Is Flat Rate Fair? -ETCG1
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- Опубліковано 10 лют 2025
- Visit me at: www.ericthecarg...
EricTheCarGuy channel: / ericthecarguy
This has been something of an ongoing discussion on ETCG1, the flat rate system. This is the system which is wildly used in the repair industry to pay technicians. Some like it but many don't. Recently I read an article about some technicians in California that had brought a lawsuit against their employer because of the flat rate system. This video talks a bit about that as well as the implications of the case. I look forward to your comments. Here are some links mentioned in the video along with a link to the article that inspired the video.
Article that inspired this video: www.searchautop...
The Flat Rate System: • The Flat Rate System
The Flat Rate System Revisited: • The Flat Rate System R...
The Labor Shift: • The Labor Shift
Discussion about this video: www.ericthecar...
Stay Dirty
ETCG1
the flat rate system is why i left the dealership an i work for a municipality, i can take my time, no one breaths down my back, and i get paid for 40 hours a week, sometimes i might even pull a double
My problem with flat rate is primarily that it does not lend itself to quality work. It is most tailored toward the tech who is fast and knows how to cut corners intelligently. As a flat rate tech you are constantly battling the clock, a mindset which makes the quality of the repair take a backseat. I tried it out and it was not for me. Some techs are wired this way, and good for them. I am not. I work best when I take my time, can focus on the system and the problem, understand it thoroughly, and put quality above all else.
For that reason I think flat rate also took the passion out of wrenching for me.
I am an independent shop owner and I have always paid my mechanics hourly. I feel that with the flat rate system, quality of the work suffers. On the other hand, I use the flat rate to bill my customers... If a job should take two hours (all-data) and it ends up taking six, I only bill the customer for two. I will have to eat the loss and move on... That's how I keep my customers coming back. I don't have the luxury of having a line of cars coming in my shop like the big dealers. Stay Dirty!
In my mind the only reason for flat rate is to scew the mechanic and make the dealership more money... the dealer is better off, the customer is better off, warranty is better off. the guy who isn't better off is the one who has to bust his butt just to meet the deadline, every time. You may say it guards against bad/lazy mechanics- I say let's get back to paying people what they're worth and to hell with minimum wage.
DieselFume1 I agree, and if the mechanic is not productive get rid of him.
Agreed
I made a good living on flat rate until they extended the service interval. There used to be a balance of warranty work and service and customer repair work and it all seem to come out in the wash at the end of the week. This is why I went to fleet work.
Eric you explained the ups and downs of the flat rate system perfectly.
Warranty warranty warranty.
The gm and service managers live in a nice house with a fountain in front.
Tech have to rent a house with 2 other people.
I've been wanting to go to UTI to become a nissan Mech, and it's been my dream to work in a dealership and work my way to getting my GTR, after hearing everyone's 2 cents on the flare rate system I think it's time to start looking at a different path, I'm 19 and work construction making 18 an hr with a solid 40hrs a week and time to play with my 370 on the weekend, I'm without a doubt a hard worker but if there's no cars to work on then my work ethics can't make cars magically appear:( heartbreaking but I guess that's just the beauty of America thank you Eric and everyone for the info! Stay Dirty!
Went to wyotech. Both great schools and will give you great amount of info, and you need it if you want to get into this field. But I would price out what your going to pay for school and tools and weigh it against what you'll make in the first 5 to 7 years and see if its worth it. And go to dealerships and talk to tech and see what they have to say, even see if you can shadow one for a day.
Become a software engineer. You will get a paycheck
This is a great topic. Note that California state wage laws are significantly more favorable to workers and provide claims that similar workers in most states will not have. Pep Boys was sued both in California and Tennessee. They lost in TN and the decision was affirmed on appeal - PB must pay its employees overtime. In California there is a distinction between Auto Repair Shop employees and Dealership employees. PB employees were deemed ARS employees.
I would just pay them hourly. There are a lot of other methods to motivate or encourage employee productivity. Flat rate also encourages halfassing the job (in terms of quality not speed).
If they want to pay you like a subcontractor then you mechanics need to act like subcontractors. Bid every job, submit change orders when things deviate at all from the book, and if they don't have the job ready to go when they said they would, you go work on another job at another location until they get their **** together. But they want you to be piece workers and in the construction industry there is nothing lower. That's for entry level or desperados. It's slavery and should be illegal.
miserere nobis I worked at a hot rod/ “restoration” shop that had the piecework system. We made crumbs and were “encouraged to stay late” to “stack hours” . It took a while to find parts because the shop wasn’t organized or encouraged documentation of parts. The best part is when work was done in the past at the shop , components were not tested/rebuilt when they were out , and we had to eat the cost of diagnosis and repair . Flat rate / piece work with old cars is bs.
Flat rate is awesome......... if your a super experienced mechanic and know what your doing. But it is very rigged against newcomers, and it seems to encourage half assed jobs which gives the automotive industry a negative outlook. The reason I think the average age in the auto industry is going up, is because of flat rate. A lot of young techs quit because they're not making money, and feel their hard work would appreciated somewhere else. I think unless the flat rate system stops, the automotive career path will keep declining in popularity, and the poor quality jobs performed by techs will continue to destroy the outlook techs have on society.
true and well said
Flat rate lends itself to some technicians hacking or selling false recommendations as well, especially if you aren't the fastest person on the planet, the system needs to GO IMHO
My guys get tips quite often... and they really appreciate it! But my customers are loyal regulars and have been coming to me for years.
iv been a mechanic my whole life and i hate flat rate sometimes. the sometimes is when you get a job working for a mainstream corporation where they want you to do a 100 point inspection on every vehicle pull the wheels off measure pads and rotors measure tire tred depth and go around basicly filling out paperwork for 30 minutes, and you arent getting paid a dime for any of it. say someone comes in and all they want is an oil change. an oil change pays 0.3 hours to do say your flat rate wage is 18 bucks an hour. after filling out the 30 minuts of corprate mandadet paperwork and all the measuring and wrighting for 30 minuts plus the 15 minut oil change. congrats you just made 4.50 cents for your 45 minutes. but it can be good if you work for say a smaller mom and pop shop where you constantly get bigger jobs in and there isnt a stack of paper hoops to jump through. then you can make some good money.
