Dndbeyond encounter tool. Auto roll for monsters. Call players in the order you want or top tot bottom on your screen, fill in, and go. It also tracks rounds, which I always forget. The only slowing factora here are your players.
I have posted in a separate comment the system I currently using. But I really liked the system from SLA Industries (1st edition). Where I just could yell: "ONE!" And the payers would automatically know combat started and usually also who is going first, since the initiative had been there rather static (even though there had been interesting ways to get extra actions outside the normal turn order using combat drugs, which had their own issues for the characters). That made combat really fast paced and many other things like damage also had been static (while still being rather lethal). With the right group entire fights that would last an hour in D&D could be handled in under a minute.
Not good if your rogue has abilities based off going before others in initiative... I just use an app or program running on the side. Can even auto roll all at once including players if needing to go really fast, or have them give me their numbers and type them in super fast.
The only issue I have with Group Initiative is that it exacerbates the balance problems for combat, especially with singular baddies. If the whole party gets to go, there is a chance that your baddie gets capped before his turn. Even with minions, if the party wisely chooses to focus-fire...
I've thought about that before and all I could come up with is; if the PCs kill an NPC before said NPC's turn in a round, he still gets that turn but dies immediately after. Since the combat is theoretically happening at the same time...
@@jamesdavid1874 another option from straight group initiative is alternating - PC, DM, PC... Works for bosses with minions as well as single bosses with "Villain Actions" or similar
I roll d6’s for “side” initiative and it’s the only roll where the DM is favored on the roll (a 6 means I get to go first this time no matter what) then it sets the turns into motion, DM, PC, DM,PC etc with the minions or lesser initiative monsters going in the middle of the Pc turns
If your baddie just stands there like a Zombie then sure it can be a problem.........but if reactive actions are allowed to both sides then you create a narrative far more realistic and interesting!
I actually roll initiative at the start of the session, and we use that the whole session. It helps me make sure all players get equal chance of the spotlight, without having the table over taken by more vocal players
For almost two decades I've used group initiative. Triggering character or closest to triggering incident rolls for the group. Then it's the player's turn they go in order of their initiative modifier. Usually have the group sit by initiative modifier either weaving accross or around the table in order of initiative modifier which honours any features or feats they have that boost initiative. Another one I am trialing now (might be my new fave) is a variation on group Initiative which uses the initiative roll as a kind of Suprise d20 test. They use their initiative modifier to a d20 roll which honours feats and features. The DC is set by how 'suprising/alarming/unanticipated' the inciting incident is. Crawling through a dungeon usually results in a lower DC than an ambush during dinner mid conversation, for example. Those who pass the save go first, then the DM, then the players who failed. Within those groupings I just go in seated order as I've already honoured their initiative bonus in the save. So far I love it.
Omg you are literally describing the system I just switched to. Since making this video, a lot of people have commented mentioning this quasi-group initiative but with a DC depending on the circumstances of the encounter. And then the 3 groups, winners of the DC, monsters, and last, the losers against the DC. Love it!
Shadow of the Demon Lord has a really simple, streamlined initiative system--side-based initiative where the players always go first but with the turn divided into two phases: "fast turns" (an action) and "slow turns" (an action and a move). The turn breaks down as follows: Player Fast Turn; Monster Fast Turn; Player Slow Turn; Monster Slow Turn. If two players are acting in the same phase they have to figure out the order (some people might roll for it, my group just goes with whoever blurts their action out first). This took a little bit of getting used to for my group and I found it helpful to note the turn number and phase so everyone was clear (so far I've only run the game via VTT so I just put it in the chat...for in person games I've made a mock up of a double-sided token I can flip to represent the phase). The most recent playtest document for the followup game, Shadow of the Weird Wizard, breaks it down even more simply: monsters go first but players can "seize the initiative" (which is just a different name for taking a "fast turn"). The SotWW combat turn breaks down as follows: Seize the Initiative, Monster Turn, Player Turn. This means the GM doesn't even have to track which monsters are doing which sort of turn and has a very flavorful vibe: monsters go first, which is threatening; "seizing the initiative" feels like a heroic response in the face of that threat. I think this is, overall, a big improvement and is probably the one I'd recommend to someone wanting to adopt a homebrew initiative system for their game.
I think a better way is probably to have the sides take turns--player 1, monster 1, player 2, monster 2, etc. Group initiative combat feels like it would be super swingy to me. I don't usually find initiative to be particularly time-consuming, honestly. I use a spreadsheet and just take the player's initiative in order around the table and then sort the column at the end and it's pretty quick. I usually have the monster's initiative scores pre-rolled, or I'll just assign them a value that seems appropriate (usually a 5, 10, 15, or 20, or sometimes I will use the monster's raw Dex score). The things that I find slow combat down the most are usually: -Too many creatures, characters, summons, or NPCs on the field. I find more than about 10 total starts to get sluggish. -Abilities like polymorph where a player has to switch to a new statblock or use new abilities -Players not understanding their character's abilities or spells -Players not paying attention to what is happening when it isn't their turn -Having to roll/add huge numbers of dice (as the DM, I will roll a big pile of dice the first time an ability is used because it intimidates the players; after that I'll use the average or a dice roller for anything more than 4dX).
This sounds like a solution looking for a problem, tbh. There are plenty of ways to organize initiative that flow easily and work better than these "fixes" do. Group initiative just heavily unbalances encounters. Switching it to a character then a monster just turns initiative into a dump stat.
My favorite variant 5E initiative rule is to countdown using "passive initiative" (10+Initiative bonus). This rewards players who prioritized initiative in their character design and establishes a consistent turn order that's easy to remember.
Savage Worlds' initiative works with a deck with playing cards, every player draws a card at the beginning of the new round. If you get an ace you additionally get +2 on all rolls.
I think Savage Worlds represents an interesting alternative to making initiative faster: making it fun and easy to track. That said, it is something that turned me off considering I was mostly playing remotely with a vtt and dealing cards becomes a pain in the ass (not hard to do but certainly not as much fun as doing it with real cards).
Critical Role makes it look easy and fast. But I just call out to the table "who has no armor" (they go first). Players beat monsters. And after that combat is done for those actors I move on to who is attacking with spears, and so on. Makes choosing your equipment more important and realistic as well. These range and weight factors are entirely more important in actual physical combat than "dexterity" or other "attribute" factors to determine the "quick draw". A weak layperson with a spear is almost always going to get the first shot over an expert fighter with a knife. Even if that first shot is crap and little risk to the better fighter. This is why Naginatas were used for home defence by women in ancient Japan. “A woman armed with a naginata could keep all but the best warriors at a distance, where all the advantages of strength, weight or sword counted for less." according to Ellis Amdur in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts.
Oooo I really like this. I'm making my own TTRPG right now and I've been trying to come up with an interesting way of doing initiative. I'm going to run with this: Unarmored > Light Armor > Medium Armor > Heavy Armor. We can determine who goes first in these groupings by seeing which group (players vs monsters) has the highest Wisdom, with the characters in each group going in any order they wish.
I've been trying a bigger diversion from classic D&D Initiative but one that I'd encourage other people to give a whirl. Each round of combat, I start by telling the players what the monsters are attempting to do (or describing some telegraph for what the monster might do) and ask them all what they want to do. They write a brief, vague description such as 'Cast X spell' or 'Use Y weapon' on a mini whiteboard. Then, everyone rolls the relevant d20 test at the same time, and the actions are resolved in order from the highest rolls to the lowest rolls, with players wiping their boards as their actions are resolved. This makes combat extremely fast-paced and frenetic and my players have loved it so far, although it is also very difficult for people to always keep track of what's going on. I recommend trying it out, think of it like a big combo of many of House DM's tips!
I'm not a big fan of the system in general, but I liked Lancer's initiative system. Essentially the players collectively decide who goes first, followed by an NPC, followed by a player chosen by the last player to act. It took a minute for my players to adjust to the idea of sharing and acting collaboratively, but once they learned, the initiative was fast and added a layer of tactics to the fight. Haven't tried to port it to another system yet, and it's certainly not for everyone, but it was one I hadn't seen before and enjoyed it! (Edit: it also helps players from checking out, as no one knows who will be chosen to go next by the last player, and since they are active participants in the process.)
I have been doing a group/beginning of each round initiative role since I’ve been playing way back when I started in 1980. As the DM I roll for the monsters and then the players roll. Highest goes first. Each round we roll. What I like after watching this video is the players role as a group. Then I as Dm roll for the monster group. All without modifiers. High roll wins. (Coin toss would work). Repeat this process beginning of each round. The players, as a group, decides who does what and in what order. Group strategy/tactics/ teamwork.
i use a modified reactionary version of the non-initiative system from Dungeon World in my games, where players still roll initiative but as a skill check (higher DC for more difficult encounters) and anyone who succeeds gets a d12 combat inspiration die that acts like a bardic inspiration (one time use, goes away after combat, but can also add to damage rolls). Tougher enemies and bosses can also get this. Then the combat starts with one of the players choosing to go first (they can decide when in the round they act), followed by a GM action which can be a turn of a monster or grouped set of weaker monsters, or an environmental action such as rocks falling or lightning striking etc. Each player only has their action, b. action, and movement, and most monsters function the same with the exception of boss enemies which can have multiple (legendary) actions per round. They key aspect of this system is that both the players and the enemies are constantly reacting to each other in a back and forth, and it works best when the GM telegraphs actions (especially movement) ahead of time so players can see what may happen next and strategize. On the surface it may sound unfair to one side, but my style of combat tends to be very difficult, so it’s vital that players can work together, even choosing to move or take actions at the same time (in which case just remember for every action a player uses, that’s one GM action for you to use in response). Lastly, if multiple PCs or NPCs are both trying to do the same thing simultaneously, such as reaching for an item, shooting a target or racing to get somewhere first, then you can make a contested roll to see who does it faster. Also if you don’t want to choose which GM action to take, just roll a die and let fate decide :3
High Roll Goes First would work well if after initiative is rolled, a coin is flipped to determine if the order goes clockwise OR counterclockwise from there. If it can’t be predicted players can’t cheese it… as easily.
Another cool initiative system is the black sword hack’s. Basically all the players roll wisdom (roll below your ability score) those that succeed the attribute test go before the monsters. Those that fail go after. If you get a critical success (nat 1, it’s a roll low system) then you get an extra action on the first round, if you get a critical failure (nat 20) then you only have 1 actions instead of 2 on the first round
Hey Jake, so I’ve been so fascinated by D&D since 1985 but my brother would never let me play. As I got older I just never found anyone else interested so I never played. Still fascinated and know how the game works. My 12 year old son, now is fascinated and wants to play, so I’ve decided to be a DM. Your videos are amazing and have been helping me a lot with getting started. Haven’t ran anything yet but I just wanted to say THANK YOU 🙏🏽 for your videos!
Hey Caleb! That’s so wonderful to hear! Thank you. I’ve actually had a “running games for kids” video I’ve been meaning to write up now for awhile. Sounds like you might find that useful 😁 Your son is lucky to have you run games for him🤘🏼Rock on!
I was a little disappointed that you didn't note that group initiative IS classic initiative. B/X and AD&D both used it. But I'm glad you brought it up. It's so much easier than individual initiative and is no less "realistic" for an abstracted combat system. Also, I'm all in favor of rerolling initiative every round. I mean, if you can have initiative why can't you lose it? Or gain it?
