One author has suggested a compromise solution for the modern piano: before playing, silently depress all the piano's keys below the lowest note that Beethoven uses, then capture and hold these notes throughout the movement with the sostenuto (middle) pedal. These notes' sympathetic vibrations will provide something of the sonic "halo" of undamped strings. Then, the player uses the damper pedal normally as per modern practice, changing with each harmony.
On a nearly unrelated note, I wonder why the fortepiano is called 'fortepiano' in our day and not 'pianoforte'. Muzio Clementi's epitaph in Westminster Abbey calls him the 'father of the pianoforte', and we have contemporary evidence from letters, journals, and even novels (e.g. Austen's) that the instrument was commonly called the 'pianoforte' both in England and the US. I suppose it's a question better suited to etymologists than musicians, but it's puzzling nonetheless.
@@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co it's just a practical way of distinguishing the modern instrument from the historical one. Historically, the terms pianoforte and fortepiano were used interchangeably
Beethoven lived in a time of great advancement and change in piano engineering. He didn't live to see the Chickerings & Steinways with their iron frames and overstringing, which are designed to fill concert halls but we don't need that to make records. This video clues us into the sound that Beethoven crafted and intended for us to hear.
Letting the notes ring sounds too rich and harmonically complex in my opinion, I like it. I have never listened to Mondschein like you've played (with an old piano) and you've made me listen and pay attention to some hidden dissonances I'd never listened to and couldn't imagine. Thank you!
This Op.27, 2, along with op.57, op. 101, op.106 and the three last sonatas are otherwordly works full of mistery and bewilderment! You listen to them, you look at the scores, you play them and you know that there's an abyss of secrets in these works that no one can fathom!
Andras Schiff made a good lecture about the 32 sonatas, and particularly about this one. Additionally, I play it with a delay changing the pedal, leaving a small part of the previous harmony, just to get the new harmony a little “dirt”, to create a mist effect.
Tom Beghin: thank you so much for adopting Ludwig's true tempo indications on the earlier piano.... the rest of us miss the "alla breve" so we are too slow in the light of the slivery moon ;-) I confess to being greatly inspired by Sir Andras Schiff's eloquent analysis of the work.
Andras Schiff discusses the use of pedal in detail. Schiff recommend's part pedal ,,,,or depressed about 1/4 . There is a point when dampers are touching strings but still allow whispery sustaining of sound.
Greetings from México. The sound of Fortepiano remembers Clavichord sound. It is seemed a guitar like, in my opinion. This sound is more natural. It seem ti ve created by nature. I love it.
This is a good video, however I cannot understand why everyone seems to dismiss the way it sounds with Beethoven's markings on the modern piano. Using the 1/2 pedal creates a sound pretty similar to the pedal on the fortepiano, however I also find that using full pedal can also work, and adds a lot to the piece. The first 4 bars especially loose all purpose if you lift the pedal, and you loose lots of the important dissonances throughout the piece.
i dont understand how you think something "adds to the piece" of a work created by an absolute master? i believe Beethoven might just know a TAD more than you about what adds and detracts from his own works.
@@TheSighphiguy Context. It adds to the piece in context on an instrument Beethoven didn't have, and never knew. Given that he isn't around anymore to tell performers what he thinks works, performers have to infer and use their judgement when attempting to interpret his works on a modern piano.
@@ryano.5149 we can guess that Beethoven because of his hearing loss would have really dislike the modern piano. The clarity and definition of older pianos were something essential given his condition, and the kind of muffled sounds and dissonances that you get with the crossed strings in modern pianos would have been unbearable for him.
One must remember that Beethoven did NOT give this piece the title "mondschein". That is someone else's take on Beethoven's harmonies. Anyone know who is actually responsible for this name?
Goddammit thank you! The fucking argument and discussion on this sound difference shit and "oh my god i cannot get the sound he intended " was confusing the crap out of me! It's so fucking simple. Just don't ram the pedal down. As if that is rocket science... Glad someone said it.
One could quarter or half pedal with quarter or less lifts every triad group too. Basically we just need to find ways that imitate the continued sustain of each note without muddying the sound too much. I think a full pedal change with every harmony is too clear for the style of the piece. If it's played softly and pedal control is practiced, the piece sounds very similar without being too muddy. A slightly muddy sound is clearly intended. Even when this man plays on the fortepiano, it sounds muddy in places.
How's that thing tuned? It's obvious it's not tuned following the equal temperament, and the whole piece feels a quarter tone below than what it sounds on the steinway. I find it quite more delightful this way though. I guess the key that the piece is written on makes a huge difference to other keys due to the tuning of this old style fortepiano.
Fortepianos are typically tuned to 430 Hz because they're not designed to be tuned any higher. That's approximately 1/3 of a semitone down from 440 Hz tuning. You have good ears.
It wasn't until early/mid 20th Century that the 'Stuttgart standard' of A, 440Hz was 'setttled' upon (notwithstanding nearly constant recording 'engineering' pitch'speed manipulations, particularly for popular music)
Incidentally the late Earl Wilde thought Beethoven composed op 27#2 on an instrument tuned significantly lower than C# minor and would transpose it to a lower key in performance
The sordino (singular, not the plural sordini) to which Beethoven refers is not the damper upon each string, but a stripe of cloth interposed between the hammers and the strings, like in modern upright and great pianos of his time.
In these early pianofortes, that is called a "moderator," which is also described in this video. When Beethoven specifies "senza sordino," that means "without damping," so that must refer to the dampers, because if "sordino" meant for the moderator to be used, he would have indicated "con sordino," i.e. with muting.
@@timothytikker1147what he is saying is that "delicatissimamente e senza sordino" is specifically telling to play very delicately and not use the moderator as it affects the resonance, pretty much "do not cheat" is what beethoven says, so sordino refers yes to the moderator but you are told to play as delicately as possible without using the moderator , I assure you that very delicately with the moderator sounds like absolute silence
Another passage where it might be desirable to depress the knee lever continuously (or do some equivalent on the modern piano) is in Mozart's Sonata in C KV 545, bars 18-21 of the first movement. The result is a wonderful chain of ninth chords. Try holding down the descending semiquavers in the right hand...
I think with a slower tempo on the fortepiano, the harmonies would sound much better. It becomes muddy when there isn't time for the sound to decay sufficiently, EVEN on an old-style fortepiano with a senza sordino stop or whatever is used for the senza sordino effect.
mstalcup I see what you’re saying, but the tempo marking Beethoven gives is in the context of Cut-time. that means that every triplet in the RH is one half of a beat, so we must count an extremely slow “2” if the tempo is slower than what the performer here plays.
Even though Beethoven indicates cut time, "quasi una fantasia" can be interpreted as "as though improvised", which suggests a slower tempo and LOTS of rubato..."you pays your money & you takes your choice".
I'm not convinced that "As though improvised" suggests by itself a slower tempo and "LOTS" of rubato, personally. I mean, improvisation could take so many forms across so many genres even within the common practice era up to the point Beethoven wrote this sonata. Bach's Toccatas, for example, are quite literally written-down improvisations, but would we say that they therefore should be played at a slower tempo and with lots of rubato? I mean, you could if you want, but that's not how I'd prefer to play them.... likewise, I don't think it conceptually makes as much sense to play this piece on the slower, rubato-heavy side either.
@@Legomyegoorj Good points: I have a recording I made of Pierre Cochereau improvising at a furious tempo...I did hear a performance of Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor with lots of rubato & I found it less than convincing...seasick comes to mind....
It's not likely that Beethoven or any composer would repeat the instructions; if that's the case, the dual instructions are single: one for each stave. Kerman found the debate quite amusing because it pinpointed diametric interpretations.
Fascinating...I wonder if some of the difficulty can be ascribed to Beethoven's deafness, becoming a serious problem in 1801, perhaps he was hearkening back to an older fortepiano sound...and perhaps he couldn't hear the resonant dissonances as clearly?
Well actually there’s absolutely no problem on Beethoven’s end. He wrote it perfectly and in line with the standards of his time. The problem is just that now days, playing the same piece on a modern piano kills so much of what worked on the original. And it’s hard to decide exactly how it should be played today
The secret is in the tuning. It's Equal Temperament which is the problem and confuses the resonances. Beethoven was writing for tunings exploiting either a number of perfect 5ths or perfect 3rds. Modern Steinways react very well to these tunings.
