I like forklift batteries. One forklift battery at c6 rating @ 540 amp hr. Is 25900 watts and I am at float at 10 in the morning. That's using two fridges and forced air heater. During the daytime nothing comes out of the battery. Washing clothes and dish washer micro wave electric coffee maker 1/2 horse pump for water three tv's. No problem. Pannels are 8-250 watts. Been off grid for 28 yrs.
Has anyone had success in using Nissan Leaf batteries? Seems they are pretty cheap. 48v 14kwh for 1500. Just wondering if it is doable with the sol-ark?
from what I understand most of the Nissan Leaf batteries you will find at that price are advertising the Original kWh and not the kWh rating you are purchasing . In a recent review they found only about 380 watt hours instead of 500 watt hours per battery available when purchased, so only 76 percent of the original which also means they may be wearing out quicker at this point so not only less capacity but also many less recharge cycles left in them. Some found only about 50 percent capacity left see review by jesus garcia. ua-cam.com/video/FlCz40bCZZM/v-deo.html
So LFP's don't like "near 32 degrees". Does that mean that anything above or below 32 degrees is no problem? (-5 degrees F is fine and 110 degrees F is fine?) Stated rather strangely in you presentation.
How am I looking?? I've purchased (4) Forklift battery banks. Each is 24v 1600AH and they're about 1700lbs each for a 48v system. I'll be hooking them up parallel and Ceres, how many cycles should I get??
Those are much better/heavier lead batteries than most people get. If you stay at 30% DOD/70% SOC, you can likely get ~4000+ cycles. The biggest cost with wet cells is the 80% round trip efficiency = up sizing the solar array.
I would suggest you state the actual voltage of the battery bank for your inverter in the inverter table. You might, also, want to provide written advantages or disadvantages of working with these voltages.
Voltages can very with all battery configurations. Individual cells are 3.2V in lithium for the most part and you can run series or parallel for anything from 12-48V systems.
I thought the Sol-Ark has a built-in inverter - that goes up to 12KW. Why do you have two inverters? Can the same switching be accomplished with only a Sol-Ark device? How does switching occur when grid comes back up? Does your setup send excess generated power to grid so that you can get paid for it?
Having worked on Sonnen batteries, their tech has come a long way. The newer units are far more reliable and the ability to change out components is fantastic when compared to Tesla or LG.
Where do you get the idea that Tesla powerwall 2 must be purchased in minimum of two? You are confusing the Powerpack , a commercial battery, with the residential battery.
That is the American site. On the Canadian site they allow 1 powerwall. But ya, that is weird that in the U.S. two powerwalls are minimum. Even weirder is that most people can't even get one...let alone two!@@Sol-Ark
50% DOD is a very misleading standard. FLA's need that or their cycle life is dogmeat. OTOH NiFe and LFP batteries flourish on use of 80% of their rated capacity. That invalidates all economic comparisons contained herein.
With additional purchased test results on lithium and price reductions, we agree LFP is the better choice for daily cycling now. We only recommend PCC's in backup or EMP Hardened situations.
Very informative, thank you! I do have a question: For LFP, do you have any insight into how reliable a Battle Born or Simpliphi BMS system is, and how well those brands work with the SolArk 8k? You mentioned the two types of BMS, but I would like to know what major brands carry the passive BMS which you prefer. This isn't the type of think that tends to make its way onto a spec sheet. Thanks in advance
After spending >$200K just on test batteries of all types, we wanted to share so families don't make mistakes on such a big investment. You really have to buy large LFP batteries (10-15KWh+) that can supply large amps to find passive BMS's. The small ones are almost always active FET based, which does not necessarily make them bad (you can look at continuous & peak power to get an idea). I know nothing about Battle Born. Feel free to ask any vendor. People and installers have used Sol-Ark 8K with Simpliphi, KiloVault, Fortress, and other LFP solutions.
Thanks for your overall view, it’s very insightful. Obviously I’ve learned that I have too few batteries in my system. I wonder what the ratio is for how many Kw batteries versus how many solar panels/kilowatts you need - 3to 1?
Your panels will produce 4 to 5X their rated power in 1 good day. So 10KWpv = 45KWh of power/day. Most of our power consumption is in the evening and night. So I like 70% x 45KWh = 31KWh of battery. So the Batt is 3X the rating of the panels and inverter. If you face some panels SE and some SW, you will be off the batts much sooner and lower the 70% to something like 60%. And if you do some preheating of water or precooling of your bedrooms during the day, you can drop that 60% to 50%. Most installs skimp on the batteries because it is the #1 expense of an ESS system.
