Tires are about 50% of it. The other 50% is just knowing how to drive in the winter. You can have winter tires, take a bend too fast and fly into a ditch. You can also have winter tires and drive too fast to the light, hit your brakes, and slide into a car at a stop light (my coworker in 2019). It doesn't guarantee you anything unless you actually know how to drive in the winter. A lot of the reason why most car enthusiasts would recommend AWD cars to people for better winter driving isn't even due to the starting or stopping points. It's due to everything in between. If you decide to not get winter tires on an AWD vehicle, you're more likely to be able to "control" the car, even by accident, in these scenarios, than you would FWD or RWD. Meanwhile, FWD is easier to control than RWD due to letting off the throttle. Snow tires can't really be the magic scapegoat unfortunately. It'll be great if they were. When you brake it down, pun intended, stopping isn't really ever the cause of the accident directly. It's attention, over-confidence in abilities, and lack of (driving) education. Most people drive into ditches when no cars are on the road, even with snow tires, and that's because too many of them have this misunderstanding of how to drive in the winter.
Tires are 30%. Driver is 30%. Configuration (RWD/FWD/AWD/4X4) is 20%. Limited slip differentials (or lack there of) are the remaining 20%. A RWD or FWD vehicle with a good driver, good tires and a limited slip differential, will be better in the snow than a AWD vehicle with a good driver and good tires but no LSD. Why? AWD with open differentials is just 2wd once you start to lose traction.
Raised in Warren Ohio and learned to drive RWD cars in the snow with my Dad in the mall parking lot. Fast forward to today, I drive an AWD SUV that has some fancy computer that decides which wheels need power and when. Back in the day, I felt like I had a tactile feel of the road and could anticipate losing traction. With modern FWD and AWD cars, I feel like I don’t know traction has been lost until it’s already gone. By then it’s too late to regain control. I would rather have oversteered than understeer.
Bought an ND3 Miata this summer as my only car, got a winter setup and it has zero issue in the snow here is western Michigan. Up hill is even a breeze, so much fun.
When I was back in Wisconsin I had a 225 TT, C5 A6, B6 A4, MDX, in the "AWD" Category. Before leaving the state I tried out a RWD E46. That was the best winter experience I had.
I had a Toyota MR2 Spyder, mid engine rwd and it was the best car I ever drove in snow. I always assumed it was having the engine over the drive tires or just that it had some of the more expensive tires I've ever bought. I drove that through ice storms and it stayed planted and in control at all times.
Mid-engine weight distribution, low power, narrow wheels, and quality winter tires are a good recipe for winter driving. Coupled with a skilled/sensible driver anyway. I just picked up a 370z 6sp to use as my daily driver (I'm in Ohio). Getting my smaller winter wheels and Michelin X-Ice installed next Monday.
My f80 with an added 50-60lbs of weight in the trunk loves the snow. I try to daily it as much as possible here in Chicago. I know it’s going to cause rust and damage over time but I find it peaceful to slide around at 2am on a Tuesday after a good snowfall lol.
I agree on the RWD vs. FWD. I daily drove an ND1 through 4 northern Ohio winters, swapping on a set of winter wheels with Blizzak tires each November. I felt like the car had better traction and handling that any FWD car I've owned with all-season tires. Plus it was fun to kick out the rear end going around corners once in a while! I never worried about traction but did have to worry about ground clearance occasionally, depending on how deep the snow was.
20 years ago a friend and I drove a stick shift 280z from seatac/Seattle airport to the southcenter mall in snow and ice in the middle of the night. If you are familiar with the area, it is a VERY steep hill. It also has a lot to do with knowing how to drive. And most people don't know how to drive.
Grew up in northern Michigan, started driving in 76, no AWD or fwd back then. No "winter" tires either just heavily treaded tires as hard as a hockey puck. Fwd works IF you have a good hand brake on the rear wheels to induce the rear end to come around. I drive an older Jeep, 2wd is a blast goofing around, and 4wd works great when I have to go where I need to go. I also run winter tires, 4wd and winter tires it goes AND stops amazing. I did snow removal from a Ford Crown Vic with winter tires and a limited slip pulling a trailer loaded with salt bags and a snow blower. Never got stuck and impressed the hell out of the truck guys.
Glad the algorithm recommended your channel, I watched one video and subbed. Now I've been listening to a few at my job and it makes the work go by. Jeep it up 😊
Rear engine rear wheel drive. Limited slip differential is a great help. My first car was a '65 Corvair and great in snow. Going is less of a problem than stopping though. I've had both and front wheel drive in accelerating shifts weight to the rear where rear wheel drive shifts weight more to the drive wheels.
Daily drive a w204 c63 in Canada. Winter tires make it an absolute hoot. Limited slio plus linear controlled power, great brakes, fantastic steering, plus 25 plus years experience driving in the snow makes it easy.
If you have enough traction to get any sort of weight transfer, then its not going to matter what your driving. When the freeway is iced over and you dont want to continuously fight the rear end coming around on you at 70 mph for your 80 mile commute. Youll be in a fwd econobox with nokians.
Okay Doug, I found a flaw in your referral to and reliance upon weight transfer. True, upon accelerating weight shifts rearward, upon braking weight shifts forward, and upon cornering weight shifts laterally. However, weight may shift more or less aggressively in those directions due to how aggressively and suddenly those maneuvers/inputs are made. I do have some added skills over "the general public" having worked for a go-kart track a few years in the earlier 2000s. Fringe benefits. In winter driving we don't want to simply mash the throttle with blatant disregard to traction; you'll just spin rubber. I lived in the SF Bay Area during my high school years, and with a 1963 Stude. Avanti R3, outfitted with a Dana 44 which the Granatelli guys at Paxton Products had "shimmed/packed tighter" even light rainy days were sketchy. I was forced to learn gentle throttle application, an application I didn't have to worry about on those gloriously warm and sunny California days. Since we do not slam that weight rearward on snow & ice, weight transfer has less of an effect during conservative winter driving. I now reside in Central Maine and my daily driver is a 5-speed Focus. All I've ever had are all-season tires (it's just the daily) and the fact my car is FF, plus the fact I can modulate the clutch, has gotten me out of everything Maine has thrown at me thus far. FF cars may be 62f/38r, although with an easy application of the throttle, they're going to remain much closer to 60f/40r, than they would 50/50 or 45f/55r. The weight of everything important (engine, transmission, differential, and battery) sitting over the driven axle helps (allow me use a Trump word here) BIGLY! I love the referrals to the Porsche 911 as being an awesome winter car. Of course! Their drivetrain is a FF car flipped 180° within the chassis. I'd love to experiment out here with one of those early 4 wheel steer Honda Preludes. That would probably feel really funky. Would I love an early SN-95 equipped with the uber rare removable hard top (it sucks smoothline hardtops went out of business), for year-round Maine duty? Yes, of course. Although that would be more of a handful than my Focus. To make said handful easier, I would equip the SN-95 on more narrow Blizzak or studded tires (and raise the ride height via coilovers I would equip) starting after turkey day.
I live in central Georgia; snow isn't really a thing for us. However, in 1993 I was living in northern Atlanta when the "blizzard of 1993" hit, leaving us covered with 6" of snow. At the time I had a BMW E12 sedan (169hp with 4-speed manual) and a VW Cabriolet (90hp with a 3 speed auto). Both cars had Michelin All Season tires on them. When the time came to venture out onto the roads, the BMW wouldn't even move. The tires just spun on the frozen ground underneath it. However, the VW took it all in stride, never once showing any sign of getting stuck. Better tires might have helped the BMW, but similarly better tires would have shown even better results on the VW. Just one real-world experience to contribute to the discussion...
I used to daily drive a arctic white 98' C5 corvette up here in cleveland. As long as your tires have decent tread you'll be good for a stroll in the snow, even blizzards worse case scenario.