LOL, came to post this. The host here doesn't have the perspective on the game's history or wouldn't use the term "classic initiative" ... individual cyclic initiative only entered the game with 3E (though IIRC it may have been a Skills & Powers options in 2E). Maybe next he'll ask the party to appoint a caller to tell the DM what the party's actions will be.
Hah! Oh no! I totally spaced that OSE uses d6 group initiative. Wow thats actually hilarious. I never had the privilege to play B/X or AD&D so it makes sense I missed that. Good catch Keith!
In 2nd ed the DM decides what the monsters want to do, then the players declare what the characters want to do, and then initiative is rolled. Initiative is not turn order. It is a tie breaker. Group initiative meant that one roll was used for the group. You could still apply modifiers.
Suggestion to speed up chaos initiative: get a deck of cards, pick out as many cards as your players plus one, associate each card to one player and the last to the monsters. When it comes down to initiative simply draw a card to see who's turn it is, faster than having the players roll each round. If you want you can add more cards for different monsters, but I usually have all my monsters go at once (yes this works only if you don't add modifiers)
Yes. For my 3 youth games, when a player triggers a combat encounter, I announce that player roll an opposing d6 for the party against the foe. The higher number gets first turn. Left to right, players then take turns making actions with the ability to mix up their actions if they cross their fingers during combat (which gives me a visual cue someone needs to interrupt another's turn). We easily go through 1 round of combat with 6 players in 6 minutes. We also only allow 1 action per turn, ICRPG style. So, yes, combat is brutal, quick and exciting. Love the tealight idea!!!
Initiative has always been some thing my table struggles with and has persisted into my career as a game designer, I feel it’s such a tough one to get down because it differentiates between the preference of each table. Great video to cover nonetheless! 😊
Suppose a radical thing would be just remove initiative or have a skill or stat for different classes separately from dex or just make all enemies when it isn’t stealth just naturally go first . One thing I found interesting was in Cyberpunk TTRPG they had a way for you to do skill rolls as a group (like hacking or breaking a lock 🔏 you combine all the player characters in the party skills .
So when I played in person I generally used a hybrid group initiative. Everyone rolled initiative and went in that order. The bad guys all went on a single initiative. So as a DM, I had only to worry about 1 initiative to act on. In practice this turned into baddies, players, baddies, players which some of the players being able to act initially before the baddies. I also used index cards as initiative trackers. Cheap easy to use and I saved them between sessions. Nowadays I play online with foundry so everyone just rolls when I call out for initiative and it sorts them automatically. I also run each enemy on a separate turn now like normal initiative works and it works fine.
Group initiative (letting the players roll 20s taking the highest against the monsters) sounds like it's OP but it's still a cool idea. You could make the players that comprise a "group" need to stand a certain distance apart from one another or have some sort of telepathic link and other members that are further off need to roll separately. Standing shoulder to shoulder should generally bring some sort of a communication advantage over just spreading out randomly and ignoring what the other party members are doing.
Or, and here me out on this, you roll initiative at the start of the session. This is a rule I am going to try. Every player rolls initiative and shares it with the DM and ONLY the DM. For in person sessions, the DM can pass out notecards or slips of paper at the start of the session, everyone writes down their name, initiative roll, and initiative bonus (for tiebreakers) and passes it to the DM. You can do the same thing with private messages in online games and the DM can roll for monsters and set up the full turn order during other moments in the game or before the session even starts. This way, rather the the monster emerging and attacking the Party and then everyone pausing while Initiative is rolled and turn order is established, instead you just say “and now we enter initiative” and the DM has the initiative order set already and we jump right into combat. It’s the best of both worlds IMO. Group Initiative is rough on balancing, especially against single monsters, and this does not take away mechanics from players who do spec into Initiative bonuses via high Dex scores, Feats, and subclass choices. Everyone wins.
Two things I've always done with classic initiative: - Use index cards to track initiative. One card for each player, two cards for monsters (minions and boss), one for allies and one for lair/end of turn. When players roll, go clockwise around the table to get their numbers and put the cards in order. Takes almost no time. - Use a flat initiative for monsters. Instead of rolling, just use 10 + the monster's modifier. Same types of monsters go on the same turn. If the battle has a massive number of minions, just split them in half, and remove 5 from the initiative for the 2nd group.
A technique I use for initiative is this: 1. I desribe the situation and the adversaries that the party can see. 2. Each player then chooses whether they shall go before or after their adversaries. 3. Those players who chose to go first then carry out their actions. Note: these can be in a sequence they choose or simultaneously. 4. Then their adversaries act. 5. Then those players who chose to go last then carry out their actions. Note: as before, these can be in a sequence they choose or simultaneously. 6. Each round let the players make their choices again. Note:If the party's adversaries have surprise they go first on that round only. The we revert to the rules above. Player characters are tight knit group and often have to rely on teamwork, they are also the heroes, so this system shows that. In practice, during the first encounter that you use these rules many players will automatically go first. Though they soo realise the advantages of letting your enemy make their mistakes then reacting to them. Some front liners quickly learn that if they weather the storm by going last in a round, they can then choose to go first in the next, essentially getting two turns in a row. After a single encounter I find the players get a lot more canny, we no longer have to track any sort of initiative, and things seem to flow more naturally.
I have a very different experience for my first time dming - I just jot down initials and initiative rolls for players and creatures, reorganize the initials, and go down the list - maybe I'll hit more issues when I have more than three kinds of monsters in the order but? I've never seen this as too much of an issue
shuffling each session where players sit at the table is a solution to the fixed clockwise idea; also mixes up who sits next to who which can change the social dynamic really well, especially for reserved and quiet people who might be stuck distant from the DM. Another way we play is to pre-roll initiative after the last encounter, DM notes it down. Very fast for no breaks in the action.
Yeah I don’t really want to “assign seats” by telling players where they can and cannot sit. My players are pretty good about just swapping spots anyways but as a general concept, it could be gamed. I do like your idea about pre rolling initiative. Also acts as interesting meta knowledge for deciding on whether or not to engage in the next fight if their initiatives were rolled poorly 🤔
@@HouseDM they could roll where they sit, you don't have to take on that responsibility. My experience with teenagers is that they tend to sit where they first sat, mixing it up bought out more focus and some great interactions. Pre-rolling 3 or even 5 initiative bundles (with enough room for you to insert monster groups) is also good. Then you pick a player to roll a die and the result is the order...they would have forgotten that by the next session and you still have more up your sleeve. Can also be a good wrap up at end of session, everyone gets to roll d20's before they go home. But clockwise is just so clean isn't it?
Another Option Is Phased Group Initative Same PCs then GM but certain action occur in certain phases Status Effects 1. Verbal 2 Melee Combat (PCs then GM) 3. Missile Combat 4. Movement 5. Object Interactions 6. Magic Combat Obvi interrupts may trigger when applicable.
For our up coming Jaws inspired game, we've been using a variant of High Roll. 1. All the PCs roll Initiative 2. One with the highest goes first, yes the rogues first more often, but not all the time 3. The first person chooses to go clock or counter clockwise they often try to go around the table before me, the DM, but there's a reason 4. when it gets me, I go all out on them with all the monsters and NPCs. Ya high dex characters benefit the most from this, that's kinda hard to avoid but just going around the table from the first person "to act" or "roll highest" has made combat so much easier Normally I hate being a DM doing a bunch of stuff on my turn, and I don't roll damage as a DM, and for NPC checks and saves I have players roll for them, which helps players care about the NPCs a bit more I do like the chaos initiative as a monster skill, that's super fun!
This is a cool idea! Big fan of them choosing clockwise or counter clockwise. Adds a fun bit of choice. And it doesn’t need to be DEX. Could be WIS or a straight roll. Also, what the hell is a “Jaws inspired game”. Like hunting a massive great white monster? Sounds lit 🤘🏼
@@HouseDM thx i adapted jaws into a fantasy dnd adventure 😇😈 it’s some of the best dnd we’ve ever played, looking forward to sharing it on the channel in August
I 'invented' chaos mode when i noticed you could reroll initiative in Korbold Fight club. Prep encounter, click roll initiative, complete round, click roll initiative again. Easy and fast. So I took over initiative altogether and don't tell my players. My group found it made the combats more engaging, tactical and makes the initiative stat important. For extra spice, combine this with the DM secretly rolling death saves for PC'S.
we do side initative (usually just players vs enemies but there can be a spicy 3rd group) and we reroll every round. it works absolutely fine. I usuaslly have a red and blue d6 in a center dice tray
I think one easy criticism of this Group Initiative is that "one side, then the next" results in a fight where you can dogpile a single enemy before they have a chance to act. Now granted, single enemy encounters are typically bad game design, especially for larger groups unless they have reactions and legendary actions. However, they do have a time and a place. I was thinking of other options to circumvent this and all i could really think of was using modifiers as the order. No dice rolls needed. Players and enemies go in order of their modifiers. Slow creatures are always slow, fast are always fast. I'd be curious to hear what other ideas people come up with.
Not a bad idea. But then even if you write all of that down ahead of time, you still have to sort of out them in order since monsters bonuses are typically different and PCs will level up and have theirs change over time too. I like where your head is at though. And just because players all get to “dogpile” an enemy, doesn’t mean they will connect with their attacks or even do enough damage to kill then. So there’s that factor there too. Curious to hear more about your idea in practice 🤔
@@HouseDM I haven't tried it out, as I never really felt a need to deviate from normal initiative. But, considering the goal was to stop the immersion break point that initiative is, this was my cleanest solution that came to mind. I would make sure I always have my party initiative bonuses to hand. Then when we enter combat, BOOM, point to the fastest player and tell them they're up. No break in pacing at all.
ICRPG which encourages clockwise turn order also encourages sitting around the table in an optimised order. healers and buffers at the front, tanks at the back, etc.
Initiative as a Skill, not a Modifier. Ultimately functions the same, but allows player investment, with more investment paying off more often. This gives the players agency while also allowing RNGesus to take the wheel. Use a deck of cards. 13/kings go first with a bonus or additional action. 7's choose to go before or after the monsters. 1/aces go dead last with an additional action. Jokers copy any active initiative card currently showing, or alternatively can copy a number in the discarded initiative pile. Who has the momentum is determined by circumstance, like in Ironsworn. Enemies or players can try to sieze momentum for their side, but that takes their entire turn. Big risk, big reward. Initiative is more than just luck, and training. It's both. Once everyone goes, discard the cards, draw a new one each. For swarms or hordes, or enemies with something like Pack Tactics, group them into pairs or triples depending on how many are on the table. Though, I personally treat a horde of enemies as a Skill Challenge or Chase Sequence. Typically you don't need to so this, as most enemy counts are equal or roughly so, to the player count. Frankly, combat should be dangerous and not leapt into without a second thought. Smart play should be rewarded, instead "I smack the HP Sack till it dies."
