Proper saddle height and position is indeed a must in riding. Also don't forget to consider the right saddle, to fully optimize the balance on power transfer and comfort.
Yeah, Matt Bottrell on my TT bike specifically for ironman. Combined with replacing the front end poles the entire package made a lot of difference. It was quite specific for long distance, but didn't seem to make much concession to comfort.
I did DIY fit. Bought a guide written by a bikefitter, webcam and downloaded (free) software to record and measure my joint angles. Very enlightening process. Just to know the numbers and principles of bikefit is vital information to understand anything about bikefit. Before that i just adjusted something and had no idea how it would affect everything else. If i was able to resolve some issue it was pure change. What even most basic bikefit does is set bike into certain set-state and give you numbers on it. From there on you can do adjustments and have something to fall back into if things go bad.
Si is a great presenter, kept asking good questions which made this video a lot better than other bike fit videos I have watched! Keep rocking the glasses!
I also think Si genuinely was interested in knowing these things as well. Understanding why he was making these changes. All useful information to have as a cyclist.
I am a seasoned cyclist, 68 y.o. although in denial ;-) and converted to 165mm cranks and couldn't be happier. We lose our hip flexion with age. I rode 175 cranks for decades...I am exactly the same size as Simon...same arm and leg length...same 186cm height aka 6'1"...I am American. This bike fitter is impressively smart. Crank length changes gearing and not speed. I in fact asked Sheldon Brown this question years ago and he said the same thing. In fact, most can turn a higher RPM on shorter cranks more comfortably which makes power generation at steady state faster because Power is proportional to RPM with same pedal force. Simon is a great cyclist. Better than 99% who do it and yet, look how open minded he is to his saddle height and setback. Me too and I have been at it longer than Simon. Saddle height is extremely nuanced...how aggresive you ride and how closed your hip angle and how much you ankle...Simon ankles more than me even though I tend to toe point a bit like Simon. I largely adjust saddle height based upon feel and eye toward knee angle at bottom of the pedal stroke. Don't fall in love with your saddle height. There maybe a better saddle height and setback for you.
All of this is just a science of belief. The same like while ago was believed that 25mm tires were the most optimal for Tour de France and today scientifically believed that 32mm are the most optimal. The same like it was scientifically believed that chicken eggs rises cholesterol, and today’s scientific belief states that chicken eggs actually reduce cholesterol.
@@tongotongo3143 Well said. As many things in life if waxing philosophic. Take saddle to bar drop. Greater bar drop closes the hip angle. Hip angle relates to crank length and saddle height including setback. A giant, insoluble puzzle subject to interpretation. Consider a highly optimized TdF rider. Why doesn't every single TdF rider ride with 1 full inch more saddle to handlebar drop? Aerodynamics are king on a racing bike. Less rider frontal area typically translates into greater speed...until it doesn't. When are drops rendered unusable? Why did 7 TdF winner Lance Armstrong...they all doped...why did Lance ride with only 75mm of saddle to bar drop and rode one size up from his average height a 58cm? Because he was faster on that bike will open hip angle and more stretched out. There is no ideal formula for bike fit or saddle height. The Lemond formula doesn't work for many including me.
It’s pleasure to meet a wise man these days. Yes, Le Mond formula isn’t the most optimal for me either. There are other better formulas, but all of them, and people who implement them, do not talk about the fact that when a real alive human body sits on a bicycle, the saddle collapses from 5mm up to 1cm, and the shoe sole also brings from 6mm up to 1cm variable! Those together can bring almost up to 2 cm difference, and this is a lot. My believe is, the best saddle height adjustment is to sit very straight on a saddle with your shoes on, and rise your saddle very precisely up until your shoes’ heels just barely touch the pedal when your leg is fully extended. Shoes on and leg fully extended are the key moments.
@@tongotongo3143 with all that said just get a bike fit to take out the guessing game. Plain and simple. Not many cyclists even the seasoned one have great body awareness.
It’s nothing to do with body awareness. I have developed my own saddle height formula based on human biomechanics and mathematics. But for ordinary people I just explain it more simple ways.
I’d volunteer but the cost to ship me and my bike to the uk. The us to the uk trip might be a bit pricey. Jokes aside yea I agree. All my by 2 new bike in 20 years maybe to big I don’t have a saddle higher then my bars . But I’m comfortable for 30 to 40 miles. But I bet I’d benefit from a proper fit
@niallshakeshaft1524’s-comment/post “I would be interested to see a beginner / someone who isn’t an ex pro go through a bike fit. But an interesting video nonetheless the less!”: A ex-pro = someone who has been-through professional-level bike-races. That’s the-only-difference between Si and alot-of-us. They’re (ie. Professional-cyclists and Semi-pros and Retired-pros) just People, just like us.
There was a wonderfully positive frustration sitting underneath this conversation. The tension of two completely valid and correct points of view interacting and layering on top of each other, laying foundations to explore new and improved territory.
A really good video and you know why? Because Si was actually going through that fit and asked all the questions he genuinely had, this is what makes it so interesting. Not a polished version of ‘what-can-learn-when-you-go-to-a-bike-fit’. I really, really enjoyed this video - thank you Si.
Great video! This inspired me to check on my position, carried out the Lemond method, raised saddle by almost 1cm, moved saddle forwards, went out for a 30 mile ride. The difference in comfort and power output was incredible, felt more "in charge of my bike", if that makes sense! It's a reminder that we always need to review our set up every now and again, and don't be afraid to experiment as long as you record the changes you make.
I have had the best luck using a variation of the Lemond method called the 109% method. The logic is that the 88% measurement to the bottom bracket in the Lemond does not take into account crank length. So multiply your inseam in cm by 1.09 and instead of measuring to the bottom bracket instead measure to the spindle of the pedal. This is very useful for me as I currently have different length cranks on one of my favorite bikes. I've been much happier since I started using this method.
I'm a fan of trying to get things in the ball park on a trainer, then going for a ride with a multi tool and making slight adjustments based on real world riding feel. That to me creates the "perfect" fit.
I definitely appreciate Simon trying to extract as much info as he could from Phil. I'm not sure this video actually helps me any more than any of the other saddle height videos, though I was excited to watch 27 minutes on saddle height. I know I've fallen into the trap of paying attention to the numbers, like using formulas and thinking about where my saddle "should" be, even though the formulas usually put it higher for me than is comfortable. Kinetic cycle (youtube) recommends heel on pedal with NO SHOES then going down 3-5mm and starting there, AND basing it on the shortest (physically or functionally) of your legs as you sit comfortably on the saddle, without dropping hip to get heel to pedal. Based on where Simon's heel was when he started this video, that would leave a good 3cm gap between his foot and the pedal. Quite a huge difference, and again speaks to the idea that there is a range of saddle heights for any person. I believe tending towards the low end of the range is best for me anyway, but someone else could feel different. Saddle height is definitely a cycling rabbit hole that I think people shouldn't mess with unless they are having pain.
What a great video. The discussion at the end about "ideal" saddle height, fit windows, and adjusting fit within that window based on how the rider feels is invaluable. Fantastic to have more info out there about flexibility in fit.
Fascinating! What an insight. I have just acquired Bauke Mollema's Trek Madone from 2022, 58cm frame, (his 3rd Madone actually so almost never ridden). There is only 1 cm difference in our heights and I only dropped the saddle 2 mm, however his bars are 38cm -13% 110mm. Not only do I feel unsafe on the bike I can't ride more than a 45 minutes in (t)his position without feeling total corporal strain (I'm 64 and Bauke is 36). I am changing the handlebars to 40cm -7% 100mm to match my other Madone. This experience brought home the unbelievable difference between how pros ride and how amateurs ride (I typically ride, per year, 10k-12k kms and 10k-15k metres of climb), and how body position and bike fit are very personally related to your goals and objectives as a cyclist.
