One has to remember that Beethoven lived in the era of wooden harped pianos. These evolved out of the harpsichord. All had low tension brass and iron strings and were struck with small low mass hammers. High tension metal harped pianos didn't come in to being until 1826 (Babcock). Later improvements include double excapement (Erard,1828) , one piece laminated case (Steinway,1855) , and one piece felt hammer (Dolge, 1911). All these gave us the modern piano. It is truly a product of the Industrial Revolution. Ruxandra's piano looks to be a Viennese fortepiano of about 1795 or so. It has very good touch and resonance. Beethoven's last piano was a Conrad Graff of 1826 and was still of all-wood construction.
You can hear everything! All of it! So much being said. Different voices, and you can tell them apart. Listen to them talk to each other. So wonderful!
This is one of the best things on UA-cam. Music that lives and breathes. I wish there was more from this artist, and more Beethoven on fortepiano in general.
This is an outstanding performance!! Please, do not underestimate the power of Beethoven, the great! He was extreme because of his power in music, who cares if he had broke the keyboard strings many times. That was part of his personality which we can still be able to see until now & perhaps until forever through the music alone. We shall always remember who he was & never forget it, this is the reason why almost the whole Vienna stood up on foot when the news was heard about his death, about 20,000 attended his funeral, & even the army services were halted due to the respect of his art even though they all knew he was a very nasty person, but his soul was not! It is only the world against him made him become so much in this way. Please excuse him, he was able to even do so much more while still disabled, how much temper do you think that he could withstand? Think about it, a Deaf Musician!! Yet It’s unbelievable the way he would be treated because of his cruelty, could you all not give him some peace of respect for what he is able to do for humanity even though with major struggles? Only when he could of died that’s when all of a sudden the world has realized what they’d lost sadly.
Wow..just wow....this fortepiano sounds fantastic! An astounding performance of the Allegretto of the Tempest- passionate, fiery and deeply affecting..you can't get this effect in the same way on a modern piano- those deep bass notes boom with such resonance and raw emotion.
This gives a very different feeling to Sforzando and other dynamic techniques. It seems to me Beethoven was as interested in the dynamics as he was in the color changes, what a lovely instrument the fortepiano is. This limitation is honestly a strength on its own, to have an instrument that can offer such great richness in timbre ... Thank you for sharing this delicious performance
Fantastique performance ! Chaque note ressort avec une précision stupéfiante. On se retrouve transporté dans le salon de Ludwig, a écouter le grand maître en direct!
These sonatas first entered my life in the 1990's. Beethoven's repretoire is SO BIG I almost forgot about these sonatas - especially Opus 31 no. 1. It seems Beethoven set the mood to open this trio of sonatas with avante garde tonality and rhythm that must of terrified first listeners. This sonata is right up there with any of Beethoven's major sonatas; and what a performance!!!!
like Maria Joao Pires in one interview said...It is pure music,detached from struggle for intonation and tonal opulence of modern piano...It is very nice and inspiring...
Sometimes I am really glad I am not a musician or an "expert". That way I can just enjoy the music without overthinking or over analyzing everything. ;)
@@marcussfebruary9104 I don't know. Mind you its the same as listening to the same song for 3 months on end it gets drab same with playing I suppose :) , But you can always revisit years later and enjoy it like you did the first time :)
I'm a trained musician and I enjoy listening to music and the experience of it as well as the playing with ideas and colors. I don't see the problem. I don't see why not knowing about something is preferable, unless you're not accounting for the quality (technical and human) of such education, some music education (or otherwise) lack sufficient human quality, that can be a detriment for... being human with the knowledge? Haha, I guess.
Meglio dei pianoforti moderni che con Bechstein hanno concluso l'epoca romantica piena in cui gli strumenti sono stati potenziati nel volume di suono ma, non nella qualità espressiva e nella varietà timbrica, allontanandosi dal generare i suoni e dunque da un concertismo lisztiano esibizionista per platee poco colte. Ruxandra Oancea, complimenti vivissimi!
This performance of the “Tempest”. shows how modern and experimental it is. It occurs to me that it’s a development of similar ideas in the “Pathetique”. And this performance of No.18 really shows how much humor there is in Beethoven.
Super interpretation! Ce genre d’instrument exige une tres grande precision dans l’attaque et beaucoup de subtilité de la part du pianiste !Felicitations
the fortepiano was a percussion instrumen,when you play a key the lever will let the jack be smashed by the hammerhead ,then tunes the strings in a sharp minor
Thanks a lot for this post. I just love this set of sonatas, and I hope I can play them someday. Your music vision, where musical ideas, passion and musicality are first class values, are inspiring. How hard it was to extract beautiful sounds of this dinosaur? I mean, you did a superb job, creating contrast from such an ancient instrument.
One thing I find interesting about this is how much pedal she is using, and how much it would sound horrible and muddy on a modern piano, but sounds very nice here.
Beethoven used a lot of pedal funny enough. Moonlight sonata was originally intended to be played with the pedal depressed throughout the 1st movement since the pedal didn't sustain as much.
Hi Thomas. Becuse I am prevented from commenting in Wim Wintrs’ videos, I have to borrow pther people’s videos. AithenticSound: «What if. . . Chopin intended his Etude to sound like THIS???» Thomas, quote: «This is exactly what Chopin had in mind!» Simple logic tells us that your claim cannot be correct. Wim Winter’s playing time for opus 10 no 1, is 3:34, a pace he, and you, think is historically accurate. Here at UA-cam, we find kids playing the etude much faster than Wim Winters. Chopin was about 20 years old when the etude was composed. Maxim Gobulev, 12? years old: duration 2:00. Michael A. Hearinger age 13: duration 1:51. Haochen Zhang, 11 years old: duration 1:57. Chopin had 8-10 more years to reach a high level of technical play, and you think Chopin played muh slower than kids! We find several videos with kids playing Chopin’s etudes much faster than whole beat tempo, kids from 7-12 years old!