Should be an Or between "...take the wheel" and "...Deck of cards..." I've been fiddling around with initiative, because of the same issues you mentioned. It bogs down the game, takes the player out of moment. However, what I also noticed is... HP and Combat are NOT lethal enough, and they need to work together to really get the most out of Initiative, which is a big part of it. Static initiative has a place, but frankly... It's boring, and unless you have players adjacent to each other or on the same Init count, they don't try to work together. At all. That, however, is a player problem. It's part of the reason AC, Dmg and HP are always disproportionate to each other, and why things either swing hard, or turn into a slog. They need to be tuned with each other in mind. Using a winnie the pooh jigsaw piece, does not work with an elmo jigsaw puzzle. They are connected, and should be balanced as such. Initiative is distinctly and intrinsically tied to combat as we know it. So if we change it, we need to alter how combat itself works, not on a micro level, but on a macro. As I said, static has a place. It works for 5e, barely. Rotating or rerolled init is time consuming, and makes combat longer and less intense. Randomized with a couple control variables that can be altered with agency, is what I found works best. As for dice, I use D12. D20 is too large a range with too much disparity, despite being nearly identical. In terms of design. I "borrowed" concepts from Mekton, Ironsworn, Pathfinder, Pathfinder 2e, 5e, Savage Worlds. The thing is... Each system typically does something that works... At least one thing at minimum, exceptionally well. If it translates... Why NOT use it? If just requires a minor tweak, why NOT tweak it?
I like your initiative idea and have added it in my current stars without number game. I like what Knave 2nd edition uses and that's the highest Charisma in the party. This implies that the leader of the group can organize and get them to attack the quickest.
Trying this, and at the top of each round they fight to retain control of initiative through intimidation/persuasion, crits/fumbles, so morale can play heavily. That way, a bard who doesn't do much damage could be pivotal in maintaining control of initiative
I have not had the issue of starting-encounter Initiative taking more than a minute or two, but I did do something as a DM that did speed up the process and could be a solution you're looking for. In my campaign when it came time to roll for initiative, I would have my players roll the normal way (d20+dex mod.) and then I would go around the table asking what they got and writing it on a piece of paper. The difference begins in that the Monsters do not roll, the DM just determines what number they have in the initiative order depending on what feels right at the moment and according to the monsters. Lower-level monsters who were caught off-guard by the players but not enough for a surprise round would middle around the 10ish range or below, making players feel invigorated and ready to fight as they likely will roll higher, and even if they roll low, it will be just as surprising for both sides. While things like the BBEG, or really strong monsters who are expecting the party, would be at or over 18 to really set the stakes of what they can do early on, and having players dread at them going first, while rewarding your Dex classes and high rollers who will feel proud and confident at going just before the bad guy. The other thing I do to help speed things up is to group up monsters by monster-type in the initiative order, not monster individuals. This allows more control over the monsters and allows them to be more of a challenge as they move and act in one turn and can work together, but still being fair in that there is still separation between types of creatures. I do not tell the players what the monsters are at in the order, but instead after the turn is over, I will announce whose turn it is next, and we keep going forward. After the first-round things stabilize out and players will be in a much better position to communicate their battle plans and defeat the encounter.
I use static initiative. No rolling. So the initiative order does not change through the whole campaign unless a player chooses to increase their initiative. Basically whatever your initiative bonus is determines when you go.
I did the rerolling initiative after every fight in dungeon crawls (took inspiration from darkest dungeon) however, i have an initiative app that allows me to hit a button and get the new rolls for everyone. it speeds up the game immensely, my table trusts im not fudging numbers and It keeps people on their toes. EDIT: i do usually change one rule for these types of encounters. "Till the end of your next turn" is now "till the end of the next ROUND" (ruling it depending on if the end the previous round and start the next) obviously, don't adjust this if you are doing a GRITTY hard combat setting.
For overland adventures where the party is traveling as a group but in an open area, I let them decide their initiative ahead of time. We then roll for group initiative. If they decide they don’t like that order, they can change it after the combat is completely finished. For regular, planned combat, I have already rolled for the enemies ahead of time.
Starting ShadowDark now and I'm thinking of just using the DEX STAT as a PCs fixed intiative score at the start. While rolling group initiative for combat as used in Mork Borg.
@lindybeige suggests experience as the edge in initiative. The hard boiled veteran will assess the situation and react quicker than the greenhorn. Maybe the higher levelled group gets advantage on their initiative roll.
That would be cool to utilize sometime but in games like Shadowdark, the Thief can get a talent where they get advantage. A strong reasons to play one 👍🏼
Been doing clockwise starting from my left for a while now with a few caveats - if a particular PC starts the fight, they roll against the monster - whichever wins goes then we proceed clockwise from that PC - and I drop any other monsters in wherever seems right
@@HouseDM I play a lot of rogues. Sneak attacking is the best part. Don't get me wrong, I like character building etc, but going first to knock out a critical opponent is so rewarding. Here's what I do like about some of your ideas and others. Set initiatives for baddies - set your boss to x. Ask if people are higher than x. Resolve ties. Then however many levels of henchmen you have. For instance, officers, and then minions or fodder. Doing this initiative takes like 2 minutes. It also rewards builds that need good initiative rolls and those that build for it. This is like group initiative and makes it a lot easier to deal with. If you have a lot of baddies you can spread them out if say, 10 go between player 3 and 4. I love chaos, but not per round but based upon something like the boss going invisible. Something that people react to.
I do something similar, except that each side switches off after acting. So we roll off for initiative. Let's assume the players win: player 1 > monster 1 > player 2 > monster 2 > ...and so on. If one side runs out of turns, the other side takes their remaining turns and then a new round begins. That way it isn't all or nothing. IME, using side initiative confers too much of an advantage to whichever side can act first. With focus fire, the side that wins can decimate the other before they get a chance to act, and that isn't how I want combats to play out at my table. Killing characters without the players having gotten to act, just because they lost initiative, isn't my style.
Hell yeah! I’ll definitely make a video on that at some point. Seems to be a big topic of discussion and I got some tips on running games with kids 💪🏼 thanks Justin!
For me initative takes like 2 minutes. My players call out what they rolled from high to low and i write them in order on a whiteboard behind me. Then i pretend to roll for the enemys and just roughly space them out between the players turns, i have the players on the left of the whiteboard and enemys on the right. Everyone can see when their turns up and it saves me faffing about working out the enemies initiative. If i have multiple of similar enemies i will mark the minis with numbers on the base prior to the session.
Love this. Many other systems have embraced this including EZD6, especially the “adding modifiers slows down the game”. I don’t even roll anything at initiative and let the narrative drive who goes first, then do group turns.
Love the simplicity of this! And I’ve been meaning to play in an EZD6 game, just haven’t found the time quite yet. It’s on the list though! Thanks for SHARING Drew!
@@HouseDM Absolutely! I find it takes trust and discussion with players; but it offers great unique combat encounters and unique teamwork scenarios vs each player doing their own thing each turn.
The game I play doesn't use an initiative system. If a player says they go then that's the spot in the turn order they go in that combat with the DM going wherever he decides the enemies should go.
Fastest initiative ever Get a magnetic whiteboard Get magnets Write player names on. Call initiative, move players top to bottom correspondingly. Write in enemies (bonus speed, pre-roll enemies) None of this, who got less than 20, less than 15 etc. add people in mid combat? Simply write into a gap.
I love your channel but have played very little DND. I come from PbtA systems and rules-light games because I prefer an unimpeded narrative, like it seems you do. As an outsider I just find it so funny how many people I see hacking dnd until it’s almost unrecognizable. I’d recommend a lot of people branch out and try new systems and not get stuck in the DND rut
I dont mind initiative the way it is i just change it to a d6s instead only applying dex mods when they clash. A quick table 6 to 1 on the top roll your baddies in the middle of the table so you can put players either above or below them and then just go top to bottom left to right. Unless you have a silly amount of monsters it takes way less time.
I also noticed that my game slows down a lot when I need to set up initiative (and I kind of dread that moment now) I tried suggesting an idea I got from XP to Level 3 where you roll initiative at the beginning of a session and use it once combat begins but it got shut down because one of my players insists on having the traditional "roll initiative" signal for having combat begin. Even after I said that I felt like that that grinds the pacing of the session to a halt he does not want so accept an alternative and says he doesn't care. So I guess I'll have to keep the ideas mentioned here in my back pocket and work out the fastest way to set up my initiative tracker to lose as little time as possible. But at least once I got a system for that I can try out the chaos initiative rule, maybe they are going to like that
With all do respect to your player, he is playing YOUR campaign that YOU set up & worked to create as the GM. The way I see it, while it’s important to hear out your player’s, if that particular player doesn’t care enough to hear you out, then you have final say as GM (if he wants to go by technicalities, then that’s the rules), otherwise that player might best be suited for a different group.
The only problem with doing things clockwise is if you're online, you don't really get that, so I would suggest going in either alphabetical order according to people's names (not the characters, the players) or in order of their dexterity score.
We have a small magnetic whiteboard and dry erase magnetic tape that we have a player use to track initiative. When the DM intrduces opponents into the order, we just slide the magnets down to make room. Edit: We have used the board system for 5e, Savage Worlds, White Wolf, Stars Without Number and a few other systems.
I really like how into the odd does initiative. It uses group initiative with no rolling. The players always go first unless there is a narrative reason why they shouldn't.
No! Don't let the bad guy show up and call for iniative! There isn't even combat yet! Let him show up, telegraph that he will attack, wait for the players to declare their characters actions (hide, flee, cast a spell, ram the shield in the ground...) and THEN roll. And only roll if one action would impact an opposed action. Two guys swinging clubs don't need initiative.
5 or 10 minutes feels a lot exagerated. Asking 25 to 20 and writting it down takes less than 1 minute. The problem with group initiative is the group beginning will destroy its ennemies, players or monsters. I agree, dex is busted though. I don't understand how rolling initiative each round would solve initiative rolls taking too long though. What about a fixed speed modifier ? Like tactical games.
Prof Dungeon Master has an effective system that is simple and quick. He simply has everyone say what they are doing. Then they make all attack rolls and damage rolls at once. In only a few minutes that round is done.
Yeah I love his system in theory but have not had a ton of luck with it at the table. I try to gravitate that way but we always result in going one at a time.
How about: all roll a d20, highest roll plus mods goes first, if highest result is even play proceeds clockwise, if odd play proceeds counterclockwise. This would combat the high mods always sitting to the left of the GM by making it a risk to do so.
Decaying initiative is good as well. Each person subtracts a set number from their score after each turn, if their score reaches zero they reroll initiative and are shuffled into the order accordingly. Shadowrun uses this I believe.
@@HouseDM it is exactly those two things lol. It requires a dedicated initiate tracker in the party. It’s an optional houserule at my table and at the moment we aren’t using it.
I use the high-roll method. When I roll initiative for my monster I also roll a d4. Odd on the d4 is clockwise from the wining roll. Even on the d4 counter clockwise from the winning roll. Keeps them from sitting in certain spots to always make the patty go first.
This nearly identical to my method. Only difference is I replace using a d4 with the player high score. If the player's highest initiative score is even, play starts with them and we go clockwise. If odd, play goes counter-clockwise. For monsters, my basic monsters always go last. Some, I do monster(s) in the middle, and the higher powered ones I roll for. If they equal or beat the player score, they go first. It has a balance of brevity and variation that I like.
Personally i prefer to ask people what they wana do in whatever order i wish getting their rolls and then describe everything at once. Everything happens at the same time.