Ive driven rwd awd and fwd in snow never had a particular issue with any of them even in heavy snow. Ive never used winter tires on anything but my daily driver is still fwd it just feels more relaxed and I have to drive 60k miles a year sometimes more so the fwd with GOOD all seasons has always treated me well. 2012 Hyundai Sonata right now with Yokohama tires and it does amazing in the winter
Last 16 years I’ve been driving 4wd vehicles (1 Silverado and 2 wranglers) various tire sizes ranging from a 265/70-20 to a 37/12.50-17. On the big mts my cousins were like oh this must be a beast in snow and I told them it is as long as you realize why it shouldn’t and adapt your driving to it. All were kept in 2wd until 4wd was needed
As a northerner and unabashed snow lover, it's about having good tires and great awareness and consistency. Pay attention to what your car is telling you and the be mindful of the conditions, and you'll make it further with RWD than some people with 4WD.
Almost correct. Buffalo NY'er here, and that's just only correct on like back roads and minimal traffic, with the idea that "plows" exist (These are poor areas lol, we don't get that luxury most of the time). I agree, having good tires (All Season or Winter), great awareness and consistency are all key factors. Along with paying attention to the car, the road, and all surroundings. Knowing how to drive is the pivotal point here. RWD is the worst for winter conditions for glaring obvious reasons: - Less traction on the road (Your driven wheels have less weight) - Less capability of counter steering due to the potential that your rear wheels won't have traction to allow the counter steer I get people live in like Tennessee and think 2 inches of snow is "dangerous", but not every place only gets 1 inch of snow you're expected to drive in. In most places, they get 1 -4 ft of snow typical on a road you're going to need to drive in, possibly not even plowed. You're going to get "less" traction, even with winter tires, in RWD. I have a 350z, a G37x, and a Toyota Prius Prime. The Prime has snow tires, the G37x has all season tires. The G37x has better traction on the road in the winter, and is able to properly go at high speeds without risk. The prius Prime (The fiancé's car) has no major issues driving in the snow, but we can't take too many unplowed streets with it without it potentially getting stuck, or in many cases -- driving too fast and having to let off the throttle so we don't oversteer. My 350z, I've driven it in the winter a couple times when I got it about a decade ago. Lol I can have fun in it, but that's not safe fun. That's dangerous fun when there's hundreds of cars surrounding me "trying to get to work at 7am". The best idea is always going to be "Get snow tires", but the best combination is either going to be FWD or AWD with them; But none of that escapes the idea that "If you know how to drive in the winter, you don't really need to go beyond all seasons, but it'll give you a boost in confidence while driving, and by extension, stopping."
Doug for the win! Georgia boy has to tell folks about winter driving😆🤠Aside overlooking that cornering and stability gets a major boost from snow tires.
Yes!!! You are 100% right its my second winter in Boston and second time i drive in snow i daily drive a Mercedes CLK 55 W208 now and i tried FWD last winter and i can tell how RWD is very predictable and controllable and i’m not even on winter tires yet
I think both can be great if you have the right tires and it's the right car. Currently I drive a 1979 Subaru DL Wagon (FWD). It has very aggressive tires (Achilles Desert Hawk XMT 175R13C). Weighing only 1800 lb and having an extremely short wheelbase it will turn around in tight circles in the snow if you want it to. It can also stop very quickly simply by downshifting or being light on the brakes. It also has extreme ground clearance for it's size of almost a foot. In the past I also drove an E92 335D in the winter. It was great because you could turn using the throttle and it was very controllable. FWD cars with extreme weight over the front end can also work very well in the winter. For example my friend's 82 Oldsmobile Toronado diesel will just follow the front end like a trailer everywhere. Same thing when I drove around a Pontiac Grand Prix GXP in the snow. In general, old FWD cars with no traction control or ABS or ones that can be disabled can be similarly but not quite as controllable as RWD cars, it's just a different process to drive them and how good the car is in the snow is going to depend on many different factors.
Moderately hot take with a MAJOR caveat; all things being equal, AWD actually has slightly better braking through dispersed engine braking to all 4 wheels instead of one axle. The caveat being that the driver actually needs the skill and ability to effectively use engine braking...
It’s always the lifted 4x4 trucks driving like a jackass that thinks they’re impervious to snow lol….then u see them stuck in a ditch a mile up the road 🤣🤣
As someone who lives in the mountains with snow 6/12 months. Get FWD for winter driving. but yeah, ACTUAL WINTER TIRES ARE A HUGE DIFFERENCE. 3 Peak Mountain Snowflake. Not just M+S Any company can slap M+S on a tire. theres zero regulation. 3 Peak Mountain Snowflake actually have standards they have to meet.
I had a great comparison for one winter. I had a FWD '08 Saab 9-3SC and an RWD '11 BMW 328i wagon (that replaced the Saab). Both 6spds, both on the same size and model Dunlop winter tires. They were VERY equivalent cars with different strengths and weakness, but one was simply NOT really better than the other in slippery conditions. Ultimately, the Saab would accelerate slightly better, the BMW would turn and stop slightly better. Makes sense given the relative weight distribution of the two cars. 65:35 vs 49:51. Is there such a thing as a FWD car with 50:50 weight distribution?? But that said, I MUCH preferred the BMW. Better balance, way more fun. True no matter the pavement condition, actually. The Saab was a good car, the BMW is a GREAT car. Amusingly, 14 years on, I still have the BMW, and the Saab has been owned by a succession of friends and is still "in the family" as well. And after that first winter, the BMW has never seen salt and only has 54K on it today. The Saab has ALWAYS seen winter and is at about 230K. Still doing pretty well. I very much agree that TIRES are by FAR the most important ingredient here, and AWD can just get you in more trouble via a false sense of confidence. I always want more ability to STOP than to GO. If the conditions are so bad that you NEED AWD, stay home.
Was driving my '95 rear drive Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham with 4 snow tires on the highway in icing conditions. My brain computer said go no faster than 60 MPH. Got passed by a blacked out Explorer doing 80, whereupon he just started spinning. First one way, then the other. He never recovered. I passed him as he was aliding sideways, pointing toward me. Gave him a wave as I went by. By luck, there was no collision.
Northeast Ohio G6 and G8 owner here. I never had actual winter tires on the G8 but on newish all seasons the G8 would just about crabwalk down some roads by me because the road is so banked. I prefer the G6 for winter driving for this reason... also to keep the G8 away from the salt. lol
I like RWD better, but FWD driven by someone who can drive, drives pretty good when you can use weight transfer correctly. If you do it correctly, you can be in an oversteer condition and have the ability to use full throttle to modulate the front end. Drive it rally style, left foot braking and right foot on the gas at the same time.
I own a 2020 V8 Camaro with a manual. After two Montana winters, I finally dropped a shit ton of money to buy a set of snow tires and summer tires (it came with all seasons), and I was absolutely blown away by the difference with the winter tires. I previously drove an 86 S-10, 02 F-150, and 18 4runner, all with 4wd and all season tires, and I feel safer in the Camaro. It's insane how much tires matter. Also back up cameras are amazing when you drive a car with such shit rear visibility as the current gen Camaro. Like, I CAN drive it safely without it, but it's far easier to do so with it.
My older brother and I argue about this. He's done most of his driving in RWD vehicles. I've done most of my driving in FWD vehicles. So he prefers RWD in the snow, and I prefer FWD in the snow. But an Audi S5 with winter tires is better.
There was a guy that drove an S2000 year round. Many pics of him on the internet cruising with the top down in the winter as he never puts the top up. Partly does it to get attention to those without heat in the winter.
Sorry dude, the weight only transfers to the rear of the car when “actually accelerating.” No weight transfer happens just spinning your wheels when there is no traction.
That helps my case. Any acceleration with any traction at all will move weight to the rear. It is exacerbated in low traction situations. You just don’t feel it as much in a fwd car but it’s still happening.
