mango won both those majors and he has some very bad loses at Pound4 (mango has even worse loses, sandbagging many events, if you want to doc mango for that you can, he still sandbags literally right now playing doc in 2023 etc). Sandbagged with mario and falcon (SDing vs wobbles) at Apex 2010 when he was the best player in the world even though he won doubles with Lucky. Mango was the best player in the world or second to M2K at this time period. AFTER that Armada started to win majors and make a name for himself. Mango won: Pound 3 and Pound 4, Revival of Melee, and Genesis. The majority of tournaments he was not winning during this time and then after he is playing falcon, mario, link, marth. I bet if you go on Armadas stream and ask him about this he will agree mango was better than him 2007-2010. Then if you look at doubles Mango got first or second at like every major. Mango 2007-2010. Armada 2011-2012. Mango 2013-2014. Armada 2015-2018.
@@MRkriegs yeah i agree mang0 was the best before armada took the crown
For me, Armada has to be the GOAT if we're valuing peaks over longevity. I've been watching Melee for 15 years, and the way that Armada DOMINATED is still unparalleled imo. When he was at the top of his game, every tournament felt like a foregone conclusion, and I can't say the same for Mang0 or Hbox's peaks.
Basically with Mang0/Hbox, at their peaks it felt like they were probably going to win any tournament they went to. With Armada, I KNEW he was going to win every tournament he went to. I even got bored spectating during the Armada era since the tourneys always ended the same way, to the point where I stopped tuning in to a few of them.
Peaks or consistency, Armada is clearly the GOAT. The guy missed top 8 like 1 time in his entire career and you can count on one hand the number of times he lost to a non-god who wasn't Leffen or Plup. The only drawback for Armada is longevity, but even that's a ridiculous argument to make because no one has matched Armada's achievements, even when given a longer career to try and do so.
@@purpleplusgold sorry, I meant to write 'longevity' in my comment. Armada was incredibly consistent, yes
@@purpleplusgold11 years as a top 3 player isnt even short lol.
@@purpleplusgold I don't think Armada has ever missed a top 8 since 2009 when he attended Genesis
@@MrHebee1I believe there is a stat regarding Armada never getting worse than 5th @ any tournament he ever attended, which is just a mind-boggling statistic.
Solid pyramid, but I think westballs deserved a spot. I can still play back that one combo on leffen in my head like I was watching the clip. 🍿
That was legit so good but he was never that hot again and even in the same tournament gave it up on the runback
Yeah I was surprised they didn’t give it to him when they talked about top 8s and gave it to shroomed. Westballz has a better peak than they were giving him credit for. And stylish as hell.
Westballz is the kyrie Irving of melee
@@Dylxan327 Am I wrong or was he super close to beating Armada at some point ? He was the definition of "cracked"
yeah I would have West over a lot of the lads in Tier 5, 2015 - 2017 West was a different beast
@@melikmourali2072 i feel like a couple people have gotten the "almost beat Armada" treatment but are still like 0-15 against him. Beating Armada is such a big deal for lower tier players that if West ever did, I feel like they couldve given him tier 4 just for that.
In terms of head to head stats AND stats in general against the field, it's Armada > Hungrybox > Mang0. Armada's gotta be my GOAT.
That's my order too although I could see an argument for Mang0 > Hbox given their direct h2h but Armada is the GOAT. That's just set in stone.
I think Mango is the goat, but if you’re making a list with peaks > longevity, Armada is easily the goat, and Hbox might be ahead of him too. There isn’t a long amount of time where Mango was easily the top dog since 2014
I really enjoyed this discussion! The wisdom that Toph and HMW have for the game is a treat. Respect your elders!
Personal gripe but I don’t think characters should matter in GOAT conversations. For influence it makes sense, but in terms of the Greatest it should be about who puts points on the board, not how they looked while doing it.
Your style is definitely important. Style determines how entertaining you are to the masses.
I think characters are important. I think Mang is the GOAT but Armada got to the top with PEACH LMAO, Mang0 did it with the two best characters in the game
@@TheBeggies95 to be fair, as someone who thinks on paper Armada has to be the GOAT, playing peach is a large part of his consistency. peach is a tank, you have to just outplay her constantly. she isn't a glass cannon like floaties. she doesn't just get chaingrabbed to death and randomly lose, she didn't get wobbled, she rarely got gimped in armada's hands. she didn't have to worry about missing ledgedashes or side b-ing off stage. it's very impressive that armada got to the top with peach and no one else did, but the fact that he was so dominant was because he was playing a character who is much harder to flub with
@@AlexRoseGames I'll say the opposite: Peach wasn't a large part of his consistency. Armada during his prime spent lots of time perfecting his inputs to where his pefect shields and float cancels were machine-like. I don't know of any reason he'd be less consistent piloting, say Fox, than anyone else using that character. In fact, he did end up using Fox and pulled out some incredible wins against the very best players.
@@Vextos 'entertaining' is subjective. I could claim that Moky is the GOAT because he's the most entertaining player and I wouldn't be wrong.
Armada is the GOAT. Melee can be broken down into pre-Armada era, Armada era, and post-Armada era. There has never been a bigger boogeyman to beat than Armada. Also the fact that he traveled from his home country to dominate consistently on an international stage adds to his legacy. When Armada played the game, he played in a highly competitive era and had absolutely nobody to learn his Peach from.
You can literally count the people on your fingers who beat him
I think 2018 and 2019 are basically the same era even tho Armada and M2K both stopped playing in that era. They were both the HBox show ft. Leffen.
And that's exactly Toph's argument for Mango -- Mango is top pre-Armada, top post-Armada, and 2nd or so during Armada era.
@@attention_shoppingMang0 was never the 2nd best during Armada's era. That was Hbox.
2014 m8
Kinda bummed about Wizzy getting so slept on even without the recency bias of this past week but.. the only modern Falcon to do it at that peak in one of the hardest eras has to have some merit
He fits well in tier 4 imo. That tier is stacked, and tier 3 have all been the best player for at least a couple months.
Tier 4 is a perfect place for him
Hes tier 4, what u mean
If wizzy has much of a career left in him, I have no doubt he will make that tier 2 spot
Given the rules of this video I have no choice but to vote Armada as goat.
Armada has the obvious better peak and consistency but mango has the obvious longevity. I still vote armada because his peak is clearly the most dominant and perfect.
The game changed is one of the criteria also
He literally lost to Swedishdelight and announced his retirement weeks after.
While he does have the best melee resume of all time, all he would've had to do to keep it would've been partial attendence.
Thing is : He completely quit, and not long after that people started getting super good, super fast due to netplay.
He would definitely be the #1 of all time if he kept competing, but at this point mang0's record over three decades is unprecedented and completely unmatched.
Now all we can do with Adam are stipulations, and it's a damn shame because he was amazing to watch and I'd love to see him against the new top dogs.