I begin to say sorry for my bad english 😊. Thanks for this episode. It made me raise my saddle 1cm. Have been riding with the new saddle height since this episode came out. What I have noticed is that I am less fatigued in my inner or lower quads. I was a bit afraid that I would get pain in my knees. I also noticed that I can push myself more. So thanks 😊
7:50 brilliant that finally someone actually explains why this “heel on pedal” reference doesn’t always work. Every time I question my fit and research if it is correct I come back to these basic guidelines and then question why they don’t work for me
Very well done, ty. I'm 5'8" with 31" inseam, I have 3 racing bikes 50 cm , 51 cm, and 54cm. My reach is short. I put the seat forward as much as possible. My seat high very high. My leg is stretch all the way in the down, I want that power. If I come to a stop I have to get off seat. I don't mind because I like the power. I'm 57 years old, don't drive anymore, bike 20 minutes to work. And bike to do everything. I love it.
I got a Retül fit around 2010 when I was cycling daily. It’s the best thing I’ve ever bought for cycling. Made me faster and more comfortable. I know I should have had another one since, but the fit still works for me today over 12 years later.
HOW did I miss this one?! SO informative - I'm currently in a slow, but progressive march towards a much more efficient and comfortable saddle position, and I believe that you've given me the insight I've been looking for to get to the next rung on that ladder. Thanks SO much for this!
I did a lot of road riding in the mid 80s to 90s, and about 7 years ago took up riding again. I had a basic fit done to get cleat positions worked out. At the end of 2019 I got a new carbon bike and a full Retul fit done. First time I rode the new bike on the road, it felt like I had been riding it for years. Everything was in the right place. Absolutely amazing what they can do these days vs. back in the 80s.
what a fantastic "discussion" and demonstration of how 3D and computer bike fitting works and how it is only a guideline and not absolute truth on the topic.
I know there are a few watts to be gained by raising my saddle, but I'm not a racer and I am in a comfortable window where I can ride long rides without any joint pain in my current position. I went down in frame size to a 56 when I bought my Bianchi, however, because I had to accept that with age I was losing the flexibility to ride a 130mm slammed stem in a stretched out position. The best bike is the one you can ride comfortably, at the end of the day.
Great just to hear ,and take in all the tangential considerations. Bike comfort and optimal crank arm length , and for me in the end you are fitting to a "window" because you need to be comfortable in the drops as well.
Excellent, simply excellent, loved Si's approach and analysis. Also good to hear the opinions of such an experienced bike fitter, no dogma but instead a flexible approach based on experience, perfect 👍 Also nice to hear the good old heel in pedal baseline didn't get kicked into the weeds, as I've heard from one or two other so called experts, after all we all need a starting point right 🤔 Great stuff, bring on the next one...
My golden principle is to know saddle height above pedal (on seat tube line). For me, that's 876mm (34½"), and this is the figure I use on every bike I own regardless of crank length. From what I heard in the video, maybe I'm fortunate to have enough hip flexibility (despite my age, not because of it) to accommodate cranks ranging from 165mm to 175mm.
The science is fascinating. Thank you. One more bit to consider. I have different saddle heights for MTB and CX. I move more on the MTB, so it feels better to have it a few mm lower. High power output CX is more frequently sitting, MTB standing. It works for me. Sorry, don't own a road bike anymore.
Si, one thing you dropped from your summary was the consideration for physiological changes/compromises that some people (like me) have to deal with that changes the window. I personally have had 12 spinal surgeries (sports injuries) and lost me lower left leg (bad doctor). Obviously my back and neck don't flex normally and wearing a prosthetic leg have great impact. Fortunately for me, my bike shop worked hard to get me to where I could ride (shorter cranks, taller stem and stem angle) and I have made many adjustments over this past year as my comfort improved. I am using the Wahoo training programs and a Kickr for my indoor training and Garmin for outdoor. Tracking performance metrics as well as perceived comfort have helped me find the fit that works.
I'm curious as to why this wasn't tested at a threshold load. I find that saddle height affects my muscle recruitment a lot at higher loads; mainly not being able to use my glutes/hamstrings when the saddle height is wrong. It's hard to feel that when pedaling at a low effort.
Great video. The section at the end where Phil mentioned ageing and the need to reconsider your position was really pertinent to me. I got a new bike in my late 40s having ridden extensively (raced track, crits, TT and road, loads of very long-distance touring etc. so a LOT of miles) since childhood. When I was racing, I had quite an aggressive position - I'm very flexible, so a stretched out position used to be easy and comfortable. However, when I got the new bike, Paul Hewitt in Preston suggested a less aggressive position as befitted my advancing years. What a difference - more power without sacrificing any comfort, more than offset a slightly less aero position which, less face it, is not so important for 400km Audaxes when average speed is 20-25 kmph. So I looked at my position on my other bikes too as made changes all round.
Great video and goes to show the importance of a professional bike fit. I had one done for my main road bike and just something as simple as insoles in my cycling shoes changed my knee action and prevented injury.
The higher the better, like standing but without you holding up your weight. How much weight on your arms, problem most people have is the raise their Sadler’s without realising it’s probably moving their saddle back, then it changing which legs muscles you use and again changes weight on your arms. Also the length of your cranks and where you put your cleats all change everything. It also depends if you want power in the tops, hoods or drops. It could easily drive you crazy. Sitting back let’s your hamstrings pull back more. I have done this as I was using my quads and nearly no hamstrings apart from in hills which moves your saddle back.🙈🙈🙈 Pros aren’t necessary in the perfect position but they have trained their body in that position so it feels right. Longer crank lengths of give you more power out if the saddle. Lower revs are better for stress on your body(longer cranks). I again can pull back more on longer cranks, it can go back to which position you are going to ride in
Great vid coach. At 62 I am having to rethink my whole approach to position on my new Domane bike. I have never really understood all the variables that influence knee pain and kinda just pedalled on. I’m going to leave this to a pro bike fitter this time!
By chance I just did Retul about 2 weeks ago. Best money I’ve spent , far better than paying to shave grams off my ride. My saddle height went up considerably and my cleats adjusted to maximize my pedal stroke. I was also provided a printout of all my angles and measurements allowing me to transfer all my measurements to another bicycle if necessary. Highly recommended.
Yes, I have been fitted by a pro. But as I get older I can see the need for changes. For a long time I rode 175mm cranks (long legs and feet). Now I need to go shorter, and I can't bend over and reach as far on the bars. Part of this is age and part is riding less than I used to. This piece has encouraged me to re-examine my position and make some adjustments.
I've had 6 fits, BG, Retul, others etc... + several adjustments, all set my saddle too high, and did not correct my LLD because the numbers did not say anything was an issue. The BG fit said my sit bones were 114 mm instead of 124 mm which put me on a narrow saddle for years. All this this lead to fighting through extreme nerve pain, a disc bulge, asymmetric hip issues and SI joint pain. Then I started experimenting on my own and learn as much as I could about fitting, now I'm pain free after 10 years of issues, I am able to use a negative stem and had the best season ever. Lower saddle, wider saddle that is the right shape, arch support and some minor LLD correction.
I have a touring bike for outside the city, and a 1966 foldable 24 inch steel bike with short crancks for the shorter trips in the city. On this city bike I get to most places I need to go throuhghout the week. I put the saddle on my city-bike about an inch down, to see what it does to my legs. So my shorter trips I ride with a lower saddle with two gears with bent knees. I have the impression that this way my quads are getting stronger because they are doing work in different positions. I have started doing this because I think this helps with Ice Skating. I allso feel stronger on my touring bike when riding uphill. More torque in motorists words.
Great video on fitting and I completely agree with "the window" of getting into the correct position. I would really like to see Simon go with a crank swap test to the 170 length for a few months to compare. Thanks for the content!!!
I’ve never had a bike fit in my 40 years of cycling. I’ve no problem with them and often wondered if I should have a pro fit. What Si said about the type of cycling being of greater importance really resonated. I started off as a mountain bike racer in the 1980s and have raced and ridden road, cross and gravel bikes. Interestingly, I think Zwifting has pushed me towards a fit more than any other discipline. Also, Phil’s “micro-adjuster” v “micro-absorber” theory, has me firmly in the latter camp.
Saddle height and bikefit in general is a compromise, so to consider it a window is right. I know that with my current frame geometry I sit deep aero and lean too much on the front, although I have a 60 mm short stem, and it comes with numb hands from time to time. But it feels good in terms of pedaling and putting out power. I never had any injuries.