@ No, I don’t think it helps your case at all, because a RWD, front engine car won’t get anywhere near enough traction from regular tires to shift any weight, or at least not nearly enough weight to gain enough traction to get up a snowy hill from a stop.
Have always owned pickups. Mostly compacts. I would shovel the driveway into the bed of the pickup. Living in the Baltimore area or Warren, Ohio. With good snow grips, would get around.
Front wheel drive for the majority of people is better because the weight is over the tires - however I absolutely appreciate a rear wheel drive car in the snow for the fun factor and I currently have all wheel drive because it’s all around better.
100% agree that RWD is better than FWD. Although the lack of driving skills argument I don't really agree on. I can throw my Golf around the corner using liftoff oversteer. Is a RWD going to be quicker? Yes, it can stay on the power through a corner, I can't in FWD.
Found a brand new c7 in a snow bank on I680 at about 4am on my way to work the last time we had a blizzard in NE Ohio. Had temp tags so I assume it had summer tires. Not sure what he was thinking getting on 680 let alone any road at the time. It took 4wd low to get out of my driveway. I absolutely HATE the winter but I love to drive in snow. Just hate being cold.
My wife's car is a rwd Polestar 2. EV's make this discussion easier. All EV's have most of the weight between the tires. The motor is where the drive wheels are. Winter tires are still the most important factor.
I've run four studded snows on every car I've owned, FWD, RWD, and AWD. Know what works best? Having four snow tires, since stopping and steering are as important as going.
Saving rwd sports cars from the salty winters is enough of a reason to not even try. Buy a winter beater. Most people won't want to swap tires twice a year or buy winter rims and tires.
This argument doesn’t make any sense. The question is which vehicle is better in the snow front wheel drive or rear wheel drive. The question is not what driver is better in the snow. The driver skill doesn’t have anything to do with the question that’s being asked.
@ That doesn’t matter because the average driver isn’t skilled. Driver skill level is irrelevant in this question. Because I can put an unskilled driver in a 911 with snow tires on it and I will guarantee you they will be in a ditch .
@@Teezeboy Which begs another, more important question: Why are we giving unskilled drivers a license? If you can't move a RWD car with snow tires in the snow, you shouldn't have a license to drive on public roads.
@@switchcars Again that doesn’t make any sense. If I live in Southern California, Arizona , or Nevada why in the world would I need to know how to drive and snow?
@@Teezeboy You've never gotten a snowstorm in Arizona or Nevada? Because I certainly have, and I don't even live there. Well, I lived in Nevada for a while. But anyway, the driving dynamics are the same - snow just slows everything down because it's less traction. Being able to handle oversteer/understeer and weight transfer is universally applicable.
I’ll say RWD wins with the caveat it either needs to have some kind of limited slip or locking diff out back or be something substantially heavy if it’s an open diff. Nothing quite as awful as a featherweight RWD vehicle with one wheel drive on snow. Limited slip helps make handling more predictable too
Doug discovered that dislikes also promote videos lol this discussion deserves to be on a political channel. It digs into a deeper debate about privileged humanity in the modern world. Doug needs a second channel just responding to currents events outside of the car community.
I would take FWD over RWD in the snow every day. If the front tires are sliding around a corner, I'd like them to be pulling the way I'm turning rather than being pushed into the ditch.
Since I had to sleep in my car during the Atlanta ice apocalypse I saw first hand how bad rwd can be. Most of the awd cars were able to make it home if they weren't blocked in by all the rwd cars and trucks in the south. I understand this is a big anomaly but the facts are against the rwd take.
Actually... (Don't you hate it when a sentence starts that way)? Two points: 1- Pretty much every car is all-wheel stop. 2- Depending on drive line and differentials some AWD or 4WD systems will stop a bit better in slippery conditions as the system can help back-drive wheels that might have locked up. I think the big "it depends" in this argument is that for the vast majority of drivers a FWD vehicle is the best snow vehicle. It won't give false confidence in available traction that an AWD system might (also,no lift-off oversteer), it will accelerate better than RWD, and the tendency to understeer is safer than a RWD's tendency to oversteer. Also, the weight transfer to the driven wheels in a RWD car is dependent on acceleration to provide weight transfer. Acceleration tends to be hard to come by in slippery conditions. For the driver with some skill and who's looking for fun RWD or AWD (power slides even on a relatively low powered car anyone? Oh, and with snow flying up from the tires as you slide to unleash your rally driver fantasies) can be fun (and good practise on the effects of weight transfer, throttle, and steering inputs on vehicle control) in the winter.
That’s a weight distribution issue right there. 4wd pickups are just as bad, as they can so easily lose traction on the rear wheels and come around on people. Especially during braking.
A blanket statement that RWD is better in the snow is ridiculous! Back in early 90’s, I had an ‘83 Mazda RX7 sitting on almost brand new M+S rated Bridgestone Potenza tires that literally couldn’t get moving from a stop on flat ground in the snow, without me opening the door and pushing it. At the exact same time, my roommate’s Acura Integra, sitting on old, off brand tires that were not M+S rated could drive around in the same snow, almost effortlessly. Also at the same time, my other roommate was driving a 70’s VW Bug that drove so well in the snow that we took turns driving the Bug in the snow, pulling an air mattress by a rope through the neighborhood while the others guys rode on the mattress. After that experience, I swore off vehicles that didn’t have AWD or 4WD (unless it was rear engine). I’ve easily made it up Seattle logging hills with nearly bald, all season, off brand tires in an AWD Kia SUV, and live on a hill that’s that steep. Every time it snows, I go up the hill without a problem, regardless of the tires. AWD and 4WD make a massive difference in the snow. Not for braking of course, but unless the vehicle is rear engine like a Porsche, you’re not getting up a snowy hill without studs or chains with RWD.
@@switchcarsbut all things can’t be equal. Rear wheel, rear engine cars are so rare, it’s almost silly to even bring them up in this context. The vast majority of cars are either front motor, FWD, or front motor RWD. In every case, the RWD on regular tires is stuck in place (without adding sand bags to the trunk) anywhere but Kansas and the FWD can go wherever it wants on almost any tires, without changing the weight distribution.
Less power is also better than more power. My 4runner with 100whp is way safer in snow drifting than my Audi a3 with 3X the power. And the Audi has snow tires
During the January icepocalypse of 2014, I was coming back home to the south side of Atlanta from Indiana. I wasn't listening to the news on the radio or the weather in any way. 🤦🏼♂️🤣 I was in a Chrysler Town & Country minivan. It took me FIVE HOURS to get through Atlanta from midnight to five A.M. I took only the surface streets that I thought I could make it up or down. I did NOT go up or down any major hills or slopes. I passed cops who were stuck on the road while I was driving in the median areas😂 They just looked at me dumbfounded. 😂😂😂 I made it home to Griffin, Georgia. I think the roads got bad up in Kennesaw. NOT ONE TIME, did I get stuck or need help. It's more about the driver than the car in MOST situations. I grew up going mudding on dirt bikes, 4 wheelers, and in my old trucks and cars. I had a genuine knowledge of traction. I was also 34 years old, and I wasn't about to get stuck in downtown Atlanta with no food, gas, or shelter.
@switchcars no, I did not. I had no idea there was weather coming in. I was at a funeral in Madison, Indiana. I didn't know there would be bad weather until I got almost back into Georgia. I also didn't know Atlanta was shut entirely down and was a metropolitan parking lot. 🤣
No, 911s don't have a 50/50 weight distribution. They behave will in low-friction conditions because they have more weight over the driven tires. Agreed? The the same argument can be made for front wheel drive cars that are front heavy. In that case, more of the weight is ALSO over the driven tires. Also, front wheel drive does not inherently mean a car can't spin around. Basically, it is impossible to claim that one drive layout is inherently better than the other, because there are a lot of variables involved besides just drive layout. PS - Anybody who did NOT spend their teen years doing doughnuts in the snow, late at night in an empty parking lot, is somebody who I don't trust to drive me around in winter conditions.