We always roll initiative individually each round for all combatants on the field. Works fine but I personally think initiative should be blind, so players don't know when the monsters are going and can keep the meta gaming down.
Static initiative has always sucked because it gets metagamed. Now l use a standard deck of cards. When combat starts, draw a card. If its red, one of the pc’s goes (players decide who), if its black, one of the gm’s guys (or group of guys) goes. This means turn order is never predictable. Once a player takes their turn, they keep the card that was drawn to show they’ve had a turn and they flip over a new card. Keeps going like this til everyone has acted. One side finishes before the other, the remaining side goes in any order. Someone has an initiative boost, they act first no matter what card is drawn. The only drawback lve had is players arguing over who gets to act on a red card. Otherwise its fast and random. Try it sometime.
I still hate the idea of taking turns in combat. Too orderly, especially since this is all supposed to be happening at once. At worst, I'd like all the players to declare what they intend to do up front before anyone has rolled anything. Then as each player rolls, they are committed to doing what they declared up top regardless of how things have changed since the beginning of the round. (i.e. two of you say you're going to shoot the same target; turns out the first one killed it, but the second character was still taking a shot at it. In fact the DM might not say whether the first hit was enough to kill it; at the end of all the player's rounds that enemy falls dead with two arrows in him. At best I'd love to have all the players literally act at the same time, maybe even using a probability device other than dice rolling, whose results are immediately discernible without doing any math. That would make combat fast and super-exciting/high adrenaline. Just like it should be.
Interesting ideas, but as a primarily online dm, there are turn order tools that are built into roll20 and other online table tops that make it easy to track turn order. Usually rolling initiative takes a couple minutes, but that gives my players the time to strategize before the first turns of combat, so this isn't really wasted time. Also, having enemy turns often be between individual players turns helps maintain pressure across all players and make down and death situations more stressful.
However, this is with a group of 4 players, when I was running a significantly less organized and experienced table of 6 I think this would have been an amazing rule to speed up combats which were usually boringly long.
Thanks Spapez! And yeah, I’m honestly impressed with the tools for online websites like roll20 and Owlbear rodeo. I know in an online setting, things are much different. I find it so interesting how different people play ttrpg’s, both in person, and online.
I agree that initiative is clunky as is. However, group initiative can seriously mess with the flow of battle, making fights too swinging and removing tactical depth. For this reason, I just have players roll for initiative and place one enemy between each player, in order of their dex mod. There are more enemies than players, I chunk together enemies to make the amount of initiatives aof players and enemies the same.
In my B/X games i had all the players sit round the table in DEX order. And roll group initiative. i do the same thing in ShadowDark. Works for me. All my players are wargamers... so ..... maybe other tables would find this a problem ?
I’ve tried this, and it isn’t “solving” initiative. It just has its own unique set of problems just like standard initiative. By default, due to the action economy, the game is *already* stacked on the players’ side. Letting them all go first usually ends up trouncing your monsters in the first round and handicapping you as the DM. Conversely, it’s not fun as a player for all of the monsters to go first and it feels like you’re in a surprise round. Then to top it off knowing every round is just one or the other option? You lose so much nuance and spontaneity of normal initiative. It’s also narratively fun for random players to get to go first or for the normally high perception character to be caught unaware. It also sucks knowing if my usual spot is to the right of the DM, I have to go last on every round. Also, rolling up my stats and making a unique character is part of what makes D&D fun. Players get robbed of that any time my ability scores get ignored.
All valid points. And you’re right, it’s definitely a trade off and not a “solution”. But is it really worth the time figuring out who’s next each time? I’ve found that my players, more often than not, will “check-out” when it’s not their turn in combat. Group initiative keeps them all engaged. And you’re right about it feeling like players can trounce monsters if they win initiative and I’m totally fine with that. I usually play in games with lower HP so winning or losing initiative can be huge! And not every fight is worth fighting. Pros and cons for each I suppose but already, I’ve learned of some other initiative systems people have shared in the comments that are quite brilliant!
A big problem with "initiative" in RPGs is that in real world combat, initiative is a matter of who chooses to go first, and the quicker more skilled fighter very likely wants to let the inferior opponent go first. In an RPG it just determines turn order with the tiniest sliver of an advantage for going first. D&D (all versions) does not lend itself well to the correct interpretation of initiative, so in as much as it is about turn order anyway, group initiative is much better.
In real life, the people losing initiative never even know they are initiative. Military ambushes are always triggered with the most dangerous weapon and likely to cause mass casualties. Lol, it doesn't work well in games.
@@archersfriend5900 Your are confusing "initiative" with "surprise". Initiative simply means making the first move in such a way that your opponent must react to what you do. An ambush is a surprise attack -- you get to act when your opponent is unaware of you and is not even ready to _react._ If you are facing off with an enemy swordsman and he makes a cut to your head, you have to parry, or dodge, or step back, before you can riposte. He made the first move because you were more patient and waited longer than he did. Now you must react to his move, but if you are quicker and more skilled that is probably to your advantage, as he will likely over-extend, get off balance, or otherwise open himself up to your counter-attack. Of course, if you have surprise, you _also_ take initiative, otherwise, what was the point of surprise.
I do individual initiative with Reasoning/quickness modifiers. I thought it is more realistic and my players like it. Halflings have the advantage and that balances the combat since they have the strength disadvantage.
Wouldn't the main issue here be damage "creep" ? Meaning, if you want an encounter with a lot of individual enemies, PCs will have to potentially soak up a lot of unneeded damage (especially if you have 4+ players that could terminate some of those before their initiative come at any given turn)? I feel like that's not the solution for me, even though it got me thinking about the whole initiative thing. Maybe making it a static number instead of a roll could work ? In this manner, handling a turn order sheet is simpler as you can pre-fill it with your player stats and only update it when needed during some level ups ?
to avoid that issue i split my groups of small monsters in 2-3 groups and i have small color rings with numbers to identify them at the table. This usually solves swarming but sometimes initiative just does that where its just players then monsters anyways...
@@RPGSulSide that is one way. I use fantasy grounds when playing at the table and it does roll all of the initiatives for my monsters. If I want to save more time I can make it roll it for the players too.
Roll d6 once at the beginning, group initiative only one person and the DM. No more rolling initiative every round. Waste of time imho. Players decide who goes when on their side it can change every round so long as everyone gets their turn. Sometime depending on the narrative player or creature goes first not need to roll.
I have tried rolling initiative every round in the past, some game systems come with that from the start. And I HATED it! It made the game just needless slow. It is just as horrible as the stupid idea of telling in reverse order what one wants to do in a turn and then execute it in the normal order. But overall I don't like any of the methods you talked here, there are better ones out there. Personally I use something I would call the basketball initiative. I usually let the player start with the initiative who started the altercation (and if that was an NPC, then well that NPC is going first). No rolls. After that the initiative is always passed to whom ever the character interacts with, if an ally gets aided, then that ally is next, if an opponent gets attacked, then that opponent goes next. Only if the target has already acted, then the player can decide to pass the initiative to someone of their choice who has not acted yet this turn. To keep track, I usually have everyone a playing card in front of them, that is face up when they have not acted yet, and gets turned face down when they did their action for the turn (but your lights should work well for that too). Should I ever return to rolling initiative, especially in D&D, then I probably would use CHA as stat, since in my opinion initiative is someone one seizes not something that happens, and well CHA is often described as force of personalty, and that makes me think that would be the right ability to check for initiative if one wants to roll that stuff.
Yeah, I don't know about this one. the game becomes very swingy. If the whole party gets to go first they can nuke the action economy heavily to their side. Or if all the baddies get to go first,players might be in a huge trouble. Honestly I like current initiative system
@@HouseDM I think as in, the winner of the encounter will be determined heavily by which side gets to go first. It makes encounters much more difficult to balance when you need to plan for the fact that in some situations, 1-2 players will be dead or at least incapacitated before they ever get a turn.
@@Guy_With_A_Laser I see. I actually don’t really balance my encounters anymore. I’ve sort of shifted to a “combat as war” style where players need to do everything they can to win the combat quickly and efficiently. Finding the quickest way to get the upper hand and win combat quickly helps speed things along. Of course not all fights are like this, sometimes you just gotta hit shit, but I definitely humor my players if they find a solid way to win the battle creatively.
Frack yes 5e initiative is broken. Screw that. DM rules based on circumstances (who's in front, who's using a missile weapon or long weapon) or each SIDE rolls d6 and just go counterclockwise and GO. It's not gunslinger sim, first move isn't quite so critical.
House DM, great tips! 👊👍 Yes, Dex matters, I like it! Also you could just do initiative by Dexterity. Yes, Wisdom is perception why have a separate thing for it! For group initiative roll a D20, D6, D4, flip a coin, it does not matter. Now, let's get you weaned off of that popular but crummy WizBros TTRPG. 😁
Hahaha working on it Mr Gunn! Just have a couple more 5e vids I’ve had in the queue and then I’m donzo. My release schedule is like 2 months delayed from moving past 5e lol. We’re getting there 💪🏼
This is one of many iterations of initiative I’ve gone through. What’s your favorite initiative system?
Dndbeyond encounter tool. Auto roll for monsters. Call players in the order you want or top tot bottom on your screen, fill in, and go. It also tracks rounds, which I always forget. The only slowing factora here are your players.
My favorite system is not using initiative. PDM has multiple videos on this. Initiative is literally not needed.
Every player rolls initiative against a static DC to see if they get a go before the monsters. After that, clockwise starting with DM.
I have posted in a separate comment the system I currently using. But I really liked the system from SLA Industries (1st edition). Where I just could yell: "ONE!" And the payers would automatically know combat started and usually also who is going first, since the initiative had been there rather static (even though there had been interesting ways to get extra actions outside the normal turn order using combat drugs, which had their own issues for the characters). That made combat really fast paced and many other things like damage also had been static (while still being rather lethal). With the right group entire fights that would last an hour in D&D could be handled in under a minute.
Not good if your rogue has abilities based off going before others in initiative... I just use an app or program running on the side. Can even auto roll all at once including players if needing to go really fast, or have them give me their numbers and type them in super fast.
The only issue I have with Group Initiative is that it exacerbates the balance problems for combat, especially with singular baddies. If the whole party gets to go, there is a chance that your baddie gets capped before his turn. Even with minions, if the party wisely chooses to focus-fire...
I've thought about that before and all I could come up with is; if the PCs kill an NPC before said NPC's turn in a round, he still gets that turn but dies immediately after. Since the combat is theoretically happening at the same time...
@@jamesdavid1874 another option from straight group initiative is alternating - PC, DM, PC... Works for bosses with minions as well as single bosses with "Villain Actions" or similar
Yup
I roll d6’s for “side” initiative and it’s the only roll where the DM is favored on the roll (a 6 means I get to go first this time no matter what) then it sets the turns into motion, DM, PC, DM,PC etc with the minions or lesser initiative monsters going in the middle of the Pc turns
If your baddie just stands there like a Zombie then sure it can be a problem.........but if reactive actions are allowed to both sides then you create a narrative far more realistic and interesting!
