Hi @babaluto! Watch out for the High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) in Hi-C. I almost completely ruined my liver (my health and my life) by eating/drinking stuff with HFCS throughout my life (I'm 72 now).
@@a5-30-31cts Thank you for sharing that. I've actually never had Hi-C nor do I consume refined sugars of any kind. The liver, if given the glutathione support can come back from near destruction to robust health.
Great point that 1C or 2C is not the main point, the charge curve is. For me, 10% to 90% in 30 minutes would be plenty fast. If my math is right, that's 1.7C average,* but maximum would need to be more. How much more would depend on how flat the curve is. Ideally, the flatter, the better, and I hope Aptera can engineer a very flat curve. Tim has lots of work to do! *(1.7C for 44 mWe would be 75kWe)
Thanks Steve and Tim, I would like to understand how the Korean battery supplier fits in and if there is any concern regarding Maxeon as the primary battery supplier with their current issues?
@@PandaKnight52 Correct, I missed that (slip-up?) but still related and concerning. More accurately, Maxeon makes the solar cells that Aptera then encapsulates/presses into its several curved solar panels.
Great info Steve, Tim. thanks! It seems to me that the standard charging use (in sunny areas) is going to be with the onboard solar array. What will be the effect on the battery pack of this “trickle charging” and also Level 1- L2 charging at home. Will we be able to comfortably charge the pack to 100%? Or will we be better off charging at home to 80%, and have solar charging capped to say 90%? I still want DC fast charging, but personally I am only expecting to use this capability a few times a year. It will be helpful to know how to optimize the Aptera EV’s charging for the least degradation under normal use.
Daily charge cap of 100% or 80% mostly depends on the battery chemistry (LiPo or NMC, for example). Yes, it will be great to know recommended SoC% & degradation curve for longevity purpose.
Of course with different materials there are different expansion contraction rates of charges of temperature and mechanical charges of stress. . . These are recorded with strain gauge data. . . And acrilic effects. . . On another note
up to 100kW being possible leaves room for future upgraded battery tech, for example solid state batteries. some chinese phones can already charge at 10C.😊
If they don't lock in on something, then they will be in a constant development phase and not production phase. They are not even in the testing phase right now, so it shows how far they are to actually making a consumer product.
I don't believe it will need active cooling because the battery pack itself is not in the sun and the power going into the pack is not a ton, so heat generation is next to non when solar charging. Tesla's battery can get up to 120F and still pump in 160kw worth of power. So putting in a mear 700 watts even at 125F which I'm sure that battery won't ever get to just sitting outside. Probably would have to be in death valley for those numbers. But Aptera is a genius company maybe they will be able to cut on automatic cooling for 5 minutes to knock the battery temp down using the solar and a little battery.
Negligible heating is incorrect, at 13.5amp per cell at max discharge rate from display data of the beta build, that is over the 10amp rating of the cell, they are going to get hot. Its getting close to 3c discharge rate. ( hoping aoc will calculate the heating since we now know the max current draw). He seems to miss an important point, the smaller the pack the more the pack heating, there will be higher amp draw per cell ( less cells in parallel), it will get hotter. The smaller the pack the higher the heating rate, its not the same rate for any size pack, he seems to lack some basic understanding of lithium packs. That might even find the small packs wont be able to handle the same power draw as the larger packs, seems they are still a long way off even the basics of the motor/battery pack. Smaller pack versions might be power limited due to heating issues. He says 50kw will be 1C charge rate for the aptera, well that depends on the size of the pack being used, this is not clear information from supposed battery expert. They are years away from even being close to having a reliable tested system. A long explanation of extrusion of aluminium, they are going to extrude that large tray that holds the batteries? I would like to see that!
This would have been a great series if released 1st qtr. '23, while the BinC was being tooled, not 18 months later. Ditto for the motor development with the vendors, cooling system prototyping, wiring harness development, chassis and suspension development, pilot line, etc.. Yeah, that followup to the Beta via a pair of full system mules and all the development that should have been done with them. Sorry, not sorry, I've been a broken record pointing this out since the BinC release. 1,000's of missing hours. You care because: - The development track record is so far behind the curve, it doesn't suggest they will ever see enough funds to cover them in Apturtle mode. - If the production design goes anything like the development phase, you'll never see this thing at any price you would be willing to pay, if they are to be viable. And the worst thing: It is highly unlikely it will be a fulled-sorted quality product. A shame. It could have been. The turning point was "PI's completed in the first few months of next year" and "crash data by mid-year", because they were nearing the end of the "promise period" and having to transition to the "doing period". They totally blew '23. Transparency simply shows it's caught up with them. He said he started in February. Should have been February '23, no?