I use the heel method. I ride three bikes between my road, gravel and fat bike and each bike has a different pedal and each different shoe I wear has a different stack height. By going with the heel method I think I have basically the same knee angle on all three. So I do believe there's a proper window to fall within.
Angles and numbers are great! But what about the things that power your bike, your muscles. Wouldn’t it be more interesting to find out in what position you are achieving what would be the best firing pattern for your muscles for cycling? And then dialling that down to where you get the best bang for your buck for each muscle group?
This was very refreshing to watch. I’ve been doing this quite a while, I’ll be seventy two in April and have been cycling on and off my entire life. At the moment I’m laid up after knee surgery, so have seen a lot of U-tube videos. The amount of total charlatans out there is astounding. People set themselves up as some sort of expert or cycling guru, and in reality know little to nothing. Phill clearly does not fall into that category, interesting to listen too, confident in his knowledge with nothing to prove. Excellent.
Omg this was so insightful and helpful, i honestly don’t believe there’s such a perfect or ultimate position, since every time you go out for a ride your riding condition changes even your attitude, one day you feel like a Tour de France rider and some days you’re not feeling it or you just can find the power no matter what you do, however I really think there’s a happy medium for everyone, you just gotta find it and like Phil said…Adapt…I believe I found my happy medium ones I finally made the decision to get a bike fit and do the best I can with the best that they could fit me with…I did find out I need performance shoe inserts Thank you Si for an awesome video
Had a more involved(video with angles etc)bike fit a few months or more ago. Been riding road( came from MTB) since 2012. My Initial bike fit was the usual plumb line from knee to pedal axle type. Had the norm big drop from seat to handlebar, as per pro riders. But of course, I'm not, and never will be a pro rider. But it looked the same as most of my riding mates adopted position. As a 72 year old, I was looking to limit any injuries etc. that I could be building up, as I advanced in age. And also to get rid of a few minor aches that I used to get on 100 mile sportives. My best average speed on a 100 miler was 18.4mph over 101 miles, in 2017, as a 68 year old. I was more than happy with that. During the bike fit, amongst a few other adjustments, the seat was lowered. 'this is too low' I thought. But after while, it felt more comfortable, saddle felt better, and those little aches and niggles dissapeared. Winner. Who cares about looking 'more pro', to other cyclists. I loved riding my bike before, even with the aches & niggles, now I love it even more without the aches & niggles. Great video, by the way.
Crank length - ridden 175mm since year dot, well 1996, but based on this, will look at a shorter length for my next gravel bike build and marginal adjustments elsewhere. Mindbockling..
Saddle height should be measured from the center of the top of the pedal to the top of the saddle above the center of the rails (it's where your taint rests). Get that right then move your saddle all way forward and up to that measurement and go for a ride with your tools and move it slightly back and down incrementally until it feels perfect, while still retaining the original measurement from the pedal top to saddle top. 👌
I do hope that Dan is made fully aware about how amazing Si's ankles are 🙂 On a serious note, whilst this video was focusing on saddle position, a bike fit will also look at other aspects such as cleat position, stem height and reach. But I suspect these also fall into the same conclusion of 'be comfortable within a window of measurements because there isn't a 'holy grail' specific measurement'.
Everything is interlinked as Phil says - moving your saddle is part of finding the optimal riding position, but cranks and stem changes go hand-in-hand with it 👍
I'm pretty convinced that there's no perfect saddle height. I had a bike fit when I was cycling more/less 4-6 times a week, fit was perfect comfy and aero, but as soon as I got off the bike for 2 or more weeks due to life getting in the way, the perfect position became unsustainable for long periods on the bike.
@@TheAnimejosh as someone who has stopped riding for both long and short periods. This happens to me as well. I will often feel like I'm reaching to the pedals and feel uncomfortable. I'll drop the saddle and over time it starts to feel too low and I'll end up raising it again.
I think it is easier to sense when your saddle is getting too high rather than a bit too low. I’ve always used the heel on pedal method to get close then gradually raise it till it starts feeling too high. Then lower it till it no longer feels too high. If you can’t drop your ankles a little while pedaling it’s probably too high.
100%, i'd made my first Retul bf in 2013-2014 in Italy with some enthusiastic guys who hade been making it for themselves and pros and juniors - it was also amazing when we moved saddle forward and up. Especially it made my climbing so smooth like stepping on the stairs. Yes the opposite to quads muscles need to be trained more but the position and force distribution is great. Now I'm trying to replicate my bf on every bike (MTB, gravel and new road ones) and it works great. I tried to redo BF with different master and we've got a different part of the window (far backward and lower) and I don't liked it and returned to previous one... Also using powermeter to compare your output power against exact HR (or the opposite - equal power and diff. HR) to check the effectiveness)
Moving cleats, dropped heel or angled heel as well as Q factor will also interact with saddle height (and fore after position of saddle). Leg discrepancy aswell (shims needed). All major factors of pain.
Fascinating. Thank you, Simon, for this informative video. The questions you asked were exactly the ones I was thinking about. You both summed up this topic well, and as clear as can be. Once again, great job.
It’s been said by many others, but here is another comment asking for a new cyclist(not an ex-pro or a 5w/kg Ollie) going through this. It would be interesting to see how their body changes, or doesn’t, as you get their fit correct.
I've been riding for 30 years and only had a bike fit recently as I was comfortable in my setup which I have used for the last 25 years. However it was a bit of an eureka moment, in that although the changes needed to my setup were only minor, it instantly resulted in more comfort, easier and smoother pedalling action which translated into less stress on my muscles. Agree it's not for everyone though so I wouldn't say it's a must, and I also can't say with hindsight whether my original setup was actually fine, but as I got older it needed some tweaking, but I persevered with my original setup.
I think probably, as Si said, the "perfect" position varies with the type of riding, but even more so just the effort of riding that you're doing, and you want to put things where you're comfortable at the effort you'll be riding most of the time, while still not being too far off when you're at the extremes. If you set your saddle up to feel perfect when you're doing match sprints, it will probably feel a bit wrong when you go for a long ride at a lower effort, and vice versa. If you can set things up to feel good riding the way you ride normally, and still have room to adapt to riding the exceptional cases by shifting your position on the saddle, or using your ankles, etc, without getting too far out of form, then you're probably in a good spot. I also think that there's a lot more to be said for weight/force distribution than many bike fitters really account for, and how much a specific person can accommodate one limitation vs another. I know I find myself fighting that a lot, as a tall rider with very long legs for my height who also pedals fairly toe-down. A couple times I've gotten a fit from a bike shop when buying a bike, and it's always ends up where I feel like I'm falling off the front of the bike because they're trying to put me in a semi-aero position (which is fine), but focusing way too much on keeping an open hip angle, which puts too much weight on my hands. I've got tons of flexibility in my hips and lower back, so IMO, there's no real need to aim for such an open hip angle, at the expense of weight balance issues (which do bother me) I've discovered over time that I'm much more comfortable with a bit more setback, and a short and high front end, and longer cranks, which all shift my weight balance backward under normal pedaling loads, taking the weight off my hands/wrists, with the only "down side" being a closed hip angle which I'm totally fine with. It looks wrong to a lot of people, because they see the 100mm of spacers, and 60mm 30degree stem pointing up, and think that it's "not aero", but rarely do they notice that even with all that stack I've still got a ton of saddle to bar drop.
Great video. Where I think bike fit can be really useful for us mere mortals, is in defining the difference between ‘height’ of a person and ‘height of the upper body’ + ‘leg length’ of that same person, the two definitely not being the same. I’m 5’8” and if we left it at that, people would assume I should be riding a frame height of x, (which will then usually come with a standard top tube length), and using a saddle height of y. However, (and I didn’t know this until I joined the army and had to have certain uniforms tailored for me), I’ve got an upper body equivalent to someone who’s between 5’10” and 6’, so ergo my leg length equates to someone who is 5’6” or even 5’4”. This would massively change the in-shop ‘guesstimated’ choice of frame size, of saddle height and of saddle fore/aft position. I’ve adjusted everything as best I can DIY. I’m comfortable (which at 50, and living in the Alps with lots of long long climbs) is more important to me than aero, or speed etc. But as body parts lose flexibility and after a foot op, I think I’m going to invest in a bikefit, or be absolutely sure of where I should be positioned on my bike. I just hope the advice isn’t to buy a new frame because I absolutely love my bike 😂
I am 196cm tall with 94cm inseam. I used 175 cranks for along time. I made bikefit with my 175 cranks, but I was recommended to ride 180 cranks. I tried 180 and it became much better than 175. The ride became more powerful and more comfy. The only moment was that my knees were bending a lot at 12 hours pedal position. Then I tried 175 cranks once more, I did not like them at all. Now I am going to try 177,5 cranks. And I am sure I will not ride short cranks any more. It is need to understand, that crankы length depends on length ratio of inseam and hip length to accomodate the best bending angles in hip and ankle.