Tl;dr Can't get burned if you don't take risks.
@@Infading how long would you say he woulda had to compete to be goated? cause arguably if armada started and ended at the exact same time as mango I lowkey think itd still be armada. like mangos career is def impressive, but if melee ended in 2015 mango wouldnt have been goated. Armada just seems like the better player between the two, mango just has longevity which is def impressive dont get me wrong, but he hasnt been consistent;y ranked 1 in like idek. Also im p sure armada got burnt out from winning too much. Mango got the dog in him but mango also loses quite a lot
@@Infading this is pretty much where i was at. in 2018, i feel like EVERYONE agreed Armada was the GOAT, it would've been a bit odd to suggest otherwise. but i feel like a lot of people categorically denying mang0 an argument both don't really appreciate the history of the game, how dominant he was (people would've unanimously regarded him the GOAT at the start of 2015), and how far the game has come since Armada retired.
@@Infading he lost one bo3 to a top 20 player and you guys are like "ooooh he's losing it, he's losing it!". mango loses to sheiks like Spark and Fizzwiggle and you call him the goat. make it make sense. armada wanted to retire for a long time. he had a winning record against EVERYONE
in his final year, he 6-1'd hbox, the dude everyone was scared of. he stuck around to show "no actually, hbox is not the goat, I am the goat". mango wasn't even in the conversation. then mango continues to play for a few extra years in which he is not the top player, zain is the top player, and you think that makes mango the goat now? mango wins one cool summit and he is the goat? how come mango didn't win summit when they were both playing? armada won 4 and came second twice when they were both present. then armada leaves and mango finally wins summit, "wow, goated!!!"
>didn't take risks
He played from 2007 to 2018. was a decade not long enough time for mango to beat armada? and it wasn't like their record was closing. in their final exhibition bo7 match at evo, mango got 4-1'd. since genesis 1, armada only lost to 9 players. his only losses outside the top 6 were bo3 and one was on the wrong damage ratio. he had a winning record over every. single. player
armada played for fewer years and yet still has more #1 end of year finishes and more #1 tournaments than mango. maybe once mango actually catches up to armada's records despite having years of extra play to do so he can have a place in the conversation. how can you play for more years, STILL not even catch up to his record and then say you're the goat?
Don’t know how they can not put Armada as goat if they’re saying they take peak over longevity. Dude was #1 in power rankings for 2 years straight, I remember he won so much melee was becoming slightly boring for me cuz the outcome was always the same. I think Mango gets preferential treatment cuz of his style of play (he’s my favorite player too) and how he’s a fan favorite but Armada was just a pillar of consistency.
Mang0 was also #1 for 2 years straight in 2013-2014 and didn't lose a tournament at all from Pound 3 in 2008 to some tourney in 2010 sandbagging. Ya gotta look at the whole picture
@@oldtownscouts3712I guess Kage and the 2nd iteration of RoM just doesn't exist apparently.
Mang0 has had the biggest influence on Melee, but Armada is undoubtedly the most dominant player to ever play the game. Armada's the GOAT.
This is about as close as anyone has ever come to Mang0's testies while swallowing his shaft. And i expected this from Toph, but pretty surprised at HMW.
to be fair, if you are a professional melee player or commentator at this point, you have to support mango for GOAT regardless of whether it's true. because if they were to say that armada is the GOAT still, it would delegitimise this era of melee. the players want mango to be the goat so that they can make the argument "well I beat the goat so I'm the goat now", and the commentators want mango to be the goat so melee has life
@AlexRoseGames declaring someone The Goat regardless of whether it's true would delegitimise any Era of Melee
@lorenzogonzales4297 you're surprised that HMW, the man on camera screaming for mang0 to give someone the corporation 13 years ago wouldnr give that same person goat status for still having the balls to compete?
armada the goat. you literally said peak>longevity at the start of the video. a cleaner resume is probably better than mastery of many characters. anyways good points on all players. still respect your opinions.
Even though I love Mang0 I wouldn't even give mastery of multiple characters to him over Armada. Mang0 nation always spouts about Mang0 being the best with three different characters but it's like people forgot Armada dominated with Peach, Fox, AND Young Link. He even busted out the Sheik and beat Lucky to win Heir 2.
Very nice to see a lot of people here pointing out how Toph and HMW basically threw away their formula and gave the title to Mang0 anyway. Mang0 is the flashiest, but he ain't the best. Armada retired 5 years ago and Mang0 hasn't gotten #1 in that period. Armada was ranked #1 4 DIFFERENT TIMES since the last time Mang0 was #1 in Melee. Numbers don't lie. We forget how different Armada was from the rest.
Mang0 now is miles above Armada and Hungrybox. They can’t even compete anymore. Mang0 is STILL going to this day. Has an always will be top 3 player for basically ever. Hes the physical embodiment of melee. He’s undoubtably the goat.
@xSkwintz i bet them mang0 testies taste wonderful. Nobody has ever been as dominant as Armada.
@@xSkwintzHBox who hasn’t missed a top 8 at an in person event in like 3 years while Mango has like a dozen times in that timeframe, and made more major GFs last year than Mango did can’t compete anymore? Okay
Man I just can't ignore the numbers for armada it was and always will be extremely clear to me that armada was second to none.
People just fucking love Mang0 for some reason. If you look at it objectively, it's hard to rate Mang0 higher unless you REALLY value longevity.
Mang0 wins the popularity contest.
Wtf you think none’s the goat?
@@wizardswine4621I think the only argument in Mango's favor is the slippi era. The Mango Zain Tier was dominant and Summit 11 was a victory that will stand the test of time. To still win in that era is more than just longevity. On the other hand he was still second to Zain imo... Yeah Armada is still the goat
@@hiX0N He's right
@@nahometesfay1112Hate to undermine Zain and Mang0's achievements in the covid era but no one actually played the game super seriously during that time and Zain was a lot less dominant than he was during covid.
M2K in tier 3 is insane
Honestly I feel like him and ken deserve tier 2 but being forced to pick only 3 is rough.
@@TehWhiteTiger crazy they have Zain up there imo, but if they’re really valuing peak over longevity that much I guess I can get behind it
Every goats career started by beating mew2king
if peak>longevity shouldn't cody and jmook be like tier 2? also armada is 100% the goat if peak>longevity.
lol
If by peak you mean results, then it has to be ken. Bro was basically undefeated for 2+ years
@@its_hokori but competition in eras
Mang0 didn’t lose a tournament in 22 months back in the 2000s
No player has ever gone unbeaten for that long in any era of melee
Over PP? Over Ken? Over leff? Over zain? What we doing here
The real goat is whoever had to crop out all of those headshots lol
😂😂😂😂 best comment ever
We all know objectively speaking Armada is the goat, but mango is our goat.