I actually roll initiative at the start of the session, and we use that the whole session. It helps me make sure all players get equal chance of the spotlight, without having the table over taken by more vocal players
For almost two decades I've used group initiative. Triggering character or closest to triggering incident rolls for the group. Then it's the player's turn they go in order of their initiative modifier. Usually have the group sit by initiative modifier either weaving accross or around the table in order of initiative modifier which honours any features or feats they have that boost initiative.
Another one I am trialing now (might be my new fave) is a variation on group Initiative which uses the initiative roll as a kind of Suprise d20 test. They use their initiative modifier to a d20 roll which honours feats and features. The DC is set by how 'suprising/alarming/unanticipated' the inciting incident is. Crawling through a dungeon usually results in a lower DC than an ambush during dinner mid conversation, for example. Those who pass the save go first, then the DM, then the players who failed. Within those groupings I just go in seated order as I've already honoured their initiative bonus in the save. So far I love it.
Omg you are literally describing the system I just switched to. Since making this video, a lot of people have commented mentioning this quasi-group initiative but with a DC depending on the circumstances of the encounter. And then the 3 groups, winners of the DC, monsters, and last, the losers against the DC. Love it!
Shadow of the Demon Lord has a really simple, streamlined initiative system--side-based initiative where the players always go first but with the turn divided into two phases: "fast turns" (an action) and "slow turns" (an action and a move). The turn breaks down as follows: Player Fast Turn; Monster Fast Turn; Player Slow Turn; Monster Slow Turn. If two players are acting in the same phase they have to figure out the order (some people might roll for it, my group just goes with whoever blurts their action out first). This took a little bit of getting used to for my group and I found it helpful to note the turn number and phase so everyone was clear (so far I've only run the game via VTT so I just put it in the chat...for in person games I've made a mock up of a double-sided token I can flip to represent the phase).
The most recent playtest document for the followup game, Shadow of the Weird Wizard, breaks it down even more simply: monsters go first but players can "seize the initiative" (which is just a different name for taking a "fast turn"). The SotWW combat turn breaks down as follows: Seize the Initiative, Monster Turn, Player Turn. This means the GM doesn't even have to track which monsters are doing which sort of turn and has a very flavorful vibe: monsters go first, which is threatening; "seizing the initiative" feels like a heroic response in the face of that threat. I think this is, overall, a big improvement and is probably the one I'd recommend to someone wanting to adopt a homebrew initiative system for their game.
I think a better way is probably to have the sides take turns--player 1, monster 1, player 2, monster 2, etc. Group initiative combat feels like it would be super swingy to me.
I don't usually find initiative to be particularly time-consuming, honestly. I use a spreadsheet and just take the player's initiative in order around the table and then sort the column at the end and it's pretty quick. I usually have the monster's initiative scores pre-rolled, or I'll just assign them a value that seems appropriate (usually a 5, 10, 15, or 20, or sometimes I will use the monster's raw Dex score).
The things that I find slow combat down the most are usually:
-Too many creatures, characters, summons, or NPCs on the field. I find more than about 10 total starts to get sluggish.
-Abilities like polymorph where a player has to switch to a new statblock or use new abilities
-Players not understanding their character's abilities or spells
-Players not paying attention to what is happening when it isn't their turn
-Having to roll/add huge numbers of dice (as the DM, I will roll a big pile of dice the first time an ability is used because it intimidates the players; after that I'll use the average or a dice roller for anything more than 4dX).
This sounds like a solution looking for a problem, tbh. There are plenty of ways to organize initiative that flow easily and work better than these "fixes" do.
Group initiative just heavily unbalances encounters.
Switching it to a character then a monster just turns initiative into a dump stat.
My favorite variant 5E initiative rule is to countdown using "passive initiative" (10+Initiative bonus). This rewards players who prioritized initiative in their character design and establishes a consistent turn order that's easy to remember.
Savage Worlds' initiative works with a deck with playing cards, every player draws a card at the beginning of the new round. If you get an ace you additionally get +2 on all rolls.
I think Savage Worlds represents an interesting alternative to making initiative faster: making it fun and easy to track. That said, it is something that turned me off considering I was mostly playing remotely with a vtt and dealing cards becomes a pain in the ass (not hard to do but certainly not as much fun as doing it with real cards).
Critical Role makes it look easy and fast. But I just call out to the table "who has no armor" (they go first). Players beat monsters. And after that combat is done for those actors I move on to who is attacking with spears, and so on. Makes choosing your equipment more important and realistic as well. These range and weight factors are entirely more important in actual physical combat than "dexterity" or other "attribute" factors to determine the "quick draw". A weak layperson with a spear is almost always going to get the first shot over an expert fighter with a knife. Even if that first shot is crap and little risk to the better fighter. This is why Naginatas were used for home defence by women in ancient Japan. “A woman armed with a naginata could keep all but the best warriors at a distance, where all the advantages of strength, weight or sword counted for less." according to Ellis Amdur in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts.
Oooo I really like this. I'm making my own TTRPG right now and I've been trying to come up with an interesting way of doing initiative. I'm going to run with this: Unarmored > Light Armor > Medium Armor > Heavy Armor. We can determine who goes first in these groupings by seeing which group (players vs monsters) has the highest Wisdom, with the characters in each group going in any order they wish.
Crown and skull phases and rounds…also I really like the tea light idea.
I've been trying a bigger diversion from classic D&D Initiative but one that I'd encourage other people to give a whirl.
Each round of combat, I start by telling the players what the monsters are attempting to do (or describing some telegraph for what the monster might do) and ask them all what they want to do. They write a brief, vague description such as 'Cast X spell' or 'Use Y weapon' on a mini whiteboard. Then, everyone rolls the relevant d20 test at the same time, and the actions are resolved in order from the highest rolls to the lowest rolls, with players wiping their boards as their actions are resolved. This makes combat extremely fast-paced and frenetic and my players have loved it so far, although it is also very difficult for people to always keep track of what's going on. I recommend trying it out, think of it like a big combo of many of House DM's tips!
I'm not a big fan of the system in general, but I liked Lancer's initiative system. Essentially the players collectively decide who goes first, followed by an NPC, followed by a player chosen by the last player to act.
It took a minute for my players to adjust to the idea of sharing and acting collaboratively, but once they learned, the initiative was fast and added a layer of tactics to the fight.
Haven't tried to port it to another system yet, and it's certainly not for everyone, but it was one I hadn't seen before and enjoyed it!
(Edit: it also helps players from checking out, as no one knows who will be chosen to go next by the last player, and since they are active participants in the process.)
I have been doing a group/beginning of each round initiative role since I’ve been playing way back when I started in 1980. As the DM I roll for the monsters and then the players roll. Highest goes first. Each round we roll.
What I like after watching this video is the players role as a group. Then I as Dm roll for the monster group. All without modifiers. High roll wins. (Coin toss would work).
Repeat this process beginning of each round. The players, as a group, decides who does what and in what order. Group strategy/tactics/ teamwork.
i use a modified reactionary version of the non-initiative system from Dungeon World in my games, where players still roll initiative but as a skill check (higher DC for more difficult encounters) and anyone who succeeds gets a d12 combat inspiration die that acts like a bardic inspiration (one time use, goes away after combat, but can also add to damage rolls). Tougher enemies and bosses can also get this.
Then the combat starts with one of the players choosing to go first (they can decide when in the round they act), followed by a GM action which can be a turn of a monster or grouped set of weaker monsters, or an environmental action such as rocks falling or lightning striking etc. Each player only has their action, b. action, and movement, and most monsters function the same with the exception of boss enemies which can have multiple (legendary) actions per round.
They key aspect of this system is that both the players and the enemies are constantly reacting to each other in a back and forth, and it works best when the GM telegraphs actions (especially movement) ahead of time so players can see what may happen next and strategize. On the surface it may sound unfair to one side, but my style of combat tends to be very difficult, so it’s vital that players can work together, even choosing to move or take actions at the same time (in which case just remember for every action a player uses, that’s one GM action for you to use in response).
Lastly, if multiple PCs or NPCs are both trying to do the same thing simultaneously, such as reaching for an item, shooting a target or racing to get somewhere first, then you can make a contested roll to see who does it faster. Also if you don’t want to choose which GM action to take, just roll a die and let fate decide :3
High Roll Goes First would work well if after initiative is rolled, a coin is flipped to determine if the order goes clockwise OR counterclockwise from there. If it can’t be predicted players can’t cheese it… as easily.
This is a solid idea 💪🏼
Another cool initiative system is the black sword hack’s. Basically all the players roll wisdom (roll below your ability score) those that succeed the attribute test go before the monsters. Those that fail go after. If you get a critical success (nat 1, it’s a roll low system) then you get an extra action on the first round, if you get a critical failure (nat 20) then you only have 1 actions instead of 2 on the first round
Oooh that’s pretty sick too. I just watched the Professors video on Black Sword Hack. It’s certainly my type of game. Cheers Andrew!
Hey Jake, so I’ve been so fascinated by D&D since 1985 but my brother would never let me play. As I got older I just never found anyone else interested so I never played. Still fascinated and know how the game works. My 12 year old son, now is fascinated and wants to play, so I’ve decided to be a DM. Your videos are amazing and have been helping me a lot with getting started. Haven’t ran anything yet but I just wanted to say THANK YOU 🙏🏽 for your videos!
Hey Caleb! That’s so wonderful to hear! Thank you. I’ve actually had a “running games for kids” video I’ve been meaning to write up now for awhile. Sounds like you might find that useful 😁
Your son is lucky to have you run games for him🤘🏼Rock on!
I was a little disappointed that you didn't note that group initiative IS classic initiative. B/X and AD&D both used it. But I'm glad you brought it up. It's so much easier than individual initiative and is no less "realistic" for an abstracted combat system. Also, I'm all in favor of rerolling initiative every round. I mean, if you can have initiative why can't you lose it? Or gain it?
5e player make a houserule that isn't just a mechanic from a previous edition challenge (impossible)
LOL, came to post this. The host here doesn't have the perspective on the game's history or wouldn't use the term "classic initiative" ... individual cyclic initiative only entered the game with 3E (though IIRC it may have been a Skills & Powers options in 2E). Maybe next he'll ask the party to appoint a caller to tell the DM what the party's actions will be.
Hah! Oh no! I totally spaced that OSE uses d6 group initiative. Wow thats actually hilarious. I never had the privilege to play B/X or AD&D so it makes sense I missed that. Good catch Keith!
In 2nd ed the DM decides what the monsters want to do, then the players declare what the characters want to do, and then initiative is rolled. Initiative is not turn order. It is a tie breaker. Group initiative meant that one roll was used for the group. You could still apply modifiers.
Suggestion to speed up chaos initiative: get a deck of cards, pick out as many cards as your players plus one, associate each card to one player and the last to the monsters. When it comes down to initiative simply draw a card to see who's turn it is, faster than having the players roll each round.
If you want you can add more cards for different monsters, but I usually have all my monsters go at once
(yes this works only if you don't add modifiers)
Yes. For my 3 youth games, when a player triggers a combat encounter, I announce that player roll an opposing d6 for the party against the foe. The higher number gets first turn. Left to right, players then take turns making actions with the ability to mix up their actions if they cross their fingers during combat (which gives me a visual cue someone needs to interrupt another's turn).
We easily go through 1 round of combat with 6 players in 6 minutes. We also only allow 1 action per turn, ICRPG style.
