I like how Clive didn't try to redeem or make amends with Hugo at all. They both legitimately wants each other dead. I find that refreshing in a protagonist.
Just generally speaking I love how Clive isn't afraid of killing bad people. After playing a lot of FF14, which has gotten so afraid of even mentioning death, it's great.
I don't think it could've gone any other way. Like, I'm not gonna be able to sympathize with a spoiled asshole who's mourning the loss and desecration of another asshole, all the while being wrong about who's even responsible. What took the cake for me, is that Hugo essentially says it was their plan to rule as gods, which to me just sounds like he and Benna wanted to be Sylvestre + Annabella 2.0. I'd pity them for being stupid, but I like Clive's approach better; forget pity, just take out the trash.
I loved the first Hugo fight. Clive just twisting the knife on him by telling him he killed Benedikta instead of being a typical good guy and vindicating himself is one of my favorite tropes. Ben Starr is so good in that scene. “No pity and NO. MERCY.” Badass. The whole sequence leading up to it is dumb and contrived but the fight itself is awesome. It’s like the writers were so excited to have Clive and Hugo fight that they forgot how to make a convincing reason to get to it lol.
I really liked the line Jill says when she kills the patriarch. "May the blessing of crystals go with you", it's a line we have heard people say multiple times by now to wish luck to departing people etc, but here it reads "may the crystals die alongside with you". Great stuff
Liquid Flame is a reference to the Final Fantasy V boss of the same name, it was able to shift between multiple forms as well! I thought it was a really awesome reference!
I personally though Kupka’s plan made sense as for why he didn’t attack Byron and instead attacked “Clive’s House”. It wasn’t about Clive’s house, it’s about his fathers legacy. While Annabella had betrayed Rosaria for the empire, the castle still stood. Elwin’s throne still stood and Kupka made a point to destroy it in front of Clive. “Have you come to defend your fathers throne, Lord Rosfield? The Grand Duchy of Rosaria. A realm without a ruler, an army, or even a people….A veritable kingdom of dust” Everything that Elwin had devoted his life to building up and protecting. Even the torture of the bearers falls into this due to Elwin’s treatment of the bearers being more humane than anywhere else. Elwin’s stance on the bearers is even cemented further in a side quest further on the game. Kupka was destroying the remaining ideals that Elwin had stood for. That’s enough to make a man who already wanted to kill Kupka walk headlong into a known trap out of pure hatred. “No pity. No mercy.”
This also explains why he didnt just kill Jill when he had her by the throat. He need to threaten her to get Clive to allow himself to be shackled. Then he could make her watch Jill get executed, the beavers get executed, the castle destroyed. And once all of that is done and Clive is standing amongst his fathers literal kingdom of dust, then he would kill Clive. Now granted they undermine that by having Jill’s execution happen while Clive is locked in a cell. But maybe he chose to do that so he could then present Clive with her head in a box. I fully admit that this is all speculation since none of it is acknowledged in game, however it does at least provide a path for the events to make more sense and not seem so slapped together lol.
Kupka’s plan makes sense to me when you recall that Byron is not openly affiliated with Cid (Clive) at this point in the story. A large part of why he and the remaining Rosarian nobles enjoy the freedoms they do is because they’re pretending to go along with Anabella’s whims and decrees while doing their own stuff in secret. I thought it safe to assume that if the Imperial Duchess knew that Byron was working with Clive he would suddenly find his work way harder than it used to be. Likely, she would’ve told Kupka herself and Mike’s expectation is exactly what would’ve come to pass. For once, she got outplayed. Edit: As for the rest…I do agree that the rest of his plan was idiotic. But I think it boils down to how believable you find the excuse of his strategic mind being blocked by grief, rage, and possibly even psychosis if some of the later stuff we see is anything to go by. Personally, it didn’t break my suspension but I get why it might’ve broken others.
While Final Fantasy XVI main theme of the Human Will didn't really emotionally resonate with me, i think the theme of love (Yoshi P mentions this as one of the game's main theme) really did it for me in this game. I think of all the final fantasy, this game has the most developed NPC in the series. The game really rewards you for taking your time and listening in and read every possible little detail the game has. I've found so many hidden details about the characters that sometimes I wish the game would put in the forefront of the story.
I found it interesting, how the quest in this game is that of the Villains of earlier FF games. In this game we're going out to destroy the crystals since they're allegedly poisoning the world, where as in the classics, they bring peace and stability to the world, and you are trying to save them from being destroyed by the villians
Like destroying mako Reactors before they suck out the entire essence of the planet and then go fight an ancient alien before it can absorb all the life force of the planet and ride it's corpse through the cosmos. Bar for Bar.
It’s a deliberate and ironic subversion that I appreciate. The tagline of the game is even about the crystals defining the series’ identity for far too long.
They already did the 'not falling for the trap chess game' before the Rosalith arc, it's what the Drake's Breath mission was. It was akin to 'they will expect us to hit Drake's Fang, so instead we do this'.
In regards to Byron being left alone, the whole duchy seems to have a strong sense of duty. The Rosfield's aren't the only families that run the duchy, they are the royal family. Anabella can not risk harming him (cause he pretended to swear fealty to her) or have anything bad happen to him because the other families may take it as a reason to rebel or make it even harder for her and the empire to controll the duchy. So even if she might have wanted him dead, the empire could have told her not to harm him.
Yeah also didnt they mention that he has huge influence over the port or something like that? Id imagine Anabella/ the Empire probably thought it was more beneficial to use him to her advantage rather than just axe him and risk an uprising
I would agree with this but I don't know if there were actually any other influential families within Rosaria. And I mean explicitly stated ones. The game only really gives Byron as the only 'other' influential figure in Rosaria who holds power. I think this logic WOULD be perfectly reasonable and inferred given what we know about the culture of Rosaria, but because the game never elaborates on this specific topic of other influential families, its hard to support your statement.
In addition, it wasn't necessarily the case that you'd exterminate the former ruling family historically. The Byzantines in Greece and the Tudors in England would regularly execute traitors but happily employ their close family into the royal courts. Henry VIII actually executed one traitor then employed his son, who had a successful career serving the king!
I don't think it matters that they are related, they don't know that Clive reunited with him. He has being playing "loyal" to the empire. It matters as much as Anabella being related to Clive, they have no idea that Byron is helping him.
I have a theory as to why the scenario surrounding the Jill execution was so bad, and it has entirely to do with Torgal. I feel like the idea of Torgal being Fenrir, and the protector of Shiva, came about fairly early on in the development of the story, as was Jill being Shiva. There seems to also be this idea of the Eikons taking over the dominants when they're under great stress (similar to how the eidolons awaken in FF13, which I think was a large inspiration for a number of things in this game). This means that they had to come up with a scenario where Jill would need to be saved somehow, but Clive couldn't be the one to save her so Torgal could finally reveal that he was Fenrir. This doesn't make it better, of course, but I really do think this entire thing was created just to show off Torgal's hidden power, and was probably written in kind of a backwards way.
I still don't understand how the Iron Kingdom guys thought they had any chance at fighting an eikon without one of their own. They were so arrogant the entire time as if they had an ace up their sleeve, but if it wasn't for Ultima's liquid flame or whatever that thing was (which surely they didn't know would arrive) there would have been no challenge at all.
He's the most underrated character in the game. I felt like the bond between him and Clive was well done and I could feel his emotions upon realizing his nephew was alive.
Byron and Mid were great together in their few scenes. I don’t think any of the main characters (the ones they show during the credits) were bad. I can’t remember the last FF that pulled that off. Maybe 9? butevery FF since 7 had at least one character universally disliked.
Regarding the Brand, it’s not just an imperial thing. According to the the Thousand Tomes”The Great Nations of Valesthea have a longstanding accord to brand their Bearers in this way, that the slaves might be traded across borders”
God watching them go through this makes me want to see what analysis they would do for all the expansions of Final Fantasy 14....But I know that it would be impossible on this format.
It does make sense for Kupka to believe Cid killed Benedikta. Cid had to prime into Ramuh to stop a rampaging Ifrit and used a giant lightning bolt to do so. Since Ramuh was seen at the battle and was the last Eikon standing reports could assume he stopped Garuda
@@Starmid I'm nearly done with the game now and I can't think of who it was that actually didthat. presumably it was Sanbreque or Waloed agents acting under their leaders but is it ever actually confirmed or just dropped?
Regarding Torgal's magical abilities, I was REALLY suspicious why he was not affected by the Akashic effects when he went with the team to shatter that first crystal. That he was Fenrir/a frost wolf explained that - so there was a hint and it didn't come out of nowhere. Really enjoying these discussions a lot and really appreciate the dive into Jill. I am one of those people struggling to appreciate her, as she seems primarily there for Clive's sake rather than being able to stand on her own.
