Everything you said was spot on. Took delivery last week. Acceleration is slow top speed 73mph, range about 40 miles (150lb rider). Battery is not removable the way it was shown to be. I have had a few mechanical quality issues. One of the foot pegs exploded and shot off the end cap and spring across my garage, the display screen stopped working during my first ride, and the cell phone charging compartment is really cheap doors rubs, squeaks and is sticky and has an uneven floor with no nonslip padding for the phone. Phone just flops around hitting the inside as you move the bike around. Also seems to be no regen braking that it should have to safely slow and stop the bike not to mention increase range closer to what was promised.
Great video and thanks for your research and number crunching. You have reminded everyone why pre-ordering ANYTHING is always pretty risky. Ima go smash that like button now.
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, pre-ordering can either end up giving you something great, or maybe ending up in a product limbo for years before delivery. Or maybe you never get it at all and they run away with your money. Anywho, I hope it's the former with this one.
I preordered and paid in full to save an extra $750 to reserve and pay over time. Now they upped the pre order price to $6000 so I guess I saved a thou there. But I was expecting this by now and I still don’t know what the shipping cost is. I also was not fond of the DOT regulation modification adjustments that warped the ascetic. By the time this comes it’s going to look like master shake after plastic surgery.
Wanted this bike. But I'm not waiting 5 years yo get one. I've moved on. And no zero for me, selling all the upgrades like a tesla. Just put shit on bike and sell it for the price. Gonna buy a sur-ron. Just to have fun
I'm not someone who pre-orders as a rule, but the promotionals on the Metacycle promised some very good qualities. I talked with them and was just on the edge of committing to buying from the second run of production in early July. All the previous delays seemed justifiably linked to supply chain issues during Covid and were in the past. Then the delivery of the first line was delayed *again*. Again, there were solid walls of confidence from Sondors up to and even a few days after the delay in delivery. They were still relying on old production images, and then a live demo where three bikes were out but nobody but Sondors is shown riding one or talking about them. This company has a cancerous issue in communicating with customers, and making promises that fail to materialize. I need to see them out, in the hands of the public, before I would ever look at buying. Even then, it says a sad thing about this company that I will trust a random UA-camr's unboxing video over anything they have said over the last two years. If I am convinced to buy, these would be the same people I would rely on for any warranty issues, recalls, or parts down the road...Can somebody else pick up the mantle of reliable electric for commuting at up to 50mph? Someone not in China? Someone not asking five figures?
I was debating ordering the metacycle vs the black tea bonfire X. The specs def seemed too good to be true, but also the styling killed it for me. The 'removable' battery looks like it's going to be stupid heavy. Then seeing all the changes to meet DOT requirements showed that they weren't really paying attention. The Black Tea has lower specs, but it looks more realistic, and they aren't trying to make any technological breakthroughs. Just using what works to make a fun bike. I'm placing an order for the Bonfire X(5 month wait so it might still show up before the metacycle). I like something that I can customize instead of vaporware.
I'm right on the verge of asking for a refund at this point. You're right something definitely stinks here big time. Even underperforming it will still work for my use case, but I just don't know if I can trust the company at all anymore. Would you get on a motorcycle engineered by a company that left its specs 33+% pounds underweight for what over a year now? That's not a small error. It's a lie, a lie that they used to sell what was already fuzzy math as something plausible. Sondors needs to respond and do so quickly or I'm out.
You also have to consider that this is not the first time it has happened. The Madmods ebike also came in grossly overweight (almost double) and under performance. So they knew they needed to be careful with calculating this. The only way this could happen would be outright deliberate misinformation OR gross incompetence. Then again they also forgot about DOT regulations and had to slap on additional lights and reflectors . . .
@@trowantechworks Going from 200lbs to 300lbs means that the weight of the frame AT LEAST doubled (assuming a generous 100lbs for battery, motor and wheels). More likely more than double as the battery alone should be well over 50lbs. Combined with the Madmods fiasco I cannot see any way it was not deliberate misinformation.
Most of the claims out there suck when it comes to real world range. There are however ever more new projects who claim rediculous stuff. 100 Mph, 200 pounds curb weight, 150 mile average range and still a 4 Kw battery on board? In real life you get nothing for free. People should first focus on getting a feeling on what can real. So more video's like these please. I for one would be very interested to receive your calculations. My present rule of thumbs are are comparable to yours: For real life use an average of 1,1 KW battery capacity per 10 km (approx. 6 mile) range. So f you want to travel 150 km (approx. 100 miles) you need at least a 15KW battery and if you want to go 200 km you need a t least a 20 Kw battery (see, meters / km are much easier to calculate with!). Although the volumetric problem for bikes has been solved in the last few years one would still be hard pressed to such capacities in a 250 kg (= approx. 500 pounds) motorcycle. As far as power is concerned I think that 30 to 40 KW continuous via a good old fashioned gear box is more then enough. Motorcycle riding is after all about more then just twisting the grip at the traffic lights. I am trying to develop such a bike myself and have the rolling chassis finished for about 90 %. The costs for the electronics an batteries alone are however still about $ 5000 to $ 6.000. So can these hype bikes exist at all? Only if you do not plan to ride further then the next street corner!
Howdy, I have a vision of a likely future for metacycle customers. Why? Because I'm a Sondors MadMods customer and I've already experienced what Metacycle customers have started going through. So, Sondors MadMods... It is an emoped style ebike originally sold for $1,500 advertising a weight of 65lbs, top speed of 28+mph, and a variety of swappable parts. It didn't take long for all of that go change. Now it is $3,500 (lol), weighs 116lbs, software limited to 25mph on the display, and certain parts (seat on the scrambler, tire on retro, and fender on cafe) either don't exist or arent as advertised. How did customers find out? Sondors just quietly updated their website as they began actually shipping bikes. In addition many bikes were delivered damaged because they shipped 120lbs of bike as if it was a 65lb bike. No apologies, no official statements, just the expectation for the customer to deal with it. I called it on reddit that the weight was BS months ago. Now I suspect you'll see some specs quietly change, but only when the bikes are close to shipping. They want the false specs up so they can sell more bikes. I will bet the top speed decrease and 0-60 time decrease happens after price increases. Obviously I'm bitter about the way Sondors treated me as a customer. But to close out on a positive note, so far my experience with Xion has been the polar opposite. Sondors ought to look at what Xion did for the CyberX and use that as an example of how to treat customers and how to develop a bike and change specs. CyberX is significantly different than the bike on their campaign video and the team kept people updated through the process. Hell, I think the CyberX might end up potentially having better performance than Metacycle.
Sorry to hear that you dealt with that already with the MadMods bike. I've heard the same thing from others. I'm betting you're right, and that they will de-rate the performance of the bike. I've been watching Xion closely and everything you said is spot on. They have handled their customer base well.
There could be refunds in the thousands, but the order numbers and some dialog between customers and company suggest they have pre-sold tens of thousands of these things, so they're not breaking a sweat. We have given them interest-free loans, over a year now for me.
And I theorize the weight increase is because they assumed they could get the frame cut from billet aluminum which is much stronger, therefore less material making it much lighter. Going to a cast frame is soft, weak metal, so it takes way more material.
When they start coming over here, it doesn't matter what the weight or acceleration will be. If it's $5000 or $6000 and can go over 65, it will sell like crazy.
Yeah I don't think the acceleration is a deal breaker. It's more how the company saying one thing but the specs don't back that up. It's sketchy for a manufacturer to have conflicting information.
I agree, all these other companies are like "yeah, everyone can still afford a $40,000 bike, right?". We're not looking for flashy Harley's or Honda's here. Same with electric cars.
Nice timing on this video and I think it ties in nicely with the recent MBVHD [should be MKBHD - Marques Brownlee] video about pre-ordering EV cars. From the beginning I've been skeptical the Metacycle could match the hype and am glad I didn't order one before independent reviews are out. The Super 73 announcement is already in the same pattern with a few performance targets listed to generate interest but little else. Like you, I want to see vehicles like these succeed. It's a tricky market between the electric mopeds and full-size electric motorcycles to maneuver in and I think we'll see a few failures before a company figures out the formula.
