There's a huge difference between MSC and Disney. One is a family-owned company and Disney is a stock driven corporation with only one goal "The almighty dollar"
@@robertgraham4934 a financial publication would never point that out haha, their goal is to keep the masses interested so the big corporations can suck up their money.
The major difference between MSC and other cruise lines is, MSC is a family-owned business as opposed to a stock driven corporation. Also MSC can also offset costs with their shipping company the largest in the world
lol, shake a good profit in front of the face of a company and stand back. Seriously. People are really good at figuring out a way to get something done when ya can make money.
The reason the Bahamas are a popular cruise destination is because it is right off the coast of Florida, and not part of the United States so non US-Based ships are allowed to transport passangers to and from it without US law and labor regulations applying, specifically the Jones Act.
@@cyberentomology > The Jones Act allows injured sailors to make claims and obtain damages from their employers for the negligence of the ship owner, including many acts of the captain or fellow crew members. It operates simply by applying to sailors similar legislation already in place that allowed for recoveries by railroad workers. Sounds like labor law to me. Things can be more than one thing. It can be maritime law, commercial law, and labor law, all at the same time.
@@vidurbutalia2130the bahamas’ Merchant Shipping Act also contains similar provisions protecting boat employees. Though certainly the labour laws in the bahamas are far more business friendly.
Cleaning up a garbage pile and turning it into something pretty and useful will always get my approval, no matter who does it. Of course, ideally the island should have never been polluted to begin with. But it's better that it's cleaned up now vs being left in its former state.
One major reason cruise lines create private islands has been left out. The self loading cargo.... errr... passengers are a captive audience. All the money spent goes right into the pockets of the cruise lines. While the cruise lines have profit sharing agreements to steer passengers to certain local shops, restaurants, and excursions, they can now keep all the spend.
Exactly, and the people of the Bahamas are left poor. Cleaning up after tourists for low paying jobs. Few think about this. A ton of foreign ownership, the country has been hollowed out
I spent a lot of time near that island as a kid coming in and out for Miami. So I slated in so beautiful. It was shocking to see the industrial machinery just sitting there idle. The most critical part of that Port was its deep water. It could handle large ships from when it was built back in the '60s. Very smart for MSC to redevelop it. Especially since it's entirely isolated and at a beautiful location. Just south of it is a beautiful little key. Probably not man-made since it is made of coral. Mostly. Caught a lot of fish on that key. Spent some time with my wife there when we were dating. Just beautiful.
I love this. They took a waste, and made it a destination. Now, ppl can cruise, and not overwhelm the people IN the Bahamas in their own spaces. And, I love thag they are attempting to attract wildlife and building an island experience and not a theme park.
I was involved with the initial planning of this project. What isn't mentioned in the video is the abundance of sharks that circle the island. Best to swlm in the lagoons.
@@abepetersonthe lagoons as well as the beach near the lighthouse utilize underwater nets to keep larger marine life out. I’m not sure if it’s 100% effective or not… But I have been to Ocean Cay 9 times now and never seen a shark. I have seen large sea turtles and other marine life, however!
I visited the Norwegian island on a cruise with my family. It was definitely the worst stop on the itinerary. The sand was near gravel texture, and there’s nothing to do besides dumpy gift shops, limited beaches without coral, crowded bars or the busy pool. I will never stop at one of these created destinations ever again.
This is a private corporation developing an island in a foreign country (that was technically “built” for mining sand, not tourism). There is no “we”, and there is no irony.
The first thing that struck me is that none of these islands are self supporting. Everything has to be shipped in to give you the artificial impression that it is a paradise. Secondly, the massive size of the ship compared to the little speck of sand on the ocean, wow!
I went on a large family reunion cruise there back in June 2024... the island itself is cool, but they don't mention the INSANE charges for literally EVERYTHING since you are a captive group of visitors... they didn't sell kids swimming goggles. Only $90 snorkel masks. No lie. Sunscreen was almost $20, and any extra food on shore was also crazy. The lighthouse "tour" was also an upcharge.
Wait… so those were people getting _away_ from crowds?! By travelling in a crowd aboard a germ-sharing floating truck, then herding towards the retail outlets to be skinned? I suppose it at least keeps them away from the rest of us…
As much as I didn't care a lot for my on ship experience with MSC, I did enjoy their private island. It's chill, beautiful and simple, just how I like it. Royal Caribbean's private island is more like a theme park, and that's not my thing.
what you smell is probably the treatment plant. Most places treatment plants are in the middle of no where but since its all self contained the plant is not far from you.