As much as I've seen people complain about Jill, so much so I think her and Clive's romance is integral to how much I loved this game. Not only her, but Joshua and Gav as well. I really loved the characters and their interactions in the game. Also, Ben Starr did a fenomenal job with the voice of Clive, he definitely has to win some awards for his performance
I really didn't care for their romance because it's sooo "perfect"? Like they never disagree or have a difference of opinion, Jill just agrees with everything Clive says and is his more less pet the whole game.
@@peter123yeah6they kinda did with Jill not wanting Clive going to Kupka and not wanting Joshua to come along in the future but she just doesn't make a scene out of it. I like relationship like that.
I hope you guys spend plenty of time at the end (hopefully a whole episode) going back through your earlier ideas about the themes and predictions to see if they hold up.
I think Jill has the saddest story in all of ff games. She was a princess token from her home , her hometown was token by the blighter . Than when she finally had home she was taken again by hostile nation and all of this before she was 15 and than she is being tortured physically and mentally than they use her as weapon for mass distraction her body starts to be decaying from using magic and finally when she find love it goes away . Never been a fan of girls in video games but Jill she was different great female character and she deserves more love.
I would be really curious to see what Mike makes of Xenoblade 3s Chapter 5 scenario after his reaction here. They really pulled a FFVIII style Rinoa walked off screen and Seifer captured her with Jill during this sequence.
I like Jill, but I do agree with people who criticize her character is that the game sometimes feels like they don't know what to *do* with her. Besides the whole atonement section, she doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I wish she was colder in personality to not only relate to her powers as the Dominant of Shiva, but to her whole lot in life; she was a political hostage at a young age, she was forced into indentured servitude and killed others by command, and she has zero angst over a majority of this. Whenever she's with Clive, she's a bit too well-adjusted; I like their chemistry, but I wish she was more flawed, personally. Additionally, I'd love if she held a lot of resentment towards the Rosfields, keeping up a smiling facade except she genuinely bonded with the brothers. And have her "defrost" so to speak once she and Clive reunite as adults. I felt that would've given her a proper arc, including more of her backstory intertwined with the main plot. I know she's "cursed," but the only times it hampers her also feels too convenient; I was a bit annoyed she couldn't destroy that Mothercrystal, it always has to be Clive.
sad. to think koji fox stated Jill is flawed, but not ‘flawed’ enough (i think to sugarcoat it because of her backstory. Nowadays they give characters backstory to just motivate them but don’t dive deep enough to the depth of what had become of them). Her character is poorly handled and wish they could have done more with her.
That's the main problem of this game. the characters are not flawed. I thought the Ifrit beating of Phoenix was unconscious jealousy of Clive over Joshua taking control or something, but no, clive was just this perfect lovey dovey guy from the beginning till the end of the game and jill (who is also bland) had no way to improve him.
A small correction: Twinside is the former capital of the Crystalline Dominion. The Empire took over and moved their capital to Twinside after losing their historical capital of Oriflamme. So the pillars in Twinside have nothing to do with the Empire, but they *do* have something to do with something else…
People who think Jill is an underdeveloped character are telling on themselves. She has a lot going on but it’s subtly told. Just because she’s not angry and yelling in your face exactly what she’s feeling like Clive it ends up going over a lot of players heads.
@@gijane2cantwaittoseeyou203 "Boring." If you have no attention span just say that. When Clive found out he was Ifrit he's on the verge of suicide and wondering why he's still breathing after all the shit he's done, she reminds him he's not the only one suffering through the same thing. If not for her he might have just killed himself. No impact my ass.
Literally unstoppable force meets an immovable object between Clive and Kupka. Feels like a really vindicating moment for both Clive and the player after the hideout
Hope you guys are doing the side quests, it has great characterizations for pretty much everyone in the hideaway as well as the main characters in the form of written letters!
@@OmbraArt when you say late side quests, do you mean like end game. I have seen a few here and there that have some immportance but nothing deeply connecting to the major story. How ever I just finished the Bahamut fight so I have a good 20% of the game still left.
@@Artimes. right as the other person said we are talking the last side quests. Also keep a lookout on some of the quests of Hypocrates, I believe along with the final quests they will be mentioned. I won't tell you in detail for spoilers but I can say they bring much insight on the main protagonists and their relationships
I love this game, and I enjoy and agree with your criticisms 😂. That's what makes these podcast episodes so good, you can't truly like something if you can't admit to it's flaws.
Boy, do I know the pain of some game or show "stealing" my ideas. Back when I was in high school, I had this idea of a race of people who came from the future to reset events in the past to try to fix some horrible event in their timeline. Not only did Star Trek Voyager jack this idea, they used the same plot device that signaled the people had changed something (chronitons), and the same name for the race with the same spelling--the Krenim. Even the villain's motivations were the same. I'm just sitting there with my friend watching the episode, and every ten minutes he's like, "Dude, they stole your whole idea." Thirty years later and I'm still mad.
the whole Hugo encounter is a microcosm of the game's plot for me. it works on an emotional level(Clive and Hugo facing off was electric), but when you take a second to look at the reasoning behind it all, or on more than just a surface level, it starts to either fall apart, or just be really dumb. I liked the game, but I wouldnt be afraid to call parts of it outright bad.
This game relies heavily on its spectacle to draw you away from its faults and it's worked on so many people. The spectacles in the game also never hold any emotional or thematic weight, they are just made to look cool in general.
Kupka's goal in Rosalith is explicitly to massacre the civilians to draw out Cid, trusting that he would come to defend his home. Exactly why the Men of the Rock are sieging Rosalith and not Port Isolde is made clear. Why Byron isn't a consideration is a fair criticism of strategy but not necessarily character. Anabella, while clearly opportunistic, is never shown to be a clever strategist or to have any militaristic acumen whatsoever. She left Byron alive during her reign as Vicereine which was not a sound decision considering she'd shown no qualms with demoralizing the citizens of Rosaria, so its clear she doesn't consider him to present any degree of threat to her. Particularly since it is addressed that the Empire threatened Byron and permitted him the option to remain in power in return for fealty. Given what we learn about Anabella's motivations and character in Twinside, all of that seems to be consistent with her goal and personality. So while shortsighted, its certainly not out of character for her. Jill's execution is idiotic and pretty conspicuous as that degree of contrivance has not been seen yet in the plot and does not occur again. Kupka's plan extended only so far as to draw Cid from hiding and then confront and kill him. Seizing Jill was simply a turn of good fortune (how convenient...). The same outcome could have occurred in that scene had the writer approached it with a bit more care, having Torgal and Gav split off earlier to scout the keep in anticipation of a trap. The Fenrir deus ex machina scene could have occurred right then, just as Hugo is about to snap Jill's neck in front of Clive, distracting him long enough for Gav, Clive and Jill to free themselves and make a counter attack. Transitioning into the 1v1 with Hugo in the throne room after an extended skirmish showing off Torgal's new move-set. Accomplishing the same objective without the need for the blatant contrivances, character-breaking decisions and jarring pace shift in the middle of what otherwise amounts to a high stakes massacre leading up to a climactic duel. I'm generally very surface-level "ooh pretty explosions, me have happy feel, unga" with games, and even then I was also pretty annoyed at the capture of Jill and subsequent imprisonment. I knew the game was capable of far better as it had proven so many times up to that point so it was particularly frustrating to see. Though generally calm and confident, Kupka is a brute who abuses his power and is not the strategist that Cid, Barnabas or Dion are shown to be. But he also isn't stupid. --- Doing a NG+ playthrough alongside your series and its been great to see all the scenes again with retroactive plot and character knowledge accompanied with both your story analysis and some really awesome music analysis by @MarcoMeatball. Having played every FF game multiple times through since I was a wee brat, this game has quickly become one of my favorites in the series. Good catch from Casen on the Rood Inverse! Not sure if its just coincidence since some of the Vagrant Story team who still work for SE are in CBU3 now but I'd like to think it was a subtle nod to that game. I didn't give Jill enough credit on my first playthrough. I contrasted her too much with Cid and felt there should have been a similar degree of friction between her and Clive following Cid's death. Seeing her progression with a few different perspectives, I've gained a lot more appreciation for her writing and VA's performance.
I am usually an Apple podcast listener but I just wanted to say quickly: I got to know you guys two years ago with your Nier Replicant podcast. I finished your Automata series a few weeks ago with much appreciation. Now I finished the FFXVI game and I am enjoying your weekly thoughts about this new nice game. Most of the time I did not really connect with Jill and was not very happy with the fact that Clive’s childhood friend is surprisingly a dominant, too. I thought it was cheap for the story. But finishing the game and especially hearing your analysis of Jill in this episode changed my view. Jill has a tragic role and is facing the truth of her (not fully understandable) bad actions. Keep up the great work. Thanks
Love the podcast. Just finished my platinum. Really enjoyed my month with this game. Even with its flaws, I’d put this installment up there with 10 in terms of enjoyment mixed with jaw dropping spectacle (I don’t think anything will ever top my first experience with 7, so that’d be unfair). Hope there is a DLC. Expanding on the mystery of Leviathan or something to do with Cid, or better yet both. Cheers!