If you've been riding for a long time at the same saddle height/position with no issues, it's probably a very good idea to just leave things where they are. That said, if you absolutely have to make a mistake with setting the saddle height, set it too low rather than too high. If you set it too low, your performance will suffer, and you will tire more easily. If your saddle height is too high, you may suffer serious injuries from which it will take months or years to recover.
I got a Retul fit last year. New bike and I felt all kinds of cramped. It has dome wonders for my position on the bike. As to a perfect fit, I am not sure there is one. There might be one, but flats vs climbing vs downhill often have you in a different position. When I got my fit done we talked about the window idea, and he put me at the extreme end of it and we adjusted until I felt comfortable within it.
I had a bike fit and the fitter measured that I had very tight hamstrings. Much less than the 75 degrees that Si has. My saddle height had originally been set based on a cyclist with normal hamstring flexibility. The bike fitter lowered my saddle height and that has resulted in less discomfort.
My saddle is so high that I have less than an inch of post in my frame, a frame btw my fitter said was too big for me by .5 cm. Fitters are crazy. My seat is back a little, with a slight downslope. This is perfect for me for long rides with variable wind directions. I drop the saddle on certain rides that demand more clearance for my bum when out of the saddle (twisty, technical routes for example.) But for long slogs that include cross and headwinds, I sit high so when I'm in the drops, I'm aero. The ride matters. There is no perfect saddle height, only one that feels good, and that feel good feeling varies by route.
I think there probably is a 'perfect' fit for a person at a particular time, but it depends on a whole lot of variables including their fitness, flexibility, how and what they ride, etc. Your fit, therefore, would be different for a pro vs an amateur, and for road vs mountain vs time trial or track. And it would change over time as your fitness and flexibility change. So the window makes sense. Perhaps the real answer is that you need to play with your setup from time to time making small adjustments to improve a relevant aspect (power vs comfort, for example) and ride it for a week or two to see if it has the desired effect. Up and forward if you want to be more Aero, try a shorter crank if you can, etc. I think actually I might try that last one as I'm a tall rider (almost as tall as Connor) who's used 175mm cranks my whole cycling life and what Phil said there at the end was intriguing.
I think the wrong question is being asked here rather than starting with saddle height and the fore and aft I think you should take a look at the cleats and see how those are set up that's gonna have a huge impact on how you ankle and how you interact with the saddle how it feels and the overall saddle height as well as how the bars sit in relative space to the bike. This video was super awesome and especially as a fit nerd some good info put only a small part off the puzzle. What if you put a longer stem the the rider is pulled forward if they are not flexible etc. It's like pulling kn a spiderweb. Great video tho. Love it. More fit video GCN plz!!!
Good point. Another interesting video would be trying a mid-foot cleat position. Some people promote that, but it would seem to really complicate the rest of the fit because you would essentially move everything forward.
Great video. Maybe a nice follow up would be a video for people practicing various disciplines, like road and mtb, gravel, to go through the adaptations to consider, like frame measures and geometry, and crank length for instance. I am sure you guys have enough experience with that.
This would be interesting to be 'fit' for a road bike, then what would need to be done to a normal cyclist (normal proportions) for a gravel bike, mountain bike, etc.
Having worked in the trade for nigh on 20 years - I can attest to differences due to the tools used, and to philosophies of different fitters. I’m sure there has been evolution in those philosophies - but that will be dictated by the fitter and how “up to speed” or set in their ways they are. ;) My own personal fit has changed significantly over the 20 years (I’m now 44) due to changes in physiology and riding style/frequency.
I got a bike fit when I bought my first road bike a couple of years ago. About 18 months later, I went for another bike fit on the same bike - the result was my seat post was raised 35mm and my saddle moved back about 20mm. Bike fits aren't always perfect and bike fitters are all different. It's important to try and get a good one though. Try and do some research into the fitter and look at their testimonials. I would also recommend speaking to your local bike store to see if they have any recommendations or fellow cyclists. Unfortunately Phil Burt isn't available to those of us outside the UK.😂
You also have to take into consideration our bodies change ie flexibility muscle mass I definitely have a different seating position now in my 60 years than I did in my 20 ( time haha) and I.used the lemond position and then what feels comfortable
Very insightful,I've seen Phil on Katie Kookaburra'a channel,always on point,... would be interesting to see a performance difference before and after a fit,with maybe the lady who rode a super bike for the first time with Manon last year,she was great ,thanks for all you do!
Getting a Mountain Bike was revelatory. With the drop post. Now I adjust my height according to my needs. I now realize I don’t have one optimal height, I have several according to conditions. I have a slightly short left leg, and so I can optimize for all needs. Also, since it is an eMTB, I can crank assist in low rpm settings taking a long of stress off the knees. I wish all bikes had drop seats.
I seek the maximum power producing position where I find myself enough forward of the crank that I can get in front of the crank and push ever so slightly back. My reach can’t be too far forward but instead balanced for comfort with speed.
i have my bike fit last year using Idmatch bikelab.. according to the assessment of the bike fitter my saddle height should be around 67,8cm.. i tried riding with it but i never get used to it coz it felt very high.. dropped it by 1 cm and it became very comfortable :)..
Had a “professional fit”. I had been riding for years, >100,000 miles. Got a new bike after several years of not riding. Set up the position by feel. The “professional fitter” did not change any of my setup by more than 10 mm. Seemed not very significant.
Great vid si. My ethos has always been trial and error. Also at different times and different scenarios we might want to adjust within our window to optimise... I for one am going to try an incremental raise tonight on the trainer to see how it feels by 5mm... And go from there.
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Have you ever had a bike fit to find your optimal saddle height and riding position?
When I got my gravelbike I had a bike fit. Good decision so far. Meanwhile I changed some things. So I think I will have another bike fit next year.
Proper saddle height and position is indeed a must in riding. Also don't forget to consider the right saddle, to fully optimize the balance on power transfer and comfort.
Yeah, Matt Bottrell on my TT bike specifically for ironman. Combined with replacing the front end poles the entire package made a lot of difference. It was quite specific for long distance, but didn't seem to make much concession to comfort.
I did DIY fit. Bought a guide written by a bikefitter, webcam and downloaded (free) software to record and measure my joint angles. Very enlightening process. Just to know the numbers and principles of bikefit is vital information to understand anything about bikefit. Before that i just adjusted something and had no idea how it would affect everything else. If i was able to resolve some issue it was pure change.
What even most basic bikefit does is set bike into certain set-state and give you numbers on it. From there on you can do adjustments and have something to fall back into if things go bad.
No but I did a DIY bike fit and changed my cranks from 172.5 to 170. Suits me sir!
Si is a great presenter, kept asking good questions which made this video a lot better than other bike fit videos I have watched! Keep rocking the glasses!
Hope the video was useful!
He is a quality presenter…totally agree…
I also think Si genuinely was interested in knowing these things as well. Understanding why he was making these changes. All useful information to have as a cyclist.
Si is a great presenter!
I agree.
I am a seasoned cyclist, 68 y.o. although in denial ;-) and converted to 165mm cranks and couldn't be happier. We lose our hip flexion with age. I rode 175 cranks for decades...I am exactly the same size as Simon...same arm and leg length...same 186cm height aka 6'1"...I am American. This bike fitter is impressively smart. Crank length changes gearing and not speed. I in fact asked Sheldon Brown this question years ago and he said the same thing. In fact, most can turn a higher RPM on shorter cranks more comfortably which makes power generation at steady state faster because Power is proportional to RPM with same pedal force.