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 My rebuttal against Whole Beat Metronome Principle arguments ... Find the error(s) in my treatise. If you find none, our discussion is over because "no one can account for tastes"; however, "in science, it either is, or it is not". Be well! Dear @geiryvindeskeland7208, “Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.” - Sun Tzu, The Art of War I allowed you to save face, and you have chosen to fight a losing battle. I am truly sorry that I must do this. This is not for you because you will not be able to grasp what I will write in my following lines; it is for those who will read after I have crushed you the truth of the issue at hand. Music has only two faces like Janus. The first, and probably the most human, is the "pathétique" or the "moving, stirring, or affecting", which enters English in the 16th century from French. Now obsolete, it is the best description what music does to our emotions. The second is the scientific, which was the fourth and final course of the Quadrivium that was required to become a Licentiate or Teacher. I suggested that "tastes are up to the individual", and you rejected that argument; therefore, science is the only face I have left to discuss, and since it is utterly objective, we shall have an epic battle on this last and now only remaining front. I need only to demonstrate how time is defined related to the pendulum and mathematical laws, which is the premise for this Chopin Etude being played as such by Wim Winters. What follows will be indisputible. In the 16th century (1581 to be exact), Galileo saw a chandelier swinging and noted that it possessed certain properties, namely, that it had a "time" aspect. This is his discovery of the pendulum. This timing was invariable if the length of remained constant. He found that the length of the pendulum was proportional to its time period. The longer the length, the longer the time period, a direct proportion. In order to form an equation from a proportion, a constant is required. To find the constant, we need to write the proportion with empirical values. In the case of the pendulum, we set up the following fomula: T = X (L/g)^0.5. "The time period in seconds is equal to the square root of the quantity of the length in metres divided by the acceleration of gravity". We replace our variables except the constant "X". 2 = X (L/g)^0.5m which give us the value of 2 PI radians. Now our equation is: T = 2 PI (L/g)^0.5. "The time period in seconds is equal to two times Pi times the square root of the quantity of the length in metres divided by the acceleration of gravity". Now I have proven the time period via Galileo's original proportion. Let's cut to the 19th century when Maelzel invents the mechanical Metronome, which he promoted via and explained to L. van Beethoven. Maelzel was an engineer, and he built several machines. This was a variable-centre physical pendulum. The centre was adjusted by means of a moveable nut at the top of the pendulum, which changed the centre of gravity allowing this physical pendulum to move faster or slower. I have built several myself. Fun really, you should try it! Maelzel took our formula, which I have empirically proved above and divded the time period into 120 to arrive at beats per minute instead of the normal revolutions per minute using the 2 PI constant. Since 120 beats per minute equals a time period of one second, the formula is still accurate to the time period regardless of the "units" used. The musicians of the day knew this, and were able to align and test their Metronomes to the pendulum clocks of the day. Most were built with an escapement that used "the seconds pendulum", which beat 30 times per minute with a time period of twon seconds each 2 PI. At this point, I hope I have not lost you because if I have, you are quite out of your lane discussing science, and you should have accepted my kind offer to leave my milennials-old saying in place, which you rejected. Sorry again ... truly. Now let's discuss Chopin and two editors who used Metronome markings for this etude in question. Kullak and Fontana both chose to say that the time period of a quarter note is equal to 176 beats per minute. One hundred seventy-six beats per minute is equal to about 0.71 seconds, which means that each measure is equal to about 2.8 seconds or exactly 21 and a quarter measures per minute. Wim's short is close to a minute, and if you will follow along with your score, you will find that Wim played very close to 21.25 measures per minute, which is exactly how both Kullak and Fontana suggested via their Metronome numbers that this piece be played. It must be stated that if ridiculous, uneducated musicians who know nothing of the science of music or of exegesis in order to "play like charlatans" (in Liszt's words) chose to play pieces twice as fast as the editors Kullak and Fontana noted, that's their - and YOUR - problem, not the objective science's. So, you have refused to accept a diplomatic solution to allow each individual to follow his sense of the musical "pathétique", which is utterly subjective and quite acceptable as each has his own opinion; however, you have now been firmly defeated in science, which is the face of music you cannot defeat and is indisputable. I had to simply prove the time period that a pendulum shows, and apply it correctly to the music as Kullak and Fontana had done, and your "beliefs" in the interpretation of the Metronome fall apart. Good luck in your future indeavours; I wish you well. Warm regards, Tom
Thomas. First, I want to apologize for my many annoying typos in my first post. But you didn’t succeed in answering my challenge: Is it logical that children, 7-12 years old play Chopin’s etudes much faster than the adult Chopin himself? We need no knowlegde of the pendulum, only the ability of elementary logical thinking.