I don't know why people keep bringing up Leviathan, i am almost at end game, just finished destroying the last mother crystal at the dominion and I still have not seen nothing about that yet. But yeah character specific DLC will help dramatically offset the pacing of the games story and fill in the gaps of peices of the character stories like Jill, Dion, Annabella, and Cid that have kind of only been protrayed through the tomes.
@@Artimes. people bring it up because it’s referred to in the game. “Leviathan the lost” and is one of the Eikons on the mural. If you missed the obvious references so far, I don’t know what to say. Pay attention? If you just destroyed the last mother crystal you’ve seen the mural 2-3 times and have had Joshua reference leviathan the lost. The only reference to leviathan that is easily missed/theorized is the odd looking frozen crystal wrapped in vines (the blight) that you can see to the north from the hideout. When I saw that it told me that Jill’s original family/country and leviathan had something to do with each other or it’s just showing that’s what happened to Jill’s birthplace. Game was supposed to have Alexander in it. They cut him. Leviathan is referenced multiple times in the game. So we will see. Play the Waloed section again when Joshua and Clive split up in the chapter select if you want the blatant reference. When a character openly brings Leviathan up and is an Eikon underneath the vessel in the mural littered throughout the game….
@@fy4b230 Well i destroyed the last mother crystal of storm. I have not ventured into Ash at all yet so maybe thats why? Have not been to waloed yet either. If it has been vaguley referenced through subtle forshadowing in early parts of the game, then i may have missed those if its to vague. But if it becomes more apparent in the very late stages, then in the 2nd playthrough I will most likley pick up on those little vague hints of it early on.
@@fy4b230 when was it mention that Alexander was cut? I only know Yoshi p said Alexander would be too OP for the game story because they can time travel.
@@Rithysak101 I remember reading an interview that they wanted to include Alexander but ultimately couldn’t. Probably because of what you said, so they “cut” him.
I agree the mission is messy, but the actual Clive Vs Kupka fight is honestly my favorite part of the game. The 5 year hatred they had for each other (or the hatred Kupka thought he had for Cid) just exploding at this point was awesome to see
I think you might have under minded the massacre of Rosalith. Kupka and his army seem to be not only destroying buildings "throwing rocks at Clives house" but indiscriminately killing barers, soldiers and citizens alike. You can see their corpses scattered about the city before you get captured. Knowing Clive as we do, I think that is enough to make him charge in head first. Hope yall get a minute to touch on the sick music during the next Ekion battle as well. It deff caught me off guard lol
1:28:05 I never made that connectuon. That's good. Also, Barnabas and Harbard are both there at the beginning of the game with Benedicta and Kupka discussing their troops' involvement.
It was pretty clear to me that Clive had to respond to Kupka's trap. If he didn't, Kupka's private army would continue rampaging across Rosaria, destroying everyone's homes (not just Clive's) and killing all the innocent citizens until he ran out of people to slaughter. Before leaving for Rosalith, Vivian mentioned that evacuations were underway, but apparently not everyone got out in time as evidenced by Gav saying he was going to search for surviving stragglers once your team arrived on site. I didn't even notice the ATL about torturing Bearers. The execution scene was poorly "executed" but Kupka's motive to inflict "eye for an eye" emotional damage on Clive by beheading the woman he loves was very clear. Also, I keep checking my Discord when I hear your notifications.
And it's weird when you notice the fact that once Clive enters the Throne Room the quality of writing goes up exponentially. You can see the one responsible for writing that part changing in real time.
kupka wants to make clive suffer so wants to dish out as much pain as possible, its stupid because hugo is stupid and blinded by his thirst for revenge. he is not playing with a full house of cards.
Agreed on the whole Rosalith Castle portion being probably the dumbest part of the game, but honestly it kind of wrapped around to me enjoying it anyways. Theres something so comically dumb about Clive and Hugo just being so fucking angry at eachother that they just run at eachother from across the continent
I know im like 6 months behold, and really unlikely you guys read this, but I think it makes sense, from the start of the game , I personally was thinking he was “Fenrir” . As for the underground fight at the castle. It just scream entire references to “Knights of the Rounds / Heavenward” , surrounded by Knight statue , and match made for the heaven.
I am glad someone else feels my pain of feeling like this game has somehow siphoned ideas straight from my head before it was ever made 😂 Really been enjoying the review! I just started my second playthrough and the previous episodes are helping me to observe even more on the replay This podcast makes me look forward to Wednesdays every week!
My number one issue with this game, although I sincerely loved it, is that the waypoints showing up on the map in the way they do, extend all across the continent but when you enter the map, it’s just an area with waypoints spread across it, suggesting those waypoints cover the span of the continent. It makes the whole world feel smaller than it appears. I wonder if anyone else has picked up on this? As always, I look forward to this each week, and I am very much appreciating your content!
Ill throw my own thoughts on Jill here. Jill is a character that has spent most of her life hever having true freedom. She was taken in as basically a prisoner of war at a young age to stop the fighting with the northern territories. She even talks about her possible future of simply being married off for political gain, had Rosaria not fallen. She then gets taken prisoner and forced to be an instrument of war for years, and even while being reunited with Clive, Jill still wasn't free from her own guilt. Killing Emreann was the one thing she felt she needed to do, to finally be free of her own guilty conscience, and after that she was finally free of everything the Jill delt bound her, and was finally able to make a choice of her own free will, which was to help Clive.
Clive taking responsibility for killing Benedikta feels very in character. He probably feels he owes the same honesty to her as he does Murdoch and the guys at Phoenix Gate.
I'm glad you guys thought that plan and the story events of the dungeon were whack too lol. I LOST IT when jill got captured. I was like BRO HOWWWWWWWWWWWW 😂😂😂
"Byron is gonna die." For five seconds I was concerned Uncle would betray us. Every moment after I was mourning how they were going to hurt us with him.
Loving this series guys! I wait for it every week and am coincidentally staying around the same place progress wise so it’s adding so much to my play through. Keep up the good work! I’m also going back and watching old episodes (starting with ff8).
Thank you for your interpretation of Jill's character, i still would have liked more from her, but you definitely put her in a better light than i had considered before. So spoilers... I have finished the game, and over the course of it, Jill slowly opens up, and ends up being more warm and friendly with Clive especially, but also with everyone else, more so after this point in the game.
Yeah man, FF16 goes way beyond confronting/integrating shadow. Jill is a wonderful character. She is a true syzygy for Clive. This game also touches on the ego’s correct interaction with the Self. This game sings at times. ❤
In regards to Bearers being despised by society (and the crucifixion scene): there's an interview with some of the cast members on UA-cam where they talk about some of the secrets they had to keep while working on the project, and one thing they mentioned was that Bearers were called "Demonites" in the dummy script. Seems like the writers wanted to equate Bearers to something explicitly sinful, though I'm not sure they went far enough to exposit that point.
I misinterpreted The Lyrics to away "Joshua's theme" as Joshua trying to avoid his duty, but your discussion about the birds in a gilded cage put that in a different perspective. It ends with, A swirling cyclone in the sky Look down to the nether Bid farewell forever Throw open your wings and fly! Away! Away! Away! The Full lyrics. O Prometheus! Ephimetheus Hollos out your noble name! O Prometheus! Ephimetheus Clamors for your stolen flame! Fiery bonds Severed atwain Innocence lost Buried in broken faith A Stormhead fills the horizon Foul shadows whispering ruin Yet from this darkness arises The burning light of a new end Far from heaven, heaven flows Down and down on weary wings borne Carried lower, deep below, from light to shadow Light to shadow! Circled in the strife of an empyreal catastrophe Whorls of ire fan infernal flames on high! Fire in the night A scarlet beacon in the sky Look up to the heavens The firmament reddens Throw open your wings and fly! Away! Away! Away! A stormhead fills the horizon Foul shadows whispering ruin Far from heaven flown Dry your eyes and let your wings fold From the dark light be reborn and rise from shadow Rise from shadow! Circled in the strife of an empyrean catastrophe Tongues of fire incandescent oaths decry! Shadows in the night A swirling cyclone in the sky Look down to the nether Bid farewell forever Throw open your wings and fly! Away! Away! Away!