The whole Armada fell apart narrative is so bs because Armada has more winners into winning an entire major than ever falling into losers. He has over double the amount of 1st places than 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th combined. 80/115. He's only entered top 8 through losers once (not Heir II) and he had one of the longest losers run ever. He only lost once to a player outside top 6 so he obviously had the longest losers run into a finals ever beating Zain, Plup, all the active Gods, S2J, and Gahtzu. He's never fallen apart.
Just some stats that Armada never fell apart: not even once
If you count secondaries like Mang0's scorp run, than heir II: the throne, he would have the longest losers run
For 8 years only 6 people took a set off him and he has a 66% winrate on them.
Outside of silentspectre and captain jack ppl he played only once, (silentspectre infamous 0.9) he has a winning record on every player he's ever played.
12 supermajor wins in 7 years, the rate is a statistical anomaly.
Out of the viable 12-13, He's only lost to 5 characters ever, sheik 3 times, marth 7 times, solo falco twice. Fox puff is the rest. Falcon, Yoshi, Peach, Icies, Samus never.
from Jan 2019 to July 2013 he was in a finals every major/supermajor he attended.
July 2016 to June 2017, just weeks before Armada was in grands for a straight year.
3 top 3 streaks ever are 26, 24, 22 in a row. next closet is hbox with 15 in a much smaller time period.
He's been in grands in the 5 largest tournaments by entrants of all time, winning 3 of 5
Only ever lost to 10 individuals, 3 being his first year. 1 being his one and only upset, and only losing to 6 players in 8 year from Pound 5 until broken at Evo 2018.
During the era of the five gods, all the gods were upset except Armada who kept the 5 gods streak alive numerous times.
Let me say it again: He's never fallen apart. He's only entered top 8 through losers once and he had one of the longest losers runs ever. (Not including Heir II since it was all secondaries but if included like Mang's scorp runs that's the longest losers run to a win in a tournament that exceeds 300 entrants.)
bro is the biggest armada fan lol
@@ethangoodman2870 easily, anything for the sexy swede.
but on a real note, coming from basketball don't even know why there is even a goat debate
This is insane how is it even a debate. Armada the goat 🐐
Completely agree. Mang0 is the protagonist, the champion, but armada is simply in a class of his own when it comes to who was the best. Nobody was ever more dominant than he was. He demonstrated his consistency and his mastery time and time again. I’m with you guys, I don’t really see how it’s debatable that he’s the greatest melee player to ever do it.
This is basically Jordan vs Bron. Bron and Jordan both have the huge peaks but one has won more often than the other and the other has played at a higher level longer. I think either is a good answer but if you say Mango you have to at least have Hbox in the discussion
Jordan = Armada
LeBron = Mango
Kareem = Hbox
Mikan or Wilt = Ken
this is the long form melee content we all dream about! keep toph and waff & make more please !
The editing on this video is awesome. Thanks for highlighting the players being talked about at the time.
How Zain is in Armada and Hbox tier .... No way
I would put Zain in a tier below alongside M2K, Ken and maybe Leffen. Imo Mango, Armada and Hbox are definitely the top 3,
that's how the pyramid works. you MUST put 3 players in that tier. for them, zain was 4th
@@AlphaHatsuseno and to be fair, if you have to put someone there, it has to be zain. zain is the only one of the new bunch who is in the question. if it weren't for covid messy rankings, zain would have 3 #1 finishes, that's on par with mango already. if zain was dominant for 3 more years there would definitely be an argument that he is the goat. whereas ken and m2k had their chances and couldn't keep up, zain is the only one who can stand on that platform
M2K not in 2 is an injustice to me. Dude's made solo runs with 3 different characters. He was performing and being #1 in two different games. Most recent major was summit in 2018 so he for sure has longevity. Like with jmook, zain needs more time imo to be considered a tier 2. All in all I respect y'alls decisions they're tough ones to make.
#2 is GOAT candidates. mango, hbox, armada all have a non laughable argument to be the goat. M2K doesn't. zain also doesn't, I agree there, but.. zain is #1 right now and has been for several years. give it a few more years and you could argue zain is the goat. but you could never argue m2k is the goat, because m2k will never be #1 again
I feel like watching Armada at his peak was like watching this platonic ideal of a competitor.
Watching Mango play at his peak feels like it pushes the limits of how far this game can go when you dissect and push past what "perfect" is at the time.
That's the difference to me personally.
Great way of putting it. Mango has that X factor that pushes past perfect
@@olivegames7987o Mang0 is Goku and Armada is Superman
EDIT: Hbox is the kryptonite LMAO
This is exactly what makes them so hard to compare. I can see the argument for either, but it's crazy how different their legacies and the way they've been positioned throughout their careers are, and they're both contenders for GOAT. I think that's part of what makes melee so cool.
I think if you have the jxmmy rule of peak over longevity then you have to have armarda #1
He never missed a top 8 his whole career and only got 5th twice , has a winning h2h to everyone he played more than twice. He didn't have losers runs because he rarely went to losers.
Without that rule i think it can be any of the clear top 3 as the stats from longevity are crazy like mango and hbox winning in 3 decades.
i see your point, if you have that rule then i guess that's only fair. though tbh i dont think you need to have that rule. i think you have to factor longevity in, i think it's dishonest not to
@@gwen6622it's not dishonest, because the guy from the NBA channel values different things. The only way it's dishonest is if you favor longevity more and you don't agree with someone else's viewpoint. They just shouldn't have quoted that if it was going to be based on their value system for the GOAT.
I am sorry, but I cant really see either jmook or cody in tier 3 yet. I think in one more year or two absolutely, but I think not right now. I also thinking putting Zain in the same tier as Armada and Hbox is wild when Zain was most dominate in the online era and the amount of majors he has participated in and successfully won is way less than both those two and even m2k. I can see the arguement if he continues to perform like this in a year or two longer, but to put him T2 is wilddddd.
Honestly I agree with both points. I think if we go in terms of longevity, Jmook and Cody need more time to solidify their place as one of the best. As for putting Zain above Ken... I would switch it around. Ken's dominance in his era was crazy. Yes he did lose to some people, but I'm a time where you did not know who was amazing and mediocre... That's something.
Tbf he is one very few people to be ranked number one end of year, and he did it in the hardest era
And also he has been a major winning player since 2018
What happened to the whole peak>longevity?
I don't think you can compare Armadas and Mangos peak. That's like comparing Zero winning 50+ tournaments in a row to a tweek or leo.