So, yes, combat is brutal, quick and exciting.
Love the tealight idea!!!
Initiative has always been some thing my table struggles with and has persisted into my career as a game designer, I feel it’s such a tough one to get down because it differentiates between the preference of each table. Great video to cover nonetheless! 😊
Suppose a radical thing would be just remove initiative or have a skill or stat for different classes separately from dex or just make all enemies when it isn’t stealth just naturally go first . One thing I found interesting was in Cyberpunk TTRPG they had a way for you to do skill rolls as a group (like hacking or breaking a lock 🔏 you combine all the player characters in the party skills .
I use this separate stat called ‘Vigor’ and it works wonders! (:
Sharing this with the other DMs in my group.
So when I played in person I generally used a hybrid group initiative. Everyone rolled initiative and went in that order. The bad guys all went on a single initiative. So as a DM, I had only to worry about 1 initiative to act on. In practice this turned into baddies, players, baddies, players which some of the players being able to act initially before the baddies.
I also used index cards as initiative trackers. Cheap easy to use and I saved them between sessions.
Nowadays I play online with foundry so everyone just rolls when I call out for initiative and it sorts them automatically. I also run each enemy on a separate turn now like normal initiative works and it works fine.
Nice! Index cards are hella useful. Thanks for sharing Jonah!
I'm just scratching my head over it taking 5 mins to do a 30 sec task.
Group initiative (letting the players roll 20s taking the highest against the monsters) sounds like it's OP but it's still a cool idea. You could make the players that comprise a "group" need to stand a certain distance apart from one another or have some sort of telepathic link and other members that are further off need to roll separately. Standing shoulder to shoulder should generally bring some sort of a communication advantage over just spreading out randomly and ignoring what the other party members are doing.
Or, and here me out on this, you roll initiative at the start of the session.
This is a rule I am going to try. Every player rolls initiative and shares it with the DM and ONLY the DM. For in person sessions, the DM can pass out notecards or slips of paper at the start of the session, everyone writes down their name, initiative roll, and initiative bonus (for tiebreakers) and passes it to the DM. You can do the same thing with private messages in online games and the DM can roll for monsters and set up the full turn order during other moments in the game or before the session even starts. This way, rather the the monster emerging and attacking the Party and then everyone pausing while Initiative is rolled and turn order is established, instead you just say “and now we enter initiative” and the DM has the initiative order set already and we jump right into combat.
It’s the best of both worlds IMO. Group Initiative is rough on balancing, especially against single monsters, and this does not take away mechanics from players who do spec into Initiative bonuses via high Dex scores, Feats, and subclass choices. Everyone wins.
Two things I've always done with classic initiative:
- Use index cards to track initiative. One card for each player, two cards for monsters (minions and boss), one for allies and one for lair/end of turn. When players roll, go clockwise around the table to get their numbers and put the cards in order. Takes almost no time.
- Use a flat initiative for monsters. Instead of rolling, just use 10 + the monster's modifier. Same types of monsters go on the same turn. If the battle has a massive number of minions, just split them in half, and remove 5 from the initiative for the 2nd group.
This is nearly exactly what I do. It works very fast at my table.
A technique I use for initiative is this:
1. I desribe the situation and the adversaries that the party can see.
2. Each player then chooses whether they shall go before or after their adversaries.
3. Those players who chose to go first then carry out their actions. Note: these can be in a sequence they choose or simultaneously.
4. Then their adversaries act.
5. Then those players who chose to go last then carry out their actions. Note: as before, these can be in a sequence they choose or simultaneously.
6. Each round let the players make their choices again.
Note:If the party's adversaries have surprise they go first on that round only. The we revert to the rules above.
Player characters are tight knit group and often have to rely on teamwork, they are also the heroes, so this system shows that.
In practice, during the first encounter that you use these rules many players will automatically go first. Though they soo realise the advantages of letting your enemy make their mistakes then reacting to them.
Some front liners quickly learn that if they weather the storm by going last in a round, they can then choose to go first in the next, essentially getting two turns in a row.
After a single encounter I find the players get a lot more canny, we no longer have to track any sort of initiative, and things seem to flow more naturally.
I have a very different experience for my first time dming - I just jot down initials and initiative rolls for players and creatures, reorganize the initials, and go down the list - maybe I'll hit more issues when I have more than three kinds of monsters in the order but? I've never seen this as too much of an issue
Even then, just merge similar creatures 😅
shuffling each session where players sit at the table is a solution to the fixed clockwise idea; also mixes up who sits next to who which can change the social dynamic really well, especially for reserved and quiet people who might be stuck distant from the DM.
Another way we play is to pre-roll initiative after the last encounter, DM notes it down. Very fast for no breaks in the action.
Yeah I don’t really want to “assign seats” by telling players where they can and cannot sit. My players are pretty good about just swapping spots anyways but as a general concept, it could be gamed.
I do like your idea about pre rolling initiative. Also acts as interesting meta knowledge for deciding on whether or not to engage in the next fight if their initiatives were rolled poorly 🤔
@@HouseDM they could roll where they sit, you don't have to take on that responsibility. My experience with teenagers is that they tend to sit where they first sat, mixing it up bought out more focus and some great interactions. Pre-rolling 3 or even 5 initiative bundles (with enough room for you to insert monster groups) is also good. Then you pick a player to roll a die and the result is the order...they would have forgotten that by the next session and you still have more up your sleeve. Can also be a good wrap up at end of session, everyone gets to roll d20's before they go home. But clockwise is just so clean isn't it?
your videos are so good, well thought out and concise. Looking forward to the next one!
Another Option Is Phased Group Initative
Same PCs then GM but certain action occur in certain phases
Status Effects
1. Verbal
2 Melee Combat (PCs then GM)
3. Missile Combat
4. Movement
5. Object Interactions
6. Magic Combat
Obvi interrupts may trigger when applicable.
For our up coming Jaws inspired game, we've been using a variant of High Roll.
1. All the PCs roll Initiative
2. One with the highest goes first, yes the rogues first more often, but not all the time
3. The first person chooses to go clock or counter clockwise
they often try to go around the table before me, the DM, but there's a reason
4. when it gets me, I go all out on them with all the monsters and NPCs.
Ya high dex characters benefit the most from this, that's kinda hard to avoid
but just going around the table from the first person "to act" or "roll highest" has made combat so much easier
Normally I hate being a DM doing a bunch of stuff on my turn, and I don't roll damage as a DM, and for NPC checks and saves I have players roll for them, which helps players care about the NPCs a bit more
I do like the chaos initiative as a monster skill, that's super fun!
This is a cool idea! Big fan of them choosing clockwise or counter clockwise. Adds a fun bit of choice. And it doesn’t need to be DEX. Could be WIS or a straight roll.
Also, what the hell is a “Jaws inspired game”. Like hunting a massive great white monster? Sounds lit 🤘🏼
@@HouseDM thx i adapted jaws into a fantasy dnd adventure 😇😈 it’s some of the best dnd we’ve ever played, looking forward to sharing it on the channel in August
RE: Stats - Compromise position: DEX for martials, WIS for full casters, choice of either for half-casters.
I 'invented' chaos mode when i noticed you could reroll initiative in Korbold Fight club.
Prep encounter, click roll initiative, complete round, click roll initiative again.
Easy and fast.
So I took over initiative altogether and don't tell my players.
My group found it made the combats more engaging, tactical and makes the initiative stat important.
For extra spice, combine this with the DM secretly rolling death saves for PC'S.
Love secret death saves if you use death saves 😉
And yeah, I love how tactical combat can get when the initiative could change each round. It’s wild.
we do side initative (usually just players vs enemies but there can be a spicy 3rd group) and we reroll every round.
it works absolutely fine. I usuaslly have a red and blue d6 in a center dice tray
I think one easy criticism of this Group Initiative is that "one side, then the next" results in a fight where you can dogpile a single enemy before they have a chance to act.
Now granted, single enemy encounters are typically bad game design, especially for larger groups unless they have reactions and legendary actions. However, they do have a time and a place.
I was thinking of other options to circumvent this and all i could really think of was using modifiers as the order. No dice rolls needed. Players and enemies go in order of their modifiers.
Slow creatures are always slow, fast are always fast.
I'd be curious to hear what other ideas people come up with.
Not a bad idea. But then even if you write all of that down ahead of time, you still have to sort of out them in order since monsters bonuses are typically different and PCs will level up and have theirs change over time too. I like where your head is at though.
And just because players all get to “dogpile” an enemy, doesn’t mean they will connect with their attacks or even do enough damage to kill then. So there’s that factor there too.
Curious to hear more about your idea in practice 🤔
@@HouseDM I haven't tried it out, as I never really felt a need to deviate from normal initiative. But, considering the goal was to stop the immersion break point that initiative is, this was my cleanest solution that came to mind.
I would make sure I always have my party initiative bonuses to hand. Then when we enter combat, BOOM, point to the fastest player and tell them they're up. No break in pacing at all.
@@MKxJUMP gotcha. Might have to give this one a shot then. Thanks for the idea!
ICRPG which encourages clockwise turn order also encourages sitting around the table in an optimised order. healers and buffers at the front, tanks at the back, etc.
Initiative as a Skill, not a Modifier. Ultimately functions the same, but allows player investment, with more investment paying off more often.
This gives the players agency while also allowing RNGesus to take the wheel.
Use a deck of cards. 13/kings go first with a bonus or additional action.
7's choose to go before or after the monsters.
1/aces go dead last with an additional action.
Jokers copy any active initiative card currently showing, or alternatively can copy a number in the discarded initiative pile.
Who has the momentum is determined by circumstance, like in Ironsworn. Enemies or players can try to sieze momentum for their side, but that takes their entire turn. Big risk, big reward.
Initiative is more than just luck, and training. It's both.
Once everyone goes, discard the cards, draw a new one each.
For swarms or hordes, or enemies with something like Pack Tactics, group them into pairs or triples depending on how many are on the table. Though, I personally treat a horde of enemies as a Skill Challenge or Chase Sequence.
Typically you don't need to so this, as most enemy counts are equal or roughly so, to the player count.
Frankly, combat should be dangerous and not leapt into without a second thought. Smart play should be rewarded, instead "I smack the HP Sack till it dies."
Should be an Or between "...take the wheel" and "...Deck of cards..."
I've been fiddling around with initiative, because of the same issues you mentioned.
It bogs down the game, takes the player out of moment.
However, what I also noticed is... HP and Combat are NOT lethal enough, and they need to work together to really get the most out of Initiative, which is a big part of it. Static initiative has a place, but frankly... It's boring, and unless you have players adjacent to each other or on the same Init count, they don't try to work together. At all. That, however, is a player problem.
It's part of the reason AC, Dmg and HP are always disproportionate to each other, and why things either swing hard, or turn into a slog. They need to be tuned with each other in mind. Using a winnie the pooh jigsaw piece, does not work with an elmo jigsaw puzzle. They are connected, and should be balanced as such.
Initiative is distinctly and intrinsically tied to combat as we know it. So if we change it, we need to alter how combat itself works, not on a micro level, but on a macro.
As I said, static has a place. It works for 5e, barely. Rotating or rerolled init is time consuming, and makes combat longer and less intense. Randomized with a couple control variables that can be altered with agency, is what I found works best.