There was footage of MSC Cruises staff dumping garbage straight into the ocean. While I'm glad they're taking some steps for the environment, it pales in comparison to the larger impact they have.
@@AstonVantage8 lol. It's an island literally surrounded by water. All they need to do is install a desalination facility and they have unlimited fresh water.
Unlikely, as the soil has to be imported to plant anything. What you are looking at is white sand. What you don't see is the amount of salt in the air and ground which makes thick foliage difficult.
I like cruises but private islands do not appeal to me at all. I want to see real cities, real culture, real nature, I do not just want to lie around on an artificial beach. That said, the way MSC has gone about creating this island is clearly far preferable to what their competitors have done. They have actually improved the island and its environment, so kudos to MSC for that. Looking forward to cruising with them again in the future.
It'd be interesting to learn more about how they power it. Unfortunately I suspect a gas power plant when PV and (I guess) tidal energy would be an alternative.
It’s cheaper to restore a foreign island and use it as a stop over than it is to build cruise ships that comply with the Jones Act. The ships leave Florida and dock in the Bahamas to get around maritime law.
When our kids were little my brothers & I got sucked into taking our kids on the Disney Cruise. Castaway Cay was like a bad day at Point Pleasant Beach in NJ 😂
@ but how Disney cruise overall? How was the entertainment on the ship? How was the food? How many night was your Disney cruise? How long ago did you go?
@ It was a while ago, 2005. I’d heard so much about cruises my whole life. My aunts family owned a big travel agency in NY so they were always going on them. Grandparents too. Not my parents though. Anywho, 5 days in Nov. Expected to be wowed. All the food looked great at the first luncheon buffet. Tasted the same. Dinners were a bit much with the kids. Stopped after one night. Room service was better. Everything is extra & not cheap. The rooms were great & the shows too. Pool was crowded. Breakfast was best but I never found good lunch or late night buffets. When I talked to my world traveler uncle he laughed. Cruises aren’t for everyone. 👋
@ It was a while ago 2005. I just expected way more. Had heard about how good cruises were from family that owned a big travel agency for years. Just underwhelmed. The food was Mmhh & wasn’t as available as I thought it would be. Kids wanted more breakfast stuff. Shows were good & my niece liked going to do kids club activities. But the pool was always crowded. Rooms were nice. When I saw my uncle he laughed & said cruises aren’t for everyone 👋
Companies like this don't just spend half a billion dollars to make the earth a better place, but this seems to be one of the times when just about everybody wins! Nice.
I’ve been to Great Stirrup, exceptional disappointment, imagine the most clinical tourist trap x 10. That experience alone has turned me away from ever going on a Caribbean cruise again
I have sailed MSC multiple times, the most recent was MSC Eurebia an LNG powered ship up into the Norwegian fjords. I'm looking forward to my March trip on MSC World Europa also another LNG powered ship with the most advanced technologies for environmental protection. Miami will soon be welcoming MSC World America which will set a new standard for Caribbean cruising.
lol, some day there will be a vid on Fascinating Horror about the reconstituted island that caught on fire, exploded and sunk into the sea due to cost cutting and a poor job of removing the volatile radioactive/explosive chemicals stored on the island.
MSC Cruises' private island, Ocean Cay MSC Marine Reserve, was previously a sand-mining facility in the Bahamas: History: In the 1960s, Dillingham Construction of Hawaii built Ocean Cay as an artificial island to mine white aragonite sand for industrial use. If you believe sand is toxic you might want to invest in a hot air balloon
Such a love hate relationship with the cruise lines. There convenient to check out places but they rob steal and take advantage of everyone they can in the process. I hate greedy companies!
They still pay fees to the Bahamian government! Those islands are not free. There is also a massive development and maintenance cost. In addition, the passengers pay the port fees. Nothing comes free.
The Bahamas ARE NOT in the Caribbean Sea; they are located north of the Caribbean. Specifically, the Bahamas are an archipelago in the Atlantic Ocean, situated to the northeast of Cuba, north of Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominican Republic), and southeast of Florida. While they are often associated with the Caribbean region due to cultural and geographical proximity, they are geographically outside the Caribbean Sea.