Peak Skill Mango > Peak Skill Armada
Peak Dominance Ken > Peak Dominance Mango > Peak Dominance Armada
Also Peak Skill Hungrybox > Peak Skill Armada
and Peak Skill Leffen > Peak Skill Armada
Can we stop calling peak when they were most dominant, before competition caught up, with no regard to context of player base except for the time before my favorite player started dominating
@@jeremyhillson9210 it's a pity this peak skill mango never showed up. his falco only ever won one set against armada in their entire 10 year history of playing. you'd think at some point his peak would decide to rear its head and win some sets
mango fans point to zain vs mango as an example of peak skill, a set in which zain completely flubs from nerves and sds multiple times. meanwhile armada won 4 summits and came 2nd in too, all with mango present. mango's "peaks" were when he was losing and made a comeback. how is that a peak? armada wasn't losing. he didn't have losers runs, because he didn't lose
peak dominance mango > peak dominance armada? then how come armada still has the most #1 tournament finishes of every player, still has the most #1 end of year finishes of any player, and had a winning record over every player? that is called dominance
@@jeremyhillson9210 So why does Armada have a winning lifetime record against all those players you mentioned if his peak skill is inferior to the peak skill of those players?
@@AlexRoseGamesi think by peak skill he means purely how skillful a player they are, and the current skill level is so much higher than during armada's peak. It would be different if armada kept playing but Mango's current skill level is undeniably higher than armada's peak, and even armada self admitted that llodds peach is now better than his ever was
@@tabsmag When did Armada say that lloD's peach is better than his ever was? As a peach main, lloD's peach is def not better than Armada's lol.
How many years has Zain been “the best”
How many years was M2K “the best”
Now add another 10 years of top 5-10 level play and we are saying M2K is a tier beneath?
Zain years as the best are 20, 21, 22 m2ks best years were 07 and 08 Zain has more years as the best player in the world in a much more highly competitive era if you value longevity more I can see you putting m2k in tier 2 above Zain but let’s not pretend that Zain hasn’t done more in less time in a harder era which is worth it’s merits in the discussion
It boggles the mind how Mango has somehow passed Armada in the eyes of the community. It would be actually really funny if it wasn't so sad. Armada was head and shoulders the GOAT 5 years ago when he retired, but somehow Mango (who hasn't taken the #1 spot since 2014 and hasn't finished above 3rd since Armada retired) has jumped him because of "longevity". Might as well anoint Hugo the GOAT at that point lol
It’s so hilarious listening to people who put Mango as top all time acknowledging all the statistical reasons why Armada has a better case and then saying “yeah but I just feel like he’s better.” It’s crazy going back and watching Armada sets especially in like 2015 where the commentators are essentially saying “how is this guy so much better than everyone else” on mic and now somehow we’re having this discussion
He technically was ranked #1 in 2021 but if you ask me that rankings list was botched af. It was put together by Panda while they were still partnered with Nintendo so they didn't count any online tournaments that usec Slippi. If they had, Zain would have been the clear #1 and Mango would have been #2. But since they were pulling from an extremely small data set of offline tournies, they could make a case for Mango as #1 for winning Summit 11 and getting 2nd at Summit 12. Kinda bullshit but yeah, "officially" Mango still was #1 after Armada retired.
Mang0 still winning supermajors. Simple as that. Armada tapped out. Mang0 could've retired early after he beat Armada early on. Is he the goat then? Longevity matters for RECENT play. Hugo doesnt play anymore
@@rickmoranisstan Mango wasn't ranked #1 for 2021. There were no rankings for 2021, at least not any that were community backed and carry any weight.
@@lolmouf For Mango to have "tapped out" while he was ahead, he would have needed to tap out back in 2014. And it's not like Mango has been dominating since Armada retired. Hell, Hbox took first in the world back-to-back-to-back after Armada stepped down, Mango can't even finish above 3rd.
Mang0 crumpled in a ton of situations, I don't understand this narrative where Zain and Armada were emotional crumplers when Mang0 has DEFINITELY done so as well.
More clutch moments. In basketball terms people remember Kobe as a clutch player, even though he has missed the most game-winners ever. We remember the losers runs and game 5 wins
Mango has the X factor
simple people dont care to remember the amount of times mang0 crumpled and didnt even get top 8 massive come back stories stay in your head for a lot longer so that is what people think about
@@Bradyboy26Facts. Mang0 can crumble and get 13th at 6 supermajors in a row and his fans will just call it the "mang0" and as soon as he wins a single tournament from losers, he becomes the undisputed GOAT and the holiest man to touch a gamecube controller LMFAO.
Armada is the GOAT IMO. Mang0, Hbox, Zain are next tier bc they all are similar. Others are tier 3 and lower. You guys put Mang0 higher bc he is an influencer too.
Zain is def not in the same tier as Mang0 and Hbox.
@@coffeewithginseng3812 Why?
@@KuhEssen Because he's still new. Zain only became a top 5 player 3 years ago whereas Mang0 and Hbox have been there for over 10.
the c r i m s o n b l u r
Armada and Hungrybox both have better peaks and consistency than Mango. HMW and Toph are both biased towards Mango.
It depends what you mean because Armada was more dominant later, but peak skill mango is obviously ahead of peak skill armada and it’s not like hungrybox wasn’t eating before armada retired
Edit: consistency wise mango may be last place of all players lmao, nobody else could be a coin flip between winning a supermajor or losing before top 32 unless it’s leffen dqing
Nah man, not even a big Mang0 fan myself, but Armada left when he started to be tested, while Mang0 has not only reinvented himself in 4 distinct eras, he’s legitimately has arguments for being the best at some point in all of them (pre-god era, god era, slippi era, post-slippi era), and even if he wasn’t the best, he still was the one fighting toe to toe with the person to beat. Armada obliterated the scene in his time, but cracks started to show, Leffen figured him out, Plup was starting to give him problems, he was legit struggling with Hbox. So in many ways his dominance was starting to show cracks just before some of the Doc era players were making their first swings. I know what-if’s are not necessarily important in these kinds of discussions, but I have almost 0 doubt in my mind that people like Zain, Cody, Jmook and even Moky would figure out how to beat Armada. Had M2k retired just as Mang0 was rising and never come back again, would M2k be the Goat?
It's funny they even admit it in the video for a second
before going back to trying to make up a poshoc justification for the bias
@@Supertaldo916 "he was legit struggling with hbox", he 6-1'd hbox in the year he retired, he actually extended his retirement just so he could completely obliterate hbox and make his record unimpeachable since, if you recall, hbox was in the conversation for #1, not mango. mango was the thirdrunner. he stayed to cement his record, and he even coached other players like ibdw how to beat hbox which is still shaking hbox today, and now you're trying to pretend like hbox was winning. it's just completely false
his last two sets with plup he 3-0'd him. lefffen is the only one who was starting to be up on him but who cares? struggling with leffen is one thing, it's not exactly like losing to fizzwiggle is it? let's talk about who's really struggling with hbox. since february 2010 hbox is up on mango 44-43. the only reason hbox has a losing record on mango is mango farmed him when he was a noob. in the past decade, hbox is up 40-36. past 5 years? hbox is up 18-11
The "Greatest" will always be different than the "Best", which will always be different from the "most Dominant"
Mang0 is, without question, the greatest ever player. His storyline runs would be unbelievable if someone wrote them. Stylistically, nobody comes close. He's aggressive, and brings tens of thousands of viewers to any tournament he plays in. He has brought this for almost 15 years. Nobody else comes close.