What bothered me about flat rate was the inconsistency. One day I would sit around and make 2 hours. The next day I would break my ass and do 20 hours. A lot of times it was feast or famine. Drove me nuts. This is great forum for customers to understand exactly how this works. I would run into customers that would say "it only took you 45 minutes - why are you charging me 1.2? Would be nice if all customers had some idea of flat rate system in the industry as they have their cars repaired
I worked at an agriculture dealership that used the flat rate system. I still got paid per hour so I'm guaranteed to make a solid pay check as long as I show up to work. When you did a job, you had the labour time for the certain task. So if you went over the time, you got a bad efficiency and if you got under the time, you got a good efficiency. They calculate how much time you worked to how much time they charged out to give you an efficiency rating and gave you a bonus if you had a good rating. I had no formal training there but was hired and supposed to get signed up as an apprentice. After my first 3 months, so I thought I'd get signed up and go to school for training. 7 months after that, I got sick of waiting for them to do something so told them that if they don't send me to school in 2 weeks, I'm going to quit. So i waited a week, I had a meeting with my bosses and they considered it but they said my performance was not what they were expecting from me and they let me go. They decided to let me go because i wasn't as good as the other people who have been working there for many years instead of sending me to school for training. That pissed me off so much I almost quit being a mechanic. I hate the flat rate system. It supports the guys with loads of experience and holds back the ones trying to learn.
I'm glad i found a shop that doesn't use the flat rate, they also treat their employees better here. I don't miss that other shop at all.
Sorry for the long post.
Your performance was fine! They just didn't wanna send u to school bro and when u called the on their bs they realized they had to get rid of you because you held them accountable. If your performance was no good they woulda let you go already and how much can they expect from someone who is untrained?? I am sure you had trouble keeping up with the times because every job you did was for the first time. Sorry the world sucks bro keep your head up.
I took my truck to a franchise garage to have them replace rusted fuel lines. I supplied the new lines and the compression fittings. I know the manager and the one mechanic is my neighbor so I was confident my neighbor was going to do the repair and do a fast and efficient job. The manager stuck their less educated mechanic on it and charged me a ridicules amount of money to do the repair because the mechanic took a long time to figure it out. So hourly isn’t always fare in this situation.
I've worked in both systems for a couple of years at 2 different Toyota dealers. Sometimes you make out like a bandit but warranty work kills sometimes it's I'd rather do nothing than do this. I have to to replace dashboards for 1.8hrs what dash you know can come out and go back in that time. But I've been paid 2.5hrs to turn rotors for a brake job. My thing is company's not want to pay people like they are flat rate. I was certified an I was offered 14 dollars. I almost laughed the guy off the phone when he said that. Techs have to eat too. In my area you have make at least 17 to make it worth it every week. Fast food workers are pulling 15 hr and they don't have to buy tools give me a break.
I've only been in this for a few years, in that time I've had 2 flat rate jobs and both times been completely screwed over. Never Again!
16 years so far getting screwed.
im been a tech for 12 years, i choose to be an hourly oil change tech, because i suck at flat rate. flat rate isn't good for those weeks when its dead, 24 or 5 cars a day among 5 techs, and its all oil changes. I think salary plus omission is best. the more ase the more commission you get
I have been in both ways over the years . The last was NCR where I worked for 10 years .
When I started and were on call you would get 2 hours overtime for any call . Then ATT bought NCR and it got better then bang the split it and it became NCR again but now unless you had to drive to a call you would get would get 0 . They did it for 3 years and today there are still lawsuits against NCR
I work at an independent shop that does flat rate. As Eric alluded to, its feast or famine. When we have enough work to go around, I feel it is a fair system, from the owner who has to keep the lights on, to the customer who isn't getting gouged, and to the technician toiling away. The trouble comes when things get rocky and you are begging for rust bucket 4x4 clutch jobs or some such. In good times, it's good, in bad times it sucks. Best tech in the world wouldn't earn a living not working.
I think you are right Eric about your analogy to sub-contractors. I would think employees will just hire employees as independent contractors and make the problem "go away." There is the warranty issue with lower book time too. Warranty rates are typically much lower than standard book time repairs. Do all manufacturers do this or just some of them? Many GM shops will not accept warranty work.