Hello, Czerny (Disciple of Beethoven, and what kind of disciple !) said contrary think about the use of the pedal on this piece. Please see on the link, pages 48/49 of the PDF. The original edition is on imslp if want to verify hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/1/17/IMSLP356510-PMLP513421-Czerny__-500_Complete_Theoretical_and_Practical_School_op_500-__Book_4_Chapter_2.pdf Pianist and musicologist Ziad Kreidy have same idea expressed on this video about use of pedal: see his book "Les Avatars du Piano". Maybe we have to reconsider the term "Sordino" employed by Beethoven to this piece? Or why a so disciplined master like Czerny have make so big mistake? Anyway, the same Czerny speak about 3 kinds of pedals on his Op 500, 3rd part, Chap 6 In the French historical traduction the pedal "una corda" is called "sourdine" Some other articles are published on JSTOR www.jstor.org/journal/musitimesingclas?refreqid=excelsior%3A74ab709ea855d2f775602c59d104837a In the string instruments played with bow it exists the two terms Sordino or Sordina, you know what it's mean Maybe "senza sordino" means "not una corda", and in this case Beethoven insist to play pp and extremely delicately. The "una corda" gives facilities to play very delicately but changes the harmonic richness of the instrument. Is Beethoven asking for make super effort to play with all the harmonic richness of the pianoforte but extremely pp and delicately? Please take in mind that in first edition of sonata 14 the term used is "sordino" but later another editor changed to "sordini", Maybe was Moscheles who promote this mistake... to be continued ?
That's exactly what I was on about, just one thing is that historically sordino was actually the moderator, which was activated by knee stops or pedals in fortepianos of beethovens time, the moderator would drastically modify the response more than the una corda so, also in Italy sordino is still a piece of cloth that come in between the hammer and the strings, and it's what you find now in apartment upright pianos
I don't think you can be sure that "sempre senza sordino" means you can't use the damper at all. Pedalling every chord but otherwise lifting the dampers is still arguably "sempre senza sordino". It can just mean using the pedal throughout the movement.
Yes, a perfectly possible reading (every note played with dampers raised) provided that the direction pertains to the damper pedal rather than the moderator.
There is evidence that in 1801 what we today call the moderator was called the sordino, which is the Italian word for a mute. Beethoven's Walther fortepiano was equiped with a sordino. The first page of the autograph manuscript of op 27 no 2 is missing; however, the first edition, which presumably was created from the autograph, used the word "sordino", whereas the second and subsequent editions use the word "sordini", which means dampers. So it is possible, if not probable, that Beethoven was instructing the player to play without the moderator, not without the dampers. Alas, we probably will never know for certain unless that missing first page turns up.
Many years ago I worked with a teacher who was a fortepiano specialist. She was scornful about those who claim that Beethoven meant "sordini" when he wrote "sordino". Of course Beethoven knew the difference - he was not such a fool as to use the wrong word. Conclusion : he meant "don't use the moderator". I have heard present day experts say that he definitely did not mean this. Who can say?
Sordino or sordina must not to be confused with dampers which literally translates to "smorzatori" or in a more colloquial lazy form can also be referred as "smorzi". The sordino or sordina (can be both masc or fem) it's the piece of fabric that it's still available in almost every upright, activated with the central pedal which is usually not a sostenuto, and was available as a register in the Walter fortepianos. As far as I can tell sordino or sordina doesn't have a proper english translation.
I am interested in this explanation, but ... Czerny in his Proper Performance of Beethoven's Works for the Pianoforte (1846?) understood senza sordino as without dampers, i.e. with the sustaining pedal, since he says it must be re-employed at each note in the bass. With the moderator, there would be no need for this. He also says that Beethoven was accustomed to employ it throughout the whole piece, except for the forte in bar 35. In Piano sonata 12, op.26, there are several places where the instruction con sordini or senza sordini (plural) is given. Were these dampers or moderators? Czerny again comments, but just says Senza Sordino (Pedal), and comments that "even Beethoven, in his time, employed the effects of the pedal in a great variety of ways." Is it possible that Czerny simply didn't know or had forgotten about the mechanism of early pianos, or was mistaken? Where is the term con (or senza) smorzatori used as an instruction in a score? I confess I have never seen it, but my experience is limited. In any case, the instruction con sordino on the FF chords in the presto surely rules out the moderator? P.S. Czerny describes the moderator in his chapter on pedals (op.500 Piano School, English version (1840) part 3), and calls it the Muffle or Buff-pedal or Piano-pedal: "by moving of a strip of cloth situated between the hammers and strings, it causes the tone to become weak and of a flute-like quality." In the Italian version it is simply called the Piano. The Damper Pedal in Italian is indeed the Smorzatore.
@@dorette-hi4j in my opinion there are two things to take into account: 1. people tend to be literal and tassonomic since no more than 20-30 years now. Before that date people were more prone to be descriptive but less rational. Being that descriptive and sometimes evocative it's part of the 19 century culture. This is the reason why Czerny didn't feel forced to adopt a specific jargon like we are used today and described the same thing with different words or settled to adapt similar things into a more generic concept. 2. It's quite evident that Czerny had to adapt the performance practice to the new better performing instruments that abandoned some features (like the sordino) in favor of other more performing and more controllable like the 1C. During the 19 century grand pianos were almost all already set up like current ones, with the "piano" pedal or "una corda" pedal, the "forte" pedal or "tre corde" pedal. But the sordino disappeared from grands. Also the sustain in a modern piano is so much longer that you also have to adapt the performance style. In my opinion we must consider the Czerny adaptation almost as relevant as transcribing from harpsichord to piano, even if a fortepiano is quite more similar to a modern piano than an harpsichord. And this of course means to don't take his instructions as slavishly.
@@dorette-hi4j p.s. in a modern upright the "piano" pedal moves the hammers closer to the strings, in a modern grand the same pedal moves the hammers left so they hit only one string in the trichord section. Similar effect, different technical approach. In an upright the muffler (sordino -> muffler it's a meaningful translation) is still available, in a grand there's nothing like a muffler, and it's no longer intended to be a timbre register like it was in a Walter fortepiano. In my opinion this is an evidence that it's still accepted that "piano" effect could be obtained in many different technical ways, and sordino was an accepted one until modern instruments were built.
Wim Winters is a quack. Trying to sell pseudo-historical makey-uppey BS. He is manipulating and twisting and taking out of context so called "historic evidence" to fit his ridiculous ideas. He makes lots of money of it. No real music historian takes him serious and his hypothesis has already been debunked many times with hard solid evidence. Wim winters is the musical equivalent of a flat-earther.
@@Piflaser I have withdrawn the remark, but should say that I am disappointed by the cavalier twists that people on UA-cam take with the evidence, whether it relates to sonority or tempo. As we know from Czerny, Beethoven was given to playing the whole of this movement with the "shifting pedal" so that the discussion here of the metallic pantaleone stop is completely off the point. When Beghin talks about Beethoven indicating that the piece is to be played "in the old way" the circularity is obvious. We know also that Czerny himself wrote that the sustaining pedal should change with the harmony ("must be changed with each note in the bass") and, although it is not explicit from these precise words that this was his memory of Beethoven's practice, the chapter in which he gives this instruction is about "the right way" to play Beethoven. Regarding the tempo proposals of Wim Winters, these seem ungrounded in contemporary evidence and, given the limited sustaining power of the instruments of 1801, even more perverse than they would be if the proposal had been to argue for still slower tempi on the modern grand. I would imagine that if the piece were allowed to unfold for, say, 20 minutes, the blurring of harmony would be sufficiently reduced even on the Steinway to allow the pedal to stay down the whole movement through. Given the "cut" time, and instruments from before the age of the iron frame, however, the arguments favour a more fluid version of Adagio, taking less than 9 and three-quarter minutes. Perhaps not quite as fluid (or as damply pedalled) as Tom Beghin.
I prefer trying to recreate the original effect on modern piano, 1/4 pedal, pianissimo (especially left hand). It is not impossible, but yes hard to manage
@@fernandoserico77 A Virtual Instrument Software that used physical Modelling to emulate various "Clavier" Instruments from Harpsichords, Clavichord to old Pianofortes by Walter etc to modern Grand Pianos like Steinway, Grothrian or Steingraeber. Because this Technique uses no Samples you can adjust nearly everything with a mouseclick From different temperaments to finetuning of every hammer and many aspects inbetween. www.pianoteq.com
it is simple. Instruments with more resonance should be played slower, instruments with less resonance should be played faster. It is 100 percent sure that Beethoven's piano had less
Schiff discusses this important issue of the damper pedal in this piece of music. Having grown up using the pedal up and down in pulses, my inclination is to reject Beethoven's apparent request to use it for the whole first movement without letting it go once. I also had it in mind to check (at some point) whether poor Beethoven was advanced in deafness to such a degree that by the time he finished this masterpiece his hearing really was shot? I don't know. I am imagining that it was very diminished and that if he really had the ability to hear all of the sounds he would have reconsidered the pedal down instruction. I don't know......its a touchy subject.
fred houpt did you watch the damned video? It was composed for a very different instrument from the modern piano. It responded differently and was constructed differently
@@The_SOB_II Yes, I did watch the "damned" video. I will watch it again because you figure that I am confusing the older pianos with the modern ones. When I have time I'll watch the damned thing again.
