Something isn't right about the SSL vintage drive plugin.. or is it the SSL fusion hardware?? 🤔
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- ACCESS ANALOG HARDWARE VS DIGITAL PLUGINS | SSL Fusion plugin vs Hardware | SSL vintage drive review
Solid state logic have released their own audio plugin version of their own solid state logic fusion hardware. They have released 2 new audio plugins in the form of the saturation and stereo imager.
So I have decided to compare the analog gear vs plugin via bertom curve analyser, voxengo SPAN and also using audio tests via hofa blind test software.
In this analog hardware vs plugins video. We'll have a look into the frequency response, aliasing, modelled THD and also how these units compare. Hopefully there is enough here for all of you audio engineering geeks to get your teeth into!
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📖 CHAPTERS
0:00 intro
2:00 comparing linear frequency response
4:52 comparing aliasing & harmonic response
10:46 blind test drive at 3
12:30 blind test drive at 5
14:18 blind test drive at 7
15:21 blind test drive at 9
16:26 so how close is the ssl fusion plugin?
22:52 final side by side with tbpro audio gsat+
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FYI
The side harmonics in the fusion hardware is caused by L&R imbalance. I should've explained that better. The plugin is perfect stereo where the fusion hardware has L&R tolerances. SSL themselves admitted that they could have measured multiple units and came up with an average tolerance (or simple added in a TMT style function) This has been proven by other fusion hardware users and is the reason as to why the fluctuation mode of tbsatpro creates side harmonics. The more you fluctuate L&R and create more differences between both channels, the more information goes into your side channel.
So the reason why SSL took the side harmonics so seriously after this video was because it proved that the access analog fusion that is classed as a "mastering grade" unit wasn't actually very well calibrated for mastering use.
The plugin was made to be what the hardware was intended for.. As perfect stereo as possible, but this video showed otherwise so SSL were left in a tough place.
Tbpro audio, access analog and ssl vintage drive links in description 🤓
You have on hardware HPF turned on bro, so no bump in density on hardware because of HPF at 50Hz :D Try another comparsion
Hpf isn't on at 50..its on at 30hz. And that's because the plugins linear frequency response has a built in hpf at 30hz.. Which is what I showed. Maybe watch it again?
Saw someone doing a review on a softube-plugin (Overstayer M-A-S) he was able to show us all the curves and harmonics! Name is Alberto Rizzo Schettino, Video is called:
"Softube Overstayer M.A.S. || Alberto's Master Series". Do you know what plugin he used for the analysis by any chance?
Plugin doctor, same as me
@@PaulThird so the overstayer m-a-s works in PD, but all the others not - or am I missing something here? Even more confusing: I left him a post to ask what he's using, because PD doesn't work on softube for me, but the comment got deleted. What kind of magic is all of this? *edit* downloading it now and trying it for myself. Just retried seeing the other plugins in PD and still didn't work. So maybe it's an exception or something. *edit2* nope, actually straight up CLOSES PD on me. *edit3* had a hunch, that maybe it's because I had the PD Demo, since it always shuts off as soon as you load another plugin. So I bought the full licence, still shutting down on me. *edit4* now I checked wether it may be due to me using a overstayer m-a-s demo and updated my germanium compressor. Well, now the germanium compressor also shuts down the Doctor. *edit5* tried being smart.. loaded the metaplugin in PD and tried loading a softube plugin within the metaplugin.. still closes PD.
It's really incredibile that someone on UA-cam (just no offense ofc) have to do this kind of video to "push" the companies to improve their freaking business... I don't understand it.. thanks Paul for nailed it
Just business init haha
Lets be honest and objective....
These videos of hardware/ software versions are always avoiding reality....
The hardware Fusion is $ 2500...For ONE
unit...
Plugin is $ 200... For MULTIPLE "units".
That goes for all Eq, Compressors, Reverbs, etc...Plugins are 1/15 of the initial hardware cost multiplied by as many as your DAW can handle... Anyone thinking that the Plugin
can and must be as good as the hardware wich is 100 times more expensive is just delusional to start with.
And Plugins are close to beat the hardware in many instances...
I own a Lexicon 960, 480L, 300, a Bricasti, AMS....
The high end recent reverb Plugins are eating them all hands down... For 1/100 of their counter part hardware price....
The reality is that there are lots of plugins that I've shown that can sound practically identical to the hardware and subjectively better in many cases.
So the reality is that it can be done but a hardware manufacturer isn't going to make their plugin sound like their 2.5k hardware. I understand that but many don't and will buy blindly thinking that they are buying a faithful digital recreation of the hardware.
Its been baffling me on this video that the guy that shows whats actually going on, without any bias I may add, is told his videos are pointless when really he's not the one pretending that it's the next best thing to the gear.
"Modelled using a combination of real-life measurements, analogue circuit designs and close collaboration with the original analogue designers of FUSION hardware"
Even their main video with Sean Devine he states that it's based from a module from the fusion hardware, which he has in front of him and also now has access to it in the DAW.
Come on now.. This is why guys like me need to make videos. Because the reason people are buying it is due to the correlation to the hardware. If it doesn't have the main functions of the fusion then don't market it and state that its a digital module of a hardware fusion. That's misleading. Your not buying as advertised in my opinon.
