A few corrections and clarifications for this vid here - please have a read as I'll keep this relatively up-to-date with new findings on the subject: gosforthhandyman.com/corrections/ 1000+ comments and counting - thank you so much for taking the time! I've read almost all of them but there's just too many to reply individually. Many good points. A few where folk obviously haven't watched the whole video. Remember I know SQUAT about heat pumps and based my opinions on first hand experiences from folk using the actual systems I talked about - head over to the Community tab to read those replies. Thanks again, interesting subject, keep the comments coming! 👍👍
My strategy, improve insulation dramatically, oversize radiators and install underfloor heating downstairs when refurbishing, this way your gas boiler will operate really happily in its condensing mode with nice low flow temperatures and you've future proofed the transition to a heat pump.
We've had the larger version of that boiler since 2007 (42Cdi combi) Couple of things to watch out for. Where the condensate pipe leaves the house in very cold winter can freeze causing the boiler to throw an "EA" error and refuse to start. Just use a kettle of hot water to unfreeze the pipe if this happens. Second issue is the "Bearing Plate" this is a metal disk (After the fan in the boiler?) with a disk of rubber attached that acts as a "Flappy Valve" type of thing regulating the air into the boiler? where the metal disk touches the rubber should be coated with the lead from a pencil to stop the rubber disk sticking to it otherwise this also will cause the boiler to throw random "EA" errors and refuse to start once more (Ask me how I know..)
This is the first time I have heard someone speak so eloquent and sensible about climate change and associated issues etc…well done. I’d vote for you 👍🇬🇧
Advocating fossil fuel use is far from sensible or sustainable. These high tech 'combi-boilers' are only as efficient as ever possible through use of microprocessor control and won't work without a power supply. Is the exhaust hot? Sure, and that is a thermal loss. Is the hot water supply to showers and hand basins far hotter than need be, and in fact a scalding risk? Well, if so that is risk and needing further use of tempering valves to prevent personal injury... but in any case excessive fuel use for that function.
I'm on the East Coast and live in the open country side. The first thing you learn about living out of town is that when the bad weather hits the first thing to go is the electric supply. We have had to wait up to three days for the power to come back on. On these occasions we depend on our log burner to supply heat, hot water and even heat for cooking. I'm afraid the Government can demand what ever they want but my log burner is staying put. Brilliant video, spot on with the information.
@@macraghnaill3553 Your "gas fire" operates without an electric power supply? It must be very old now, low efficiency rated by modern standards and near burnt out, literally.
@@BTW... my gas fire ignition operates by battery as does my gas cooker. my gas fire can still be bought , gas fires on sale are either powered by battery or piezo ignition
As someone born and living in Sweden, it's fascinating to listen to this. Here everybody and their mother is going heat pump route and it's been going on for 20-30 years. It's air/air, air/water, ground source (and people here drill "energy wells" as in 200 meter deep holes, not dig up their back yard). It's cold here in the winters. Modern heat pumps still work decently down to -30°C. I currently live in a 50-ties house that originally was built with oil boiler heating, then converted to resistive electric heating. We have no gas. I'm now converting it to ground source heat pump. Everybody else on the street had ground source heat pumps installed 15 years ago, but the then-owner didn't go down that route. This is like first time I visited the UK and the hotel advertised one of its unique selling points, that it had double paned windows. At the time, I lived in an apartment built in 1961 that had triple glasing from the get-go. Fascinating how different world views can be.
Borehole GSHPs are good. I have worked on them. I have also worked on Air source heat pumps, and personally I wouldn't go near one unless it's a small new build with good insulation and underfloor heating.
Yes borehole is the way for a heat pump. I stayed in house in Sweden during winter which had the system. Yes triple glazing is probably standard in Sweden. I do wonder how much solar gain is different between double and triple glazing, to reduce the heat during summer months.
Your area of the world is also known for building very well insulated houses. The UK housing stock was mainly built around the idea that it was first cheap to burn coal and then gas for heating, even now our building standards are something of a joke compared to other parts of the world. So sticking on an air-source heat pump to an average home is a big issue, what is way worse is that the homes are designed around lots of airflow, so just sticking in lots of insulation just causes lots of other issues as the airflow is blocked.
To be fair, your weather does provide quite an incentive to push these measures through. Not to say that the building industry in this country doesn't make me want to tear my hair out! As a then architect, 35 yrs ago I was working towards residential new builds being net zero by 2016. Where did that go? A lot of questions the media presumably thinks is too boring to properly probe.
I am a retired energy professional, I went through the process, here are my findings. I live in the Netherlands, climate here is pretty much as you described yours. My house was built in 1980. I did all the retrofitting needed, and installed a Daikin hybrid heat pump to replace the old combi gas boiler, in early 2017. I now save about 25% of overall CO2 emissions (including that at the power plant) and about 15% "fuel" costs, compared to before 2017. What I missed in your video was a look at the possibility of a hybrid heat-pump. - That would lead to a much lower initial investment. - While you get the best of both worlds. That is: the system runs on gas OR electricity OR both, depending on what is most efficient, either financially or with respect to overall CO2 emissions. A heat pump, of any kind, is ONLY the right thing to consider if ALL boxes are checked, either by design or by retrofitting the house. Particularly: - the house needs to be well insulated: roof, floor, walls, windows, what have you. - Furthermore, you need to have the right (Low Temperature) radiators and/or under floor heating. - Basically you will need to arrive at a situation in which you can heat the house "always" with a water temperature of below 50 C or so and most of the time well below that. The problem is that most professionals, that have always only ever worked with gas boilers (here anyway, oil too in UK probably), are not capable of getting everything right, or if they are people are not ready to pay for advice on how to redesign everything. That's where things go often wrong, you ask for a heat-pump and NO fancy expensive comprehensive advice, the response often is: "you want bananas, we give you bananas" and they install a heat pump for you.
Yes exactly this. I'm also from the Netherlands. And our advantage is we have been working with combi boilers for a long time now, and so we are making the next step. Also, next to that hybrid heat pump you can also think about air conditioners. They heat perfectly fine and don't have dependancies on the radiators and such.
Hi there - We have been looking into heat pumps for a while and have weighed everything up but I cannot get the figures to add up at all. I am interested to read your comment on this video and I cannot help reply to it. You have said you save 15% on energy bills per year, so for example if you had a bill of £2000 per year you save £300 . If you replaced you existing system with a heat pump the installation costs is about £10000 - 15000 for everything including insulating the property properly it will only take between 30-50 years until the heat pump has paid for itself.
@@becausesupsussex4568 Insulation is always a good idea, regardless of the heating source. So in that sense, not really fair towards heat pumps. Just like people saying we need solar panels with heat pumps. And if you really do insulation with proper heat pump insulation you should of course save more money, while energy prices are only getting higher. As an alternative you could apply a high quality aircon for heating. It doesnt have to have the power for the coldest winter days, it can just work 70% of the time, the rest can be done by the existing heating source. That way installation is much cheaper. And no dependencies on the type of radiators and so on.
@@becausesupsussex4568 For "older" houses. just insulating is often saving way more than a heat pump could. In my case insulating (ONLY) lowered the power consumption, for heat only, by over 25%. As things are: Heat pumps are, for many, an environmental thing more than a money saver. That 15% was JUST heat pump effect (on top of insulation effect). At least up to very recent, SINCE: at current (early 2022) prices here (Netherlands) the savings are over 50%, for JUST the heat pump effect. Pay back time calculation are way more complex than they seem. Among many other things, it very much depends on the ratio between prices for electricity versus gas (or oil), and on how you expect those to EVOLVE over the live time of said heat pump. The world is in an energy transition. It seems reasonable to expect that over time greener and cheaper electricity will become available and gas/oil prices will go up considerably more than those for electricity. All things considered, I would definitely NOT invest in a new furnace at this point in time. In fact that's what I have been saying for the last 5 years. ALWAYS: - insulate (well) first and foremost. - otherwise a heat pump is bad investment, for several reasons.
The comment on Bananas is apt, and is why there are EU reg's on bananas, you asked for bananas we sent you bananas (small curved yellow things), technically a banana but inedible, we have retrofitted in the past but will not work for people that want corners cut and will not consider the whole solution.
The presenter offers views based on superceded technology and most critically - no actual experience of any ASHP. R290 based systems deliver water at 75*C if you really want it to. The presenter literally says he could not understand the technology or the grants, so rather than find out fitted a combi. Hardly a well reasoned or balanced discussion.
Hi Andy, just wanted to share my opinion on ASHP. We got one 3 years ago (in Ireland) and I would not go back to anything else for love nor money. It has reduced our heating bills drastically (about 40%) and it gives us a nice comfy temp all year round. Also just wanted to point out that AirSource HeatPumps are also used in Scandinavia where temperatures plummet way below ours and they still do the job properly. You just have to make sure of two things: get a good installer and make sure your house doesn't leak any (or little) heat. The fact that they are better for the environment and that they are better for air pollution in your home, are just bonuses.
ps: a good installer will take everything into consideration: if your house is insutlated well enough, if you rads are the right size etc. but all in all, in the long run, it's worth it.
@@felixreali7101 What system were you using before because a balanced flue condensing boiler will see around a 40-60% saving in the UK when compared to a conventional boiler. Generally in Scandinavia the winter weather is a dry cold not wet so the ice build up on the units is less, needing the resistive heating element of the unit to come on less. Not quite sure why you had air pollution in your home though?
I have some family in Sweden, they only heat their house with a ground source heat pump and an air source heat pump and they have no issues. They have had it for 25 years and their house is very well insulated (almost passive House standards). I think that heat pumps are definitely very interesting but are only really appropriate for really well insulated and air sealed houses.
I think that you might be talking about two different things about ground head... one is more like a dwell and the other is putting plumbing all over. The one Richie's Swedish family has is probably the dwell kind. Guessing from Andys hand waving I'd say he is referring to the pipes-all-over-kind.
Heat pumps work in Scandinavian countries because they use quality wood as part of their building private homes, and this make homes warmer than using cheap bricks! Heat pumps will fail in the UK under current housing standards, unless new houses are built to accommodate for heating pumps and you need proper insulation and no air drafts! Otherwise in freezing weathers, heating pumps won't warm the house and therefore homes will use electric heaters which will be costly and that defeats the saving claims!!
In Sweden, there are very few locations is gas in pipes to households, there is also not a lot of usages of gas in tanks. So a gas burner system like used in this video is not an option in most locations in Sweden. In cities most of the heating use district heating. If you are out of a city where it is not available eclectic heating is the main option. So direct electric heating or by using a ground or air heat pump.
looks like to me you made a safe, dry, warm home using modern building science techniques. that should mean not just low maintenance, but also low utility bills. my hats off to you sir!
We installed an ASHP in our previous home and would do it again in our next. It was a 9kw panasonic unit. As I'm from the Netherlands we have similar weather. Last winter was the coldest in many years with temperatures dropping to -15c. The heat pump is not very efficient with those kinds of temperatures, but that doesn't matter. It's all about the average throughout the year. Our house was built in 2015, so fairly good insulation, which is key. 172m2 floor space and it was a corner house. Underfloor heating downstairs and normal radiators upstairs. Normal radiators worked, but lowh2o ones would've been better. The installation together with a 300l hot water tank was 10k, but we got a 2k government grant. We also installed 18 solar panels which covered the electricity of the heat pump and then some... Yearly kwh usage through the heat pump including hot water, was about 2800kwh. Total electricity bill for everything was about 40 euros a month....
Wonderful series and one can only hope that your common sense approach to the environmental future and efficiency reaches vast numbers of people. Well done Mr and Mrs Mac.....yet again,!
Thought I'd add my 2 cents about smart thermostats. We have them and love them. We use different rooms at different times of day so can program each room to be a certain temperature when we want it. E.g. my office to be 20 degrees 9-5.30 Monday to Friday. Bedrooms cooler in the day and warmer in the mornings and evenings. It's not just the energy saving that's great, it's more comfortable also. I think it's like you said, different things work for different people in different properties.
Obviously you are a reasonably well off person to have an ‘office’ at home. There are millions of people who only just make ends meet and could not afford all this new technology, also you have to stay in a property for a long time to get the payback from the cost. I am not against technological advance, rather the other way, but it must be affordable, efficient, silent and proved before we take the leap!
@@petercollins7848 you don't have to be well off to have a office at home. Lost of people working from home now and told they are indefinitely. A 'office' can just be a spare room with a desk in it. I've just had new central heating system as mine was all electric and the cost of having the smart thermostat etc was the same as the ridiculous price we was paying per month on heating the house with electric. Will pay itself off Within a few months.
You have described my problem to a tee. I live in the U.S. Air Source heat pumps work great, how ever, in the U.S we use forced air not hydronics. Secondly inverter technology in the air source heat pump has helped make them way more efficient, Mitsubishi hyper heat puts out 100% of its heat capacity at -15c or 5f. But on the other hand, water is a much better heat transfer medium. You can not only modulate flame, but water temperature as well. I’m in the heating and cooling business, where I live in the U.S we do boiler work as well. Good choice and a good brand. I Just don’t want people to get the wrong idea about heat pumps. Inverter Heat Pumps are very quiet, and is efficient, the conventional heat pumps are only work in mild climates where temperatures don’t go lower then 4-5C or 40F. But conventional heat pumps are loud. Again my only experience is with forced air heat pumps.
Too many people are likely to only listen to anecdotal evidence from their echo chambers online. The fact that there are numerous different types of heat pumps with varying efficiency suitability for different climates means that they are a much more suitable option that this video would lead you to believe.
@@MrManningata Well, there's also the fact different countries employ different standards and not everyone is using the same technology or has the same options to choose from... So YMMV, in some aspects like windows some European countries are way ahead but in others they're behind, for example... So what he stated is likely true for his situation and the options available to him locally. Other comments from the UK seem to indicate this to be the case... The UK is not a great market for Mini-Splits. So they may not have access to the better and more advance units that can handle pretty cold temperatures, etc. While it's also a matter of building standards as improper application of any technology can give undesirable results and it did take a few decades for many of the advance building technology today to be developed that we shouldn't forget that it may not be available yet to everyone, and older standards can take a long time to change...
@@ZeoCyberG I remember in a boiler class learning that the UK sells more boilers in a year then all of the United States. I hope my original comment wasn’t taken the wrong way. At least here in the US we seem to be a little behind. The better boilers on the market all seem to come from Europe, Bosch/Buderus, Viessmann and the best oil burner I ever worked on again is from Europe, Riello. I feel like this was a well done video explaining his decision making process and what led him to his decision. I also feel that when natural gas is available and a boiler system is already in the house, a good high efficiency boiler is a great way to go. My first comment was made for the people who live areas who have a lot of forced air systems who believe heat pumps are not good. Ed Manning and you are totally correct as well as this video, take your climate you live in, the technology that is available to you, and your price range to make a well informed decision.
@@MrManningata we do have boilers here in the US but mostly in the North East of the country, we mostly get our hot water from stand alone water heaters. Most common are 40 - 50 gallon or 151.4 - 189.3 liter tank type natural gas, propane, or electric. We do have wall hung water heaters just to do hot water and they are gaining popularity here. We also have heat pump water heaters with electric element back up (tank type) which is also gaining popularity. Believe it or not, in old home renovations here in the US, people are a lot of times removing boiler systems in favor of forced air so they can have cooling as well. It’s always fascinating to me to see how other parts of the world do things, European boiler technology in my opinion is the best, then you have the mini split systems coming out of Asia that are absolutely incredible as well.
The one short coming with a on-demand heater is the distance of the furthest sink/shower/bath from the boiler. Especially in a drought prone area like California (obviously no where in the UK). The water waste is excessive unless you add a re-circulation pump, like a Chillipepper, which allows you to pre-circulate the hot water to a distance close to the distant shower/bath to reduce the waste water expelled while you are waiting to be able to step into a warm shower.
well done, Andy Mac! another hot topic from your channel. we also chose to install an efficient gas/combi boiler in our 1910 farmhouse renovation. after months of baffling research (government incentives are equally paradoxical and fickle here in germany) it truly was the most sensible solution for our house and our particular situation. the quotes for 'alternative' heating solutions ranged from 25 k to 65 k euro, possibly somehow including those elusive incentives, but definitely not including in-house pipe and radiator installation, which was needed regardless. the 28 kw gas boiler install was about 3 k euro, and keeps two adults and four dogs in 350 m2 of space plenty warm. the winters here are generally more extreme than you depict in your region, but we have made a real effort to insulate thoroughly throughout the build, and now in our fourth year (yes, still building full time) we see the benefits of this and have never regretted the decision to go with gas. your channel is excellent. not only do you tackle pertinent topics and challenging projects for a your active, hands-on viewers, but you manage to document and deliver them consistently with style and humor. truly wunderbar. thank you for all of that, and for continuing to share with us this renovation. I have been doing this same work full time on our property for years now and still have the need to watch you get dirty. how delightfully insane. dig on.