It's magnificent... except when the player starts using 𝘳𝘶𝘣𝘢𝘵𝘰. Virtually everybody does it (as Beghin does here), but it still makes me grit my teeth when I hear it in what is presumably supposed to be a period performance, on a period instrument.
Rubato is well known in the classical period. People even warned against excessive use of it, but described the correct use. For instance, J.-L. Adam, Professor of Piano at the Paris Conservatoire, wrote a piano method published in 1804. Here is what he says: "Quelques personnes ont voulu mettre en vogue de ne plus jouer en mesure, et d’exécuter toute espèce de musique comme une fantaisie, prélude ou caprice. On croit par là donner plus d’expression à un morceau et on l’altère de manière à le rendre méconnaissable. Sans doute l’expression exige qu'on rallentisse ou qu’on presse certaines notes de chant, mais ces retards ne doivent pas être continuels pendant tout un morceau, mais seulement dans quelques endroits où l’expression d’un chant langoureux, ou la passion d’un chant agité exigent un retard ou un mouvement plus animé. Dans ce cas c’est le chant qu’il faut altérer, et la basse doit marquer strictement la mesure." This from of rubato is exactly what Chopin taught.
is there a chance that Beethoven wanted a blur sound but not that blur as played here.. could he had written "Senza Sordino" to emphasize blur and let people figure it out. Harmonies change too fast to play Senza Sordino" non stop. What if he avoids the term "Sordini" for a reason? And his biographer, would he not have noted that the piece is paraphrased with piano evolution, instead of just saying that Beehtoven's markings are no longer valid?
Despite some rehabilitation in recent years, Schindler has generally not been taken as very reliable (although he obviously had an awful lot of first-hand Beethoven to write about). Since the piece dates from over 20 years before Schindler became Beethoven's secretary, anything he had to say about it was likely more autobiographical reminiscence than biographical.
Cannot believe it took google 4 years to recommend this for me, a piano technician with a piano performance degree. Panopticism is so misleading, by the state, by capitalists. Though a fan I never understood Gould's staccato imitation of the harpsichord with Bach's C major prelude. You explained my reservations about it. Thank you. It might be observed many vertical pianos have a middle pedal that functions in such a way that felt is lowered between the strings and the hammers that in spite of a metal string frame could accomplish some of the special effects described typical of period grand pianos, while not containing metal string frames that greatly augmented sustain in pianos generally at the time, vertical, and horizontal. Nevertheless, the metal string frames did not transform pianos into instruments without sound decay. Perhaps vertical pedals without a sostenuto middle pedal-most verticals today-featuring potential for lowering felt between the strings and hammers, better could duplicate the effects Beethoven sought in the first movement of op 27 # 2.
@@yoliv2469All the modern critical editions give alla breve for this piece. Furthermore, even if it would be not indicate, this piece is WRITTEN alla breve!
He would've hated it... With the beautiful norway spruce being replaced with cheap cyprus spruce, equal temperament ruining harmonies, not to mention the slow drudging action of the modern piano. I'm sure Beethoven, and many other great conposers would be appalled at the way we have ruined what used to be the most beautiful instrument.
@@ethelryan257 but probably not the uniformity of tone color. also, the action is very deep. it takes years of practice to play something basically well on a modern grand. and the results are 2-dimensional unless you have somebody like richter who can squeeze blood out of that stone through 8 hours of practice a day and a great musical mind. thousands of young people throwing their lives away on competitions to play bland music on an instrument that the music was not written for! the purpose of an instrument is to reduce the friction between a performer's mind and what sounds like can create. heavier actions, wider keyboards, uniformity of tone color all do the opposite. you have to work hard around them, and the result is not that good anyways. this is a travesty and im glad that people started replicating period pianos. no wonder children hate piano lessons. the modern piano is so boring!
Very interesting, well played BUT the semiquavers in the right hand must be played together with the last triplet quaver of the left hand ! Chopin still wrote this rythm this way in his polonaise-fantaisie in 1848! To play this note after is a nonsense. They would have been written like demisemiquavers to specify they are to be played as semiquavers of the triplet in the left hand. .
Interesting take... I’ve definitely seen some Schubert where the dotted rhythm is clearly intended for triplets. What makes you so sure that Beethoven intended it thus? I’m eager to hear more justification than one Chopin piece decades later. Thanks!
That's really a good question, because the answe is not as simple : "because that's the normal way at this time to play that rythm". There are too main facts : 1) the notation of the triplet with a little 3 under the notes didn't exist at the time, so the notation quaver + semiquaver of a triplet is always notated as a dotted semiquaver plus a half semiquaver. Many treatises explain that when the rythm given by the accompaniment is triplets, the dotted rythm is to be played like that. 2) Some theorists and musicians said that the rythm should be played "as written"s, or perhaps (that's how I interpret that statement), the short note as a half semiquaver of the triplet quaver. We can conclude that it depends on the author, period, style, genre, the expression, etc... In this particular case, I'm certain of my interpretation because the tempo notated by Beethoven is alla breve, so much more faster than we usually hear that piece, and as the phrase is a lyric one (this is the crucial point), the short note must be played long enough to have a vocal quality, enough expression and weight. This is the only way to play that rythm in a lyrical context. But if people nowadays prefer something closer to a martial art shot in a sung phrase, well... I won't argue for a question of taste! :D The "fast" interpretation of the notation is a good one in pieces like gigues of the Bach (father and sons), where rythm and energy are the main characteristic of the lines. The "slow" one is great even without accompaniment in triplets in vocal parts like, for example in italian operas of Bellini, Donizetti... Where the expression would be weird with a real short note, where the suppleness of the phrase is more convincing. We can read the rythm like this if we keep in mind that the modern notation of triplet didn't exist at the time... One more example : the famous choirus piece "Va pensiero" by Verdi!
It is surely of interest that Czerny, writing with explicit first-hand reference to Beethoven's own playing of the piece, and within a decade of Beethoven's death, says that the semi-quaver must be struck after the last note of the triplet.
@@zugzwang2007 Indeed very interesting, where can I found that quote please? What could make sense is that at moderate speed, the melodic line is most easily separate from the accompaniment with that short note played slightly after the last of the triplet, as would do a singer, especially an operatic one. The normal thing would be to play the notes together, but it might be more efficient this way to have a more expressive melodic line, still, to play this note too late sounds awkward and a little bit ridiculous to me, especially when the next beat is delayed.
@@qzrnuiqntp The discussion is in a chapter on "the right way" of playing Beethoven (Chapter II of Volume 4). The specific text is at p51 of the original edition (Diabelli) and on p49 of the first English edition (London, 1839). Both are available from IMSLP.
THIS SAID THE MODERATOR IS "SORDINO", BEETHOVEN WAS SAYING TI PLAY THE PIECE QUIETLY WITHOUT THE MODERATOR BECAUSE THE SORDINO(MODERATOR ) CHANGES THE TIMBER AND BRETHOVEN DIDIN'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN, I FEEL SO SORRY FOR ALL THE PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY LEARNT SOMETHING FROM THIS MAN WHO DOESN'T GET HIS INFORMATION RIGHT
@@amedeofabris1268 I am really drawn to this theory of the piece. Apparently it was advocated in the 1895 edition of Grove's dictionary, which proposed that "sordino" (in the singular) was a reference to the moderator stop. If the indication at the beginning of the piece had said "pp ma senza sordino" the idea would be even more appealing. Sadly, this does not seem to fit with the detailed indications for pedalling in the finale, where Beethoven marks the two sforzato chords at the end of bar 2 "senza sordino" and then immediately writes "con sordino" at the beginning of bar 3 (and so on). It is difficult to believe that such rapid alternations of the moderator would have been possible, as it was normally a hand-stop rather than pedal-operated, and both hands are fully-occupied at this point. (Of course, in a much later style of playing, briefly releasing the left pedal to allow for a more brilliant sf would have been quite normal). Regrettably, these considerations suggest also that Beethoven used "sordino" and "sordini" as interchangeable terms for the dampers, and there is no evidence that he knew the word "smorzatore".