I don't know where the rest of you guys are at. But here in Michigan. We have three car repair seasons. we have first, when everybody gets out of school. Because now they have time to wait for their cars to get fixed. We have deer hit season. from the middle of November till the middle of December 1 in 85 cars on the road in Michigan will be involved in a deer Collision. and we have the first snowfall. which could happen anytime from mid-september till the beginning of January. And during the first snowfall everybody smashes their car at the same time. this first snowfall mess usually takes about 2 months to clean up in the accident industry. sometimes first snowfall and deer season overlap. those who have been in a deer collision and can still drive their car, wait till spring or summer to get their car fixed. this means, in Michigan we have approximately 6 months of starvation in the flat rate system. And then to top it off. no other state in the United States, uses as much salt or deicer on their roads, as Michigan. the before de-icer oh, your car would rot out within 5 or 6 years. since they've started using de-icer on the roads, 3 years. your car is a total piece of crap after 3 years. and I've been watching this go down for 25 years. no rust typically is in a problem with run ability until, a frame rail gets bent. Or radiator support is wasted. the lack of Integrity in the metal, because of the rust, causes these cars to be totaled out much quicker than if they were in the same type of accident in Arizona. as an auto body heavy frame technician on flat rate, I have approximately three months to make enough money to carry me through 6 months of starvation. As a direct repair program shop, the insurance companies total out cars faster than we can repair them. This leaves a significant lack of work in our Market. And just because a car is new, doesn't mean it doesn't need repairs. warranty x 1/2 in Auto Body. we do have a severe Duty category in our labor guides, because of the rust on our cars. but severely Duty, must be documented thoroughly with pictures to prove the car is rotted out and dying of cancer. this process can take upwards of one month to get paid on. and if you call insurance companies such as your good neighbor or the good hands people, they can be buried in appraisals from the first snowfall, for up to but not excluding three to four weeks. what I'm trying to say is, the flat rate system is great to get you through the winter. You blow most of your money on Christmas. the rest of the money gets to bills and other financial obligations. But Michigan, you might as well take the summer off. we used to have legitimate sales people in this industry that could keep us working year round. now all we have is insurance company Yes Men that do the bare minimum. And get maximum reward. And by maximum reward I mean, all the people that work around the flat rate technician . are usually on salary. and that salary is usually 2 to 3 times more then the flat rate technicians annual income. something to truly consider here is, none of those shirts and ties have to own a tool box. none of those suits have to actually turn a wrench. they are guaranteed a wage that they can take to the bank and Finance on. a flat rate technician in this state understands one thing in life to be true, there are no guarantees in this life. And when you cannot guarantee an income. You cannot take it to the bank. you can't buy new cars. You can't buy a new house. You can't even afford an apartment. But the saddest part of being a flat rate technician in this country is, mechanics built this country period starting in the assembly line of Ford Motor Company. The company that built America literally from the ground up. Henry Ford use the $5 an hour wage to create the middle class. those same mechanics built roads and gas stations and stores and tourist attractions. and helped this Society go further than it had ever gone by foot. 100 years later, we are considered scum of the Earth. as far as I'm concerned, you can take the flat rate system, middle management, and the insurance companies. ( where do you think that 15% or more savings comes from? a mechanic's take-home pay) and the whole Ponzi scheme and stick it Square where the sun doesn't shine. after 25 years in this business the day of my retirement was the best day of my life. I just wish I would have retired from the automotive industry in California or Arizona. because, then I'd have some money to live off from for the next 25 years. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to spend another 25 years in the workforce just to retire. but not in the automotive industry. I literally wasted 25 years of my time fucking around with the bulshit from the dealerships in the insurance companies. as well as dealing with some of the most ignorant people on the planet. and for that I have no problem throwing both middle fingers in the air and tip in the fuck out the door. but at least my snap on bill is paid. Only took 20 years to do that. working on cars has been the worst career choice I could have ever made. what was supposed to be a career that took me wherever I wanted to go . turned into a job that kept me just over broke.
I work as a general service tech at firestone and i get paid hourly but i consistently book 40-45 hours on oil changes and tires the trick is creating work inspect vehichles well and you will get work.
Gotta remember warranty does not pay for diagnostic time , I've been burned Plenty of times that way
When I was a tractor tech (semi truck) back in 06-07 I was paid hourly, now there was a shop just down the road that paid flat rate and another shop that paid flat rate but also paid $9 an hour straight time. So at minimum you would make $9 an hour but if you had work and got stuff done before the allotted time you could make really good money. In all I wish I was paid the semi flat rate instead of hourly or just flat rate. Yeah $9 isn't much but if you always have work then you was golden. My cousin worked for the particular shop that paid hourly and flat rate at the same time and would have a grand or more a week.
As a automotive technician, I am lucky that the shop I work for does not use flat rate. They use team pay and its not bad cause there is just me and the "manager". I am working to get out of automotive repair mainly because I don't want to have to worry about the, personal, unfair flat rate system.
Where I work, Sears Auto Center, is not too bad. Its not flat rate or hourly. They call it commission, but its not that really either. As an advanced level tech, I make a flat hourly rate of $7.50, and for some jobs I get a set amount of money. An oil change pays $3.45. A set of 4 tires pays $8. An alignment pays $16.50. For "mechanical work", we get 24% of the shops labor rate. Plus our base pay. So we can make a decent amount of money. And when its dead we still get at least min wage.
I worked for pepboys for 5 years and it seems that can make more. I tired of sitting down waiting for a car or putting up tires because Noone acts like they don't know how and I tell them I don't get paid by the tire I put up but by the car I work on so I going to the dealership, Toyota specifically to see a difference.
Best of luck to you
A couple days later I had a fuel leak and ended up re-doing half the work my self in the driveway. I hated to say anything because my neighbor works there but, for $300 I expected a much better job. I even had to re-rout them. It was a mess and I could have done a better job. Only had them do it becuse laying on the ground playing with fuel lines isn't fun. So charging hourly isn't fare unless they job is being done correctly and the tech that is doing the job is the best person for the job.
I wouldn’t have traded flat rate commission for a salary or hourly wage when I was working for someone else. I absolutely banked on flat rate pay. Hourly rate made for a lazy mechanic and salary pay keeps you beholden to the shop at all times and you end up getting screwed. I won’t pay any of my technicians any other way but flat rate and they rock. I love paying them the most money they can make. We have close to zero comebacks. It happens from time to time but never from negligence.