@@xtnuser5338while that is true, it is a required baseline for a comparison. You can’t argue a comparison based on things being equal by introducing non-equal variables.
@@switchcars Nobody "introduced" all the unequal variables. They just exist. So based on your words, it is impossible to make a comparison. Which was my point exactly: you can't just say one is better than the other without a whole lot of qualifications being put on the claim.
Went to buy snow tires for my 996 and found out none are available in my required size. Trying to decide if I put my aged out tires on, or just not drive this winter.
Could you elaborate, packaging? And not entirely correct. Before the SUV craze, most of the cars in Western NY were FWD intentionally because they're safer to drive for "uneducated" drivers in the winter. Simply letting off the throttle stops you from sliding. With AWD, you have the capability of handling it to get it out, but it's multiple points off potential traction make it better, especially with winter tires -- but none of that can truly save you if you just don't know how to drive in the winter. I'd argue any drive is good in the winter, and winter tires aren't even necessary, if you just know how to drive in the winter.
@@itsJoshW sure - the front wheel drive concept is as old as the car itself, and there are two main advantages : packaging and traction due to weight. I'll just talk to packaging, since I said it was the reason for the design. I was thinking of the Mini when I said "packaging", but the same concept can be seen in the 2CV, the Traction Avant, the Fiat 500and others. Putting the transmission and engine ahead of the passenger compartment allows for a flat floor, eliminates some compromises in the design and allows for a more compact design. Look at the slew of front wheel drive compact cars from the late 70's and 80's - they all have the compact transmission and engine in a box on the front, then a flat area for seating and a hatchback in the rear. When you compare them to the rear wheel drive compact cars like the Gremlin or the Chevette, there is more space in the passenger compartment and a overall better use of the space available. But with more research, I have to retract my comment. It was seen as offering both better traction and better packaging each time a manufacture introduced it. I do agree with your point that driver skill matters. And that the manufactures sold them as better in the snow to anyone living in a area with snow during the wave of new front wheel drive hatchbacks in the 80's. I recall a lot of derision about front wheel drive versus rear wheel drive in terms of performance driving at the time, mainly dealing with weight transfer to the rear under acceleration.
Not in the case of Saab, who used a longitudinal FWD for decades for the claimed winter driving benefits over then RWD based rival Volvo. Moreover FWD was designed because it was novel, the first FWD cars, Citroen Traction Avant and Cord 810 were luxury cars and came nearly 25 years prior to the packaging innovation that was the original Mini.
My guess for “Jeep Klr” was a Hummer H1. A Bronco Sport is so lame. I mean I guess it could be a Jeep Compass Killer, but we know he was implying it’s better than a Wrangler.
The golf lessons analogy doesn't work because many normie drivers who absolutely suck think they are great drivers. My honda insight sucks in snow because it predictably understeers.
you must be from newengland rhode island because NOBODY can drive in the snow or anything unless your from the midwest then you can handle snow and everything els. #fromthemidwest #rhodeislandsucks
Awd stops better, you can gear down to slow the car using all 4 wheel (quattro) not haldex or other fwd base systems , instead of using front brakes which will trigger abs. fwd is better then rwd in snow, spent my youth in mk2 gti without snow tires, frends bmw e30 and 944 wouldn't move. Rwd with limited slip and snow tires is fun,, but limited as the snow gets deeper. 35 years driving in the snow in Canada. My 2000 Audi b5 1.8t manual on skinny 16 inch will take down any porsche, especially Carrera 4s. To heavy and tires are to wide.
@ same here last winter with that big Arctic front in January everything was shut down for 2 weeks because we don’t have the plows or road maintenance crews to deal with it
FWD is only better for people who can't figure out how to drive and should be riding a bus instead of driving a vehicle. The only reason FWD even exists in the first place is to create a larger profit margin for manufacturers. Its the cursed drivetrain layout.
Bad faith argument and I hope your kept up a little a night for dropping this. Apparently neither of you has owned a truck where you can instantly know which is better Or I’m sure some engineering nerds will come in here. Pulling from the front will always create a more consistent line of travel than pushing from the back. Yes I will accept there are certain situations where rear will can save you but front wheel cannot. However you will get there without problems 9 out 10 with front and 7-10 rear
Nicely put. All in good fun. And for FUN I’d rather have a RWD in the snow, but if I needed to be somewhere it’s be AWD or 4WD SCCA ICE trials bear this out. AWD and 4wd wins hands down
Nope, FWD in snow or gravel is better than RWD. Rally driver would prefer RWD on road but FWD in slippery surfaces, not rain but gravel/dirt/snow. If you can't drive a fwd better in the snow than a RWD car it's because you don't know how to drive it. So if you learn how to drive and put winter tires on a sporty FWD car it's amazing. Throttle off oversteer around a corner in the snow is amazing. But I'd make do with RWD because it's better all other times.
@switchcars very true but just meshes better with how the front wheels pull you through the corner and counters the oversteer with understeer, especially if there is a little ditch or grove on the inside of the corner to hook to.
Tires are 90% of it
at LEAST 93%
Four out of five dentests agree!
Tires are about 50% of it. The other 50% is just knowing how to drive in the winter. You can have winter tires, take a bend too fast and fly into a ditch. You can also have winter tires and drive too fast to the light, hit your brakes, and slide into a car at a stop light (my coworker in 2019). It doesn't guarantee you anything unless you actually know how to drive in the winter.
A lot of the reason why most car enthusiasts would recommend AWD cars to people for better winter driving isn't even due to the starting or stopping points. It's due to everything in between. If you decide to not get winter tires on an AWD vehicle, you're more likely to be able to "control" the car, even by accident, in these scenarios, than you would FWD or RWD. Meanwhile, FWD is easier to control than RWD due to letting off the throttle.
Snow tires can't really be the magic scapegoat unfortunately. It'll be great if they were.
When you brake it down, pun intended, stopping isn't really ever the cause of the accident directly. It's attention, over-confidence in abilities, and lack of (driving) education. Most people drive into ditches when no cars are on the road, even with snow tires, and that's because too many of them have this misunderstanding of how to drive in the winter.
Tires are 30%. Driver is 30%. Configuration (RWD/FWD/AWD/4X4) is 20%. Limited slip differentials (or lack there of) are the remaining 20%.
A RWD or FWD vehicle with a good driver, good tires and a limited slip differential, will be better in the snow than a AWD vehicle with a good driver and good tires but no LSD. Why? AWD with open differentials is just 2wd once you start to lose traction.
@@FeatheredDino don't forget weight distribution. That's pretty important too.
In the hands of someone that knows how to drive, RWD car is much better, but for the General public a FWD is much more forgiving than a RWD.
Raised in Warren Ohio and learned to drive RWD cars in the snow with my Dad in the mall parking lot. Fast forward to today, I drive an AWD SUV that has some fancy computer that decides which wheels need power and when. Back in the day, I felt like I had a tactile feel of the road and could anticipate losing traction. With modern FWD and AWD cars, I feel like I don’t know traction has been lost until it’s already gone. By then it’s too late to regain control. I would rather have oversteered than understeer.
Bought an ND3 Miata this summer as my only car, got a winter setup and it has zero issue in the snow here is western Michigan. Up hill is even a breeze, so much fun.
100% agree that snow tires is the most important.
I put blizzaks on my RWD Alfa Giulia, I think you guys summed up everything fairly well.
When I was back in Wisconsin I had a 225 TT, C5 A6, B6 A4, MDX, in the "AWD" Category. Before leaving the state I tried out a RWD E46. That was the best winter experience I had.
I had a Toyota MR2 Spyder, mid engine rwd and it was the best car I ever drove in snow. I always assumed it was having the engine over the drive tires or just that it had some of the more expensive tires I've ever bought. I drove that through ice storms and it stayed planted and in control at all times.
Mid-engine weight distribution, low power, narrow wheels, and quality winter tires are a good recipe for winter driving. Coupled with a skilled/sensible driver anyway.