I'm not familiar with MBVHD, do you have a link to it? Yeah I agree, I'm always a skeptic but am also rooting for these companies because we need more bikes like these on the market. Its better for the consumer. Time will tell, but I think they'll figure it out. Or China will get smart and sell their own bikes in the U.S. and beat the U.S. manufacturers.
@@trowantechworks they meant MKBHD. Marques Brownlee. His newest video encapsulates this Sondors situation without directly mentioning it. He’s got like 15 million subs. He also made it to Forbes’ 30 under 30
That's was a great recommendation, thanks. Alternatively, you could look at his video as a "how to start en ev company and raise money and hype" tutorial. I want a 5 million dollar interest free loan too. 🤔
Here's a fun point you missed, taxes and shipping aren't calculated until the ship date and we all know how much the cost of those overseas shipping containers has gone up lol. That was the final breaking point for me before getting a refund.
@@trowantechworks 'l've been hammering this point with Sonders as much as I can...I got out of them that they deal with third party shipper, final assembly is stateside,.I live within driving distance to 5 deep water ports East coast/gulf regions, which definitely would reduce cost of CA delays and then shipping to GA, but they then disclose the final assembly stuff, they may literally have some trucker don white gloves and ride to my driveway, that would be so special, ha ha
Thanks for the research on this bike. I am one of the first 2000, so I get a special signature series. Whoopity doo!! I've been waiting well over a year now. Just paid shipping charges (700$) so I should be disappointed here soon. I'll probably post it for sale as soon as I get it.
I'm still awaiting for my White Metacycle to eventually arrive. I completely agree with you that their specs are highly optimistic. Still I plan on using it to ride around town locally. I'll use my ICE Motorcycle for the long trips. I wanted a simple electric motorcycle as a backup to my gas motorcycle. I also have a Red Rover Fat Tire Mountain Bike, which is fun to ride around town. It also helps me get some exercise in while helping me climb large hills. Once I get my Metacycle, I'll put it through its paces and see how it works. If I can manage the time (CDL Truck Driver here). I plan on making some UA-cam videos on the bike when I get it. I'll just record a bunch of footage on my Drift camera and edit it while I'm out on the road. Haven't posted any videos in a long time but I'll try to pass along any useful information that I find out. I still have my 2007 YZF600R Super Sport Motorcycle. So if the Metacycle's performance sucks, I have a backup! LOL
good to see you back on the case. got my refund back in December and thought I'd put it into a Xion Cyber X but... videos finally coming out from the very first indiegogo backers and... it's... um.... so now I'm back to square one and probably just going to get en Onyx RCR like I originally planned
After the last Video and this Your my New numbers man Dude!! Thank You for all you do! I'm so glad I subscribed to you because you use science to equate logic and the obvious plan for these Company's is to go away and come back with the finished product instead they announce a bike before they've finished it! I know someone who has one on order and I know he will regret his actions soon!! It's such a shame!!! Cheers Trowan Techworks
I got a refund and bought a 2022 Zero FX. There is no way the Metacycle specs are correct. My FX has almost twice the battery and 3x the motor power and weights 289 lbs...and it's top speed is 85 and max range (city) is 91 miles....but freeway speeds. I'm getting 40ish. So, I 100% agree with you assessment.
Here we are in mid-July and the first batch are in transit to the US for final assembly. Look at you with your sagely predictions. I'm curious what your numbers look like with a rider >200 pounds. I know the average American man is about 200 pounds but there's a hell of a range there. I'm 6'2" 250 and I feel as if the Metacycle might fail to meet even modest range requirements and might be unfit for 70mph highways for people such as me. They say their maximum weight limit is 400 pounds but that seems...ambitious. It's an electric scooter with a cool motorcycle frame.
I sincerely appreciate all the information and analysis you have provided on this bike. I am a newbie...novice...ignorant first timer if you like in the ebike space. I am told because of the early timing of my order I have "Elite Status." I know I know...everyone is told this and I should take the fish hook out of my mouth. However my question has to do with your discussions of "unlocking" the bike or hacking and modifying the bike's software to increase performance. Supposedly my bike will have, "Two Unique Power Modes. Eco Mode with limits to 100kph/62mph and Sport Mode allowing full speed + power." Assuming this is a real feature...what are your thoughts? Would either of these modes impact your calculations? Could "Sport Mode" be referring to an "unlocked" or intentionally "hacked" version of the bike? I really look forward to your reply and value your expertise. Kind regards.
Thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated! And unless sport mode produces more power or torque than what is listed on their official website, no. I am simply using the specs that they provided. Now could the information on the website be wrong? Sure. Maybe the Metacycle can put out more than 14.5kW in Sport mode. But Sondors has not published this information.
They were having the same specs issue when they came out with their fat tire e-bike. Calculations figured less range than the posted range on the website. The bike did come out late, but overall most people were happy with it. It sold for $499. Let's hope the Metacycle is not too far off their specs. Maybe I could get down to 99 pounds, but I wouldn't want bullies kicking sand on me.
I wonder why they kept the hole in the frame as compared to integrating a luggage compartment. Sure, it makes the bike look unique, but also makes it less practical. Maybe even increasing drag.
Ali had told me that he wanted me to review one. So I am hoping to get to do so. I didn't order one, as the bike isn't really my style. I'm more of a DIY guy. But I'd love to be able to test a CyberX and actually record/publish data from it.
Thank you for the great video! I contacted them and this was their response. I am curious what your thoughts are. I have been contemplating canceling but your video convinced me that is not likely to be the bike advertised. Apr 3, 2022, 12:26 PM PDT Hello, Thank you for contacting us. I hope you're having a great Sunday! Allow me to add our list of specs for the Metacycle. Motor PMAC hub motor 8kW (11hp) nominal 14.5kW (20hp) Peak Torque 80 ft-lbs. nominal, 130 ft-lbs. peak Front Suspension USD forks compression & rebound adjustable Rear Suspension Direct (no linkage) compression & rebound adjustable Brakes Single disc, hand actuated Speed Up to 80 mph, 0-60 approx. 6 seconds Range Up to 80 miles Battery 4kW hours Lithium-ion battery (Weight 54 Lbs) Frame Custom forged, weld-free, single piece exclusive cast aluminum Charging Compact at 8” x 4” x 3” and approx. 7 lbs., Up to 15A/1.2 kW, Charge time is about 3 hours and 45 min. on either a 110v or 240v outlet Wireless Phone Charger Clear cover phone port for easy viewing + navigation, 6.7"L x 3.6"W x 1.25"H Total Weight 300 lbs. Dimensions 76" long, 44" tall, 32" wide at handlebars Seat Height 31.5" Load Capacity 400 lbs
Thank you for your quick response. The Metacycle has gained another 100 pounds, but it will not impact its performance. You can stay calm as nothing has changed but the weight. Regarding your request, before I proceed, I wanted to make sure that you're up to date on the latest manufacturing, shipping, and live event updates we have planned. In addition, I see you are locked in at a $5,000 price, this is the lowest price Metacycles will ever be! I wanted to let you know that SONDORS Metacycle price was at $5,000 and this introductory pricing has ended. Our new orders are available for Q4 2022 at the $6,000(or potentially higher) price point as you've noticed on our SONDORSX page. I wanted to let you know that SONDORS Metacycle is anticipated to ship early round 1 orders this upcoming June and you are locked in at the limited time offer of our $5,000 price point. Besides this, allow me to explain the benefits since you are indeed part of our limited edition first production round of Metacycles. - They have confirmed production and shipping estimated dates. April for final production and June 2022 for shipping of 1st round. - The SondorsX page states in specs that Metacycles will be fitted with Kenda tires. While Kenda is great tires; we're giving 1st rounders exclusive Michelin tires as was promised by Storm back during the introduction. - All 1st round production orders will be personally signed by our Founder/CEO Storm Sondors Our live test ride event is coming very soon. We are scouting locations right now. We'll have tons of new content including production photos and test rides. And just for a sneak peek we even have a special Jay Leno project in the near future. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact us again. All the best
Well I bought and paid for two of them. My need is different and I like the futuristic styling. Hope it works out. Can't really beat the price. Hope it's all for real.
I bought a Zero SRS in 2020, and a coworker of mine drives a Model S. So we wound up chatting at the charging stations.... turns out he wanted a motorcycle too and was excitedly waiting for a Sondor motorcycle. The last time I talked to him about it he was still waiting. IDK if he asked for his money back yet or not. I've ridden 22k miles in that time, while all he has is an order for a bike.