Insurance companies are as guilty as dealers when it comes to flat rate . You have to be an accountant to make sure that you get paid for everything that you do on a job . I worked for a Ford dealer years ago and warranty work was horrendously underpaid for the reasons that you mentioned .
Those techs in California are heroes as far as I'm concerned. I work on German cars and in Germany their techs are pretty much salary or hourly but they have a commission system that uses the labor manual I think this is the ideal system. One thing that's bad about this is the warranty times tend to be too low, probably because the time would still make a good commission on top of a salary but here in the US it doesn't work out too well usually. At least I make minimum wage now thanks to those guys in Cali.
I rebuild transmissions, and the flat rate time is calculated by using hand tools only, so the air gun helps cut a ton of time off of the job. Plus you get a bit more for a trans rebuild compared to other under the hood jobs.
yeah screw that! I did work for Monro, and let me tell you their idea of flat rate! they start new guys at 9 an hour flat rate! then 90% of their walk ins is OIL CHANGE, pays 20 minutes! but in that Oil Change, CHECK air filter! belts all fluids wiper blades, rotate tires, check brakes! and all 4 tires air pressure! all tires must be doubled checked and torqued to proper spec! on top of it you had to fill out the paper work which was equal to a state inspection! ALL THIS IN 20 MINUTES!, yeah some cars it was possible, others, some air filters alone took near 5 minutes just to get it out, and only way you got paid for that, is if you sold one! then if a car was in need of brakes most didn't go for the job, it was grueling work! to have to do this 4 times in an hour! and then at the end of the week. I can really say times I put in 70 hours total, but got only paid for 40! and very few times I actually broke it, by putting in 40 and getting 70 worth, but that was very rare. I would have to pray for at least one good exhaust job and few brake jobs in my day everyday. and that just hardly ever happened. not fair in my eyes! and times I didn't even get a day off in my week! and still didn't manage to break it!
R&S Strauss was the same way brother
So was Firestone. They wanted to pay you .3 for an oil change, but have you raise and lower the car 7x, fuck that.
Front brakes paid .8, whether you cut the rotors or not
that's so true! Ideally, you want cars with like 60-80k miles on them from what I've noticed. Those cars will still have a few broken things on them but will still be worth it for the owner to repair.
Put applications everywhere someone will bite experience or not. You can even try a dealership. I worked at a Nissan dealer some of the express guys were 18 and didn't even have a high school diploma. All you have to do is get your name out there and let them know you want to learn and work.
Flat rate doing warranty jobs really sucks but I think an important factor is having a service manager that gets involved with the techs and tops them up on jobs that they loose their shirts on. Alot of managers I have seen just don't care about the technicians and it can be something as simple as an extra hour here and there on certain jobs that will make the difference.
Flat rate is essentially the mechanism the auto industry utilizes to keep the cost of repairs they incur for warrantee promises(utilized to sell their product) down....at the expense of the Technicians wages. Unfortunately they prey upon the young technician who has an honest love for the trade and doesn't necessarily know that there are many more profitable ways to make a living yet, utilizing the skillsets they have. Once they realize they're getting played , it's many times too late. They either stick it out purely for the love of the machine, smoke, and noise only to become angry n bitter or drop out , get a career in home HVAC, make tons more money repairing one crazy device instead of a conglomeration of several MIT grad science experiments wrapped up in one thing, called the automobile. All the while, the average new car owner still thinks Guber down the street at the local repair shop is all that's still required to maintenence and repair their little NASA space shuttle adding to the bitterness of that hard headed old technician that stuck it out!
This bubble of easy finance and warrantee promises is about to pop, and all the grumpy old mechanics out there are probably gonna be the only ones driving.... thinking to the rest of the planet, SUCK IT !! Fix it yourself!!
I had a company manager that wanted the heavy duty shop i worked in to look like a military operation, that ment a lot of extra janitoral work. The drivers would bring in a truck dripping mud off of them because in his opinion it was to much to ask drivers to clean their shit. The reality is when you drag A truck in for a service and you have to clean the area with a shovel first you than need to have a clean up person on staff because its taking a lot of expensive time for your journyman level tech to clean up before the next job comes in anyway glad not to be there now
i have worked at several ford dealerships as a flat rate technician. certain shops are easier to make more flat rate hours than other. I think flat rate warranty times do need to change. I wonder if ford knows there labor times encourage shotgun diagnosis? most warranty repair times aren't hard to beat if you stay focused and work hard and plan the repair so you can make money. diagnosis time however is shitty. .2 pull codes .2 perform ppt? .4 full diag? code and go!!!
16 years of not making a living and I'm hanging it up, I'm done with this crap, I've grown to absolutely hate it.
we should always get paid a base hourly pay. Due to the fact we do many thing that take up time that also may not even have to due with a repair like: paper work, clean up, bay organization/up keep, Rust being an issue, rounded fasteners, things that are already broken. part waiting, approval waiting, DIAGNOSTICS sometime needing to buy a specific tool for a job. We need the hourly pay to help make up for that.