@@geiryvindeskeland7208 Dear Geir, First, you are not my audience. I don't waste time writing, reviewing, learning, and researching for people who don't know the difference between science and tastes. Second, and this is for you: You do not qualify a person's musical abiity on his athleticism. I understood your point, and I indeed answered it: "There is no accounting for tastes". Put another way, I would prefer to hear music, not see a sporting event. You suggest that "virtuosity" is a matter of "velocity". Fine. Understood. Disagreed. "Tastes ..." Third, when reconstructing an historical work of art, be it visual, auditory, &c., it is of paramount importance in its interpretation to return to the source to get a better understanding of said work.To do this, a prerequisite understanding of "tempo ... changes everything" is required, and to that end, the genesis of the "tempo machine" that these ancients used to mark the tempo of the music is required. Science is elementary ("my Dear Watson") and quite logical; there is no logic or defence of "tastes". Putting it frankly, "Opinions are like a**holes, and their full of sh*t". Finally, you have done nothing but make suggestions that someone played too fast or too slow. You have based this on nothing but your own personal "opinion" (see above, which again is all that your opinion is worth). You have also suggested that anyone who plays fast - instead of musically - must be some "7-12" year-old child. I actually agree with you: Only a 7-12-year-old child would consider the idea that playing fast is more virtuosic than playing musically. We agree here for sure! These are opinions; these are tastes; they are not scientific or historical on your part. These two educative disciplines (exegesis and science) must be employed when attempting to recreate how these ancients must have played. Be well, Geir.
@@thomashughes4859 Without trying to detract from your learning, I just point out that a pendulum has a measurable half period as well as a full period, and it is beyond doubt that metronome marks refer to the half period. A metronome set to 60 ticks 60 times a minute, once for every half period of the pendulum swing. Many contemporary sources state clearly that crotchet = 60 MM means that 60 crotchets (i.e. the value of a crotchet) are played in a minute - or one a second. I'm glad, however, that you appreciated Ruxandra Oancea's playing (as I do). If she is thinking at all about the later MM marks given by Czerny, Moscheles, and others, she is certainly following the half period, single tick, interpretation.
Poor Mr Rossi! Beethoven's pupil Czerny tells us that the master was noticeably deaf by 1811 and profoundly deaf by 1814. That means that the Broadwood fortepiano sent to him in 1817 and the Graf lent to him in 1826 would not have been heard by him. What instrument did Beethoven hear in his imagination then? The last instrument he owned before deafness overtook him was by Streicher or Pleyel [1808]. Neither were "modern" pianos in our sense of the term, since the instrument we know didn't exist before about 1870, forty years after Beethoven's death. The instrument played here is typical of those Viennese instruments for which Beethoven wrote his piano works. Schubert, Haydn, Chopin and Mozart didn't have modern pianos either. That we play them on our instrument makes those performances, regardless of how wonderful something of an anachronism. Please get over it.
He still had days where he could hear enough even into 1820s. The late piano sonatas were clearly written for an instrument much closer to the modern piano, he probably envisioned an instrument more akin to our pianos anyways...he was very satisfied with his Broadwood
anachreon01 Ever heard of bone conduction? After Beethoven went completely deaf, he still was able to “hear” through his jawbone using a metal rod, which he attached one end to the piano, and bit down the other end. So he could hear some of his music. He didn’t just “imagine things”
anachreon01 and btw, the modern piano is developed from the fortepiano you are hearing in this video. Obviously they aren’t the same, but some elements, especially the idea of “piano” and “forte” was inherited by the modern piano.
The simple act of performing a piece written centuries ago is an anachronism. We don't know for sure how the interpreters of the time would have sounded either.
I want to make this style of piano but as an upright piano with two harps. I think it would be nice and easy to move. It would probably also be easier to find a spot for it in a small home.
Magnificent instrument (Graf copy?) and performance. Once again, it illustrates how Beethoven comes alive when played on a pre-iron-framed instrument. And on an early Viennese, as here, it's pretty well as Beethoven would have envisaged it. Thanks for posting. Regards, P.
In her speech (via my bad french :), she said something like "unknown maker, copy of Anton Walter 1795". I like the sound of piano-forte for classical era sonatas. On modern piano they sound okay, but a bit muddy and boomy. Just my taste, not saying it is right or wrong.
fantastico. il forte piano permette alla pianista, che non conoscevo ma è straordinaria, di far sentire perfettamente tutto il fraseggio e il senso delle parti che costruiscono i diversi momenti delle sonate. il pianoforte forse, mi viene da pensare, non è proprio adatto ad esprimere l'emotività e la sensibilità musicale della musica del 700 e dell'800,, fino ad almeno chopin se non debussy. Ruxandra eccezionale,
Per favore...anyone that can take us into the Beethoven genius is to be thanked. Of course the same could be said for the Bachs, Papa Haydn and all those from music who widen our conception of aeonian travelogues. These people at best can be guides to his monumental stature amongst our giants. Have you an academic argument regarding the machine or the machinist, be gentle for the vast majority remain cliched as works in progress, a natural function of imperfection. Ah, the Maestro! Allegro con brio!
Wunderschön! Ich mag sehr den silbrigen, obertonreichen Klang der alten Hammerklaviere, viel lieber als die modernen Flügel, die für mein Ohr schrecklich dumpf und tot klingen.
It took me a while to find this after trawling through other videos trying to find one that wasn't broken up with intrusive advertizing. Now I have arrived I am glad I came and I imagine this is how the sonatas would have sounded in the composer's day. Having said that, it would still sound better on a grand piano!
Bravo de jouer Beethoven sur un instrument qu'il a connu (même si celui ci est une copie). le STEINWAY D274 n'existait pas à l'époque et tout le monde joue les sonates dessus. hérésie!
She uses the "pedals" a lot here. If the sheet music calls for this pedal or that, does that apply as well to modern piano? Is the music altered to be playable on new piano?