Good thought process! I live in central Canada with winter to summer temps nearing an 80 degree swing! It was up to 37 deg C this summer and it can go as cold as -40 deg C in the winter. I have two heat pumps, one as an air conditioner and adjunct heat in the early winter/late spring. The other is in the workshop with the same use. Air it air heat pump will not help us in the winter. The rest of the time we only have an electric furnace in the house and electric boiler in the shop with in-floor heating.
Your better makes of boiler (Wooster Bosch, Vallent etc) are made to be able to convert to Hydrogen! Wood burning stoves are the next to be blacklisted, but there seems little reason for it if you have an A rated one! Ours was the best investment I have made in out house. The only drawback is that once you light it you end up dribbling and watching the faeries all night! Also there is a battle between the cats and the dog for pole position in front of it! One extra thing that rarely gets mentioned is the chimney. We had a stainless flue put in yet even so when we go to bed the upstairs chimney wall is nice and warm!
Shh don't tell to many people, let them get rip off by the heating engineers.. They don't tell anyone about conversion kits by boiler makers for about 100..the heat pumps people will not be be happy
A couple years ago my parents switched over to solar panels and ASHP from oil and it works great. It is much quieter than their previous oil heating system, you can't even really hear it at all. (they have a Mistubishi heat pump). Their house is so warm now, it's fab, and works just as well in the really cold months. They did need to change some radiators to bigger ones, but that wasn't a big deal for them.
Thanks for your assessment on heating choice Andy, I'm glad we came to same conclusion. I have a near Identical situation as you, with the house having previously had Eco 7 heating, the only difference I have is a log burner with a back boiler, so this contributes to central heating via heat exchanger when in use.
Hi from Dublin, we've just moved into a 1949 end-of-terrace (pretty much a semi-d) house and I'm glued to this project. We've had two quotes for complete new central-heating and combi-boiler systems, to replace an oil-fired system. 8 radiators, combi-boiler and installation was €9400 and €11300. We'll get through winter with the oil until we figure out what's best.
Insulation is key whatever you do to be efficient and . I double glazed the entire apartment, added interior insulation on all exterior walls and had thermally efficient exterior blinds for all windows - then I added the ASHP!
@@michaelwilliams3648 Shutters that are lowered over the outside of the window either at night or when the sun is very hot in the day. Made of aluminium slats with an insulating foam sandwiched within. Reduces noise a little as well.
It's interesting to hear (and learn) about the differences in heating/cooling technologies between the UK and here in Australia. I remember when i moved into a flat that had an "instantaneous gas" hot water system (boiler) - what a revelation over stored hot water. They're brilliant! We don't need central heating in my city (Brisbane, sub-tropical) but they do use it down south in Melbourne & Hobart, and I know that "combi-boilers" are very popular down there. Great video Andy, thank you.
I lived in Gaythorne and absolutely roasted on Xmas day when I lived down under, only had a fan in the bedroom. Remember one real cold day on the building site, hoodies on and wrapped up it was freezing must have been a freak weather bomb ha
I live in a country where it gets to -20 in winter, and my air source heat pump worked fine. However you need underfloor heating and triple glazing. I also had a plant room with a large heat storage collector tank. But yes they are noisy.
No underflloor needed . You need to not put you construction floor direct on cold ground and then put your finisched floor on that one. Isolation is the key.i have isolation under Both. No need for under floor heating . Also large radiators !!
No underflloor needed . You need to not put you construction floor direct on cold ground and then put your finisched floor on that one. Isolation is the key.i have isolation under Both. No need for under floor heating . Also large radiators !!
Great timing this - our old gas boiler is coming to the end of its life and this has pretty much confirmed my thinking about just getting it replaced with an up to date condensing gas boiler (5 bed 1970’s detached house)
I'd perhaps seek out other sources of information about heat pumps. I'm afraid he's not well informed and those comments he read out were incredibly inaccurate. Also quotes energy use for a solid stone built 7 bed farm house for comparisons with avg houses.
Andy, that was actually a very thoughtful discussion on being environmentally sensitive without being stupid (can I use that word anymore?). Well done video. Also, we use lots of spray foam here in western Canada, with SEVERE weather extremes, with no downsides to speak of (if it's properly installed). Just my thoughts. Cheers.
From what I have heard they are shite. Here is the UK our houses are not that well insulated so they will not be very efficient. New builds may be a different matter but the fans become noisy for neighbours in built up areas.
I’m renovating my 3 Bed 1940s home and came to exactly the same conclusion when looking to replace the old system boiler. Went with a 36kw combi boiler, new radiators with thermostatic valves and the shower pressure is great, even got rid of the old pump. Still need to insulate below the ground floor. Heat pumps work great in well insulated, air tight houses but not on older properties. My parents are building a passive house & will be installing a heat pump which will work great for them.
Chartered mechanical engineer and energy specialist here - not to be rude, but the myths and misunderstandings of these systems as presented in this video is exactly why uptake in the UK is so poor while the vast majority of other countries in Europe / North America (with much more extreme weather) are proceeding with proper heat electrification. Trust me, if an ASHP or GSHP system can work in Michigan, it can work in Newcastle! To be fair, these systems are very different to wet / rad based fossil fuel boiler systems, and therefore our conventional knowledge of combustion systems does not typically apply. Yes, you must install larger radiators to kick out the appropriate heat (if using a wet system), but this has nothing to do with efficiency. ASHPs are generally 3-4x more efficient than gas boilers, irrespective of how modern they are (bar some caveats around extreme temps). If used correctly, ASHPs in UK weather will year-on-year always be cheaper to run. In truth, insulation is not even an absolute necessity, but will make a home cheaper to run just the same as if you were running on gas so long as radiator sizing / heat inputs are properly addressed. Don't forget, as well, that wet systems (using radiators) are only one potential solution. Air-to-air heat pumps using cassettes are also just as viable and used worldwide. Noise issues are a fair consideration, but heat pumps are getting quieter and quieter by the year. Electrification of heat is not going away, and the UK should embrace it. Hydrogen reforming may and combustion are certainly discussed, but will never have the same appeal as a global technology like heat pumps that already has mass adoption. I am certain that a heat-pump solution would have outperformed the chosen modern gas system in running costs and potentially performance if properly designed and specified. However, the concerns around capital cost of installation are valid, and RHI / other incentives are only getting more and more sparse. Given the home didn't have a wet system to begin with, I can almost be certain in saying the specification of a multi-split reversible air-to-air heat pump with wall mounted cassettes (potentially supplemented by some level of insulation, although not necessarily) would have allowed for a far more efficient, not to mention low carbon solution with the ability so easily integrate things like smart zoning and controls and potential comfort cooling in hot summers which will only become more and more common. And because there would be no plumbing necessary, it may have even come out as cheaper to install!
Thanks for your comment, saved me from some of the despair I felt after watching the nonsense in this video. I wonder how many commercial/public buildings this guy has been in over the last few decades which have been kept perfectly warm by the heat pumps he says don't work as far north as, er, Newcastle. Hardly the arctic circle. However, I do have concerns around current levels of expertise and support for domestic systems. We have an established supply chain for commercial jobs but how many of those companies could be bothered with dealing with the chaotic retrofit market? The current domestic heating system supply chain (esp retrofit) with plumbers shoving in oversized boilers with zero real design or commissioning could be pretty disastrous for heat pumps - perhaps the reason for some of the negative feedback to date.
Air source heat pumps when used with ducted or mini-split forced air systems are very efficient even in our extreme winters in Minnesota. It must be paired with good insulation and windows. Our heat pump uses around 1.5 kW per hour to run. In 20 degree weather, it runs about 5 hours per day to maintain us at 68 degrees, using around 8 kWh per day. Our old electric heat system used a 10 kW heater, so you can see how much lower our energy bills are with an ASHP.
and any body that argues with someone who buys Bosch well they are showing how much of a rear end they truly are. great choice of product, top of the line.
Hi, Thank you for your honest approach to this issue. Indeed, we are being desitled on all sides, not only by the media, but also by firms, the state, authority, etc. Thank you for your honest approach to this hack to finally put the state and the self-employed in their naked but. I love the way you think Keep it safe, it is not over yet. Willy from Belgiumnk 😷😷😷
At home here in Manchester, 4 bed 2008 detached with an unvented system, fairly well insulated to UK standards, extra insulation in loft + fully boarded. The result has been considerably lower bills than people I know. From April-October, as the house doesn't seem to drop below 20C heating doesn't come on. During a time, 2008-2012, we had the heating on demand the whole day and it was maybe 20% dearer in winter months than now if that - amazing considering those we particularly colder winters. Im typing this on 5th November and heating only just started in the last 2 weeks - outside temp has dropped to 2-5C in the morning. We definitely would put another jumper on, but rarely we think of needing to do that. When I used to work from home on my own and thought it was a waste of energy to put the CH on just for me during the day, then jumper on it went. Would I think this house is ready for any of those heating options? No. In nordic countries, where they bore hole GSHS the ground floor has 50cm insulation, walls 25cm and triple glazing. I'd sooner get solar panels with a battery. If I could substantially insulate the house further somehow, then maybe consider bore hole GSHS. Otherwise it would be a huge system expense plus £10 a day during winter for electricity. Financially-wise, there systems combined would need a 25 year to pay for themselves, not including cost of yearly maintenance. In 25 years time, it probably would be ready to be replaced... so, in all, atm I can't see it as a financial decision. Would be ecological, but the systems are not suited to here at this point in my eyes.
Just a few thoughts on this thorny subject: 1) Government grants: There were two main grants - the green homes grant which provided up to £5000/£10000 for 2/3rds of the install cost upfront. This got cancelled in March without notice (and was stupidly complicated for what it was). There are rumours it will get a replacement soon. And the RHI (Renewable Heat Incentive) which provides pay back over a period of 7 years for installing a range of items and is still open. You could claim both - but the upfront green homes grant would have been deducted from the RHI payments due, so you wouldn't have been able to benefit twice. 2) A central heating system needs designing as a whole system (i.e. the heat producing element, the heat emitters and the pipework connect them). Most people have got lazy as oil boilers & gas boilers worked on the same hot water temperature so radiator sizes were interchangeable so they just follow standard sizes. Heat pumps work more efficiently at lower temperatures, so you need bigger heat emitters to really benefit. Most ASHP problems are because the systems were badly designed (or missold) and users badly informed on how to use them. You can make an ASHP work in any property provided you design the whole system correctly. 3) But having said that, you can't beat the economics of gas if you're on the gas grid. Even with government grants on ASHPs, you can't beat mains gas. 3a) And having said that, you will struggle to beat simply using the money to buy more insulation (fabric first approach). Spending that £60k on insulation would have given you much bigger benefit than spending it all on a funky GSHP - even with keeping the old oil boiler. 4) Don't hold out for hydrogen. Nice on paper - but swapping the grid over in a town from natural gas to hydrogen is going to be almost logistically impossible. Synthetic natural gas is a more likely contender to going carbon neutral (at least for the next 20-30years) - purely because the retrofit is so much easier. 5) And having said that - you will never beat the efficiency (and carbon advantage) of an ASHP/GSHP because they use energy to extract a larger amount of heat from the environment. A gas boiler burning 1kwh at 90%+ will always be beaten by gas power station burning 1kwh at 90%+ that is powering an ASHP extracting 3-4kwh from the environment. But don't confuse efficiency with running costs.
Great post. Adding local PV assistance to the energy supply would further strengthen the point made under 5 as you'd be avoiding grid loss on the power used to run the A/GSHP.
You have pointed out everything that we try to educate customers on with every install. Sadly some of them are green washed into thinking ASHP is the best thing going and that it will save them regardless of the rest of the system even if you take them through all the manufacturers literature and the calculations. We fit 8 ashp last year compared to 6x that in gas systems. The 8 we fitted were all country homes, some units for swimming pools and some for home heating/hot water storage but all were full renovations so all the insulation pipe work, UFH etc could be done. All will be on par/cheaper to run on average than Nat Gas. But try telling people that are used to 60-80c temps on radiators that running at 50 or below will be more efficient. I don't know why but with UFH they get it and it makes sense, but you put a k3 in with low flow temps and quite often you'll get "but I feel cold". You can educate people but you can't change their mindset/habits over night. The grants also do not cover the redecorating afterwards which would be needed to get to micro bore pips and replace it etc unless people wanted pipework on surfaces but not taking up floors and replacing pipework was often the first thing customers would not want doing regardless of the warnings. Now we just refuse to do fit ASHP to homes where customers are unwilling to upgrade the necessary parts of the installation. All it does is tarnish our reputation as installers and the technology going forward. Yes we don't tend to fit them north of Cardiff for a few reasons which has changed over time, originally many of the units we'd fit were fine in Scandinavia and Germany where the installer courses took place but they had "dry winters" but when it came to fitting those same units in the UK the rainfall we had led to iceing up and the resistive heaters coming in to defrost the units, increasing winter bills instead of decreasing.
I am old enough to remember when we swapped the UK gas grid from coal gas (which was over 50% hydrogen) to natural gas. Yes, it was a huge task, and yes, it was done. Going back the other way would be possible, but for the capacity restraints of a less energy dense gas.
@@iainathairydog I was informed that retro fitting into a 1960s house would mean that I would not only spend the RHI but should look to add the equivalent in additional running costs
23 minutes spray foam insulation. We just had vaguely similar thing with our GRP flat roofs - the online insurance questionnaires don't have them in the roof type pick list. Would have had to pay extra to specialist insurer. Went back to a company we used in past and spoke to a real person who could think - she gave lower quote than reason we had left them. A lot of very lazy, simplistic, non-thinking assessment systems in this country
Andy, I must say this have been a great review of your decision regarding home heating. Thanks for the effort you put into this video it certainly provides people with a more balanced view of options, in comparison to governments and energy companies. Cheers pal. 👍
Agree wit you about Eon. Signed up two years ago specifically because I did not have to have a smart meter. Ended up with numerous phone calls and text messages saying my contract said I had to have one. They contacted me about 25 times saying this. Each time I asked them to show me the paragraph which said I had to. They could not. Basically trying to con and bully people.
Npower were awful to deal with, either not charging the right amounts or not issuing bills at all, or issuing bills after the account was settled and closed. I see nothing has changed since e.on swallowed them up
That's not just E-on unfortunately it's most energy companies. They're mandated by the government to get people onto smart meters and actually subject to charges (fines) if they don't get customers to switch over. It's part of the governments sign up to to carbon neutral by 2050, knowing that customers have the right to refuse but not many customers know they can.
Very interesting vid Andy. Ive just come across it by chance. I worked as an engineer in a frozen food manufacturer and certainly understand refrigeration. People are being totally misinformed when they are told that heat is extracted from glycol in the underground pipes as if by magic. This liquid is used in the evaporator half of the system to exchange heat from the gasses in this section of the system. The AIR source heat system blows ambient air over the evap coils instead. If this air is moist it will form ice on the coils and the bloody thing will sit there in a defrost mode until its ready to start again 🙄. You are totally spot on with the poor amount of actual heat that comes off the condenser ( Heating) side of the system. Your analogy regarding diesel cars is a fine example of government people spouting BS and expecting people to eat it.
Good to hear someone talking sense for a change. We’ve just had a new Combi boiler fitted - our first ever and getting rid of tanks, pumps etc has freed up space and enabled us to move the boiler out of the (now newly fitted) kitchen. It’s also amazingly efficient. We have two diesel cars which are so much more efficient than our old petrol ones and as fumes are controlled, I don’t see the problem. How is electricity generated? Not all wind and water or nuclear, so using fossil fuels perhaps? Neither can I ever see there being enough charging outlets for a country full of electric cars!!! Oh well. Once it starts affecting the rich, things will change again.
Very interesting, Andy. I have foam loft insulation and a combi boiler so you have set my mind at rest. Very few people can sit and chat with no notes and pass on technical information in a way that even I can understand it 🌞
I agree there is a lack of knowledge around thermostats but we do also have a real problem with a lack of ventilation in well insulated properties in this country. I wonder how often those open windows are because of thermostat illiteracy causing overheating houses and how many are people instinctively thinking their house is getting a bit “stuffy” which might actually be a build up of humidity and CO2.
CO2 ? Not with a flue type heater, unless seriously faulty... and in any case that would be CO (carbon monoxide). Not to say these gas and combustion heaters don't create CO2 and H2O emissions.
The CO2 I am referring to isn’t from heaters. CO2 builds up quickly from people in the building breathing it out without any ventilation to let in fresh air.
Thanks for this. Clearly you have your opinion AND you have left space for others. I am commenting from Gabriola Island in BC Canada. We are a moderate climate with a week to 10 days of below 0 and a few more days of below 5 in an average winter. I live by the water. I put a Fujitsu high efficiency heat pump in 7 years ago and I am very very pleased. One 12,000 BTU unit (Air to Air) heats my 2 br 1200 sq ft house. On cold days I do use my oil fired furnace to supplement but that would just be for 15 minutes at a time maybe 3 to 4 times a day. Heating bills are about 1/3 of what they used to be. On my island community we have a co-op that gets these units wholesale and provides them to residents at cost plus a donation to their charity which would translate to about 75 or 80 GBP. They have installed many many hundreds of these on our small island and the electric utility can notice the reduction in electrical demand. I do agree however that lots of contractors just add the government subsidy onto their installation costs so it stays very expensive for many.
