Im 41, going In to the game about 2 years ago. Have a pretty good RL collection. I’m just finding it so hard to buy new product at that price point. I’m really fortunate financially but what they are asking even for me seems excessive. I would rather pick up, LED, Gaea’s, etc. I do get a hard time because I play with the cards I collect, To me they are for enjoyment. I don’t have sentimental value to them like most.
I'll say this. The reserved list doesn't stop the old rarer cards value. The only cards on the reserve list that are absurd prices are the ones that people want for playability, not collectibility. I just want cards to play the game with. Card prices would tank if the game is not driven by players not by collectors. I want duals, I want LED, I want Wheel of Fortune for a deck in recently getting into competitive commander.
I think there’s a transition from player-driven to collector-driven somewhere around unlimited or revised, and I suspect you are right… If the collector side was replaced and the entire market was player-driven only, we would see huge price collapses
(20:00) I find it odd that The Price Cult of the Black Lotus does not obsess over the fact that the statute of limitations in a promissory estoppel action is usually four years. ... And, the longer the promisor (WOTC) breaches their promise, or the more changes the promisor (WOTC) makes to their original promise over time without any legal challenge or objection by the promisee, the harder it is for the promisee to enforce the promisor's (WOTC) original promise in the name of justice. ... With promissory estoppel, you can't have your cake and eat it too. ... ... ... IMHO, WOTC will continue to erode and evolve the meaning of the reserve list to create and boost new set sales. That's just good business. ... ... ... What's ironic is, back when I played, the reserve list only seemed to incentivize the use of proxies. ... ... ... Nice gets btw.
Have you watched the German Netflix series Dark? It's pretty awesome, but I can only describe it as somebody who watched primer and thought, "this isn't nearly complicated enough." 😂
@@AlphaHoarder Im in the middle of it right now actually. I enjoy time travel stories. Tenet on the other hand, I enjoyed but stands out as the most confusing and hard to follow.
@@AlphaHoarder IMO the "spirit of the RL" thing was just horseshit. At no point did they actually define it, which IMO is kind of important, and it felt to me arbitrary - not to mention that it came to be IIRC at least in part from the fork/reverberate debacle, and WotC listening to people who moaned - when they should have said "The RL specificied this and that aren't allowed, this is allowed, so we are within our rights to do it," and found a polite way to tell them to pound sand.
Heh yeah I mean I certainly didn’t predict this event or timetable, but I’ve long believed people were putting a bit too much faith in that list. On the upside, if they reprint my collectible portfolio into the ground, at least I’ll have one comment that aged well 😅
One of my pet peeves is sellers using scotch tape instead of blue painters tape. It's a little thing but not leaving adhesive residue on top loaders and just an easier release of cards from backing makes a big difference. /e spelling
Yeah I mean, my guess is there is as much division within wizards on the topic, as there is out here. For sure, some people are itching to. It’ll be a question of internal precedent, company policy, and who’s in charge. All of those variables are opaque… personally though, I suspect they wouldn’t break it with power 9 or dual lands anyway. Those are just too iconic and incendiary and could threaten the entire ecosystem.
I always found it strange that people think the Reserve List protects the prices of good condition Alpha cards. Like, Sol Ring used to be on the Reserved List, It’s got to be the most-reprinted cards because it comes in like every Commander precon, and an Alpha Sol Ring is still worth thousands of dollars. Also, Underground Seaweed seems like the perfect card for an Un-set, it will pair perfectly with Blacker Lotus
I started in revised, so I had a foot in both doors. I can say many in my playgroup were excited for chronicles which meant access to elder dragons, carrion ants, blood moon etc. and at the same time happy we had duals that were now reserved and had some value now. Those forementioned cards were 20-25 bucks at the time and took a major hit. Conversely of course those that had those cards were not happy. What drives value is playability and scarcity. Cabal coffers and wasteland were starting to become valuable cards until the numerous reprints. If the RL was done away with, revised would take the biggest hit in value and probably work your way backwards for the remaining sets. In other words, the RL premium is a higher % of overall value in a revised RL card as opposed to ABU Four Horsemen sets. Rosewater only mentioned pro-reserve mostly silent on social media, that means they are probably voicing their opinion through other channels. While a bigger number than I assume, I think they are still minority but very vocal. I am somewhat ambivalent on this issue. I do consider the risk of RL being abolished in making purchases along with currently not networked into the market as I will never just flat up sell vintage at buylist prices.
That’s an interesting account from having sat on both sides of the issue. I also think you’re quite right, there’s probably a line going through Revised edition with an increasing impact of the reserved list occurring forward in time and a decreasing impact occurring backwards in time.
I agree with that, assuming (as many people do) that their hesitation revolves around the estoppel. The announcement breaks the grounds of the promissory estoppel, but there are no damages from an actual reprint, for a time. Probably just a year or two notice would suffice, after which point a claimant wouldn’t have much ground to stand on.
Great commentary. I listened to the effect the judge foils has, but I'm still not convinced a reprinted List card is really the same card. New frame, new set symbol, new art, new everything. A card printed now isn't the same as a card printed then no matter how functionally identical. To me the analogy from numismatics seems best. You can mint coins and functionally they're the same. For the collector, a 1909 penny doesn't have the same value as a 2022 penny no matter how many are minted. Is the value really that affected by the function?
Very good analogy. I suppose it depends on the distribution of players vs collectors creating demand for those particular old cards. A reprint will siphon pressure only from the player crowd, leaving the collector demand unchanged.
I'm regards to the Upper Deck lawsuit, why isn't the new MTG set with Legends cards manually inserted considered gambling? Wizards isn't just printing cards, they are adding expensive reserve list cards randomly as prizes?
Good question! Perhaps this is evidence that gambling concerns are *not* the reason for the policies around the reserved list after all. Even if they pretend they have nothing to do with the secondary market, it would be hard to explain how inserting a tabernacle isn’t a lottery 🤔
Love Reserved List discussions. Tradition? What frustrates me about the RL is that they continue to HONOR the PAST but they do not EXPAND it here in the PRESENT. So it's this weird old relic. If Mark Rosewater is to be believed that the RL will never change, then EMBRACE it!? Seems like an easy way to add value to specific cards. Why not add 1 card per set or 1-3 cards per year to the list? Print them 1 last time in a premium product or Secret Lair and then retire them. Reprinting? Another frustrating part of the RL is the fact they can't make "better" versions of the Reserved List cards. This from a practical perspective is so vague. Fork & Reverberate are great examples of nearly identical RL reprinting. Roc of Kher Ridges is a good example of a weird old RL card that got reprinted to a functionally better version. Values? I don't think Reserved List matters that much to the value of Alpha cards. If they reprint Word of Command or a functionally better version, is the ALPHA version really going to drop? I doubt it. But I do think revised RL cards would be impacted (maybe 25-50%?) if reprinted. Your examples: Loved Underground Seaweeds haha. They no doubt will go down this path at some point. There are just so many available versions and circumventions of these cards that they can print without messing with Reserved List. Your crux: Exactly, Serra Angel, Fork, and Time Vault in Alpha edition are all great examples of why Alpha collectors aren't too worried about the RL fears.