Simon is a great cyclist. Better than 99% who do it and yet, look how open minded he is to his saddle height and setback. Me too and I have been at it longer than Simon. Saddle height is extremely nuanced...how aggresive you ride and how closed your hip angle and how much you ankle...Simon ankles more than me even though I tend to toe point a bit like Simon.
I largely adjust saddle height based upon feel and eye toward knee angle at bottom of the pedal stroke. Don't fall in love with your saddle height. There maybe a better saddle height and setback for you.
All of this is just a science of belief. The same like while ago was believed that 25mm tires were the most optimal for Tour de France and today scientifically believed that 32mm are the most optimal. The same like it was scientifically believed that chicken eggs rises cholesterol, and today’s scientific belief states that chicken eggs actually reduce cholesterol.
@@tongotongo3143 Well said. As many things in life if waxing philosophic. Take saddle to bar drop. Greater bar drop closes the hip angle. Hip angle relates to crank length and saddle height including setback. A giant, insoluble puzzle subject to interpretation.
Consider a highly optimized TdF rider. Why doesn't every single TdF rider ride with 1 full inch more saddle to handlebar drop? Aerodynamics are king on a racing bike. Less rider frontal area typically translates into greater speed...until it doesn't. When are drops rendered unusable? Why did 7 TdF winner Lance Armstrong...they all doped...why did Lance ride with only 75mm of saddle to bar drop and rode one size up from his average height a 58cm? Because he was faster on that bike will open hip angle and more stretched out.
There is no ideal formula for bike fit or saddle height. The Lemond formula doesn't work for many including me.
It’s pleasure to meet a wise man these days. Yes, Le Mond formula isn’t the most optimal for me either. There are other better formulas, but all of them, and people who implement them, do not talk about the fact that when a real alive human body sits on a bicycle, the saddle collapses from 5mm up to 1cm, and the shoe sole also brings from 6mm up to 1cm variable! Those together can bring almost up to 2 cm difference, and this is a lot. My believe is, the best saddle height adjustment is to sit very straight on a saddle with your shoes on, and rise your saddle very precisely up until your shoes’ heels just barely touch the pedal when your leg is fully extended. Shoes on and leg fully extended are the key moments.
@@tongotongo3143 with all that said just get a bike fit to take out the guessing game. Plain and simple. Not many cyclists even the seasoned one have great body awareness.
It’s nothing to do with body awareness. I have developed my own saddle height formula based on human biomechanics and mathematics. But for ordinary people I just explain it more simple ways.
I would be interested to see a beginner / someone who isn’t an ex pro go through a bike fit. But an interesting video none the less!
As a 77 year old cyclist coming back after a heart attack to keep fit .I would be more than happy to put my hand up for the opportunity.
RIP
I’d volunteer but the cost to ship me and my bike to the uk. The us to the uk trip might be a bit pricey.
Jokes aside yea I agree. All my by 2 new bike in 20 years maybe to big I don’t have a saddle higher then my bars . But I’m comfortable for 30 to 40 miles. But I bet I’d benefit from a proper fit
I volunteer Harriet
@niallshakeshaft1524’s-comment/post “I would be interested to see a beginner / someone who isn’t an ex pro go through a bike fit. But an interesting video nonetheless the less!”:
A ex-pro = someone who has been-through professional-level bike-races.
That’s the-only-difference between Si and alot-of-us.
They’re (ie. Professional-cyclists and Semi-pros and Retired-pros) just People, just like us.
There was a wonderfully positive frustration sitting underneath this conversation. The tension of two completely valid and correct points of view interacting and layering on top of each other, laying foundations to explore new and improved territory.
A really good video and you know why? Because Si was actually going through that fit and asked all the questions he genuinely had, this is what makes it so interesting. Not a polished version of ‘what-can-learn-when-you-go-to-a-bike-fit’. I really, really enjoyed this video - thank you Si.
Great video! This inspired me to check on my position, carried out the Lemond method, raised saddle by almost 1cm, moved saddle forwards, went out for a 30 mile ride. The difference in comfort and power output was incredible, felt more "in charge of my bike", if that makes sense! It's a reminder that we always need to review our set up every now and again, and don't be afraid to experiment as long as you record the changes you make.
I have had the best luck using a variation of the Lemond method called the 109% method. The logic is that the 88% measurement to the bottom bracket in the Lemond does not take into account crank length. So multiply your inseam in cm by 1.09 and instead of measuring to the bottom bracket instead measure to the spindle of the pedal. This is very useful for me as I currently have different length cranks on one of my favorite bikes. I've been much happier since I started using this method.
just love this simon guy, not just polite, but so sympathic of a person
Best saddle height vidéo on UA-cam ever! Finally. Giving power to thé felling on thé saddle and adjust rather than trusting a stranger and a software.
I'm a fan of trying to get things in the ball park on a trainer, then going for a ride with a multi tool and making slight adjustments based on real world riding feel. That to me creates the "perfect" fit.
cool story bro
agreed!
I definitely appreciate Simon trying to extract as much info as he could from Phil. I'm not sure this video actually helps me any more than any of the other saddle height videos, though I was excited to watch 27 minutes on saddle height. I know I've fallen into the trap of paying attention to the numbers, like using formulas and thinking about where my saddle "should" be, even though the formulas usually put it higher for me than is comfortable. Kinetic cycle (youtube) recommends heel on pedal with NO SHOES then going down 3-5mm and starting there, AND basing it on the shortest (physically or functionally) of your legs as you sit comfortably on the saddle, without dropping hip to get heel to pedal. Based on where Simon's heel was when he started this video, that would leave a good 3cm gap between his foot and the pedal. Quite a huge difference, and again speaks to the idea that there is a range of saddle heights for any person. I believe tending towards the low end of the range is best for me anyway, but someone else could feel different. Saddle height is definitely a cycling rabbit hole that I think people shouldn't mess with unless they are having pain.
What a great video. The discussion at the end about "ideal" saddle height, fit windows, and adjusting fit within that window based on how the rider feels is invaluable. Fantastic to have more info out there about flexibility in fit.
Fascinating! What an insight. I have just acquired Bauke Mollema's Trek Madone from 2022, 58cm frame, (his 3rd Madone actually so almost never ridden). There is only 1 cm difference in our heights and I only dropped the saddle 2 mm, however his bars are 38cm -13% 110mm. Not only do I feel unsafe on the bike I can't ride more than a 45 minutes in (t)his position without feeling total corporal strain (I'm 64 and Bauke is 36). I am changing the handlebars to 40cm -7% 100mm to match my other Madone. This experience brought home the unbelievable difference between how pros ride and how amateurs ride (I typically ride, per year, 10k-12k kms and 10k-15k metres of climb), and how body position and bike fit are very personally related to your goals and objectives as a cyclist.
I begin to say sorry for my bad english 😊. Thanks for this episode. It made me raise my saddle 1cm. Have been riding with the new saddle height since this episode came out. What I have noticed is that I am less fatigued in my inner or lower quads. I was a bit afraid that I would get pain in my knees. I also noticed that I can push myself more. So thanks 😊
7:50 brilliant that finally someone actually explains why this “heel on pedal” reference doesn’t always work. Every time I question my fit and research if it is correct I come back to these basic guidelines and then question why they don’t work for me
same, i followed this, i felt like my seat was way too low, after i set it more high again, i realised how much extra watts i was missing out
Bear in mind that the "heel on pedal" is a starting point (as is the "knee over pedal spindle") not the end of the bike fit.
Very well done, ty. I'm 5'8" with 31" inseam, I have 3 racing bikes 50 cm , 51 cm, and 54cm. My reach is short. I put the seat forward as much as possible. My seat high very high. My leg is stretch all the way in the down, I want that power. If I come to a stop I have to get off seat. I don't mind because I like the power. I'm 57 years old, don't drive anymore, bike 20 minutes to work. And bike to do everything. I love it.
I got a Retül fit around 2010 when I was cycling daily. It’s the best thing I’ve ever bought for cycling. Made me faster and more comfortable. I know I should have had another one since, but the fit still works for me today over 12 years later.
I raised my saddle height after watching this and noticed a big difference in power! Thank you!!