Thanks for this video. I’m still holding out. Even tho these guys suck and they’re messing up the bike at every change. For my intended purposes I think it’s still gonna be ok. I ride my little Onyx RCR all over my town and love it. I’ve been on the edge of cancellation for a year just because of the awful communication.
I was looking at the onyx but missed the preorder. After they jacked up the price this looked like much more bang for the buck. I don’t mind as much that it could accelerate more slowly but I do want that 80mph for a sustained period of time. Cruising on the highway and able to pass grandmas.
I wanted Metacycle for commuting so when they moved the ship date from Q4 to Q3 I paid the $5k and then when Q4 hit and there was no sign of production or even that design was locked, I got a refund. Now it's the end of May and I am checking back to see how the bikes are doing in peoples hands, and I see they haven't made it out of China yet. I never cared about top speed or acceleration with this bike. I just wanted it to get to 60mph so I can drive the 23 miles to work and 23 miles back on mostly rural highways with a short freeway run. But I was worried it wouldn't make it both ways without charging since I am heavier than 200 and it is about 8 minutes of walking to carry that heavy battery from the parking lot to my work shop and I didn't see any wheels on that battery.
I wonder if its a custom ESC or if its some hacked version that's already out there. I'm waiting for the KO Motor for my Surron thing should fly after that.
I think the hub drive may prove to be a mistake, they have less torque and a lot of unsprung weight so pot holes etc could damage the motor and wheel. I have ebikes with mid and done with hub and mid is better for off road but having said that the hub drives are doing ok.
Yeah a weight increase is not necessarily a bad thing. For security purposes too. But not increasing the power/torque to account for this is just...bad
@@mannyechaluce3814 I'll disagree, people are out there doing it. If you're crashing simply because you are going fast, then In my opinion that's more of a skill gap on the rider. But the scary thing is, anyone (including someone who has never rode a motorcycle before) can just buy Sur Ron X and modify it to go 90 MPH. So if that's the scenario that you're talking about, then yes, they'll more then likely crash. Riding requires skill which is not something you can simply buy.
Its funny..I made a decent electric motorcycle from a Emmo Zone ebike, using a 6000 watt hub motor, Kelly Controller and big 4000 WH battery and pulling about 23000 watts, the bike would do a top speed of 130 KPH (In fav conditions), get to 100 KPH in about 8.5 seconds and get about 40-50 km range in the city, so this is no surprise ..it does however make me irritated when ALL electric companies exaggerate the range and performance of their products. So in a comparison this Sondors bike is slower than my Smart Car EQ from -60. Wow..
This entire bike is the Fyre Festival with 2 wheels version 👌. DONT BELIEVE THERE HYPE...also plenty of people told others about there previous products getting delivered late or not at all.
After again a delay in shipping.... I cancelled my order last December and asked for a refund. We are now several months further and I am still waiting for my refund!! I really do not understand how they can operate like this. No respond on mails....am I the only one with this experience?
Bottom line, if it’s less than 72v it’ll be lacking on thrill and smiles-per-mile. But this ebike is properly equipped, eg: brakes under both hands, parking brake, and reverse … all of which are absent on Harley’s Livewire and Zeros.
They were things I liked also, I had a Fatboy, so that reverse as I get older is a big positive. I wish security was better, ie with an app...I mean that damn alarm could ring till the battery dies if your not close. I also don't see a mechanism for locking the forks... I'm still hanging on but they're not making it easy..
So it's a cool looking motorcycle that's going to perform more like an electric scooter. The price point makes sense if that's the true performance target all along and I imagine it'll still fill a lot of people's needs for city and short distance commuting. I just wonder if Sondors is doing more harm than good by letting marketing run this much of the show when engineering's numbers might have been more clear all along.
I'm in the 2nd wafer of production have had my metacycle completely paid off since like Janualry. 0-60 is not that important, range is more important to me. My work is 15 miles out, so I need at least 30 mile range for the commute (most is highway). Hopefully that would be enough. Hopefully i'll get it this year.
Well, I can’t say I enjoyed the video. (I did hit like. I mean you put a lot into making the video.) I am a paid up Metacycle “owner”? I got an email telling me I’m in the first batch, signed and shod in Michelin tires. To be delivered in June. I live where it snows so I would like it in time to ride it. Thanks for bumming me out first thing in the morning. Oh well, maybe it’ll be a step up from my SurRon. Although, @ 300# I’m not so sure. I do like the low weight of the SurRon. I’d just like a freeway legal top speed. Anyway I can probably get my money back if I don’t like it, I imagine the price will go up. Thanks for the info.
I've done similar range calculations, with enough accuracy for, let's just say, pioneer EV vehicles, and it all didn't add up, to the point where I was willing to head to Irvine CA to check it out myself, nothing but crickets about questions and calculations, everything they say, doesn't materialize or add up, so I yanked my money back, from a EV manufacturing stand point, ya have to wonder, they're selling motorcycles to already motorcycle owners likely (me), they're also selling an EV, my specialty, overall, the whole thing is disappointing
I disagree they have responded to every email i have sent them. I am still excited first production run are completed from comments on reddit. on time with what they told me a few months ago. we will see what they come out with
IF I can be honest I am also planing to go for the Sondors metacycle but then I have seen the sunra miku super which is also seemingly wowi good and in a great price range as well with even fingerprint, app control, alarm and everything for about 3500 they say but it does "just" 70 ,...
I think the first delivery in Europe will be 2025!! Everytime when I ask for more information, it cost me several mails to get an answer. Very frustrating. And perhaps an idea to move to the new Super73-C1X, and cancel my Sondors order.
They're a small company, they can't be doing once a month live feeds and better PR at this point. That's going to unnecessarily drive the cost up specially if it's a new product. The PR would be best spent once they have the product shipped. Their specs already aren't lining up so they need to spend that on R&D and quality control. haha Though they could be more transparent by doing monthly written updates and maybe a quarterly video update from the CEO since the customers are it's shareholders at this point since they're all pre-orders. My bet is the first orders wont be delivered until 4th quarter. I hope I'm wrong though haha. If this fails, someone should take that chassis and further this project. I don't even care if it's a moped or just an ebike with peddles. That body looks dope AF
I disagree completely. You can live stream with a smart phone and a $10 dollar microphone. It's pretty low effort to spend even just a few minutes doing so. If you're not going to spend money on PR, then the least you can do as the leader of a company is address your customers. People have already put money down, it's the least you can do.
@@trowantechworks Low effort? Uuuh, I take it that you've never done PR, branding, and marketing before. Going by how they brand themselves, they do spend a decent chunk on marketing, branding, and PR but I doubt that's in their guide or have time to do a live stream every month and take away from other things they could be doing more important to production, specially the CEO. Like even kickstarters and indigogo in general don't give monthly reports to their backers. It's only when there is a delay or a milestone in production when they report something. But like I said, I agree they should give updates to let us know how production is going. I got an invite to their Kickoff event that's happening today. Looks like they have a panel to answer questions and updates. So that's what they spent their PR and effort on to update costumers instead of a monthly livestream which has more cons them pros. I have a communications background btw just to give some perspective.
@@HokkaidoSan I'm not saying that PR in general is low effort. Sure, there is a lot more than meets the eye there, and if you don't have the money then well, you just don't. I'm saying that it is low effort for Storm to take 15 minutes out of 44,000 to talk to consumers that are feeling skeptical about the lack of clear information regarding the specs of the bike.
Still waiting on mine. Customer service isn't helpful after multiple calls. I'm from the first round, but I'm still here waiting... Their website won't let me pay the ridiculous $700 shipping because of something on their end, and their customer service isn't helpful. Their entire process has felt way shadier than it should... If they'd had a smoother process, I'd probably have bought 4 ebikes from them by now for my family and be recommending them to friends, but this route they've chosen doesn't do them any favors... Whenever I get my Metabike and someone asks about it, I'm probably going to tell them to steer clear of Spondors... which is a bummer if their products actually are any good..