***** How the modest inaccuracy in my first sentence ascends to the level of "knee-slapping joke" escapes me. Perhaps Alfred Alder can explain. In any case, Ms. Oancea clearly is controlling dampers with a right knee lever. For example, at around 3:52, she draws back her right leg suddenly to drop the dampers onto the strings.
Me da la sensación de que si la pianista tocara el fortepiano como quieren algunos aquí abajo (de manera que no suene percusivo, "que no es un piano", como si tuviera miedo de hacerle daño al instrumento...), las sonatas sonarían muy correctas, pero bastante descafeinadas y sosas. A mí me parece preferible escucharlas "aporreadas" en un piano moderno que perder tiempo en escuchar semejante plomo cuidadoso y correcto sobre un instrumento de época. Por suerte, la pianista aquí no ha tenido ese criterio y creo que le ha sabido sacar partido al instrumento (que si tiene que sonar metálico, sonará metálico ¿y qué?)
Of course. Basically fortepiano has no foot pedals. But it has knee pedals, hid under its keyboard. You must learn about fortepiano, by yourself, more and more!!
Too forceful playing for this instrument IMHO. Sound becomes too thin and sharp, and fades away too fast, doesnt sustain as it should especially in high register of the instrument.
Dear pidekarr, I'm afraid you're missing the point. The differences in sound of the earlier instrument from the modern are all part of its charm. True, it doesn't sustain very long in the upper register, and the sound becomes more percussive as the volume increases. But, that's all part of the deal. The later modern instrument is designed for greater power and sustain, but there is a trade-off. The greater variety of tonal colors in the early instrument is sacrificed. The modern instrument does not change much in tone with variation of volume. I don't have a preference in this repertoire. Both types have their good qualities. Of course, the instrument we are hearing here would not do for Scriabin or Debussy. Nor would I want to be without the wonderful interpretations of the great players of the modern piano. All styles have their good qualities, and I for one, would not like to lose any of them. I hope all this verbosity is helpful in some way. Take care, and enjoy.
It's also worth noting that Beethoven himself was noted to play the fortepiano so hard that he would actually sometimes break the strings. By that standard, Oancea is being downright gentle.
Dear Jack. I am not talking about specifics of the instrument, but about playing itself. This is a common problem for a modern pianist, who are trained on this loud and heavy steinways. Most of them lose sensibility, both in fingers and in hearing so when one approaches historical instruments, he/she needs time to "switch" , get off from bad habits and heavy modern technique.
One has to remember that Beethoven lived in the era of wooden harped pianos. These evolved out of the harpsichord. All had low tension brass and iron strings and were struck with small low mass hammers. High tension metal harped pianos didn't come in to being until 1826 (Babcock). Later improvements include double excapement (Erard,1828) , one piece laminated case (Steinway,1855) , and one piece felt hammer (Dolge, 1911). All these gave us the modern piano. It is truly a product of the Industrial Revolution. Ruxandra's piano looks to be a Viennese fortepiano of about 1795 or so. It has very good touch and resonance. Beethoven's last piano was a Conrad Graff of 1826 and was still of all-wood construction.
fnersch q
No pedals? Huh? Lovely sound and great performance.
Thank you. Very interesting. (I was under the impression that Beethoven's last instrument was a Broadwood. )
The pedal is pushed upward with the knee. If you tap your toes when playing it is easy to adapt.
HANKS SIR FOR THE INFORMATION!!!
Opus 31: (No's 16-18)
No.1 (G major) - 2:55
No.2 (D minor) - 28:00
No.3 (Eb major) - 51:18
Thank you for your kindness.
You can hear everything! All of it! So much being said. Different voices, and you can tell them apart. Listen to them talk to each other. So wonderful!
This is one of the best things on UA-cam. Music that lives and breathes.
I wish there was more from this artist, and more Beethoven on fortepiano in general.
This is an outstanding performance!! Please, do not underestimate the power of Beethoven, the great! He was extreme because of his power in music, who cares if he had broke the keyboard strings many times. That was part of his personality which we can still be able to see until now & perhaps until forever through the music alone. We shall always remember who he was & never forget it, this is the reason why almost the whole Vienna stood up on foot when the news was heard about his death, about 20,000 attended his funeral, & even the army services were halted due to the respect of his art even though they all knew he was a very nasty person, but his soul was not! It is only the world against him made him become so much in this way. Please excuse him, he was able to even do so much more while still disabled, how much temper do you think that he could withstand? Think about it, a Deaf Musician!! Yet It’s unbelievable the way he would be treated because of his cruelty, could you all not give him some peace of respect for what he is able to do for humanity even though with major struggles? Only when he could of died that’s when all of a sudden the world has realized what they’d lost sadly.
Wow..just wow....this fortepiano sounds fantastic! An astounding performance of the Allegretto of the Tempest- passionate, fiery and deeply affecting..you can't get this effect in the same way on a modern piano- those deep bass notes boom with such resonance and raw emotion.
Outstanding performance!
Bach and Beethoven never get dated - their music is always fresh!
This gives a very different feeling to Sforzando and other dynamic techniques. It seems to me Beethoven was as interested in the dynamics as he was in the color changes, what a lovely instrument the fortepiano is. This limitation is honestly a strength on its own, to have an instrument that can offer such great richness in timbre ... Thank you for sharing this delicious performance
Fantastique performance ! Chaque note ressort avec une précision stupéfiante. On se retrouve transporté dans le salon de Ludwig, a écouter le grand maître en direct!