That's a good point but at beethovens' time the moderator was activated with your left knee so your hands would be free and "smorzatori" is the word damper but that's just the translation in fact the term is never used in time signature if he don't want you to use the pedal or the right knee lever he will just not write "Ped." Under the staff But they wouldn't write it at the beginning of the score, plus "pianissimo (pp) ma senza sordino" with sordino=damper just sounds ridiculous! I mean "very soft BUT WITHOUT DAMPERS" like, its not harder to play softer without the damper lever activated
@@amedeofabris1268 The point would be that the direction translates as "very soft but without the moderator" where the "but" is an indication that the player is not to take the easy way to play softly, and that the clear sound of the hammers is required, rather than with the felt. So "ma" would (on this account) be strengthening your theory compared with the "and" that is written in. But the third movement markings - and the character of the music there - make this seem quite improbable, unfortunately.
@@zugzwang2007 I'm back 3 years later, first of all apologizing for the tone in the original comments, I was a dumb teenager probably wanted to make a scene, secondly very simply, in Italy in historical instruments we refer to the moderator as "sordino", and always has been the case in Italian language and every language internationally aside english (or better, modern english), the official name for the moderator pedal or lever was sordino even in german and still is called so today by enthisiasts and those who study these instruments, lets also mention the fact than when in those days thry started making fortepiano with 6 pedals that had both a moderator pedal officially named "sordino" and a "doppio sordino" with acted as double the function, the moderator was still called "sordino" even in those late fortepianos which had both the "una corda"(modern left pedal) and the moderator like many later fortepianos by e.g. conrad graf. Also the damper pedal was never referred to as dampers both in Italian and German, actually the same word was the direct translation of the moderator function in German (dämpfer) , not only, the indication "con sordino" in every other piece where is indicated and always translated(when translated) as "mit dämpfer" in german, always meant with moderator and no one ever had or has any different opinion today, so much that all the pieces that presented such indication today have it interpreted as using the una corda pedal, the sustain pedal was always referred to as "pedale" in italian and "die pedale"in the German of the time and as the composers referred to it (as the modern is also das pedal) and the function was always indicated (if not with" Ped.") With "sostenuto" or "con pedale", in both languages called pedal even when it was still a knee levers because it required for you to raise the heel of your foot, therefore still considered a podal function. Also the moderator stop in fortepianos (and not fortepiano spinets like he shows for hand stops) from Mozart times did not have hand activated moderator stops (not to be confused with the harpsichord lute stop which was hand activated)but knee levers or pedals later on, this goes for beethovens personal fortepiano as well, this solves the sforzato problem. As for the "e"(and) instead of the "ma" (but) which was my mistake and I apologise, I still find it to make complete sense as it is an addition, "to be played all piano and without the moderator" which in an instrument like that would be very worth while specifying for the fact that it significantly reduces the resonance and would therefore not require beethoven to write "delicatissimamente e senza sordino " and would just write "con dordino e sostenuto" or "delicatissimamente e sostenuto" very delicately and with the pedal pressed (and you either use or not the moderator). Also the indication of without sordino can refer only to the first movement only, as the second movement is largely pauses and staccatos and the third has specific pedal indications throughout the piece "Ped.", also both the second and third movement cannot be played "delicatissimamente" because of fp indications in the 2nd mov and the 3rd mov is mostly forte and agitato. I also went to check where this idea of sordino as dampers is found and it seems to be strictly an English speaking countries conception, in the rest of Europe this does not seem to be a matter discussion as we mostly do not translate the words from the original Italian and certainly do not the Germans, as I have heard fortepianists such as Andreas staier often refer to Das sordino rather than using the translation, and use Das pedal for the sustain. It seems to me that this conception of the sordino as dampers of the sustain pedal comes from an old problem of trying to translate the meaning of certain indications to functionalities of the modern piano that it doesn't have, especially because no one cared obout period instruments before Wanda landowska and Karl richter came along, so the solution was to take the literal meaning of the sordino (which is better translated as deafener) and apply it to the only thing that physically silences the strings in a modern piano, since the left pedal does not come in contact with the strings in any way. I mean the reason why we I was probably so angry was that this was never a matter of discussion in the fortepiano world as I had known it and it was a fact taken for granted, and so I took it as someone just lazily not doing research and saying in a video that the "almost certainly the composer meant this" which I took offensively. But I've come to find out that in foums it is actually a matter of discussion and I guess there are musicologists who believe so as well, the only thing that gets me is that the dilemma is specific for this piece only. To finish I will also like to add that every instrument has a sordino accessory which acts as a silencer, and also in this case "sordino" was originally (and tecnically still is )the official term to refer to these internationally. In these cases the indication is "ouvert" for brass instruments (the sordino in this case is the bell) and "senza sordino " or "senza serranda" for string instruments (the sordino here is the accessory you put on the strings tho limit the resonance) .
The application of the term "moonlight" to this sonata has ruined people's idea of this piece. As you state, Beethoven did not apply the term "moonlight", and would probably be appalled at the traditional performance of this movement today.
I don't think he would be appalled. We have to do some changes to the music so that the music works on our new instruments. I think he would play quite different then we do. Most pianists play Beethoven's music way to fast. I think that would be the biggest beef Beethoven would have.
My theory for the singular instead of plural for damper is that in german, Dämpfer ist the singular and plural for the word damper, and Beethoven was apparently known not to have been that perfect at other languages. So my assumption is he instinctively applied german grammar to italian words because he might not have known better
"Moonlight" is in my top 10 greatest piano comps of all time. Not complex or Technical but incredibly nuanced. Today it's often butchered by high-gain “MEP-classical” metal guitarists and the like - a joke.
No it is not. Beethoven composed it like that. You are simply used to modern interpretations on modern bombastic instruments at modern speed. which is 99 out of 100 times way too slow
One author has suggested a compromise solution for the modern piano: before playing, silently depress all the piano's keys below the lowest note that Beethoven uses, then capture and hold these notes throughout the movement with the sostenuto (middle) pedal. These notes' sympathetic vibrations will provide something of the sonic "halo" of undamped strings. Then, the player uses the damper pedal normally as per modern practice, changing with each harmony.
Personally i like the sound of the fortepiano more for this piece.
Seems more organic to my ears
On a nearly unrelated note, I wonder why the fortepiano is called 'fortepiano' in our day and not 'pianoforte'. Muzio Clementi's epitaph in Westminster Abbey calls him the 'father of the pianoforte', and we have contemporary evidence from letters, journals, and even novels (e.g. Austen's) that the instrument was commonly called the 'pianoforte' both in England and the US.
I suppose it's a question better suited to etymologists than musicians, but it's puzzling nonetheless.
@@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co it's just a practical way of distinguishing the modern instrument from the historical one. Historically, the terms pianoforte and fortepiano were used interchangeably
Of course. Always use the clavier that was used in that time: Bach harpsichord, Beethoven fortepiano, Rachmaninoff grand piano.
"isn't that beautiful?" yeah, why did you stop?!
Because it's not what Beethoven wrote.
"Those triads."
-Tom Beghin
"Etcetera"
-Tom Beghin
"Ah"
- Tom Beghin
"Those shadows"
-Tom Beghin
"DOSE TRIUTTSZ" - tom beghin
Thanks, ancientcock
Beautifully explained and mesmerising played, thankyou.
Beethoven lived in a time of great advancement and change in piano engineering. He didn't live to see the Chickerings & Steinways with their iron frames and overstringing, which are designed to fill concert halls but we don't need that to make records. This video clues us into the sound that Beethoven crafted and intended for us to hear.
Letting the notes ring sounds too rich and harmonically complex in my opinion, I like it. I have never listened to Mondschein like you've played (with an old piano) and you've made me listen and pay attention to some hidden dissonances I'd never listened to and couldn't imagine. Thank you!
the subtle vulnerability of this instrument's sound gives me goosebumps each time i listen to it. Thanks a lot for this video!
Vielen Dank! So interessant sind Ihre Ausführungen und so zu Herzen gehend gespielt.
This Op.27, 2, along with op.57, op. 101, op.106 and the three last sonatas are otherwordly works full of mistery and bewilderment! You listen to them, you look at the scores, you play them and you know that there's an abyss of secrets in these works that no one can fathom!
Andras Schiff made a good lecture about the 32 sonatas, and particularly about this one. Additionally, I play it with a delay changing the pedal, leaving a small part of the previous harmony, just to get the new harmony a little “dirt”, to create a mist effect.
Lovely, absorbing, video! Many, many thanks.
One note: "si deve suonare" = "should be played", not "should sound"
thank you! I allways felt there is more to this piece, and you explained it...
I could listen to you speak and play all day. Great video. Thanks.
Beautiful, beautiful music
One little detail: the "Pantaleon", or keyed dulcimer, was the latest variation of the "dulce melos", which goes back to at least the 15th century.
Very informative, thank you!
Thank you for this illustrious demonstration : )
Tom Beghin: thank you so much for adopting Ludwig's true tempo indications on the earlier piano.... the rest of us miss the "alla breve" so we are too slow
in the light of the slivery moon ;-)
I confess to being greatly inspired by Sir Andras Schiff's eloquent analysis of the work.