Jill’s probably my favorite character in the game, so I admit I’m a little biased when I say that the gameplay being Clive (and sometimes Joshua)-centric made the volcano dungeon less effective for me. When she primes to Shiva I was like, “oh heck yeah let’s play as Shiva,” and then she just flies around in the background mostly for the boss fight. Still great story wise for her, but the climax fell flat without being reflected in the gameplay I thought
Unrelated note; I finished Tears of the Kingdom a couple days ago. And I say finished, but what I mean is "I've-been-playing-this-sum-bitch-for-two-months-and-I-found-out-there-is-such-a-thing-as-too-much-of-a-good-thing" Great though. Recommend
The quote "I freed a thousand slaves; I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" is often misattributed to Harriet Tubman, but there is no evidence that she ever said it. The earliest known occurrence of the quote is in a 1946 book called "They Knew They Were Free" by Louis E. Lomax, who attributed it to an unnamed "Negro leader" in the South.
Inderstand the recklessness of Clive going into the trap, even though he had a plan to at least sneak into the capital. But having Hugo just capturing them instead of killing them right there.... I did not understand why he did that. Just to have a more "ceremonial" execution? Things could have gone the same way without the whole "being thrown into a dungeon" thing and just have Torgal become Fenrir to save Jill while Hugo had her.... If they were going to be tortured or interrogated then yeah sure (like in FFVIII when they torture Squall interrogating him) but this one was pointless.
"It's still God out of the Machine..." 100%, esp if you consider the the origin of that phrase from the play Faust by Goethe. God in the first scene makes a wager w/ the devil about how Faust's soul would be worthy of heaven. Mephistopheles then makes a deal w/ Faust to be Faust's servant in his mortal life, so that he would be Mephisto's servant in the afterlife (hell). Well, eventually b/c Faust experiences true remorse, his soul is saved, and a machine contraption on the literal set of the stage represented God, saving him and ushering him to heaven. God's intervention was always a possibility from the very beginning! I think some commentary of Torgal being really attached to Jill and Torgal still being strong and healthy while being an 18 year old pup could have brought some intrigue to him, so that when he did save Jill and powered up we can be appreciate that.
1:04:40 I don't think it matters that they are related, they don't know that Clive reunited with him. He has being playing "loyal" to the empire. It matters as much as Anabella being related to Clive, they have no idea that Byron is helping him.
Jill, Sleipnir and Olivier all have braid(s) in their hair… Jill calls herself a ‘puppet’ at the behest of the Ironblood, and as for the other two you’ll have to wait and see. All three have ‘strings’ so to speak, very clever design choice:)
Without getting too far ahead of where this is, I would say that there a definitely story beats that fall into tropes, and are at times a bit contrived (in line with the Kupka sequence they discussed). That being said, I don't think that is necessarily the strength if this game. Rather, I think its strength lies in the visual presentation (specifically making things feel large in scale and making threats feel real), the dialogue and the strength of the core characters (both of which benefit from some of the best voice performances in the series). There are definitely times where you have the "villain lets the protagonist live because the story demands it" moment, and there definitely beats that pull from other source material, but at the end of the day, the battles feel epic, we are invested in the characters and what is at stake, and it is presented extremely well. It's fair to be critical of some of the story elements and still say we enjoyed it.
Not sure if it’s been discussed, but Ultimas theme is use Final Fantasy 1’s “Main Theme” as a leitmotif - I was blown away when I discovered this in the penultimate battle but in my second play through I noticed it was used when it was a very “Ultima foreboding” scene
Dudes, you did justice to that scene between Kupka and Clive in the throne room, save for one detail. The way Clive says “I did.” Clive is just driving that knife deeper and deeper into Kupka and enjoying himself in the process. It’s great how well they convey how much contempt Clive holds for King Kupka.
What's the outro music? Also, you guys still didn't talk about how silly it is that they continue to destroy the crystals to stop the blight, even though the blight seems to grow more swiftly after the first crystal was destroyed. I hope you mention this issue at some point, because everyone ignores it, even though it's one of the things that makes the whole story fall apart. It ruins the story for me that characters continually make choices for the plot and not for what makes sense for them to do.
The messy way that they lead up to the Eikon fight with Titan, I feel has got to be a side effect of the game initially being on 2 discs. It just feels as if they had something better in mind and then they were forced to size down the game and had to make some sloppy shortcuts in order to make it work. Obviously this is just speculation on my part, but given how much thought and care this writer put into Heavensward for example, it strikes me as odd that he would be cool with how that scenario ultimately played out.
Yes, as FFXVI marinates with fans, it seems to have story issues. As much as we praise the writing and delivery of diaglogue.. the second half of the game has story moments that just don't quite make sense. I agree the Kupka part where he got ahold of Jill.. that was the moment where I started questioning the scenario writing.
1: Where can I watch your super mario and tetris video? 2: Byron is great, the character and performance is great. It reminded me of Brian Blessed. 3: The discord sound was annoying and I kept checking if someone had written to me.
Theory, Annabella is part of or in league with Ultima, If olivier is somehow empowered by an Eikon how likely is it that she has had 3 sons and Dominants? thats is far too important and far too unlikely to just be coincidence. Just a thought.
The Hugo trap//jail break is the weakest part of the game narratively for me. It could have been fixed so easily like you stated. I understand the Hideaway doesn’t have a lot of fighters which the game makes note of. But why couldn’t Jill split up from Clive? Have Jill show up to rescue Clive with Torgul! Easy fix. Then they had somewhat of a plan for the trap. And you could still have the Torgul Fenrir reveal! That isn’t even that deep or smart of a solution but would have been better.
Both Liquid Flame and Necrophobe (comes up during the raid on Twinside's mother crystal down the road) are allusions to Final Fantasy V which most of the devs cited as their favorite Final Fantasy. I think they are both in FFXIV as well.
Kupka seems like the kind of person that if Clive just sent a stolas with a message challenging him to a duel in a neutral location he would just accept that.
Honestly I'm surprised you didn't see more of the situation you hoped for between Joshua and Clive in Jill and Marley- i don't think Marley would've had any second thoughts about escaping, but she didn't have the power of the dominant and likely the ironclad would've only taken children to "persuade" Jill since they'd be much easier to control
I'm not going to pretend Rosalith was good but i think the point of Kupka is to contrast to Clive by showing Clive sees beyond revenge and Kupka doesn't. Rosalith doesn't work until the Kupka fight because if that's the contrast you're gonna play between Clive and Kupka, don't make Clive do some stupid crap for revenge.
I like how Clive didn't try to redeem or make amends with Hugo at all. They both legitimately wants each other dead. I find that refreshing in a protagonist.
Just generally speaking I love how Clive isn't afraid of killing bad people. After playing a lot of FF14, which has gotten so afraid of even mentioning death, it's great.
@@sagewaterdragon I still can't get over how no important character died in endwalker.
@@Rithysak101i kinda like it. Everyone was so sure someone was gonna die at the end of that story. It was cool that it didnt go that way
@@magnainsomnia I'm gonna need to replay it again. I remember I still love it especially Venat's arc.
I don't think it could've gone any other way. Like, I'm not gonna be able to sympathize with a spoiled asshole who's mourning the loss and desecration of another asshole, all the while being wrong about who's even responsible. What took the cake for me, is that Hugo essentially says it was their plan to rule as gods, which to me just sounds like he and Benna wanted to be Sylvestre + Annabella 2.0. I'd pity them for being stupid, but I like Clive's approach better; forget pity, just take out the trash.
I loved the first Hugo fight. Clive just twisting the knife on him by telling him he killed Benedikta instead of being a typical good guy and vindicating himself is one of my favorite tropes. Ben Starr is so good in that scene.
“No pity and NO. MERCY.” Badass. The whole sequence leading up to it is dumb and contrived but the fight itself is awesome. It’s like the writers were so excited to have Clive and Hugo fight that they forgot how to make a convincing reason to get to it lol.
"cross you?... I'll kill you!!"
It was epic to see Clive so enraged that he almost lost Jill. So emotionally charged.
I really liked the line Jill says when she kills the patriarch. "May the blessing of crystals go with you", it's a line we have heard people say multiple times by now to wish luck to departing people etc, but here it reads "may the crystals die alongside with you". Great stuff
A shame that we didnt get more scenes with Jill and Clive together, I really liked their relationship, it feeled very real to me
Their relationship is my favorite in the series.
there are plenty near the end
I knew Mike would lose his shit when he played the Kupka/Rosalith scenario. 😂
Liquid Flame is a reference to the Final Fantasy V boss of the same name, it was able to shift between multiple forms as well! I thought it was a really awesome reference!
The one thing I look forward to every week!!