As for dice, I use D12. D20 is too large a range with too much disparity, despite being nearly identical.
In terms of design. I "borrowed" concepts from Mekton, Ironsworn, Pathfinder, Pathfinder 2e, 5e, Savage Worlds.
The thing is... Each system typically does something that works... At least one thing at minimum, exceptionally well. If it translates... Why NOT use it? If just requires a minor tweak, why NOT tweak it?
I like your initiative idea and have added it in my current stars without number game.
I like what Knave 2nd edition uses and that's the highest Charisma in the party. This implies that the leader of the group can organize and get them to attack the quickest.
Trying this, and at the top of each round they fight to retain control of initiative through intimidation/persuasion, crits/fumbles, so morale can play heavily. That way, a bard who doesn't do much damage could be pivotal in maintaining control of initiative
Sounds really fricken intense 😅
I like your options. will try all of them maybe
Woooo!
I have not had the issue of starting-encounter Initiative taking more than a minute or two, but I did do something as a DM that did speed up the process and could be a solution you're looking for. In my campaign when it came time to roll for initiative, I would have my players roll the normal way (d20+dex mod.) and then I would go around the table asking what they got and writing it on a piece of paper.
The difference begins in that the Monsters do not roll, the DM just determines what number they have in the initiative order depending on what feels right at the moment and according to the monsters. Lower-level monsters who were caught off-guard by the players but not enough for a surprise round would middle around the 10ish range or below, making players feel invigorated and ready to fight as they likely will roll higher, and even if they roll low, it will be just as surprising for both sides. While things like the BBEG, or really strong monsters who are expecting the party, would be at or over 18 to really set the stakes of what they can do early on, and having players dread at them going first, while rewarding your Dex classes and high rollers who will feel proud and confident at going just before the bad guy.
The other thing I do to help speed things up is to group up monsters by monster-type in the initiative order, not monster individuals. This allows more control over the monsters and allows them to be more of a challenge as they move and act in one turn and can work together, but still being fair in that there is still separation between types of creatures.
I do not tell the players what the monsters are at in the order, but instead after the turn is over, I will announce whose turn it is next, and we keep going forward. After the first-round things stabilize out and players will be in a much better position to communicate their battle plans and defeat the encounter.
I use static initiative. No rolling. So the initiative order does not change through the whole campaign unless a player chooses to increase their initiative. Basically whatever your initiative bonus is determines when you go.
I did the rerolling initiative after every fight in dungeon crawls (took inspiration from darkest dungeon) however, i have an initiative app that allows me to hit a button and get the new rolls for everyone. it speeds up the game immensely, my table trusts im not fudging numbers and It keeps people on their toes.
EDIT: i do usually change one rule for these types of encounters. "Till the end of your next turn" is now "till the end of the next ROUND" (ruling it depending on if the end the previous round and start the next) obviously, don't adjust this if you are doing a GRITTY hard combat setting.
Ohhh yeah can't argue with the randomness of an initiative app. Cheers!
For overland adventures where the party is traveling as a group but in an open area, I let them decide their initiative ahead of time. We then roll for group initiative. If they decide they don’t like that order, they can change it after the combat is completely finished. For regular, planned combat, I have already rolled for the enemies ahead of time.
Yeeee rolling for the enemies ahead of time is great but it doesn’t work well for “chaos mode” 😉
Starting ShadowDark now and I'm thinking of just using the DEX STAT as a PCs fixed intiative score at the start. While rolling group initiative for combat as used in Mork Borg.
@lindybeige suggests experience as the edge in initiative.
The hard boiled veteran will assess the situation and react quicker than the greenhorn.
Maybe the higher levelled group gets advantage on their initiative roll.
That would be cool to utilize sometime but in games like Shadowdark, the Thief can get a talent where they get advantage. A strong reasons to play one 👍🏼
@@HouseDM Rouges Rule 🔥
Been doing clockwise starting from my left for a while now with a few caveats - if a particular PC starts the fight, they roll against the monster - whichever wins goes then we proceed clockwise from that PC - and I drop any other monsters in wherever seems right
"Nothing kills the excitement faster than initiative"
Um what?
Thats the second best part!!
What’s the best part then?
@@HouseDM I play a lot of rogues.
Sneak attacking is the best part.
Don't get me wrong, I like character building etc, but going first to knock out a critical opponent is so rewarding.
Here's what I do like about some of your ideas and others.
Set initiatives for baddies - set your boss to x.
Ask if people are higher than x. Resolve ties.
Then however many levels of henchmen you have. For instance, officers, and then minions or fodder.
Doing this initiative takes like 2 minutes. It also rewards builds that need good initiative rolls and those that build for it. This is like group initiative and makes it a lot easier to deal with. If you have a lot of baddies you can spread them out if say, 10 go between player 3 and 4.
I love chaos, but not per round but based upon something like the boss going invisible. Something that people react to.
I do something similar, except that each side switches off after acting.
So we roll off for initiative. Let's assume the players win: player 1 > monster 1 > player 2 > monster 2 > ...and so on. If one side runs out of turns, the other side takes their remaining turns and then a new round begins.
That way it isn't all or nothing. IME, using side initiative confers too much of an advantage to whichever side can act first. With focus fire, the side that wins can decimate the other before they get a chance to act, and that isn't how I want combats to play out at my table. Killing characters without the players having gotten to act, just because they lost initiative, isn't my style.
Great episode! Tea lights FTW! I'd love to hear more tips for running games with kids!
Hell yeah! I’ll definitely make a video on that at some point. Seems to be a big topic of discussion and I got some tips on running games with kids 💪🏼 thanks Justin!
For me initative takes like 2 minutes. My players call out what they rolled from high to low and i write them in order on a whiteboard behind me.
Then i pretend to roll for the enemys and just roughly space them out between the players turns, i have the players on the left of the whiteboard and enemys on the right. Everyone can see when their turns up and it saves me faffing about working out the enemies initiative. If i have multiple of similar enemies i will mark the minis with numbers on the base prior to the session.
Love this. Many other systems have embraced this including EZD6, especially the “adding modifiers slows down the game”. I don’t even roll anything at initiative and let the narrative drive who goes first, then do group turns.
Love the simplicity of this! And I’ve been meaning to play in an EZD6 game, just haven’t found the time quite yet. It’s on the list though! Thanks for SHARING Drew!
@@HouseDM Absolutely! I find it takes trust and discussion with players; but it offers great unique combat encounters and unique teamwork scenarios vs each player doing their own thing each turn.
This is the way I do it to. It does take players who aren't to invested into rules-lawyering. The flow is awesome 🙂
@@merkron2680 hell yeah! This is the way.
@@merkron2680 100% Its not for everyone and puts some more responsibility on the GM, but creates so many more memorable events.
The Alfred E. Neumann game from MAD is played counter clockwise, of course 😄
Of course.
The game I play doesn't use an initiative system. If a player says they go then that's the spot in the turn order they go in that combat with the DM going wherever he decides the enemies should go.
Fastest initiative ever
Get a magnetic whiteboard
Get magnets
Write player names on.
Call initiative, move players top to bottom correspondingly.
Write in enemies (bonus speed, pre-roll enemies)
None of this, who got less than 20, less than 15 etc.
add people in mid combat? Simply write into a gap.
I love your channel but have played very little DND. I come from PbtA systems and rules-light games because I prefer an unimpeded narrative, like it seems you do. As an outsider I just find it so funny how many people I see hacking dnd until it’s almost unrecognizable. I’d recommend a lot of people branch out and try new systems and not get stuck in the DND rut
I dont mind initiative the way it is i just change it to a d6s instead only applying dex mods when they clash. A quick table 6 to 1 on the top roll your baddies in the middle of the table so you can put players either above or below them and then just go top to bottom left to right. Unless you have a silly amount of monsters it takes way less time.
I also noticed that my game slows down a lot when I need to set up initiative (and I kind of dread that moment now)
I tried suggesting an idea I got from XP to Level 3 where you roll initiative at the beginning of a session and use it once combat begins but it got shut down because one of my players insists on having the traditional "roll initiative" signal for having combat begin. Even after I said that I felt like that that grinds the pacing of the session to a halt he does not want so accept an alternative and says he doesn't care.
So I guess I'll have to keep the ideas mentioned here in my back pocket and work out the fastest way to set up my initiative tracker to lose as little time as possible. But at least once I got a system for that I can try out the chaos initiative rule, maybe they are going to like that
Sounds like you might need to have a conversation with that player, or, get a new player.
With all do respect to your player, he is playing YOUR campaign that YOU set up & worked to create as the GM. The way I see it, while it’s important to hear out your player’s, if that particular player doesn’t care enough to hear you out, then you have final say as GM (if he wants to go by technicalities, then that’s the rules), otherwise that player might best be suited for a different group.
Apparently we do chaos mode 😅
But, we just do a d6 and a new person gets to roll each round.
Hell yeah. This is the way.
The only problem with doing things clockwise is if you're online, you don't really get that, so I would suggest going in either alphabetical order according to people's names (not the characters, the players) or in order of their dexterity score.
An excellent suggestion Master Cait!
We have a small magnetic whiteboard and dry erase magnetic tape that we have a player use to track initiative. When the DM intrduces opponents into the order, we just slide the magnets down to make room.
Edit: We have used the board system for 5e, Savage Worlds, White Wolf, Stars Without Number and a few other systems.
Oh thats clever too. I used to just write them on a small whiteboard but got tired of that lol.
I have had my players roll initiative every round for years, especially in Mutants and Masterminds
Hell yeah! Chaos Mode!
I really like how into the odd does initiative. It uses group initiative with no rolling. The players always go first unless there is a narrative reason why they shouldn't.
So simple. I love Into the Odd!
OSE also utilizes C H A O S mode. It was game changing for me. Also shouts out to those gorgeous monomakes dice!
Hell yeah! Love how OSE handles things. And yes, Monomakes makes the best of the best!
MCDM's new ttrpg has a solution for initiative which I think solves all of my problems with the system.
No! Don't let the bad guy show up and call for iniative! There isn't even combat yet!
Let him show up, telegraph that he will attack, wait for the players to declare their characters actions (hide, flee, cast a spell, ram the shield in the ground...) and THEN roll.
And only roll if one action would impact an opposed action. Two guys swinging clubs don't need initiative.
5 or 10 minutes feels a lot exagerated. Asking 25 to 20 and writting it down takes less than 1 minute.
The problem with group initiative is the group beginning will destroy its ennemies, players or monsters.
I agree, dex is busted though.
I don't understand how rolling initiative each round would solve initiative rolls taking too long though.
What about a fixed speed modifier ? Like tactical games.
Prof Dungeon Master has an effective system that is simple and quick. He simply has everyone say what they are doing. Then they make all attack rolls and damage rolls at once. In only a few minutes that round is done.
Yeah I love his system in theory but have not had a ton of luck with it at the table. I try to gravitate that way but we always result in going one at a time.
How about: all roll a d20, highest roll plus mods goes first, if highest result is even play proceeds clockwise, if odd play proceeds counterclockwise. This would combat the high mods always sitting to the left of the GM by making it a risk to do so.