Thanks for that comment, you bring up so many great points. The tradition thing is a strange one… It’s like they want to stay on the fence for some reason, instead of committing one way or the other. They say they’ll stand by it but they make it clear they don’t actually want to. I would be very interested to see what it would look like if they did what you suggested and embraced it!
I don't think they should expand the reserved list in a general sense, but they should be clear and consistent on, for example, showcase cards. Every standard set (and even premium sets these days) has alternate art or showcase frames. For example the "weeb walkers" from War of the Spark, or the Mystical Archive treatment, or the "constellation" frames from Theros 2. They should be clear that these are collector frames and, should the base card be reprinted, it will have the normal frame. They've already printed some showcase frames in "the List" however. Another example might be Secret Lair, which is almost entirely reprints with special art or frames. As a collector, it would be great to have a "promise" like in the case of the reserved list that these cards will never be reprinted with this art/these special frames/treatments.
@@meatrace Exactly. Why not formalize that they won't reprint Force of Will Borderless Foil from Double Masters with the same art? My suspicion is that WoTC has no interest in restricting their reprint equity in any form. Everything except Reserved List is on the table.
Yeah, the fact that they kept finding ways to get around the RL shows they could get around it any time they want. pre Zendikar, like he said, when WotC needed a boost in sales, all of a sudden another loophole. Not entirely sure tho why they even commented on functional or near functional reprints. Why paint yourself into a corner when you don't have to. WotC(Hasbro) has a legal team likely on retainer and any lawsuit would simply fail and cost the plaintiffs legal costs for nothing. The RL is WotC's silver bullet. if they ever need to have a great quarter or make up for a bad mistake, what a coincidence, another loophole will be found.
Hey Mike, thanks once again for a relaxing episode. Great to hear about the Reserved List, but I simply think there are too many HNW individuals that would harm Hasbro, and that along with the myriad reasons you mentioned make it near-impossible. I mean, sure there’s a chance, but not one that I think is remotely likely.
Thanks for watching as always 💪 I suspect you are right, and this would keep them away from the big canonical pieces (Underground Seaweed probably never will be). To me the risk increases as we consider how close they might come to “functional reprints” of the second-tier RL stuff, especially if the company faces sustained financial turbulence in the future. IMO they still have enough other options to not need to go there, but with the public information on the topic, I worry that can’t be asserted with the certainty many people give it.
In 2002 when they removed the original uncommons and commons from the list they also added in Ice Age, which for some reason had been skipped initially. Also of note, of the 10 Judges promos (and one player reward) of reserved list cards, one was done before it was reserved list (Gaea's Cradle). One a year was leaked out for most of 7 years (2003 to 2009 -- though for a couple of those it was zero). In 2010 four were reprinted (two of which were already fairly high value), and that's what sparked the 2010 reserved list crisis. If WotC was going to make a stand that's when they had to do so. The fact they backed down and closed loopholes, strengthening the list, allegedly under potential threats of legal action(s), speaks volumes. Edit: I forgot about the the other items from 2010 that helped cause the uproar: From the Vault: Relics reprinted 4 more cards, plus there was one from a duel deck. So in 2010 9 cards got reprinted from the reserved list. That's 60 percent of the total that ever came out (again, excluding Gaea's Cradle as it was reprinted before it was on the list).
Oh interesting. I know Ice Age is mentioned specifically in the policy publication in Duelest (link in the description) for "Rare 1" cards, but now that you mention it, they don't itemize Ice Age cards in the actual list on the adjoining page.
@@AlphaHoarder Yup, so even though Ice Age itself was nominally included, none of its cards were. They fixed that in 2002. They also removed Feroz's Ban, which they had on the list but had actually already been reprinted twice.
Any promissory estoppel case wouldn't be about the average Magic player/collector with some small amount of RL cards in their collection. The case would revolve around three parties, high end collector/investors whose collections are valued in the six or seven + figures, the original artists who own the rights to their art on those cards, and game stores that have invested heavily in RL cards to have in stock. These groups have much more invested in keeping the List in place. Hasbro doesn't want the negative press. It's merely baggage that came along with WOTC, Hasbro would have no interest in getting involved in such legal issues. The general public has no idea why they keep the RL for sure, and as such our opinions about it are meaningless. And all leaked info from "people on the inside" is most likely all disinformation. I know a few high end collectors that are heavily invested in RL cards. These people have basically stated that they've already consulted lawyers about this, and are ready and willing to bring a class action suit if WOTC rescinds the List.
Very good points, and I've heard similar statements too. I personally suspect (as indicated in the video) that WoTC would be on much firmer ground, though. A key condition in an estoppel is the clear expectation that a reasonable person might be expected to rely on the promise. The timeline of events from decades ago seems to remove this foot. But... that may all be irrelevant. If enough well-financed people brought a lawsuit, you could well be right that Hasbro wouldn't want to touch it win or lose, and would settle and/or desist immediately just to stop the noise.
@@AlphaHoarder , chances are that this point WOTC wouldn't lose the case. I agree that the card values would maintain most of their value, and that any lost value would be regained in not too much time. But why stir up the pot. Especially when the Dominaria United collector's boxes alone will generate over 40 million in revenue, if they all sell. What WOTC could do to quell all this RL buzz, would be to formally take over control of the Commander format and then ban all RL cards. Because not enough people play Legacy or Vintage, and those that do are already invested, for them to matter. It's predominately the Commander crowd clamoring about the RL, ban those cards and the noise stops (well not really, but the volume would be severely reduced). Although then everyone would be all upset about the money they spent on cards that they can no longer use. Ha, ha, ha, WOTC cannot win. Since every move they make is a losing move, not moving is the simplest, safest option.
To be fair given a lot of recent things with the market, I question just how much a reprint of a card will actually damage it. Like take the case of Imperial Seal as of late: it's now readily available to people, they can get it for a pretty penny still but it's still 'reasonable'. There was a lot of speculation that the P3K version would crash in price. It however didn't, if anything it mostly stayed steady and had an extremely short slight dip. Goblin Settler same case, it's getting a Secret Lair reprint but if anything the original rose slightly in price because people weren't aware of it. Granted these aren't reserve list, but it's still a good example of "just how much would a reprint affect things?" Especially if that reprint isn't in the same frame. Heck even the Chronicles reprinting has done nothing to stop Nicol Bolas from being one of the most expensive cards in Legends.
That’s a very good argument. I’m interested to see how the Imperial Seal situation continues to play out. It’s probably necessary to separate the duals into one pile, and almost all the other reserved list cards into another pile. It seems like a decision to reprint from one group verse the other might have very different ramifications.
I’m not sure you give enough credit to the old school format for driving up the price of Alpha cards. It wasn’t too long ago that you could buy these Alpha cards for a fraction of the price. I would be more worried about that format failing than the reserve list being abolished.
A good point. I wonder if a more careful analysis of the price movement in, say, Beta as compared to Alpha, would help discover what role Alpha40 is playing in the price increases these last few years. In any event, I don’t consider the reserved list likely to be abolished, I just don’t like how many people treat it as a commandment from on high. WoTC’s relationship to that reprint policy has been shaky from the start, so I figure it’s worth having this in one’s risk assessment equation, if nothing else.