I PROMISE the deliveries won't happen! I have a Sonders Madmods, so many people order them only to wait 6 months for delivery. They would set a date, date cams and went, only to wait another 4 months
Poor performance isn't the only problem I foresee. I don't believe the Metacycle has J1772 charging capability? Try finding a standard outlet to plug into for 3-4 hours somewhere out on the road. That massive hub motor (unsprung weight) has to be a handling nightmare. It's cheap and that's the only reason any motorcycle engineer would do that. I noticed Super73 has redesigned their C1X and relocated the motor out of the hub. Smart move.
Wheel torque is wheel torque. I accounted for the gear ratio and multiplied torque at the rear for the mid drive on the Zero. When Sondors lists motor torque, it is also the wheel torque. Not sure what you mean?
@@trowantechworks motors do not always have a linear torque curve. They seem to drop off near the upper RPM's. I could be totally wrong, but I own 5x E-bikes. Most of them have the same max speed. I've noticed that the hub motors struggle more at higher RPM vs mid-drive systems.
@@JonathanVegas1 yes. If you watched the video I mentioned this. I assumed peak torque for the sake of simplicity, and because we don't have any torque curve data for this motor. So the 0-60 times are worse than what I quoted.
They are trying to compete with companies like onyx, zero, and some super 73 models. While asking the consumer to pay 6k in advance on a bike that may not perform as expected. And be delivered as fast as expected. When I can order a zero S model today. Pay shipping and get a monthly payment of 260$ a month. They seriously expect people to pay 1k per month or 6k in total with all these question marks surrounding the bike?
Motorcycles are the worst thing to preorder - they take forever to go into production. Add electric on top of that and it's absolutely excruciating. It's like waiting for the next episode or season of a TV series - sometimes they get cancelled. I'd prefer to wait and binge the whole thing. Have they even swung into full production yet? Ready yourself for more changes and DFQs (dumb facking excuses) as to why the production is lagging. I'll stick to 500 CCs and 50 MPG for my economy motorcycle for now.
I don't think the average metacycle rider will be 200lbs, I think there will be a bias towards lighter rider. for the average full size pickup driver is probably way more than that and doesn't fit on a lightweight motorcycle. it's like supposing the average Sur Ron rider is 200lbs . it's not likely, and not matching the (small) sample I've seen
Sondors still have my $100 deposit. Wanted full payment. Yeah, riiiight. For vapor? No thanks. I am going to wait and see - but the deposit is on a Federal credit card. So they better be serious about delivery or refund.
Maybe 200 lbs without the battery, and 300 lbs with the battery and other modifications. Sondors is more likely to become very rich by succeeding, than a rich fugitive that has to look over his shoulder wherever he goes. My money is on him succeeding, after all he builds many other electric bikes!
Glad I cancelled my order and got a refund. I love the design of the bike, but this bike is too slow. I'm holding out for the Fuell Fllow even though it costs almost twice as much.
I asked for a refund in December of 2021. The website said $100 deposit. The next day I see a $5000 charge in my account. I canceled the order and have been trying to get my money back ever since. Anyone with the same experience want to share attorney costs? I see many people saying maybe I should ask for a refund. To them I say good luck with that!
I did try to dispute the charge (long story) but lets just say Chase Bank screwed up the dispute and now I have no recourse other than flying out to open a small claims case. Sondors keeps leading me on saying they are working on it. For 8 months? I think I am out 5 grand if I don't sue them.
Hey all! G here! Playing devils' advocate--- STORM: "These days, let’s be honest, there are tons of smart kids out there that can figure stuff out (with user-adjustable settings). And that’s perfectly fine. So our official position is that it’s ready, it’s tuned to the best performance you can possibly do." Matt: Yeah, an average travel speed of 40-45 mph gets you around 80 miles out of the bag.----So, yeah Trowan, once the Metacycle arrives, Let's compare math to real world, and see how it goes!
There are no affordable and usable electric motorcycles in the market. Everything is total marketing brainwash and always massivly overpriced. I really want one. I could afford a good one stretching my budget by alot, but I think, its not worth spending that much money and I won´t ever buy a gasoline moped because of noise and virbrations. For the price of a suitable moped and all the gear and licence, that would get me a really nice car.
I hear ya Frank. How much would you ideally want to spend? What if it were $3-4k shipping included. Would you be alright with 25 to 40 miles of range depending on how hard you ride? If quick charging was an option, would you really need more range than that? Low cost can be done but there will be tradeoffs...
@@trowantechworks I got the Horwin CR6 in mind. That's barely enough for my daily ride to work, because I can't charge there on a 230V outlet. That would be considered stealing power. It has a decent charger, too. That's why the TC max won't be an option. I need minimum 40 miles of range, but there is no other way than a motorway half the way and I don't want to be tailgated by big trucks on a moped. The other option is Alrendo TS bravo. That bike is around 11.000€ and weighs 240kg, but it has much more power, very big battery that I don't really need and a type 2 connector, that I could use at work. The Horwin is not enough to drive anywhere else but work. I wouldn't mind low mileage, but charging takes ages even on a type 2 charger. Only Harley can charge ccs. Edit: Just found the Urbet Nura. Very hard to find something at all. It was announced with 7000€, is now >9000€ and the datasheet looks like some marketing guy wrote it. No useful information.
My sister is 40 miles from here. I would be stuck there for minimum 4 hours and still have to drive slow to make it back home. If the battery ages, I won't make it at all. That bike is 6000€ already. I need an additional license (600€) and gear (1000€ maybe), too. Very expensive hobby. I can get 300€ a year, because it's electric, but I don't know how long they will pay that. Can be cancelled any time.
You
Were
Right.
Everything you said was spot on. Took delivery last week. Acceleration is slow top speed 73mph, range about 40 miles (150lb rider). Battery is not removable the way it was shown to be. I have had a few mechanical quality issues. One of the foot pegs exploded and shot off the end cap and spring across my garage, the display screen stopped working during my first ride, and the cell phone charging compartment is really cheap doors rubs, squeaks and is sticky and has an uneven floor with no nonslip padding for the phone. Phone just flops around hitting the inside as you move the bike around. Also seems to be no regen braking that it should have to safely slow and stop the bike not to mention increase range closer to what was promised.
Great video and thanks for your research and number crunching. You have reminded everyone why pre-ordering ANYTHING is always pretty risky. Ima go smash that like button now.
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, pre-ordering can either end up giving you something great, or maybe ending up in a product limbo for years before delivery. Or maybe you never get it at all and they run away with your money. Anywho, I hope it's the former with this one.
I preordered and paid in full to save an extra $750 to reserve and pay over time. Now they upped the pre order price to $6000 so I guess I saved a thou there. But I was expecting this by now and I still don’t know what the shipping cost is. I also was not fond of the DOT regulation modification adjustments that warped the ascetic. By the time this comes it’s going to look like master shake after plastic surgery.
Great video homie everything you said was spot on.
These Sonder f'ers were/are sitting on a gold mine of innovation & market niche but they fumbled HARD
I'm watching your show from the year 2005
I think it's safe to say to save up another $5,000 and buy a slightly used Zero SR
Ryvid looks promising. I'm hoping they pull it off
You're right, I DO deserve more information. Like how do I win my bet money with you when Sondors delivers on schedule. #gimmemymoney
Can I test ride it first, before handing over a chunk of money?
Wanted this bike. But I'm not waiting 5 years yo get one. I've moved on. And no zero for me, selling all the upgrades like a tesla. Just put shit on bike and sell it for the price. Gonna buy a sur-ron. Just to have fun
I'm not someone who pre-orders as a rule, but the promotionals on the Metacycle promised some very good qualities. I talked with them and was just on the edge of committing to buying from the second run of production in early July. All the previous delays seemed justifiably linked to supply chain issues during Covid and were in the past. Then the delivery of the first line was delayed *again*. Again, there were solid walls of confidence from Sondors up to and even a few days after the delay in delivery. They were still relying on old production images, and then a live demo where three bikes were out but nobody but Sondors is shown riding one or talking about them. This company has a cancerous issue in communicating with customers, and making promises that fail to materialize. I need to see them out, in the hands of the public, before I would ever look at buying. Even then, it says a sad thing about this company that I will trust a random UA-camr's unboxing video over anything they have said over the last two years. If I am convinced to buy, these would be the same people I would rely on for any warranty issues, recalls, or parts down the road...Can somebody else pick up the mantle of reliable electric for commuting at up to 50mph? Someone not in China? Someone not asking five figures?