@@Sol-Ark Thank you so much for your answer! I am learning as I go. I have six 100 amp hour 12V Battle Born Batteries. Just ordered two more. As I slowly learn and find my way into building a decent system. I have 5.5 kW of solar. Living in the Pacific Northwest is an extreme challenge. As I learn more about the overall system, if I had to do it over again I would go with your company. But I wanted to learn about it so I decided to do it myself. To be honest the biggest reason was I couldn’t afford you! 😜 So I had to add to my system when I can. I use Victron 3000 inverter and 2 250 charge controllers. If I could find something to charge my batteries at night, it would be a game changer! Thanks again.
@@benjones8977 wind power worx at nite…Some areas,such as near a lake or the Ocean,are very windy consistently. Also,the Max wind needed for Wind Generators is 28 knots/ M.P.H.
@@billygoldberg140 Yes, but I don’t live in those kind of conditions and rarely get any wind, not to mention that regulations would prevent me from going 30 feet in the air or higher!
Strange... LFP batteries have never been more expensive than NMC. LFP are by far the cheapest, safest and longer lasting batteries on the marker. The only weakness of LFP is low charge/discharge rate in subzero temperature.
Good question. I will have to review the video again. And we need to redo this video with all the new technology out there. One of the weakest links in the LFP battery is the electronic BMS. It often fails long before the cells.
So what battery do you recommend now? I see several comments saying you were going to do an updated video. Is there a good battery for ongrid and off-grid? We plan on being ongrid but maybe going completely off at some point. Can you throw some name brands out there that are good?
Tesla batteries no longer shuts down if the internet goes down. If you deliberately turn of the internet you lose the warranty. Texas was 6 minutes from having nearly the whole state go down during the February 2021 freeze. I'm told by my friend - who is the local electric coop manager - that ERCOT said it would've taken nearly a month to get the state's grid fully back up. IOW a Tesla could be out of internet service for weeks.
I know Aquion is still coming out of bankruptcy, but how does their battery technology fare against carbon AGM or Lithion? Being able to discharge to 0% without damage (although I’ve never seen one in the wild) should have some major efficiency gains.
We work with 41-59V flow batteries. The VoltStorage can only put out 1.5KW of power per battery, so you will need 6 of them for 9KW. And unfortunately, they are an AC Coupled battery only for time of use. Not an off grid battery. RedFlow is a 48V battery, so we can work with it. You will need 3 x 3KW of power for 9KW. Keep in mind that flow batteries have poor round trip efficiency (80%). So you will need to upsize your PV array by 18% more than PCC or Lithium batteries that lose only 2%. Cost of that is ~$7200. So do your math to see if flow batteries are cost effective.
I believe you are correct because the guild can be changed, but we are not experts on flow batteries. So far, flow battery round trip efficiency has been like wet cells: 80% = not good. Hope they improve.
Can a 230v inverter output leg be split so I run a feed into a 110v step down transformer so then into a separate fuse board/breaker panel as a permanent solution to having both 110 & 230 permanently available to the property?
How about Lithium Titanate batteries? (Lithium LTO) that is said to have extremely long life cycle (30,000+) and supports fast charging that can be fed for up to 150A
@@Sol-Ark Imagine feeding it 200amps of power, filling 1000ah of battery in an hour at peak times. So much potential... for starters you can check Toshiba's SCiB.
I bought 2 controllers for 17.99 off amazon. I can make them do that smart load option, plus relays. If I could afford sol-ark you betcuh! But I'm forced to DIY the entire setup.... But great video, I hope it goes good for you guys!
Battery cycles are variables. Some of the info isn't correct and very much user and use. Say you have X solar array mean little and is the last thing on the list. A 20KWh per day user, is going to split the power in and power out over the battery and then the array to soften the day use and supply night use. Now the battery yield is based on amps out, which should be divided by the set/pack. The load therefore is effective on the pack life. Higher load on less cells is never good. It would be interesting volts over amps in life span.