Thanks so much for this beautiful video.
Very nice sound has this instrument, all sounds special on it
Andras Schiff discusses the use of pedal in detail.
Schiff recommend's part pedal ,,,,or depressed about 1/4 .
There is a point when dampers are touching strings but still allow whispery sustaining of sound.
Excellent - and - I also enjoyed the comments - lots to think about :)
-
thanks for sharing. Very interesting!
that small square piano sounds nice. i didn't know there was that small pianos in those years
Greetings from México. The sound of Fortepiano remembers Clavichord sound. It is seemed a guitar like, in my opinion. This sound is more natural. It seem ti ve created by nature. I love it.
this for the 1rst movement
This is a good video, however I cannot understand why everyone seems to dismiss the way it sounds with Beethoven's markings on the modern piano. Using the 1/2 pedal creates a sound pretty similar to the pedal on the fortepiano, however I also find that using full pedal can also work, and adds a lot to the piece. The first 4 bars especially loose all purpose if you lift the pedal, and you loose lots of the important dissonances throughout the piece.
Lose, not loose. Loose means you’re an easy lay.
i dont understand how you think something "adds to the piece" of a work created by an absolute master?
i believe Beethoven might just know a TAD more than you about what adds and detracts from his own works.
@@TheSighphiguy Context. It adds to the piece in context on an instrument Beethoven didn't have, and never knew. Given that he isn't around anymore to tell performers what he thinks works, performers have to infer and use their judgement when attempting to interpret his works on a modern piano.
All the way through? It sounds horrible. Better lift the pedal every bass note that is played in octaves.
@@ryano.5149 we can guess that Beethoven because of his hearing loss would have really dislike the modern piano. The clarity and definition of older pianos were something essential given his condition, and the kind of muffled sounds and dissonances that you get with the crossed strings in modern pianos would have been unbearable for him.
Very interesting. And charming.
That was so beautiful why stoppppp :(
I liked the sound of that better than today's pianos :(
Wonderful explanation.
Thank you.
One must remember that Beethoven did NOT give this piece the title "mondschein". That is someone else's take on Beethoven's harmonies. Anyone know who is actually responsible for this name?
Ludwig Rellstab poet, critic
Andras Schiff gives a historical context on this subject.
o man. that was amazing!
Very interesting. Thank you!
Just half pedal throughout the whole piece on a modern piano and you will be fine.
Yes, that's correct. By Half pedal I mean not full pedal.
Yes, but the pedaling needs to be sensitive to the harmonic changes too...Barenboim does a good job IMO.
thanks for the suggestion. I will pay attention to Barenboim and Brendel interpretation. I like Baremboim's Beethoven very much
Goddammit thank you! The fucking argument and discussion on this sound difference shit and "oh my god i cannot get the sound he intended " was confusing the crap out of me! It's so fucking simple. Just don't ram the pedal down. As if that is rocket science... Glad someone said it.
One could quarter or half pedal with quarter or less lifts every triad group too. Basically we just need to find ways that imitate the continued sustain of each note without muddying the sound too much. I think a full pedal change with every harmony is too clear for the style of the piece. If it's played softly and pedal control is practiced, the piece sounds very similar without being too muddy. A slightly muddy sound is clearly intended. Even when this man plays on the fortepiano, it sounds muddy in places.
greaaaat! please make more videos like this
Bedankt!
qué maravilla!
Wonderful
How's that thing tuned? It's obvious it's not tuned following the equal temperament, and the whole piece feels a quarter tone below than what it sounds on the steinway. I find it quite more delightful this way though. I guess the key that the piece is written on makes a huge difference to other keys due to the tuning of this old style fortepiano.
@Joel Adimathra That's not the question. He asked about the relative steps between the notes not the absolute frequency of an a.
Fortepianos are typically tuned to 430 Hz because they're not designed to be tuned any higher. That's approximately 1/3 of a semitone down from 440 Hz tuning. You have good ears.
Meantone or well/Wohl temperament probby
It wasn't until early/mid 20th Century that the 'Stuttgart standard' of A, 440Hz was 'setttled' upon (notwithstanding nearly constant recording 'engineering' pitch'speed manipulations, particularly for popular music)
Jesus! in the classical period 430hz was more likely used
Incidentally the late Earl Wilde thought Beethoven composed op 27#2 on an instrument tuned significantly lower than C# minor and would transpose it to a lower key in performance
And C# minor especially in the last movement is a killer.
The sordino (singular, not the plural sordini) to which Beethoven refers is not the damper upon each string, but a stripe of cloth interposed between the hammers and the strings, like in modern upright and great pianos of his time.
In these early pianofortes, that is called a "moderator," which is also described in this video. When Beethoven specifies "senza sordino," that means "without damping," so that must refer to the dampers, because if "sordino" meant for the moderator to be used, he would have indicated "con sordino," i.e. with muting.
@@timothytikker1147what he is saying is that "delicatissimamente e senza sordino" is specifically telling to play very delicately and not use the moderator as it affects the resonance, pretty much "do not cheat" is what beethoven says, so sordino refers yes to the moderator but you are told to play as delicately as possible without using the moderator , I assure you that very delicately with the moderator sounds like absolute silence
Beethoven was referring to the fortepiano's 'sordini', an internal lid that you put on and take off, not the dampers.
Beethoven didn’t call the first movement “moonlight sonata” - that was given later by another.
That pianoforte has a lovely sound.
I ever prefer the "Moon light sonata" played on it, than on the modern piano.
Almost, at least.
Another passage where it might be desirable to depress the knee lever continuously (or do some equivalent on the modern piano) is in Mozart's Sonata in C KV 545, bars 18-21 of the first movement. The result is a wonderful chain of ninth chords. Try holding down the descending semiquavers in the right hand...
I think with a slower tempo on the fortepiano, the harmonies would sound much better. It becomes muddy when there isn't time for the sound to decay sufficiently, EVEN on an old-style fortepiano with a senza sordino stop or whatever is used for the senza sordino effect.
mstalcup I see what you’re saying, but the tempo marking Beethoven gives is in the context of Cut-time. that means that every triplet in the RH is one half of a beat, so we must count an extremely slow “2” if the tempo is slower than what the performer here plays.
Even though Beethoven indicates cut time, "quasi una fantasia" can be interpreted as "as though improvised", which suggests a slower tempo and LOTS of rubato..."you pays your money & you takes your choice".
I'm not convinced that "As though improvised" suggests by itself a slower tempo and "LOTS" of rubato, personally. I mean, improvisation could take so many forms across so many genres even within the common practice era up to the point Beethoven wrote this sonata. Bach's Toccatas, for example, are quite literally written-down improvisations, but would we say that they therefore should be played at a slower tempo and with lots of rubato? I mean, you could if you want, but that's not how I'd prefer to play them.... likewise, I don't think it conceptually makes as much sense to play this piece on the slower, rubato-heavy side either.
@@Legomyegoorj Good points: I have a recording I made of Pierre Cochereau improvising at a furious tempo...I did hear a performance of Bach's Toccata & Fugue in D minor with lots of rubato & I found it less than convincing...seasick comes to mind....
It's not likely that Beethoven or any composer would repeat the instructions; if that's the case, the dual instructions are single: one for each stave. Kerman found the debate quite amusing because it pinpointed diametric interpretations.
Fascinating...I wonder if some of the difficulty can be ascribed to Beethoven's deafness, becoming a serious problem in 1801, perhaps he was hearkening back to an older fortepiano sound...and perhaps he couldn't hear the resonant dissonances as clearly?
Well actually there’s absolutely no problem on Beethoven’s end. He wrote it perfectly and in line with the standards of his time. The problem is just that now days, playing the same piece on a modern piano kills so much of what worked on the original. And it’s hard to decide exactly how it should be played today
Bellisimo
The secret is in the tuning. It's Equal Temperament which is the problem and confuses the resonances. Beethoven was writing for tunings exploiting either a number of perfect 5ths or perfect 3rds. Modern Steinways react very well to these tunings.
Hello, Czerny (Disciple of Beethoven, and what kind of disciple !) said contrary think about the use of the pedal on this piece.
Please see on the link, pages 48/49 of the PDF. The original edition is on imslp if want to verify
hz.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/1/17/IMSLP356510-PMLP513421-Czerny__-500_Complete_Theoretical_and_Practical_School_op_500-__Book_4_Chapter_2.pdf
Pianist and musicologist Ziad Kreidy have same idea expressed on this video about use of pedal: see his book "Les Avatars du Piano".
Maybe we have to reconsider the term "Sordino" employed by Beethoven to this piece? Or why a so disciplined master like Czerny have make so big mistake?