Armada is, almost without question, the most dominant player ever. His statistics are almost more breathtaking than Mang0's loser's runs. Most Melee fans know them, so I won't bother repeating them here. Only Hbox, M2K, or Ken come close in this category, and their "dominance" was over either far shorter periods of time than Armada's, or against much worse competition.
The "Best" will always be a shifting target, since the game constantly develops and improves. Someone not playing today could eventually become the best-of-all-time.
it's just semantics. I think mango is the coolest, flashiest, most interesting, highest longevity, most unique tournament player of all time. (I also think plup, axe and m2k are up there with mango for who is the actual best at the game super smash bros melee, all modes, all rulesets, all characters)
but I don't think he can be the "greatest" when there's a player he had nearly a decade to beat and had a losing record which wasn't getting better as time went on. and that player had a winning record over everyone, even thanos era hbox. that player even coached ibdw on how to beat hbox which is how all the foxes eventually learnt that matchup that for 2 years seemed liked the game was cracked. despite playing for fewer years, he had more years at #1
it isn't like comparing two players who played in different eras like trying to compare peak zain to peak armada, armada played alongside mango at his peak. how many summits did they go to together (where the format has much less variance because the players play much more games), how many did mango win?
it's also worth noting mango's falco only ever beat armada once in his entire career
armada proved over and over that he was the greatest player in the game in tournament format. you can count on two hands the players who EVER took a set from him. he beat everyone. the only thing mango has above that is "yeah but mango plays cool". "yeah but mango has losers runs" (armada only ever twice entered top 8 from losers in his career). and "yeah but mango played longer". and sure, mango played longer. but who is the best player now? Zain. not mango. so how does continuing to not be the best in the 2020s magically retcon you into being the best of all time? if he was #1 then I would agree but the longer he plays, the more hbox is catching up on him. since 2010 hbox has a winning record on mango not vice versa
Armada’s Peak was pretty insane.
Mango was less consistent overall, but peaked more than once tho, proving to be worthy in every metagame development, all while becoming a father in late 2013, and having a 21-29 set record vs Armada itself, losing badly to him mostly in 2017. 🤷♂️
Amazing implementation. It's wild how well this works with melee as opposed to most other esports because of the longevity
Mew2king absolutely 1000% HAS to be in Tier 2, not Tier 3. No discussion. Zain isn't higher than him all-time yet.
M2K done dirty, ppl forget how scary he was for so long... Zain and Leff can't even compare yet. Tier 2 should be a clean cut hbox/armada/m2k, recentcy bias is strong.
I agree, switch Zain and m2k (for now-we'll see what the future holds for Zain).
@@monarchbitterfly4273 Yea, I fully expect Zain to have a real shot at moving past M2K long term if he can remain on top through meta shifts, that's the true test
leffen has competed for long enough to say.. unless he switched something up he is not in the goat debate. Zain has been #1 3 years in a row, if he keeps it up 2+ more years he is in the conversation. so if the pyramid has to have a tier it's fair to put zain there. but m2k is definitely not on that tier and will not be. he is just not in the conversation for goat, he's simply not. he is if you are talking smash as a series, across multiple games, but not in melee
@@AlexRoseGames Zain has not been #1 for 3 years in a row, the only year he ended ranked 1 was 2022 which was not far above Mango/Amsa. Compared to the rest of the people in the goat discussion this is a small amount of time, each of the rest has had much more time at the top. Leffen has had a longer run in the top 8 but could never claim #1, but he spent the longest outside of the 3 gods in the top 8 consistently than any other player (Zain included) often reaching up to 2-3. Again Zain is a beast, but 1 year as the #1 player isn't enough consistency yet to make any real claim. He is a new factor since the pandemic which also really limits the scope of his reign on top.
@@osimate that's only because 2020 was not ranked. zain was very clearly #1 in 2020 and no player would deny that, even mango has said it and he was the only one who could make an argument. 2021 was pretty shambolic and imo no one entered enough to even deserve a rank. he won SCL and swt, but bustered with 2nd and 3rd at summit so it's hard to make an argument for who was better, but okay I'll give you that it shouldn't count for zain. but definitely he's had 2020 on top, 2022 on top, and 2021 is it contentious between him, mango and ibdw
Strong WC bias huh? Haha
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Personally I can’t see it. The way you could look at Mang0 vs Armada heading into a tournament is not the same. Armada looks like a rock and the rare times he lost outside of a handful a people you were like “Yeah that person could be winning majors in a year+”
But beating mang0 was commonly a “oh so mang0 (insert excuse here)”
One embodies a champion and the other a really hype gamble. Everyone likes the high, but the feelings get really dim when you see how well PPMD was doing in 2014, and I cannot think of a dominant time for mang0 unless we’re talking pre-2011.
I don’t pity Mang0 or anything like that, he’s done a lot for the game including his big wins. It’s also hard to give mang0 credit for a GOAT argument Post-armada retirement, because like I said before… when did you feel going into 2019+ that mang0 could dominate for even 6 months let alone a year.
He’s in this conversation for a reason but I can’t disrespect Armadas hustle and legacy. His desire to win was unmatched and palpable.
How is mang0 ranked #1 "pretty recently"?
He was ranked in the top tier of 2021
he was seeded first i forget when i think 2022
@@vanillafella4893 Right, I thought they were talking about actual rankings. Last time was 2014 if I'm not mistaken.
@@doppspops2373 2021 wasn't ranked
@@doppspops2373 calling him the top 2021 by ignoring the online results is pretty fraudulent. zain was the best player of 2021 and we all know it
As an Argentinian, and just a football fan, The melee goat discussion feels like the discussion over who’s better, Messi or Maradona, for the sake of peace (and not having to listen to angry fans), I won’t say who is who, but I don’t think is too hard to know.
i'm totally up on n0ne cus he's also besides results so relevant to the meta today, with the way he implemented cc
Putting Mang0 on top is basically not using the formula imo
Ur a real one for saying this
every other sport that has an armada, they’re unarguably the goat. waff said in the video that mango is the lebron of melee. but MJ is the goat, just like armada is the goat. This is a competitive game, so who has the most dubs? it’s armada. why are we still talking about this?
Mang0’s career is like twice the length of Armada’s. His peaks get overshadowed but his losses, but theyre just as good as Adam’s.
@@verbosedMJ is not unarguably the GOAT, the Lebron argument is pretty topical especially with the scoring record.
Wilt Chamberlain is the GOAT of basketball. They literally had to change the rulebooks to slow him down.
Mang0 did well before Armada arrived, during Armada's period of dominance, and after Armada left. That's why I ultimately have Mang0 as #1.