I was debating ordering the metacycle vs the black tea bonfire X. The specs def seemed too good to be true, but also the styling killed it for me. The 'removable' battery looks like it's going to be stupid heavy. Then seeing all the changes to meet DOT requirements showed that they weren't really paying attention. The Black Tea has lower specs, but it looks more realistic, and they aren't trying to make any technological breakthroughs. Just using what works to make a fun bike. I'm placing an order for the Bonfire X(5 month wait so it might still show up before the metacycle). I like something that I can customize instead of vaporware.
I'm right on the verge of asking for a refund at this point. You're right something definitely stinks here big time. Even underperforming it will still work for my use case, but I just don't know if I can trust the company at all anymore. Would you get on a motorcycle engineered by a company that left its specs 33+% pounds underweight for what over a year now? That's not a small error. It's a lie, a lie that they used to sell what was already fuzzy math as something plausible.
Sondors needs to respond and do so quickly or I'm out.
You also have to consider that this is not the first time it has happened. The Madmods ebike also came in grossly overweight (almost double) and under performance. So they knew they needed to be careful with calculating this. The only way this could happen would be outright deliberate misinformation OR gross incompetence. Then again they also forgot about DOT regulations and had to slap on additional lights and reflectors . . .
Cancel it, it's the safer choice
I'm not here to tell you whether to cancel or not. But I can tell you that I don't completely trust the engineering on this bike.
@@Bigrignohio I'm wondering if it's incompetence and bad communication between Sondors and the engineers in China.
@@trowantechworks Going from 200lbs to 300lbs means that the weight of the frame AT LEAST doubled (assuming a generous 100lbs for battery, motor and wheels). More likely more than double as the battery alone should be well over 50lbs. Combined with the Madmods fiasco I cannot see any way it was not deliberate misinformation.
Most of the claims out there suck when it comes to real world range. There are however ever more new projects who claim rediculous stuff. 100 Mph, 200 pounds curb weight, 150 mile average range and still a 4 Kw battery on board? In real life you get nothing for free. People should first focus on getting a feeling on what can real. So more video's like these please. I for one would be very interested to receive your calculations. My present rule of thumbs are are comparable to yours: For real life use an average of 1,1 KW battery capacity per 10 km (approx. 6 mile) range. So f you want to travel 150 km (approx. 100 miles) you need at least a 15KW battery and if you want to go 200 km you need a t least a 20 Kw battery (see, meters / km are much easier to calculate with!). Although the volumetric problem for bikes has been solved in the last few years one would still be hard pressed to such capacities in a 250 kg (= approx. 500 pounds) motorcycle. As far as power is concerned I think that 30 to 40 KW continuous via a good old fashioned gear box is more then enough. Motorcycle riding is after all about more then just twisting the grip at the traffic lights. I am trying to develop such a bike myself and have the rolling chassis finished for about 90 %. The costs for the electronics an batteries alone are however still about $ 5000 to $ 6.000. So can these hype bikes exist at all? Only if you do not plan to ride further then the next street corner!
Howdy, I have a vision of a likely future for metacycle customers. Why? Because I'm a Sondors MadMods customer and I've already experienced what Metacycle customers have started going through.
So, Sondors MadMods... It is an emoped style ebike originally sold for $1,500 advertising a weight of 65lbs, top speed of 28+mph, and a variety of swappable parts. It didn't take long for all of that go change. Now it is $3,500 (lol), weighs 116lbs, software limited to 25mph on the display, and certain parts (seat on the scrambler, tire on retro, and fender on cafe) either don't exist or arent as advertised. How did customers find out? Sondors just quietly updated their website as they began actually shipping bikes. In addition many bikes were delivered damaged because they shipped 120lbs of bike as if it was a 65lb bike. No apologies, no official statements, just the expectation for the customer to deal with it.
I called it on reddit that the weight was BS months ago. Now I suspect you'll see some specs quietly change, but only when the bikes are close to shipping. They want the false specs up so they can sell more bikes. I will bet the top speed decrease and 0-60 time decrease happens after price increases.
Obviously I'm bitter about the way Sondors treated me as a customer. But to close out on a positive note, so far my experience with Xion has been the polar opposite. Sondors ought to look at what Xion did for the CyberX and use that as an example of how to treat customers and how to develop a bike and change specs. CyberX is significantly different than the bike on their campaign video and the team kept people updated through the process. Hell, I think the CyberX might end up potentially having better performance than Metacycle.
Sorry to hear that you dealt with that already with the MadMods bike. I've heard the same thing from others. I'm betting you're right, and that they will de-rate the performance of the bike.
I've been watching Xion closely and everything you said is spot on. They have handled their customer base well.
There could be refunds in the thousands, but the order numbers and some dialog between customers and company suggest they have pre-sold tens of thousands of these things, so they're not breaking a sweat. We have given them interest-free loans, over a year now for me.
And I theorize the weight increase is because they assumed they could get the frame cut from billet aluminum which is much stronger, therefore less material making it much lighter. Going to a cast frame is soft, weak metal, so it takes way more material.
They have padded the order numbers and I was told that they do not represent the true number of bikes - just divide their number by 10.
When they start coming over here, it doesn't matter what the weight or acceleration will be. If it's $5000 or $6000 and can go over 65, it will sell like crazy.
Yeah I don't think the acceleration is a deal breaker. It's more how the company saying one thing but the specs don't back that up. It's sketchy for a manufacturer to have conflicting information.
0 to 60 is not a big deal, dont forget you wont be changing gear so will still be quick and smooth..
I agree, all these other companies are like "yeah, everyone can still afford a $40,000 bike, right?". We're not looking for flashy Harley's or Honda's here. Same with electric cars.
Nice timing on this video and I think it ties in nicely with the recent MBVHD [should be MKBHD - Marques Brownlee] video about pre-ordering EV cars. From the beginning I've been skeptical the Metacycle could match the hype and am glad I didn't order one before independent reviews are out. The Super 73 announcement is already in the same pattern with a few performance targets listed to generate interest but little else. Like you, I want to see vehicles like these succeed. It's a tricky market between the electric mopeds and full-size electric motorcycles to maneuver in and I think we'll see a few failures before a company figures out the formula.
I'm not familiar with MBVHD, do you have a link to it?
Yeah I agree, I'm always a skeptic but am also rooting for these companies because we need more bikes like these on the market. Its better for the consumer. Time will tell, but I think they'll figure it out. Or China will get smart and sell their own bikes in the U.S. and beat the U.S. manufacturers.
@@trowantechworks they meant MKBHD. Marques Brownlee. His newest video encapsulates this Sondors situation without directly mentioning it. He’s got like 15 million subs. He also made it to Forbes’ 30 under 30
@@jar-jar3806 sweet I'll check it out. Thanks!
@jar-jar Thanks for explaining my typo :)
That's was a great recommendation, thanks. Alternatively, you could look at his video as a "how to start en ev company and raise money and hype" tutorial. I want a 5 million dollar interest free loan too. 🤔
I think riding one would be better than all these charts
Yeah I got a refund a while ago. I caught the whiff of dookie and bailed early
Here's a fun point you missed, taxes and shipping aren't calculated until the ship date and we all know how much the cost of those overseas shipping containers has gone up lol. That was the final breaking point for me before getting a refund.
Ah yes. I knew I was forgetting something. Haha. Great point, thanks for sharing.
How much did it come to?
@@trowantechworks 'l've been hammering this point with Sonders as much as I can...I got out of them that they deal with third party shipper, final assembly is stateside,.I live within driving distance to 5 deep water ports East coast/gulf regions, which definitely would reduce cost of CA delays and then shipping to GA, but they then disclose the final assembly stuff, they may literally have some trucker don white gloves and ride to my driveway, that would be so special, ha ha
Thanks for the research on this bike. I am one of the first 2000, so I get a special signature series. Whoopity doo!! I've been waiting well over a year now. Just paid shipping charges (700$) so I should be disappointed here soon. I'll probably post it for sale as soon as I get it.
I'm still awaiting for my White Metacycle to eventually arrive. I completely agree with you that their specs are highly optimistic.
Still I plan on using it to ride around town locally. I'll use my ICE Motorcycle for the long trips. I wanted a simple electric motorcycle as a backup to my gas motorcycle.