Hey Eric. I was just thumbing through your older videos. I am about your vintage of a tech. Started as a pro in '89 and it has been my career ever since. Did some stints in dealers, I didn't care for it. Flat rate is the name of the game everywhere here in Colorado. I guess it is a love hate thing for me. As an older guy the heavy line jobs are not what I want to be doing anymore so I just do them and generally come in around book time. In independent shops the book needs to be a guide more than a carved in stone time. Most of the vehicles I see are an average of 10 years old. Colorado being a "destination" state these days I get them from all over the country. Some are rusty. Some are pristine. Some have had hacks who worked on them with a framing hammer and an adjustable wrench. It seems to me that the real problem for the guy at the end of the wrench comes from 2 places. Shop owners want turn around. "Knock it out and do it NOW"! Service writers/managers are too worried about losing the sale to get a little breathing room. I really miss my early days in the business. I was not nearly the tech that I am now but, there was something to be said for the customer talking "tech direct". In the old days service writers were kind of a dealership thing. When the indy shops started to bring them on it raised our labor rates and decreased my bottom line. Now I see far too many service writers running out to the lot with a code reader and then straight to Identifix to find the most hits on a code. They sell it and dispatch it and when the crank sensor didn't fix the issue. It becomes the technicians problem.I am a scope and scan guy anymore. Those kinds of tools are high dollar and take a lot of practice to understand. From what I have seen from some of the newer cars and even the hacked up decade old ones I can say that I think the future for Indy shops is going to be make specific. Even if it is two or three makes. Programming is the name of the game now. Right now I am using a Snap On Modis and an Autel Maxisys Pro. My Snap On does minimal programming at best and as much as I love the Maxisys, the lawsuits are killing me, even on flash updates. Where I am now I am seeing a ton of Chrysler products that need PCM replacement. Even without lawsuits the Autel will not do a module initialization on a PT Crusier. Just to get in the door on a used unit you are looking at 1800 bucks for a decent used one. The owner is not going to foot that bill. Then the software costs too. Costs a lot. So I suppose in conclusion. Flat rate is a guide to get you into the ballpark. When you go from (another) Ford 3.0 OHV timing cover gasket to a '05 BMW with a hard shift, to a '96 Chevy Cutaway van with 216k and a misfire freeze framed hot at highway speed, you cannot bat 1000. The tech needs some input. I guess I kind of covered a few of the automotive bases with this comment but, it is what it is. I love what you do 'bro. Wrenches, benches and no comebacks my man. Heaven in my book.
Love your videos, flat rates just a roll of the dice. Gotta put in the quality but some days are amazing and others I wonder if I kept those mailbox coupons 😂
One thing that no one has said is you can ask for more time, if the problem is large enough, I have one torn down in one of my bays the torque convertor is stuck in the crank, complaint was broken flywheel, it has not come loose yet with the largest pry bar Snap on makes nor anything else, I am asking for 4 more hours and new convertor, seal and maybe a new rear main seal, FYI it is a 09 E250 with a 5.4
I make a decent living off of flat rate right now, but I don't see it changing anytime soon. The dealership only gains from this system as the maintenance intervals keep getting longer and longer. There are no easy ways to change this system, they all require the employer and employee to gain and lose on something whether it be benefits or pay rate.
A simple solution to your complaint would have been to bring your vehicle back and tell them to do it right. They cannot charge you again if the work was performed improperly. Again, the system is not unfair, you just view it that way because you are the customer paying to have his car fixed. If you felt you could tackle it yourself, you should have done that in the first place. You can't pick and choose most of the time who works on your car, even if you request a certain technician.
I have also seen where the shop charges "hourly" but actually charges for what the book says it will take even if they get the job done quicker. Another unfair system.
definitely an old video but good one... i went to school for mechanics.. i worked for 2 ford dealerships til i decided to get outta the bullshit.. but i learned this.. you get your ass handed to you by one job.. youll remember that and what happened.. its learning experience...
i work for a transportation delivery company with 4000 vehicles nation wide 3500 ford f450s "fed ex" style trucks and about 500 5 tons and semi trucks. no flat rate here 30$/hr cdn. boring yes health benefits yes weekends no.
I work for Firestone now and they offer a guarantee of 30 hours per week. granted I'm typically there 50 hours per week. I am a new technician. Been at it almost 4 years. I wouldn't suggest jumping into the flat rate as an introduction to the industry. there are plenty of hourly lube and tire (general service) positions available that alot of people end up in when they can't make a living on the flat rate, and I would say, work a job like that until you can make those labor times. fair enough.
My dealership deals with warranty issue by saying no to all of them...every single one. And then when you complain to the corporation, they call the dealership, don't bother to even call you or look at your car and say the dealership was right. Then they hide behind the arbitration clause of their warranty as they know that arbitration firms will pretty much always side with the corporation over the individual. Basically Mitsubishi warranty ain't worth the paper it's written on.
Flat rate is good to ensure everybody gets paid the same and everybody pays the same... at least in theory.
If the flat rate for a certain type of repair is too low or to tight on time then the repairmen should bond together and refuse working on that particular problem until the rate is corrected. Sort of like a nationwide strike action among all sub contractors.
The customer has the ability to shape it the other way, he won't pay if the price is too steep and will find some other repair shop.
The problem is not only flat rate, but it also the base pay/hour.
Most dealers pay very low for base pay around $10-$13, so It is hard to make money.
Base pay x Flat rate = Salary , e.g. $12 x 8 = $96
Fortunately, our dealer are very busy, so we make more than 40 hours a week.
In CA, most dealers have paid either 40 hours or higher for flat rate hours a week for many years. I don't know how MB dealers pay.
I think it should be phased out in the computer repair world. A lot of the time I'd have to do my own research to figure out how to solve a problem or to find out what had caused it etc. Meaning I was using a lot of my own time aside from the repairs to do this.
A lot of people are also just deciding to throw computers out rather than repair them, so I don't think it works as well as it used to.
integrity honesty and creativity.
beware of a flat rate job with no guarantee is my point. I think a job that one week pays $350 and the next week pays $700 is okay. It is important though to save money when you work this way. one dynamic that has affected me at other jobs is that if you continuously take the guarantee the employer sees you an unproductive. if you cant bill your guarantee most of the time, a no guarantee might be right for you, but an hourly gig would undoubtably be better yet.