But what are the upkeep costs from erosion of the sand/beach and such? And do they expect that island to be around in 10 or 20 years? While nice, this looks like a good way to burn money.
Why Disney is plowing cash into a cruise line expansion: on.wsj.com/403FMJR
There's a huge difference between MSC and Disney. One is a family-owned company and Disney is a stock driven corporation with only one goal "The almighty dollar"
@@robertgraham4934 a financial publication would never point that out haha, their goal is to keep the masses interested so the big corporations can suck up their money.
It goes to show that companies can restore environments if it means they can get a profit
Should be incentives to allow more businesses to do the same. Eventually we would rebuild a lot of ecosystems for native animals
The major difference between MSC and other cruise lines is, MSC is a family-owned business as opposed to a stock driven corporation. Also MSC can also offset costs with their shipping company the largest in the world
lol, shake a good profit in front of the face of a company and stand back. Seriously. People are really good at figuring out a way to get something done when ya can make money.
There isnt much benefit to the enviroment to make this island
Yes, by selling scuba diving excursions of course.
The reason the Bahamas are a popular cruise destination is because it is right off the coast of Florida, and not part of the United States so non US-Based ships are allowed to transport passangers to and from it without US law and labor regulations applying, specifically the Jones Act.
The Jones Act has got the be the funkiest piece of US law that impacts so much but nobody really knows about or cares.
Jones Act is not labor law…
@@cyberentomology
> The Jones Act allows injured sailors to make claims and obtain damages from their employers for the negligence of the ship owner, including many acts of the captain or fellow crew members. It operates simply by applying to sailors similar legislation already in place that allowed for recoveries by railroad workers.
Sounds like labor law to me. Things can be more than one thing. It can be maritime law, commercial law, and labor law, all at the same time.
@@vidurbutalia2130the bahamas’ Merchant Shipping Act also contains similar provisions protecting boat employees. Though certainly the labour laws in the bahamas are far more business friendly.
The Jones Act applies to cargo shipping. The Passenger Vessel Services Act is what limits cruise ships from going to two US ports in a row
Cleaning up a garbage pile and turning it into something pretty and useful will always get my approval, no matter who does it. Of course, ideally the island should have never been polluted to begin with. But it's better that it's cleaned up now vs being left in its former state.
Ocean cay was not an existing island, it was man-made; created for dredging sand, it was later transformed by msc into a beautiful island.
One major reason cruise lines create private islands has been left out. The self loading cargo.... errr... passengers are a captive audience. All the money spent goes right into the pockets of the cruise lines. While the cruise lines have profit sharing agreements to steer passengers to certain local shops, restaurants, and excursions, they can now keep all the spend.
Exactly, and the people of the Bahamas are left poor. Cleaning up after tourists for low paying jobs. Few think about this. A ton of foreign ownership, the country has been hollowed out
They turned an industrial wasteland into a cultural wasteland.
As opposed to being left overwhelmed and solely reliant on tourism, which can disappear in a blink?
@@z97482 that's kind of on the government, no? just tax the companies and reinvest the money into productive investments in your country.
Maybe that's why it was an industrial waste land first. Orden ab Chao style....
I spent a lot of time near that island as a kid coming in and out for Miami. So I slated in so beautiful. It was shocking to see the industrial machinery just sitting there idle. The most critical part of that Port was its deep water. It could handle large ships from when it was built back in the '60s. Very smart for MSC to redevelop it. Especially since it's entirely isolated and at a beautiful location. Just south of it is a beautiful little key. Probably not man-made since it is made of coral. Mostly. Caught a lot of fish on that key. Spent some time with my wife there when we were dating. Just beautiful.
I love this. They took a waste, and made it a destination. Now, ppl can cruise, and not overwhelm the people IN the Bahamas in their own spaces. And, I love thag they are attempting to attract wildlife and building an island experience and not a theme park.
I can’t tell you how valuable the aspect of having fewer people around is when you are on vacation.
I was involved with the initial planning of this project. What isn't mentioned in the video is the abundance of sharks that circle the island. Best to swlm in the lagoons.
But how do they keep them out of the lagoons?