But as Toph said, you can't be mad at all for someone to pick Armada or HBox, they've erned that Goat status for sure.
Loved JxmyHighroller's video so this was dope to see! My only big disagreement is Zain in Tier 2 over Ken and Mew2King. I don't feel like Zain has been as dominant or influential as either of those two in their prime. In another couple of years I think Zain will inevitably get there, but he has to win more first imo.
Bruh, you forget how absolutely dominant Zain was during the online era, which people do not put enough respect on. That is skill vs skill without the crowd without the pressure, and Zain was 3 to 1 beating Mango, who was also giving it to everybody. Zain, in a similar fashion to Hbox, literal caused an existential crisis for Fox mains until Mango did it, and even now is still legitimately in contention for 1st in this open era
From what I understand, Most of the top players don’t even count their online era, which is why a lot of people ignore it.
@adamquenano8563 I bet you they don't because most of them were losing to midhigh level people like Aklo and Gahtzu. I do get there were some differences but my god it was almost never close. Zain was nearly in an Hbox level tier where people couldn't beat him, except Mango was there and did, hence their Mango Zain tier
@adamquenano8563 like, Hbox absolutely wouldn't and honestly shouldn't count the online era, because he was going through some shit, but I'd apply the same logic to literally any Tourney Cody's gone to in the last couple months lol
@@adamquenano8563 online should def count cause all it allowed was for people to target zain. It allowed new shieks to come up and people to practice marth religiously. There was also no alternative and in that peculiar time zain dominated. He deserves all the credit for 2020/2021.
so basically what you guys are saying is Lebron > Jordan
I think Captain Jack deserved to be there. Only major winning player absent, and he wasn’t even mentioned.
He was like top 3 in the world in the beginning of it all, and was the consensus top player of an extremely strong region.
If Japan wasn’t so isolated, he’d be regarded at least in the same light as Isai.
I think it’s good to see Zain and mango actually getting recognized for their dominance in 2020-2021. People often just gloss over that time as if it didn’t count for anything, but mango and Zain were clear and above everyone else that played in those years.
What dominance from Mang0? He entered like 4 tournaments. Its vastly overrated.
@@ray_9211Mang0 Zain tier
@@TheBeggies95 Doesn't prove anything. During the Covid era of 2020, he entered a total of 8 tourneys, in which 4 of those where the Slippi Champions League, a tourney that can't even be called one as it had like 3 matches per week. The amount of Major-worthy tournaments during the CoVid era was at an all time high, entering like 4 of those is a bit... yea.
Now we jump to 2021, a year that is even more bizarre for Mang0. Calling this year "dominant" is, frankly, ignorant. Mang0 entered a total of 7 tournaments, which also includes 4 weeks of the SCL (don't think i need to go in-depth again why these "tournaments" are so controversial for any sort of ranking"). I agree that his results were really good in the tourneys he entered, but it doesn't deny the fact that he barely had results, compared to players who actually played actively during the Covid era.
Now, if you i mention Mang0, i also have to mention Zain, as he also didn't enter a whole lot of tournaments. Zain gets a little bit of a benefit due to winning almost everything he entered in 2020, when he played Marth, but Zain also did not enter a lot, which needs to be addressed. That is EXACTLY why the Covid era is so controversial, so it shouldn't put certain players on a pedestal for entering almost nothing, and definitely shouldn't be weighed the same as 1 year offline dominance = 1 year online dominance with barely entering tournament.
@@ray_9211 mango literally skipped like half of 2021 to hold onto his record lol, zain was the best player of 2021
@@AlexRoseGames And the PG tier ranking still put Mang0 as #1 for that year lol. The melee community will find every opportunity to say that Mang0 is the best even though he hasn't been the actual best since 2014 which was 9 years ago lmfao.
Aren't you both from socal?? I wonder who you're going to pick as the goat 🧐
its just so hard for me to imagine that armada would've faltered and started losing to more people if he continued playing up to 2023. i mean yeah he would've lost to zain, jmook, and ibdw, but like, those are obviously not bad losses, and mango and hbox have both also lost to those guys so it evens out. losing to those guys is the modern day version of losing to ppmd and m2k--its a respectable loss.
and for the record i dont think armada's peach wouldve been made irrelevant by the modern meta. Llod has shown that peach as a character actually does have what it takes to do well, even today
but yeah mango and armada are just fundamentally different when it comes to bad losses. like even before 2020 (before hbox lost to a bunch of randoms due probably in large part to reading chat in tournament if you ask me lol), even hbox had plenty of "bad losses" pre 2019, not as bad as mango, but still plenty. whereas in contrast armada never really did. again, it's just so hard for me to imagine that he'd falter in regards to bad losses even had he kept playing till now. he just DOESN'T lose to anyone whos not on or near his level
i think it's probably just down to personalities. mango is much more erratic as a person than armada is. as the cliche goes, mango probably has higher peaks, but way lower lows. armada doesn't really even _have_ low lows. when it comes to, like, an average level of "skill" across all time, armada easily takes it. his average is easily the best imo
“i don’t think jmook can win a tournament through losers..” COLLISION????
Armada also won a few (not as many as Mang0 or Hbox) coming from losers as well.
Said the same thing lmfao. He’s literally already won through losers.
The whole point of the pyramid as opposed to a list is that you are allowed to be flexible with the numbers of players in each tier to show that they are pretty equivalent. We are trying to avoid the problem of ranking someone a whole tier above someone else who is arguably very close, just because of arbitrary "only 3 can be in this tier".
For melee it feels like that means tier 1 should really include all three of Mango/Armada/HBox. Maybe you can debate Hbox falls down a tier, but even I as a Hbox hater dont think that is warranted.
Tier 2, I would probably have Ken, M2K, PPMD, Leffen, Zain
m2k gotta be tier 2 over Zain, did it for so long and his peak was WAY more dominant then Zain's
2007 mew2king might be the most overrated player of all time, also m2k has 0 (zero) supermajor wins in his 15~ish year career while zain has 3
@@yeah2646Supposedly FC Diamond was a super major, but no one counted it
@@yeah2646Damn thats true, i was expecting him to have more
DaJuan always does enough to qualify
I’m not gonna argue Hbox should’ve been number 1, but nobody ever points out that he was the man to beat for years in a losing character matchup. He is the sole reason anyone has ever argued that Puff beats Fox in the 5 gods and modern era, when Fox was cemented as the best character in the game. And similar things could be said about Jmook and definitely Amsa and Axe, solo maining characters nobody else has reached those highs with.
Honestly, very respectable list, almost like these dudes know what they're talkin about
Armada>Mango sorry, if you put Mango above Armada you are just a fan and think emotionally.
m2k's my goat. His level of dominance when he was at his peak results wise was different and his frame data contributions raised the level of the scene like nothing else.