I personally though Kupka’s plan made sense as for why he didn’t attack Byron and instead attacked “Clive’s House”. It wasn’t about Clive’s house, it’s about his fathers legacy. While Annabella had betrayed Rosaria for the empire, the castle still stood. Elwin’s throne still stood and Kupka made a point to destroy it in front of Clive. “Have you come to defend your fathers throne, Lord Rosfield? The Grand Duchy of Rosaria. A realm without a ruler, an army, or even a people….A veritable kingdom of dust” Everything that Elwin had devoted his life to building up and protecting. Even the torture of the bearers falls into this due to Elwin’s treatment of the bearers being more humane than anywhere else. Elwin’s stance on the bearers is even cemented further in a side quest further on the game. Kupka was destroying the remaining ideals that Elwin had stood for. That’s enough to make a man who already wanted to kill Kupka walk headlong into a known trap out of pure hatred. “No pity. No mercy.”
This also explains why he didnt just kill Jill when he had her by the throat. He need to threaten her to get Clive to allow himself to be shackled. Then he could make her watch Jill get executed, the beavers get executed, the castle destroyed. And once all of that is done and Clive is standing amongst his fathers literal kingdom of dust, then he would kill Clive. Now granted they undermine that by having Jill’s execution happen while Clive is locked in a cell. But maybe he chose to do that so he could then present Clive with her head in a box. I fully admit that this is all speculation since none of it is acknowledged in game, however it does at least provide a path for the events to make more sense and not seem so slapped together lol.
Kupka’s plan makes sense to me when you recall that Byron is not openly affiliated with Cid (Clive) at this point in the story. A large part of why he and the remaining Rosarian nobles enjoy the freedoms they do is because they’re pretending to go along with Anabella’s whims and decrees while doing their own stuff in secret. I thought it safe to assume that if the Imperial Duchess knew that Byron was working with Clive he would suddenly find his work way harder than it used to be. Likely, she would’ve told Kupka herself and Mike’s expectation is exactly what would’ve come to pass.
For once, she got outplayed.
Edit: As for the rest…I do agree that the rest of his plan was idiotic. But I think it boils down to how believable you find the excuse of his strategic mind being blocked by grief, rage, and possibly even psychosis if some of the later stuff we see is anything to go by. Personally, it didn’t break my suspension but I get why it might’ve broken others.
While Final Fantasy XVI main theme of the Human Will didn't really emotionally resonate with me, i think the theme of love (Yoshi P mentions this as one of the game's main theme) really did it for me in this game. I think of all the final fantasy, this game has the most developed NPC in the series. The game really rewards you for taking your time and listening in and read every possible little detail the game has. I've found so many hidden details about the characters that sometimes I wish the game would put in the forefront of the story.
I found it interesting, how the quest in this game is that of the Villains of earlier FF games. In this game we're going out to destroy the crystals since they're allegedly poisoning the world, where as in the classics, they bring peace and stability to the world, and you are trying to save them from being destroyed by the villians
Like destroying mako Reactors before they suck out the entire essence of the planet and then go fight an ancient alien before it can absorb all the life force of the planet and ride it's corpse through the cosmos. Bar for Bar.
It’s a deliberate and ironic subversion that I appreciate. The tagline of the game is even about the crystals defining the series’ identity for far too long.
They already did the 'not falling for the trap chess game' before the Rosalith arc, it's what the Drake's Breath mission was. It was akin to 'they will expect us to hit Drake's Fang, so instead we do this'.
In regards to Byron being left alone, the whole duchy seems to have a strong sense of duty. The Rosfield's aren't the only families that run the duchy, they are the royal family. Anabella can not risk harming him (cause he pretended to swear fealty to her) or have anything bad happen to him because the other families may take it as a reason to rebel or make it even harder for her and the empire to controll the duchy. So even if she might have wanted him dead, the empire could have told her not to harm him.
Yeah also didnt they mention that he has huge influence over the port or something like that? Id imagine Anabella/ the Empire probably thought it was more beneficial to use him to her advantage rather than just axe him and risk an uprising
I would agree with this but I don't know if there were actually any other influential families within Rosaria. And I mean explicitly stated ones. The game only really gives Byron as the only 'other' influential figure in Rosaria who holds power. I think this logic WOULD be perfectly reasonable and inferred given what we know about the culture of Rosaria, but because the game never elaborates on this specific topic of other influential families, its hard to support your statement.
In addition, it wasn't necessarily the case that you'd exterminate the former ruling family historically. The Byzantines in Greece and the Tudors in England would regularly execute traitors but happily employ their close family into the royal courts. Henry VIII actually executed one traitor then employed his son, who had a successful career serving the king!
I don't think it matters that they are related, they don't know that Clive reunited with him. He has being playing "loyal" to the empire. It matters as much as Anabella being related to Clive, they have no idea that Byron is helping him.
Jill is sounding like Kratos "I'm your monster no longer" 😮
Loving this series, guys. Keep it up!
I have a theory as to why the scenario surrounding the Jill execution was so bad, and it has entirely to do with Torgal. I feel like the idea of Torgal being Fenrir, and the protector of Shiva, came about fairly early on in the development of the story, as was Jill being Shiva. There seems to also be this idea of the Eikons taking over the dominants when they're under great stress (similar to how the eidolons awaken in FF13, which I think was a large inspiration for a number of things in this game). This means that they had to come up with a scenario where Jill would need to be saved somehow, but Clive couldn't be the one to save her so Torgal could finally reveal that he was Fenrir.
This doesn't make it better, of course, but I really do think this entire thing was created just to show off Torgal's hidden power, and was probably written in kind of a backwards way.
the horrible thing is, we never saw Torgal Fenrir again after that.
I still don't understand how the Iron Kingdom guys thought they had any chance at fighting an eikon without one of their own. They were so arrogant the entire time as if they had an ace up their sleeve, but if it wasn't for Ultima's liquid flame or whatever that thing was (which surely they didn't know would arrive) there would have been no challenge at all.
The entire story is filled with that stuff. Most people act in a way that serves the plot, but not in a way that makes sense for them.
Byron is MVP
That one uncle with money. Always a cool relative😂.
He's the most underrated character in the game. I felt like the bond between him and Clive was well done and I could feel his emotions upon realizing his nephew was alive.
Byron and Mid were great together in their few scenes.
I don’t think any of the main characters (the ones they show during the credits) were bad. I can’t remember the last FF that pulled that off. Maybe 9? butevery FF since 7 had at least one character universally disliked.
@@fy4b230Looks like you are stuck with me Byron!
Mid being Mid and I think he could be a real good uncle for her too.
That's my boy!
UK listener here and just want to say this is an wwesome series. No one does content like yours. Keep it up!
Regarding the Brand, it’s not just an imperial thing. According to the the Thousand Tomes”The Great Nations of Valesthea have a longstanding accord to brand their Bearers in this way, that the slaves might be traded across borders”
God watching them go through this makes me want to see what analysis they would do for all the expansions of Final Fantasy 14....But I know that it would be impossible on this format.
It does make sense for Kupka to believe Cid killed Benedikta. Cid had to prime into Ramuh to stop a rampaging Ifrit and used a giant lightning bolt to do so. Since Ramuh was seen at the battle and was the last Eikon standing reports could assume he stopped Garuda
Good point!
There's also the fact that the guy who delivered Benedikta's head in the box said that he was paid by Cid.
@@Starmid true I just assumed that part was a lie by someone wanting to manipulate Kupka as that sounds very out of character for Cid
@@ebonflames Oh it most certainly wasn't Cid and Kupka is being manipulated, but Kupka doesn't know that.
@@Starmid I'm nearly done with the game now and I can't think of who it was that actually didthat. presumably it was Sanbreque or Waloed agents acting under their leaders but is it ever actually confirmed or just dropped?
Regarding Torgal's magical abilities, I was REALLY suspicious why he was not affected by the Akashic effects when he went with the team to shatter that first crystal. That he was Fenrir/a frost wolf explained that - so there was a hint and it didn't come out of nowhere.
Really enjoying these discussions a lot and really appreciate the dive into Jill. I am one of those people struggling to appreciate her, as she seems primarily there for Clive's sake rather than being able to stand on her own.
As much as I've seen people complain about Jill, so much so I think her and Clive's romance is integral to how much I loved this game. Not only her, but Joshua and Gav as well. I really loved the characters and their interactions in the game.
Also, Ben Starr did a fenomenal job with the voice of Clive, he definitely has to win some awards for his performance
I agree. The game is really carried by the relationship we've build with the people in this world in my opinion.
Jill honestly is still a great character even though she’s underutilized.
@@SaberRexZealotI hope the future expansion or DLC makes her playable and expands on her role during those 5 years.
I really didn't care for their romance because it's sooo "perfect"? Like they never disagree or have a difference of opinion, Jill just agrees with everything Clive says and is his more less pet the whole game.