I also have a Red Rover Fat Tire Mountain Bike, which is fun to ride around town. It also helps me get some exercise in while helping me climb large hills.
Once I get my Metacycle, I'll put it through its paces and see how it works. If I can manage the time (CDL Truck Driver here). I plan on making some UA-cam videos on the bike when I get it.
I'll just record a bunch of footage on my Drift camera and edit it while I'm out on the road. Haven't posted any videos in a long time but I'll try to pass along any useful information that I find out.
I still have my 2007 YZF600R Super Sport Motorcycle. So if the Metacycle's performance sucks, I have a backup! LOL
good to see you back on the case. got my refund back in December and thought I'd put it into a Xion Cyber X but... videos finally coming out from the very first indiegogo backers and... it's... um.... so now I'm back to square one and probably just going to get en Onyx RCR like I originally planned
After the last Video and this Your my New numbers man Dude!! Thank You for all you do! I'm so glad I subscribed to you because you use science to equate logic and the obvious plan for these Company's is to go away and come back with the finished product instead they announce a bike before they've finished it! I know someone who has one on order and I know he will regret his actions soon!! It's such a shame!!! Cheers Trowan Techworks
Thanks for the feedback, glad you enjoyed and got value from the video.
I got a refund and bought a 2022 Zero FX. There is no way the Metacycle specs are correct. My FX has almost twice the battery and 3x the motor power and weights 289 lbs...and it's top speed is 85 and max range (city) is 91 miles....but freeway speeds. I'm getting 40ish. So, I 100% agree with you assessment.
They refunded $5,000 to you? That's inspiring I've been waiting for my refund since December and just get a run around.
Here we are in mid-July and the first batch are in transit to the US for final assembly. Look at you with your sagely predictions. I'm curious what your numbers look like with a rider >200 pounds. I know the average American man is about 200 pounds but there's a hell of a range there. I'm 6'2" 250 and I feel as if the Metacycle might fail to meet even modest range requirements and might be unfit for 70mph highways for people such as me. They say their maximum weight limit is 400 pounds but that seems...ambitious. It's an electric scooter with a cool motorcycle frame.
Thanks for your video - someone needs to get Sondors to tell the truth about their specs. #TrueMath
Thanks for the feedback!
You should start using metric units.
I sincerely appreciate all the information and analysis you have provided on this bike. I am a newbie...novice...ignorant first timer if you like in the ebike space. I am told because of the early timing of my order I have "Elite Status." I know I know...everyone is told this and I should take the fish hook out of my mouth. However my question has to do with your discussions of "unlocking" the bike or hacking and modifying the bike's software to increase performance. Supposedly my bike will have, "Two Unique Power Modes. Eco Mode with limits to 100kph/62mph and Sport Mode allowing full speed + power." Assuming this is a real feature...what are your thoughts? Would either of these modes impact your calculations? Could "Sport Mode" be referring to an "unlocked" or intentionally "hacked" version of the bike? I really look forward to your reply and value your expertise. Kind regards.
Thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated! And unless sport mode produces more power or torque than what is listed on their official website, no. I am simply using the specs that they provided. Now could the information on the website be wrong? Sure. Maybe the Metacycle can put out more than 14.5kW in Sport mode. But Sondors has not published this information.
I canceled my order in March because of all the reasons you mentioned in the beginning of this video.
They were having the same specs issue when they came out with their fat tire e-bike. Calculations figured less range than the posted range on the website. The bike did come out late, but overall most people were happy with it. It sold for $499. Let's hope the Metacycle is not too far off their specs. Maybe I could get down to 99 pounds, but I wouldn't want bullies kicking sand on me.
Great bit of content man, and because of you I'm keepong my $14000 in my wallet because this company is bs.
Love it man!! We're all about keeping it 💯 too
Great Video...here we are one year later and it looks like the ship has gone and Sunk : /
What might your thoughts be on that, Trowan?
it's sunk. time to scrap what's left off of the ocean floor
I wonder why they kept the hole in the frame as compared to integrating a luggage compartment. Sure, it makes the bike look unique, but also makes it less practical. Maybe even increasing drag.
@trowan will you being a breakdown of the Xion Cyber X now that they are being delivered? Are you getting one?
Ali had told me that he wanted me to review one. So I am hoping to get to do so. I didn't order one, as the bike isn't really my style. I'm more of a DIY guy. But I'd love to be able to test a CyberX and actually record/publish data from it.
Hi handsome. More videos please, on metacycle customer service.
This company has been such a joke.
I got a refund
Thank you for the great video! I contacted them and this was their response. I am curious what your thoughts are. I have been contemplating canceling but your video convinced me that is not likely to be the bike advertised.
Apr 3, 2022, 12:26 PM PDT
Hello,
Thank you for contacting us. I hope you're having a great Sunday!
Allow me to add our list of specs for the Metacycle.
Motor PMAC hub motor 8kW (11hp) nominal 14.5kW (20hp) Peak
Torque 80 ft-lbs. nominal, 130 ft-lbs. peak
Front Suspension USD forks compression & rebound adjustable
Rear Suspension Direct (no linkage) compression & rebound adjustable
Brakes Single disc, hand actuated
Speed Up to 80 mph, 0-60 approx. 6 seconds
Range Up to 80 miles
Battery 4kW hours Lithium-ion battery (Weight 54 Lbs)
Frame Custom forged, weld-free, single piece exclusive cast aluminum
Charging Compact at 8” x 4” x 3” and approx. 7 lbs., Up to 15A/1.2 kW, Charge time is about 3 hours and 45 min. on either a 110v or 240v outlet
Wireless Phone Charger Clear cover phone port for easy viewing + navigation, 6.7"L x 3.6"W x 1.25"H
Total Weight 300 lbs.
Dimensions 76" long, 44" tall, 32" wide at handlebars
Seat Height 31.5"
Load Capacity 400 lbs
Thank you for your quick response. The Metacycle has gained another 100 pounds, but it will not impact its performance. You can stay calm as nothing has changed but the weight. Regarding your request, before I proceed, I wanted to make sure that you're up to date on the latest manufacturing, shipping, and live event updates we have planned.
In addition, I see you are locked in at a $5,000 price, this is the lowest price Metacycles will ever be! I wanted to let you know that SONDORS Metacycle price was at $5,000 and this introductory pricing has ended. Our new orders are available for Q4 2022 at the $6,000(or potentially higher) price point as you've noticed on our SONDORSX page.
I wanted to let you know that SONDORS Metacycle is anticipated to ship early round 1 orders this upcoming June and you are locked in at the limited time offer of our $5,000 price point.
Besides this, allow me to explain the benefits since you are indeed part of our limited edition first production round of Metacycles.
- They have confirmed production and shipping estimated dates. April for final production and June 2022 for shipping of 1st round.
- The SondorsX page states in specs that Metacycles will be fitted with Kenda tires. While Kenda is great tires; we're giving 1st rounders exclusive Michelin tires as was promised by Storm back during the introduction.
- All 1st round production orders will be personally signed by our Founder/CEO Storm Sondors
Our live test ride event is coming very soon. We are scouting locations right now.
We'll have tons of new content including production photos and test rides. And just for a sneak peek we even have a special Jay Leno project in the near future.
If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact us again.
All the best
Well I bought and paid for two of them. My need is different and I like the futuristic styling. Hope it works out. Can't really beat the price. Hope it's all for real.
For 6k it's a bargain and 1/2 , this dude is ridiculous
I bought a Zero SRS in 2020, and a coworker of mine drives a Model S. So we wound up chatting at the charging stations.... turns out he wanted a motorcycle too and was excitedly waiting for a Sondor motorcycle. The last time I talked to him about it he was still waiting. IDK if he asked for his money back yet or not. I've ridden 22k miles in that time, while all he has is an order for a bike.
Nice video. Will you do one on the Rivid Anthem?
Did sondors deliver, it's mid July now?
Thanks for this video. I’m still holding out. Even tho these guys suck and they’re messing up the bike at every change. For my intended purposes I think it’s still gonna be ok. I ride my little Onyx RCR all over my town and love it. I’ve been on the edge of cancellation for a year just because of the awful communication.
I admire your patience and willingness to hang on. I hope that you get a great product for waiting it out 👍
I was looking at the onyx but missed the preorder. After they jacked up the price this looked like much more bang for the buck. I don’t mind as much that it could accelerate more slowly but I do want that 80mph for a sustained period of time. Cruising on the highway and able to pass grandmas.