Your "Underground Seaweed" card wouldn't break the RL nor would it impact the value of Underground Sea. By being only able to use the mana during your main phase means that it'd be useless for Vintage and Legacy, the fact that you didn't give it the Swamp and Island subtypes means it's not fetchable, so it's just be a lackluster dual in a long line of those. Are you aware of the Battlebond duals? They do not have the basic land types and they come into play untapped if you have more than one opponent. Pretty close to the originals, but nowhere near the value.
Fair enough re: Underground Seaweed. I'm not a player, so I didn't spot those technical issues, but hopefully the example still demonstrates the point. I'm sure you could find a trivial drawback while adding something extra to get a card that's clearly better. Real examples of purely better reprints exist (such as Moonveil Regent vs Roc of Kher Ridges) but I'm not aware of any on such a playable card as a dual land. Also it was fun photoshopping the card text lol. As for Battlebond duals, I'm not sure off hand which those are, but one problem (and I'm not saying this is true or false, just observing...) is that now that the card exists, we actually can't say if the price of the dual land was impacted. It's possible Revised duals would be worth more than they are today, if such cards had never appeared. It's possible the existence of such card haven't had any impact on the price at all. This is a little stickier to pull apart that it might first appear. However, I suspect such an impact declines as we go from Revised to Unlimited, and on back in time. Appreciate the comments and the points you raised.
@@AlphaHoarder , Battlebond released June of '18. This was at a time when the RL market was skyrocketing. There was no dip in the value of dual lands. It seemed to me from some of your statements that you might not be a player, and those little technicalities make all the difference in a cards play value, which then translates into its monetary value. With some jank RL cards it is possible to create strictly better versions, but with dual lands already seen as too powerful, a strictly better version will "never" exist. So to speculate in that direction is simply meaningless. Moonveil Regent does not break the RL. It's a dragon with a bunch of abilities, not a bird. If it were a bird then it would. All of a cards types are considered when discussing the RL. Eladamri's Call in effect should break the RL, but once again that whole card type thing comes into play. Were Eladamri's Call a Sorcery it would certainly break the RL, but being an Instant, it gets around the restriction. Reverberate, while seeming to be nothing more than a copy of Fork, is a technically different card. The fact that Fork's copy is red is mechanically relevant to game, likewise the fact that Reverberate's copy maintains its original color is too mechanically relevant. Even if those instances where it would matter are few and far between, it still matters. I've been arguing about, discussing, debating, and pontificating in online forums, about the RL since at least 2007. There isn't a perspective, point, or thought on the topic that has been hashed and rehash a million times over. It's the same discussion over and over again, just each time with people new to the concept. Like Rosewater said, the sooner we accept it and move on, the happier we can all be. Easy for me to say since I own a lot of the RL.
I appreciate those insights. Your breakdown highlights how it stands at their discretion what constitutes a “functional” re-print versus an adequate distinction. In any case, in my experience, this is the nature of all long-standing & complicated arguments, no matter the topic, as different nodes enter and exit the hive mind, so to speak. I think there is always value in the rehash and the conversation, even if it’s the millionth time 🙂 I appreciate your humoring me on 1 million and one.
I definitely don't think that generally speaking, the value in the old reserved list high value cards is their power. Plenty of stuff has come since that players can make as good of or better use of. Their value is their rarity and the nostalgia factor of having the OG versions. To that end, wotc could eliminate the reserved list and reprint Black Lotus - it's not going to make the OG versions drop in value. If anything, I wager it'd increase their value, as players can get their hands on new prints and this drives interest in getting their hands on the originals! The collectible world of MtG and Pokemon is so interesting in that there are, as you noted, almost two separate interest tracks - the players and the collectors. There's overlap, but it varies.
That’s a really interesting point about driving attention back to the OG. There would be an interesting equilibrium at play there. As someone else mentioned, the current situation with Imperial Seal, although not reserved list, could offer insights into how this might play out. It also depends on the frequency/approach they deployed in re-printing cards.
Even if the Reserve List disappeared tomorrow and there was no lawsuits and drama about it, if you think WotC will reprint Dual Lands or Power 9 ever in a meaningful way you are a fool. We would be talking about getting a playset of Red Neon Ink Hidetsugus levels of chance to open 1.
There is of course the idea of promissory estoppel but at the same time I believe at some point WOTC will realize there is just more money if they end the reserve list. If they lose 10 million in legal fees and lawsuits I believe the return will be way over that. There is also the argument that a reprint will not affect the value of the old cards which I believe may work in a court setting with people who do not truly understand the game and investment part of it. At the end of the day it just takes a couple people getting in a high position who want it gone. The court case I image would drag on for 2-3 years and unless he judge says don’t reprint during this time they could possibly make the money back from any law suit before the case even ends. The money just seems to great not do at some point.
Yeah all very good points. I happen to think it’s not something they’re looking at right now, but who knows what the future might bring? It worries me when people discount this risk and imagine that the reserved list is carved in marble.
Let's be honest, when people want RL cards what they're really saying is that they want OG Dual Lands. Most cards on the RL are jank garbage, not worth reprinting. The other cards are in the category of being too powerful for most formats. These cards couldn’t be put into a basic set. So they’d most likely have to put then into a set like Double Masters or a Secret Lair. The reprints would drive prices of these products through the roof. Just watch what happens to the Dominaria United collector boxes. Those are going to be way more expensive than they ought to be all for the chance of getting one Legends card per case. So “if” WOTC were to rescind the list it would be in a way for them to maximize profit and any product containing RL cards would not be at consumer friendly prices. They would mostly get bought up by whales anyway. Rescinding the RL doesn’t mean WOTC will just flood the market with reprints for the masses. Currently WOTC can make plenty of profit by printing cards that are similar to RL cards, all without the drama, time, and expense of a court case. Court cases involve a lot of financial uncertainty and risk. WOTC is doing just fine without needing to dip into the RL. There are obviously costs associated with doing business, but no business wants extra, unknown, unnecessary expenditures. Then there is the problem of optics. It’s amazing how many people believe that WOTC getting rid of the RL would be a sign that the company is failing. Not an image they’d want to project. Now as to a lawsuit, a judge and jury have no need to understand Magic the Gathering, no need to understand the vagueries of the collectables markets or anything like that. All a judge and jury need to understand is that party A made financial decisions based upon a promise that party B made. If party B breaks that promise and there COULD be financial implications, then party B is at fault. End of story. It doesn't what happens in the long run, what matters is, at the time of trial, is that financial collapse could happen. A large and unwritten and unspoken aspect of why WOTC keeps the RL in place is to protect the values of the art on those cards. Early artists got paid in royalties, meaning that the artists own the rights to that artwork. By keeping the RL in place the value of those pieces of art is kept in place for those artists.
@@deeterful Great point about the fact breaking the list isn't the same as flooding the market. It would be the height of stupidity for them to release, say, "Reserved List Masters" and dump them all at once. It would be 1 big hit a year kind of thing, allowing them to span years. And also a good point about the art work. I've heard mumbling about that as well, though I couldn't pin it to a source I could cite for the video. In any case, they could do a reprint with different art if that was the main tripwire they were avoiding. Seems to go back to what I lamented in the video... we don't actually know what their guardrails are, so it's very hard to understand what they might or might not be willing to do. Appreciate the thoughtful comment.