These sonatas first entered my life in the 1990's. Beethoven's repretoire is SO BIG I almost forgot about these sonatas - especially Opus 31 no. 1. It seems Beethoven set the mood to open this trio of sonatas with avante garde tonality and rhythm that must of terrified first listeners. This sonata is right up there with any of Beethoven's major sonatas; and what a performance!!!!
I liked the experience of hearing the fortepiano. Thank you.
like Maria Joao Pires in one interview said...It is pure music,detached from struggle for intonation and tonal opulence of modern piano...It is very nice and inspiring...
Her phrasing is confident and flawless!! Amazing performance.
A supreme artist. Magnificent and humbling to witness this wonderful performance.
J'ai redécouvert avec un immense plaisir la sonate Op.31 numéro 1...superbe interprètation .
J'adore les nuances de ce pianoforte !
Dear Ruxandra Oancea, Please upload more of your music making. I think you are marvelous! I love your husband's playing as well.
Very nice, Ruxandra! Your technique and musicality are perfect.
Superbe performance sur toute la ligne!! Merci de nous la partager!
thats how i like my beethoven
Fantastic performance.
Thank you so much for posting !
Sometimes I am really glad I am not a musician or an "expert". That way I can just enjoy the music without overthinking or over analyzing everything. ;)
Sometimes we musicians truly forget to simply just enjoy the music and be completely taken up by it.
@@marcussfebruary9104 I don't know. Mind you its the same as listening to the same song for 3 months on end it gets drab same with playing I suppose :) , But you can always revisit years later and enjoy it like you did the first time :)
I'm a trained musician and I enjoy listening to music and the experience of it as well as the playing with ideas and colors. I don't see the problem. I don't see why not knowing about something is preferable, unless you're not accounting for the quality (technical and human) of such education, some music education (or otherwise) lack sufficient human quality, that can be a detriment for... being human with the knowledge? Haha, I guess.
Most professors and professional performers I know act as if they hate music. Their attitudes are pathetic.
MAGNIFIQUE!!!!!THANKS for posting RUXANDRA. BEST WISHES!!!!
Meglio dei pianoforti moderni che con Bechstein hanno concluso l'epoca romantica piena in cui gli strumenti sono stati potenziati nel volume di suono ma, non nella qualità espressiva e nella varietà timbrica, allontanandosi dal generare i suoni e dunque da un concertismo lisztiano esibizionista per platee poco colte. Ruxandra Oancea, complimenti vivissimi!
11:45 these dissonances are incredible!
oui
Bravo, felicitari!
So precious. Thank you so much. I had a wonderful time.
This performance of the “Tempest”. shows how modern and experimental it is. It occurs to me that it’s a development of similar ideas in the “Pathetique”. And this performance of No.18 really shows how much humor there is in Beethoven.
素晴らしい！ ピアノフォルテで聞くテンペストは、初めてであるが、何とも素晴らしい。
quelle belle interpretation! vous avez fait un tres bon travail. Bravo. Beethoven est un des mes compositeurs favoris. Sa musique me parle.
Me too
what a beautiful piano
muy buena interprete y grandes sonatas de beethoven
Wonderful...Thank you !!
Super interpretation! Ce genre d’instrument exige une tres grande precision dans l’attaque et beaucoup de subtilité de la part du pianiste !Felicitations
the fortepiano was a percussion instrumen,when you play a key the lever will let the jack be smashed by the hammerhead ,then tunes the strings in a sharp minor
Amazing!
We have to love, her love of Beethoven...
Amazing!!
Wonderful music. I hope this gal has continued.
Je trouve cette version remarquablement belle . . . Bravo !
Impressive and audacious
Thanks a lot for this post. I just love this set of sonatas, and I hope I can play them someday. Your music vision, where musical ideas, passion and musicality are first class values, are inspiring. How hard it was to extract beautiful sounds of this dinosaur? I mean, you did a superb job, creating contrast from such an ancient instrument.
One thing I find interesting about this is how much pedal she is using, and how much it would sound horrible and muddy on a modern piano, but sounds very nice here.
Beethoven used a lot of pedal funny enough. Moonlight sonata was originally intended to be played with the pedal depressed throughout the 1st movement since the pedal didn't sustain as much.
Yes, but where are the pedals (tho)?
@@OscarGeronimo it's a pedal activated by the knee
Found them. Totally forgot about the mechanism in the knee for a moment -__-'
@@OscarGeronimo No pedals, but levers instead.
This is great. Love the sound and interpretations. Perhaps you could do some more- Sonatas 5,6,7. perhaps?
6:13 is my favorite part. Sounds like a sequence Mozart would use. (perhaps in a fantasy or sonata)
Well, this is classical Beethoven, not romantic.
It is a baroque chord progression, circle of 5ths
excellent performance. Brava.
Brava! Ruxandra! Thank you for sharing!
Hi Thomas. Becuse I am prevented from commenting in Wim Wintrs’ videos, I have to borrow pther people’s videos. AithenticSound: «What if. . . Chopin intended his Etude to sound like THIS???» Thomas, quote: «This is exactly what Chopin had in mind!»
Simple logic tells us that your claim cannot be correct. Wim Winter’s playing time for opus 10 no 1, is 3:34, a pace he, and you, think is historically accurate. Here at UA-cam, we find kids playing the etude much faster than Wim Winters. Chopin was about 20 years old when the etude was composed. Maxim Gobulev, 12? years old: duration 2:00. Michael A. Hearinger age 13: duration 1:51. Haochen Zhang, 11 years old: duration 1:57. Chopin had 8-10 more years to reach a high level of technical play, and you think Chopin played muh slower than kids!