Personally, I look things up on my own time just to know what I'm getting myself into, and also to have an idea for an effective plan when I arrive. It makes you look more professional, and it's not like you need to charge for _every_ minute of your time (or you could figure research into your hourly rate). The 15 minutes you spend googling beforehand could mean repeat business and word of mouth, and therefore it benefits you in the long run.
When you add up the cost of all the tools you need, and all the years of school, it's almost like becoming a doctor, yet mechanics get shit on and treated like the bad guy every time. More has to do with the up front part of service, or the service advisors.
i would love 750 a week versus the 250 i make shit if i made 750 a week i could be sittin rather pretty right now
Looking slimmer Eric! Good for you!
It's a wonder there are any technicians left, what weird system. Your pay is basically at the roll of a die. If you roll a 1, you get bad day with rusty bolts and less than minimum wage. If you roll a 4-6, things are going your way and you actually earn something.
Shit like this happens all the time to drivers in the trucking industry. It needs to change.
The best place flat rate works is the dealer where you work on the same vehicles doing the same repairs day after day with factory support and equipment. You get very fast doing the same thing over and over but it's different at an independent shop where one minute your're working on a mercedes or bmw the next minute a ford. Try working on some of these vehicles at a small shop where repair information is unavailable. You'll find yourself working on vehicles you've never even seen before without any factory service information or special tools that may be required while trying to beat the flat rate time and a lot of times it doesn't work out for the tech . You 'll find yourself working on vehicles from new to old , good condition to junk because most independent shops will take in anything that's driven or towed in regardless of year , make or model and you're expected, may be on your first time , to do the repair as fast as the guy at the dealer that may have done that same repair hundreds of times .
Both have their pro's and con's for dealer vs independent shops. I worked for a Audi dealer for 4 years when I started in the industry. Yes, I got fast doing the same job over and over. But if any of the paper work was wrong. I did not get paid. As far as the equipment went. Only 1 tool for the whole shop, and it would get "lost" in someones tool box after a few weeks, and I would have to go asking everyone who has it. I remember when the A3 first came out and I had to look up some information and the info was still in German. When I went to the independent side (not a chain) I make just as much money and some years more. You do work on all makes and models but you can get info. IATN, Identafix, Mitchell, and Alldata are good resources to find info. You just have to know where to look. You can inspect the car before writing a est. and see if it has rust or someone has done some shade tree work, or some parts (plastic or rubber) are going to break during removal. Then you can quote more time or parts are needed, and explain why. Flat rate can be good and bad. I love working 40 hours and making 50-60, being honest and doing good work. If shops were hourly they would still judge you on a efficiency rating. I have asked my boss how he would work if we were hourly? He said if a tech was below 125% efficient he would look to replace that tech. That is how he does it now, He expects 125%. That way, everyone is happy. The tech is sitting around 50hrs a week and the shop is making money. My issue with those who hate flat rate are people who can not work in a professional auto repair environment. They are not bad techs, but can not or choose not to be efficient.
The dealer is not the promised land its purported to be, I started at a dealer a year ago, I'm in HELL
We have flat rate here in Canada.I myself have never worked flat rate.But know some guys who have and it's BS.They would get all the crappy non paying jobs while some guys were getting all the below time jobs.And when it was dead they wouldn't get paid.A buddy of mine said that at one time it was dead for weeks and when jobs would come in the guys would literally fist fight for the jobs.
that's just sad, here in the Netherlands you clock in the morning and when you leave, they take an hour off for lunchbreak and that's the hours you're paid
MOVING
I don't see why they don't just split the difference and offer flat rate + hourly time. This way, the mechanic has some leeway when it comes to rust, paperwork, downtime, etc. Yet, the hourly rate could be set low enough to still discourage being lazy and leeching money. It may cost slightly more for the dealership, but it might go a long way to increase the job satisfaction and feeling of security among technicians.
With the way that things are right now, just be happy you have a job even if you're on flat rate. There are a lot of people that can't even get a job right now.
Amen
Here in NZ all mechanics are on an hourly rate, dealership or not
No not necessarily. You won't know or understand until you are actually turning wrenches for beating book time instead of hourly wage. I worked at firestone doing what you are now as a tire slinger (general service) quite a while ago. There's a reason I don't work there anymore.
When there is no work, dealers don't want to pay techs. With flat rate, the techs have to wait with no pay. Doesn't cost the dealer anything to have you waiting around. Perfect for them but bad for a tech. Win Win for the dealer. I think hourly pay plus commission would be great. The dealer charges $100 per hour but pays techs only 15-20% of that
in most cases. They could afford it surely. This way, a tech could count on a minimum paycheck instead of riding a financial rollercoaster. VERY STRESSFUL .When its busy, he has an incentive to make more money. Everybody wins. This just makes sense. The base pay should be based on your skill level because some techs only do easy jobs that pay well and other techs do all of the poor paying and difficult jobs. Work is not equally distributed and this is where flat rate rewards low skill techs and punishes highly skilled professional techs. This would also improve customer satisfaction greatly. I have been in this business for 30+ years and I can tell you that without happy customers, everyone at the dealer looses out. I work at a dealership that understands how important "happy customers" are and we are busy pretty much all the time. Being an automobile technician is a highly skilled job and this field is loosing good technicians due to its pay system. Standards should be higher to be a technician and so should the pay. I have considered writing a book that would be very informative to customers as well as people thinking about being an automobile technician. Customers do not know how this all works. They would find it very interesting, I think. Thanks for reading my comment. It is something that I am very passionate about.