@@AlphaHoarder , I imagine that the list of reasons they have to keep the list in place includes all the things you've stated plus a few I did as well. I'm sure it's not a single, simple reason. If the reason about artist's royalties and card value traces it's origin to Chronicles, then a reprint of those cards with differing art could be construed as WOTC dipping into the artist's income streams. One of the ways WOTC "paid" the early artist along with royalties was with sealed product. In essence any value the cards gained would be the ability for the artists to sell their cards in the future. So it behooves those artists that their cards earn and maintain the highest market value. Imagine the fear that the price crash Chronicles created in those artists. Having an asset accrue a fairly descent value, which you were counting on, suddenly plummet. I couldn't care less about the people who bought cards and then the values changed. Collectables are like the stock market, easy come, easy go. But for the artists this was akin to losing their 401K. Now at this time, with the value of those old, original prints, the market is safe from reprints devaluing them, but someone must still have shell shock from Chronicles.
An interesting exercise, for those so inclined, is to consider the magnitude of the costs involved in reprinting just the dual lands. Alpha, Beta, and to a certain extent Unlimited versions wouldn't be affected much (though they would be affected). But Revised versions would absolutely tank, and everyone knows and no one denies this. Start doing the math and you realize the potential amount of money involved is staggering -- large enough where Hasbro as we know it might be put in jeopardy. Regardless of how you think the case would go, there's no way Hasbro runs that risk, especially since the whole of the reserved list would get dragged in at that point.
Very true. Even a small % impact across all dual lands in circulation would be monstrous. Assuming there is any legal standing for the estoppel. It doesn’t seem like something they would need to play with unless things were going very poorly
Revised duals might take a dip for a moment, but if new ones were printed, it wouldn't be in enough volume to meet demand, if we are to look at how they currently curate higher value reprints as any indicator of how they would go about it. Also, any significant dip in the price of Revised duals would start a buying frenzy in the Old School 93/94 community. And once that happens prices go back up. There are no small number of folk who prefer original printings, and for many, Revised is original enough.
revised editions would not "absolutely tank". the value has nothing to do with how many legal copies of a card are in circulation, but how many original copies are. anyone that would suddenly let go of copies at a fraction of what the current value is, doesn't have those cards to begin with.
Beautiful cards as always. Jayemdae Tome! Time Vault!! 🤩 Nice discussion on the RL. I think if anything they should start adding a handful of cards to the list every year, starting with Mercadian Masques and then moving forward. Shouldnt be all the bangers in a set, but would be nice for newer players to buy cards that retain value.
Honestly to continue this line of thinking. I think it should rotate. Every 10 years cards come off and onto the list. Cards of high demand by players are taken off and printed in a core set then put back onto the list once that core set rotates out of standard. Hell this can even be used to work with lore, for example. Nicol Bolas. All versions prior to his imprisonment are reserved and nicol when he returns has to start from scratch. None of his old powers can return for his new cards. And his old cards only return in special sets during major anniversaries.
I believe that the entirety of the wizards team and finances is very formidable - however, you completely underestimate who are the people that own these cards -- Woz, Post Malone now funny enough, super geniuses that are now hedge fund owners like Jon Finkel. These legends net worths combined are bigger than or close to Hasbro and have an insane number of super geniuses - and honestly, if they combined forces would make the entirety of Hasbro, a multi billion dollar company, look only meh. Also, all of these super geniuses that have these insane reserved lists cards also happen to be pretty damn good friends with all the people that work at Wizards on top of all the possible legal and insane smashings these geniuses would do to Wizards. Simply put - a crazy amount of the smartest people I have ever met in my life and honestly smartest people in the world own this stuff, you dont want to mess with them.
It’s one of those things that there’s no way to measure beyond anecdotal accounts, but it would be interesting to know to what extent the worlds largest collectors are “extended family” to the Hasbro executives. I’d also really like to know what the exposure of some of these people you mentioned is, compared to their net worth. That would give us insight into how much they would throw behind an issue like this, if push came to shove.
@@AlphaHoarder I am currently at about a 75 percent exposure rate to collectibles ( scary at 39 years old, I know, im a part of the psycho group lol ) and some of these folks have a lot: original art of key pieces, stacks of old boxes, etc. and honestly I think at this point other than the billionaires like Woz it might be more exposure than you think, more than 10 percent, etc. I think a lot of the largest collectors are "extended family", say, idk something crazy like 1/2? Just a guess but mentally putting the pieces together of a general who has what seems about right ( I kept editing the extended family part lol man maybe its only about 1/3 that one is very tough as I was good friends with many old schoolers, but sometimes we were just acquaintances and have not kept up over the years )
They have much more to lose than to win from breaking the list. It’s also great marketing for the brand that there are such expensive cards. Those first Sea reprints you show are all worse than the original, nobody would play those instead of Sea. What did change the amount of dual lands needed per deck is fetchlands.
I tend to agree. I think it’s less certain than some people believe, but that’s not to say it’s likely or even probable. As to the second part, I’m not a player and someone pointed out my version isn’t fetch-able. Let’s just pretend mine was oracle’d in the same manner as the original lol.
“Why bother fiddling with the old stuff”
“Can they circumvent in way that impact card value”
Prophetic
They’re really giving it the old college try, aren’t they 🤦♂️🤦♂️ Thanks for watching… crazy how much has changed in just a few months!
@@AlphaHoarder exactly my thought when re watching this
Another great educational video
I mean...wasn't anything we didn't know.
Great video!!!
Thanksfor watching 👍
This was an interesting video. Ty
Thanks! This video was pre the magic 30 announcement, so obviously that changed some things
Im 41, going In to the game about 2 years ago. Have a pretty good RL collection.
I’m just finding it so hard to buy new product at that price point. I’m really fortunate financially but what they are asking even for me seems excessive.
I would rather pick up, LED, Gaea’s, etc. I do get a hard time because I play with the cards I collect, To me they are for enjoyment. I don’t have sentimental value to them like most.
Def a lot of price memory baked into BIN listings
Time vault is beautiful. Toujours un plaisir de regarder tes vidéos.
Appreciate that. It is always a pleasure to see you drop by 🙂
I'll say this. The reserved list doesn't stop the old rarer cards value. The only cards on the reserve list that are absurd prices are the ones that people want for playability, not collectibility. I just want cards to play the game with. Card prices would tank if the game is not driven by players not by collectors. I want duals, I want LED, I want Wheel of Fortune for a deck in recently getting into competitive commander.
I think there’s a transition from player-driven to collector-driven somewhere around unlimited or revised, and I suspect you are right… If the collector side was replaced and the entire market was player-driven only, we would see huge price collapses
I appreciate your response. As a pkayer I want certain cards but refuse to pay prices of cards to play this game.
(20:00) I find it odd that The Price Cult of the Black Lotus does not obsess over the fact that the statute of limitations in a promissory estoppel action is usually four years. ... And, the longer the promisor (WOTC) breaches their promise, or the more changes the promisor (WOTC) makes to their original promise over time without any legal challenge or objection by the promisee, the harder it is for the promisee to enforce the promisor's (WOTC) original promise in the name of justice. ... With promissory estoppel, you can't have your cake and eat it too. ... ... ... IMHO, WOTC will continue to erode and evolve the meaning of the reserve list to create and boost new set sales. That's just good business. ... ... ... What's ironic is, back when I played, the reserve list only seemed to incentivize the use of proxies. ... ... ... Nice gets btw.