We find several videos with kids playing Chopin’s etudes much faster than whole beat tempo, kids from 7-12 years old!
@@geiryvindeskeland7208
My rebuttal against Whole Beat Metronome Principle arguments ...
Find the error(s) in my treatise. If you find none, our discussion is over because "no one can account for tastes"; however, "in science, it either is, or it is not". Be well!
Dear @geiryvindeskeland7208,
“Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.” - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I allowed you to save face, and you have chosen to fight a losing battle. I am truly sorry that I must do this. This is not for you because you will not be able to grasp what I will write in my following lines; it is for those who will read after I have crushed you the truth of the issue at hand.
Music has only two faces like Janus. The first, and probably the most human, is the "pathétique" or the "moving, stirring, or affecting", which enters English in the 16th century from French. Now obsolete, it is the best description what music does to our emotions. The second is the scientific, which was the fourth and final course of the Quadrivium that was required to become a Licentiate or Teacher.
I suggested that "tastes are up to the individual", and you rejected that argument; therefore, science is the only face I have left to discuss, and since it is utterly objective, we shall have an epic battle on this last and now only remaining front.
I need only to demonstrate how time is defined related to the pendulum and mathematical laws, which is the premise for this Chopin Etude being played as such by Wim Winters. What follows will be indisputible.
In the 16th century (1581 to be exact), Galileo saw a chandelier swinging and noted that it possessed certain properties, namely, that it had a "time" aspect. This is his discovery of the pendulum. This timing was invariable if the length of remained constant. He found that the length of the pendulum was proportional to its time period. The longer the length, the longer the time period, a direct proportion.
In order to form an equation from a proportion, a constant is required. To find the constant, we need to write the proportion with empirical values. In the case of the pendulum, we set up the following fomula:
T = X (L/g)^0.5. "The time period in seconds is equal to the square root of the quantity of the length in metres divided by the acceleration of gravity".
We replace our variables except the constant "X".
2 = X (L/g)^0.5m which give us the value of 2 PI radians.
Now our equation is: T = 2 PI (L/g)^0.5. "The time period in seconds is equal to two times Pi times the square root of the quantity of the length in metres divided by the acceleration of gravity".
Now I have proven the time period via Galileo's original proportion.
Let's cut to the 19th century when Maelzel invents the mechanical Metronome, which he promoted via and explained to L. van Beethoven. Maelzel was an engineer, and he built several machines. This was a variable-centre physical pendulum. The centre was adjusted by means of a moveable nut at the top of the pendulum, which changed the centre of gravity allowing this physical pendulum to move faster or slower. I have built several myself. Fun really, you should try it! Maelzel took our formula, which I have empirically proved above and divded the time period into 120 to arrive at beats per minute instead of the normal revolutions per minute using the 2 PI constant. Since 120 beats per minute equals a time period of one second, the formula is still accurate to the time period regardless of the "units" used.
The musicians of the day knew this, and were able to align and test their Metronomes to the pendulum clocks of the day. Most were built with an escapement that used "the seconds pendulum", which beat 30 times per minute with a time period of twon seconds each 2 PI.
At this point, I hope I have not lost you because if I have, you are quite out of your lane discussing science, and you should have accepted my kind offer to leave my milennials-old saying in place, which you rejected. Sorry again ... truly.
Now let's discuss Chopin and two editors who used Metronome markings for this etude in question. Kullak and Fontana both chose to say that the time period of a quarter note is equal to 176 beats per minute. One hundred seventy-six beats per minute is equal to about 0.71 seconds, which means that each measure is equal to about 2.8 seconds or exactly 21 and a quarter measures per minute. Wim's short is close to a minute, and if you will follow along with your score, you will find that Wim played very close to 21.25 measures per minute, which is exactly how both Kullak and Fontana suggested via their Metronome numbers that this piece be played.
It must be stated that if ridiculous, uneducated musicians who know nothing of the science of music or of exegesis in order to "play like charlatans" (in Liszt's words) chose to play pieces twice as fast as the editors Kullak and Fontana noted, that's their - and YOUR - problem, not the objective science's.
So, you have refused to accept a diplomatic solution to allow each individual to follow his sense of the musical "pathétique", which is utterly subjective and quite acceptable as each has his own opinion; however, you have now been firmly defeated in science, which is the face of music you cannot defeat and is indisputable. I had to simply prove the time period that a pendulum shows, and apply it correctly to the music as Kullak and Fontana had done, and your "beliefs" in the interpretation of the Metronome fall apart.
Good luck in your future indeavours; I wish you well.
Warm regards,
Tom
Thomas. First, I want to apologize for my many annoying typos in my first post.
But you didn’t succeed in answering my challenge: Is it logical that children, 7-12 years old play Chopin’s etudes much faster than the adult Chopin himself? We need no knowlegde of the pendulum, only the ability of elementary logical thinking.
@@geiryvindeskeland7208
Dear Geir,
First, you are not my audience. I don't waste time writing, reviewing, learning, and researching for people who don't know the difference between science and tastes.
Second, and this is for you: You do not qualify a person's musical abiity on his athleticism. I understood your point, and I indeed answered it: "There is no accounting for tastes". Put another way, I would prefer to hear music, not see a sporting event. You suggest that "virtuosity" is a matter of "velocity". Fine. Understood. Disagreed. "Tastes ..."