You need to find led cristal batteries also new technology 3000 cycles and dont freeze or burn very good of grid cold country Canada no asid have 2 very good bit pricey also can discharge to 0 no damage
Very good deep dive into battery tech. Question what about Ultra batteries these incorporate carbon in the negative plate which functions as a integrated ultra capacitor. Research reveals Ultra batteries to be a real thing they appear to have very long live 10,000 plus deep cycles and some other benefits otherwise they are like lead acid. The problem is I have not found a manufacture that will sell individual batteries and I want them. for information on this look here ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraBattery
We have looked at the Ultrabattery and Penn is a very reputable company. And they put a BMS on each battery to help maintain health. All good thick plate carbon AGM's (like our PCC batteries) work as an Ultracapacitor. I do not believe Penn guarantees they last 10,000 cycles. More like 3,000-4000 but they prefer to quote energy throughput. We love their battery and company, just 2-3X cost of PCC.
I like forklift batteries. One forklift battery at c6 rating @ 540 amp hr. Is 25900 watts and I am at float at 10 in the morning. That's using two fridges and forced air heater. During the daytime nothing comes out of the battery. Washing clothes and dish washer micro wave electric coffee maker 1/2 horse pump for water three tv's. No problem. Pannels are 8-250 watts. Been off grid for 28 yrs.
what if you add wind power to the system for 24 hour charging possibilities
This is great. I'd love to see a new version of this.
Have you heard about liquid iron (metal) batteries? Any plans of ideas to include them in up and coming systems?
My DIY LiFePo4 battery can handle 400amps, is 28KW, and cost me $4000 to build.
Has anyone had success in using Nissan Leaf batteries? Seems they are pretty cheap. 48v 14kwh for 1500. Just wondering if it is doable with the sol-ark?
from what I understand most of the Nissan Leaf batteries you will find at that price are advertising the Original kWh and not the kWh rating you are purchasing . In a recent review they found only about 380 watt hours instead of 500 watt hours per battery available when purchased, so only 76 percent of the original which also means they may be wearing out quicker at this point so not only less capacity but also many less recharge cycles left in them. Some found only about 50 percent capacity left see review by jesus garcia. ua-cam.com/video/FlCz40bCZZM/v-deo.html
So LFP's don't like "near 32 degrees". Does that mean that anything above or below 32 degrees is no problem? (-5 degrees F is fine and 110 degrees F is fine?) Stated rather strangely in you presentation.
Your webinar (despite my other comments) was excellent. 👍
Has anyone in "You Tube Land" used a flow battery with Sol Ark? If so how did it work?
When are you going to expand and make a 24volt inverter, let me know cause I’m down right now to get one maybe two.
How am I looking?? I've purchased (4) Forklift battery banks. Each is 24v 1600AH and they're about 1700lbs each for a 48v system. I'll be hooking them up parallel and Ceres, how many cycles should I get??
Those are much better/heavier lead batteries than most people get. If you stay at 30% DOD/70% SOC, you can likely get ~4000+ cycles. The biggest cost with wet cells is the 80% round trip efficiency = up sizing the solar array.
I would suggest you state the actual voltage of the battery bank for your inverter in the inverter table.
You might, also, want to provide written advantages or disadvantages of working with these voltages.
Voltages can very with all battery configurations. Individual cells are 3.2V in lithium for the most part and you can run series or parallel for anything from 12-48V systems.
I thought the Sol-Ark has a built-in inverter - that goes up to 12KW. Why do you have two inverters? Can the same switching be accomplished with only a Sol-Ark device?
How does switching occur when grid comes back up? Does your setup send excess generated power to grid so that you can get paid for it?
Having worked on Sonnen batteries, their tech has come a long way. The newer units are far more reliable and the ability to change out components is fantastic when compared to Tesla or LG.
Tess Electric batteries work great too. Which case is able to be disassembly for easy repair in future. Half the price vs other brands.
Where do you get the idea that Tesla powerwall 2 must be purchased in minimum of two? You are confusing the Powerpack , a commercial battery, with the residential battery.
Their own online tool will not allow less then 2 Powerwall2. But maybe they make exceptions.
That is the American site. On the Canadian site they allow 1 powerwall. But ya, that is weird that in the U.S. two powerwalls are minimum. Even weirder is that most people can't even get one...let alone two!@@Sol-Ark
local companies here in Ga are giving me quotes with just 1 powerwall
50% DOD is a very misleading standard. FLA's need that or their cycle life is dogmeat. OTOH NiFe and LFP batteries flourish on use of 80% of their rated capacity. That invalidates all economic comparisons contained herein.