@@peter123yeah6they kinda did with Jill not wanting Clive going to Kupka and not wanting Joshua to come along in the future but she just doesn't make a scene out of it. I like relationship like that.
Uncle Byron is one of my favorite characters. I love when he and Clive are "under cover" in Dhalmekia. 'Your pal?' "Would you rather be my squire?"
Sleipnir is the name of Odins horse which is shared with the guy who serves Barnabas
When you beat your opponents, the success screen says “bested”
When you kill your opponents, the success screen says “slain.”
IDK man i definitely used some punisher attachs on the ground and that sword definitely went through that guy.
I hope you guys spend plenty of time at the end (hopefully a whole episode) going back through your earlier ideas about the themes and predictions to see if they hold up.
I think Jill has the saddest story in all of ff games. She was a princess token from her home , her hometown was token by the blighter . Than when she finally had home she was taken again by hostile nation and all of this before she was 15 and than she is being tortured physically and mentally than they use her as weapon for mass distraction her body starts to be decaying from using magic and finally when she find love it goes away . Never been a fan of girls in video games but Jill she was different great female character and she deserves more love.
I would be really curious to see what Mike makes of Xenoblade 3s Chapter 5 scenario after his reaction here. They really pulled a FFVIII style Rinoa walked off screen and Seifer captured her with Jill during this sequence.
I like Jill, but I do agree with people who criticize her character is that the game sometimes feels like they don't know what to *do* with her. Besides the whole atonement section, she doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. I wish she was colder in personality to not only relate to her powers as the Dominant of Shiva, but to her whole lot in life; she was a political hostage at a young age, she was forced into indentured servitude and killed others by command, and she has zero angst over a majority of this. Whenever she's with Clive, she's a bit too well-adjusted; I like their chemistry, but I wish she was more flawed, personally.
Additionally, I'd love if she held a lot of resentment towards the Rosfields, keeping up a smiling facade except she genuinely bonded with the brothers. And have her "defrost" so to speak once she and Clive reunite as adults. I felt that would've given her a proper arc, including more of her backstory intertwined with the main plot. I know she's "cursed," but the only times it hampers her also feels too convenient; I was a bit annoyed she couldn't destroy that Mothercrystal, it always has to be Clive.
sad. to think koji fox stated Jill is flawed, but not ‘flawed’ enough (i think to sugarcoat it because of her backstory. Nowadays they give characters backstory to just motivate them but don’t dive deep enough to the depth of what had become of them). Her character is poorly handled and wish they could have done more with her.
That's the main problem of this game. the characters are not flawed. I thought the Ifrit beating of Phoenix was unconscious jealousy of Clive over Joshua taking control or something, but no, clive was just this perfect lovey dovey guy from the beginning till the end of the game and jill (who is also bland) had no way to improve him.
A small correction: Twinside is the former capital of the Crystalline Dominion. The Empire took over and moved their capital to Twinside after losing their historical capital of Oriflamme. So the pillars in Twinside have nothing to do with the Empire, but they *do* have something to do with something else…
discord notification sound at 38:33 got me
People who think Jill is an underdeveloped character are telling on themselves. She has a lot going on but it’s subtly told. Just because she’s not angry and yelling in your face exactly what she’s feeling like Clive it ends up going over a lot of players heads.
She's boring and just follows Clive, has no impact on him. I prefer Torgal
@@gijane2cantwaittoseeyou203 "Boring." If you have no attention span just say that. When Clive found out he was Ifrit he's on the verge of suicide and wondering why he's still breathing after all the shit he's done, she reminds him he's not the only one suffering through the same thing. If not for her he might have just killed himself. No impact my ass.
Literally unstoppable force meets an immovable object between Clive and Kupka. Feels like a really vindicating moment for both Clive and the player after the hideout
Hope you guys are doing the side quests, it has great characterizations for pretty much everyone in the hideaway as well as the main characters in the form of written letters!
I agree. They really make the people of the hideout feel like your family.
The late side quests feel quite essential to the story as well.
@@OmbraArt when you say late side quests, do you mean like end game. I have seen a few here and there that have some immportance but nothing deeply connecting to the major story. How ever I just finished the Bahamut fight so I have a good 20% of the game still left.
@@Artimes. It's much later than the Bahamut fight. These side quest show up at the very end of the game
@@Artimes. right as the other person said we are talking the last side quests. Also keep a lookout on some of the quests of Hypocrates, I believe along with the final quests they will be mentioned. I won't tell you in detail for spoilers but I can say they bring much insight on the main protagonists and their relationships
I feel for Casen - I just wanted a ship!
I love this game, and I enjoy and agree with your criticisms 😂. That's what makes these podcast episodes so good, you can't truly like something if you can't admit to it's flaws.
Boy, do I know the pain of some game or show "stealing" my ideas. Back when I was in high school, I had this idea of a race of people who came from the future to reset events in the past to try to fix some horrible event in their timeline. Not only did Star Trek Voyager jack this idea, they used the same plot device that signaled the people had changed something (chronitons), and the same name for the race with the same spelling--the Krenim. Even the villain's motivations were the same. I'm just sitting there with my friend watching the episode, and every ten minutes he's like, "Dude, they stole your whole idea." Thirty years later and I'm still mad.
the whole Hugo encounter is a microcosm of the game's plot for me. it works on an emotional level(Clive and Hugo facing off was electric), but when you take a second to look at the reasoning behind it all, or on more than just a surface level, it starts to either fall apart, or just be really dumb. I liked the game, but I wouldnt be afraid to call parts of it outright bad.
This game relies heavily on its spectacle to draw you away from its faults and it's worked on so many people. The spectacles in the game also never hold any emotional or thematic weight, they are just made to look cool in general.
Kupka's goal in Rosalith is explicitly to massacre the civilians to draw out Cid, trusting that he would come to defend his home.
Exactly why the Men of the Rock are sieging Rosalith and not Port Isolde is made clear.
Why Byron isn't a consideration is a fair criticism of strategy but not necessarily character. Anabella, while clearly opportunistic, is never shown to be a clever strategist or to have any militaristic acumen whatsoever. She left Byron alive during her reign as Vicereine which was not a sound decision considering she'd shown no qualms with demoralizing the citizens of Rosaria, so its clear she doesn't consider him to present any degree of threat to her. Particularly since it is addressed that the Empire threatened Byron and permitted him the option to remain in power in return for fealty. Given what we learn about Anabella's motivations and character in Twinside, all of that seems to be consistent with her goal and personality. So while shortsighted, its certainly not out of character for her.
Jill's execution is idiotic and pretty conspicuous as that degree of contrivance has not been seen yet in the plot and does not occur again. Kupka's plan extended only so far as to draw Cid from hiding and then confront and kill him. Seizing Jill was simply a turn of good fortune (how convenient...).
The same outcome could have occurred in that scene had the writer approached it with a bit more care, having Torgal and Gav split off earlier to scout the keep in anticipation of a trap. The Fenrir deus ex machina scene could have occurred right then, just as Hugo is about to snap Jill's neck in front of Clive, distracting him long enough for Gav, Clive and Jill to free themselves and make a counter attack. Transitioning into the 1v1 with Hugo in the throne room after an extended skirmish showing off Torgal's new move-set. Accomplishing the same objective without the need for the blatant contrivances, character-breaking decisions and jarring pace shift in the middle of what otherwise amounts to a high stakes massacre leading up to a climactic duel.
I'm generally very surface-level "ooh pretty explosions, me have happy feel, unga" with games, and even then I was also pretty annoyed at the capture of Jill and subsequent imprisonment. I knew the game was capable of far better as it had proven so many times up to that point so it was particularly frustrating to see. Though generally calm and confident, Kupka is a brute who abuses his power and is not the strategist that Cid, Barnabas or Dion are shown to be. But he also isn't stupid.
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Doing a NG+ playthrough alongside your series and its been great to see all the scenes again with retroactive plot and character knowledge accompanied with both your story analysis and some really awesome music analysis by @MarcoMeatball.
Having played every FF game multiple times through since I was a wee brat, this game has quickly become one of my favorites in the series.
Good catch from Casen on the Rood Inverse! Not sure if its just coincidence since some of the Vagrant Story team who still work for SE are in CBU3 now but I'd like to think it was a subtle nod to that game.
I didn't give Jill enough credit on my first playthrough. I contrasted her too much with Cid and felt there should have been a similar degree of friction between her and Clive following Cid's death. Seeing her progression with a few different perspectives, I've gained a lot more appreciation for her writing and VA's performance.