Third, when reconstructing an historical work of art, be it visual, auditory, &c., it is of paramount importance in its interpretation to return to the source to get a better understanding of said work.To do this, a prerequisite understanding of "tempo ... changes everything" is required, and to that end, the genesis of the "tempo machine" that these ancients used to mark the tempo of the music is required. Science is elementary ("my Dear Watson") and quite logical; there is no logic or defence of "tastes". Putting it frankly, "Opinions are like a**holes, and their full of sh*t".
Finally, you have done nothing but make suggestions that someone played too fast or too slow. You have based this on nothing but your own personal "opinion" (see above, which again is all that your opinion is worth). You have also suggested that anyone who plays fast - instead of musically - must be some "7-12" year-old child. I actually agree with you: Only a 7-12-year-old child would consider the idea that playing fast is more virtuosic than playing musically. We agree here for sure! These are opinions; these are tastes; they are not scientific or historical on your part. These two educative disciplines (exegesis and science) must be employed when attempting to recreate how these ancients must have played.
Be well, Geir.
@@thomashughes4859 Without trying to detract from your learning, I just point out that a pendulum has a measurable half period as well as a full period, and it is beyond doubt that metronome marks refer to the half period. A metronome set to 60 ticks 60 times a minute, once for every half period of the pendulum swing. Many contemporary sources state clearly that crotchet = 60 MM means that 60 crotchets (i.e. the value of a crotchet) are played in a minute - or one a second.
I'm glad, however, that you appreciated Ruxandra Oancea's playing (as I do). If she is thinking at all about the later MM marks given by Czerny, Moscheles, and others, she is certainly following the half period, single tick, interpretation.
Poor Mr Rossi! Beethoven's pupil Czerny tells us that the master was noticeably deaf by 1811 and profoundly deaf by 1814. That means that the Broadwood fortepiano sent to him in 1817 and the Graf lent to him in 1826 would not have been heard by him. What instrument did Beethoven hear in his imagination then? The last instrument he owned before deafness overtook him was by Streicher or Pleyel [1808]. Neither were "modern" pianos in our sense of the term, since the instrument we know didn't exist before about 1870, forty years after Beethoven's death. The instrument played here is typical of those Viennese instruments for which Beethoven wrote his piano works. Schubert, Haydn, Chopin and Mozart didn't have modern pianos either. That we play them on our instrument makes those performances, regardless of how wonderful something of an anachronism. Please get over it.
A
He still had days where he could hear enough even into 1820s. The late piano sonatas were clearly written for an instrument much closer to the modern piano, he probably envisioned an instrument more akin to our pianos anyways...he was very satisfied with his Broadwood
anachreon01 Ever heard of bone conduction? After Beethoven went completely deaf, he still was able to “hear” through his jawbone using a metal rod, which he attached one end to the piano, and bit down the other end. So he could hear some of his music. He didn’t just “imagine things”
anachreon01 and btw, the modern piano is developed from the fortepiano you are hearing in this video. Obviously they aren’t the same, but some elements, especially the idea of “piano” and “forte” was inherited by the modern piano.
The simple act of performing a piece written centuries ago is an anachronism. We don't know for sure how the interpreters of the time would have sounded either.
Wow, what a great sound! So that is what early Beethoven would have sounded like. Very interesting. Chimes like a harpsichord! Very 18th century!
What an amazing sound even without a steel harp.
I want to make this style of piano but as an upright piano with two harps. I think it would be nice and easy to move. It would probably also be easier to find a spot for it in a small home.
sei bravissima. Ti seguo.
Magnificent instrument (Graf copy?) and performance. Once again, it illustrates how Beethoven comes alive when played on a pre-iron-framed instrument. And on an early Viennese, as here, it's pretty well as Beethoven would have envisaged it. Thanks for posting. Regards, P.
In her speech (via my bad french :), she said something like "unknown maker, copy of Anton Walter 1795". I like the sound of piano-forte for classical era sonatas. On modern piano they sound okay, but a bit muddy and boomy. Just my taste, not saying it is right or wrong.
Pedja Pant
U
Ji
J
fantastico. il forte piano permette alla pianista, che non conoscevo ma è straordinaria, di far sentire perfettamente tutto il fraseggio e il senso delle parti che costruiscono i diversi momenti delle sonate. il pianoforte forse, mi viene da pensare, non è proprio adatto ad esprimere l'emotività e la sensibilità musicale della musica del 700 e dell'800,, fino ad almeno chopin se non debussy.
Ruxandra eccezionale,
+stoalbar
questi antichi pianoforti erano strumenti straordinari perché consentivano una grande varietà timbrica.
superb
Great performance!! I'm very impressed!
Felicitari! In sfarsit un muzician roman la pianoforte in acest repertoriu!
❤️ beautiful
Very well played. Very dramatic readings.
Excellente pianiste! Beethoven tel qu'en lui-même... Bravo!
Très bien !!!!
is beethoven actually playing it?! whoa.
Yes. He was prettier then.
She must be very inteligent to play more than one hour!!
Per favore...anyone that can take us into the Beethoven genius is to be thanked. Of course the same could be said for the Bachs, Papa Haydn and all those from music who widen our conception of aeonian travelogues. These people at best can be guides to his monumental stature amongst our giants. Have you an academic argument regarding the machine or the machinist, be gentle for the vast majority remain cliched as works in progress, a natural function of imperfection. Ah, the Maestro! Allegro con brio!