@@gaslampnation735 I’m hoping we all get a bike that still satisfies our reasons for purchasing
Anyone have any other suggestions on what to buy? I was heavily interested in the meta cycle for the price and EV charging
I wanted Metacycle for commuting so when they moved the ship date from Q4 to Q3 I paid the $5k and then when Q4 hit and there was no sign of production or even that design was locked, I got a refund.
Now it's the end of May and I am checking back to see how the bikes are doing in peoples hands, and I see they haven't made it out of China yet.
I never cared about top speed or acceleration with this bike. I just wanted it to get to 60mph so I can drive the 23 miles to work and 23 miles back on mostly rural highways with a short freeway run. But I was worried it wouldn't make it both ways without charging since I am heavier than 200 and it is about 8 minutes of walking to carry that heavy battery from the parking lot to my work shop and I didn't see any wheels on that battery.
I wonder if its a custom ESC or if its some hacked version that's already out there. I'm waiting for the KO Motor for my Surron thing should fly after that.
do another video on the cyberx
Relax...breathe...it's only a $5K commuter bike. All will be fine in the end regardless.
I think the hub drive may prove to be a mistake, they have less torque and a lot of unsprung weight so pot holes etc could damage the motor and wheel.
I have ebikes with mid and done with hub and mid is better for off road but having said that the hub drives are doing ok.
I'll bet August for first deliveries
I always thought that 200 would be way too light simply for stability -- handling bumps and wind gusts
Yeah a weight increase is not necessarily a bad thing. For security purposes too. But not increasing the power/torque to account for this is just...bad
Not true, the Sur Ron X is under 200lbs and it handles fine.
@@mountainbikerdave Surron x, under 60 MPH, true :D otherwise that thing will shimmy and crash
@@mannyechaluce3814 I'll disagree, people are out there doing it.
If you're crashing simply because you are going fast, then In my opinion that's more of a skill gap on the rider.
But the scary thing is, anyone (including someone who has never rode a motorcycle before) can just buy Sur Ron X and modify it to go 90 MPH.
So if that's the scenario that you're talking about, then yes, they'll more then likely crash.
Riding requires skill which is not something you can simply buy.
Stability isn’t dependant on weight. It’s more a case of a well calibrated suspension, attention paid to aerodynamics, actual wheelbase, etc.
They should fill that silly hole with SuperCaps, charged by regen, that would help acceleration.
I agree. Let's crowd source a super cap module for Metacycle to improve the 0-60 time
Its funny..I made a decent electric motorcycle from a Emmo Zone ebike, using a 6000 watt hub motor, Kelly Controller and big 4000 WH battery and pulling about 23000 watts, the bike would do a top speed of 130 KPH (In fav conditions), get to 100 KPH in about 8.5 seconds and get about 40-50 km range in the city, so this is no surprise ..it does however make me irritated when ALL electric companies exaggerate the range and performance of their products. So in a comparison this Sondors bike is slower than my Smart Car EQ from -60. Wow..
dude your vids are so entertaining
This entire bike is the Fyre Festival with 2 wheels version 👌. DONT BELIEVE THERE HYPE...also plenty of people told others about there previous products getting delivered late or not at all.
After again a delay in shipping.... I cancelled my order last December and asked for a refund. We are now several months further and I am still waiting for my refund!! I really do not understand how they can operate like this. No respond on mails....am I the only one with this experience?
Bottom line, if it’s less than 72v it’ll be lacking on thrill and smiles-per-mile. But this ebike is properly equipped, eg: brakes under both hands, parking brake, and reverse … all of which are absent on Harley’s Livewire and Zeros.
They were things I liked also, I had a Fatboy, so that reverse as I get older is a big positive. I wish security was better, ie with an app...I mean that damn alarm could ring till the battery dies if your not close. I also don't see a mechanism for locking the forks... I'm still hanging on but they're not making it easy..
So it's a cool looking motorcycle that's going to perform more like an electric scooter. The price point makes sense if that's the true performance target all along and I imagine it'll still fill a lot of people's needs for city and short distance commuting. I just wonder if Sondors is doing more harm than good by letting marketing run this much of the show when engineering's numbers might have been more clear all along.
I'm in the 2nd wafer of production have had my metacycle completely paid off since like Janualry. 0-60 is not that important, range is more important to me. My work is 15 miles out, so I need at least 30 mile range for the commute (most is highway). Hopefully that would be enough. Hopefully i'll get it this year.
You need balls to take that thing to the highway, there is no way you will make it buddy.
Well, I can’t say I enjoyed the video. (I did hit like. I mean you put a lot into making the video.) I am a paid up Metacycle “owner”? I got an email telling me I’m in the first batch, signed and shod in Michelin tires. To be delivered in June. I live where it snows so I would like it in time to ride it. Thanks for bumming me out first thing in the morning. Oh well, maybe it’ll be a step up from my SurRon. Although, @ 300# I’m not so sure. I do like the low weight of the SurRon. I’d just like a freeway legal top speed. Anyway I can probably get my money back if I don’t like it, I imagine the price will go up. Thanks for the info.
I got my refund in December and bought the new Grom. I’d like to see the Metacycle do good but I got some doubts.
I've done similar range calculations, with enough accuracy for, let's just say, pioneer EV vehicles, and it all didn't add up, to the point where I was willing to head to Irvine CA to check it out myself, nothing but crickets about questions and calculations, everything they say, doesn't materialize or add up, so I yanked my money back, from a EV manufacturing stand point, ya have to wonder, they're selling motorcycles to already motorcycle owners likely (me), they're also selling an EV, my specialty, overall, the whole thing is disappointing
I disagree they have responded to every email i have sent them. I am still excited first production run are completed from comments on reddit. on time with what they told me a few months ago. we will see what they come out with
Can you ask them what they think of this video? Haha. Can they comment on this performance spec conflict of info?
IF I can be honest I am also planing to go for the Sondors metacycle but then I have seen the sunra miku super which is also seemingly wowi good and in a great price range as well with even fingerprint, app control, alarm and everything for about 3500 they say but it does "just" 70 ,...
I think the first delivery in Europe will be 2025!! Everytime when I ask for more information, it cost me several mails to get an answer. Very frustrating. And perhaps an idea to move to the new Super73-C1X, and cancel my Sondors order.
Sorry mate. I'm surprised that there aren't more European options popping up?
Cancel it, buy it when it's available 😅
They're a small company, they can't be doing once a month live feeds and better PR at this point. That's going to unnecessarily drive the cost up specially if it's a new product. The PR would be best spent once they have the product shipped. Their specs already aren't lining up so they need to spend that on R&D and quality control. haha Though they could be more transparent by doing monthly written updates and maybe a quarterly video update from the CEO since the customers are it's shareholders at this point since they're all pre-orders. My bet is the first orders wont be delivered until 4th quarter. I hope I'm wrong though haha. If this fails, someone should take that chassis and further this project. I don't even care if it's a moped or just an ebike with peddles. That body looks dope AF
I disagree completely. You can live stream with a smart phone and a $10 dollar microphone. It's pretty low effort to spend even just a few minutes doing so. If you're not going to spend money on PR, then the least you can do as the leader of a company is address your customers. People have already put money down, it's the least you can do.
As for whether there will be a liquidation of rolling Metacycle chassis....I'll be keeping my eyes peeled haha
@@trowantechworks Low effort? Uuuh, I take it that you've never done PR, branding, and marketing before. Going by how they brand themselves, they do spend a decent chunk on marketing, branding, and PR but I doubt that's in their guide or have time to do a live stream every month and take away from other things they could be doing more important to production, specially the CEO.
Like even kickstarters and indigogo in general don't give monthly reports to their backers. It's only when there is a delay or a milestone in production when they report something.
But like I said, I agree they should give updates to let us know how production is going. I got an invite to their Kickoff event that's happening today. Looks like they have a panel to answer questions and updates. So that's what they spent their PR and effort on to update costumers instead of a monthly livestream which has more cons them pros. I have a communications background btw just to give some perspective.