I just picked up a 370z 6sp to use as my daily driver (I'm in Ohio). Getting my smaller winter wheels and Michelin X-Ice installed next Monday.
W30 best car
I love rear wheel drive especially with a well balanced car. You can have so much fun in a sports car in the winter.
My f80 with an added 50-60lbs of weight in the trunk loves the snow. I try to daily it as much as possible here in Chicago. I know it’s going to cause rust and damage over time but I find it peaceful to slide around at 2am on a Tuesday after a good snowfall lol.
fluidfilm
god damn Doug . The hard " Shh " at 1:42 and 1:45 and 2:34 nearly made me deaf lmfao .
I agree on the RWD vs. FWD. I daily drove an ND1 through 4 northern Ohio winters, swapping on a set of winter wheels with Blizzak tires each November. I felt like the car had better traction and handling that any FWD car I've owned with all-season tires. Plus it was fun to kick out the rear end going around corners once in a while! I never worried about traction but did have to worry about ground clearance occasionally, depending on how deep the snow was.
20 years ago a friend and I drove a stick shift 280z from seatac/Seattle airport to the southcenter mall in snow and ice in the middle of the night. If you are familiar with the area, it is a VERY steep hill. It also has a lot to do with knowing how to drive. And most people don't know how to drive.
Grew up in northern Michigan, started driving in 76, no AWD or fwd back then. No "winter" tires either just heavily treaded tires as hard as a hockey puck. Fwd works IF you have a good hand brake on the rear wheels to induce the rear end to come around. I drive an older Jeep, 2wd is a blast goofing around, and 4wd works great when I have to go where I need to go. I also run winter tires, 4wd and winter tires it goes AND stops amazing. I did snow removal from a Ford Crown Vic with winter tires and a limited slip pulling a trailer loaded with salt bags and a snow blower. Never got stuck and impressed the hell out of the truck guys.
Glad the algorithm recommended your channel, I watched one video and subbed. Now I've been listening to a few at my job and it makes the work go by. Jeep it up 😊
Good tires and ground clearance. Audi s (dart with wheels) are great in the snow becasue the lack the propensity to rotate by design.
Rear engine rear wheel drive. Limited slip differential is a great help. My first car was a '65 Corvair and great in snow.
Going is less of a problem than stopping though.
I've had both and front wheel drive in accelerating shifts weight to the rear where rear wheel drive shifts weight more to the drive wheels.
As a Canadian a front drive will do, ideally with a functional proper handbrake to counter that lovely understeer 😂
Yep, handbrake is key. These new electronic parking brakes take ALL the fun out of winter driving
Daily drive a w204 c63 in Canada. Winter tires make it an absolute hoot. Limited slio plus linear controlled power, great brakes, fantastic steering, plus 25 plus years experience driving in the snow makes it easy.
If you have enough traction to get any sort of weight transfer, then its not going to matter what your driving. When the freeway is iced over and you dont want to continuously fight the rear end coming around on you at 70 mph for your 80 mile commute. Youll be in a fwd econobox with nokians.
Okay Doug, I found a flaw in your referral to and reliance upon weight transfer. True, upon accelerating weight shifts rearward, upon braking weight shifts forward, and upon cornering weight shifts laterally. However, weight may shift more or less aggressively in those directions due to how aggressively and suddenly those maneuvers/inputs are made. I do have some added skills over "the general public" having worked for a go-kart track a few years in the earlier 2000s. Fringe benefits.
In winter driving we don't want to simply mash the throttle with blatant disregard to traction; you'll just spin rubber. I lived in the SF Bay Area during my high school years, and with a 1963 Stude. Avanti R3, outfitted with a Dana 44 which the Granatelli guys at Paxton Products had "shimmed/packed tighter" even light rainy days were sketchy. I was forced to learn gentle throttle application, an application I didn't have to worry about on those gloriously warm and sunny California days.
Since we do not slam that weight rearward on snow & ice, weight transfer has less of an effect during conservative winter driving. I now reside in Central Maine and my daily driver is a 5-speed Focus. All I've ever had are all-season tires (it's just the daily) and the fact my car is FF, plus the fact I can modulate the clutch, has gotten me out of everything Maine has thrown at me thus far.
FF cars may be 62f/38r, although with an easy application of the throttle, they're going to remain much closer to 60f/40r, than they would 50/50 or 45f/55r. The weight of everything important (engine, transmission, differential, and battery) sitting over the driven axle helps (allow me use a Trump word here) BIGLY!
I love the referrals to the Porsche 911 as being an awesome winter car. Of course! Their drivetrain is a FF car flipped 180° within the chassis. I'd love to experiment out here with one of those early 4 wheel steer Honda Preludes. That would probably feel really funky.
Would I love an early SN-95 equipped with the uber rare removable hard top (it sucks smoothline hardtops went out of business), for year-round Maine duty? Yes, of course. Although that would be more of a handful than my Focus. To make said handful easier, I would equip the SN-95 on more narrow Blizzak or studded tires (and raise the ride height via coilovers I would equip) starting after turkey day.
I live in central Georgia; snow isn't really a thing for us. However, in 1993 I was living in northern Atlanta when the "blizzard of 1993" hit, leaving us covered with 6" of snow.
At the time I had a BMW E12 sedan (169hp with 4-speed manual) and a VW Cabriolet (90hp with a 3 speed auto). Both cars had Michelin All Season tires on them. When the time came to venture out onto the roads, the BMW wouldn't even move. The tires just spun on the frozen ground underneath it. However, the VW took it all in stride, never once showing any sign of getting stuck.
Better tires might have helped the BMW, but similarly better tires would have shown even better results on the VW.
Just one real-world experience to contribute to the discussion...
I don't drive my f30 in the winter but I have a 2003 Corolla with Nokian tires worth more than the car 🤷
I used to daily drive a arctic white 98' C5 corvette up here in cleveland. As long as your tires have decent tread you'll be good for a stroll in the snow, even blizzards worse case scenario.
Standard transmissions are also helpful for traction management, and antilock braking by leaving the clutch out.
I don't drive in the snow, I travel in the snow!
SovCit checking in!
@@switchcars😂😂😂😂
The correct answer was the one with good winter tires on it. I had a PT Cruiser one winter with Blizzak's on it, that thing was unstoppable.
This is also correct.
Ive driven rwd awd and fwd in snow never had a particular issue with any of them even in heavy snow. Ive never used winter tires on anything but my daily driver is still fwd it just feels more relaxed and I have to drive 60k miles a year sometimes more so the fwd with GOOD all seasons has always treated me well. 2012 Hyundai Sonata right now with Yokohama tires and it does amazing in the winter
Last 16 years I’ve been driving 4wd vehicles (1 Silverado and 2 wranglers) various tire sizes ranging from a 265/70-20 to a 37/12.50-17. On the big mts my cousins were like oh this must be a beast in snow and I told them it is as long as you realize why it shouldn’t and adapt your driving to it. All were kept in 2wd until 4wd was needed
As a northerner and unabashed snow lover, it's about having good tires and great awareness and consistency. Pay attention to what your car is telling you and the be mindful of the conditions, and you'll make it further with RWD than some people with 4WD.
Almost correct. Buffalo NY'er here, and that's just only correct on like back roads and minimal traffic, with the idea that "plows" exist (These are poor areas lol, we don't get that luxury most of the time).
I agree, having good tires (All Season or Winter), great awareness and consistency are all key factors. Along with paying attention to the car, the road, and all surroundings. Knowing how to drive is the pivotal point here.