Wunderschön! Ich mag sehr den silbrigen, obertonreichen Klang der alten Hammerklaviere, viel lieber als die modernen Flügel, die für mein Ohr schrecklich dumpf und tot klingen.
Bravo Ruxandra
2:55 start
No Steinway for me, never, no way!
It took me a while to find this after trawling through other videos trying to find one that wasn't broken up with intrusive advertizing. Now I have arrived I am glad I came and I imagine this is how the sonatas would have sounded in the composer's day. Having said that, it would still sound better on a grand piano!
que hermoso escuchar esto! pero que instrumentos es? (de que fabricante)
Are there recordings of all the sonatas on fortepiano somewhere? I'd be very interested to hear some of the late ones.
Ronald Brautigam: ua-cam.com/play/PLxXjllvtBC_pLIj0j3xkT5_zeiNucFA93.html
Muy bien ligado....parece como si gustará el sustain...
Congratulations! Wonderful performance! I supposed You're "Romancà"! :)
What fortepiano is?
Bravo de jouer Beethoven sur un instrument qu'il a connu (même si celui ci est une copie). le STEINWAY D274 n'existait pas à l'époque et tout le monde joue les sonates dessus. hérésie!
Se trata de una copia de un WALTER & SOHN de 1804 (vienés), realizada por Paul McNulty.
She uses the "pedals" a lot here. If the sheet music calls for this pedal or that, does that apply as well to modern piano? Is the music altered to be playable on new piano?
To what temperament is the piano tuned?
equal
Are the damper pedal and the una corda controlled by the knee? I thought that, by Beethoven's day, those controls finally made it to the floor.
Ken Busch I was already wondering where they were.
***** How the modest inaccuracy in my first sentence ascends to the level of "knee-slapping joke" escapes me. Perhaps Alfred Alder can explain.
In any case, Ms. Oancea clearly is controlling dampers with a right knee lever. For example, at around 3:52, she draws back her right leg suddenly to drop the dampers onto the strings.
Number 16 mvt 2 was totally improvised ...
One question: where is the paddle??
+Valen Volk wow.. Thank you so much! That explains a lot!
I there is more information about these period instruments in these period instrument guides by the channel, Baroque band.
vous jouez très bien (mais je ne pense pas qu'il ait du comique dans cette musique, comme vous dites dans la présentation!)
How is the sustain pedal used on this piano? If there is one
You push up with your right knee
44:20
15:45?
tempest 28:00
1:11:12
Personal timestamp only HAHHA
Presto con fuoco op31 no 3 4th mvt
Começa logo porra!
Me da la sensación de que si la pianista tocara el fortepiano como quieren algunos aquí abajo (de manera que no suene percusivo, "que no es un piano", como si tuviera miedo de hacerle daño al instrumento...), las sonatas sonarían muy correctas, pero bastante descafeinadas y sosas. A mí me parece preferible escucharlas "aporreadas" en un piano moderno que perder tiempo en escuchar semejante plomo cuidadoso y correcto sobre un instrumento de época. Por suerte, la pianista aquí no ha tenido ese criterio y creo que le ha sabido sacar partido al instrumento (que si tiene que sonar metálico, sonará metálico ¿y qué?)
Does she really enjoy
playing it on that piano?
Hot French lass.
I don't like the sudden changes of tempo in some places in the Tempest. That's not how you use rubato in Beethoven
Stick to your violin and let musicians and audience feel and enjoy the music themselves.
I think when Beethoven was composing some of his pieces, he must have been imagining a much bigger instrument.
Yes and no. He didn't want a modern piano, but the larger wooden fortepianos from later in his career.
3:58 the manierism on this bar is really a shame..really don't think this is a correct interpretation. I enjoyed watching the video overall, though.
If harps haven’t existed, neither would have the piano
This piano doesn't sound like it doesn't have a Pedal
Molto affascinante. Peccato un po' sporchina.
It is quite strange to play Beethoven's keyboard pieces by a fortepiano instead of a piano!
No pedal??
Of course. Basically fortepiano has no foot pedals.
But it has knee pedals, hid under its keyboard.
You must learn about fortepiano, by yourself, more and more!!
Too forceful playing for this instrument IMHO. Sound becomes too thin and sharp, and fades away too fast, doesnt sustain as it should especially in high register of the instrument.
Dear pidekarr, I'm afraid you're missing the point. The differences in sound of the earlier instrument from the modern are all part of its charm. True, it doesn't sustain very long in the upper register, and the sound becomes more percussive as the volume increases. But, that's all part of the deal. The later modern instrument is designed for greater power and sustain, but there is a trade-off. The greater variety of tonal colors in the early instrument is sacrificed. The modern instrument does not change much in tone with variation of volume. I don't have a preference in this repertoire. Both types have their good qualities. Of course, the instrument we are hearing here would not do for Scriabin or Debussy. Nor would I want to be without the wonderful interpretations of the great players of the modern piano. All styles have their good qualities, and I for one, would not like to lose any of them. I hope all this verbosity is helpful in some way. Take care, and enjoy.
It's also worth noting that Beethoven himself was noted to play the fortepiano so hard that he would actually sometimes break the strings. By that standard, Oancea is being downright gentle.
Dear Jack. I am not talking about specifics of the instrument, but about playing itself. This is a common problem for a modern pianist, who are trained on this loud and heavy steinways. Most of them lose sensibility, both in fingers and in hearing so when one approaches historical instruments, he/she needs time to "switch" , get off from bad habits and heavy modern technique.
C'est un massacre !
Given his genius, Beethoven definately had a far more superior instrument in his inner hearing and mind.