@@abepetersonthe lagoons as well as the beach near the lighthouse utilize underwater nets to keep larger marine life out. I’m not sure if it’s 100% effective or not… But I have been to Ocean Cay 9 times now and never seen a shark. I have seen large sea turtles and other marine life, however!
Giving a profit incentive for companies to actually be environmental conscious. I love this
Well, cruise ships are anything but environmental conscious.
Crazy that some see this and think wow so Environmentaly conscious
I visited the Norwegian island on a cruise with my family. It was definitely the worst stop on the itinerary. The sand was near gravel texture, and there’s nothing to do besides dumpy gift shops, limited beaches without coral, crowded bars or the busy pool. I will never stop at one of these created destinations ever again.
China makes artificial islands for military bases,
We make artificial islands for tourist stops
No need, US has dozens of military bases and sites across the world
@@aarongill4472 just enjoy the irony
Dubai makes artificial islands for... nobody.
Except the island initially wasn't created to be a tourist location 🥴
This is a private corporation developing an island in a foreign country (that was technically “built” for mining sand, not tourism). There is no “we”, and there is no irony.
They had me at “industrial wasteland”
Ocean Cay is my favorite port of call in the Caribbean! It is fantastic!
The first thing that struck me is that none of these islands are self supporting. Everything has to be shipped in to give you the artificial impression that it is a paradise.
Secondly, the massive size of the ship compared to the little speck of sand on the ocean, wow!
Yeah, and tourists consume way more resources and waste more than average people.
Yup, I was thinking about that as well.Add to that, that of the 250 residents, how many are married people? Are there any children growing up there?
@@shuki1these companies prey off developing nations….
Just workers who rotate on leave no kids @@shuki1
Most countries are not self supporting and especially island countries so your point is kind of useless
I was on the MSC Davina in 2019 the first ship to visit the island. It was stunning!
I went on a large family reunion cruise there back in June 2024... the island itself is cool, but they don't mention the INSANE charges for literally EVERYTHING since you are a captive group of visitors... they didn't sell kids swimming goggles. Only $90 snorkel masks. No lie. Sunscreen was almost $20, and any extra food on shore was also crazy.
The lighthouse "tour" was also an upcharge.
Been there a few times and it's really nice. The island is a marine preserve that will have laboratories to study ocean conservation.
Is this an ad? And is there any requirement to tell us?
It really does seem that way
IT's not just the lease money that is good for the region... it's the local jobs. The lease price is nothing compared to that.
Even if the sea drowns it in a few years, I'm glad they cleaned it up-- I guess.
Lol, maybe I should invest in Antarctica
They just move trash into other location. That's all...
Why would it?
Amazing project, definitely a place to visit in the future ❤❤
Wait… so those were people getting _away_ from crowds?! By travelling in a crowd aboard a germ-sharing floating truck, then herding towards the retail outlets to be skinned? I suppose it at least keeps them away from the rest of us…
Was here in 2021. Its beautiful..
I love ocean cay and how msc made a beautiful paradise from an industrial wasteland! Whenever I go there, I wish I could just stay on the island ❤
As much as I didn't care a lot for my on ship experience with MSC, I did enjoy their private island. It's chill, beautiful and simple, just how I like it. Royal Caribbean's private island is more like a theme park, and that's not my thing.
It still smells like sewage a tiny bit in certain parts though lol but it’s beautiful and chill.
what you smell is probably the treatment plant. Most places treatment plants are in the middle of no where but since its all self contained the plant is not far from you.
Good job
Incredible feats of engineering really. Really impressive.
Very Interesting.
This is a metaphor for 21st century capitalism.
MSC is a family-run business, shouldn't a business make a profit?
What other way is there to make money?
So it's a good thing.
please enlighten us on how?
There was footage of MSC Cruises staff dumping garbage straight into the ocean. While I'm glad they're taking some steps for the environment, it pales in comparison to the larger impact they have.
link?
Looking very fine!😊
Nice!
There needs to be more foliage.... much more foliage!
Agree 100%.
Probably not enough water to support large area of vegetation
@@AstonVantage8 lol. It's an island literally surrounded by water. All they need to do is install a desalination facility and they have unlimited fresh water.
Gone to the island twice in the past year, they have a lot of trees planted. They just aren’t matured yet.
Unlikely, as the soil has to be imported to plant anything. What you are looking at is white sand. What you don't see is the amount of salt in the air and ground which makes thick foliage difficult.