Interesting point about the statute of limitations…!
There is a directors commentary to Primer. Its not super complicated, but gets a little confusing towards the end but it makes sense.
Have you watched the German Netflix series Dark? It's pretty awesome, but I can only describe it as somebody who watched primer and thought, "this isn't nearly complicated enough." 😂
@@AlphaHoarder Im in the middle of it right now actually. I enjoy time travel stories. Tenet on the other hand, I enjoyed but stands out as the most confusing and hard to follow.
I'll check that one out
You and Rudy should have a collection battle. See who's hoard is bigger.
It’s definitely Rudy. He was doing this for a long time when prices were sooo much lower. His accumulation power was enormous.
Think they would ever print a Snow Covered Tropical Island?
My guess is no, but who knows how the tide could change in the future 🤔🤷♂️ Appreciate the comment
I always figured that’s how they will get around reprinting dual lands
Thanks for the video!
Thanks for watching!
Your best video discussion by far. I bet Rudy would appreciate this video as well
Thanks for that really positive feedback 👍👍
Lol, Primer is one of my favorite movies that no one else seems to know about. Still not 100% sure what’s happening but love watching it.
👍
I know, right? lol. This chart should clear it up: xkcd.com/657/
@@AlphaHoarder Ah! It all makes sense now! I had it all wrong.
Nothing prevents STRONGER cards either like a dual land that triggers a lifegain when you play it.
Especially now that the “spirit” is officially dead
@@AlphaHoarder IMO the "spirit of the RL" thing was just horseshit. At no point did they actually define it, which IMO is kind of important, and it felt to me arbitrary - not to mention that it came to be IIRC at least in part from the fork/reverberate debacle, and WotC listening to people who moaned - when they should have said "The RL specificied this and that aren't allowed, this is allowed, so we are within our rights to do it," and found a polite way to tell them to pound sand.
I agree. I never expected it would end quite like this, but I was long saying that people were putting too much stock in the RL.
Who knew that you could predict the future? New ceo, sales are down, reprint the reserve list to generate tremendous income!
Heh yeah I mean I certainly didn’t predict this event or timetable, but I’ve long believed people were putting a bit too much faith in that list. On the upside, if they reprint my collectible portfolio into the ground, at least I’ll have one comment that aged well 😅
Great video Mike. Insightful and well done with plenty of great eye candy.
Thanks Dave 👍
Man its been like 10 years since i've seen Primer, haha. What a mind f of a movie but big fan!
Gorgeous Time Vault, thank you for sharing as always.
Thanks Nathan, appreciate you watching!
Mark Tedin is my favorite artist.
Me too!
All sea weed cards you showed where not fetchable so have nothing to do with dual right !?
I copied the graphic from the Alpha card so I guess we can pretend they’d be oracle’d properly 🙂
One of my pet peeves is sellers using scotch tape instead of blue painters tape. It's a little thing but not leaving adhesive residue on top loaders and just an easier release of cards from backing makes a big difference. /e spelling
100%. Not only does it ruin the top loader, it makes it hard to get the cards out safely!
@@AlphaHoarder YES!
Centering on that Tome is wrecked.
Yeah, centering can be rough on these old cards 😅
I think the reserved list is here to say. Great info in here
if they already reprinted cards like the Wheel, theyve already broken the reserve list. They probably secretly want to reprint the Power 9.
Yeah I mean, my guess is there is as much division within wizards on the topic, as there is out here. For sure, some people are itching to. It’ll be a question of internal precedent, company policy, and who’s in charge. All of those variables are opaque… personally though, I suspect they wouldn’t break it with power 9 or dual lands anyway. Those are just too iconic and incendiary and could threaten the entire ecosystem.
@@AlphaHoarder theyll probably end up breaking it when all the old heads are out of the company like 40 years from now if the game is still alive.
Knowing Hasboro, they will reprint the reserved list slowly and milk as much money from it as they can. Just a matter of time.
That is certainly a plausible eventuality
I always found it strange that people think the Reserve List protects the prices of good condition Alpha cards. Like, Sol Ring used to be on the Reserved List, It’s got to be the most-reprinted cards because it comes in like every Commander precon, and an Alpha Sol Ring is still worth thousands of dollars.
Also, Underground Seaweed seems like the perfect card for an Un-set, it will pair perfectly with Blacker Lotus
Agreed, I suspect Alpha’s value is pretty insulated compared to any other set!
I started in revised, so I had a foot in both doors. I can say many in my playgroup were excited for chronicles which meant access to elder dragons, carrion ants, blood moon etc. and at the same time happy we had duals that were now reserved and had some value now. Those forementioned cards were 20-25 bucks at the time and took a major hit. Conversely of course those that had those cards were not happy. What drives value is playability and scarcity. Cabal coffers and wasteland were starting to become valuable cards until the numerous reprints. If the RL was done away with, revised would take the biggest hit in value and probably work your way backwards for the remaining sets. In other words, the RL premium is a higher % of overall value in a revised RL card as opposed to ABU Four Horsemen sets. Rosewater only mentioned pro-reserve mostly silent on social media, that means they are probably voicing their opinion through other channels. While a bigger number than I assume, I think they are still minority but very vocal. I am somewhat ambivalent on this issue. I do consider the risk of RL being abolished in making purchases along with currently not networked into the market as I will never just flat up sell vintage at buylist prices.
100% what I experienced also when I started in revised.
That’s an interesting account from having sat on both sides of the issue. I also think you’re quite right, there’s probably a line going through Revised edition with an increasing impact of the reserved list occurring forward in time and a decreasing impact occurring backwards in time.
I think there is a way out of the RL by first announcing that it's going away and yet then not print anything from it for over a decade.
I agree with that, assuming (as many people do) that their hesitation revolves around the estoppel. The announcement breaks the grounds of the promissory estoppel, but there are no damages from an actual reprint, for a time. Probably just a year or two notice would suffice, after which point a claimant wouldn’t have much ground to stand on.
Great commentary. I listened to the effect the judge foils has, but I'm still not convinced a reprinted List card is really the same card. New frame, new set symbol, new art, new everything. A card printed now isn't the same as a card printed then no matter how functionally identical. To me the analogy from numismatics seems best. You can mint coins and functionally they're the same. For the collector, a 1909 penny doesn't have the same value as a 2022 penny no matter how many are minted. Is the value really that affected by the function?
Very good analogy. I suppose it depends on the distribution of players vs collectors creating demand for those particular old cards. A reprint will siphon pressure only from the player crowd, leaving the collector demand unchanged.
I'm regards to the Upper Deck lawsuit, why isn't the new MTG set with Legends cards manually inserted considered gambling? Wizards isn't just printing cards, they are adding expensive reserve list cards randomly as prizes?
Good question! Perhaps this is evidence that gambling concerns are *not* the reason for the policies around the reserved list after all. Even if they pretend they have nothing to do with the secondary market, it would be hard to explain how inserting a tabernacle isn’t a lottery 🤔
Holy Time Vault!
That’s indeed a beautiful one 😍
Love Reserved List discussions.
Tradition?
What frustrates me about the RL is that they continue to HONOR the PAST but they do not EXPAND it here in the PRESENT. So it's this weird old relic.