I am usually an Apple podcast listener but I just wanted to say quickly: I got to know you guys two years ago with your Nier Replicant podcast. I finished your Automata series a few weeks ago with much appreciation. Now I finished the FFXVI game and I am enjoying your weekly thoughts about this new nice game. Most of the time I did not really connect with Jill and was not very happy with the fact that Clive’s childhood friend is surprisingly a dominant, too. I thought it was cheap for the story. But finishing the game and especially hearing your analysis of Jill in this episode changed my view. Jill has a tragic role and is facing the truth of her (not fully understandable) bad actions. Keep up the great work. Thanks
Love the podcast. Just finished my platinum. Really enjoyed my month with this game. Even with its flaws, I’d put this installment up there with 10 in terms of enjoyment mixed with jaw dropping spectacle (I don’t think anything will ever top my first experience with 7, so that’d be unfair).
Hope there is a DLC. Expanding on the mystery of Leviathan or something to do with Cid, or better yet both.
Cheers!
I don't know why people keep bringing up Leviathan, i am almost at end game, just finished destroying the last mother crystal at the dominion and I still have not seen nothing about that yet. But yeah character specific DLC will help dramatically offset the pacing of the games story and fill in the gaps of peices of the character stories like Jill, Dion, Annabella, and Cid that have kind of only been protrayed through the tomes.
@@Artimes. people bring it up because it’s referred to in the game. “Leviathan the lost” and is one of the Eikons on the mural.
If you missed the obvious references so far, I don’t know what to say. Pay attention? If you just destroyed the last mother crystal you’ve seen the mural 2-3 times and have had Joshua reference leviathan the lost. The only reference to leviathan that is easily missed/theorized is the odd looking frozen crystal wrapped in vines (the blight) that you can see to the north from the hideout.
When I saw that it told me that Jill’s original family/country and leviathan had something to do with each other or it’s just showing that’s what happened to Jill’s birthplace.
Game was supposed to have Alexander in it. They cut him. Leviathan is referenced multiple times in the game. So we will see.
Play the Waloed section again when Joshua and Clive split up in the chapter select if you want the blatant reference.
When a character openly brings Leviathan up and is an Eikon underneath the vessel in the mural littered throughout the game….
@@fy4b230 Well i destroyed the last mother crystal of storm. I have not ventured into Ash at all yet so maybe thats why? Have not been to waloed yet either. If it has been vaguley referenced through subtle forshadowing in early parts of the game, then i may have missed those if its to vague. But if it becomes more apparent in the very late stages, then in the 2nd playthrough I will most likley pick up on those little vague hints of it early on.
@@fy4b230 when was it mention that Alexander was cut? I only know Yoshi p said Alexander would be too OP for the game story because they can time travel.
@@Rithysak101 I remember reading an interview that they wanted to include Alexander but ultimately couldn’t. Probably because of what you said, so they “cut” him.
I agree the mission is messy, but the actual Clive Vs Kupka fight is honestly my favorite part of the game. The 5 year hatred they had for each other (or the hatred Kupka thought he had for Cid) just exploding at this point was awesome to see
I think you might have under minded the massacre of Rosalith. Kupka and his army seem to be not only destroying buildings "throwing rocks at Clives house" but indiscriminately killing barers, soldiers and citizens alike. You can see their corpses scattered about the city before you get captured. Knowing Clive as we do, I think that is enough to make him charge in head first. Hope yall get a minute to touch on the sick music during the next Ekion battle as well. It deff caught me off guard lol
1:28:05 I never made that connectuon. That's good.
Also, Barnabas and Harbard are both there at the beginning of the game with Benedicta and Kupka discussing their troops' involvement.
Your podcast It’s The only thing on The internet that makes me stop whatever I’m doing and immediately listen to it.
Keep up The great work! ❤
I really respect the fact that Mike replays the games multiple times
It was pretty clear to me that Clive had to respond to Kupka's trap. If he didn't, Kupka's private army would continue rampaging across Rosaria, destroying everyone's homes (not just Clive's) and killing all the innocent citizens until he ran out of people to slaughter. Before leaving for Rosalith, Vivian mentioned that evacuations were underway, but apparently not everyone got out in time as evidenced by Gav saying he was going to search for surviving stragglers once your team arrived on site. I didn't even notice the ATL about torturing Bearers.
The execution scene was poorly "executed" but Kupka's motive to inflict "eye for an eye" emotional damage on Clive by beheading the woman he loves was very clear.
Also, I keep checking my Discord when I hear your notifications.
😂 This whole Kupka trap is really stupid. I didn't really think about it but you are totally right Mike! It is hilariously stupid! 😂
And it's weird when you notice the fact that once Clive enters the Throne Room the quality of writing goes up exponentially. You can see the one responsible for writing that part changing in real time.
kupka wants to make clive suffer so wants to dish out as much pain as possible, its stupid because hugo is stupid and blinded by his thirst for revenge. he is not playing with a full house of cards.
Agreed on the whole Rosalith Castle portion being probably the dumbest part of the game, but honestly it kind of wrapped around to me enjoying it anyways. Theres something so comically dumb about Clive and Hugo just being so fucking angry at eachother that they just run at eachother from across the continent
The devs really just wanted them to fight so bad lol
@@SaberRexZealot It resulted in the Titan Lost fight so yknow fair enough
At least it’s dumb because a good reason and not a Politically Incorrect reason
I know im like 6 months behold, and really unlikely you guys read this, but I think it makes sense, from the start of the game , I personally was thinking he was “Fenrir” . As for the underground fight at the castle. It just scream entire references to “Knights of the Rounds / Heavenward” , surrounded by Knight statue , and match made for the heaven.
The discord notification sounds made this video better 😭
I am glad someone else feels my pain of feeling like this game has somehow siphoned ideas straight from my head before it was ever made 😂
Really been enjoying the review!
I just started my second playthrough and the previous episodes are helping me to observe even more on the replay
This podcast makes me look forward to Wednesdays every week!
My number one issue with this game, although I sincerely loved it, is that the waypoints showing up on the map in the way they do, extend all across the continent but when you enter the map, it’s just an area with waypoints spread across it, suggesting those waypoints cover the span of the continent. It makes the whole world feel smaller than it appears. I wonder if anyone else has picked up on this?
As always, I look forward to this each week, and I am very much appreciating your content!
Ill throw my own thoughts on Jill here. Jill is a character that has spent most of her life hever having true freedom. She was taken in as basically a prisoner of war at a young age to stop the fighting with the northern territories. She even talks about her possible future of simply being married off for political gain, had Rosaria not fallen. She then gets taken prisoner and forced to be an instrument of war for years, and even while being reunited with Clive, Jill still wasn't free from her own guilt.
Killing Emreann was the one thing she felt she needed to do, to finally be free of her own guilty conscience, and after that she was finally free of everything the Jill delt bound her, and was finally able to make a choice of her own free will, which was to help Clive.
boring and cliché
Clive taking responsibility for killing Benedikta feels very in character. He probably feels he owes the same honesty to her as he does Murdoch and the guys at Phoenix Gate.
No way. Clive was twisting the knife for what Kupka just tried and failed to do.
Certified "you mad bro?" moment from Clive and it's beautiful 🤣
I'm glad you guys thought that plan and the story events of the dungeon were whack too lol. I LOST IT when jill got captured. I was like BRO HOWWWWWWWWWWWW 😂😂😂
"Byron is gonna die." For five seconds I was concerned Uncle would betray us. Every moment after I was mourning how they were going to hurt us with him.
i worked from home today so i could put this on when it dropped
Loving this series guys! I wait for it every week and am coincidentally staying around the same place progress wise so it’s adding so much to my play through. Keep up the good work! I’m also going back and watching old episodes (starting with ff8).
Thank you for your interpretation of Jill's character, i still would have liked more from her, but you definitely put her in a better light than i had considered before.
So spoilers...
I have finished the game, and over the course of it, Jill slowly opens up, and ends up being more warm and friendly with Clive especially, but also with everyone else, more so after this point in the game.
you guys did mario parkour! I had no idea! omg Now I have to go back and watch Dark Pixel.
love the call back to "change and grow". would love to hear you guys mention the side quests more and about your favorite eikon moves and abilities
Yeah man, FF16 goes way beyond confronting/integrating shadow. Jill is a wonderful character. She is a true syzygy for Clive. This game also touches on the ego’s correct interaction with the Self.
This game sings at times. ❤
Beat titan on sunday that fight makes up for this poor scenario.
Kindly reminder to check on Nektar The Bold's dialogue.
In regards to Bearers being despised by society (and the crucifixion scene): there's an interview with some of the cast members on UA-cam where they talk about some of the secrets they had to keep while working on the project, and one thing they mentioned was that Bearers were called "Demonites" in the dummy script. Seems like the writers wanted to equate Bearers to something explicitly sinful, though I'm not sure they went far enough to exposit that point.