I make videos so you can decide for yourself. This is the hardware, this the plugin. This is what the hardware does, this is what the plugin does. There's the truth now its up to you.
All I'm doing is showcasing the things that the manufacturers should be upfront about.
@@PaulThird " will think they are getting the same as the hardware version blindly buy faithful digital version"...
Exactly my point. Anyone who buys a
$ 500 brand new " Mercedes" version
thinking its the same as the real thing is delusional. And even the best " emulation" plugins are never that close to the real thing. They are always different but can be good for that price.
There are very few ones that can be objectively measured and get a %90
score....
@@robertl.6919 i understand your point but with today technology the "plugins" could sound very close to the hardware instead of begin so crappy. If i have to create an emulation in digital format i will skip the "algo modelling" that's basically"programming the behaviour of input response in a mathematical system and will go for "sampling" the real machine. I understand it's more convenient put out an algo plug and call it a"real-deal" because using Vectorial Volterra Kernels Technology required very high - end convertitors (at least if you want to have a great sample!) and time to capture the convolution of the hardware... With the Vectorial Volterra Kernels Technology you can actually sample the saturation and the phase that the hardware makes.. There is no point at all to continue this "algo-scam" where company play their game calling their product "superior or ultimate real-deal" Vectorial Volterra Kernels Technology basically use "sampled - modelling hardware combined with Deep learning to generate the harmonics based on the utimate data from the snapshot (real impluses)... it's not perfect but it's the very latest technology in the emulation games.. in my opinion..
So glad you did this! I think the low end boost with density combined with no side saturation is why the plug-in felt 2D to me. It was pleasant sounding but a bit muddy and flat.
Yeah that's how I felt. Tbh I've never been big fan of the fusion anyway but the fact the plugin isn't even that made it worse for me
Knew we would get this video. It was just a matter of time. Keep it up, Paul!
🤓🤓
Great video, both of these are on my radar!
Would love for you to test other SSL native plugins agains other brands.
Paul love your videos. I know they will be good. I enjoy the honest approach you have. Keep it up!
Thanks man appreciate it 🤓
I really love these videos Paul. They make me stop wondering if I need to get certain plugins to get a "true" analog sound. In the future I'd love to see a video where you show which plugins that sound awesome. Like a collection of great stuff that YOU (subjectively) would recommend for us who want plugins to emulate a true (as close as possible) analog sound. I know.. if you think it sounds good then it sounds good, and I'm all about that. But now I have 5 different Pultec plugins and I think some of them sound different but sometimes I wonder which one sound closest to an analogue one.. :)
ANALOG HARDWARE VS DIGITAL PLUGINS: ua-cam.com/play/PLmcBOB8VmXMI_rvJtWcGnXpnBbWDK8jQL.html
That's basically all you need to so you can hear all the analog vs digital vids ive done 🤓
@@PaulThird Awesome thanks!
This is interesting Paul. And to be honest, I don't have the listening (hearing issues) ability or technical knowledge to arrive at this conclusion.I don't see why SSL would get their panties in a bunch (at least not on a forum or email) when they can just update the plugin to bring it closer to the hardware. Would love to see how these plugins fair against AA's Fusion emulation. Great work Paul!
This algorithm looks like an old SSL Saturator algo. But without tweaks and without aliasing.
Close enough for me. Good sound for 1/5th of the processing of Celestial. Either way, they'll probably do an update later like all the v2 versions of their plugins.
You are slowly, but surely becoming the full pain in the arse we all knew you can be! Love that you really pushed that little plugin. Love that you added a good plugin-alternative... it indeed sounds better than the fusion to me too. That's an easy like from me - nothing to add.
Surely there's more Gerhard.. There's has to be.... 🤯
Did I just make the perfect video haha 😜
@@PaulThird I'm sure there is, but I don't know it yet! :D
so I know pro tools allows a certain amount of samples before delaying? double checking, wouldn't matter when mixing? looking into this I want to mix into the DAC on the analog matrix but using acustca plugins and some DMG stuff would have my load up there, looking to get another Mac book pro with 64 ram or more to try and do all this ITB with no outboard gear.
Unfortunately there is a massive delay printing access analog in real time. There is an offline mode where you can import a file and process it that way but I've found that there may still be some form of delay so every time I use access analog on an element of a mix I have align it to the original by zooming in to the waveforms and time aligning after printing
@@PaulThird thank you i shall look into it, i did one pass with it on but like what it was doing with the top and bottom as a whole but the delay urgggh! “this is gear that isn’t turnt of” if a manufactured could emulate that for real time like a dither 🙏🏾🙏🏾
Great vid. Do you have the bounced mixes I can listen to. for the life of me, I could not hear the difference. Could be UA-cam related. I'm using Audeze headphones. Thank you.
I'll see if I can put them on soundcloud
Paul, how are you setting up SPAN to show side harmonics? Great video.