If Mark Rosewater is to be believed that the RL will never change, then EMBRACE it!? Seems like an easy way to add value to specific cards.
Why not add 1 card per set or 1-3 cards per year to the list? Print them 1 last time in a premium product or Secret Lair and then retire them.
Reprinting?
Another frustrating part of the RL is the fact they can't make "better" versions of the Reserved List cards. This from a practical perspective is so vague.
Fork & Reverberate are great examples of nearly identical RL reprinting.
Roc of Kher Ridges is a good example of a weird old RL card that got reprinted to a functionally better version.
Values?
I don't think Reserved List matters that much to the value of Alpha cards. If they reprint Word of Command or a functionally better version, is the ALPHA version really going to drop? I doubt it.
But I do think revised RL cards would be impacted (maybe 25-50%?) if reprinted.
Your examples:
Loved Underground Seaweeds haha. They no doubt will go down this path at some point. There are just so many available versions and circumventions of these cards that they can print without messing with Reserved List.
Your crux:
Exactly, Serra Angel, Fork, and Time Vault in Alpha edition are all great examples of why Alpha collectors aren't too worried about the RL fears.
Thanks for that comment, you bring up so many great points. The tradition thing is a strange one… It’s like they want to stay on the fence for some reason, instead of committing one way or the other. They say they’ll stand by it but they make it clear they don’t actually want to. I would be very interested to see what it would look like if they did what you suggested and embraced it!
I don't think they should expand the reserved list in a general sense, but they should be clear and consistent on, for example, showcase cards. Every standard set (and even premium sets these days) has alternate art or showcase frames. For example the "weeb walkers" from War of the Spark, or the Mystical Archive treatment, or the "constellation" frames from Theros 2.
They should be clear that these are collector frames and, should the base card be reprinted, it will have the normal frame. They've already printed some showcase frames in "the List" however.
Another example might be Secret Lair, which is almost entirely reprints with special art or frames. As a collector, it would be great to have a "promise" like in the case of the reserved list that these cards will never be reprinted with this art/these special frames/treatments.
@@meatrace Exactly. Why not formalize that they won't reprint Force of Will Borderless Foil from Double Masters with the same art? My suspicion is that WoTC has no interest in restricting their reprint equity in any form. Everything except Reserved List is on the table.
Yeah, the fact that they kept finding ways to get around the RL shows they could get around it any time they want. pre Zendikar, like he said, when WotC needed a boost in sales, all of a sudden another loophole.
Not entirely sure tho why they even commented on functional or near functional reprints. Why paint yourself into a corner when you don't have to.
WotC(Hasbro) has a legal team likely on retainer and any lawsuit would simply fail and cost the plaintiffs legal costs for nothing.
The RL is WotC's silver bullet. if they ever need to have a great quarter or make up for a bad mistake, what a coincidence, another loophole will be found.
Very nice tsunami!
Ty!
Primer :
step 1-time travel
Step 2:??????????
Step 3 -profit
Step 2- ??????????
Step 1- time travel
Primer:
Easy right?
🤣🤣 brilliant!
Hey Mike, thanks once again for a relaxing episode. Great to hear about the Reserved List, but I simply think there are too many HNW individuals that would harm Hasbro, and that along with the myriad reasons you mentioned make it near-impossible.
I mean, sure there’s a chance, but not one that I think is remotely likely.
Thanks for watching as always 💪 I suspect you are right, and this would keep them away from the big canonical pieces (Underground Seaweed probably never will be). To me the risk increases as we consider how close they might come to “functional reprints” of the second-tier RL stuff, especially if the company faces sustained financial turbulence in the future. IMO they still have enough other options to not need to go there, but with the public information on the topic, I worry that can’t be asserted with the certainty many people give it.
In 2002 when they removed the original uncommons and commons from the list they also added in Ice Age, which for some reason had been skipped initially.
Also of note, of the 10 Judges promos (and one player reward) of reserved list cards, one was done before it was reserved list (Gaea's Cradle). One a year was leaked out for most of 7 years (2003 to 2009 -- though for a couple of those it was zero). In 2010 four were reprinted (two of which were already fairly high value), and that's what sparked the 2010 reserved list crisis. If WotC was going to make a stand that's when they had to do so. The fact they backed down and closed loopholes, strengthening the list, allegedly under potential threats of legal action(s), speaks volumes.
Edit: I forgot about the the other items from 2010 that helped cause the uproar: From the Vault: Relics reprinted 4 more cards, plus there was one from a duel deck. So in 2010 9 cards got reprinted from the reserved list. That's 60 percent of the total that ever came out (again, excluding Gaea's Cradle as it was reprinted before it was on the list).
Oh interesting. I know Ice Age is mentioned specifically in the policy publication in Duelest (link in the description) for "Rare 1" cards, but now that you mention it, they don't itemize Ice Age cards in the actual list on the adjoining page.
@@AlphaHoarder Yup, so even though Ice Age itself was nominally included, none of its cards were. They fixed that in 2002. They also removed Feroz's Ban, which they had on the list but had actually already been reprinted twice.
Beautiful time vault
Primer rules.
Any promissory estoppel case wouldn't be about the average Magic player/collector with some small amount of RL cards in their collection. The case would revolve around three parties, high end collector/investors whose collections are valued in the six or seven + figures, the original artists who own the rights to their art on those cards, and game stores that have invested heavily in RL cards to have in stock. These groups have much more invested in keeping the List in place.
Hasbro doesn't want the negative press. It's merely baggage that came along with WOTC, Hasbro would have no interest in getting involved in such legal issues.
The general public has no idea why they keep the RL for sure, and as such our opinions about it are meaningless. And all leaked info from "people on the inside" is most likely all disinformation.
I know a few high end collectors that are heavily invested in RL cards. These people have basically stated that they've already consulted lawyers about this, and are ready and willing to bring a class action suit if WOTC rescinds the List.
Very good points, and I've heard similar statements too. I personally suspect (as indicated in the video) that WoTC would be on much firmer ground, though. A key condition in an estoppel is the clear expectation that a reasonable person might be expected to rely on the promise. The timeline of events from decades ago seems to remove this foot. But... that may all be irrelevant. If enough well-financed people brought a lawsuit, you could well be right that Hasbro wouldn't want to touch it win or lose, and would settle and/or desist immediately just to stop the noise.
@@AlphaHoarder , chances are that this point WOTC wouldn't lose the case. I agree that the card values would maintain most of their value, and that any lost value would be regained in not too much time. But why stir up the pot. Especially when the Dominaria United collector's boxes alone will generate over 40 million in revenue, if they all sell.
What WOTC could do to quell all this RL buzz, would be to formally take over control of the Commander format and then ban all RL cards. Because not enough people play Legacy or Vintage, and those that do are already invested, for them to matter. It's predominately the Commander crowd clamoring about the RL, ban those cards and the noise stops (well not really, but the volume would be severely reduced). Although then everyone would be all upset about the money they spent on cards that they can no longer use. Ha, ha, ha, WOTC cannot win. Since every move they make is a losing move, not moving is the simplest, safest option.
To be fair given a lot of recent things with the market, I question just how much a reprint of a card will actually damage it. Like take the case of Imperial Seal as of late: it's now readily available to people, they can get it for a pretty penny still but it's still 'reasonable'. There was a lot of speculation that the P3K version would crash in price. It however didn't, if anything it mostly stayed steady and had an extremely short slight dip. Goblin Settler same case, it's getting a Secret Lair reprint but if anything the original rose slightly in price because people weren't aware of it.