Would be interesting to see the compete change over for Si with crank etc. and see ftp test against both. 👍
HOW did I miss this one?! SO informative - I'm currently in a slow, but progressive march towards a much more efficient and comfortable saddle position, and I believe that you've given me the insight I've been looking for to get to the next rung on that ladder. Thanks SO much for this!
I did a lot of road riding in the mid 80s to 90s, and about 7 years ago took up riding again. I had a basic fit done to get cleat positions worked out. At the end of 2019 I got a new carbon bike and a full Retul fit done. First time I rode the new bike on the road, it felt like I had been riding it for years. Everything was in the right place. Absolutely amazing what they can do these days vs. back in the 80s.
What an eloquent sensitive and realistic bike fitter. Gem.
what a fantastic "discussion" and demonstration of how 3D and computer bike fitting works and how it is only a guideline and not absolute truth on the topic.
Si’s ankles and the word beautiful in the same sentence…someone’s getting a Christmas card next year.
Si promises he didn't pay Phil to say that, but we're not so sure...! 😂
I know there are a few watts to be gained by raising my saddle, but I'm not a racer and I am in a comfortable window where I can ride long rides without any joint pain in my current position. I went down in frame size to a 56 when I bought my Bianchi, however, because I had to accept that with age I was losing the flexibility to ride a 130mm slammed stem in a stretched out position. The best bike is the one you can ride comfortably, at the end of the day.
Great just to hear ,and take in all the tangential considerations. Bike comfort and optimal crank arm length , and for me in the end you are fitting to a "window" because you need to be comfortable in the drops as well.
Excellent, simply excellent, loved Si's approach and analysis. Also good to hear the opinions of such an experienced bike fitter, no dogma but instead a flexible approach based on experience, perfect 👍
Also nice to hear the good old heel in pedal baseline didn't get kicked into the weeds, as I've heard from one or two other so called experts, after all we all need a starting point right 🤔
Great stuff, bring on the next one...
What else would you like to see Si take a deep dive into?
My golden principle is to know saddle height above pedal (on seat tube line). For me, that's 876mm (34½"), and this is the figure I use on every bike I own regardless of crank length. From what I heard in the video, maybe I'm fortunate to have enough hip flexibility (despite my age, not because of it) to accommodate cranks ranging from 165mm to 175mm.
The science is fascinating. Thank you. One more bit to consider. I have different saddle heights for MTB and CX. I move more on the MTB, so it feels better to have it a few mm lower. High power output CX is more frequently sitting, MTB standing. It works for me. Sorry, don't own a road bike anymore.
Very informational... will surely remember "not millimeter perfect" and within the "optimal window". Thank you!
Si, one thing you dropped from your summary was the consideration for physiological changes/compromises that some people (like me) have to deal with that changes the window. I personally have had 12 spinal surgeries (sports injuries) and lost me lower left leg (bad doctor). Obviously my back and neck don't flex normally and wearing a prosthetic leg have great impact. Fortunately for me, my bike shop worked hard to get me to where I could ride (shorter cranks, taller stem and stem angle) and I have made many adjustments over this past year as my comfort improved. I am using the Wahoo training programs and a Kickr for my indoor training and Garmin for outdoor. Tracking performance metrics as well as perceived comfort have helped me find the fit that works.
cool story bro
I really like how you started with two, DIY, methods to get you in the ballpark.
I'm curious as to why this wasn't tested at a threshold load. I find that saddle height affects my muscle recruitment a lot at higher loads; mainly not being able to use my glutes/hamstrings when the saddle height is wrong. It's hard to feel that when pedaling at a low effort.
Great video. The section at the end where Phil mentioned ageing and the need to reconsider your position was really pertinent to me. I got a new bike in my late 40s having ridden extensively (raced track, crits, TT and road, loads of very long-distance touring etc. so a LOT of miles) since childhood. When I was racing, I had quite an aggressive position - I'm very flexible, so a stretched out position used to be easy and comfortable. However, when I got the new bike, Paul Hewitt in Preston suggested a less aggressive position as befitted my advancing years. What a difference - more power without sacrificing any comfort, more than offset a slightly less aero position which, less face it, is not so important for 400km Audaxes when average speed is 20-25 kmph. So I looked at my position on my other bikes too as made changes all round.
Great video and goes to show the importance of a professional bike fit. I had one done for my main road bike and just something as simple as insoles in my cycling shoes changed my knee action and prevented injury.
The higher the better, like standing but without you holding up your weight. How much weight on your arms, problem most people have is the raise their Sadler’s without realising it’s probably moving their saddle back, then it changing which legs muscles you use and again changes weight on your arms. Also the length of your cranks and where you put your cleats all change everything. It also depends if you want power in the tops, hoods or drops. It could easily drive you crazy.
Sitting back let’s your hamstrings pull back more. I have done this as I was using my quads and nearly no hamstrings apart from in hills which moves your saddle back.🙈🙈🙈
Pros aren’t necessary in the perfect position but they have trained their body in that position so it feels right.
Longer crank lengths of give you more power out if the saddle.
Lower revs are better for stress on your body(longer cranks). I again can pull back more on longer cranks, it can go back to which position you are going to ride in
Great vid coach. At 62 I am having to rethink my whole approach to position on my new Domane bike. I have never really understood all the variables that influence knee pain and kinda just pedalled on. I’m going to leave this to a pro bike fitter this time!
I think I may be the first to view this video at 12 sec after publishing... Its an interesting feeling.
What's the feeling like? Does life feel different now vs before?
@@dylan-5287 life? Not at all. Just feels like I walked into an empty classroom.
@@c.d.j300 ah I gotcha. Always strange being the first into the classroom haha.
By chance I just did Retul about 2 weeks ago. Best money I’ve spent , far better than paying to shave grams off my ride. My saddle height went up considerably and my cleats adjusted to maximize my pedal stroke. I was also provided a printout of all my angles and measurements allowing me to transfer all my measurements to another bicycle if necessary. Highly recommended.
Yes, I have been fitted by a pro. But as I get older I can see the need for changes. For a long time I rode 175mm cranks (long legs and feet). Now I need to go shorter, and I can't bend over and reach as far on the bars. Part of this is age and part is riding less than I used to. This piece has encouraged me to re-examine my position and make some adjustments.
I've had 6 fits, BG, Retul, others etc... + several adjustments, all set my saddle too high, and did not correct my LLD because the numbers did not say anything was an issue. The BG fit said my sit bones were 114 mm instead of 124 mm which put me on a narrow saddle for years. All this this lead to fighting through extreme nerve pain, a disc bulge, asymmetric hip issues and SI joint pain. Then I started experimenting on my own and learn as much as I could about fitting, now I'm pain free after 10 years of issues, I am able to use a negative stem and had the best season ever. Lower saddle, wider saddle that is the right shape, arch support and some minor LLD correction.
I thought this would be silly. Half an hour later I forgot what happened, that was awesome!
For most casual riders just to get near the ideal position is enough. I usually do the "extended leg" type of adjustment for beginners
That method definitely helps get a good idea of the right height!
I have a touring bike for outside the city, and a 1966 foldable 24 inch steel bike with short crancks for the shorter trips in the city. On this city bike I get to most places I need to go throuhghout the week. I put the saddle on my city-bike about an inch down, to see what it does to my legs. So my shorter trips I ride with a lower saddle with two gears with bent knees. I have the impression that this way my quads are getting stronger because they are doing work in different positions. I have started doing this because I think this helps with Ice Skating. I allso feel stronger on my touring bike when riding uphill. More torque in motorists words.
Very good one. Hope to see more like this, just quality content 👌
What other deep dives with experts would you like to see us make?
Si’s ankles, yet again, are the star of the show 😊
Great video on fitting and I completely agree with "the window" of getting into the correct position. I would really like to see Simon go with a crank swap test to the 170 length for a few months to compare. Thanks for the content!!!
I’ve never had a bike fit in my 40 years of cycling. I’ve no problem with them and often wondered if I should have a pro fit. What Si said about the type of cycling being of greater importance really resonated. I started off as a mountain bike racer in the 1980s and have raced and ridden road, cross and gravel bikes. Interestingly, I think Zwifting has pushed me towards a fit more than any other discipline. Also, Phil’s “micro-adjuster” v “micro-absorber” theory, has me firmly in the latter camp.