Anyway, the same Czerny speak about 3 kinds of pedals on his Op 500, 3rd part, Chap 6
In the French historical traduction the pedal "una corda" is called "sourdine"
Some other articles are published on JSTOR
www.jstor.org/journal/musitimesingclas?refreqid=excelsior%3A74ab709ea855d2f775602c59d104837a
In the string instruments played with bow it exists the two terms Sordino or Sordina, you know what it's mean
Maybe "senza sordino" means "not una corda", and in this case Beethoven insist to play pp and extremely delicately. The "una corda" gives facilities to play very delicately but changes the harmonic richness of the instrument. Is Beethoven asking for make super effort to play with all the harmonic richness of the pianoforte but extremely pp and delicately?
Please take in mind that in first edition of sonata 14 the term used is "sordino" but later another editor changed to "sordini", Maybe was Moscheles who promote this mistake...
to be continued ?
That's exactly what I was on about, just one thing is that historically sordino was actually the moderator, which was activated by knee stops or pedals in fortepianos of beethovens time, the moderator would drastically modify the response more than the una corda so, also in Italy sordino is still a piece of cloth that come in between the hammer and the strings, and it's what you find now in apartment upright pianos
Such culture in your words, and depth of understanding. Thank you
I don't think you can be sure that "sempre senza sordino" means you can't use the damper at all. Pedalling every chord but otherwise lifting the dampers is still arguably "sempre senza sordino". It can just mean using the pedal throughout the movement.
Yes, a perfectly possible reading (every note played with dampers raised) provided that the direction pertains to the damper pedal rather than the moderator.
There is evidence that in 1801 what we today call the moderator was called the sordino, which is the Italian word for a mute. Beethoven's Walther fortepiano was equiped with a sordino. The first page of the autograph manuscript of op 27 no 2 is missing; however, the first edition, which presumably was created from the autograph, used the word "sordino", whereas the second and subsequent editions use the word "sordini", which means dampers. So it is possible, if not probable, that Beethoven was instructing the player to play without the moderator, not without the dampers. Alas, we probably will never know for certain unless that missing first page turns up.
But would it work witth the harmonic pedal that FEURICH sells ?
Many years ago I worked with a teacher who was a fortepiano specialist. She was scornful about those who claim that Beethoven meant "sordini" when he wrote "sordino". Of course Beethoven knew the difference - he was not such a fool as to use the wrong word. Conclusion : he meant "don't use the moderator". I have heard present day experts say that he definitely did not mean this. Who can say?
Why only the first Part?
2:30 why.. Did you stop??? :o
So what about that third movement?
Sordini = dampers, sordino = moderator/mute. What did I miss?
See letter Beethoven to Zmeskall, una corda might be an option.
Why are there three pedals? Who do you think I am?- Victor Borge
Hmm ... how different does the third movement sound?
Voila the entire Sonata on a (copy of a)
similar ancient Walter piano: ua-cam.com/video/5oCsOomqvc0/v-deo.html
Sordino or sordina must not to be confused with dampers which literally translates to "smorzatori" or in a more colloquial lazy form can also be referred as "smorzi".
The sordino or sordina (can be both masc or fem) it's the piece of fabric that it's still available in almost every upright, activated with the central pedal which is usually not a sostenuto, and was available as a register in the Walter fortepianos. As far as I can tell sordino or sordina doesn't have a proper english translation.
I am interested in this explanation, but ...
Czerny in his Proper Performance of Beethoven's Works for the Pianoforte (1846?) understood senza sordino as without dampers, i.e. with the sustaining pedal, since he says it must be re-employed at each note in the bass. With the moderator, there would be no need for this. He also says that Beethoven was accustomed to employ it throughout the whole piece, except for the forte in bar 35.
In Piano sonata 12, op.26, there are several places where the instruction con sordini or senza sordini (plural) is given. Were these dampers or moderators? Czerny again comments, but just says Senza Sordino (Pedal), and comments that "even Beethoven, in his time, employed the effects of the pedal in a great variety of ways."
Is it possible that Czerny simply didn't know or had forgotten about the mechanism of early pianos, or was mistaken?
Where is the term con (or senza) smorzatori used as an instruction in a score? I confess I have never seen it, but my experience is limited.
In any case, the instruction con sordino on the FF chords in the presto surely rules out the moderator?
P.S. Czerny describes the moderator in his chapter on pedals (op.500 Piano School, English version (1840) part 3), and calls it the Muffle or Buff-pedal or Piano-pedal: "by moving of a strip of cloth situated between the hammers and strings, it causes the tone to become weak and of a flute-like quality." In the Italian version it is simply called the Piano. The Damper Pedal in Italian is indeed the Smorzatore.
@@dorette-hi4j in my opinion there are two things to take into account:
1. people tend to be literal and tassonomic since no more than 20-30 years now. Before that date people were more prone to be descriptive but less rational. Being that descriptive and sometimes evocative it's part of the 19 century culture. This is the reason why Czerny didn't feel forced to adopt a specific jargon like we are used today and described the same thing with different words or settled to adapt similar things into a more generic concept.
2. It's quite evident that Czerny had to adapt the performance practice to the new better performing instruments that abandoned some features (like the sordino) in favor of other more performing and more controllable like the 1C. During the 19 century grand pianos were almost all already set up like current ones, with the "piano" pedal or "una corda" pedal, the "forte" pedal or "tre corde" pedal. But the sordino disappeared from grands. Also the sustain in a modern piano is so much longer that you also have to adapt the performance style. In my opinion we must consider the Czerny adaptation almost as relevant as transcribing from harpsichord to piano, even if a fortepiano is quite more similar to a modern piano than an harpsichord. And this of course means to don't take his instructions as slavishly.
@@dorette-hi4j p.s. in a modern upright the "piano" pedal moves the hammers closer to the strings, in a modern grand the same pedal moves the hammers left so they hit only one string in the trichord section. Similar effect, different technical approach.
In an upright the muffler (sordino -> muffler it's a meaningful translation) is still available, in a grand there's nothing like a muffler, and it's no longer intended to be a timbre register like it was in a Walter fortepiano.
In my opinion this is an evidence that it's still accepted that "piano" effect could be obtained in many different technical ways, and sordino was an accepted one until modern instruments were built.
Would be interesting what Tom Beghin thinks about Wim Winters tempi remarks on Authentic Sound here in youtube.
Lugubrious.
Wim Winters is a quack. Trying to sell pseudo-historical makey-uppey BS. He is manipulating and twisting and taking out of context so called "historic evidence" to fit his ridiculous ideas. He makes lots of money of it.
No real music historian takes him serious and his hypothesis has already been debunked many times with hard solid evidence. Wim winters is the musical equivalent of a flat-earther.
@@Herr_Flick_of_ze_Gestapo I think you are a little bit biased.
@@zugzwang2007 Concerning whom?
@@Piflaser I have withdrawn the remark, but should say that I am disappointed by the cavalier twists that people on UA-cam take with the evidence, whether it relates to sonority or tempo. As we know from Czerny, Beethoven was given to playing the whole of this movement with the "shifting pedal" so that the discussion here of the metallic pantaleone stop is completely off the point. When Beghin talks about Beethoven indicating that the piece is to be played "in the old way" the circularity is obvious. We know also that Czerny himself wrote that the sustaining pedal should change with the harmony ("must be changed with each note in the bass") and, although it is not explicit from these precise words that this was his memory of Beethoven's practice, the chapter in which he gives this instruction is about "the right way" to play Beethoven. Regarding the tempo proposals of Wim Winters, these seem ungrounded in contemporary evidence and, given the limited sustaining power of the instruments of 1801, even more perverse than they would be if the proposal had been to argue for still slower tempi on the modern grand. I would imagine that if the piece were allowed to unfold for, say, 20 minutes, the blurring of harmony would be sufficiently reduced even on the Steinway to allow the pedal to stay down the whole movement through. Given the "cut" time, and instruments from before the age of the iron frame, however, the arguments favour a more fluid version of Adagio, taking less than 9 and three-quarter minutes. Perhaps not quite as fluid (or as damply pedalled) as Tom Beghin.
I prefer trying to recreate the original effect on modern piano, 1/4 pedal, pianissimo (especially left hand). It is not impossible, but yes hard to manage
Or use Pianoteq
Hans Meiser what’s pianoteq?
@@fernandoserico77
A Virtual Instrument Software that used physical Modelling to emulate various "Clavier" Instruments from Harpsichords, Clavichord to old Pianofortes by Walter etc to modern Grand Pianos like Steinway, Grothrian or Steingraeber.