Same. I was/am really compelled by M2K because, to me at least, there's something really special about the concept that someone who never thought of himself as naturally talented when he first started competing labbed the shit out of melee's meta so he could memorise everything that he didn't know intuitively. It's easy to sort of dismiss him when compared to only the other Gods & I get that different people value peaks/consistency differently, but ranking in the top ten from like 2006 to 2019 is incredibly impressive, especially in combination with his god awful mental game, being so constantly down on himself, losing a lot of important games because he couldn't mentally recover from 1 flub or a MU that he traditionally loses and suffering from depression on and off in a more general sense.
How he found the motivation to grind and grind despite it, placing that well for 13 years is , there's something really special about that and he should be proud. They're all sick players and they should be proud of their legacy, but M2K was a part of the Ken/PC Chris/Azen/Isai etc era and a lot of those guys just couldn't keep up when the meta started to develop, but my boy kept up for like a decade, what a goat.
m2k's 2007-2008 wasn't as dominant as hbox's 2017-2019 imo (and in a much harder era), and hbox also has much better records against everyone than m2k
What did M2k win…….? I’ll wait
i love mang as much as the next guy but the meat riding is absolutely insane
Good list, though I think Lucky should still be in Tier 5 even if his recent results don't look as good as they used to. Here are some other players who have a good argument for the 5th tier: lloD, CaptainJack, Jman, Colbol, Fly Amanita
Add duck to that list. People forget he had sets over leffen, hbox, and I think zain as well
Fly is a timeless classic of a player dude. I don't think you can make up an icies player like him (besides SluG maybe)
@@4xArcskix5Wobbles too
Toph not throwing out all logic and reason to d!cksuck mango challenge: IMPOSSIBLE
Armada/Mang0/HBox could all be #1 depending on what you value, agreed.
Zain is the closest to entering the conversation.
ChuDat is never respected enough in these discussions IMO.
IMO all GOAT discussions should start with each person's criteria to at least reduce inconsistency.
Mang0 has said for a long time that by the time he retires he wants to be the undisputed GOAT. Obviously "undisputed" in actuality is unrealistic, but I really wonder how close he can get to that goal. Crazy how long this game has lived and how much life it still has ahead of it (relative to video games, not sports).
I'll call Mang0 the GOAT if he gets rank 1 for at least two years with a 70% tournament win rate while placing no worse than 7th.
@@shorthopdoublelasers4168 Okay lmao.
COLBOL MENTIONED LETS GOO I LOVE HMW
Updated:
Mango: LBJ/ MJ (the Goat)
Armada: Tim Duncan (fundamentals and the cleanest win ratios around)
Ken: Bill Russell (old school dominance)
H-Box: Shaq (dude was winning so hard people wanted to change the rules)
PPMD: Magic (short flashy career)
Leffen: Kawhi (originally Kobe but Leffen Visa issues and Kawhi injuries line up too good)
M2K: Kareem? (Sky hook kinda a chain grab idk)
Added:
Zain: Steph: (pivot tipper is the splash 3 and Mang0 vs Zain is peak Cavs vs Warriors)
Ken:George Mikan (he just knew how to counter and dash dance)
To get really nerdy:
Mango is LBJ with one of MJs perfect 3peats
Armada is the other MJ 3peat with Wilt Chamberlain stats
Ken is Bill Russell + Wilt Chamberlain
Isai is Bill Walton - high peak and largely a what-if career, maybe a bit of Jerry West being the best "loser"
HBox is prototypical Tim Duncan, insane peak, sustained excellence and darkhorse GOAT argument among the analytics community
Leffen is imo Kawhi Leonard, peaks at the highest level but hindered by injuries/visa issues lol. Talented enough to hang with the best, but not quite the resume
Mango isn’t LBJ some whiney baby who chokes in big moments losing more finals than winning. He’s MJ. Zain is more like LBJ
@@daxmoney5011deep cut moment, ChuDat would be my George Mikan
@@suexf786I like this better for Mango 100 percent, I had H-Box more as Shaq because of the laker 3 peat being similar to his era at number 1, hack a Shaq and fox camping. I do like the Duncan analogy tho, and Leffen in hindsight is peak Kawhi 😂
Controversial opinion, I think Hbox is the GOAT because of something that almost never gets discussed. Hbox competed for all of his career before late 2015 as a chemical engineering student at university of florida and then as a full time professional chemical engineer. Around a year after he switched to full time melee he started his largest period of dominance which really only ended with covid. When covid rolled around he largely streamed ultimate online and never really gave that up through to the current day, which lines up with the time his results have dipped. He also had to deal with more hate than arguably any other player in the scene for pretty much his entire career up until the crab incident made the community reconsider. Hbox had a fuck ton of extenuating factors to fight against and while we can't really say what the results would've been without them, I think you have to take those into account to at least some extent. He's so close to the top regardless that I think that extra fighting he had to do just pushes him over Mang0 and Armada. I could see a similar argument for Armada spending all of his career having to fly from Europe to compete in NA tournaments though.
I don't think external factors actually matter when it comes to the GOAT debate in sports typically.
@@SeriousStriker True, but in most sports that people have the GOAT conversation about (i.e. basketball, football, baseball, soccer, hockey) this kind of stuff isn't a factor. If you make it to the big stage then you make enough to do it full time. Plus, the only reason I do take it into account here is because it's so close between Hbox, Mang0, and Armada. I would not say it's definite, I'm just trying to bring light to an underrepresented narrative that combats the general "hbox for sure #3" opinion I feel like I see generally. It's one that I find persuasive but I understand if someone wants to stick with an "only results" approach, and it's not like Mang0 and Armada were living life on easy street either.
Where's Abate?
It would be interesting to see a similar list but not limited to players - perhaps a "melee influencer" pyramid, where commentators, TOs, people like Fizzi, Unclepunch, Anther, or content creators like Samox, AsumSaus, or Ptas are all ranked along players to see who has contributed the most to the game / community.
Nice pander to the majority by putting Mang0 as the GOAT.
Based on criteria #1 (peak>longevity), Armada is the GOAT. The biggest argument for Mango over Armada is longevity.
Another argument for Mango is impact, but that is not one of the criteria. I don't understand why specific criteria is defined and then ignored. A decent % of the reasons given for Mango aren't on the criteria list.