My home is a wimpy no fines (concrete) semi-detached . The purchase price was cheap but the insulation was non-existent so started from scratch. So i have installed 1, spray foam loft insulation, 2 under floor insulation, 3 triple glazing, 4 external insulation ( via green homes grant scheme) 5 air source heat pump (using the renewable homes incentive) including all new radiators 6 Solar panels 3.6kwh installed on garage roof and 4kwh battery storage. 7 Hive smart thermostat . You may say this an extreme example and i would agree but i believe every home in the UK needs a professional assessment and generous government incentives provided to the least efficient homes .People would not undertake a project like this if it wasn't there" forever" home. My energy bills have reduced by 95% but the money saved goes towards the finance i have taken out. I hope to benefit from the reduced running costs in years to come.
As an engineer what you've done is our normal recommendation for the best chance at cost saving or parity with gas when having a heat pump installed. Sadly many people can't get the finance or grants to cover it and much of the existing housing stock in the UK needs upgrading be it private or council owned including new builds built in the last 10 years with microbore pipework.
Just another observation regarding the noise. My ashp is much quieter than the exhaust steam/gases from my neighbours gas boiler. Also the video from “ My Home Farm “ are very accurate. As my house needed to be re rendered after the external insulation all my projects had to be done in a strict order . This meant that the ashp was fitted before the insulation was fitted . That 2 month period my electricity bill was truly eye watering . I think ashp could work for many people but the government needs to substantially increase the incentives available.
@@katabrontes Just over £30k…….( £15k in government grants) Gulp . If you are thinking of ashp you need to do this before any insulation project because the amount of grant you get depends on the current level of insulation in the house
Many thanks for that most informative and balanced video. We have a combi boiler that replaced the previous combi boiler about 8 years ago and we use LPG as we are in a rural property. During the warmer months, as the boiler is only having to heat water for showers and washing up, we use very little gas. However, we do use much more once the heating kicks in but we go for an extra layer of clothing before we turn the thermostat up. And yes, we have a diesel car, purchased when they were rated at zero for road tax and the government was saying 'buy diesel'. It does about 65mpg, far better than the hybrid we test drove the other day! Your comments on heat sourced air pumps do demonstrate that not enough though has been given to this issue by the government. Thanks again.
Hey Andy Mac! More interesting content. Mrs. Mac's palace is coming along nicely. I suspect your ongoing efforts will keep you in her good graces for some time to come. Both of ya keep doin' you! Stay healthy, keep playing.
My personal thoughts on any modern home conditioning system is that we are stuck with the commonly installed stuff. Every time I watch the excellent Matt Resinger show the new stuff all I can think of is that I need to be building a 500k plus home or it’s out of reach.
Absolutely spot on, Andy! The proper way forward is to insulate and make airtight the old leaky properties, and to update existing kit - my soon to be scrapped boiler was installed in 1974!! Using much less gas is a better answer than switching wholesale to an expensive and unreliable system - more research and development is needed, but the politicians need a 'quick fix' - which always turns out to be neither quick, nor a 'fix'!
My neighbor and my niece both installed an air source heat pump in their new builds - hot air rather than hot water systems. Both seem happy with them, but we had a relatively mild winter here in New England, the neighbor's house is less than 500 square feet, and my niece's digs are a new second floor atop her mother's oil-furnace house. Neither use them for hot water. So their heat pumps didn't have to work very hard. A nearby library installed a ground-source heat pump about ten years ago, and the complex plumbing has required expensive repairs. When completed, you'll have a relatively large house and a need for a dependable supply of hot water. You have natural gas available, your boiler was not expensive to install, and if it ever needs repair the parts are readily available. Most of all, the convoluted process for obtaining a government rebate on a heat pump wasn't worth the time and aggravation. While I think heat pumps may eventually become standard equipment, that day has not yet arrived.
@@jeremybarker7577 That they are! I was surprised that in the past couple of years air-sourced heat pumps are being marketed here with some success. I expect you'd still need some backup (electric resistance or propane heater) when the temp gets close to 0 degrees F.
A lot of good info in this 👍🏻 Completely agree about the furniture, and let's be honest it's not even really wood so can't even be used for other purposes when it's beyond repair.
Borehole ground source system (doesn't seem to be discussed in video here) should work better than a near underground pipe system, of course there would need to be some sort of drill rig that could get in behind a house. Bunging in a heat pump without reworking the way heat is radiated into the house is really a bad idea, the whole thing needs to be re-reviewed/re-worked.
Many thanks for an excellent video. I have been wrestling with the same issues and have decided to go with a gas boiler for central heating. I live in Santiago, Chile so will be installing also into the heating circuit a solar water heater, so this will preheat the water before it goes to the boiler and reduce gas consumption (variable heat boiler needed). Not sure combi boilers are available here. The heating system is with radiators and with a heat pump I could not get the water temperatures I needed, without swapping out all of the radiators.
What you said about sustainability and climate change is absolutely spot on. I think far too often the latest in thing is seen as the silver bullet when it's anything but. Diesel cars and Electric cars, is something that absolutely confuses me because there is actually a study from 2020 that confirms Diesel cars are more environmentally friendly than any other vehicle type. In terms of sustainability of houses, something as simple as switching light bulbs to LED can make a huge difference to energy consumption, yet I imagine there are plenty of houses still using the old style bulbs. You're absolutely spot on when you say it's about building a system of sustainability as opposed to looking for a magic fix everything solution.
Ageed, but then look at the light fittings. Do they 'take' the new 'bulbs'? Many do, but several of mine are dark at the bayonet and the illumination is at the other end and potentially protruding beyond the shade. Change the fittings! Yes several £1000 to the manufacturers and a whole lot more land fill. Green issues, are complex, like most problems and one size does not fit all.
The bigger factor in switching to a non combustion setup is the air quality, not the energy efficiency. Especially now that you have greatly reduced the amount of air leaks in the house, not bringing in things that lower the air quality is much more important. With an old leaky house this didn't matter. But we have run countless home chemistry experiments that prove how bad burning natural gas in an air tight house is for you.
I suppose there must be some tiny proportion of the gas which fails to combust, and that leaks into the sealed home along with the combustion products?
My prior home had a heat pump (fan forced ducting). It kept the home plenty warm - except during winter power outages. Also, in the winter the 5Kw resistance supplement would kick in, skyrocketing the electric bill. Current house uses gas for heating, electric for cooling. The gas is much cheaper for heating, and I can connect the system to a small generator if the power is out. Our state is wanting to push electric conversion. I’ll resist until forced to. Good luck and great work!
I retro fitted underfloor heating, upstairs and down, in my 1970s home back in 2016 and this included Cavity wall, 15mm floor insulation, 75mm between all the joists in the 1st floor and 300mm in the loft space, we spent a considerable amount of time investigating ASHP technology as they are more suited to under floor but eventually came to the conclusion the cost was the major factor against it and will never be replacement for gas boilers, Most houses in this country will never be suitable for them due to the level of insulation required, as you have pointed out unless you are going to do a full renovation with a view to upgrading all your insulation along with all new bigger radiators or under floor you will struggle to get the ASHP to work efficiently enough, if you replacing oil and have no gas then yes but anyone on mains gas will defiantly not see any benefit and when you factor in the costs, even with government grants, it's a huge investment to rip out and replace something that's already doing the job
I came to the same conclusion to avoid ashp's to replace gas boilers when renovating our property. Tbh your video is the best i've seen on the internet discussing them, would have helped bigtime when I was researching.
I love the guy too but the RHI isn't all that difficult to work out. In fact if he had had a heating engineer out (heat pump trained) they would have explained it to them done a heating calculation for the house to see how well it would work. He's put in so much work on insulation that I'm confident it would work fine. It would mean having it on a low level all the time in the winter, used in a very different way to blast on blast off. But these things are used widely in much colder places than Newcastle and work just fine. And as Andy says thicker radiators. Gas boilers emit twice as much greenhouse gases as power stations in the UK and 8x the amount of N02 too (linked to air pollution deaths, cancers lung, heart and vascular disease Inc. Strokes / dementia - you don't want this stuff being pumped out of your house where you, your kids and neighbours breathe it in.
As someone that has always steered clear of heat pumps over the years, I decided to give a modern 'split' 3.5kw heat pump a go for one of my areas. These blow the air around rather than use conventional radiators. It certainly seems to do the business from what I can tell, was a reasonable DIY fit and cost £650.00. Outside temperature is 21C at the moment and on heat, it brings the temperature up very fast as one would expect, but on cold, which is probably a better test at these temperatures, it works well too, so I am holding out reasonable hopes for winter running. 1:3.5 efficiency and a maximum 1kW input. Still consider many properties in the UK are not suited for full installs and most installers don't have the knowledge to properly assess system requirements but as to the efficiency and performance of modern air source heat pumps, I might just have to start rethinking my stand on them. by the way, spray foam insulation I have seen all sort of issues with over the years with roof's. Foam generally cracks away, moisture gets above it and rots battens and galvanised nails. Depends on the climate it's in but UK has one of the worst moist climates when rot can occur.
Curious how these are doing for heating, now the weather is cooler? Interested as would love them for main bedroom and living area so we could also cool in the summer.
I was recommended the only way I could heat my house (large detached victorian property, solid walls, etc) with an ASHP was to have a hybrid oil model, the quote (before RHI repayments) along with some other plumbing works I wanted was £24k, .. £1k of that was just radiators. Also, "in the winter it will almost certainly be running entirely off of oil", it couldn't do both at the same time. I asked for a quote for a new external oil boiler with the same plumbing works above minus radiators (they were only needed just for RHI) and it came in under £9k. I think max RHI repayments was £10k repaid over numerous years. The maths just didn't work out sadly. So oil boiler it is.
@@TheFarmingEngineerUK Only a month or so ago. It was a large vicarage that was knocked through into the neighbouring house to make one big very cold one. The incoming boiler (26kwh) supports bio-fuel although that still appears to be in trials.
On the car note, I remember seeing an article in I think the Telegraph about this. Said "the greenest car is the one already in your garage". People buying new cars because they're more green fail to account for the manufacturing and material footprint.
Exactly, but that doesn’t fit with capitalism. Electric cars are highly polluting to manufacture and are going to run into problems with battery replacement which is the most polluting part. Hydrogen is the way forward, made by off shore wind farm’s.
We’ve had air source for almost a year now and it works fine, last winter it got pretty cold here in the south east we had large amounts of snow on the ground for a couple weeks and some savagely cold nights and it dealt with it no problems. Only issue is it can seem a bit loud at times but nothing dreadful, just be mindful of where the outside unit is installed.
Here in New York State we have a company called "Dandelion" that installs "geothermal" systems, I assume this is what they call "ground source" in the UK. Dandelion identified NY as the ideal location for a bunch of reasons... cost of heating, climate, income... not sure all the reasons. They streamlined the process and they drill a vertical loop instead going out horizontally, so it can be installed fairly easily even in small yards. they have a smaller custom drilling rig that is more compact than typical, I believe they use 10 foot [2.5 Meter] sections instead of typical [~30' lengths] You can either pay total cost upfront or essentially rent the system while paying less than your old system, people are typically replacing oil fired furnaces with these. I've seen many references to Hydronic radiator systems connected to these systems in the UK, but the Dandelion system only works with forced air systems. Most oil fired systems in this area, NE USA, use radiators... although Canadians seem to have more forced air. They seem to make much more sense than Air source systems, because the ground temp is in your favor based on the season. In summer Ground/Geo can easily give extra heat to 55f/12c ground temp vs 85f/30c air, and in winter we can be at below 32f/0c for weeks at a time, and typically have one week of 15f highs at which point the ground source is about 40f warmer. In the US people in moderate climates, esp. where they might not have a full heating system use what we call a "heat pump", and I would assume that is an air source system. They are usually a mini split, outside compressor heat exchanger with interior wall mounted air handler. Heating is usually an upgraded model from cooling only, but seems to now be the norm. It was widely thought that heating was only practical in moderately cool months, but many new systems claim to work down to very cold temps. We have an Oil fired radiator system, with a mini split in 3 rooms. And we use heat pump option before start using whole house heating, or if we will be in room for a short time. It does put out heat in very cold weather, but it seems to be working very hard and there is a lot of hissing and spiting as the coolant moves through the lines. Also, I have not seen a whole house air source heating system in the US. Probably the most popular system upgrade here is what you just installed, gas fired on demand hydronic system.
Very interesting discussion on how things are different across the pond. It seems like it may be little easier for you guys to switch over to heat pumps, due to the way you heat your homes. Also having a big 'yard' helps with more space for a collector for geothermal. Here in the UK our 'gardens' are mostly tiny, and many new homes don't have them at all!
What an excellent video! A pragmatic discussion of all options, and very useful for others with period properties who may be weighing up their options. It may be, of course, that combi boilers will keep going in the future by using hydrogen, if the experiments in the North East go well. (Of course, the old town gas, made from coal, was around 50% hydrogen, so it’s not such a new concept.)
@@SteveHit1 That's true, however, as you say it's 50% H2 and that would eliminate ~50% emissions compared to pure nat gas. Perhaps we should produce H2 via electrolysis and mix that into nat gas...
@@JohnnyMotel99 I agree totally with your suggestion for addition of H2 to natural gas. As you say, it would result in a massive reduction in emissions, with only minimal effort - especially in comparison with heat pumps.
@@SteveHit1 This adding H2 to Nat gas is actually a thing. It’s been proposed to uk government that 20% H2 could be added to our gas network and save millions of tons of CO2. That could be the limit before burners needed alterations, but maybe not.
Here in The Great Industrial Northeast we measure winter in months and summer in weeks. Winters can be brutal with temps going down as low as -20°F and wind chills of -45°F, although that is not common. Summers can go into the high 90's F, although we can usually count the fingers on our hands the number of days over 90°F and some summers have none. And, our weather is prone to extremes. One winter may see a few inches of snow and the next, ground is covered in feet of snow although the trend lately has been milder winters. And it may be 82°F one day and the next 54°F. So, one thing around here is the weather is not boring!
Generally agreed with your comments about heating and driving but I think you neglected the real drivers for change which are that gas supplies are declining or coming from increasingly unreliable sources, same for petrol. Also the problem with diesel is not the efficiency but the air pollution. Great channel, thanks for sharing.
With respect for your direct experience, much of what you say at 11:00 regarding heating systems is not based on much and rubbish. Here in the NE US where we touch against Canada, we use “cold climate” design air-to-air heat pumps that provide good capacity right down to -15F (-26C ). The experience in poorly insulated houses is that an existing fossil fuel system is a good back up for about 100 HOURS per year, usually overnights only and warms up in the morning. In well insulated houses no FF back up is used successfully. I installed an air-to-water heat pump with buffer tank and radiant floor as primary distribution inside. Owner immediately had a nice warm experience and continuous operation of this heat pump through the next week when low temps hit -28 C - no issues.
I've generally had no problems with EON and were with them for some time, I had more issues with British Gas customer service. But I guess everyone will have different experiences
Had my ashp now into my 3rd year and have found it so quite I have to go outside to stand in front of it when it's on just to feel the air it puts out. As for the heating system keep the thermostat at 18c and it's fine. I had a combi before I changed and found that if it broke down you got no hot water or heating with the ashp you have a immersion on the tank so at least you can have hot water. So I for one are happy with my choice , as for the grants I get 4 payments a year from the government which in turn pays just about half my energy costs admittedly you only get this for 7 years and by then they probably will some other insensitive, keep up with your video I find them informative
Smart TRVs are really great if you want different schedules in different rooms of your house or your main thermostat is not in the coldest part of your house. We had a poorly insulated bathroom extension and a smart TRV was great for keeping that room heating while the rest of the house was at the right temperature.
Totally agree with all you've said re Combis and Wood burning stoves (& politics). We have identical boiler and very happy with the economics, efficiency and the quietness! Our WBS heats an 8 x 4 metre living room beautifully but you must use seasoned wood - essential. Therefore you need a regular wood supply and a wood store outside, properly vented to prevent rot, so ideal for us in the Norfolk countryside but not necessarily for city folk with their limited space. Thanks for a brilliant little series that for once I can watch and not have to do and pay for !! All the best, Jeroen.
It is not only the noise from the pump Andy, it is the sound of your electric metre taking off due to the amount of juice it takes to run. 💯 agree with your carbon footprint comments with cars, wood burners etc PS. I am subscribed and can’t wait to see why you have a hamster 🐹 cemetery in the back garden with the little crosses
I've just been through this entire thought process. I am (slowly - I am a complete novice) renovating a property I inherited for me and my young family to move into; and wanted a non vented system... I had dreams of utilising a low voltage heating element in the cylinder in place of the 240v one; and using electric solar panels without an inverter to heat water as a 'thermal battery'. Anyway: I did some finger in the air engineering on it and could NOT make the numbers work unless someone donated me a load of modern solar cells and a cheeky wink. What is a FAR better solution (much faster ROI) in MY situation is installing insulation and mush more modern glazing as part of my renovation. This in itself is fraught with issues as I will be doing much of the work myself. That said; my house is also approx 100 years old and has solid walls. I.E. the ROI for insulation is much higher(sooner) for me than many others out there. I would also consider myself something of an environmentalist (raised a flower child hippy, that got an engineering degree) and wouldn't even mind paying a little extra to reduce my family's carbon footprint. But there are better things to spend money on: quality of life to ensure my children have the opportunities many don't and therefore the luxury to be able to make choices in their future that impact the environment less. All of which is a very flowery way of saying: I think wasting less energy and money will pay off in the long run.