Saddle height and bikefit in general is a compromise, so to consider it a window is right. I know that with my current frame geometry I sit deep aero and lean too much on the front, although I have a 60 mm short stem, and it comes with numb hands from time to time. But it feels good in terms of pedaling and putting out power. I never had any injuries.
I use the heel method. I ride three bikes between my road, gravel and fat bike and each bike has a different pedal and each different shoe I wear has a different stack height. By going with the heel method I think I have basically the same knee angle on all three. So I do believe there's a proper window to fall within.
Angles and numbers are great! But what about the things that power your bike, your muscles. Wouldn’t it be more interesting to find out in what position you are achieving what would be the best firing pattern for your muscles for cycling? And then dialling that down to where you get the best bang for your buck for each muscle group?
Best position to put out highest watts with lowest heart rate!
Phil Burt, the Best Known British Bicycle Physiology Engineer. Bike fitting is only one thing he does.
The Lemond method is a good starting point. Then 6 weeks at 250-300km and take multi tool for adjustments.
This was very refreshing to watch. I’ve been doing this quite a while, I’ll be seventy two in April and have been cycling on and off my entire life. At the moment I’m laid up after knee surgery, so have seen a lot of U-tube videos. The amount of total charlatans out there is astounding. People set themselves up as some sort of expert or cycling guru, and in reality know little to nothing. Phill clearly does not fall into that category, interesting to listen too, confident in his knowledge with nothing to prove. Excellent.
Omg this was so insightful and helpful, i honestly don’t believe there’s such a perfect or ultimate position, since every time you go out for a ride your riding condition changes even your attitude, one day you feel like a Tour de France rider and some days you’re not feeling it or you just can find the power no matter what you do, however I really think there’s a happy medium for everyone, you just gotta find it and like Phil said…Adapt…I believe I found my happy medium ones I finally made the decision to get a bike fit and do the best I can with the best that they could fit me with…I did find out I need performance shoe inserts
Thank you Si for an awesome video
Had a more involved(video with angles etc)bike fit a few months or more ago. Been riding road( came from MTB) since 2012.
My Initial bike fit was the usual plumb line from knee to pedal axle type. Had the norm big drop from seat to handlebar, as per pro riders. But of course, I'm not, and never will be a pro rider. But it looked the same as most of my riding mates adopted position. As a 72 year old, I was looking to limit any injuries etc. that I could be building up, as I advanced in age. And also to get rid of a few minor aches that I used to get on 100 mile sportives. My best average speed on a 100 miler was 18.4mph over 101 miles, in 2017, as a 68 year old. I was more than happy with that. During the bike fit, amongst a few other adjustments, the seat was lowered. 'this is too low' I thought. But after while, it felt more comfortable, saddle felt better, and those little aches and niggles dissapeared. Winner.
Who cares about looking 'more pro', to other cyclists. I loved riding my bike before, even with the aches & niggles, now I love it even more without the aches & niggles. Great video, by the way.
Crank length - ridden 175mm since year dot, well 1996, but based on this, will look at a shorter length for my next gravel bike build and marginal adjustments elsewhere. Mindbockling..
Saddle height should be measured from the center of the top of the pedal to the top of the saddle above the center of the rails (it's where your taint rests). Get that right then move your saddle all way forward and up to that measurement and go for a ride with your tools and move it slightly back and down incrementally until it feels perfect, while still retaining the original measurement from the pedal top to saddle top. 👌
I change my saddle position regularly depending on the footwear and even the biking shammy thickness.
I do hope that Dan is made fully aware about how amazing Si's ankles are 🙂
On a serious note, whilst this video was focusing on saddle position, a bike fit will also look at other aspects such as cleat position, stem height and reach. But I suspect these also fall into the same conclusion of 'be comfortable within a window of measurements because there isn't a 'holy grail' specific measurement'.
Everything is interlinked as Phil says - moving your saddle is part of finding the optimal riding position, but cranks and stem changes go hand-in-hand with it 👍
Very insightful. Thanks GCN!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
Get a dropper! They're really handy for getting on and traffic lights + you can adjust to the "optimum" height on the fly!
.883 x inseam length. Center of bottom bracket to the top of the saddle. Done. No bike-fit mambo-jumbo needed.
I'm pretty convinced that there's no perfect saddle height. I had a bike fit when I was cycling more/less 4-6 times a week, fit was perfect comfy and aero, but as soon as I got off the bike for 2 or more weeks due to life getting in the way, the perfect position became unsustainable for long periods on the bike.
Have you ever tried a bike fit before?
@@gcn Yes, I got that position through a bike fit. Became unsustainable when I became unfit though:(
@@TheAnimejosh That makes complete sense.
Yes, how often do we have a bike fit?
@@TheAnimejosh as someone who has stopped riding for both long and short periods. This happens to me as well. I will often feel like I'm reaching to the pedals and feel uncomfortable. I'll drop the saddle and over time it starts to feel too low and I'll end up raising it again.
I think it is easier to sense when your saddle is getting too high rather than a bit too low. I’ve always used the heel on pedal method to get close then gradually raise it till it starts feeling too high. Then lower it till it no longer feels too high. If you can’t drop your ankles a little while pedaling it’s probably too high.
100%, i'd made my first Retul bf in 2013-2014 in Italy with some enthusiastic guys who hade been making it for themselves and pros and juniors - it was also amazing when we moved saddle forward and up. Especially it made my climbing so smooth like stepping on the stairs. Yes the opposite to quads muscles need to be trained more but the position and force distribution is great. Now I'm trying to replicate my bf on every bike (MTB, gravel and new road ones) and it works great. I tried to redo BF with different master and we've got a different part of the window (far backward and lower) and I don't liked it and returned to previous one...
Also using powermeter to compare your output power against exact HR (or the opposite - equal power and diff. HR) to check the effectiveness)
Moving cleats, dropped heel or angled heel as well as Q factor will also interact with saddle height (and fore after position of saddle). Leg discrepancy aswell (shims needed). All major factors of pain.
Fascinating. Thank you, Simon, for this informative video. The questions you asked were exactly the ones I was thinking about. You both summed up this topic well, and as clear as can be. Once again, great job.
It’s been said by many others, but here is another comment asking for a new cyclist(not an ex-pro or a 5w/kg Ollie) going through this. It would be interesting to see how their body changes, or doesn’t, as you get their fit correct.
I've been riding for 30 years and only had a bike fit recently as I was comfortable in my setup which I have used for the last 25 years. However it was a bit of an eureka moment, in that although the changes needed to my setup were only minor, it instantly resulted in more comfort, easier and smoother pedalling action which translated into less stress on my muscles. Agree it's not for everyone though so I wouldn't say it's a must, and I also can't say with hindsight whether my original setup was actually fine, but as I got older it needed some tweaking, but I persevered with my original setup.
I think probably, as Si said, the "perfect" position varies with the type of riding, but even more so just the effort of riding that you're doing, and you want to put things where you're comfortable at the effort you'll be riding most of the time, while still not being too far off when you're at the extremes. If you set your saddle up to feel perfect when you're doing match sprints, it will probably feel a bit wrong when you go for a long ride at a lower effort, and vice versa. If you can set things up to feel good riding the way you ride normally, and still have room to adapt to riding the exceptional cases by shifting your position on the saddle, or using your ankles, etc, without getting too far out of form, then you're probably in a good spot.
I also think that there's a lot more to be said for weight/force distribution than many bike fitters really account for, and how much a specific person can accommodate one limitation vs another. I know I find myself fighting that a lot, as a tall rider with very long legs for my height who also pedals fairly toe-down.
A couple times I've gotten a fit from a bike shop when buying a bike, and it's always ends up where I feel like I'm falling off the front of the bike because they're trying to put me in a semi-aero position (which is fine), but focusing way too much on keeping an open hip angle, which puts too much weight on my hands.
I've got tons of flexibility in my hips and lower back, so IMO, there's no real need to aim for such an open hip angle, at the expense of weight balance issues (which do bother me)
I've discovered over time that I'm much more comfortable with a bit more setback, and a short and high front end, and longer cranks, which all shift my weight balance backward under normal pedaling loads, taking the weight off my hands/wrists, with the only "down side" being a closed hip angle which I'm totally fine with. It looks wrong to a lot of people, because they see the 100mm of spacers, and 60mm 30degree stem pointing up, and think that it's "not aero", but rarely do they notice that even with all that stack I've still got a ton of saddle to bar drop.