Because this Technique uses no Samples you can adjust nearly everything with a mouseclick
From different temperaments to finetuning of every hammer and many aspects inbetween.
www.pianoteq.com
it's still possible to play this on a modern piano, just with careful half pedalling and whatnot. just listen to schiff playing it
How wide is an octave on this instrument? Much narrower than a modern piano?
Now there is the question of tempo. I'm really not sure Beethoven would have play so fast. Probably as slow as he did in the modern piano
No playing it too slow is a modern invention.
@@Herr_Flick_of_ze_Gestapo I'm really not sure about that one! 😀 And ... Ever heard of double beat theory as example?
it is simple. Instruments with more resonance should be played slower, instruments with less resonance should be played faster. It is 100 percent sure that Beethoven's piano had less
pls remember; 4/4 alla breve
The fortepiano sounds almost like a guitar
In which language the word "Mondschein" is?
German.
@@origineo oh thanks👍
idanMeiri its pretty obvious because Beethoven was like Most other famous composers german.
Your German pronunciation was quite nice :)
Schiff discusses this important issue of the damper pedal in this piece of music. Having grown up using the pedal up and down in pulses, my inclination is to reject Beethoven's apparent request to use it for the whole first movement without letting it go once. I also had it in mind to check (at some point) whether poor Beethoven was advanced in deafness to such a degree that by the time he finished this masterpiece his hearing really was shot? I don't know. I am imagining that it was very diminished and that if he really had the ability to hear all of the sounds he would have reconsidered the pedal down instruction. I don't know......its a touchy subject.
fred houpt did you watch the damned video? It was composed for a very different instrument from the modern piano. It responded differently and was constructed differently
@@The_SOB_II Yes, I did watch the "damned" video. I will watch it again because you figure that I am confusing the older pianos with the modern ones. When I have time I'll watch the damned thing again.
Clearly he was right with 'damper' because it's one damper block.
It's magnificent... except when the player starts using 𝘳𝘶𝘣𝘢𝘵𝘰. Virtually everybody does it (as Beghin does here), but it still makes me grit my teeth when I hear it in what is presumably supposed to be a period performance, on a period instrument.
Rubato is well known in the classical period. People even warned against excessive use of it, but described the correct use. For instance, J.-L. Adam, Professor of Piano at the Paris Conservatoire, wrote a piano method published in 1804. Here is what he says:
"Quelques personnes ont voulu mettre en vogue de ne plus jouer en mesure, et d’exécuter toute espèce de musique comme une fantaisie, prélude ou caprice. On croit par là donner plus d’expression à un morceau et on l’altère de manière à le rendre méconnaissable. Sans doute l’expression exige qu'on rallentisse ou qu’on presse certaines notes de chant, mais ces retards ne doivent pas être continuels pendant tout un morceau, mais seulement dans quelques endroits où l’expression d’un chant langoureux, ou la passion d’un chant agité exigent un retard ou un mouvement plus animé. Dans ce cas c’est le chant qu’il faut altérer, et la basse doit marquer strictement la mesure."
This from of rubato is exactly what Chopin taught.
Loud speaking, quiet instruments.
Wie schade, dass die Mondschein-Sonate hier so schnell endet...
is there a chance that Beethoven wanted a blur sound but not that blur as played here.. could he had written "Senza Sordino" to emphasize blur and let people figure it out. Harmonies change too fast to play Senza Sordino" non stop. What if he avoids the term "Sordini" for a reason? And his biographer, would he not have noted that the piece is paraphrased with piano evolution, instead of just saying that Beehtoven's markings are no longer valid?
Despite some rehabilitation in recent years, Schindler has generally not been taken as very reliable (although he obviously had an awful lot of first-hand Beethoven to write about). Since the piece dates from over 20 years before Schindler became Beethoven's secretary, anything he had to say about it was likely more autobiographical reminiscence than biographical.
Play it at the right speed. Double beat please.
Legend in portuguse please
Cannot believe it took google 4 years to recommend this for me, a piano technician with a piano performance degree. Panopticism is so misleading, by the state, by capitalists.
Though a fan I never understood Gould's staccato imitation of the harpsichord with Bach's C major prelude. You explained my reservations about it. Thank you.
It might be observed many vertical pianos have a middle pedal that functions in such a way that felt is lowered between the strings and the hammers that in spite of a metal string frame could accomplish some of the special effects described typical of period grand pianos, while not containing metal string frames that greatly augmented sustain in pianos generally at the time, vertical, and horizontal.
Nevertheless, the metal string frames did not transform pianos into instruments without sound decay. Perhaps vertical pedals without a sostenuto middle pedal-most verticals today-featuring potential for lowering felt between the strings and hammers, better could duplicate the effects Beethoven sought in the first movement of op 27 # 2.
Adagio, but most people make it ''Andante'' !
It was written by Beethoven ALLA BREVE.
Editors are criminals, since Beethoven's death they ignore the original signe.
@@qzrnuiqntp Where did you find this source?
@@yoliv2469All the modern critical editions give alla breve for this piece.
Furthermore, even if it would be not indicate, this piece is WRITTEN alla breve!
pls. remember "alla breve", so you count "one two" in a bar.
I think Beethoven would have loved the modern piano.
He would've hated it... With the beautiful norway spruce being replaced with cheap cyprus spruce, equal temperament ruining harmonies, not to mention the slow drudging action of the modern piano. I'm sure Beethoven, and many other great conposers would be appalled at the way we have ruined what used to be the most beautiful instrument.
He would have loved the dynamic range, surely.
@@ethelryan257 but probably not the uniformity of tone color. also, the action is very deep. it takes years of practice to play something basically well on a modern grand. and the results are 2-dimensional unless you have somebody like richter who can squeeze blood out of that stone through 8 hours of practice a day and a great musical mind. thousands of young people throwing their lives away on competitions to play bland music on an instrument that the music was not written for! the purpose of an instrument is to reduce the friction between a performer's mind and what sounds like can create. heavier actions, wider keyboards, uniformity of tone color all do the opposite. you have to work hard around them, and the result is not that good anyways. this is a travesty and im glad that people started replicating period pianos. no wonder children hate piano lessons. the modern piano is so boring!
@@raisinbrahms5872 Damn salty and bitchy much?
I heard that Beethoven wanted something like the modern piano. It was never invented in his time sadly.
Very interesting, well played BUT the semiquavers in the right hand must be played together with the last triplet quaver of the left hand !
Chopin still wrote this rythm this way in his polonaise-fantaisie in 1848!
To play this note after is a nonsense. They would have been written like demisemiquavers to specify they are to be played as semiquavers of the triplet in the left hand. .
Interesting take... I’ve definitely seen some Schubert where the dotted rhythm is clearly intended for triplets.
What makes you so sure that Beethoven intended it thus? I’m eager to hear more justification than one Chopin piece decades later. Thanks!
That's really a good question, because the answe is not as simple : "because that's the normal way at this time to play that rythm".
There are too main facts :
1) the notation of the triplet with a little 3 under the notes didn't exist at the time, so the notation quaver + semiquaver of a triplet is always notated as a dotted semiquaver plus a half semiquaver.
Many treatises explain that when the rythm given by the accompaniment is triplets, the dotted rythm is to be played like that.
2) Some theorists and musicians said that the rythm should be played "as written"s, or perhaps (that's how I interpret that statement), the short note as a half semiquaver of the triplet quaver.
We can conclude that it depends on the author, period, style, genre, the expression, etc...
In this particular case, I'm certain of my interpretation because the tempo notated by Beethoven is alla breve, so much more faster than we usually hear that piece, and as the phrase is a lyric one (this is the crucial point), the short note must be played long enough to have a vocal quality, enough expression and weight. This is the only way to play that rythm in a lyrical context.
But if people nowadays prefer something closer to a martial art shot in a sung phrase, well... I won't argue for a question of taste! :D
The "fast" interpretation of the notation is a good one in pieces like gigues of the Bach (father and sons), where rythm and energy are the main characteristic of the lines.
The "slow" one is great even without accompaniment in triplets in vocal parts like, for example in italian operas of Bellini, Donizetti... Where the expression would be weird with a real short note, where the suppleness of the phrase is more convincing. We can read the rythm like this if we keep in mind that the modern notation of triplet didn't exist at the time...
One more example : the famous choirus piece "Va pensiero" by Verdi!
It is surely of interest that Czerny, writing with explicit first-hand reference to Beethoven's own playing of the piece, and within a decade of Beethoven's death, says that the semi-quaver must be struck after the last note of the triplet.
@@zugzwang2007 Indeed very interesting, where can I found that quote please?
What could make sense is that at moderate speed, the melodic line is most easily separate from the accompaniment with that short note played slightly after the last of the triplet, as would do a singer, especially an operatic one. The normal thing would be to play the notes together, but it might be more efficient this way to have a more expressive melodic line, still, to play this note too late sounds awkward and a little bit ridiculous to me, especially when the next beat is delayed.