I have more or less finished converting a 150yr old barn loft into a 'modern' apartment. New roof, new floor, and a service loft ready for MVHR ducting, and to hide the spray foam. All heating options were considered, gas was a given until the provider increased the original 1k quote to 3k after 6 months to connect to the grid. There was also issue of losing headroom with underfloor heating versus radiators on walls. So . . I invested heavily in insulation - spray foam between rafters in loft, 7" of kingspan in floor joists and apx 2" of insulated plaster straight onto the stone outer walls. Pretty airtight, and maximises thermal mass. Still no actual heating installation apart from shower fan. Oil filled electric rads - 1 always on low over winter keeps building fabric warm, top up as need, if working from home, still trying to decide.
I did the same with my 110 year old terrace house. New windows (double glazed with argon gas) and new exterior doors. I built stud walls against the party walls and insulated those too. New loft insulation, added insulation to all other stud walls - all insulation is rockwool acoustic. I filled every gap I could find with expanding foam. I had a combi boiler fitted to replace oil burner and later replaced all heating pipes and radiators. The result was less pipework and rads that suited the room sizes better. Most years my gas bill has been around £250 per year for all heating, water and cooking. My first winter the oil heating did not work and I was spending £25 per week to heat one room with an electric heater!
Andy, you did well to swerve the ASHP. My friend purchased a property from the 1930's that has one fitted. The house is only 2 beds, but her electricity bill was over double what mine was for a 1960's 3 bed semi with gas central heating and knackered double glazing. She purchased 4 oil filled radiators and halved her energy bills. As for the green homes grant, I can concur that it was a bit of a muddle. I applied for a grant for solar thermal (my choice based on the lack of space for a biomass boiler). Due to the amount of work my installers had on their books I ended up applying for a 3 month extension. 3 weeks short of the extension date ending, they cancelled the grant. Ended up threatening them with Court action so they ended up having to reapply the grant and extend it again to end Nov. System was installed and commissioned last Friday and, despite the freezing weather, the system provided 3 hours worth of water heating on Sunday. Considering my panels are on the front aspect and the sun rises on the back aspect, I was impressed.
Most everyone should be able to find high quality furniture for the same price as cheap chipboard stuff. The only trick is to buy used, not new. Every style, shape and size of furniture is available used at a fraction of the price of something high quality new.
Helps if you have extra space and tools to make changes to it when needed. I have a garage full of spare furniture that I cannot find a property as yet to fit it in to !
When I moved some years ago, because I was seriously downsizing, I had to get rid of 75% of all my furniture. Most of it went to charity shops etc, so hopefully some folk got some good solid stuff at very cheap prices. Because I was moving into a flat, I wanted new furniture that was light and easy to manoeuvre around - so went to IKEA! 😀. I am very careful with my stuff, so it will probably last my lifetime. It all depends on individual circumstances.
This is very weird, there are no incentives from the governement here in Norway, houses are often old and badly insulated and I think the vast majority of detached houses have air to air heatpumps.
Our electricity prices are very high and our gas prices are very low so it means that running an air source heat pump off electric is still very expensive compared to gas. Also our energy companies are looking to switch to hydrogen to power gas boilers instead of lowering the price of electricity. Your electricity will be a lot cheaper than ours.
The counter intuitive thing is that air source heat pumps are actually more efficient at lower temperatures, like you're likely to find in scandinavia. That's because the air can't hold much water. But in the UK, where overnight winter temps are generally in the -2 to 5C range, the air is still incredibly humid. So the heat pump has to put a lot more energy in, in order to avoid ice buildup.
I'm guessing you have very cheap electricity from Hydro. Also Norway makes lots from selling gas to the UK, which is wisely invested by your government for the future. Here in the UK our Oil and Gas revenues (now gone) were squandered on short term feel-good tax cuts.
Extremely glad you covered this topic. Was considering installing an ASHP which would have required substantial works on my behalf to replace gas pipes that were too narrow. Will update to a newer combi and larger radiators instead. Thank you.
You make a lot of sense and raise many subjects around heating and hot water, the long and the short of home heating, is to reduce heat loss, not so much the methodology of how to heat your home. Heat Pumps work, fact, NG boilers work fact, it's up to all the engineers in the heating industry to upscale there knowledge, understand the technologies, get out of the shelter of the past, embrace the world troubles in handling future energy in your home. No one overall solution exists to resolve this 21st Century conundrum. We are in troubled times with all energy solutions in heating your home. Simply less heat loss through the building fabric = smaller energy bills.
I've been agonising over what system to use in my new build for months, I had a quote of 16K for an ASHP setup and I was pretty happy with it. I work in live events and I had a gig cancelled just as I was about to order thanks to COVID this kept happening so I kept delaying waiting for work to start again. Since this didn't happen there came a point where I had to dismiss ASHP and look at other options so I finally decided on a 100L water heater (£185) for hot water and a 19KW 3 phase electric boiler (£1400). I'm running 200sqm's of wet UFH and 5 rads (sized for a ASHP system) the electric boiler will heat water easily to my required 45 degrees which is almost its lowest setting. I don't expect my electricity bills to be unusually high but even if they are a little higher than normal I'm much happier not laying out the extra 14.5K for the ASHP which in my case when I can would be better suited channeled into solar and far more useful.
Very understandable choices. However do not put in microbore piping to the radiators but 15 mm. You can always swap a radiator (not that expensive) but it is a hassle to change underfloor piping. Though (we have just done it in an old 1865 farmhouse) not actually as bad as we had feared. We did not need to redecorate at all.
We're in the Hudson Valley NY where winter temps go down to 10F in February and summer temps go into the 90's F. My neighbors have had geothermal for 3 years and kept warm and cool no problems. We went from an ASHP and an oil furnace combination to geothermal this year. The ASHP kept us warm down to 30F then the oil furnace kicked in saving many gallons of oil. The ASHP worked with no problems during the time we had it. We have vertical loops for the geothermal so it doesn't require a lot of land although we do have 20 acres. Unfortunately the land is all in one direction and our neighbors are very close. So far the geothermal is working fantastically! After all the credits and rebates the system cost $22,000 USD.
Disagree with the comments regarding the ashp. Designed and installed correctly they are more efficient than gas. The reason you over size the radiators is because the heat output is not at 70c like a gas boiler instead lower flow temps but still putting the same level of heat to heat your home. The systems are designed to provide full heat down to -15c and for this reason you purposely oversize them for the worst case scenario. Your other option is air to air which allows you to have cooling in the summer. The bad sides of this are people ripping homeowners off and not understanding what they are installing and then homeowners expecting instant heat and turning it off in between timings. If you also have access to mains gas gas then this is preferable anyway as gas is cheaper (currently) than electric but prices are going up for us all. I've got an air to air system at home (I live in west Yorkshire) we live near a city and there is lots of traffic noise. We also have a combi boiler (3 years old Ideal Vogue C32 which is 90 efficient). The air con is the best in summer and we use it to circulate clean fresh air. I've just done the number crunching based on the new prices following our energy supplier going bust the company we are moving to our tariff is going to double. If the temperature is above 0c then it will be cheaper to run the air con in heating. After that efficiency starts to drop off and gas takes over based on the price per unit of energy right now. Sized correctly and in the right house (no access to mains gas) a air source unit is the way to go over other forms of electric heating.
A very timely find, just doing the same thing, 1930 terrace in need of modernising with no heating but has gas supply. Was thinking going all electric but actually the numbers don’t stack up and this has helped me make come to the same conclusion!
With wood burners it's the particulate pollution, rather than the carbon dioxide that's the issue, even with the new standard there is still PM 2.5 emissions and smaller which are strongly linked to asthma and lung cancer.
@@girlsdrinkfeck no one could ever handle a bit of soot, it gave them lung disease and they died earlier than they should have, and lived in a worse state of health.
Not only totaly agree also its a fact. That's itsbad. I geuss the antivax and a like ( conservatives ) always have a problem with anything they dont like
Great sensible approach heat pumps good in new builds, insulation is the key with low temperatures in existing property it’s a problem and the costs prohibitive .
The biggest thing that annoys me when it comes to climate change discussions, is that it isn't really us, it's big industries causing all the damage. That said, I don't think people should own cars unless essential. But that's mostly down to there being too many cars.
Great video and excellent discussion about heat pumps and the way the UK government are trying to force us down this route. It will almost definitely end in an about turn in a few years time. I had the exact same boiler system installed in my property in January 20 to replace a 20 year old boiler and its amazing. It’s reduced my gas bill significantly and of course I now longer need a large hot water tank in my airing cupboard or a header tank in the attic. I have solar and a battery and have been looking at different technologies and recently purchased an infra-red panel for my garden office. I have been truly impressed with this, it is efficient, it heats the thermal mass instead of the air and is thermostatically controlled. If I did need to change my heating system I would certainly look at these for my main property. They can be installed on walls, ceilings or freestanding and can be made to look like a mirror or even a picture. There are loads of different technologies out there and often the ones pushed by the government and reported in the press are not the ones worth looking at.
Thank you for that, Andy. You have re assured me on many points. Super video and very useful especially now . Lots to be said to be conservative. I love innovation yet don’t like to rush into just anything new which cannot be changed back easily and would be costly again.
With the recent news about additional government grants. This is a great piece and has given me more information about whether an ASHP is right for my property.
I've delt with air source heat pumps here in the Northeastern Seaboard of the US, the view on them is they work well enough for cooling in the warmer months, but you really need a secondary heat source for colder snaps during the Winter.
OK I'd like to take issue with your comments about air source heat pumps. I'm a Domestic Energy Assessor now retired. We spent a Christmas at Winchester at a lodge that had such a system fitted, So as a DEA that had never come across one I was really interested in how it panned out. Everyone thinks that they can add it to existing radiators WRONG it's more efficient using under floor piping. With hard frosts every night. We were warm and comfortable had lots of hot water for showers and couldn't hear a damn thing from the fan. The owner of the lodges had, had all the Lodges fitted with them. He said he'd saved a fortune as all that he was paying for was the electric to turn the fan. So yes they do work. In America they are used extensively. LOVE your vids by the way
Good video. The case for ASHP systems falls apart when you look at running costs. At best you will get 3Kw of heat from 1Kw of electricity via an ASHP. When temperatures drop towards zero you'll struggle to get 1.5kw. A good gas boiler is over 90% efficient. Even today with scary increases in gas prices electricity remains more than 5 times the price of gas. Do the maths, generating 1kw of heat from an ASHP costs way more than 1Kw from a gas boiler. ......and thats before you get to installation costs, the need for huge radiators and the noise issues etc. The RHI grants for ASHPs are ( in my opinion) also a racket. You can only get it if you have the system installed by a certified installer. It's wide open to abuse because all the installer has to do is sell the system through finance which effectively gets funded by the RHI payments. The RHI money is just disappearing into installers pockets, its a pointless exercise.
False claims, sorry to say. Most of the winter you actually get 5 kWh of heat out of 1 kWh of power. I have been running them myself. Only when it is -10 it falls to numbers like that, 1 on 3. My current new house is running mostly 1 on 6 with this weather. And so it is not a wild claim that heat pumps are 500% efficient, as it is just transporting heat. Whereas a combi boiler only makes 9kWh out of 10kWh in a cubic meter of gas. So heat pumps are in fact more efficient to run even when the power comes from a gas power plant. Our previous well insulated row house only used 220kWh of power for heating over a year! Remember that heat pumps are used in Scandinavia, our weahter is easy compared to that.
In Scandi the heat pump runs in drier weather so does not need to defrost frequently in icy conditions. Their electricity is truly green and cheap, ours is neither. Regarding the heat pump installation companies making lots of money- they waste much of their time chasing customers who, when they work out the pitfalls, never go ahead. Frankly it is a mugs game selling heat pumps, we have stopped offering the due to Government distortion in the market.
So here in the States in the rural areas we use propane and it can get really expensive so we put in hybrid systems that use air to air heat pumps down to about 20°, Fahrenheit and then we switch over to the forced air propane furnace. We use a thermostat that's also has an outdoor thermostat and has what they call a balance point setting which is basically where we switch over to gas heat. Some people said it at 32°, some all the way down to 15°, and anything below that you heat with propane. We have also been using spray foam as you said for several years and we use open cell on the roof decking so that even if you get a leak it's no big deal just actually easier to find The leak in a roof because The water will go straight through the open cell foam. All sidewall cavities and foundations we spray with closed cell foam. Then some of us add a thermal break to the inside wall or outside wall or both using 1-in polystyrene with a foil facing and a half inch gap so that you get your radiant barrier. This works especially well on existing roofs where you strip the roof with 2x4s anyway for a steel roof and then fill the gap with 1 in polystyrene foam board with the foil facing up so you get the radiant barrier on your roof. We also have really good water here so some of us use open loop geothermals if we have good wells and we get a 22% federal income tax credit on Geo
10:26 Excuse me but what? First of all, you dont have to dig up all your garden. You drill a hole (bore well) and put the pipes there. That takes about two square meters of space. No large scale digging or big mess. Secondly, what makes you think the heat differential isn't enough. They work here in Finland in -25'C just fine so they woud work in your -8'C as well. Same thing with the air source heat pumps. I installed air source heat pump back in 2007 and it has been heating my 120m2 house since without any problems. We have had several -30'C time periods also and the pump still have worked ok. Of course at those extremely low temperatures it does consume same amount electricity as direct electric heater. Maybe your source of information isn't very good or something....
I’m thinking of going the GSHP route and for me bore holes is the only route but boy are the holes expensive I’m being quoted £14k for three 100 metre holes. So if anyone knows a cheaper way of getting bore holes in SY11 UK happy to hear about it.
I'm 2-3km south of Andy and there are (coal) pit workings underneath us. In the maps I can find online, as of 1892 there were no pits where he is ... but for some reason /sarcasm installers around here want to do a (chargeable) test bore before quoting.
@@chrisbenson1217 Often that is down to effecting the local water table in the local area, we had several schools down south that ended up with carpet GSHP due to the proximity of the local water table to the surface. Andy backs onto a river so I expect the water table around there is quite high and environmental health have to get involved when in that situation for permissions.
Completely agree with the Worcester bosch choice for 2021. Very efficient and quiet and the smart capabilities are excellent. Other technologies are relatively in their infancy and thanks for another great video. 🙂👍
Uhm, Norway here, regular temps down into the -20's, and although the condenser is less efficient it heats my 1920's house (with no extra insulation installed) just fine. Why are you getting just crap condensers that can't even handle -8?!
A few corrections and clarifications for this vid here - please have a read as I'll keep this relatively up-to-date with new findings on the subject: gosforthhandyman.com/corrections/
1000+ comments and counting - thank you so much for taking the time! I've read almost all of them but there's just too many to reply individually. Many good points. A few where folk obviously haven't watched the whole video. Remember I know SQUAT about heat pumps and based my opinions on first hand experiences from folk using the actual systems I talked about - head over to the Community tab to read those replies. Thanks again, interesting subject, keep the comments coming! 👍👍
My strategy, improve insulation dramatically, oversize radiators and install underfloor heating downstairs when refurbishing, this way your gas boiler will operate really happily in its condensing mode with nice low flow temperatures and you've future proofed the transition to a heat pump.
@@edc1569 ... gas prices have surged 500%. I look forward to his future video on how well his new government funded ASHP is working :D
We've had the larger version of that boiler since 2007 (42Cdi combi) Couple of things to watch out for. Where the condensate pipe leaves the house in very cold winter can freeze causing the boiler to throw an "EA" error and refuse to start. Just use a kettle of hot water to unfreeze the pipe if this happens. Second issue is the "Bearing Plate" this is a metal disk (After the fan in the boiler?) with a disk of rubber attached that acts as a "Flappy Valve" type of thing regulating the air into the boiler? where the metal disk touches the rubber should be coated with the lead from a pencil to stop the rubber disk sticking to it otherwise this also will cause the boiler to throw random "EA" errors and refuse to start once more (Ask me how I know..)
This is the first time I have heard someone speak so eloquent and sensible about climate change and associated issues etc…well done. I’d vote for you 👍🇬🇧
was going to say exactly the same Graham - handyman's got at least two votes...
He’s got my vote. I’ve looked into air pump heat and I wouldn’t want it.
Very interesting and well
Presented . Frightening though as we’ve just had spray foam, I hope that doesn’t mean the house is now unmortgageable !
...'eloquently' and 'sensibly'. HTH
Advocating fossil fuel use is far from sensible or sustainable.
These high tech 'combi-boilers' are only as efficient as ever possible through use of microprocessor control and won't work without a power supply.
Is the exhaust hot? Sure, and that is a thermal loss.