With additional purchased test results on lithium and price reductions, we agree LFP is the better choice for daily cycling now. We only recommend PCC's in backup or EMP Hardened situations.
I was told by an actual installer that Li batteries couldn’t be EMP hardened . Has Sol-Ark overcome this discrepancy…& how ?
Very informative, thank you! I do have a question: For LFP, do you have any insight into how reliable a Battle Born or Simpliphi BMS system is, and how well those brands work with the SolArk 8k? You mentioned the two types of BMS, but I would like to know what major brands carry the passive BMS which you prefer. This isn't the type of think that tends to make its way onto a spec sheet. Thanks in advance
After spending >$200K just on test batteries of all types, we wanted to share so families don't make mistakes on such a big investment. You really have to buy large LFP batteries (10-15KWh+) that can supply large amps to find passive BMS's. The small ones are almost always active FET based, which does not necessarily make them bad (you can look at continuous & peak power to get an idea). I know nothing about Battle Born. Feel free to ask any vendor. People and installers have used Sol-Ark 8K with Simpliphi, KiloVault, Fortress, and other LFP solutions.
@@Sol-Ark thanks for the great info!
Thanks for your overall view, it’s very insightful. Obviously I’ve learned that I have too few batteries in my system.
I wonder what the ratio is for how many Kw batteries versus how many solar panels/kilowatts you need - 3to 1?
Your panels will produce 4 to 5X their rated power in 1 good day. So 10KWpv = 45KWh of power/day. Most of our power consumption is in the evening and night. So I like 70% x 45KWh = 31KWh of battery. So the Batt is 3X the rating of the panels and inverter. If you face some panels SE and some SW, you will be off the batts much sooner and lower the 70% to something like 60%. And if you do some preheating of water or precooling of your bedrooms during the day, you can drop that 60% to 50%. Most installs skimp on the batteries because it is the #1 expense of an ESS system.
@@Sol-Ark
Thank you so much for your answer! I am learning as I go. I have six 100 amp hour 12V Battle Born Batteries. Just ordered two more. As I slowly learn and find my way into building a decent system. I have 5.5 kW of solar. Living in the Pacific Northwest is an extreme challenge.
As I learn more about the overall system, if I had to do it over again I would go with your company. But I wanted to learn about it so I decided to do it myself. To be honest the biggest reason was I couldn’t afford you! 😜 So I had to add to my system when I can. I use Victron 3000 inverter and 2 250 charge controllers.
If I could find something to charge my batteries at night, it would be a game changer! Thanks again.
@@benjones8977 wind power worx at nite…Some areas,such as near a lake or the Ocean,are very windy consistently.
Also,the Max wind needed for Wind Generators is 28 knots/ M.P.H.
@@billygoldberg140
Yes, but I don’t live in those kind of conditions and rarely get any wind, not to mention that regulations would prevent me from going 30 feet in the air or higher!
Strange... LFP batteries have never been more expensive than NMC. LFP are by far the cheapest, safest and longer lasting batteries on the marker. The only weakness of LFP is low charge/discharge rate in subzero temperature.
The solark screen doesn't have a graphic for the generator. How much is the generator output?
It replaces the Grid icon when the grid is down and a generator is detected
Hi, nice video! Why is LFP on-grid years lower than off-grid (opposite of all other battery types shown)?
Good question. I will have to review the video again. And we need to redo this video with all the new technology out there. One of the weakest links in the LFP battery is the electronic BMS. It often fails long before the cells.
So what battery do you recommend now? I see several comments saying you were going to do an updated video. Is there a good battery for ongrid and off-grid? We plan on being ongrid but maybe going completely off at some point. Can you throw some name brands out there that are good?
Hello, please find our battery partners here: www.sol-ark.com/battery-partners/
Tesla batteries no longer shuts down if the internet goes down. If you deliberately turn of the internet you lose the warranty. Texas was 6 minutes from having nearly the whole state go down during the February 2021 freeze. I'm told by my friend - who is the local electric coop manager - that ERCOT said it would've taken nearly a month to get the state's grid fully back up. IOW a Tesla could be out of internet service for weeks.