@@qzrnuiqntp The discussion is in a chapter on "the right way" of playing Beethoven (Chapter II of Volume 4). The specific text is at p51 of the original edition (Diabelli) and on p49 of the first English edition (London, 1839). Both are available from IMSLP.
isn't a damper the same as una corda?
Lissen:
ua-cam.com/video/vPqVzC-scVk/v-deo.html
Moonshine Sonata lol
It's like he doesn't like newer pianos
So don't I.
.
THIS SAID THE MODERATOR IS "SORDINO", BEETHOVEN WAS SAYING TI PLAY THE PIECE QUIETLY WITHOUT THE MODERATOR BECAUSE THE SORDINO(MODERATOR ) CHANGES THE TIMBER AND BRETHOVEN DIDIN'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN, I FEEL SO SORRY FOR ALL THE PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY LEARNT SOMETHING FROM THIS MAN WHO DOESN'T GET HIS INFORMATION RIGHT
@@amedeofabris1268 I am really drawn to this theory of the piece. Apparently it was advocated in the 1895 edition of Grove's dictionary, which proposed that "sordino" (in the singular) was a reference to the moderator stop. If the indication at the beginning of the piece had said "pp ma senza sordino" the idea would be even more appealing. Sadly, this does not seem to fit with the detailed indications for pedalling in the finale, where Beethoven marks the two sforzato chords at the end of bar 2 "senza sordino" and then immediately writes "con sordino" at the beginning of bar 3 (and so on). It is difficult to believe that such rapid alternations of the moderator would have been possible, as it was normally a hand-stop rather than pedal-operated, and both hands are fully-occupied at this point. (Of course, in a much later style of playing, briefly releasing the left pedal to allow for a more brilliant sf would have been quite normal). Regrettably, these considerations suggest also that Beethoven used "sordino" and "sordini" as interchangeable terms for the dampers, and there is no evidence that he knew the word "smorzatore".
That's a good point but at beethovens' time the moderator was activated with your left knee so your hands would be free and "smorzatori" is the word damper but that's just the translation in fact the term is never used in time signature if he don't want you to use the pedal or the right knee lever he will just not write "Ped." Under the staff But they wouldn't write it at the beginning of the score, plus "pianissimo (pp) ma senza sordino" with sordino=damper just sounds ridiculous! I mean "very soft BUT WITHOUT DAMPERS" like, its not harder to play softer without the damper lever activated
@@amedeofabris1268 The point would be that the direction translates as "very soft but without the moderator" where the "but" is an indication that the player is not to take the easy way to play softly, and that the clear sound of the hammers is required, rather than with the felt. So "ma" would (on this account) be strengthening your theory compared with the "and" that is written in. But the third movement markings - and the character of the music there - make this seem quite improbable, unfortunately.
@@zugzwang2007 I'm back 3 years later, first of all apologizing for the tone in the original comments, I was a dumb teenager probably wanted to make a scene, secondly very simply, in Italy in historical instruments we refer to the moderator as "sordino", and always has been the case in Italian language and every language internationally aside english (or better, modern english), the official name for the moderator pedal or lever was sordino even in german and still is called so today by enthisiasts and those who study these instruments, lets also mention the fact than when in those days thry started making fortepiano with 6 pedals that had both a moderator pedal officially named "sordino" and a "doppio sordino" with acted as double the function, the moderator was still called "sordino" even in those late fortepianos which had both the "una corda"(modern left pedal) and the moderator like many later fortepianos by e.g. conrad graf.
Also the damper pedal was never referred to as dampers both in Italian and German, actually the same word was the direct translation of the moderator function in German (dämpfer) , not only, the indication "con sordino" in every other piece where is indicated and always translated(when translated) as "mit dämpfer" in german, always meant with moderator and no one ever had or has any different opinion today, so much that all the pieces that presented such indication today have it interpreted as using the una corda pedal, the sustain pedal was always referred to as "pedale" in italian and "die pedale"in the German of the time and as the composers referred to it (as the modern is also das pedal) and the function was always indicated (if not with" Ped.") With "sostenuto" or "con pedale", in both languages called pedal even when it was still a knee levers because it required for you to raise the heel of your foot, therefore still considered a podal function.
Also the moderator stop in fortepianos (and not fortepiano spinets like he shows for hand stops) from Mozart times did not have hand activated moderator stops (not to be confused with the harpsichord lute stop which was hand activated)but knee levers or pedals later on, this goes for beethovens personal fortepiano as well, this solves the sforzato problem.
As for the "e"(and) instead of the "ma" (but) which was my mistake and I apologise, I still find it to make complete sense as it is an addition, "to be played all piano and without the moderator" which in an instrument like that would be very worth while specifying for the fact that it significantly reduces the resonance and would therefore not require beethoven to write "delicatissimamente e senza sordino " and would just write "con dordino e sostenuto" or "delicatissimamente e sostenuto" very delicately and with the pedal pressed (and you either use or not the moderator).
Also the indication of without sordino can refer only to the first movement only, as the second movement is largely pauses and staccatos and the third has specific pedal indications throughout the piece "Ped.", also both the second and third movement cannot be played "delicatissimamente" because of fp indications in the 2nd mov and the 3rd mov is mostly forte and agitato.
I also went to check where this idea of sordino as dampers is found and it seems to be strictly an English speaking countries conception, in the rest of Europe this does not seem to be a matter discussion as we mostly do not translate the words from the original Italian and certainly do not the Germans, as I have heard fortepianists such as Andreas staier often refer to Das sordino rather than using the translation, and use Das pedal for the sustain.
It seems to me that this conception of the sordino as dampers of the sustain pedal comes from an old problem of trying to translate the meaning of certain indications to functionalities of the modern piano that it doesn't have, especially because no one cared obout period instruments before Wanda landowska and Karl richter came along, so the solution was to take the literal meaning of the sordino (which is better translated as deafener) and apply it to the only thing that physically silences the strings in a modern piano, since the left pedal does not come in contact with the strings in any way.
I mean the reason why we I was probably so angry was that this was never a matter of discussion in the fortepiano world as I had known it and it was a fact taken for granted, and so I took it as someone just lazily not doing research and saying in a video that the "almost certainly the composer meant this" which I took offensively.
But I've come to find out that in foums it is actually a matter of discussion and I guess there are musicologists who believe so as well, the only thing that gets me is that the dilemma is specific for this piece only.
To finish I will also like to add that every instrument has a sordino accessory which acts as a silencer, and also in this case "sordino" was originally (and tecnically still is )the official term to refer to these internationally.
In these cases the indication is "ouvert" for brass instruments (the sordino in this case is the bell) and "senza sordino " or "senza serranda" for string instruments (the sordino here is the accessory you put on the strings tho limit the resonance) .
Moonlight imagery is not entirely true.....Beethoven did not name it so .....adopted much later .....and skewed interpretation ever since
The application of the term "moonlight" to this sonata has ruined people's idea of this piece. As you state, Beethoven did not apply the term "moonlight", and would probably be appalled at the traditional performance of this movement today.
I don't think he would be appalled. We have to do some changes to the music so that the music works on our new instruments. I think he would play quite different then we do. Most pianists play Beethoven's music way to fast. I think that would be the biggest beef Beethoven would have.
That's true of alot of music because of this idea people have that you are mor of a virtuoso if you play fast.
It’s tragic rather than scenic. The original sketches for csharp minor sonata had Don Giovanni theme in it (funeral march) with the same dotted motif.
The definition of virtuoso is basically 'play fast'. I would say, that people think they'll be more popular if they play fast.
Is this some kind of disorder or what? Why can’t he match both hands at the same time?
I think your tempo is much too fast. Listen to Wim Winter videos to understand what I mean.
ple remember "alla breve" - you count "one two" in a bar.
My theory for the singular instead of plural for damper is that in german, Dämpfer ist the singular and plural for the word damper, and Beethoven was apparently known not to have been that perfect at other languages. So my assumption is he instinctively applied german grammar to italian words because he might not have known better
Too much talking, not enough playing. Also video volume needs to be adjusted for fortepiano.
"Moonlight" is in my top 10 greatest piano comps of all time. Not complex or Technical but incredibly nuanced. Today it's often butchered by high-gain “MEP-classical” metal guitarists and the like - a joke.
...but... ....coito interruptus!
Good commentary . Poor sound engeneering !
Wtf is damper?
Too fast
No it is not. Beethoven composed it like that. You are simply used to modern interpretations on modern bombastic instruments at modern speed. which is 99 out of 100 times way too slow
pls. remember "alla breve" - you count "one two" in a bar.
blabla