Flat rate system is antiquated. It was developed in the 30s when cars, owner expectations of the car and laws were simpler. It was a good system in those simpler days when quantity of work was the main focus. The system rewards those who can do the job faster and rightfully so. Quality of work back then was easier to achieve due to the simplicity of the times. Car repairs were simple and done fast. The technician, the dealership and the consumer all win. Fast forward to present day.....the car, the owners’ expectations and laws have evolved but not the flat rate system. The drivers of the evolution are emissions, safety and CAFE standards, cost of ownership and how consumers view and own their cars.
Present day car emissions and mileage/MPG are astronomically better than 20 years ago. We can almost breathe the tailpipe emissions these days. Some four cylinder mid size sedans are getting 30, 40 MPG easy. These numbers were fictional 20 years ago. To achieve these numbers, car manufacturers have engineered these cars with complex computer controlled emissions systems and state of the art materials and mechanical systems. When these systems break down, it is one hell of a puzzle to solve. The technician’s skills and knowledge of the car has to be up there to diagnose and solve it. When the solution is found and the repair is done, the flat rate system only pays for the repair time and not the time spent on the diagnosis. When the manufacturer does pay warranty claim for the diagnosis, it is not for the full time spent and you have to jump through a lot of paperwork hoops to get it.
Safety systems on present day cars are exponentially better than cars just made 5 years ago. Lasers, radars, cameras and sensors all work together to keep the driver and others around him safe. But these complicated systems gave birth to complicated repairs. You can’t replace anything these days with out calibrating something. These calibrations can not be a corner to cut since the car and driver are relying on these safety systems. A simple bumper skin or windshield replacement requires a calibration that takes an hour that warranty is reluctant to pay.
The biggest change that affected technicians is the cost of ownership of the car. Car manufacturers have engineered the maintenance out of these cars, which is great as all of us are consumers. Oil changes are done at triple the miles, 10000 miles instead of 3000. Transmissions are sealed and use a “lifetime fluid” that eliminated transmission services. Coolants are now rated as super long life coolants and are exchanged at 90000/100000 miles, versus the 30000 mile interval they used to have. Fuel filters are not an interval maintenance item anymore. Timing belts are a thing of the past. These are all done for us the consumer to spend less maintaining the car. Unfortunately as technicians, we see the results in a different perspective.
Looking forward, the ownership of the car is evolving. Majority of consumers are keeping their cars less. The next generation view their cars like they view their phones. Last years model is old, have to get the new one. With this kind of ownership, the car is always under warranty and maintenance is minimal. The dealership technician’s job has changed with this type of ownership and is still subject to change as the evolution of transportation keeps going.
The flat rate system is the big elephant in the room that everyone needs to talk about and address. Everyone includes the car manufacturers, their dealerships and the branches of government that governs them, not just the technicians. I don’t know what the solution is. But acknowledging the problem is the first step to one.
hearing this information about the flat rate system is kind of discouraging..... I'm making 300$ a week doing dishes at a retirement home. I've been a car guy since i was young and have always wanted to be a technician/mechanic and will be going to college to achieve that goal... But If I am going to pay for college and end up making less then i already make..., what would be the point?
I left the job I had out of auto school at a toyota dealership because of flat rate. flat rate is utter b.s. ... you literally can not do quality work trying to rush to get under the time wire that the flat rate book says. that leaves the customer with a hack repair job that could very well be unsafe , and flat rate makes the automotive profession EXTREMELY unattractive to new comers , because, like you said, we are basically sub contractors, with our own mortgage of tools etc. its a terrible unfair system that should be illegal. its the reason I went back to regular college and got out of the profession. total b.s. ive seen guys make bank on flat rate, buy the work quality of 95% of those guys is garbage.
Flat Rate encourages techs to do a half ass job and cut corners I've personally seen techs spray an axle seal with Brake Kleen rather than change it because it payed .3. And that's another thing, I am sick of working on my day off for free and not receiving time and a half after 40 hrs. The only way to get any where is if you eat, sleep, and breathe cars. That was cool when I was younger but I have a life. I work to live not live to work.
i was lucky i was given an option i could get a flat rate of 20 an hour or take 15 per hour i took the 15 per hour. the main reason was this, i took a hard look at what was coning into the dealership and what i would get if i went flat rate and it worked out to be the same in my check. the volume of work meant there would be times i would have no cars so do i want to stand around for 4 or 5 hours and only get a oil change and a rotate that payed 0.9 flat rate or would i only work for one hour and make 8. so i took the hourly pay. now i know i lose on some jobs. i.e. transmissions or engine work but at the same time i know how much i will make with every pay check.
now i have worked at places where you would get a low hourly pay but make commission on what you did witch was nice. in a place like that you might make 7.25 base hourly but on that same oil change and rotate you would also make 5 more dollars on commission and that could add up very fast.
ive heard many techs say the book time is not even close...they write it like pick up 3/8 ratchet from bench...loosen this bolt...go back to bench pick up 15mm ..walk back to car ..use wrench etc... nothing like it is in the real world.
They do time studies like this. A tech performs said job 3xs then they take an average of it then cut that time 1/2. But the tool fetching your talking about is free(and so is road testing, Diagnosis, writing an estimate, fetching parts, waiting on the service writer to get off the dam phone) You see the stop watch gets started when the tool touches the car, the minute you pull that wrench of the bolt "Click" time stops. So think of it this way, an 8hr job is 8hrs of actual tool labor(Like digging with a shovel) everything else is on you for free. But wait theres more! All your time guides like Mitchel, Alldata, Motors, chilton etc do not do any time studies. So guess what the already low time gets bumped up say 1-2hrs maybe. Well that gets it closer to reality but its still to low.