Just referring to range estimates given by Aptera staff. Since there is no way to corroborate their data, I find myself going through test drive videos looking for data. This video is rather good one since it shows some good data ua-cam.com/video/if81LYYWwoY/v-deo.html Range estimate can be produced using this video. The display showed 77% full at the start and 73% full at the end. So 4% of battery capacity got 1.5km ( fairly harsh drive with full throttle often). That means 1% of battery gets you 375m. So lets say you drive using 100% of battery capacity, that will get you 375x100=37500m or 38km. Realistically you cant use all 100% of battery, lets say 10% capacity not useable. You could go 34km......thats not bad considering it was bad driving style. Since aptera has been unable to show any real world range tests, it means this is best estimate I can give. I dont know the battery pack on the beta vehicle, if anyone knows its capacity or layout please let me know.
Hey Tim, you definitely earned yourself an Aptera shirt! ;-)
or 2
Very good interview and knowlageable engineer.
Good engineer, not promising what he hasn't tested yet.
An Aptera first!
Thanks for doing this interview Tim, this is great information to get out to the public!! Thank you for bring this to us Steve!
Great interview and great answers by an engineer who knows his stuff and how to explain it.
Great interview.
Thanks for posting.
Nothing crazy new, but great engineer chat (yes, I’m a trained electrical engineer).
Charge on!
A lot of great info again. Thank you.
I love drinking my Hi-C with a side dish of nomenclature. Good stuff.
Hi @babaluto! Watch out for the High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) in Hi-C. I almost completely ruined my liver (my health and my life) by eating/drinking stuff with HFCS throughout my life (I'm 72 now).
@@a5-30-31cts Thank you for sharing that. I've actually never had Hi-C nor do I consume refined sugars of any kind. The liver, if given the glutathione support can come back from near destruction to robust health.
extrusion is like play-dough you squeeze a soften material thru a die to get a shape
In fact, I think when I was very young, I had a Play Dough set that had shapes that could be extruded.
Great point that 1C or 2C is not the main point, the charge curve is. For me, 10% to 90% in 30 minutes would be plenty fast. If my math is right, that's 1.7C average,* but maximum would need to be more. How much more would depend on how flat the curve is. Ideally, the flatter, the better, and I hope Aptera can engineer a very flat curve. Tim has lots of work to do!
*(1.7C for 44 mWe would be 75kWe)
Kinda scary.
Neat science; thanks Steve.
He's really smart
Thanks Steve and Tim, I would like to understand how the Korean battery supplier fits in and if there is any concern regarding Maxeon as the primary battery supplier with their current issues?
💯 Hopefully covered but don’t see when interviewing Tim but 3-pt series we’re seeing obviously prerecorded.
Isn't Maxeon their solar panel supplier not battery?
@@PandaKnight52 Correct, I missed that (slip-up?) but still related and concerning. More accurately, Maxeon makes the solar cells that Aptera then encapsulates/presses into its several curved solar panels.
Great info Steve, Tim. thanks! It seems to me that the standard charging use (in sunny areas) is going to be with the onboard solar array. What will be the effect on the battery pack of this “trickle charging” and also Level 1- L2 charging at home. Will we be able to comfortably charge the pack to 100%? Or will we be better off charging at home to 80%, and have solar charging capped to say 90%? I still want DC fast charging, but personally I am only expecting to use this capability a few times a year. It will be helpful to know how to optimize the Aptera EV’s charging for the least degradation under normal use.
Daily charge cap of 100% or 80% mostly depends on the battery chemistry (LiPo or NMC, for example). Yes, it will be great to know recommended SoC% & degradation curve for longevity purpose.
Of course with different materials there are different expansion contraction rates of charges of temperature and mechanical charges of stress. . . These are recorded with strain gauge data. . . And acrilic effects. . . On another note
So if the PI batteries are 60-70 days out, we might see PI2 in late September. That’s not too bad of a slippage for the timeline.