Great video. Where I think bike fit can be really useful for us mere mortals, is in defining the difference between ‘height’ of a person and ‘height of the upper body’ + ‘leg length’ of that same person, the two definitely not being the same. I’m 5’8” and if we left it at that, people would assume I should be riding a frame height of x, (which will then usually come with a standard top tube length), and using a saddle height of y.
However, (and I didn’t know this until I joined the army and had to have certain uniforms tailored for me), I’ve got an upper body equivalent to someone who’s between 5’10” and 6’, so ergo my leg length equates to someone who is 5’6” or even 5’4”. This would massively change the in-shop ‘guesstimated’ choice of frame size, of saddle height and of saddle fore/aft position.
I’ve adjusted everything as best I can DIY. I’m comfortable (which at 50, and living in the Alps with lots of long long climbs) is more important to me than aero, or speed etc. But as body parts lose flexibility and after a foot op, I think I’m going to invest in a bikefit, or be absolutely sure of where I should be positioned on my bike. I just hope the advice isn’t to buy a new frame because I absolutely love my bike 😂
I would VERY MUCH be interested to see you change your crank length shorter to see how it changes things for you!
Just when I thought my saddle height was perfect, this video came by. Well, time to fiddle with my saddle height again.
We hope this helps! Don't forget, going in person to a bike fitter is always a good choice if you're struggling to get the right setup.
I am 196cm tall with 94cm inseam. I used 175 cranks for along time. I made bikefit with my 175 cranks, but I was recommended to ride 180 cranks. I tried 180 and it became much better than 175. The ride became more powerful and more comfy. The only moment was that my knees were bending a lot at 12 hours pedal position. Then I tried 175 cranks once more, I did not like them at all. Now I am going to try 177,5 cranks. And I am sure I will not ride short cranks any more. It is need to understand, that crankы length depends on length ratio of inseam and hip length to accomodate the best bending angles in hip and ankle.
I've always found Si' ankle work beautiful, glad to see scientific proof!
If you've been riding for a long time at the same saddle height/position with no issues, it's probably a very good idea to just leave things where they are. That said, if you absolutely have to make a mistake with setting the saddle height, set it too low rather than too high. If you set it too low, your performance will suffer, and you will tire more easily. If your saddle height is too high, you may suffer serious injuries from which it will take months or years to recover.
I got a Retul fit last year. New bike and I felt all kinds of cramped. It has dome wonders for my position on the bike.
As to a perfect fit, I am not sure there is one. There might be one, but flats vs climbing vs downhill often have you in a different position. When I got my fit done we talked about the window idea, and he put me at the extreme end of it and we adjusted until I felt comfortable within it.
I had a bike fit and the fitter measured that I had very tight hamstrings. Much less than the 75 degrees that Si has. My saddle height had originally been set based on a cyclist with normal hamstring flexibility. The bike fitter lowered my saddle height and that has resulted in less discomfort.
My saddle is so high that I have less than an inch of post in my frame, a frame btw my fitter said was too big for me by .5 cm. Fitters are crazy. My seat is back a little, with a slight downslope. This is perfect for me for long rides with variable wind directions. I drop the saddle on certain rides that demand more clearance for my bum when out of the saddle (twisty, technical routes for example.) But for long slogs that include cross and headwinds, I sit high so when I'm in the drops, I'm aero. The ride matters. There is no perfect saddle height, only one that feels good, and that feel good feeling varies by route.
Great video-learned a lot today! Thank you
I think there probably is a 'perfect' fit for a person at a particular time, but it depends on a whole lot of variables including their fitness, flexibility, how and what they ride, etc.
Your fit, therefore, would be different for a pro vs an amateur, and for road vs mountain vs time trial or track. And it would change over time as your fitness and flexibility change.
So the window makes sense. Perhaps the real answer is that you need to play with your setup from time to time making small adjustments to improve a relevant aspect (power vs comfort, for example) and ride it for a week or two to see if it has the desired effect. Up and forward if you want to be more Aero, try a shorter crank if you can, etc.
I think actually I might try that last one as I'm a tall rider (almost as tall as Connor) who's used 175mm cranks my whole cycling life and what Phil said there at the end was intriguing.
I think the wrong question is being asked here rather than starting with saddle height and the fore and aft I think you should take a look at the cleats and see how those are set up that's gonna have a huge impact on how you ankle and how you interact with the saddle how it feels and the overall saddle height as well as how the bars sit in relative space to the bike. This video was super awesome and especially as a fit nerd some good info put only a small part off the puzzle. What if you put a longer stem the the rider is pulled forward if they are not flexible etc. It's like pulling kn a spiderweb. Great video tho. Love it. More fit video GCN plz!!!
Good point. Another interesting video would be trying a mid-foot cleat position. Some people promote that, but it would seem to really complicate the rest of the fit because you would essentially move everything forward.
Great video. Maybe a nice follow up would be a video for people practicing various disciplines, like road and mtb, gravel, to go through the adaptations to consider, like frame measures and geometry, and crank length for instance. I am sure you guys have enough experience with that.
This would be interesting to be 'fit' for a road bike, then what would need to be done to a normal cyclist (normal proportions) for a gravel bike, mountain bike, etc.
Having worked in the trade for nigh on 20 years - I can attest to differences due to the tools used, and to philosophies of different fitters.
I’m sure there has been evolution in those philosophies - but that will be dictated by the fitter and how “up to speed” or set in their ways they are. ;)
My own personal fit has changed significantly over the 20 years (I’m now 44) due to changes in physiology and riding style/frequency.
I got a bike fit when I bought my first road bike a couple of years ago. About 18 months later, I went for another bike fit on the same bike - the result was my seat post was raised 35mm and my saddle moved back about 20mm. Bike fits aren't always perfect and bike fitters are all different. It's important to try and get a good one though. Try and do some research into the fitter and look at their testimonials. I would also recommend speaking to your local bike store to see if they have any recommendations or fellow cyclists. Unfortunately Phil Burt isn't available to those of us outside the UK.😂
I end up resetting my seats often .
It does make a big difference.
You also have to take into consideration our bodies change ie flexibility muscle mass
I definitely have a different seating position now in my 60 years than I did in my 20 ( time haha) and I.used the lemond position and then what feels comfortable
Very insightful,I've seen Phil on Katie Kookaburra'a channel,always on point,... would be interesting to see a performance difference before and after a fit,with maybe the lady who rode a super bike for the first time with Manon last year,she was great ,thanks for all you do!
Getting a Mountain Bike was revelatory. With the drop post. Now I adjust my height according to my needs. I now realize I don’t have one optimal height, I have several according to conditions. I have a slightly short left leg, and so I can optimize for all needs. Also, since it is an eMTB, I can crank assist in low rpm settings taking a long of stress off the knees. I wish all bikes had drop seats.
First thing to assess is the first contact point, cleats, then saddle height and fore/aft balance
I seek the maximum power producing position where I find myself enough forward of the crank that I can get in front of the crank and push ever so slightly back. My reach can’t be too far forward but instead balanced for comfort with speed.
This is a great video!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
i have my bike fit last year using Idmatch bikelab.. according to the assessment of the bike fitter my saddle height should be around 67,8cm.. i tried riding with it but i never get used to it coz it felt very high.. dropped it by 1 cm and it became very comfortable :)..
This would be a very educational and useful video....IF we all had super absorbent mega-ankles like Si...
😂
If only Dan‘s ankles could absorb that much.
Had a “professional fit”. I had been riding for years, >100,000 miles. Got a new bike after several years of not riding. Set up the position by feel. The “professional fitter” did not change any of my setup by more than 10 mm. Seemed not very significant.
Great vid si. My ethos has always been trial and error. Also at different times and different scenarios we might want to adjust within our window to optimise... I for one am going to try an incremental raise tonight on the trainer to see how it feels by 5mm... And go from there.
Great video👍 If you move your cleats further back it could allow you to raise your saddle a little up and open your hip up. Just a thoght😊
Cool 👍 I learnt a new word too "anklling", brilliant.