@@HokkaidoSan I'm not saying that PR in general is low effort. Sure, there is a lot more than meets the eye there, and if you don't have the money then well, you just don't. I'm saying that it is low effort for Storm to take 15 minutes out of 44,000 to talk to consumers that are feeling skeptical about the lack of clear information regarding the specs of the bike.
@@trowantechworks Dang I thought the same thing record a zoom session with smartphone and upload to the homepage...time is the only expense.
Still waiting on mine. Customer service isn't helpful after multiple calls. I'm from the first round, but I'm still here waiting... Their website won't let me pay the ridiculous $700 shipping because of something on their end, and their customer service isn't helpful. Their entire process has felt way shadier than it should... If they'd had a smoother process, I'd probably have bought 4 ebikes from them by now for my family and be recommending them to friends, but this route they've chosen doesn't do them any favors... Whenever I get my Metabike and someone asks about it, I'm probably going to tell them to steer clear of Spondors... which is a bummer if their products actually are any good..
Has anyone actually received this motorcycle? Its the end of July now...
There are a few videos of people getting them now in mid August
Thinking I should cancel my Sondors metasuck already 🤔
I PROMISE the deliveries won't happen! I have a Sonders Madmods, so many people order them only to wait 6 months for delivery. They would set a date, date cams and went, only to wait another 4 months
Poor performance isn't the only problem I foresee. I don't believe the Metacycle has J1772 charging capability? Try finding a standard outlet to plug into for 3-4 hours somewhere out on the road. That massive hub motor (unsprung weight) has to be a handling nightmare. It's cheap and that's the only reason any motorcycle engineer would do that. I noticed Super73 has redesigned their C1X and relocated the motor out of the hub. Smart move.
Your math may be wrong when compared to the mid drive system. This is a hub drive. Hub drives have inherently slower acceleration.
Wheel torque is wheel torque. I accounted for the gear ratio and multiplied torque at the rear for the mid drive on the Zero. When Sondors lists motor torque, it is also the wheel torque. Not sure what you mean?
@@trowantechworks motors do not always have a linear torque curve. They seem to drop off near the upper RPM's. I could be totally wrong, but I own 5x E-bikes. Most of them have the same max speed. I've noticed that the hub motors struggle more at higher RPM vs mid-drive systems.
@@JonathanVegas1 yes. If you watched the video I mentioned this. I assumed peak torque for the sake of simplicity, and because we don't have any torque curve data for this motor. So the 0-60 times are worse than what I quoted.
Share some of your spreadsheet calculators and tell Caesar whats up !!
your content is amazing! 👏
Thank you for the feedback.
Also hope it doesn't suck.
You should get stuck into Aptera; I have.
6k dude , lighten up
At 5 grand, if it can perform 1/2 of what is advertised, it still a cheap scooter to ride around the block
No doubt. I think it can be a fun little city cruiser. My beef is more with the company representing it as more than it really is.
They are trying to compete with companies like onyx, zero, and some super 73 models. While asking the consumer to pay 6k in advance on a bike that may not perform as expected. And be delivered as fast as expected. When I can order a zero S model today. Pay shipping and get a monthly payment of 260$ a month. They seriously expect people to pay 1k per month or 6k in total with all these question marks surrounding the bike?
No good videos on the product means not a great product. Glad I decided to wait to ride it first.
Got my refund back, qualified for the special founder edition that didn't exist 😆
It's gna get smoked by the mid drive motorcycle by super73 regardless
Motorcycles are the worst thing to preorder - they take forever to go into production. Add electric on top of that and it's absolutely excruciating. It's like waiting for the next episode or season of a TV series - sometimes they get cancelled. I'd prefer to wait and binge the whole thing. Have they even swung into full production yet? Ready yourself for more changes and DFQs (dumb facking excuses) as to why the production is lagging. I'll stick to 500 CCs and 50 MPG for my economy motorcycle for now.
I don't think the average metacycle rider will be 200lbs, I think there will be a bias towards lighter rider. for the average full size pickup driver is probably way more than that and doesn't fit on a lightweight motorcycle. it's like supposing the average Sur Ron rider is 200lbs . it's not likely, and not matching the (small) sample I've seen
I got my refund recently because I ended up buying a Honda for about the same price
Approaching AUGUST 1st. Still not 1 bike delivered.
I cancelled mine last october when the press released showed the production model looking really different i lost 100$ deposit
This sounds like that EV Truck. It's been so long, I forgot their name.
Okay now we're starting to see the light. So let's just safely estimate $10,000 instead of $5,000... 300 lb instead of 200 lb. Yep I'm out of there
Sondors still have my $100 deposit. Wanted full payment. Yeah, riiiight. For vapor? No thanks. I am going to wait and see - but the deposit is on a Federal credit card. So they better be serious about delivery or refund.
Maybe 200 lbs without the battery, and 300 lbs with the battery and other modifications. Sondors is more likely to become very rich by succeeding, than a rich fugitive that has to look over his shoulder wherever he goes. My money is on him succeeding, after all he builds many other electric bikes!
Next up:. Trowan Tech works' wife explains how he underperforms in the bed and backs it up with chicken scratch on a napkin! 🤣 Baaaahahahaaa!!!
Most clever comment I've gotten in a while. "Hunny, I swear it has something to do with that 100 lb weight gain"
Glad I cancelled my order and got a refund. I love the design of the bike, but this bike is too slow. I'm holding out for the Fuell Fllow even though it costs almost twice as much.
I asked for a refund in December of 2021. The website said $100 deposit. The next day I see a $5000 charge in my account. I canceled the order and have been trying to get my money back ever since. Anyone with the same experience want to share attorney costs? I see many people saying maybe I should ask for a refund. To them I say good luck with that!
I did try to dispute the charge (long story) but lets just say Chase Bank screwed up the dispute and now I have no recourse other than flying out to open a small claims case. Sondors keeps leading me on saying they are working on it. For 8 months? I think I am out 5 grand if I don't sue them.
Hey all! G here! Playing devils' advocate--- STORM: "These days, let’s be honest, there are tons of smart kids out there that can figure stuff out (with user-adjustable settings). And that’s perfectly fine. So our official position is that it’s ready, it’s tuned to the best performance you can possibly do." Matt: Yeah, an average travel speed of 40-45 mph gets you around 80 miles out of the bag.----So, yeah Trowan, once the Metacycle arrives, Let's compare math to real world, and see how it goes!
Why do the cheaper bikes have less volts and motor wattage ratings that a kids fucking kickscooter? WEPED is rated at 20kw motor...
I got my metacycle in. Vin 0030 it's great motorcycle
What do you think so far?
There are no affordable and usable electric motorcycles in the market.
Everything is total marketing brainwash and always massivly overpriced.
I really want one. I could afford a good one stretching my budget by alot, but I think, its not worth spending that much money and I won´t ever buy a gasoline moped because of noise and virbrations.
For the price of a suitable moped and all the gear and licence, that would get me a really nice car.
I hear ya Frank. How much would you ideally want to spend? What if it were $3-4k shipping included. Would you be alright with 25 to 40 miles of range depending on how hard you ride? If quick charging was an option, would you really need more range than that? Low cost can be done but there will be tradeoffs...
@@trowantechworks I got the Horwin CR6 in mind. That's barely enough for my daily ride to work, because I can't charge there on a 230V outlet. That would be considered stealing power.
It has a decent charger, too. That's why the TC max won't be an option.
I need minimum 40 miles of range, but there is no other way than a motorway half the way and I don't want to be tailgated by big trucks on a moped.
The other option is Alrendo TS bravo.
That bike is around 11.000€ and weighs 240kg, but it has much more power, very big battery that I don't really need and a type 2 connector, that I could use at work.
The Horwin is not enough to drive anywhere else but work.
I wouldn't mind low mileage, but charging takes ages even on a type 2 charger.
Only Harley can charge ccs.
Edit: Just found the Urbet Nura. Very hard to find something at all.
It was announced with 7000€, is now >9000€ and the datasheet looks like some marketing guy wrote it. No useful information.
My sister is 40 miles from here. I would be stuck there for minimum 4 hours and still have to drive slow to make it back home.
If the battery ages, I won't make it at all.
That bike is 6000€ already.
I need an additional license (600€) and gear (1000€ maybe), too.
Very expensive hobby.
I can get 300€ a year, because it's electric, but I don't know how long they will pay that. Can be cancelled any time.