Looking into it further, Mango has not been ranked #1 since 2014. The #1 ranking was held by Armada from 15-16, Hbox from 17-19, and after that it has been Zain.
imagine starting a video saying
" rules are :
peak over longevity" and then end up putting mango as the goat becuase he had the "longevity" over aramda
Low-key This is Lebron vs Jordan where everyone picks lebron (Mango) over Jordan (Armada)
Ken getting punished solely due to his era. He was the undisputed best player for like 6 years straight. Zain is my favorite current player, and obviously with advancements in the meta, Zain would destroy Ken. But Ken's resume is way better than Zain's at this point.
not solely due to his era. 1. not only is that a clown era where items were on, ridiculous stages, it can't be compared to the current ruleset at all, and no one was optimised at all, everyone was playing on trash controllers. but on top of that, he played in the 5 gods era and he got completely bodied. maybe if he retired and never came back you could make the argument, but everyone knows exactly how good ken is compared to the new field, and that is... not very good. you still have to give him points for dominance in his era but it's not comparable, the skill ceiling was so low
@AlexRoseGames Babe Ruth would be total trash if he played in modern era, But he's considered one of the best players ever because you really can only fairly judge a player vs their peers, meta of the time. Items weren't on for all the matches back then, and once they were turned off fully, Ken was still easily #1 for years. I know full well that random slippi kids would destroy Ken. But bad modern ncaa pitchers would make Babe Ruth's head spin.
I should say the video is really well done, just my personal belief about comparing eras.
They honestly kinda convinced me that Armada is the GOAT when they said Mang0 was the GOAT before and after him.
That literally means Armada took the crown from Mang0 and it went back only by default. He had the highest peak, was the most untouchable, and was better than the other possible GOATs.
I think theres an issue with such a timely retirement making him impossible to dethrone in the future, which is why I still want to say it's Mang0. But never taking a loss outside of the top 7-10 players is truly insane dominance by Armada.
for me armada and mango are at the top, its so tough to separate them because its really just peak vs longevity.
I love how the argument for Mang0 vs Armada for GOAT flipped over the past 5 years.
@@omarg2079 Stats can only take you so far, *Especially* since Mang0 absolutely has equally comparable stats in different areas. Armada still has untouchable peak stats similar to Sugar Ray Robinson's 128-1-2, an *Insane* quite frankly ludicrous and possibly unbeatable statistic, but all competition only grows as time goes on. And I find it difficult to believe that Armada could hang on to that "Doesn't lose to Top 7 and below" stat. I don't think it's real in 2023 and onwards. Just as boxing has changed and evolved considerably, so has Melee, and for Mang0 to not only keep up, but *STILL* win the most competitive Majors from Loser's Bracket so often speaks to how undeniably amazing of a competitor Mang0 is. I follow Tekken 7 much more closely than I follow Melee, but let me remind you, Loser's Brackets runs don't fucking happen, bro. It's DUMB how legitimately Mang0 can take a tournament from Loser's Bracket. Armada's Loser's Bracket stats don't compare to The Kid's and that's a damn fact.
@@kylefields3951the reason armadas looser bracket runs don't compare is because armada simply didn't loose to anyone below the top 6 if anything imo it proves the point that armada is the goat. Armada doesn't have crazy loses bracket runs cause armada simply didn't have to have loosers bracket runs like that
you could argue Mango has the higher peak as well. 2013-2014 era mango was dominant
@@kylefields3951 so we rewarding people for losing now? lol
People seem to forget that the SSBM “official” ranking system wasn’t instilled until about 2013. Mang0 was unarguably, the best for two different periods of time or one big time period if you decide to divide it in such a way. He was unarguably the best from 2008-2014. Armada was possibly unarguably the best from about 2015-2018. Couple this with the fact that mang0 can be argued to be considered to be among the best throughout 2008-2022 with periods of being unarguably the best I can understand and pretty much agree with mang0 being the goat.
Swap Zain and Ken. Ken's consecutive reign is the longest in history, he deserves tier 2
It's likely Zain will join the 2nd tier after this year, but one year at 1st is too soon
This video was great cause. Its crazy how well you guys know all these plauers. I mostly agree with the list, though I have armada as my goat and I'd personally swap m2k and zain. Everyone else sounds about right
“I don’t think Jmook could win a tournament through losers” bro forgot about Collision
What is Toph talking about near the end? Jmook DID win a tournament through loser's. He did it before Zain or Cody (then cody did it later in this year). He lost to Cody in winner's then beat Moky Zuppy Cody Zain Zain to take the tournament
Was this video actually made like right before collision or what
I think that's likely, or Toph just fucked up. I've noticed in previous vids they say things that feel weeks or months out of date, like they record a whole bunch and then slowly release them. But that was 3 months ago, so it seems more likely he just messed up.
There is absolutely no reason to have Chillendude and Hugs on this list over Captain Jack and Axe and Amsah (a different player than Amsa).
They weren't ahead of axe, but yeah seems like they kinda just dropped the ball and forgot that captain jack and amsah existed lol
@@TheSharkasmCrew Ah, I thought Axe was left out of the final list when I didn't see him in the last tier. But yeah there are plenty of people to put in a top 30 over Chillin and Hugs, with Captain Jack and Amsah being the most deserving IMO. Their skill level for their eras was at the top and they proved it the couple times they were able to compete in American tournaments while near their prime.
just like the NBA it quickly becomes about the definition of GOAT. is it "greatest", is it "would beat anyone's peak across all time". is it who carried the game and the crown the most or who would win in a 1v1.
Scratchy Jefferson definitely needs a shoutout
armada is the goat
Armada is definitely the goat if you mostly care about stats (in this video you said peaks and that's Armada for sure). That said, Mango just keeps playing. It seems like he can't help it. Armada won all the chips at the poker table and left. Mango loses all his chips, plays some random game for two months, and shows up ready to go broke again. I want to see Mango as the goat because Mango IS melee more than any other person in the conversation. Melee doesn't die. Mango doesn't stop playing. It's bigger than in game performance.
Stats is what determines who the GOAT is tho.
The thing about Armada is his peak lasted for his entire career basically. He never placed lower than 5th, and has a positive record against almost everybody in the game except Captain Jack and SilentSpectre. Nothing is more impressive than taking a set off Armada, basically. He wasn't even slumping towards the end of his career really, in fact ended on a win at Smash Con 2018. It's not like others where their peak was a 2-3 year span (such as Hbox), or even just one year (such as with Leffen). Armada played essentially everyone and came out on top in the lifetime head-to-head. By acclamation, he is absolutely the GOAT and it's not a question.
But I think in the discussion of the greatest of all time, there's more to it than just acclamation. I think Mango's loser's runs are too impressive to count out. Part of being the greatest is being able to come back, and his comeback ability is unmatched. He's won over 20 tournaments from losers, has come back from rough slumps and rose right back to the top. He's also made a lot of crazy runs with much lower tier characters, which is also impressive. He's made a lot of meta development for Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Marth, and even Mario, and was the best at one of those characters at one point or another. Mango's longevity is also unmatched, as he's been in the game for over 15 years, and has had his own points of being the best in the world.
Mango also has shown his ability to perform against everybody. He was dominant before, during, and after Armada's career. He beat Ken in '07, all of the gods and many more in the 2010s, and in the 2020s he's beat Zain, Cody, aMSa, and Jmook.
Gotta give it to the kid personally.
Yeah sorry but Armada is the GOAT and it’s not particularly close. He literally had an 8 year stretch where he barely lost to anyone.