Granted these aren't reserve list, but it's still a good example of "just how much would a reprint affect things?" Especially if that reprint isn't in the same frame. Heck even the Chronicles reprinting has done nothing to stop Nicol Bolas from being one of the most expensive cards in Legends.
Excellent point about Imperial Seal and to add to that Concordant Crossroads.
That’s a very good argument. I’m interested to see how the Imperial Seal situation continues to play out. It’s probably necessary to separate the duals into one pile, and almost all the other reserved list cards into another pile. It seems like a decision to reprint from one group verse the other might have very different ramifications.
Spends more in a month on alpha cards than my net worth.
It’s been a very long and very exhausting road … fortunately there are some perks along the way, for which I’m very grateful.
I’m not sure you give enough credit to the old school format for driving up the price of Alpha cards. It wasn’t too long ago that you could buy these Alpha cards for a fraction of the price. I would be more worried about that format failing than the reserve list being abolished.
A good point. I wonder if a more careful analysis of the price movement in, say, Beta as compared to Alpha, would help discover what role Alpha40 is playing in the price increases these last few years.
In any event, I don’t consider the reserved list likely to be abolished, I just don’t like how many people treat it as a commandment from on high. WoTC’s relationship to that reprint policy has been shaky from the start, so I figure it’s worth having this in one’s risk assessment equation, if nothing else.
It’s way easier to print masters sets than it is to violate the reserve list
For sure 👍
Your "Underground Seaweed" card wouldn't break the RL nor would it impact the value of Underground Sea. By being only able to use the mana during your main phase means that it'd be useless for Vintage and Legacy, the fact that you didn't give it the Swamp and Island subtypes means it's not fetchable, so it's just be a lackluster dual in a long line of those. Are you aware of the Battlebond duals? They do not have the basic land types and they come into play untapped if you have more than one opponent. Pretty close to the originals, but nowhere near the value.
Fair enough re: Underground Seaweed. I'm not a player, so I didn't spot those technical issues, but hopefully the example still demonstrates the point. I'm sure you could find a trivial drawback while adding something extra to get a card that's clearly better. Real examples of purely better reprints exist (such as Moonveil Regent vs Roc of Kher Ridges) but I'm not aware of any on such a playable card as a dual land. Also it was fun photoshopping the card text lol.
As for Battlebond duals, I'm not sure off hand which those are, but one problem (and I'm not saying this is true or false, just observing...) is that now that the card exists, we actually can't say if the price of the dual land was impacted. It's possible Revised duals would be worth more than they are today, if such cards had never appeared. It's possible the existence of such card haven't had any impact on the price at all. This is a little stickier to pull apart that it might first appear. However, I suspect such an impact declines as we go from Revised to Unlimited, and on back in time.
Appreciate the comments and the points you raised.
@@AlphaHoarder , Battlebond released June of '18. This was at a time when the RL market was skyrocketing. There was no dip in the value of dual lands. It seemed to me from some of your statements that you might not be a player, and those little technicalities make all the difference in a cards play value, which then translates into its monetary value.
With some jank RL cards it is possible to create strictly better versions, but with dual lands already seen as too powerful, a strictly better version will "never" exist. So to speculate in that direction is simply meaningless.
Moonveil Regent does not break the RL. It's a dragon with a bunch of abilities, not a bird. If it were a bird then it would. All of a cards types are considered when discussing the RL. Eladamri's Call in effect should break the RL, but once again that whole card type thing comes into play. Were Eladamri's Call a Sorcery it would certainly break the RL, but being an Instant, it gets around the restriction.
Reverberate, while seeming to be nothing more than a copy of Fork, is a technically different card. The fact that Fork's copy is red is mechanically relevant to game, likewise the fact that Reverberate's copy maintains its original color is too mechanically relevant. Even if those instances where it would matter are few and far between, it still matters.
I've been arguing about, discussing, debating, and pontificating in online forums, about the RL since at least 2007. There isn't a perspective, point, or thought on the topic that has been hashed and rehash a million times over. It's the same discussion over and over again, just each time with people new to the concept. Like Rosewater said, the sooner we accept it and move on, the happier we can all be. Easy for me to say since I own a lot of the RL.
I appreciate those insights. Your breakdown highlights how it stands at their discretion what constitutes a “functional” re-print versus an adequate distinction.
In any case, in my experience, this is the nature of all long-standing & complicated arguments, no matter the topic, as different nodes enter and exit the hive mind, so to speak. I think there is always value in the rehash and the conversation, even if it’s the millionth time 🙂 I appreciate your humoring me on 1 million and one.
Mark my words, one of these days we will see a black lotus fully reprinted… it will be interesting to see what happens
I definitely don't think that generally speaking, the value in the old reserved list high value cards is their power. Plenty of stuff has come since that players can make as good of or better use of. Their value is their rarity and the nostalgia factor of having the OG versions. To that end, wotc could eliminate the reserved list and reprint Black Lotus - it's not going to make the OG versions drop in value. If anything, I wager it'd increase their value, as players can get their hands on new prints and this drives interest in getting their hands on the originals!
The collectible world of MtG and Pokemon is so interesting in that there are, as you noted, almost two separate interest tracks - the players and the collectors. There's overlap, but it varies.
That’s a really interesting point about driving attention back to the OG. There would be an interesting equilibrium at play there. As someone else mentioned, the current situation with Imperial Seal, although not reserved list, could offer insights into how this might play out. It also depends on the frequency/approach they deployed in re-printing cards.
Even if the Reserve List disappeared tomorrow and there was no lawsuits and drama about it, if you think WotC will reprint Dual Lands or Power 9 ever in a meaningful way you are a fool.
We would be talking about getting a playset of Red Neon Ink Hidetsugus levels of chance to open 1.
There is of course the idea of promissory estoppel but at the same time I believe at some point WOTC will realize there is just more money if they end the reserve list. If they lose 10 million in legal fees and lawsuits I believe the return will be way over that. There is also the argument that a reprint will not affect the value of the old cards which I believe may work in a court setting with people who do not truly understand the game and investment part of it. At the end of the day it just takes a couple people getting in a high position who want it gone. The court case I image would drag on for 2-3 years and unless he judge says don’t reprint during this time they could possibly make the money back from any law suit before the case even ends. The money just seems to great not do at some point.
Yeah all very good points. I happen to think it’s not something they’re looking at right now, but who knows what the future might bring? It worries me when people discount this risk and imagine that the reserved list is carved in marble.
Let's be honest, when people want RL cards what they're really saying is that they want OG Dual Lands.
Most cards on the RL are jank garbage, not worth reprinting. The other cards are in the category of being too powerful for most formats. These cards couldn’t be put into a basic set. So they’d most likely have to put then into a set like Double Masters or a Secret Lair. The reprints would drive prices of these products through the roof.
Just watch what happens to the Dominaria United collector boxes. Those are going to be way more expensive than they ought to be all for the chance of getting one Legends card per case.
So “if” WOTC were to rescind the list it would be in a way for them to maximize profit and any product containing RL cards would not be at consumer friendly prices. They would mostly get bought up by whales anyway.