RWD is the worst for winter conditions for glaring obvious reasons:
- Less traction on the road (Your driven wheels have less weight)
- Less capability of counter steering due to the potential that your rear wheels won't have traction to allow the counter steer
I get people live in like Tennessee and think 2 inches of snow is "dangerous", but not every place only gets 1 inch of snow you're expected to drive in. In most places, they get 1 -4 ft of snow typical on a road you're going to need to drive in, possibly not even plowed. You're going to get "less" traction, even with winter tires, in RWD. I have a 350z, a G37x, and a Toyota Prius Prime. The Prime has snow tires, the G37x has all season tires. The G37x has better traction on the road in the winter, and is able to properly go at high speeds without risk. The prius Prime (The fiancé's car) has no major issues driving in the snow, but we can't take too many unplowed streets with it without it potentially getting stuck, or in many cases -- driving too fast and having to let off the throttle so we don't oversteer.
My 350z, I've driven it in the winter a couple times when I got it about a decade ago. Lol I can have fun in it, but that's not safe fun. That's dangerous fun when there's hundreds of cars surrounding me "trying to get to work at 7am".
The best idea is always going to be "Get snow tires", but the best combination is either going to be FWD or AWD with them; But none of that escapes the idea that "If you know how to drive in the winter, you don't really need to go beyond all seasons, but it'll give you a boost in confidence while driving, and by extension, stopping."
Doug for the win! Georgia boy has to tell folks about winter driving😆🤠Aside overlooking that cornering and stability gets a major boost from snow tires.
So what you're saying is, I should absolutely slay with my AWD Golf R with winter tires. nice.
Why wouldn't you assume that already? Just asking, not being snarky
As someone that owns a RWD and AWD car, I prefer AWD for most days, but especially when it snows.
Yes!!! You are 100% right its my second winter in Boston and second time i drive in snow i daily drive a Mercedes CLK 55 W208 now and i tried FWD last winter and i can tell how RWD is very predictable and controllable and i’m not even on winter tires yet
I think both can be great if you have the right tires and it's the right car. Currently I drive a 1979 Subaru DL Wagon (FWD). It has very aggressive tires (Achilles Desert Hawk XMT 175R13C). Weighing only 1800 lb and having an extremely short wheelbase it will turn around in tight circles in the snow if you want it to. It can also stop very quickly simply by downshifting or being light on the brakes. It also has extreme ground clearance for it's size of almost a foot. In the past I also drove an E92 335D in the winter. It was great because you could turn using the throttle and it was very controllable. FWD cars with extreme weight over the front end can also work very well in the winter. For example my friend's 82 Oldsmobile Toronado diesel will just follow the front end like a trailer everywhere. Same thing when I drove around a Pontiac Grand Prix GXP in the snow. In general, old FWD cars with no traction control or ABS or ones that can be disabled can be similarly but not quite as controllable as RWD cars, it's just a different process to drive them and how good the car is in the snow is going to depend on many different factors.
Moderately hot take with a MAJOR caveat; all things being equal, AWD actually has slightly better braking through dispersed engine braking to all 4 wheels instead of one axle. The caveat being that the driver actually needs the skill and ability to effectively use engine braking...
It’s always the lifted 4x4 trucks driving like a jackass that thinks they’re impervious to snow lol….then u see them stuck in a ditch a mile up the road 🤣🤣
People that actually live in shit conditions like northern Illinois all prefer FWD over RWD when things get bad. Period.
Maybe so. But this isn’t a poll, this is a principle of which is actually better. Physics isn’t democratic 😁
We all know how yall FIBs drive 😂
Just say you cant drive 😂
As someone who lives in the mountains with snow 6/12 months.
Get FWD for winter driving.
but yeah, ACTUAL WINTER TIRES ARE A HUGE DIFFERENCE.
3 Peak Mountain Snowflake. Not just M+S
Any company can slap M+S on a tire. theres zero regulation. 3 Peak Mountain Snowflake actually have standards they have to meet.
I had a great comparison for one winter. I had a FWD '08 Saab 9-3SC and an RWD '11 BMW 328i wagon (that replaced the Saab). Both 6spds, both on the same size and model Dunlop winter tires. They were VERY equivalent cars with different strengths and weakness, but one was simply NOT really better than the other in slippery conditions. Ultimately, the Saab would accelerate slightly better, the BMW would turn and stop slightly better. Makes sense given the relative weight distribution of the two cars. 65:35 vs 49:51. Is there such a thing as a FWD car with 50:50 weight distribution?? But that said, I MUCH preferred the BMW. Better balance, way more fun. True no matter the pavement condition, actually. The Saab was a good car, the BMW is a GREAT car.
Amusingly, 14 years on, I still have the BMW, and the Saab has been owned by a succession of friends and is still "in the family" as well. And after that first winter, the BMW has never seen salt and only has 54K on it today. The Saab has ALWAYS seen winter and is at about 230K. Still doing pretty well.
I very much agree that TIRES are by FAR the most important ingredient here, and AWD can just get you in more trouble via a false sense of confidence. I always want more ability to STOP than to GO. If the conditions are so bad that you NEED AWD, stay home.
Was driving my '95 rear drive Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham with 4 snow tires on the highway in icing conditions. My brain computer said go no faster than 60 MPH. Got passed by a blacked out Explorer doing 80, whereupon he just started spinning. First one way, then the other. He never recovered. I passed him as he was aliding sideways, pointing toward me. Gave him a wave as I went by. By luck, there was no collision.
Northeast Ohio G6 and G8 owner here. I never had actual winter tires on the G8 but on newish all seasons the G8 would just about crabwalk down some roads by me because the road is so banked. I prefer the G6 for winter driving for this reason... also to keep the G8 away from the salt. lol
I like RWD better, but FWD driven by someone who can drive, drives pretty good when you can use weight transfer correctly. If you do it correctly, you can be in an oversteer condition and have the ability to use full throttle to modulate the front end.
Drive it rally style, left foot braking and right foot on the gas at the same time.
My P71 Crown Victoria was a blast in the snow. It could rip donuts at will or get me home safe and sound.
Love these clip videos
I own a 2020 V8 Camaro with a manual. After two Montana winters, I finally dropped a shit ton of money to buy a set of snow tires and summer tires (it came with all seasons), and I was absolutely blown away by the difference with the winter tires. I previously drove an 86 S-10, 02 F-150, and 18 4runner, all with 4wd and all season tires, and I feel safer in the Camaro. It's insane how much tires matter.
Also back up cameras are amazing when you drive a car with such shit rear visibility as the current gen Camaro. Like, I CAN drive it safely without it, but it's far easier to do so with it.
Weight only transfers rearward only if auntie margarita pushes on the go go pedal hard nuff….
Also to be fair I had a 91 Chrysler imperial with ipikes on the front , in the deep snow the back would be a sled basically
My older brother and I argue about this. He's done most of his driving in RWD vehicles. I've done most of my driving in FWD vehicles. So he prefers RWD in the snow, and I prefer FWD in the snow. But an Audi S5 with winter tires is better.
There was a guy that drove an S2000 year round. Many pics of him on the internet cruising with the top down in the winter as he never puts the top up. Partly does it to get attention to those without heat in the winter.
I love my 4WD Chevrolet truck with a G80 locking rear differential in the winter. It's all about the tires and skills.
I should add that I'm a fellow Mainer. I grew up in "The County."
Sorry dude, the weight only transfers to the rear of the car when “actually accelerating.” No weight transfer happens just spinning your wheels when there is no traction.
That helps my case. Any acceleration with any traction at all will move weight to the rear. It is exacerbated in low traction situations. You just don’t feel it as much in a fwd car but it’s still happening.
@ No, I don’t think it helps your case at all, because a RWD, front engine car won’t get anywhere near enough traction from regular tires to shift any weight, or at least not nearly enough weight to gain enough traction to get up a snowy hill from a stop.
Have always owned pickups. Mostly compacts. I would shovel the driveway into the bed of the pickup. Living in the Baltimore area or Warren, Ohio. With good snow grips, would get around.
Front wheel drive for the majority of people is better because the weight is over the tires - however I absolutely appreciate a rear wheel drive car in the snow for the fun factor and I currently have all wheel drive because it’s all around better.