0:51 - You're missing Lighthouse Point by Disney on the map :)
That's amazing!
Interesting watch
I like cruises but private islands do not appeal to me at all. I want to see real cities, real culture, real nature, I do not just want to lie around on an artificial beach. That said, the way MSC has gone about creating this island is clearly far preferable to what their competitors have done. They have actually improved the island and its environment, so kudos to MSC for that. Looking forward to cruising with them again in the future.
It'd be interesting to learn more about how they power it. Unfortunately I suspect a gas power plant when PV and (I guess) tidal energy would be an alternative.
What a weird advert pretending to be journalism.
We just came back from a MSC cruise and this island was the best part of it!!
Sounds like a win win
It’s cheaper to restore a foreign island and use it as a stop over than it is to build cruise ships that comply with the Jones Act. The ships leave Florida and dock in the Bahamas to get around maritime law.
The ships leave Florida and go to the Bahamas (or other foreign ports) because it IS THE LAW.
@ It’s the law because the cruise ships don’t comply with the Jones Act.
So apparently, Cay is pronounced Key. Hmm, didn't know that.
Different spelling of key as in Florida Keys I think
yes whenever you see Cay in the Bahamas its pronounced Key. Not sure who else does this but here, don't say Kay!
When our kids were little my brothers & I got sucked into taking our kids on the Disney Cruise. Castaway Cay was like a bad day at Point Pleasant Beach in NJ 😂
What do you mean? Castaway cay sucks?
@ Yes, very crowded & filled with touristy Nick-knacks
@ but how Disney cruise overall? How was the entertainment on the ship? How was the food? How many night was your Disney cruise? How long ago did you go?
@ It was a while ago, 2005. I’d heard so much about cruises my whole life. My aunts family owned a big travel agency in NY so they were always going on them. Grandparents too. Not my parents though. Anywho, 5 days in Nov. Expected to be wowed. All the food looked great at the first luncheon buffet. Tasted the same. Dinners were a bit much with the kids. Stopped after one night. Room service was better. Everything is extra & not cheap. The rooms were great & the shows too. Pool was crowded. Breakfast was best but I never found good lunch or late night buffets. When I talked to my world traveler uncle he laughed. Cruises aren’t for everyone. 👋
@ It was a while ago 2005. I just expected way more. Had heard about how good cruises were from family that owned a big travel agency for years. Just underwhelmed. The food was Mmhh & wasn’t as available as I thought it would be. Kids wanted more breakfast stuff. Shows were good & my niece liked going to do kids club activities. But the pool was always crowded. Rooms were nice. When I saw my uncle he laughed & said cruises aren’t for everyone 👋
Impressive
Companies like this don't just spend half a billion dollars to make the earth a better place, but this seems to be one of the times when just about everybody wins! Nice.
is the water clean, is there anything radioactive?
I’ve been to Great Stirrup, exceptional disappointment, imagine the most clinical tourist trap x 10. That experience alone has turned me away from ever going on a Caribbean cruise again
Impressive transformation, MSC Cruises! 🏝️💪
how? waste was exported to other continents or mariana trench and paraside was placed on land
I visited this island in November 24 and loved it!
So what happens when the sea level rises a couple inches??😊
The beach near the ship is PERFECT
What an awesome video. I love videos concerning construction and what humans can develop! Amazing
We going on a cruise 2025 from UK 🇬🇧
Reminder: Europes Cruise Ships alone emit as many toxic sulfur as 1 billion cars pa
It turns out that sulphur was keeping us cool, and now we have termination shock due to the massive reduction in aerosols due to cleaner bunker oil.
@@surur_ source?
@ you talking about Global Dimming?
this is crazy
What is the point in taking a cruise if you're going to visit an artificial resort? Just book a holiday in a resort and forget about the ship, right?
You need a ship to get to the resort.
And who wants to be entire holiday on same location?
You do understand the ship just stops there for a day or 2 and goes to other countries right lol
I prefer to cruise than stay in the same location for a week or two. Also cruising is a much better option financially.
The cruise ships build those islands to save money on port fees.
@loumcast you pay the same port fees and taxes either by going to a private island in the Bahamas or going to Freeport or Nassau
Removing the scrap metal would have gained profit in the entire build, even if the removal and shipping back to the USA cost 1m.