Rescinding the RL doesn’t mean WOTC will just flood the market with reprints for the masses.
Currently WOTC can make plenty of profit by printing cards that are similar to RL cards, all without the drama, time, and expense of a court case. Court cases involve a lot of financial uncertainty and risk. WOTC is doing just fine without needing to dip into the RL.
There are obviously costs associated with doing business, but no business wants extra, unknown, unnecessary expenditures.
Then there is the problem of optics. It’s amazing how many people believe that WOTC getting rid of the RL would be a sign that the company is failing. Not an image they’d want to project.
Now as to a lawsuit, a judge and jury have no need to understand Magic the Gathering, no need to understand the vagueries of the collectables markets or anything like that. All a judge and jury need to understand is that party A made financial decisions based upon a promise that party B made. If party B breaks that promise and there COULD be financial implications, then party B is at fault. End of story. It doesn't what happens in the long run, what matters is, at the time of trial, is that financial collapse could happen.
A large and unwritten and unspoken aspect of why WOTC keeps the RL in place is to protect the values of the art on those cards. Early artists got paid in royalties, meaning that the artists own the rights to that artwork. By keeping the RL in place the value of those pieces of art is kept in place for those artists.
@@deeterful Great point about the fact breaking the list isn't the same as flooding the market. It would be the height of stupidity for them to release, say, "Reserved List Masters" and dump them all at once. It would be 1 big hit a year kind of thing, allowing them to span years. And also a good point about the art work. I've heard mumbling about that as well, though I couldn't pin it to a source I could cite for the video. In any case, they could do a reprint with different art if that was the main tripwire they were avoiding. Seems to go back to what I lamented in the video... we don't actually know what their guardrails are, so it's very hard to understand what they might or might not be willing to do. Appreciate the thoughtful comment.
@@AlphaHoarder , I imagine that the list of reasons they have to keep the list in place includes all the things you've stated plus a few I did as well. I'm sure it's not a single, simple reason.
If the reason about artist's royalties and card value traces it's origin to Chronicles, then a reprint of those cards with differing art could be construed as WOTC dipping into the artist's income streams. One of the ways WOTC "paid" the early artist along with royalties was with sealed product. In essence any value the cards gained would be the ability for the artists to sell their cards in the future. So it behooves those artists that their cards earn and maintain the highest market value. Imagine the fear that the price crash Chronicles created in those artists. Having an asset accrue a fairly descent value, which you were counting on, suddenly plummet. I couldn't care less about the people who bought cards and then the values changed. Collectables are like the stock market, easy come, easy go. But for the artists this was akin to losing their 401K. Now at this time, with the value of those old, original prints, the market is safe from reprints devaluing them, but someone must still have shell shock from Chronicles.
That’s the clearest explanation I’ve ever heard about the artist portion of the equation. Thanks for explaining it!
An interesting exercise, for those so inclined, is to consider the magnitude of the costs involved in reprinting just the dual lands. Alpha, Beta, and to a certain extent Unlimited versions wouldn't be affected much (though they would be affected). But Revised versions would absolutely tank, and everyone knows and no one denies this. Start doing the math and you realize the potential amount of money involved is staggering -- large enough where Hasbro as we know it might be put in jeopardy. Regardless of how you think the case would go, there's no way Hasbro runs that risk, especially since the whole of the reserved list would get dragged in at that point.
Very true. Even a small % impact across all dual lands in circulation would be monstrous. Assuming there is any legal standing for the estoppel. It doesn’t seem like something they would need to play with unless things were going very poorly
Revised duals might take a dip for a moment, but if new ones were printed, it wouldn't be in enough volume to meet demand, if we are to look at how they currently curate higher value reprints as any indicator of how they would go about it.
Also, any significant dip in the price of Revised duals would start a buying frenzy in the Old School 93/94 community. And once that happens prices go back up. There are no small number of folk who prefer original printings, and for many, Revised is original enough.
revised editions would not "absolutely tank". the value has nothing to do with how many legal copies of a card are in circulation, but how many original copies are. anyone that would suddenly let go of copies at a fraction of what the current value is, doesn't have those cards to begin with.
Wait til someone tells this guy about reverberate
Beautiful cards as always. Jayemdae Tome! Time Vault!! 🤩
Nice discussion on the RL. I think if anything they should start adding a handful of cards to the list every year, starting with Mercadian Masques and then moving forward. Shouldnt be all the bangers in a set, but would be nice for newer players to buy cards that retain value.
Yeah, this sounds like an intriguing idea.
Honestly to continue this line of thinking. I think it should rotate. Every 10 years cards come off and onto the list. Cards of high demand by players are taken off and printed in a core set then put back onto the list once that core set rotates out of standard. Hell this can even be used to work with lore, for example. Nicol Bolas. All versions prior to his imprisonment are reserved and nicol when he returns has to start from scratch. None of his old powers can return for his new cards. And his old cards only return in special sets during major anniversaries.
The 10 years thing being that the cards have to be that old minimum to gain a place on the list
I believe that the entirety of the wizards team and finances is very formidable - however, you completely underestimate who are the people that own these cards -- Woz, Post Malone now funny enough, super geniuses that are now hedge fund owners like Jon Finkel. These legends net worths combined are bigger than or close to Hasbro and have an insane number of super geniuses - and honestly, if they combined forces would make the entirety of Hasbro, a multi billion dollar company, look only meh. Also, all of these super geniuses that have these insane reserved lists cards also happen to be pretty damn good friends with all the people that work at Wizards on top of all the possible legal and insane smashings these geniuses would do to Wizards. Simply put - a crazy amount of the smartest people I have ever met in my life and honestly smartest people in the world own this stuff, you dont want to mess with them.
It’s one of those things that there’s no way to measure beyond anecdotal accounts, but it would be interesting to know to what extent the worlds largest collectors are “extended family” to the Hasbro executives. I’d also really like to know what the exposure of some of these people you mentioned is, compared to their net worth. That would give us insight into how much they would throw behind an issue like this, if push came to shove.
@@AlphaHoarder , you are correct in that all the stories are just anecdotes, but in law, unlike science, enough anecdotes can be weighed as evidence.
@@AlphaHoarder I am currently at about a 75 percent exposure rate to collectibles ( scary at 39 years old, I know, im a part of the psycho group lol ) and some of these folks have a lot: original art of key pieces, stacks of old boxes, etc. and honestly I think at this point other than the billionaires like Woz it might be more exposure than you think, more than 10 percent, etc. I think a lot of the largest collectors are "extended family", say, idk something crazy like 1/2? Just a guess but mentally putting the pieces together of a general who has what seems about right ( I kept editing the extended family part lol man maybe its only about 1/3 that one is very tough as I was good friends with many old schoolers, but sometimes we were just acquaintances and have not kept up over the years )
They have much more to lose than to win from breaking the list. It’s also great marketing for the brand that there are such expensive cards.
Those first Sea reprints you show are all worse than the original, nobody would play those instead of Sea. What did change the amount of dual lands needed per deck is fetchlands.
I tend to agree. I think it’s less certain than some people believe, but that’s not to say it’s likely or even probable.
As to the second part, I’m not a player and someone pointed out my version isn’t fetch-able. Let’s just pretend mine was oracle’d in the same manner as the original lol.