My ram 1500 2WD is worthless in the winter well when there’s snow on the ground. I would pick FWD every time but I’m spoiled with AWD 🎉
100% agree that RWD is better than FWD. Although the lack of driving skills argument I don't really agree on. I can throw my Golf around the corner using liftoff oversteer. Is a RWD going to be quicker? Yes, it can stay on the power through a corner, I can't in FWD.
Found a brand new c7 in a snow bank on I680 at about 4am on my way to work the last time we had a blizzard in NE Ohio. Had temp tags so I assume it had summer tires. Not sure what he was thinking getting on 680 let alone any road at the time. It took 4wd low to get out of my driveway. I absolutely HATE the winter but I love to drive in snow. Just hate being cold.
My wife's car is a rwd Polestar 2. EV's make this discussion easier. All EV's have most of the weight between the tires. The motor is where the drive wheels are. Winter tires are still the most important factor.
I've run four studded snows on every car I've owned, FWD, RWD, and AWD. Know what works best? Having four snow tires, since stopping and steering are as important as going.
ding ding ding
Saving rwd sports cars from the salty winters is enough of a reason to not even try. Buy a winter beater. Most people won't want to swap tires twice a year or buy winter rims and tires.
what are we saving them for? I prefer to enjoy my entire driving life, not just half of it.
This argument doesn’t make any sense. The question is which vehicle is better in the snow front wheel drive or rear wheel drive. The question is not what driver is better in the snow. The driver skill doesn’t have anything to do with the question that’s being asked.
If you have two skilled drivers, which all drivers should be, RWD is better than FWD.
@ That doesn’t matter because the average driver isn’t skilled. Driver skill level is irrelevant in this question.
Because I can put an unskilled driver in a 911 with snow tires on it and I will guarantee you they will be in a ditch .
@@Teezeboy Which begs another, more important question: Why are we giving unskilled drivers a license? If you can't move a RWD car with snow tires in the snow, you shouldn't have a license to drive on public roads.
@@switchcars Again that doesn’t make any sense. If I live in Southern California, Arizona , or Nevada why in the world would I need to know how to drive and snow?
@@Teezeboy You've never gotten a snowstorm in Arizona or Nevada? Because I certainly have, and I don't even live there. Well, I lived in Nevada for a while. But anyway, the driving dynamics are the same - snow just slows everything down because it's less traction. Being able to handle oversteer/understeer and weight transfer is universally applicable.
Another great winter car is a VW Dasher with the rear engine, rear drive.
Brilliant and correct. Thank you Doug.
I’ll say RWD wins with the caveat it either needs to have some kind of limited slip or locking diff out back or be something substantially heavy if it’s an open diff. Nothing quite as awful as a featherweight RWD vehicle with one wheel drive on snow. Limited slip helps make handling more predictable too
Not sure what traction control is, but I got a 96 single cab ford ranger with a welded diff and 2 80 lbs bags of sand in the bed. "S-no problem"
Doug discovered that dislikes also promote videos lol this discussion deserves to be on a political channel. It digs into a deeper debate about privileged humanity in the modern world.
Doug needs a second channel just responding to currents events outside of the car community.
Fun video. Have had same argument with buddies. Newer 997.1 2S owner and need winter tires. What do you recommend? Running PS4S now.
I would take FWD over RWD in the snow every day. If the front tires are sliding around a corner, I'd like them to be pulling the way I'm turning rather than being pushed into the ditch.
Since I had to sleep in my car during the Atlanta ice apocalypse I saw first hand how bad rwd can be. Most of the awd cars were able to make it home if they weren't blocked in by all the rwd cars and trucks in the south. I understand this is a big anomaly but the facts are against the rwd take.
Actually... (Don't you hate it when a sentence starts that way)? Two points:
1- Pretty much every car is all-wheel stop.
2- Depending on drive line and differentials some AWD or 4WD systems will stop a bit better in slippery conditions as the system can help back-drive wheels that might have locked up.
I think the big "it depends" in this argument is that for the vast majority of drivers a FWD vehicle is the best snow vehicle. It won't give false confidence in available traction that an AWD system might (also,no lift-off oversteer), it will accelerate better than RWD, and the tendency to understeer is safer than a RWD's tendency to oversteer.
Also, the weight transfer to the driven wheels in a RWD car is dependent on acceleration to provide weight transfer. Acceleration tends to be hard to come by in slippery conditions.
For the driver with some skill and who's looking for fun RWD or AWD (power slides even on a relatively low powered car anyone? Oh, and with snow flying up from the tires as you slide to unleash your rally driver fantasies) can be fun (and good practise on the effects of weight transfer, throttle, and steering inputs on vehicle control) in the winter.
You're right RWD is the best in the snow. 2wd Pickups do awesome in snow.
That’s a weight distribution issue right there. 4wd pickups are just as bad, as they can so easily lose traction on the rear wheels and come around on people. Especially during braking.
Hands down front wheel drive only have to chain up one set of tires if it was rear wheel drive you still need a set of chains to steer it
Good luck when you have oversteer
@@switchcarsyou could just add throttle to straighten it out? and it wouldn't be any worse than oversteer in a rwd.
A blanket statement that RWD is better in the snow is ridiculous! Back in early 90’s, I had an ‘83 Mazda RX7 sitting on almost brand new M+S rated Bridgestone Potenza tires that literally couldn’t get moving from a stop on flat ground in the snow, without me opening the door and pushing it. At the exact same time, my roommate’s Acura Integra, sitting on old, off brand tires that were not M+S rated could drive around in the same snow, almost effortlessly. Also at the same time, my other roommate was driving a 70’s VW Bug that drove so well in the snow that we took turns driving the Bug in the snow, pulling an air mattress by a rope through the neighborhood while the others guys rode on the mattress.
After that experience, I swore off vehicles that didn’t have AWD or 4WD (unless it was rear engine). I’ve easily made it up Seattle logging hills with nearly bald, all season, off brand tires in an AWD Kia SUV, and live on a hill that’s that steep. Every time it snows, I go up the hill without a problem, regardless of the tires. AWD and 4WD make a massive difference in the snow. Not for braking of course, but unless the vehicle is rear engine like a Porsche, you’re not getting up a snowy hill without studs or chains with RWD.
“All things being equal” I stand behind my statement.
@@switchcarsbut all things can’t be equal. Rear wheel, rear engine cars are so rare, it’s almost silly to even bring them up in this context. The vast majority of cars are either front motor, FWD, or front motor RWD. In every case, the RWD on regular tires is stuck in place (without adding sand bags to the trunk) anywhere but Kansas and the FWD can go wherever it wants on almost any tires, without changing the weight distribution.
@@1djtraxxI disagree. But that’s ok I called that I was wrong by popular vote from the start.
Less power is also better than more power. My 4runner with 100whp is way safer in snow drifting than my Audi a3 with 3X the power. And the Audi has snow tires
During the January icepocalypse of 2014, I was coming back home to the south side of Atlanta from Indiana. I wasn't listening to the news on the radio or the weather in any way. 🤦🏼♂️🤣
I was in a Chrysler Town & Country minivan. It took me FIVE HOURS to get through Atlanta from midnight to five A.M.
I took only the surface streets that I thought I could make it up or down. I did NOT go up or down any major hills or slopes. I passed cops who were stuck on the road while I was driving in the median areas😂 They just looked at me dumbfounded. 😂😂😂
I made it home to Griffin, Georgia. I think the roads got bad up in Kennesaw. NOT ONE TIME, did I get stuck or need help. It's more about the driver than the car in MOST situations. I grew up going mudding on dirt bikes, 4 wheelers, and in my old trucks and cars. I had a genuine knowledge of traction. I was also 34 years old, and I wasn't about to get stuck in downtown Atlanta with no food, gas, or shelter.