Is the hot water supply to showers and hand basins far hotter than need be, and in fact a scalding risk? Well, if so that is risk and needing further use of tempering valves to prevent personal injury... but in any case excessive fuel use for that function.
I'm on the East Coast and live in the open country side. The first thing you learn about living out of town is that when the bad weather hits the first thing to go is the electric supply. We have had to wait up to three days for the power to come back on. On these occasions we depend on our log burner to supply heat, hot water and even heat for cooking. I'm afraid the Government can demand what ever they want but my log burner is staying put. Brilliant video, spot on with the information.
YES! I live in coastal Cumbria and the power goes off, always have a gas fire as instead of electric just in case
@@macraghnaill3553 Your "gas fire" operates without an electric power supply? It must be very old now, low efficiency rated by modern standards and near burnt out, literally.
@@BTW... my gas fire ignition operates by battery as does my gas cooker.
my gas fire can still be bought , gas fires on sale are either powered by battery or piezo ignition
@@macraghnaill3553 So, no room or oven circulation fans to help reduce fuel consumption in either appliance.
@@BTW... the oven doesn't need a fan, neither does the gas fire.
what gas fire uses a fan?
I'm not bothered about fuel consumption
As someone born and living in Sweden, it's fascinating to listen to this. Here everybody and their mother is going heat pump route and it's been going on for 20-30 years. It's air/air, air/water, ground source (and people here drill "energy wells" as in 200 meter deep holes, not dig up their back yard). It's cold here in the winters. Modern heat pumps still work decently down to -30°C.
I currently live in a 50-ties house that originally was built with oil boiler heating, then converted to resistive electric heating. We have no gas. I'm now converting it to ground source heat pump. Everybody else on the street had ground source heat pumps installed 15 years ago, but the then-owner didn't go down that route.
This is like first time I visited the UK and the hotel advertised one of its unique selling points, that it had double paned windows. At the time, I lived in an apartment built in 1961 that had triple glasing from the get-go. Fascinating how different world views can be.
Borehole GSHPs are good. I have worked on them.
I have also worked on Air source heat pumps, and personally I wouldn't go near one unless it's a small new build with good insulation and underfloor heating.
Yes borehole is the way for a heat pump. I stayed in house in Sweden during winter which had the system. Yes triple glazing is probably standard in Sweden.
I do wonder how much solar gain is different between double and triple glazing, to reduce the heat during summer months.
Your area of the world is also known for building very well insulated houses. The UK housing stock was mainly built around the idea that it was first cheap to burn coal and then gas for heating, even now our building standards are something of a joke compared to other parts of the world. So sticking on an air-source heat pump to an average home is a big issue, what is way worse is that the homes are designed around lots of airflow, so just sticking in lots of insulation just causes lots of other issues as the airflow is blocked.
To be fair, your weather does provide quite an incentive to push these measures through. Not to say that the building industry in this country doesn't make me want to tear my hair out! As a then architect, 35 yrs ago I was working towards residential new builds being net zero by 2016. Where did that go? A lot of questions the media presumably thinks is too boring to properly probe.
I am a retired energy professional, I went through the process, here are my findings.
I live in the Netherlands, climate here is pretty much as you described yours.
My house was built in 1980.
I did all the retrofitting needed, and installed a Daikin hybrid heat pump to replace the old combi gas boiler, in early 2017.
I now save about 25% of overall CO2 emissions (including that at the power plant) and about 15% "fuel" costs, compared to before 2017.
What I missed in your video was a look at the possibility of a hybrid heat-pump.
- That would lead to a much lower initial investment.
- While you get the best of both worlds. That is: the system runs on gas OR electricity OR both, depending on what is most efficient, either financially or with respect to overall CO2 emissions.
A heat pump, of any kind, is ONLY the right thing to consider if ALL boxes are checked, either by design or by retrofitting the house.
Particularly:
- the house needs to be well insulated: roof, floor, walls, windows, what have you.
- Furthermore, you need to have the right (Low Temperature) radiators and/or under floor heating.
- Basically you will need to arrive at a situation in which you can heat the house "always" with a water temperature of below 50 C or so and most of the time well below that.
The problem is that most professionals, that have always only ever worked with gas boilers (here anyway, oil too in UK probably), are not capable of getting everything right, or if they are people are not ready to pay for advice on how to redesign everything.
That's where things go often wrong, you ask for a heat-pump and NO fancy expensive comprehensive advice, the response often is: "you want bananas, we give you bananas" and they install a heat pump for you.
Yes exactly this. I'm also from the Netherlands. And our advantage is we have been working with combi boilers for a long time now, and so we are making the next step.
Also, next to that hybrid heat pump you can also think about air conditioners. They heat perfectly fine and don't have dependancies on the radiators and such.
Hi there - We have been looking into heat pumps for a while and have weighed everything up but I cannot get the figures to add up at all. I am interested to read your comment on this video and I cannot help reply to it. You have said you save 15% on energy bills per year, so for example if you had a bill of £2000 per year you save £300 . If you replaced you existing system with a heat pump the installation costs is about £10000 - 15000 for everything including insulating the property properly it will only take between 30-50 years until the heat pump has paid for itself.
@@becausesupsussex4568 Insulation is always a good idea, regardless of the heating source. So in that sense, not really fair towards heat pumps. Just like people saying we need solar panels with heat pumps.
And if you really do insulation with proper heat pump insulation you should of course save more money, while energy prices are only getting higher.
As an alternative you could apply a high quality aircon for heating. It doesnt have to have the power for the coldest winter days, it can just work 70% of the time, the rest can be done by the existing heating source. That way installation is much cheaper. And no dependencies on the type of radiators and so on.
@@becausesupsussex4568
For "older" houses. just insulating is often saving way more than a heat pump could.
In my case insulating (ONLY) lowered the power consumption, for heat only, by over 25%.
As things are: Heat pumps are, for many, an environmental thing more than a money saver.
That 15% was JUST heat pump effect (on top of insulation effect).
At least up to very recent, SINCE: at current (early 2022) prices here (Netherlands) the savings are over 50%, for JUST the heat pump effect.
Pay back time calculation are way more complex than they seem.
Among many other things, it very much depends on the ratio between prices for electricity versus gas (or oil), and on how you expect those to EVOLVE over the live time of said heat pump.
The world is in an energy transition.
It seems reasonable to expect that over time greener and cheaper electricity will become available and gas/oil prices will go up considerably more than those for electricity.
All things considered, I would definitely NOT invest in a new furnace at this point in time. In fact that's what I have been saying for the last 5 years.
ALWAYS:
- insulate (well) first and foremost.
- otherwise a heat pump is bad investment, for several reasons.
The comment on Bananas is apt, and is why there are EU reg's on bananas, you asked for bananas we sent you bananas (small curved yellow things), technically a banana but inedible, we have retrofitted in the past but will not work for people that want corners cut and will not consider the whole solution.
Outrageous. I've just had to listen to a well reasoned and balanced discussion on UA-cam.
thats the only place to get it you want get anything sensible come out of a politicians mouth.
The presenter offers views based on superceded technology and most critically - no actual experience of any ASHP. R290 based systems deliver water at 75*C if you really want it to. The presenter literally says he could not understand the technology or the grants, so rather than find out fitted a combi. Hardly a well reasoned or balanced discussion.
@@JP-zd8hm Isn’t that how it’s done. We look at feedback from other people using things to see if it’s suitable for our needs.
@@clovermark39 ideally journalism would be based on facts and real-world experience rather than heresay, but sure
Hi Andy, just wanted to share my opinion on ASHP. We got one 3 years ago (in Ireland) and I would not go back to anything else for love nor money. It has reduced our heating bills drastically (about 40%) and it gives us a nice comfy temp all year round. Also just wanted to point out that AirSource HeatPumps are also used in Scandinavia where temperatures plummet way below ours and they still do the job properly. You just have to make sure of two things: get a good installer and make sure your house doesn't leak any (or little) heat. The fact that they are better for the environment and that they are better for air pollution in your home, are just bonuses.
ps: a good installer will take everything into consideration: if your house is insutlated well enough, if you rads are the right size etc. but all in all, in the long run, it's worth it.
No Felix it's literally impossible for them to work north of Cardiff. A UA-cam comment said so! 😂😂
@@felixreali7101 What system were you using before because a balanced flue condensing boiler will see around a 40-60% saving in the UK when compared to a conventional boiler. Generally in Scandinavia the winter weather is a dry cold not wet so the ice build up on the units is less, needing the resistive heating element of the unit to come on less. Not quite sure why you had air pollution in your home though?
@@effervescence5664 burning gas ,releases toxins that go into your home, same as a gas burner on a stove
I have some family in Sweden, they only heat their house with a ground source heat pump and an air source heat pump and they have no issues. They have had it for 25 years and their house is very well insulated (almost passive House standards). I think that heat pumps are definitely very interesting but are only really appropriate for really well insulated and air sealed houses.
And... Countries where electricity is cheap?
I think that you might be talking about two different things about ground head... one is more like a dwell and the other is putting plumbing all over. The one Richie's Swedish family has is probably the dwell kind. Guessing from Andys hand waving I'd say he is referring to the pipes-all-over-kind.
Heat pumps work in Scandinavian countries because they use quality wood as part of their building private homes, and this make homes warmer than using cheap bricks!
Heat pumps will fail in the UK under current housing standards, unless new houses are built to accommodate for heating pumps and you need proper insulation and no air drafts! Otherwise in freezing weathers, heating pumps won't warm the house and therefore homes will use electric heaters which will be costly and that defeats the saving claims!!
Same in Austria
In Sweden, there are very few locations is gas in pipes to households, there is also not a lot of usages of gas in tanks. So a gas burner system like used in this video is not an option in most locations in Sweden. In cities most of the heating use district heating. If you are out of a city where it is not available eclectic heating is the main option. So direct electric heating or by using a ground or air heat pump.
In the middle of this winter, you can kick back in the toasty warm comfort of all the hard work you've done.
looks like to me you made a safe, dry, warm home using modern building science techniques. that should mean not just low maintenance, but also low utility bills. my hats off to you sir!
We installed an ASHP in our previous home and would do it again in our next. It was a 9kw panasonic unit. As I'm from the Netherlands we have similar weather. Last winter was the coldest in many years with temperatures dropping to -15c. The heat pump is not very efficient with those kinds of temperatures, but that doesn't matter. It's all about the average throughout the year.
Our house was built in 2015, so fairly good insulation, which is key. 172m2 floor space and it was a corner house. Underfloor heating downstairs and normal radiators upstairs. Normal radiators worked, but lowh2o ones would've been better. The installation together with a 300l hot water tank was 10k, but we got a 2k government grant.
We also installed 18 solar panels which covered the electricity of the heat pump and then some...
Yearly kwh usage through the heat pump including hot water, was about 2800kwh. Total electricity bill for everything was about 40 euros a month....
Wonderful series and one can only hope that your common sense approach to the environmental future and efficiency reaches vast numbers of people. Well done Mr and Mrs Mac.....yet again,!
Thought I'd add my 2 cents about smart thermostats. We have them and love them. We use different rooms at different times of day so can program each room to be a certain temperature when we want it. E.g. my office to be 20 degrees 9-5.30 Monday to Friday. Bedrooms cooler in the day and warmer in the mornings and evenings. It's not just the energy saving that's great, it's more comfortable also. I think it's like you said, different things work for different people in different properties.
Obviously you are a reasonably well off person to have an ‘office’ at home. There are millions of people who only just make ends meet and could not afford all this new technology, also you have to stay in a property for a long time to get the payback from the cost.
I am not against technological advance, rather the other way, but it must be affordable, efficient, silent and proved before we take the leap!
@@petercollins7848 you don't have to be well off to have a office at home. Lost of people working from home now and told they are indefinitely. A 'office' can just be a spare room with a desk in it. I've just had new central heating system as mine was all electric and the cost of having the smart thermostat etc was the same as the ridiculous price we was paying per month on heating the house with electric. Will pay itself off Within a few months.
You have described my problem to a tee. I live in the U.S. Air Source heat pumps work great, how ever, in the U.S we use forced air not hydronics. Secondly inverter technology in the air source heat pump has helped make them way more efficient, Mitsubishi hyper heat puts out 100% of its heat capacity at -15c or 5f. But on the other hand, water is a much better heat transfer medium. You can not only modulate flame, but water temperature as well. I’m in the heating and cooling business, where I live in the U.S we do boiler work as well. Good choice and a good brand. I Just don’t want people to get the wrong idea about heat pumps. Inverter Heat Pumps are very quiet, and is efficient, the conventional heat pumps are only work in mild climates where temperatures don’t go lower then 4-5C or 40F. But conventional heat pumps are loud. Again my only experience is with forced air heat pumps.
Too many people are likely to only listen to anecdotal evidence from their echo chambers online. The fact that there are numerous different types of heat pumps with varying efficiency suitability for different climates means that they are a much more suitable option that this video would lead you to believe.
@@MrManningata Well, there's also the fact different countries employ different standards and not everyone is using the same technology or has the same options to choose from... So YMMV, in some aspects like windows some European countries are way ahead but in others they're behind, for example... So what he stated is likely true for his situation and the options available to him locally. Other comments from the UK seem to indicate this to be the case...
The UK is not a great market for Mini-Splits. So they may not have access to the better and more advance units that can handle pretty cold temperatures, etc. While it's also a matter of building standards as improper application of any technology can give undesirable results and it did take a few decades for many of the advance building technology today to be developed that we shouldn't forget that it may not be available yet to everyone, and older standards can take a long time to change...
@@ZeoCyberG I remember in a boiler class learning that the UK sells more boilers in a year then all of the United States. I hope my original comment wasn’t taken the wrong way. At least here in the US we seem to be a little behind. The better boilers on the market all seem to come from Europe, Bosch/Buderus, Viessmann and the best oil burner I ever worked on again is from Europe, Riello.
I feel like this was a well done video explaining his decision making process and what led him to his decision. I also feel that when natural gas is available and a boiler system is already in the house, a good high efficiency boiler is a great way to go. My first comment was made for the people who live areas who have a lot of forced air systems who believe heat pumps are not good. Ed Manning and you are totally correct as well as this video, take your climate you live in, the technology that is available to you, and your price range to make a well informed decision.
@@randysmith3828 you don't have boilers in the US? How do you get hot water?
@@MrManningata we do have boilers here in the US but mostly in the North East of the country, we mostly get our hot water from stand alone water heaters. Most common are 40 - 50 gallon or 151.4 - 189.3 liter tank type natural gas, propane, or electric. We do have wall hung water heaters just to do hot water and they are gaining popularity here. We also have heat pump water heaters with electric element back up (tank type) which is also gaining popularity. Believe it or not, in old home renovations here in the US, people are a lot of times removing boiler systems in favor of forced air so they can have cooling as well. It’s always fascinating to me to see how other parts of the world do things, European boiler technology in my opinion is the best, then you have the mini split systems coming out of Asia that are absolutely incredible as well.
The one short coming with a on-demand heater is the distance of the furthest sink/shower/bath from the boiler. Especially in a drought prone area like California (obviously no where in the UK). The water waste is excessive unless you add a re-circulation pump, like a Chillipepper, which allows you to pre-circulate the hot water to a distance close to the distant shower/bath to reduce the waste water expelled while you are waiting to be able to step into a warm shower.
well done, Andy Mac! another hot topic from your channel. we also chose to install an efficient gas/combi boiler in our 1910 farmhouse renovation. after months of baffling research (government incentives are equally paradoxical and fickle here in germany) it truly was the most sensible solution for our house and our particular situation. the quotes for 'alternative' heating solutions ranged from 25 k to 65 k euro, possibly somehow including those elusive incentives, but definitely not including in-house pipe and radiator installation, which was needed regardless. the 28 kw gas boiler install was about 3 k euro, and keeps two adults and four dogs in 350 m2 of space plenty warm.
the winters here are generally more extreme than you depict in your region, but we have made a real effort to insulate thoroughly throughout the build, and now in our fourth year (yes, still building full time) we see the benefits of this and have never regretted the decision to go with gas.
your channel is excellent. not only do you tackle pertinent topics and challenging projects for a your active, hands-on viewers, but you manage to document and deliver them consistently with style and humor. truly wunderbar.
thank you for all of that, and for continuing to share with us this renovation. I have been doing this same work full time on our property for years now and still have the need to watch you get dirty. how delightfully insane. dig on.
Please speak now about how good and warm will be the winter with a gas boiler, I bet you already search a heat pump.
Good thought process!
I live in central Canada with winter to summer temps nearing an 80 degree swing! It was up to 37 deg C this summer and it can go as cold as -40 deg C in the winter. I have two heat pumps, one as an air conditioner and adjunct heat in the early winter/late spring. The other is in the workshop with the same use. Air it air heat pump will not help us in the winter.
The rest of the time we only have an electric furnace in the house and electric boiler in the shop with in-floor heating.
Your better makes of boiler (Wooster Bosch, Vallent etc) are made to be able to convert to Hydrogen!