Im going back on the msc seashore January 26th i can't wait 🎉
Yes. You can.
i like wsj dont hide that they are a corporate shill anymore
I have sailed MSC multiple times, the most recent was MSC Eurebia an LNG powered ship up into the Norwegian fjords. I'm looking forward to my March trip on MSC World Europa also another LNG powered ship with the most advanced technologies for environmental protection. Miami will soon be welcoming MSC World America which will set a new standard for Caribbean cruising.
I would like to see the toxicology report before stepping on that island 🏝️
lol, some day there will be a vid on Fascinating Horror about the reconstituted island that caught on fire, exploded and sunk into the sea due to cost cutting and a poor job of removing the volatile radioactive/explosive chemicals stored on the island.
Wait seated my unkown friend.
@@TDurden527 Well-done‼️🤣👍🏻
MSC Cruises' private island, Ocean Cay MSC Marine Reserve, was previously a sand-mining facility in the Bahamas:
History: In the 1960s, Dillingham Construction of Hawaii built Ocean Cay as an artificial island to mine white aragonite sand for industrial use. If you believe sand is toxic you might want to invest in a hot air balloon
It’s just a waste dump for dredging sand.
- Local
what is the carbon blueprint to sustain 5,ooo daily
The worst thing about cruises all the cruises
As long as it keeps the cruise passenger scourge away from real places I suppose it's a good thing.
Key or Cay?
They pronounce it as "Key" the english way.
Who did that land belong to though?
I would love to work on the island
I doubt it. As someone who worked on a cruise ship I can tell you people are terrible and they work you to death.
Wow, at first I thought it was a new Chinese island in the South China Sea!
Can i work on that island❤❤❤
Did they put the Island high enough to counter rising sea levels that are driven by the cruise industry and their co2 emissions in the first place?
How much do you guys got paid for this?
Such a love hate relationship with the cruise lines. There convenient to check out places but they rob steal and take advantage of everyone they can in the process. I hate greedy companies!
Curacao might play vs saudi arabia in next yeats concacaf gold cup.
What about the garbage?
Tim duncan was a swimmer.
So weird that they're building on islands that are supposedly going to be underwater in the next 50 years!
No worries about sea level rises then!!😂
Cruise ships build those islands to save money on port fees.
They still pay fees to the Bahamian government! Those islands are not free. There is also a massive development and maintenance cost. In addition, the passengers pay the port fees. Nothing comes free.
MSC THE BEST
yeah man, too bad about his ski accident.
@@simon199418 I see what you did there.
MSC Cruises has a very bright future, I believe they may become bigger than Carnival and Royal.
Not until they fix their customer service. It's sorely lacking.
The Bahamas ARE NOT in the Caribbean Sea; they are located north of the Caribbean. Specifically, the Bahamas are an archipelago in the Atlantic Ocean, situated to the northeast of Cuba, north of Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominican Republic), and southeast of Florida. While they are often associated with the Caribbean region due to cultural and geographical proximity, they are geographically outside the Caribbean Sea.
Good job 👏
The Bahamas are a part of the Caribbean. Stop embarrassing yourself.
So you’re taking a cruise ship to go to basically what is a stationary cruise ship ?😂😂😂
Well now if I were a pirate….. just sayn 🤔
Ah, the cruise ship island where Americans who hate 15 minute cities spend thousands of dollars cosplaying it on hoilday.
But what are the upkeep costs from erosion of the sand/beach and such? And do they expect that island to be around in 10 or 20 years? While nice, this looks like a good way to burn money.
anything's possible if a profit can be found
How much did MSC pay you, WSJ?
Why make another island instead of enlarging this one? You can add an airstrip or even a small airport and more stuff for visitors.
Treasure island 🏝️ 🎉😂
6:22 Nooo you got paid to be deserted on a tropical island basically by yourself for 18 months, how did you cope? Truly such a strong individual
If these guys can build housing in the middle of the ocean for 5000 people, then how can’t the US build housing ?
The stuff you can do when you have money...
Shameless promo for MSC. C'mon WSJ, you can do better!
Hello from Bucharest, Romania - a huge underrated city in Europe:)
MSC 10× better than RC, will never use another cruise line again
Having cheap Filipino and Nicaraguan labor and no unions allows this occur in 4 years instead of 10.