I think you’re looking at after the first of the year (1st qtr 2025)
They were saying July August and laughing like there was no way a delay would happen AGAIN
@@SteveBueche1027 - H1 2025 is when production starts. So they have lots of time to get to that point.
@@billsmith5960 H1 2025 must have been referring to the production of the scale model.
@@bobhellman8676 - It’s when they start production. I’ll eat my hat if Aptera goes beyond that.
up to 100kW being possible leaves room for future upgraded battery tech, for example solid state batteries. some chinese phones can already charge at 10C.😊
Exactly how long does it take to make an electric tuctuc.
With rapidly evolving battery technology, and downward price pressure, I hope Aptera does not contractually lock in battery cost and technology.
If they don't lock in on something, then they will be in a constant development phase and not production phase. They are not even in the testing phase right now, so it shows how far they are to actually making a consumer product.
Will there be any active cooling when we do solar recharging and heating due to sitting in the sun for the whole day?
I don't believe it will need active cooling because the battery pack itself is not in the sun and the power going into the pack is not a ton, so heat generation is next to non when solar charging. Tesla's battery can get up to 120F and still pump in 160kw worth of power. So putting in a mear 700 watts even at 125F which I'm sure that battery won't ever get to just sitting outside. Probably would have to be in death valley for those numbers. But Aptera is a genius company maybe they will be able to cut on automatic cooling for 5 minutes to knock the battery temp down using the solar and a little battery.
Negligible heating is incorrect, at 13.5amp per cell at max discharge rate from display data of the beta build, that is over the 10amp rating of the cell, they are going to get hot. Its getting close to 3c discharge rate.
( hoping aoc will calculate the heating since we now know the max current draw).
He seems to miss an important point, the smaller the pack the more the pack heating, there will be higher amp draw per cell ( less cells in parallel), it will get hotter. The smaller the pack the higher the heating rate, its not the same rate for any size pack, he seems to lack some basic understanding of lithium packs.
That might even find the small packs wont be able to handle the same power draw as the larger packs, seems they are still a long way off even the basics of the motor/battery pack.
Smaller pack versions might be power limited due to heating issues.
He says 50kw will be 1C charge rate for the aptera, well that depends on the size of the pack being used, this is not clear information from supposed battery expert.
They are years away from even being close to having a reliable tested system.
A long explanation of extrusion of aluminium, they are going to extrude that large tray that holds the batteries? I would like to see that!
This would have been a great series if released 1st qtr. '23, while the BinC was being tooled, not 18 months later.
Ditto for the motor development with the vendors, cooling system prototyping, wiring harness development, chassis and suspension development, pilot line, etc..
Yeah, that followup to the Beta via a pair of full system mules and all the development that should have been done with them.
Sorry, not sorry, I've been a broken record pointing this out since the BinC release.
1,000's of missing hours.
You care because:
- The development track record is so far behind the curve, it doesn't suggest they will ever see enough funds to cover them in Apturtle mode.
- If the production design goes anything like the development phase, you'll never see this thing at any price you would be willing to pay, if they are to be viable.
And the worst thing: It is highly unlikely it will be a fulled-sorted quality product.
A shame. It could have been.
The turning point was "PI's completed in the first few months of next year" and "crash data by mid-year", because they were nearing the end of the "promise period" and having to transition to the "doing period". They totally blew '23.
Transparency simply shows it's caught up with them.
He said he started in February. Should have been February '23, no?
Just referring to range estimates given by Aptera staff. Since there is no way to corroborate their data, I find myself going through test drive videos looking for data.
This video is rather good one since it shows some good data
ua-cam.com/video/if81LYYWwoY/v-deo.html
Range estimate can be produced using this video.
The display showed 77% full at the start and 73% full at the end.
So 4% of battery capacity got 1.5km ( fairly harsh drive with full throttle often).
That means 1% of battery gets you 375m.
So lets say you drive using 100% of battery capacity, that will get you 375x100=37500m
or 38km. Realistically you cant use all 100% of battery, lets say 10% capacity not useable.
You could go 34km......thats not bad considering it was bad driving style.
Since aptera has been unable to show any real world range tests, it means this is best estimate I can give. I dont know the battery pack on the beta vehicle, if anyone knows its capacity or layout please let me know.