Wood burning stoves are the next to be blacklisted, but there seems little reason for it if you have an A rated one! Ours was the best investment I have made in out house. The only drawback is that once you light it you end up dribbling and watching the faeries all night! Also there is a battle between the cats and the dog for pole position in front of it!
One extra thing that rarely gets mentioned is the chimney. We had a stainless flue put in yet even so when we go to bed the upstairs chimney wall is nice and warm!
ah yes, 'Wooster Bosch' and 'Vallent'. Your better makes of boiler.
Shh don't tell to many people, let them get rip off by the heating engineers.. They don't tell anyone about conversion kits by boiler makers for about 100..the heat pumps people will not be be happy
A couple years ago my parents switched over to solar panels and ASHP from oil and it works great. It is much quieter than their previous oil heating system, you can't even really hear it at all. (they have a Mistubishi heat pump). Their house is so warm now, it's fab, and works just as well in the really cold months. They did need to change some radiators to bigger ones, but that wasn't a big deal for them.
Thanks for your assessment on heating choice Andy, I'm glad we came to same conclusion. I have a near Identical situation as you, with the house having previously had Eco 7 heating, the only difference I have is a log burner with a back boiler, so this contributes to central heating via heat exchanger when in use.
Hi from Dublin, we've just moved into a 1949 end-of-terrace (pretty much a semi-d) house and I'm glued to this project. We've had two quotes for complete new central-heating and combi-boiler systems, to replace an oil-fired system. 8 radiators, combi-boiler and installation was €9400 and €11300. We'll get through winter with the oil until we figure out what's best.
Insulation is key whatever you do to be efficient and . I double glazed the entire apartment, added interior insulation on all exterior walls and had thermally efficient exterior blinds for all windows - then I added the ASHP!
I would like triple glazing with internal blind does it exist ?
What is an "thermally efficient exterior blinds"?
@@michaelwilliams3648 are they the horizontal strips that jut out like on commercial properties that reduce glare?
@@michaelwilliams3648 Shutters that are lowered over the outside of the window either at night or when the sun is very hot in the day. Made of aluminium slats with an insulating foam sandwiched within. Reduces noise a little as well.
@@highpath4776 A quick check with Google says ‘yes’
It's interesting to hear (and learn) about the differences in heating/cooling technologies between the UK and here in Australia. I remember when i moved into a flat that had an "instantaneous gas" hot water system (boiler) - what a revelation over stored hot water. They're brilliant! We don't need central heating in my city (Brisbane, sub-tropical) but they do use it down south in Melbourne & Hobart, and I know that "combi-boilers" are very popular down there. Great video Andy, thank you.
I lived in Gaythorne and absolutely roasted on Xmas day when I lived down under, only had a fan in the bedroom. Remember one real cold day on the building site, hoodies on and wrapped up it was freezing must have been a freak weather bomb ha
I live in a country where it gets to -20 in winter, and my air source heat pump worked fine. However you need underfloor heating and triple glazing. I also had a plant room with a large heat storage collector tank. But yes they are noisy.
can I ask how much an ASHP costs in your country? do you have grants to fit them? is it a "jobs for the boys" scheme?
I located mine behind our garage not next to the house. I agree about underfloor heating and fastidious approach to insulation reaps rewards
@@andyburns The heat pump and installation about 6000 pounds depending on size, no grants.
No underflloor needed . You need to not put you construction floor direct on cold ground and then put your finisched floor on that one. Isolation is the key.i have isolation under Both. No need for under floor heating . Also large radiators !!
No underflloor needed . You need to not put you construction floor direct on cold ground and then put your finisched floor on that one. Isolation is the key.i have isolation under Both. No need for under floor heating . Also large radiators !!
Great timing this - our old gas boiler is coming to the end of its life and this has pretty much confirmed my thinking about just getting it replaced with an up to date condensing gas boiler (5 bed 1970’s detached house)
I'd perhaps seek out other sources of information about heat pumps. I'm afraid he's not well informed and those comments he read out were incredibly inaccurate.
Also quotes energy use for a solid stone built 7 bed farm house for comparisons with avg houses.
Andy, that was actually a very thoughtful discussion on being environmentally sensitive without being stupid (can I use that word anymore?). Well done video. Also, we use lots of spray foam here in western Canada, with SEVERE weather extremes, with no downsides to speak of (if it's properly installed). Just my thoughts. Cheers.
Why wouldn’t you be able to say stupid
From what I have heard they are shite. Here is the UK our houses are not that well insulated so they will not be very efficient. New builds may be a different matter but the fans become noisy for neighbours in built up areas.
I’m renovating my 3 Bed 1940s home and came to exactly the same conclusion when looking to replace the old system boiler. Went with a 36kw combi boiler, new radiators with thermostatic valves and the shower pressure is great, even got rid of the old pump. Still need to insulate below the ground floor. Heat pumps work great in well insulated, air tight houses but not on older properties. My parents are building a passive house & will be installing a heat pump which will work great for them.
Chartered mechanical engineer and energy specialist here - not to be rude, but the myths and misunderstandings of these systems as presented in this video is exactly why uptake in the UK is so poor while the vast majority of other countries in Europe / North America (with much more extreme weather) are proceeding with proper heat electrification. Trust me, if an ASHP or GSHP system can work in Michigan, it can work in Newcastle! To be fair, these systems are very different to wet / rad based fossil fuel boiler systems, and therefore our conventional knowledge of combustion systems does not typically apply. Yes, you must install larger radiators to kick out the appropriate heat (if using a wet system), but this has nothing to do with efficiency. ASHPs are generally 3-4x more efficient than gas boilers, irrespective of how modern they are (bar some caveats around extreme temps). If used correctly, ASHPs in UK weather will year-on-year always be cheaper to run. In truth, insulation is not even an absolute necessity, but will make a home cheaper to run just the same as if you were running on gas so long as radiator sizing / heat inputs are properly addressed.
Don't forget, as well, that wet systems (using radiators) are only one potential solution. Air-to-air heat pumps using cassettes are also just as viable and used worldwide. Noise issues are a fair consideration, but heat pumps are getting quieter and quieter by the year.
Electrification of heat is not going away, and the UK should embrace it. Hydrogen reforming may and combustion are certainly discussed, but will never have the same appeal as a global technology like heat pumps that already has mass adoption.
I am certain that a heat-pump solution would have outperformed the chosen modern gas system in running costs and potentially performance if properly designed and specified. However, the concerns around capital cost of installation are valid, and RHI / other incentives are only getting more and more sparse. Given the home didn't have a wet system to begin with, I can almost be certain in saying the specification of a multi-split reversible air-to-air heat pump with wall mounted cassettes (potentially supplemented by some level of insulation, although not necessarily) would have allowed for a far more efficient, not to mention low carbon solution with the ability so easily integrate things like smart zoning and controls and potential comfort cooling in hot summers which will only become more and more common. And because there would be no plumbing necessary, it may have even come out as cheaper to install!
Thanks for your comment, saved me from some of the despair I felt after watching the nonsense in this video. I wonder how many commercial/public buildings this guy has been in over the last few decades which have been kept perfectly warm by the heat pumps he says don't work as far north as, er, Newcastle. Hardly the arctic circle.
However, I do have concerns around current levels of expertise and support for domestic systems. We have an established supply chain for commercial jobs but how many of those companies could be bothered with dealing with the chaotic retrofit market? The current domestic heating system supply chain (esp retrofit) with plumbers shoving in oversized boilers with zero real design or commissioning could be pretty disastrous for heat pumps - perhaps the reason for some of the negative feedback to date.
Air source heat pumps when used with ducted or mini-split forced air systems are very efficient even in our extreme winters in Minnesota. It must be paired with good insulation and windows. Our heat pump uses around 1.5 kW per hour to run. In 20 degree weather, it runs about 5 hours per day to maintain us at 68 degrees, using around 8 kWh per day. Our old electric heat system used a 10 kW heater, so you can see how much lower our energy bills are with an ASHP.
and any body that argues with someone who buys Bosch well they are showing how much of a rear end they truly are. great choice of product, top of the line.
Hi,
Thank you for your honest approach to this issue. Indeed, we are being desitled on all sides, not only by the media, but also by firms, the state, authority, etc.
Thank you for your honest approach to this hack to finally put the state and the
self-employed in their naked but.
I love the way you think
Keep it safe, it is not over yet.
Willy from Belgiumnk
😷😷😷
At home here in Manchester, 4 bed 2008 detached with an unvented system, fairly well insulated to UK standards, extra insulation in loft + fully boarded. The result has been considerably lower bills than people I know. From April-October, as the house doesn't seem to drop below 20C heating doesn't come on. During a time, 2008-2012, we had the heating on demand the whole day and it was maybe 20% dearer in winter months than now if that - amazing considering those we particularly colder winters. Im typing this on 5th November and heating only just started in the last 2 weeks - outside temp has dropped to 2-5C in the morning.
We definitely would put another jumper on, but rarely we think of needing to do that. When I used to work from home on my own and thought it was a waste of energy to put the CH on just for me during the day, then jumper on it went.
Would I think this house is ready for any of those heating options? No. In nordic countries, where they bore hole GSHS the ground floor has 50cm insulation, walls 25cm and triple glazing. I'd sooner get solar panels with a battery. If I could substantially insulate the house further somehow, then maybe consider bore hole GSHS. Otherwise it would be a huge system expense plus £10 a day during winter for electricity.
Financially-wise, there systems combined would need a 25 year to pay for themselves, not including cost of yearly maintenance. In 25 years time, it probably would be ready to be replaced... so, in all, atm I can't see it as a financial decision. Would be ecological, but the systems are not suited to here at this point in my eyes.
Just a few thoughts on this thorny subject:
1) Government grants: There were two main grants - the green homes grant which provided up to £5000/£10000 for 2/3rds of the install cost upfront. This got cancelled in March without notice (and was stupidly complicated for what it was). There are rumours it will get a replacement soon. And the RHI (Renewable Heat Incentive) which provides pay back over a period of 7 years for installing a range of items and is still open. You could claim both - but the upfront green homes grant would have been deducted from the RHI payments due, so you wouldn't have been able to benefit twice.
2) A central heating system needs designing as a whole system (i.e. the heat producing element, the heat emitters and the pipework connect them). Most people have got lazy as oil boilers & gas boilers worked on the same hot water temperature so radiator sizes were interchangeable so they just follow standard sizes. Heat pumps work more efficiently at lower temperatures, so you need bigger heat emitters to really benefit. Most ASHP problems are because the systems were badly designed (or missold) and users badly informed on how to use them. You can make an ASHP work in any property provided you design the whole system correctly.
3) But having said that, you can't beat the economics of gas if you're on the gas grid. Even with government grants on ASHPs, you can't beat mains gas.
3a) And having said that, you will struggle to beat simply using the money to buy more insulation (fabric first approach). Spending that £60k on insulation would have given you much bigger benefit than spending it all on a funky GSHP - even with keeping the old oil boiler.
4) Don't hold out for hydrogen. Nice on paper - but swapping the grid over in a town from natural gas to hydrogen is going to be almost logistically impossible. Synthetic natural gas is a more likely contender to going carbon neutral (at least for the next 20-30years) - purely because the retrofit is so much easier.
5) And having said that - you will never beat the efficiency (and carbon advantage) of an ASHP/GSHP because they use energy to extract a larger amount of heat from the environment. A gas boiler burning 1kwh at 90%+ will always be beaten by gas power station burning 1kwh at 90%+ that is powering an ASHP extracting 3-4kwh from the environment. But don't confuse efficiency with running costs.
Great post. Adding local PV assistance to the energy supply would further strengthen the point made under 5 as you'd be avoiding grid loss on the power used to run the A/GSHP.
You have pointed out everything that we try to educate customers on with every install. Sadly some of them are green washed into thinking ASHP is the best thing going and that it will save them regardless of the rest of the system even if you take them through all the manufacturers literature and the calculations. We fit 8 ashp last year compared to 6x that in gas systems. The 8 we fitted were all country homes, some units for swimming pools and some for home heating/hot water storage but all were full renovations so all the insulation pipe work, UFH etc could be done. All will be on par/cheaper to run on average than Nat Gas.
But try telling people that are used to 60-80c temps on radiators that running at 50 or below will be more efficient. I don't know why but with UFH they get it and it makes sense, but you put a k3 in with low flow temps and quite often you'll get "but I feel cold". You can educate people but you can't change their mindset/habits over night. The grants also do not cover the redecorating afterwards which would be needed to get to micro bore pips and replace it etc unless people wanted pipework on surfaces but not taking up floors and replacing pipework was often the first thing customers would not want doing regardless of the warnings.
Now we just refuse to do fit ASHP to homes where customers are unwilling to upgrade the necessary parts of the installation. All it does is tarnish our reputation as installers and the technology going forward. Yes we don't tend to fit them north of Cardiff for a few reasons which has changed over time, originally many of the units we'd fit were fine in Scandinavia and Germany where the installer courses took place but they had "dry winters" but when it came to fitting those same units in the UK the rainfall we had led to iceing up and the resistive heaters coming in to defrost the units, increasing winter bills instead of decreasing.
@@effervescence5664 Excellent.
I am old enough to remember when we swapped the UK gas grid from coal gas (which was over 50% hydrogen) to natural gas. Yes, it was a huge task, and yes, it was done.
Going back the other way would be possible, but for the capacity restraints of a less energy dense gas.
@@iainathairydog I was informed that retro fitting into a 1960s house would mean that I would not only spend the RHI but should look to add the equivalent in additional running costs
23 minutes spray foam insulation. We just had vaguely similar thing with our GRP flat roofs - the online insurance questionnaires don't have them in the roof type pick list. Would have had to pay extra to specialist insurer. Went back to a company we used in past and spoke to a real person who could think - she gave lower quote than reason we had left them. A lot of very lazy, simplistic, non-thinking assessment systems in this country
Andy, I must say this have been a great review of your decision regarding home heating. Thanks for the effort you put into this video it certainly provides people with a more balanced view of options, in comparison to governments and energy companies.
Cheers pal. 👍
Agree wit you about Eon. Signed up two years ago specifically because I did not have to have a smart meter. Ended up with numerous phone calls and text messages saying my contract said I had to have one. They contacted me about 25 times saying this. Each time I asked them to show me the paragraph which said I had to. They could not. Basically trying to con and bully people.
Npower were awful to deal with, either not charging the right amounts or not issuing bills at all, or issuing bills after the account was settled and closed. I see nothing has changed since e.on swallowed them up
That's not just E-on unfortunately it's most energy companies. They're mandated by the government to get people onto smart meters and actually subject to charges (fines) if they don't get customers to switch over. It's part of the governments sign up to to carbon neutral by 2050, knowing that customers have the right to refuse but not many customers know they can.
Very interesting vid Andy. Ive just come across it by chance. I worked as an engineer in a frozen food manufacturer and certainly understand refrigeration. People are being totally misinformed when they are told that heat is extracted from glycol in the underground pipes as if by magic. This liquid is used in the evaporator half of the system to exchange heat from the gasses in this section of the system. The AIR source heat system blows ambient air over the evap coils instead. If this air is moist it will form ice on the coils and the bloody thing will sit there in a defrost mode until its ready to start again 🙄. You are totally spot on with the poor amount of actual heat that comes off the condenser ( Heating) side of the system. Your analogy regarding diesel cars is a fine example of government people spouting BS and expecting people to eat it.
Good to hear someone talking sense for a change.
We’ve just had a new Combi boiler fitted - our first ever and getting rid of tanks, pumps etc has freed up space and enabled us to move the boiler out of the (now newly fitted) kitchen. It’s also amazingly efficient.
We have two diesel cars which are so much more efficient than our old petrol ones and as fumes are controlled, I don’t see the problem.
How is electricity generated? Not all wind and water or nuclear, so using fossil fuels perhaps? Neither can I ever see there being enough charging outlets for a country full of electric cars!!!
Oh well. Once it starts affecting the rich, things will change again.
Very interesting, Andy. I have foam loft insulation and a combi boiler so you have set my mind at rest. Very few people can sit and chat with no notes and pass on technical information in a way that even I can understand it 🌞
I agree there is a lack of knowledge around thermostats but we do also have a real problem with a lack of ventilation in well insulated properties in this country. I wonder how often those open windows are because of thermostat illiteracy causing overheating houses and how many are people instinctively thinking their house is getting a bit “stuffy” which might actually be a build up of humidity and CO2.
CO2 ? Not with a flue type heater, unless seriously faulty... and in any case that would be CO (carbon monoxide). Not to say these gas and combustion heaters don't create CO2 and H2O emissions.
The CO2 I am referring to isn’t from heaters. CO2 builds up quickly from people in the building breathing it out without any ventilation to let in fresh air.
Thanks for this. Clearly you have your opinion AND you have left space for others. I am commenting from Gabriola Island in BC Canada. We are a moderate climate with a week to 10 days of below 0 and a few more days of below 5 in an average winter. I live by the water. I put a Fujitsu high efficiency heat pump in 7 years ago and I am very very pleased. One 12,000 BTU unit (Air to Air) heats my 2 br 1200 sq ft house. On cold days I do use my oil fired furnace to supplement but that would just be for 15 minutes at a time maybe 3 to 4 times a day. Heating bills are about 1/3 of what they used to be. On my island community we have a co-op that gets these units wholesale and provides them to residents at cost plus a donation to their charity which would translate to about 75 or 80 GBP. They have installed many many hundreds of these on our small island and the electric utility can notice the reduction in electrical demand. I do agree however that lots of contractors just add the government subsidy onto their installation costs so it stays very expensive for many.