I’m guessing you also had snow tires
@switchcars no, I did not. I had no idea there was weather coming in. I was at a funeral in Madison, Indiana. I didn't know there would be bad weather until I got almost back into Georgia. I also didn't know Atlanta was shut entirely down and was a metropolitan parking lot. 🤣
sweet new video wooot wooot wooot
it dont snow here
Best case is my 03 Tahoe with 2,4, auto .
Tahoe has the good rear weight in the tires
No, 911s don't have a 50/50 weight distribution. They behave will in low-friction conditions because they have more weight over the driven tires. Agreed? The the same argument can be made for front wheel drive cars that are front heavy. In that case, more of the weight is ALSO over the driven tires.
Also, front wheel drive does not inherently mean a car can't spin around.
Basically, it is impossible to claim that one drive layout is inherently better than the other, because there are a lot of variables involved besides just drive layout.
PS - Anybody who did NOT spend their teen years doing doughnuts in the snow, late at night in an empty parking lot, is somebody who I don't trust to drive me around in winter conditions.
It is possible to make the claim in principle with all things being equal.
@@switchcars Okay sure, but all things are NOT equal in reality.
@@xtnuser5338while that is true, it is a required baseline for a comparison. You can’t argue a comparison based on things being equal by introducing non-equal variables.
@@switchcars Nobody "introduced" all the unequal variables. They just exist. So based on your words, it is impossible to make a comparison. Which was my point exactly: you can't just say one is better than the other without a whole lot of qualifications being put on the claim.
I'd never be able to drive my BMW K1100RS in the snow if it was FWD. But getting snow tires on it has been troublesome.
I’m tempted to ride my k1200 GT in the snow but with its weight I’m not looking forward to picking it up when I drop it lmfao 😂
@@dronepilot260rc It actually wasn't that bad besides getting pelted by those pesky salt/sand trucks.
This guy daily drives an S550 Mustang all winter….snow tires make it fairly easy.
Went to buy snow tires for my 996 and found out none are available in my required size. Trying to decide if I put my aged out tires on, or just not drive this winter.
Real issue with driving a car in the winter in NE Ohio is SALT!
Look at tire sizes that are "close enough". I'm sure something will be available.
@ I’ll look again. Was putting it off because of all the other car related expenses I have had this year.
What about if you drive one of the rivian vans with the smile? We don't even get AWD. 😂
They live somewhere flat.
Front wheel drive was designed for packaging, not for winter driving.
Could you elaborate, packaging?
And not entirely correct. Before the SUV craze, most of the cars in Western NY were FWD intentionally because they're safer to drive for "uneducated" drivers in the winter. Simply letting off the throttle stops you from sliding. With AWD, you have the capability of handling it to get it out, but it's multiple points off potential traction make it better, especially with winter tires -- but none of that can truly save you if you just don't know how to drive in the winter.
I'd argue any drive is good in the winter, and winter tires aren't even necessary, if you just know how to drive in the winter.
@@itsJoshW sure - the front wheel drive concept is as old as the car itself, and there are two main advantages : packaging and traction due to weight. I'll just talk to packaging, since I said it was the reason for the design. I was thinking of the Mini when I said "packaging", but the same concept can be seen in the 2CV, the Traction Avant, the Fiat 500and others. Putting the transmission and engine ahead of the passenger compartment allows for a flat floor, eliminates some compromises in the design and allows for a more compact design. Look at the slew of front wheel drive compact cars from the late 70's and 80's - they all have the compact transmission and engine in a box on the front, then a flat area for seating and a hatchback in the rear. When you compare them to the rear wheel drive compact cars like the Gremlin or the Chevette, there is more space in the passenger compartment and a overall better use of the space available.
But with more research, I have to retract my comment. It was seen as offering both better traction and better packaging each time a manufacture introduced it. I do agree with your point that driver skill matters. And that the manufactures sold them as better in the snow to anyone living in a area with snow during the wave of new front wheel drive hatchbacks in the 80's. I recall a lot of derision about front wheel drive versus rear wheel drive in terms of performance driving at the time, mainly dealing with weight transfer to the rear under acceleration.
Not in the case of Saab, who used a longitudinal FWD for decades for the claimed winter driving benefits over then RWD based rival Volvo. Moreover FWD was designed because it was novel, the first FWD cars, Citroen Traction Avant and Cord 810 were luxury cars and came nearly 25 years prior to the packaging innovation that was the original Mini.
My guess for “Jeep Klr” was a Hummer H1. A Bronco Sport is so lame. I mean I guess it could be a Jeep Compass Killer, but we know he was implying it’s better than a Wrangler.
The golf lessons analogy doesn't work because many normie drivers who absolutely suck think they are great drivers.
My honda insight sucks in snow because it predictably understeers.
you must be from newengland rhode island because NOBODY can drive in the snow or anything unless your from the midwest then you can handle snow and everything els. #fromthemidwest #rhodeislandsucks
I agree with Doug wholeheartedly. At least 75% of people who drive should not
Awd stops better, you can gear down to slow the car using all 4 wheel (quattro) not haldex or other fwd base systems , instead of using front brakes which will trigger abs. fwd is better then rwd in snow, spent my youth in mk2 gti without snow tires, frends bmw e30 and 944 wouldn't move. Rwd with limited slip and snow tires is fun,, but limited as the snow gets deeper. 35 years driving in the snow in Canada. My 2000 Audi b5 1.8t manual on skinny 16 inch will take down any porsche, especially Carrera 4s. To heavy and tires are to wide.
Nice episode. When it snows in the south people lose their minds and completely forget how to drive
That's Ohio too, the first 2-3 snows of every winter.
@ same here last winter with that big Arctic front in January everything was shut down for 2 weeks because we don’t have the plows or road maintenance crews to deal with it
Fwd with winter grips is better then rwd with winter grips .
Snow tires. RWD w/LSD. Manual. No traction control.
FOREVER!
FWD is only better for people who can't figure out how to drive and should be riding a bus instead of driving a vehicle. The only reason FWD even exists in the first place is to create a larger profit margin for manufacturers. Its the cursed drivetrain layout.
RWD!!!! Way more fun
Front wheel drive is objectively better on snow. This video is idiotic.
Explain why. Please use physics/driving principles, not anecdotes.
Bad faith argument and I hope your kept up a little a night for dropping this.
Apparently neither of you has owned a truck where you can instantly know which is better
Or I’m sure some engineering nerds will come in here. Pulling from the front will always create a more consistent line of travel than pushing from the back.
Yes I will accept there are certain situations where rear will can save you but front wheel cannot. However you will get there without problems 9 out 10 with front and 7-10 rear
I'll sleep well tonight, as long as I make it home in my RWD car :)
Nicely put. All in good fun.
And for FUN I’d rather have a RWD in the snow, but if I needed to be somewhere it’s be AWD or 4WD
SCCA ICE trials bear this out. AWD and 4wd wins hands down
Nope, FWD in snow or gravel is better than RWD. Rally driver would prefer RWD on road but FWD in slippery surfaces, not rain but gravel/dirt/snow.
If you can't drive a fwd better in the snow than a RWD car it's because you don't know how to drive it. So if you learn how to drive and put winter tires on a sporty FWD car it's amazing.
Throttle off oversteer around a corner in the snow is amazing.
But I'd make do with RWD because it's better all other times.
Throttle off oversteer works with any drive - it’s another function of weight transfer. Has nothing to do with which wheels are driving the car.
@switchcars very true but just meshes better with how the front wheels pull you through the corner and counters the oversteer with understeer, especially if there is a little ditch or grove on the inside of the corner to hook to.
@@dhyskRand I don't like understeer, at all, ever, in any scenario. Oversteer is manageable, understeer is just bad, period.
In fact, full time AWD and 4WD do stop faster, tires being equal. ua-cam.com/video/EMnT1gCYjP8/v-deo.html
A 944 is the absolute best car I’ve ever driven in the snow. Absolutely wonderful.
4WD does seem to improve snow braking.....see Team O'neil test.