I know Aquion is still coming out of bankruptcy, but how does their battery technology fare against carbon AGM or Lithion? Being able to discharge to 0% without damage (although I’ve never seen one in the wild) should have some major efficiency gains.
The installers we know who tried that battery reported lots of strange charge & discharge characteristics. They said it was too challenging to use.
What is super capacitor battery? What is the deference between LiFePo4 battery and super capacitor battery?
Capacitors store energy as electricity unlike batteries.
Tess electric battery's bms board has a capacitor. They support 200A Maximum discharge. Half the price vs battleborn
Tesla battery internal voltage?
How well will the Sol Ark work with Flow batteries?(Example new German Vanadium VoltStorage, also RedFlow Zinc Bromide flow battery)
We work with 41-59V flow batteries. The VoltStorage can only put out 1.5KW of power per battery, so you will need 6 of them for 9KW. And unfortunately, they are an AC Coupled battery only for time of use. Not an off grid battery.
RedFlow is a 48V battery, so we can work with it. You will need 3 x 3KW of power for 9KW. Keep in mind that flow batteries have poor round trip efficiency (80%). So you will need to upsize your PV array by 18% more than PCC or Lithium batteries that lose only 2%. Cost of that is ~$7200. So do your math to see if flow batteries are cost effective.
Thanks so much for your reply! It's very evident I have a lot more to learn about batteries( not understanding the 41-59 V use.
Another question, I though the big plus for flow batteries was they could be drained below 50% with no harm?
I believe you are correct because the guild can be changed, but we are not experts on flow batteries. So far, flow battery round trip efficiency has been like wet cells: 80% = not good. Hope they improve.
will you make a 230v 50Hz inverter ?
It already works for 230V and 50Hz.
Can a 230v inverter output leg be split so I run a feed into a 110v step down transformer so then into a separate fuse board/breaker panel as a permanent solution to having both 110 & 230 permanently available to the property?
How about Lithium Titanate batteries? (Lithium LTO) that is said to have extremely long life cycle (30,000+) and supports fast charging that can be fed for up to 150A
Sorry we don’t know this technology. It’s not mainstream, but will check out. Thanks
@@Sol-Ark Imagine feeding it 200amps of power, filling 1000ah of battery in an hour at peak times. So much potential... for starters you can check Toshiba's SCiB.
@@leotheevinci LTO works more like a capacitor, I found in my studies it loses charge over time.
@@6969smurfy let's just hope for the best that technology gets better. What we really need is long lifespan...
@@leotheevinci I am checking in on Edison Batteries,
15 year guarantee, highest on market.
I bought 2 controllers for 17.99 off amazon. I can make them do that smart load option, plus relays. If I could afford sol-ark you betcuh! But I'm forced to DIY the entire setup.... But great video, I hope it goes good for you guys!
What did u buy and how did it work for you now that its a year later?
Will it survive the Tsar bomb? ;) (Yes, it is a joke... Relax folks)
Old info-prices have decreased alot. Go see SOK
Battery cycles are variables. Some of the info isn't correct and very much user and use.
Say you have X solar array mean little and is the last thing on the list. A 20KWh per day user, is going to split the power in and power out over the battery and then the array to soften the day use and supply night use.
Now the battery yield is based on amps out, which should be divided by the set/pack.
The load therefore is effective on the pack life. Higher load on less cells is never good.
It would be interesting volts over amps in life span.
very good thank you
Thank you for info
Good info and comparisons
Great Video
Pretty cool!
L
Good job!
You need to find led cristal batteries also new technology 3000 cycles and dont freeze or burn very good of grid cold country Canada no asid have 2 very good bit pricey also can discharge to 0 no damage
Very good deep dive into battery tech. Question what about Ultra batteries
these incorporate carbon in the negative plate which functions as a
integrated ultra capacitor. Research reveals Ultra batteries to be a real
thing they appear to have very long live 10,000 plus deep cycles and some
other benefits otherwise they are like lead acid. The problem is I have not
found a manufacture that will sell individual batteries and I want them.
for information on this look here ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraBattery
We have looked at the Ultrabattery and Penn is a very reputable company. And they put a BMS on each battery to help maintain health. All good thick plate carbon AGM's (like our PCC batteries) work as an Ultracapacitor. I do not believe Penn guarantees they last 10,000 cycles. More like 3,000-4000 but they prefer to quote energy throughput. We love their battery and company, just 2-3X cost of PCC.