My home is a wimpy no fines (concrete) semi-detached . The purchase price was cheap but the insulation was non-existent so started from scratch. So i have installed 1, spray foam loft insulation, 2 under floor insulation, 3 triple glazing, 4 external insulation ( via green homes grant scheme) 5 air source heat pump (using the renewable homes incentive) including all new radiators 6 Solar panels 3.6kwh installed on garage roof and 4kwh battery storage. 7 Hive smart thermostat . You may say this an extreme example and i would agree but i believe every home in the UK needs a professional assessment and generous government incentives provided to the least efficient homes .People would not undertake a project like this if it wasn't there" forever" home. My energy bills have reduced by 95% but the money saved goes towards the finance i have taken out. I hope to benefit from the reduced running costs in years to come.
I probably would not qualify for the finance, being well into old age pension age
As an engineer what you've done is our normal recommendation for the best chance at cost saving or parity with gas when having a heat pump installed. Sadly many people can't get the finance or grants to cover it and much of the existing housing stock in the UK needs upgrading be it private or council owned including new builds built in the last 10 years with microbore pipework.
Just another observation regarding the noise. My ashp is much quieter than the exhaust steam/gases from my neighbours gas boiler. Also the video from “ My Home Farm “ are very accurate. As my house needed to be re rendered after the external insulation all my projects had to be done in a strict order . This meant that the ashp was fitted before the insulation was fitted . That 2 month period my electricity bill was truly eye watering . I think ashp could work for many people but the government needs to substantially increase the incentives available.
How much did all this cost ( excluding grants)?
@@katabrontes Just over £30k…….( £15k in government grants) Gulp . If you are thinking of ashp you need to do this before any insulation project because the amount of grant you get depends on the current level of insulation in the house
Many thanks for that most informative and balanced video. We have a combi boiler that replaced the previous combi boiler about 8 years ago and we use LPG as we are in a rural property. During the warmer months, as the boiler is only having to heat water for showers and washing up, we use very little gas. However, we do use much more once the heating kicks in but we go for an extra layer of clothing before we turn the thermostat up. And yes, we have a diesel car, purchased when they were rated at zero for road tax and the government was saying 'buy diesel'. It does about 65mpg, far better than the hybrid we test drove the other day! Your comments on heat sourced air pumps do demonstrate that not enough though has been given to this issue by the government. Thanks again.
Hey Andy Mac!
More interesting content. Mrs. Mac's palace is coming along nicely. I suspect your ongoing efforts will keep you in her good graces for some time to come. Both of ya keep doin' you! Stay healthy, keep playing.
My personal thoughts on any modern home conditioning system is that we are stuck with the commonly installed stuff. Every time I watch the excellent Matt Resinger show the new stuff all I can think of is that I need to be building a 500k plus home or it’s out of reach.
Absolutely spot on, Andy! The proper way forward is to insulate and make airtight the old leaky properties, and to update existing kit - my soon to be scrapped boiler was installed in 1974!!
Using much less gas is a better answer than switching wholesale to an expensive and unreliable system - more research and development is needed, but the politicians need a 'quick fix' - which always turns out to be neither quick, nor a 'fix'!
My neighbor and my niece both installed an air source heat pump in their new builds - hot air rather than hot water systems. Both seem happy with them, but we had a relatively mild winter here in New England, the neighbor's house is less than 500 square feet, and my niece's digs are a new second floor atop her mother's oil-furnace house. Neither use them for hot water. So their heat pumps didn't have to work very hard. A nearby library installed a ground-source heat pump about ten years ago, and the complex plumbing has required expensive repairs.
When completed, you'll have a relatively large house and a need for a dependable supply of hot water. You have natural gas available, your boiler was not expensive to install, and if it ever needs repair the parts are readily available. Most of all, the convoluted process for obtaining a government rebate on a heat pump wasn't worth the time and aggravation. While I think heat pumps may eventually become standard equipment, that day has not yet arrived.
New England winters are generally significantly colder than winters in the UK.
@@jeremybarker7577 That they are! I was surprised that in the past couple of years air-sourced heat pumps are being marketed here with some success. I expect you'd still need some backup (electric resistance or propane heater) when the temp gets close to 0 degrees F.
A lot of good info in this 👍🏻
Completely agree about the furniture, and let's be honest it's not even really wood so can't even be used for other purposes when it's beyond repair.
Borehole ground source system (doesn't seem to be discussed in video here) should work better than a near underground pipe system, of course there would need to be some sort of drill rig that could get in behind a house.
Bunging in a heat pump without reworking the way heat is radiated into the house is really a bad idea, the whole thing needs to be re-reviewed/re-worked.
One of the best ‘holeistic’ videos I’ve watched on this very interesting subject.
Many thanks for an excellent video. I have been wrestling with the same issues and have decided to go with a gas boiler for central heating. I live in Santiago, Chile so will be installing also into the heating circuit a solar water heater, so this will preheat the water before it goes to the boiler and reduce gas consumption (variable heat boiler needed). Not sure combi boilers are available here. The heating system is with radiators and with a heat pump I could not get the water temperatures I needed, without swapping out all of the radiators.
What you said about sustainability and climate change is absolutely spot on. I think far too often the latest in thing is seen as the silver bullet when it's anything but. Diesel cars and Electric cars, is something that absolutely confuses me because there is actually a study from 2020 that confirms Diesel cars are more environmentally friendly than any other vehicle type. In terms of sustainability of houses, something as simple as switching light bulbs to LED can make a huge difference to energy consumption, yet I imagine there are plenty of houses still using the old style bulbs. You're absolutely spot on when you say it's about building a system of sustainability as opposed to looking for a magic fix everything solution.
Ageed, but then look at the light fittings. Do they 'take' the new 'bulbs'? Many do, but several of mine are dark at the bayonet and the illumination is at the other end and potentially protruding beyond the shade. Change the fittings! Yes several £1000 to the manufacturers and a whole lot more land fill. Green issues, are complex, like most problems and one size does not fit all.
The bigger factor in switching to a non combustion setup is the air quality, not the energy efficiency. Especially now that you have greatly reduced the amount of air leaks in the house, not bringing in things that lower the air quality is much more important. With an old leaky house this didn't matter. But we have run countless home chemistry experiments that prove how bad burning natural gas in an air tight house is for you.
I suppose there must be some tiny proportion of the gas which fails to combust, and that leaks into the sealed home along with the combustion products?
My prior home had a heat pump (fan forced ducting). It kept the home plenty warm - except during winter power outages. Also, in the winter the 5Kw resistance supplement would kick in, skyrocketing the electric bill. Current house uses gas for heating, electric for cooling. The gas is much cheaper for heating, and I can connect the system to a small generator if the power is out. Our state is wanting to push electric conversion. I’ll resist until forced to. Good luck and great work!
I retro fitted underfloor heating, upstairs and down, in my 1970s home back in 2016 and this included Cavity wall, 15mm floor insulation, 75mm between all the joists in the 1st floor and 300mm in the loft space, we spent a considerable amount of time investigating ASHP technology as they are more suited to under floor but eventually came to the conclusion the cost was the major factor against it and will never be replacement for gas boilers, Most houses in this country will never be suitable for them due to the level of insulation required, as you have pointed out unless you are going to do a full renovation with a view to upgrading all your insulation along with all new bigger radiators or under floor you will struggle to get the ASHP to work efficiently enough, if you replacing oil and have no gas then yes but anyone on mains gas will defiantly not see any benefit and when you factor in the costs, even with government grants, it's a huge investment to rip out and replace something that's already doing the job
Brilliant, and timely for me, video! Thanks. Especially loved and agree with your cup-of-tea segment in your ‘office’.
I came to the same conclusion to avoid ashp's to replace gas boilers when renovating our property. Tbh your video is the best i've seen on the internet discussing them, would have helped bigtime when I was researching.
I love the guy too but the RHI isn't all that difficult to work out. In fact if he had had a heating engineer out (heat pump trained) they would have explained it to them done a heating calculation for the house to see how well it would work.
He's put in so much work on insulation that I'm confident it would work fine.
It would mean having it on a low level all the time in the winter, used in a very different way to blast on blast off. But these things are used widely in much colder places than Newcastle and work just fine. And as Andy says thicker radiators.
Gas boilers emit twice as much greenhouse gases as power stations in the UK and 8x the amount of N02 too (linked to air pollution deaths, cancers lung, heart and vascular disease Inc. Strokes / dementia - you don't want this stuff being pumped out of your house where you, your kids and neighbours breathe it in.
As someone that has always steered clear of heat pumps over the years, I decided to give a modern 'split' 3.5kw heat pump a go for one of my areas. These blow the air around rather than use conventional radiators. It certainly seems to do the business from what I can tell, was a reasonable DIY fit and cost £650.00. Outside temperature is 21C at the moment and on heat, it brings the temperature up very fast as one would expect, but on cold, which is probably a better test at these temperatures, it works well too, so I am holding out reasonable hopes for winter running. 1:3.5 efficiency and a maximum 1kW input. Still consider many properties in the UK are not suited for full installs and most installers don't have the knowledge to properly assess system requirements but as to the efficiency and performance of modern air source heat pumps, I might just have to start rethinking my stand on them.
by the way, spray foam insulation I have seen all sort of issues with over the years with roof's. Foam generally cracks away, moisture gets above it and rots battens and galvanised nails. Depends on the climate it's in but UK has one of the worst moist climates when rot can occur.
Curious how these are doing for heating, now the weather is cooler? Interested as would love them for main bedroom and living area so we could also cool in the summer.
I was recommended the only way I could heat my house (large detached victorian property, solid walls, etc) with an ASHP was to have a hybrid oil model, the quote (before RHI repayments) along with some other plumbing works I wanted was £24k, .. £1k of that was just radiators.
Also, "in the winter it will almost certainly be running entirely off of oil", it couldn't do both at the same time. I asked for a quote for a new external oil boiler with the same plumbing works above minus radiators (they were only needed just for RHI) and it came in under £9k.
I think max RHI repayments was £10k repaid over numerous years. The maths just didn't work out sadly. So oil boiler it is.
@@TheFarmingEngineerUK Only a month or so ago. It was a large vicarage that was knocked through into the neighbouring house to make one big very cold one. The incoming boiler (26kwh) supports bio-fuel although that still appears to be in trials.
On the car note, I remember seeing an article in I think the Telegraph about this. Said "the greenest car is the one already in your garage". People buying new cars because they're more green fail to account for the manufacturing and material footprint.
Exactly, but that doesn’t fit with capitalism. Electric cars are highly polluting to manufacture and are going to run into problems with battery replacement which is the most polluting part. Hydrogen is the way forward, made by off shore wind farm’s.
We’ve had air source for almost a year now and it works fine, last winter it got pretty cold here in the south east we had large amounts of snow on the ground for a couple weeks and some savagely cold nights and it dealt with it no problems. Only issue is it can seem a bit loud at times but nothing dreadful, just be mindful of where the outside unit is installed.
Thanks for having the different video Sections labeled. This is the 1st time I've seen that.
Here in New York State we have a company called "Dandelion" that installs "geothermal" systems, I assume this is what they call "ground source" in the UK. Dandelion identified NY as the ideal location for a bunch of reasons... cost of heating, climate, income... not sure all the reasons. They streamlined the process and they drill a vertical loop instead going out horizontally, so it can be installed fairly easily even in small yards. they have a smaller custom drilling rig that is more compact than typical, I believe they use 10 foot [2.5 Meter] sections instead of typical [~30' lengths]
You can either pay total cost upfront or essentially rent the system while paying less than your old system, people are typically replacing oil fired furnaces with these. I've seen many references to Hydronic radiator systems connected to these systems in the UK, but the Dandelion system only works with forced air systems. Most oil fired systems in this area, NE USA, use radiators... although Canadians seem to have more forced air.
They seem to make much more sense than Air source systems, because the ground temp is in your favor based on the season. In summer Ground/Geo can easily give extra heat to 55f/12c ground temp vs 85f/30c air, and in winter we can be at below 32f/0c for weeks at a time, and typically have one week of 15f highs at which point the ground source is about 40f warmer.
In the US people in moderate climates, esp. where they might not have a full heating system use what we call a "heat pump", and I would assume that is an air source system. They are usually a mini split, outside compressor heat exchanger with interior wall mounted air handler. Heating is usually an upgraded model from cooling only, but seems to now be the norm. It was widely thought that heating was only practical in moderately cool months, but many new systems claim to work down to very cold temps.
We have an Oil fired radiator system, with a mini split in 3 rooms. And we use heat pump option before start using whole house heating, or if we will be in room for a short time. It does put out heat in very cold weather, but it seems to be working very hard and there is a lot of hissing and spiting as the coolant moves through the lines.
Also, I have not seen a whole house air source heating system in the US. Probably the most popular system upgrade here is what you just installed, gas fired on demand hydronic system.
Very interesting discussion on how things are different across the pond. It seems like it may be little easier for you guys to switch over to heat pumps, due to the way you heat your homes. Also having a big 'yard' helps with more space for a collector for geothermal. Here in the UK our 'gardens' are mostly tiny, and many new homes don't have them at all!
proper honest presentation excellent advice . I trippled the radiator size in our bathrooms and lowered the central heating temperature .10 C
What an excellent video! A pragmatic discussion of all options, and very useful for others with period properties who may be weighing up their options.
It may be, of course, that combi boilers will keep going in the future by using hydrogen, if the experiments in the North East go well.
(Of course, the old town gas, made from coal, was around 50% hydrogen, so it’s not such a new concept.)
How energy intensive is town gas production?
@@JohnnyMotel99 Hi Rob. No idea really, as it was phased out in the U.K. in the sixties, and it’s not coming back now!
@@SteveHit1 That's true, however, as you say it's 50% H2 and that would eliminate ~50% emissions compared to pure nat gas. Perhaps we should produce H2 via electrolysis and mix that into nat gas...
@@JohnnyMotel99 I agree totally with your suggestion for addition of H2 to natural gas. As you say, it would result in a massive reduction in emissions, with only minimal effort - especially in comparison with heat pumps.
@@SteveHit1 This adding H2 to Nat gas is actually a thing. It’s been proposed to uk government that 20% H2 could be added to our gas network and save millions of tons of CO2. That could be the limit before burners needed alterations, but maybe not.
Here in The Great Industrial Northeast we measure winter in months and summer in weeks.
Winters can be brutal with temps going down as low as -20°F and wind chills of -45°F, although that is not common.
Summers can go into the high 90's F, although we can usually count the fingers on our hands the number of days over 90°F and some summers have none.
And, our weather is prone to extremes. One winter may see a few inches of snow and the next, ground is covered in feet of snow although the trend lately has been milder winters.
And it may be 82°F one day and the next 54°F.
So, one thing around here is the weather is not boring!
Generally agreed with your comments about heating and driving but I think you neglected the real drivers for change which are that gas supplies are declining or coming from increasingly unreliable sources, same for petrol. Also the problem with diesel is not the efficiency but the air pollution.
Great channel, thanks for sharing.
With respect for your direct experience, much of what you say at 11:00 regarding heating systems is not based on much and rubbish. Here in the NE US where we touch against Canada, we use “cold climate” design air-to-air heat pumps that provide good capacity right down to -15F (-26C ). The experience in poorly insulated houses is that an existing fossil fuel system is a good back up for about 100 HOURS per year, usually overnights only and warms up in the morning. In well insulated houses no FF back up is used successfully. I installed an air-to-water heat pump with buffer tank and radiant floor as primary distribution inside. Owner immediately had a nice warm experience and continuous operation of this heat pump through the next week when low temps hit -28 C - no issues.
EON. Oh dear - just signed up to a fixed energy deal with them for the next year. Will see how that goes!
Used EON and EDF in the past 10 years no issue other than call centers etc
I've generally had no problems with EON and were with them for some time, I had more issues with British Gas customer service. But I guess everyone will have different experiences
Had my ashp now into my 3rd year and have found it so quite I have to go outside to stand in front of it when it's on just to feel the air it puts out. As for the heating system keep the thermostat at 18c and it's fine. I had a combi before I changed and found that if it broke down you got no hot water or heating with the ashp you have a immersion on the tank so at least you can have hot water. So I for one are happy with my choice , as for the grants I get 4 payments a year from the government which in turn pays just about half my energy costs admittedly you only get this for 7 years and by then they probably will some other insensitive, keep up with your video I find them informative
Smart TRVs are really great if you want different schedules in different rooms of your house or your main thermostat is not in the coldest part of your house. We had a poorly insulated bathroom extension and a smart TRV was great for keeping that room heating while the rest of the house was at the right temperature.
I'm glad I subscribed at the beginning of this renovation, I've learned a lot, cheers.