This. This is an excellent idea! 💪🏼
Decaying initiative is good as well. Each person subtracts a set number from their score after each turn, if their score reaches zero they reroll initiative and are shuffled into the order accordingly. Shadowrun uses this I believe.
Seems quite dynamic but also a bit complicated to keep track of 🤔
@@HouseDM it is exactly those two things lol. It requires a dedicated initiate tracker in the party. It’s an optional houserule at my table and at the moment we aren’t using it.
7:20, I believe this is an optional rule in 5e, if not officially it has been discussed in the past. 🤔
I use the high-roll method. When I roll initiative for my monster I also roll a d4. Odd on the d4 is clockwise from the wining roll. Even on the d4 counter clockwise from the winning roll. Keeps them from sitting in certain spots to always make the patty go first.
This nearly identical to my method. Only difference is I replace using a d4 with the player high score. If the player's highest initiative score is even, play starts with them and we go clockwise. If odd, play goes counter-clockwise. For monsters, my basic monsters always go last. Some, I do monster(s) in the middle, and the higher powered ones I roll for. If they equal or beat the player score, they go first. It has a balance of brevity and variation that I like.
Personally i prefer to ask people what they wana do in whatever order i wish getting their rolls and then describe everything at once. Everything happens at the same time.
We always roll initiative individually each round for all combatants on the field. Works fine but I personally think initiative should be blind, so players don't know when the monsters are going and can keep the meta gaming down.
Oooooh that’s fascinating 🤔
I prefer to use fix initiative and every player sits in clockwise order. Initiative = Dex+Wis.
I only roll for surprise, if needed.
Ohhh Dex + Wis huh? That’s an interesting idea 🤔
Static initiative has always sucked because it gets metagamed. Now l use a standard deck of cards. When combat starts, draw a card. If its red, one of the pc’s goes (players decide who), if its black, one of the gm’s guys (or group of guys) goes. This means turn order is never predictable. Once a player takes their turn, they keep the card that was drawn to show they’ve had a turn and they flip over a new card. Keeps going like this til everyone has acted. One side finishes before the other, the remaining side goes in any order. Someone has an initiative boost, they act first no matter what card is drawn. The only drawback lve had is players arguing over who gets to act on a red card. Otherwise its fast and random. Try it sometime.
I still hate the idea of taking turns in combat. Too orderly, especially since this is all supposed to be happening at once. At worst, I'd like all the players to declare what they intend to do up front before anyone has rolled anything. Then as each player rolls, they are committed to doing what they declared up top regardless of how things have changed since the beginning of the round. (i.e. two of you say you're going to shoot the same target; turns out the first one killed it, but the second character was still taking a shot at it. In fact the DM might not say whether the first hit was enough to kill it; at the end of all the player's rounds that enemy falls dead with two arrows in him. At best I'd love to have all the players literally act at the same time, maybe even using a probability device other than dice rolling, whose results are immediately discernible without doing any math. That would make combat fast and super-exciting/high adrenaline. Just like it should be.
Interesting ideas, but as a primarily online dm, there are turn order tools that are built into roll20 and other online table tops that make it easy to track turn order. Usually rolling initiative takes a couple minutes, but that gives my players the time to strategize before the first turns of combat, so this isn't really wasted time. Also, having enemy turns often be between individual players turns helps maintain pressure across all players and make down and death situations more stressful.
However, this is with a group of 4 players, when I was running a significantly less organized and experienced table of 6 I think this would have been an amazing rule to speed up combats which were usually boringly long.
Thanks Spapez! And yeah, I’m honestly impressed with the tools for online websites like roll20 and Owlbear rodeo. I know in an online setting, things are much different. I find it so interesting how different people play ttrpg’s, both in person, and online.
I agree that initiative is clunky as is. However, group initiative can seriously mess with the flow of battle, making fights too swinging and removing tactical depth. For this reason, I just have players roll for initiative and place one enemy between each player, in order of their dex mod. There are more enemies than players, I chunk together enemies to make the amount of initiatives aof players and enemies the same.
gonna try it
Keep me posted!
In my B/X games i had all the players sit round the table in DEX order.
And roll group initiative.
i do the same thing in ShadowDark. Works for me.
All my players are wargamers... so ..... maybe other tables would find this a problem ?
I’ve tried this, and it isn’t “solving” initiative. It just has its own unique set of problems just like standard initiative.
By default, due to the action economy, the game is *already* stacked on the players’ side. Letting them all go first usually ends up trouncing your monsters in the first round and handicapping you as the DM. Conversely, it’s not fun as a player for all of the monsters to go first and it feels like you’re in a surprise round. Then to top it off knowing every round is just one or the other option? You lose so much nuance and spontaneity of normal initiative. It’s also narratively fun for random players to get to go first or for the normally high perception character to be caught unaware.
It also sucks knowing if my usual spot is to the right of the DM, I have to go last on every round.
Also, rolling up my stats and making a unique character is part of what makes D&D fun. Players get robbed of that any time my ability scores get ignored.
All valid points. And you’re right, it’s definitely a trade off and not a “solution”. But is it really worth the time figuring out who’s next each time? I’ve found that my players, more often than not, will “check-out” when it’s not their turn in combat. Group initiative keeps them all engaged.
And you’re right about it feeling like players can trounce monsters if they win initiative and I’m totally fine with that. I usually play in games with lower HP so winning or losing initiative can be huge! And not every fight is worth fighting. Pros and cons for each I suppose but already, I’ve learned of some other initiative systems people have shared in the comments that are quite brilliant!
A big problem with "initiative" in RPGs is that in real world combat, initiative is a matter of who chooses to go first, and the quicker more skilled fighter very likely wants to let the inferior opponent go first. In an RPG it just determines turn order with the tiniest sliver of an advantage for going first. D&D (all versions) does not lend itself well to the correct interpretation of initiative, so in as much as it is about turn order anyway, group initiative is much better.
In real life, the people losing initiative never even know they are initiative. Military ambushes are always triggered with the most dangerous weapon and likely to cause mass casualties. Lol, it doesn't work well in games.
@@archersfriend5900 Your are confusing "initiative" with "surprise". Initiative simply means making the first move in such a way that your opponent must react to what you do. An ambush is a surprise attack -- you get to act when your opponent is unaware of you and is not even ready to _react._ If you are facing off with an enemy swordsman and he makes a cut to your head, you have to parry, or dodge, or step back, before you can riposte. He made the first move because you were more patient and waited longer than he did. Now you must react to his move, but if you are quicker and more skilled that is probably to your advantage, as he will likely over-extend, get off balance, or otherwise open himself up to your counter-attack. Of course, if you have surprise, you _also_ take initiative, otherwise, what was the point of surprise.
I do individual initiative with Reasoning/quickness modifiers. I thought it is more realistic and my players like it. Halflings have the advantage and that balances the combat since they have the strength disadvantage.
Wouldn't the main issue here be damage "creep" ? Meaning, if you want an encounter with a lot of individual enemies, PCs will have to potentially soak up a lot of unneeded damage (especially if you have 4+ players that could terminate some of those before their initiative come at any given turn)? I feel like that's not the solution for me, even though it got me thinking about the whole initiative thing. Maybe making it a static number instead of a roll could work ? In this manner, handling a turn order sheet is simpler as you can pre-fill it with your player stats and only update it when needed during some level ups ?
So funny thing: I'm currently building my own RPG which uses group initiative.
Nice! What’s the system inspired by?
My problem with group
Initiative is swarming. I know that I can choose who to attack but I see myself taking it too easy on the players.
to avoid that issue i split my groups of small monsters in 2-3 groups and i have small color rings with numbers to identify them at the table. This usually solves swarming but sometimes initiative just does that where its just players then monsters anyways...
@@RPGSulSide that is one way. I use fantasy grounds when playing at the table and it does roll all of the initiatives for my monsters. If I want to save more time I can make it roll it for the players too.
Roll d6 once at the beginning, group initiative only one person and the DM. No more rolling initiative every round. Waste of time imho. Players decide who goes when on their side it can change every round so long as everyone gets their turn. Sometime depending on the narrative player or creature goes first not need to roll.
Have you tried rolling for your Monsters in advance so you only need to note down the players rolls
I have! I like that system too. I just feel like it doesn’t have the same vibe as rolling with everyone out in the open on the table.
_CHAOS ROUND_ 😎
I have tried rolling initiative every round in the past, some game systems come with that from the start. And I HATED it! It made the game just needless slow. It is just as horrible as the stupid idea of telling in reverse order what one wants to do in a turn and then execute it in the normal order. But overall I don't like any of the methods you talked here, there are better ones out there. Personally I use something I would call the basketball initiative. I usually let the player start with the initiative who started the altercation (and if that was an NPC, then well that NPC is going first). No rolls. After that the initiative is always passed to whom ever the character interacts with, if an ally gets aided, then that ally is next, if an opponent gets attacked, then that opponent goes next. Only if the target has already acted, then the player can decide to pass the initiative to someone of their choice who has not acted yet this turn. To keep track, I usually have everyone a playing card in front of them, that is face up when they have not acted yet, and gets turned face down when they did their action for the turn (but your lights should work well for that too).
Should I ever return to rolling initiative, especially in D&D, then I probably would use CHA as stat, since in my opinion initiative is someone one seizes not something that happens, and well CHA is often described as force of personalty, and that makes me think that would be the right ability to check for initiative if one wants to roll that stuff.
Yeah, I don't know about this one. the game becomes very swingy. If the whole party gets to go first they can nuke the action economy heavily to their side. Or if all the baddies get to go first,players might be in a huge trouble. Honestly I like current initiative system
As a DM i dontlike group initiative because of how it makes the encounter very "swingy".
As in, the encounter can drastically change over the course of the round for one side?
@@HouseDM I think as in, the winner of the encounter will be determined heavily by which side gets to go first. It makes encounters much more difficult to balance when you need to plan for the fact that in some situations, 1-2 players will be dead or at least incapacitated before they ever get a turn.
@@Guy_With_A_Laser I see. I actually don’t really balance my encounters anymore. I’ve sort of shifted to a “combat as war” style where players need to do everything they can to win the combat quickly and efficiently. Finding the quickest way to get the upper hand and win combat quickly helps speed things along.
Of course not all fights are like this, sometimes you just gotta hit shit, but I definitely humor my players if they find a solid way to win the battle creatively.
Frack yes 5e initiative is broken. Screw that. DM rules based on circumstances (who's in front, who's using a missile weapon or long weapon) or each SIDE rolls d6 and just go counterclockwise and GO. It's not gunslinger sim, first move isn't quite so critical.
I hate the math-rocks right at the beginning of combat. Nothing breaks the game flow like stopping to do math.
Agreed.
House DM, great tips! 👊👍 Yes, Dex matters, I like it! Also you could just do initiative by Dexterity. Yes, Wisdom is perception why have a separate thing for it! For group initiative roll a D20, D6, D4, flip a coin, it does not matter. Now, let's get you weaned off of that popular but crummy WizBros TTRPG. 😁
Hahaha working on it Mr Gunn! Just have a couple more 5e vids I’ve had in the queue and then I’m donzo. My release schedule is like 2 months delayed from moving past 5e lol. We’re getting there 💪🏼
For group initiative, I've seen one player (who was using an OSR game) base it on the party's marching order. That seems like a good system to follow.