Flat Rate is great if you are young and never make mistakes or have bad days. It is also good if you have all C-Pay jobs and no warranty and cars waiting for you to work on. If you take any of those out of the equation, Flat Rate is a nightmare. Also the longer you work and your pay rate goes up, the less work you will get because they can pay young idealistic kids half of what they pay an experienced tech. Flat Rate is complete crap they need to do away with it. We need to put our foots down!!!
I graduated tech school about 3 months ago worked at chevy dealership right out of school and hated it ...flat rate is bull....since I'm new I get the oil changes and tire rotations and mind you then had a get an oil change in 15 minutes yes I know it doesn't take that long to do in oil change but they wanted to car racked multi point inspection and oil change plus mostly all had tire rotations and all done in 15 minutes....it was 5/10th in all so needless to say I left the dealership I became a maintenance technician for a couple hotels here in town and I'm hourly get paid about 5 bucks more an hour and I still go home and love to work on my cars
Eric there is no reason to 'bust your but'. People think that while your young you think that working flat out is the way to go. But that should not be the case. Work should be enjoyable and rewarding. If its not for you then leave and find another place. I also believe that you should love what you do.
Just remember work isbt everything. Money cant buy you happiness.
have you got anywhere with a copy of this labour guide? (even if it's for a dealership that doesn't take the vehicles I handle) cheers man
pretty mutch everyone here in australia gets paid by the hour. i do at a honda dealership
Sounds a lot like being a teacher, you get paid pretty much for the time that you actually have the kids, plus about a half hour before and after school. But, all the time you spend grading papers, writing lesson plans, calling parents, etc is unpaid. You're on a contract for 7 hours per day, everything else is working for free. Usually that's not even enough time to do the bare minimum required of you, let alone 1-on-1 work with kids who have special needs, family drama, discipline, applying for grants, planning fun activities, and everything else that makes a GREAT teacher, not just an average one.
It's not uncommon for a first year teacher to work 10-12 hour days but only get paid for 7 of them. The longer you've been doing it the more old/leftover stuff you have to fall back on, but even on your last year before retirement you'll still probably be working past your contract hours.
Now they even have apps like Class Dojo that allow parents to text you at all hours of the night. Imagine that as a mechanic/tech, "Hey bro you changed my oil now my A/C isn't cold, must be your fault, I want it fixed for free"
LoL, that's funny! Alot like being a teacher except you're working on things that are freezing cold, scalding hot, caustic, toxic, can cause long term health effects and require thousands of dollars worth of tools just to be able to work. We also get the customer/boss drama, do not have a teachers union which means we can still get fired/let go after 25 years of tenure (unlike most bad teachers). Did I mention won't don't get 3 months of paid leave every summer? Gosh, I wouldn't know what to do with myself.
I think they should have a minimum wage to the paperwork, etc. not the same minimum wage as everyone else but like $5/hr(like what waitresses and waiters, make. Atleast I know thats how it works in Canada) then have your average wage for when your working on the vehicles. But im not a Mechanic so I dont know if it would workout for people getting paid Flat Rate.
that GMC finally got attention
Dude, don't waste your money. I learned more in the first 3 months on the job. I wish somebody had told me this before I took out a $30,000 loan for Lincoln Tech. You don't need tech school to be a mechanic, invest the money you would put down on school on a good locking roll cart and socket and wrench set. Start out at a place like midas or meineke or monro muffler, you don't even need experience. Also don't waste your money on an expensive Snap-On box.
Also, doing 40-45 hours a week as a tech is not good. That's actually a bad week. 60-70 hours is what I usually shoot for in a week. 80-90 is doing good.
In essence, provide your own security in numbers... because without mechanics the world will collapse. Dealerships will be out of business and customers will be forced to walk or take the bus. (Of course, until the bus also has a problem)
Be vocal as a large group and you won't find yourself in a situation that can only be realistically compared to slavery.
the flat system is good as long as it is basis off of real life repairs not basis off of work done on the line at the factory.nit is quicker to replace the back plugs on a fwd vehicle when the engine is not in the car.
im glad i get paid hourly
I remember when i was just a few Years in at a Saturn Dealership and it was JULY , HOT and i was Very Busy working my Butt off . I Did Not Get a Break Or a Lunch Break , i was on hour 7 and got Yelled at for Drinking water from a water Fountain .... ( I made 10$ an hr)...... at the same time they had 3 managers who all make over 100k a year B.S ing for 2 hours ...... Now who is Making the Money and Who is Earning there Money?
hey eric how long should it take a decent mechanic to change four struts on a 2000 subaru impreza?
Flat rate is the reason I hate my job. I live in Indiana so cars are rusty and book time NEVER gives you enough time. It's bull. Not to mention working fast is how you mess up. Quality work and fast work are not the same thing
Agreed Hourly for sure! Flagging sounds shitty.
Ask for straight time for the paper work or waiting for parts.
All mechanics should make a minimum of 100 bucks as hour. They need to know much more than Medical Drs. for one example. Lawyers make 2 or 3 hundred an hour and a mechanic has to do as much reading and research as lawyers.
Negative. If the the book says it takes and hour, the customer needs to be charged an hour regardless of how long it takes the technician. The whole reason a technician has incentive to get better at his job and become more proficient is because of this system. If they started doing what you want to do, I sure a shit would take a full hour to do the job to make sure not only that I was paid the hour, but that the customer paid what they were supposed to.
Hey Eric how does car Diagnostics rate work. Is there a limit to how much u can spend diagnosing a car?
we get .6 for a set of four more for tpms and low profile tires