Totally agree with all you've said re Combis and Wood burning stoves (& politics). We have identical boiler and very happy with the economics, efficiency and the quietness! Our WBS heats an 8 x 4 metre living room beautifully but you must use seasoned wood - essential. Therefore you need a regular wood supply and a wood store outside, properly vented to prevent rot, so ideal for us in the Norfolk countryside but not necessarily for city folk with their limited space. Thanks for a brilliant little series that for once I can watch and not have to do and pay for !! All the best, Jeroen.
It is not only the noise from the pump Andy, it is the sound of your electric metre taking off due to the amount of juice it takes to run.
💯 agree with your carbon footprint comments with cars, wood burners etc
PS. I am subscribed and can’t wait to see why you have a hamster 🐹 cemetery in the back garden with the little crosses
Great video, I was suspicious about the heat pumps already but found this video very informative.
I've just been through this entire thought process. I am (slowly - I am a complete novice) renovating a property I inherited for me and my young family to move into; and wanted a non vented system... I had dreams of utilising a low voltage heating element in the cylinder in place of the 240v one; and using electric solar panels without an inverter to heat water as a 'thermal battery'. Anyway: I did some finger in the air engineering on it and could NOT make the numbers work unless someone donated me a load of modern solar cells and a cheeky wink.
What is a FAR better solution (much faster ROI) in MY situation is installing insulation and mush more modern glazing as part of my renovation. This in itself is fraught with issues as I will be doing much of the work myself. That said; my house is also approx 100 years old and has solid walls. I.E. the ROI for insulation is much higher(sooner) for me than many others out there.
I would also consider myself something of an environmentalist (raised a flower child hippy, that got an engineering degree) and wouldn't even mind paying a little extra to reduce my family's carbon footprint. But there are better things to spend money on: quality of life to ensure my children have the opportunities many don't and therefore the luxury to be able to make choices in their future that impact the environment less. All of which is a very flowery way of saying: I think wasting less energy and money will pay off in the long run.
I have more or less finished converting a 150yr old barn loft into a 'modern' apartment. New roof, new floor, and a service loft ready for MVHR ducting, and to hide the spray foam.
All heating options were considered, gas was a given until the provider increased the original 1k quote to 3k after 6 months to connect to the grid. There was also issue of losing headroom with underfloor heating versus radiators on walls.
So . .
I invested heavily in insulation - spray foam between rafters in loft, 7" of kingspan in floor joists and apx 2" of insulated plaster straight onto the stone outer walls. Pretty airtight, and maximises thermal mass. Still no actual heating installation apart from shower fan. Oil filled electric rads - 1 always on low over winter keeps building fabric warm, top up as need, if working from home, still trying to decide.
I did the same with my 110 year old terrace house. New windows (double glazed with argon gas) and new exterior doors. I built stud walls against the party walls and insulated those too. New loft insulation, added insulation to all other stud walls - all insulation is rockwool acoustic. I filled every gap I could find with expanding foam. I had a combi boiler fitted to replace oil burner and later replaced all heating pipes and radiators. The result was less pipework and rads that suited the room sizes better. Most years my gas bill has been around £250 per year for all heating, water and cooking. My first winter the oil heating did not work and I was spending £25 per week to heat one room with an electric heater!
Andy, you did well to swerve the ASHP. My friend purchased a property from the 1930's that has one fitted. The house is only 2 beds, but her electricity bill was over double what mine was for a 1960's 3 bed semi with gas central heating and knackered double glazing.
She purchased 4 oil filled radiators and halved her energy bills.
As for the green homes grant, I can concur that it was a bit of a muddle. I applied for a grant for solar thermal (my choice based on the lack of space for a biomass boiler).
Due to the amount of work my installers had on their books I ended up applying for a 3 month extension.
3 weeks short of the extension date ending, they cancelled the grant. Ended up threatening them with Court action so they ended up having to reapply the grant and extend it again to end Nov.
System was installed and commissioned last Friday and, despite the freezing weather, the system provided 3 hours worth of water heating on Sunday.
Considering my panels are on the front aspect and the sun rises on the back aspect, I was impressed.
Most everyone should be able to find high quality furniture for the same price as cheap chipboard stuff. The only trick is to buy used, not new. Every style, shape and size of furniture is available used at a fraction of the price of something high quality new.
Helps if you have extra space and tools to make changes to it when needed. I have a garage full of spare furniture that I cannot find a property as yet to fit it in to !
When I moved some years ago, because I was seriously downsizing, I had to get rid of 75% of all my furniture. Most of it went to charity shops etc, so hopefully some folk got some good solid stuff at very cheap prices. Because I was moving into a flat, I wanted new furniture that was light and easy to manoeuvre around - so went to IKEA! 😀. I am very careful with my stuff, so it will probably last my lifetime. It all depends on individual circumstances.
Your analysis there I think was spot on, I've been along term fan of the combi boiler 👍
This is very weird, there are no incentives from the governement here in Norway, houses are often old and badly insulated and I think the vast majority of detached houses have air to air heatpumps.
Our electricity prices are very high and our gas prices are very low so it means that running an air source heat pump off electric is still very expensive compared to gas. Also our energy companies are looking to switch to hydrogen to power gas boilers instead of lowering the price of electricity. Your electricity will be a lot cheaper than ours.
The counter intuitive thing is that air source heat pumps are actually more efficient at lower temperatures, like you're likely to find in scandinavia. That's because the air can't hold much water. But in the UK, where overnight winter temps are generally in the -2 to 5C range, the air is still incredibly humid. So the heat pump has to put a lot more energy in, in order to avoid ice buildup.
@@ComeWhatThey Thanks that's interesting. Yes ours get a thick frost coating too.
I'm guessing you have very cheap electricity from Hydro. Also Norway makes lots from selling gas to the UK, which is wisely invested by your government for the future. Here in the UK our Oil and Gas revenues (now gone) were squandered on short term feel-good tax cuts.
You never miss what you never had, a wise man once said!
Extremely glad you covered this topic. Was considering installing an ASHP which would have required substantial works on my behalf to replace gas pipes that were too narrow. Will update to a newer combi and larger radiators instead. Thank you.
You make a lot of sense and raise many subjects around heating and hot water, the long and the short of home heating, is to reduce heat loss, not so much the methodology of how to heat your home. Heat Pumps work, fact, NG boilers work fact, it's up to all the engineers in the heating industry to upscale there knowledge, understand the technologies, get out of the shelter of the past, embrace the world troubles in handling future energy in your home. No one overall solution exists to resolve this 21st Century conundrum. We are in troubled times with all energy solutions in heating your home. Simply less heat loss through the building fabric = smaller energy bills.
I've been agonising over what system to use in my new build for months, I had a quote of 16K for an ASHP setup and I was pretty happy with it. I work in live events and I had a gig cancelled just as I was about to order thanks to COVID this kept happening so I kept delaying waiting for work to start again. Since this didn't happen there came a point where I had to dismiss ASHP and look at other options so I finally decided on a 100L water heater (£185) for hot water and a 19KW 3 phase electric boiler (£1400). I'm running 200sqm's of wet UFH and 5 rads (sized for a ASHP system) the electric boiler will heat water easily to my required 45 degrees which is almost its lowest setting. I don't expect my electricity bills to be unusually high but even if they are a little higher than normal I'm much happier not laying out the extra 14.5K for the ASHP which in my case when I can would be better suited channeled into solar and far more useful.
Very understandable choices. However do not put in microbore piping to the radiators but 15 mm. You can always swap a radiator (not that expensive) but it is a hassle to change underfloor piping. Though (we have just done it in an old 1865 farmhouse) not actually as bad as we had feared. We did not need to redecorate at all.
We're in the Hudson Valley NY where winter temps go down to 10F in February and summer temps go into the 90's F. My neighbors have had geothermal for 3 years and kept warm and cool no problems. We went from an ASHP and an oil furnace combination to geothermal this year. The ASHP kept us warm down to 30F then the oil furnace kicked in saving many gallons of oil. The ASHP worked with no problems during the time we had it. We have vertical loops for the geothermal so it doesn't require a lot of land although we do have 20 acres. Unfortunately the land is all in one direction and our neighbors are very close. So far the geothermal is working fantastically! After all the credits and rebates the system cost $22,000 USD.
Disagree with the comments regarding the ashp. Designed and installed correctly they are more efficient than gas. The reason you over size the radiators is because the heat output is not at 70c like a gas boiler instead lower flow temps but still putting the same level of heat to heat your home. The systems are designed to provide full heat down to -15c and for this reason you purposely oversize them for the worst case scenario. Your other option is air to air which allows you to have cooling in the summer. The bad sides of this are people ripping homeowners off and not understanding what they are installing and then homeowners expecting instant heat and turning it off in between timings. If you also have access to mains gas gas then this is preferable anyway as gas is cheaper (currently) than electric but prices are going up for us all. I've got an air to air system at home (I live in west Yorkshire) we live near a city and there is lots of traffic noise. We also have a combi boiler (3 years old Ideal Vogue C32 which is 90 efficient). The air con is the best in summer and we use it to circulate clean fresh air. I've just done the number crunching based on the new prices following our energy supplier going bust the company we are moving to our tariff is going to double. If the temperature is above 0c then it will be cheaper to run the air con in heating. After that efficiency starts to drop off and gas takes over based on the price per unit of energy right now. Sized correctly and in the right house (no access to mains gas) a air source unit is the way to go over other forms of electric heating.
A very timely find, just doing the same thing, 1930 terrace in need of modernising with no heating but has gas supply. Was thinking going all electric but actually the numbers don’t stack up and this has helped me make come to the same conclusion!
With wood burners it's the particulate pollution, rather than the carbon dioxide that's the issue, even with the new standard there is still PM 2.5 emissions and smaller which are strongly linked to asthma and lung cancer.
farts, volcanoes, wildfires, things decaying...life dude.
@@monabale8263 no wonder humans r weak these days lol cant handle a bit of soot
@@girlsdrinkfeck no one could ever handle a bit of soot, it gave them lung disease and they died earlier than they should have, and lived in a worse state of health.
@@Lewis_Standing thats some woke cukkage
Not only totaly agree also its a fact. That's itsbad. I geuss the antivax and a like ( conservatives ) always have a problem with anything they dont like
Great sensible approach heat pumps good in new builds, insulation is the key with low temperatures in existing property it’s a problem
and the costs prohibitive .
The biggest thing that annoys me when it comes to climate change discussions, is that it isn't really us, it's big industries causing all the damage. That said, I don't think people should own cars unless essential. But that's mostly down to there being too many cars.
Er, the big industries are making your products?
do you have an essential car?
@@andyharpist2938 I bet he does. Yet thinks ours are inessential.
Great video and excellent discussion about heat pumps and the way the UK government are trying to force us down this route. It will almost definitely end in an about turn in a few years time. I had the exact same boiler system installed in my property in January 20 to replace a 20 year old boiler and its amazing. It’s reduced my gas bill significantly and of course I now longer need a large hot water tank in my airing cupboard or a header tank in the attic. I have solar and a battery and have been looking at different technologies and recently purchased an infra-red panel for my garden office. I have been truly impressed with this, it is efficient, it heats the thermal mass instead of the air and is thermostatically controlled. If I did need to change my heating system I would certainly look at these for my main property. They can be installed on walls, ceilings or freestanding and can be made to look like a mirror or even a picture. There are loads of different technologies out there and often the ones pushed by the government and reported in the press are not the ones worth looking at.
Thank you for that, Andy. You have re assured me on many points. Super video and very useful especially now . Lots to be said to be conservative.
I love innovation yet don’t like to rush into just anything new which cannot be changed back easily and would be costly again.
With the recent news about additional government grants. This is a great piece and has given me more information about whether an ASHP is right for my property.
I've delt with air source heat pumps here in the Northeastern Seaboard of the US, the view on them is they work well enough for cooling in the warmer months, but you really need a secondary heat source for colder snaps during the Winter.
OK I'd like to take issue with your comments about air source heat pumps.
I'm a Domestic Energy Assessor now retired. We spent a Christmas at Winchester at a lodge that had such a system fitted, So as a DEA that had never come across one I was really interested in how it panned out. Everyone thinks that they can add it to existing radiators WRONG it's more efficient using under floor piping. With hard frosts every night. We were warm and comfortable had lots of hot water for showers and couldn't hear a damn thing from the fan. The owner of the lodges had, had all the Lodges fitted with them. He said he'd saved a fortune as all that he was paying for was the electric to turn the fan. So yes they do work. In America they are used extensively. LOVE your vids by the way
Good video. The case for ASHP systems falls apart when you look at running costs. At best you will get 3Kw of heat from 1Kw of electricity via an ASHP. When temperatures drop towards zero you'll struggle to get 1.5kw. A good gas boiler is over 90% efficient. Even today with scary increases in gas prices electricity remains more than 5 times the price of gas. Do the maths, generating 1kw of heat from an ASHP costs way more than 1Kw from a gas boiler.
......and thats before you get to installation costs, the need for huge radiators and the noise issues etc.
The RHI grants for ASHPs are ( in my opinion) also a racket. You can only get it if you have the system installed by a certified installer. It's wide open to abuse because all the installer has to do is sell the system through finance which effectively gets funded by the RHI payments. The RHI money is just disappearing into installers pockets, its a pointless exercise.
False claims, sorry to say. Most of the winter you actually get 5 kWh of heat out of 1 kWh of power. I have been running them myself. Only when it is -10 it falls to numbers like that, 1 on 3.
My current new house is running mostly 1 on 6 with this weather.
And so it is not a wild claim that heat pumps are 500% efficient, as it is just transporting heat. Whereas a combi boiler only makes 9kWh out of 10kWh in a cubic meter of gas. So heat pumps are in fact more efficient to run even when the power comes from a gas power plant.
Our previous well insulated row house only used 220kWh of power for heating over a year!
Remember that heat pumps are used in Scandinavia, our weahter is easy compared to that.
In Scandi the heat pump runs in drier weather so does not need to defrost frequently in icy conditions.
Their electricity is truly green and cheap, ours is neither.
Regarding the heat pump installation companies making lots of money- they waste much of their time chasing customers who, when they work out the pitfalls, never go ahead. Frankly it is a mugs game selling heat pumps, we have stopped offering the due to Government distortion in the market.
Even at the worst case scenario you cite, which isn't in accordance to reality, how do you reckon 90% efficiency is better than 150% ?
@@BTW... Because electricity costs 5 times as much as gas. Simple maths to work out the cost of generating 1Kw of heat in your home.
So here in the States in the rural areas we use propane and it can get really expensive so we put in hybrid systems that use air to air heat pumps down to about 20°, Fahrenheit and then we switch over to the forced air propane furnace. We use a thermostat that's also has an outdoor thermostat and has what they call a balance point setting which is basically where we switch over to gas heat. Some people said it at 32°, some all the way down to 15°, and anything below that you heat with propane. We have also been using spray foam as you said for several years and we use open cell on the roof decking so that even if you get a leak it's no big deal just actually easier to find The leak in a roof because The water will go straight through the open cell foam. All sidewall cavities and foundations we spray with closed cell foam. Then some of us add a thermal break to the inside wall or outside wall or both using 1-in polystyrene with a foil facing and a half inch gap so that you get your radiant barrier. This works especially well on existing roofs where you strip the roof with 2x4s anyway for a steel roof and then fill the gap with 1 in polystyrene foam board with the foil facing up so you get the radiant barrier on your roof. We also have really good water here so some of us use open loop geothermals if we have good wells and we get a 22% federal income tax credit on Geo
10:26 Excuse me but what? First of all, you dont have to dig up all your garden. You drill a hole (bore well) and put the pipes there. That takes about two square meters of space. No large scale digging or big mess. Secondly, what makes you think the heat differential isn't enough. They work here in Finland in -25'C just fine so they woud work in your -8'C as well. Same thing with the air source heat pumps. I installed air source heat pump back in 2007 and it has been heating my 120m2 house since without any problems. We have had several -30'C time periods also and the pump still have worked ok. Of course at those extremely low temperatures it does consume same amount electricity as direct electric heater. Maybe your source of information isn't very good or something....
I’m thinking of going the GSHP route and for me bore holes is the only route but boy are the holes expensive I’m being quoted £14k for three 100 metre holes. So if anyone knows a cheaper way of getting bore holes in SY11 UK happy to hear about it.
I'm 2-3km south of Andy and there are (coal) pit workings underneath us. In the maps I can find online, as of 1892 there were no pits where he is ... but for some reason /sarcasm installers around here want to do a (chargeable) test bore before quoting.
@@chrisbenson1217 Often that is down to effecting the local water table in the local area, we had several schools down south that ended up with carpet GSHP due to the proximity of the local water table to the surface. Andy backs onto a river so I expect the water table around there is quite high and environmental health have to get involved when in that situation for permissions.
Completely agree with the Worcester bosch choice for 2021. Very efficient and quiet and the smart capabilities are excellent. Other technologies are relatively in their infancy and thanks for another great video. 🙂👍
Uhm, Norway here, regular temps down into the -20's, and although the condenser is less efficient it heats my 1920's house (with no extra insulation installed) just fine. Why are you getting just crap condensers that can't even handle -8?!