There were a lot of Discord alerts this episode
I misinterpreted The Lyrics to away "Joshua's theme" as Joshua trying to avoid his duty, but your discussion about the birds in a gilded cage put that in a different perspective. It ends with, A swirling cyclone in the sky
Look down to the nether
Bid farewell forever
Throw open your wings and fly!
Away!
Away!
Away!
The Full lyrics.
O Prometheus! Ephimetheus
Hollos out your noble name!
O Prometheus! Ephimetheus
Clamors for your stolen flame!
Fiery bonds
Severed atwain
Innocence lost
Buried in broken faith
A Stormhead fills the horizon
Foul shadows whispering ruin
Yet from this darkness arises
The burning light of a new end
Far from heaven, heaven flows
Down and down on weary wings borne
Carried lower, deep below, from light to shadow
Light to shadow!
Circled in the strife of an empyreal catastrophe
Whorls of ire fan infernal flames on high!
Fire in the night
A scarlet beacon in the sky
Look up to the heavens
The firmament reddens
Throw open your wings and fly!
Away!
Away!
Away!
A stormhead fills the horizon
Foul shadows whispering ruin
Far from heaven flown
Dry your eyes and let your wings fold
From the dark light be reborn and rise from shadow
Rise from shadow!
Circled in the strife of an empyrean catastrophe
Tongues of fire incandescent oaths decry!
Shadows in the night
A swirling cyclone in the sky
Look down to the nether
Bid farewell forever
Throw open your wings and fly!
Away!
Away!
Away!
Jill’s probably my favorite character in the game, so I admit I’m a little biased when I say that the gameplay being Clive (and sometimes Joshua)-centric made the volcano dungeon less effective for me. When she primes to Shiva I was like, “oh heck yeah let’s play as Shiva,” and then she just flies around in the background mostly for the boss fight. Still great story wise for her, but the climax fell flat without being reflected in the gameplay I thought
Unrelated note; I finished Tears of the Kingdom a couple days ago. And I say finished, but what I mean is "I've-been-playing-this-sum-bitch-for-two-months-and-I-found-out-there-is-such-a-thing-as-too-much-of-a-good-thing"
Great though. Recommend
This doesn't appear in my subscriptions feed for some reason.
Edit: 2 hours later it appears. Okay UA-cam.
The quote "I freed a thousand slaves; I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" is often misattributed to Harriet Tubman, but there is no evidence that she ever said it. The earliest known occurrence of the quote is in a 1946 book called "They Knew They Were Free" by Louis E. Lomax, who attributed it to an unnamed "Negro leader" in the South.
Inderstand the recklessness of Clive going into the trap, even though he had a plan to at least sneak into the capital. But having Hugo just capturing them instead of killing them right there.... I did not understand why he did that. Just to have a more "ceremonial" execution?
Things could have gone the same way without the whole "being thrown into a dungeon" thing and just have Torgal become Fenrir to save Jill while Hugo had her....
If they were going to be tortured or interrogated then yeah sure (like in FFVIII when they torture Squall interrogating him) but this one was pointless.
It would also look really suspicious that all of the rosfields were killed after Phoenix gate and Annabelle taking power
"It's still God out of the Machine..." 100%, esp if you consider the the origin of that phrase from the play Faust by Goethe. God in the first scene makes a wager w/ the devil about how Faust's soul would be worthy of heaven. Mephistopheles then makes a deal w/ Faust to be Faust's servant in his mortal life, so that he would be Mephisto's servant in the afterlife (hell). Well, eventually b/c Faust experiences true remorse, his soul is saved, and a machine contraption on the literal set of the stage represented God, saving him and ushering him to heaven. God's intervention was always a possibility from the very beginning! I think some commentary of Torgal being really attached to Jill and Torgal still being strong and healthy while being an 18 year old pup could have brought some intrigue to him, so that when he did save Jill and powered up we can be appreciate that.
1:04:40 I don't think it matters that they are related, they don't know that Clive reunited with him. He has being playing "loyal" to the empire. It matters as much as Anabella being related to Clive, they have no idea that Byron is helping him.
Jill, Sleipnir and Olivier all have braid(s) in their hair… Jill calls herself a ‘puppet’ at the behest of the Ironblood, and as for the other two you’ll have to wait and see. All three have ‘strings’ so to speak, very clever design choice:)
Without getting too far ahead of where this is, I would say that there a definitely story beats that fall into tropes, and are at times a bit contrived (in line with the Kupka sequence they discussed). That being said, I don't think that is necessarily the strength if this game. Rather, I think its strength lies in the visual presentation (specifically making things feel large in scale and making threats feel real), the dialogue and the strength of the core characters (both of which benefit from some of the best voice performances in the series). There are definitely times where you have the "villain lets the protagonist live because the story demands it" moment, and there definitely beats that pull from other source material, but at the end of the day, the battles feel epic, we are invested in the characters and what is at stake, and it is presented extremely well. It's fair to be critical of some of the story elements and still say we enjoyed it.
It's the Final Fantasy x Michael Bay collaboration special.
Not sure if it’s been discussed, but Ultimas theme is use Final Fantasy 1’s “Main Theme” as a leitmotif - I was blown away when I discovered this in the penultimate battle but in my second play through I noticed it was used when it was a very “Ultima foreboding” scene
Starts reciting poetry. Yup, that's Genesis
Dudes, you did justice to that scene between Kupka and Clive in the throne room, save for one detail. The way Clive says “I did.” Clive is just driving that knife deeper and deeper into Kupka and enjoying himself in the process. It’s great how well they convey how much contempt Clive holds for King Kupka.
What's the outro music?
Also, you guys still didn't talk about how silly it is that they continue to destroy the crystals to stop the blight, even though the blight seems to grow more swiftly after the first crystal was destroyed. I hope you mention this issue at some point, because everyone ignores it, even though it's one of the things that makes the whole story fall apart. It ruins the story for me that characters continually make choices for the plot and not for what makes sense for them to do.
I can't wait until they get to Hugo and figure out how they tie everything together
The messy way that they lead up to the Eikon fight with Titan, I feel has got to be a side effect of the game initially being on 2 discs. It just feels as if they had something better in mind and then they were forced to size down the game and had to make some sloppy shortcuts in order to make it work. Obviously this is just speculation on my part, but given how much thought and care this writer put into Heavensward for example, it strikes me as odd that he would be cool with how that scenario ultimately played out.
Yes, as FFXVI marinates with fans, it seems to have story issues. As much as we praise the writing and delivery of diaglogue.. the second half of the game has story moments that just don't quite make sense. I agree the Kupka part where he got ahold of Jill.. that was the moment where I started questioning the scenario writing.
1: Where can I watch your super mario and tetris video? 2: Byron is great, the character and performance is great. It reminded me of Brian Blessed. 3: The discord sound was annoying and I kept checking if someone had written to me.
Theory, Annabella is part of or in league with Ultima, If olivier is somehow empowered by an Eikon how likely is it that she has had 3 sons and Dominants? thats is far too important and far too unlikely to just be coincidence. Just a thought.
Interestingly, in the French version, Olivier is named "Octavian".
The Hugo trap//jail break is the weakest part of the game narratively for me. It could have been fixed so easily like you stated.
I understand the Hideaway doesn’t have a lot of fighters which the game makes note of. But why couldn’t Jill split up from Clive?
Have Jill show up to rescue Clive with Torgul! Easy fix. Then they had somewhat of a plan for the trap. And you could still have the Torgul Fenrir reveal!
That isn’t even that deep or smart of a solution but would have been better.
Thats a brilliant observation about the Pikes in Twinside and the Bearers in Rosaria
Vagrant story reference was a nice find Casen!
Thanks guys :)
Both Liquid Flame and Necrophobe (comes up during the raid on Twinside's mother crystal down the road) are allusions to Final Fantasy V which most of the devs cited as their favorite Final Fantasy. I think they are both in FFXIV as well.
Mike bashing weak writing is my favorite thing in the world atm. "WHATS GOING ON?!?!"
Kupka seems like the kind of person that if Clive just sent a stolas with a message challenging him to a duel in a neutral location he would just accept that.
That "Now Die!" went so hard
Honestly I'm surprised you didn't see more of the situation you hoped for between Joshua and Clive in Jill and Marley- i don't think Marley would've had any second thoughts about escaping, but she didn't have the power of the dominant and likely the ironclad would've only taken children to "persuade" Jill since they'd be much easier to control
I'm not going to pretend Rosalith was good but i think the point of Kupka is to contrast to Clive by showing Clive sees beyond revenge and Kupka doesn't.
Rosalith doesn't work until the Kupka fight because if that's the contrast you're gonna play between Clive and Kupka, don't make Clive do some stupid crap for revenge.
Exactly, later in the game Halbard reffers to him as having a head full of nothing but rocks.