I use a preset in SPAN. Can't remember what it's called but it's a mid side preset
Side harmonics for the win! By the way, i tested one interesting distortion plugin i have: Softube Harmonics in "Master" mode, and... OUT OF PHASE SIDE HARMONICS! Yes, left side harmonics are out of phase with right side harmonics. More than that, MID harmonics are only 3rd order, while side harmonics are only 2nd order. Sounds quite interesting! Adds depth at low levels. 🤯
That's why we experiment 🤓
I own the Fusion Hardware and felt exact the way you did in your Test. Fusion HW handels the sides like a charm. I dont think that they make an upgrade to the plugin with side harmonics. The bus comp had an upgrade a few month ago and still doesnt sound like the hardware one. I think the companys make cheap plugins of their hardware often as appertizer to advertise their expensive hardware. The plugins often feel to me like demo-versions of the real deal. Its not only ssl that works like this.
Yeah I'd agree on that one
UAD plug-ins work exactly like this.
I think that when the company is just a modeler and buys a license of name rights or uses a fanciful one, it is more dedicated to precision, especially considering that because they are not so huge, they may have longer terms to emulate the hardware (this increases accuracy) which would be the case of Softube, Brainworx and acustica audio
What was the stereo imaging plug-in you mentioned. I struggled to find something I got along with so have been mid-side EQ’ing in Pro-Q3.
JST sidewinder 🤓
@@PaulThird thanks man! Appreciate your videos. Is your mic the Sony C-100 btw? I was considering it. If it is, how you finding it?
Audio technica AT2050. Had it for like 10 years or something 🤓
Paul's theory - that companies like SSL, who model their own products, intentionally "fail" to make plugins on a par with their analog counterparts - seems to bear out. To neglect to accurately model the density on a Fusion is no small matter. As a Fusion owner, I'm familiar with how critical the density is to dialing in a good drive sound. The manual even states that density radically changes the function of the drive - with settings toward the left (anticlockwise) giving harmonics, and settings to the right yielding compression, with fewer harmonics.
I still think the linear frequency response is a bug in the density. It just seems like really odd behaviour especially with the rippling and the fact that the hardware doesn't have anything close to that behaviour. Dunno if it's something to do with the filter or whatever but it's just not right haha
If it was genuinely intentional then I just dunno what to say haha
@@beyourself9162 what is FLA and BRA? Thanks
Black rooster and fuse labs. Both coded by Reymund who coded all the best PA stuff. Black box, maag, shadow Hills etc
I did mention it and link to the celestial fusion comparison in the video. Do you's all just skip when I talk 😂
ua-cam.com/video/Axs9ynopWsM/v-deo.html
@@Rhuggins Fuse Audio Labs and Black Rooster Audio
How do you handle Acustica and Nebula throwing playback engine errors on Pro Tools? I tend to commit individual track with Acustica/Nebula chains but on Auxes and the Mixbus that is not possible.
Do you mean the CPU?
Yes.
I use freeze up to this insert or commit but tbh my i9 takes a lot for it to crap out on me so Im pretty fortunate but on the i5 it was mostly all freezing so I could have done acustica or nebula on the mixbus
I also have a pre mix session and a mix session so all of the clean up stuff is done on a seperate session and everything is printed as stems so I can go onto the mixing stage and not worry as much about processing
But did you go all the way to test the analog chain without the plugin to eliminate other components as possible sources for these additional (probably ianaudible) harmonics?
Can you explain that a bit better, I don't fully understand what you are asking
are side harmonics not the same as true stereo (proccessing left and right channels separate)?
Yes, left and right differences will cause side harmonics, well if there are harmonics made on both channels obviously.
Great vid. Thanks Paul..
🤓🤓
very interesting comparison! no way of making the plugin windows a tad smaller so that everything fits at once without going crazy switching between one and the other?
i can also recommend the TBProAudio ISOL8 which is a great tool for soloing individual bands of the frequency spectrum, and its free
Is most of their stuff free?
@@PaulThird some of it is, have a look at the website, no annoying sign ups just to get to the downloads. Developer is active on Gearslutz and often implements features requested by the forum guys. What's good is that he's fast to fix any bugs. The big guys could learn a thing or two from him
Do you have these symptoms? I seem to have
problem with SSL FUSION. When I remove the pen
DRIVE counterclockwise, I have
small noise, and in the right channel it
more than on the left! This is clearly seen if
put an L2 limiter on the DAW master section, and
turn the limiter all the way.
I urgently need to find out because my SSL
FUSION is still under warranty!
Class video Paul, nice one!
You've got me down the Plugin Alliance rabbit hole, considering pulling the trigger!
Got to say, thanks so much for the consistently good content - I went full-time earlier this year and your insight has just been invaluable mate. Cheers!
Really glad I can help 🤓
Good job @Paul Third! I am learning alot from these videos. Makes me think that plugin makers should make the controls on the plugins limited to the best operating range (so it doesn't break the sound) or atleast have warning points when its working past its limits.
🤓
TB saturation does something so distinctive personally I love it.
The song you use for testing is beyond jarring. I find it hard to discern saturation elements because it already sounds quite tapey and processed. a cleaner source would show the effects better.
Unfortunately I don't mix very clean haha always adding a lot of colour where possible
@@PaulThird100% agree. I just mean for demonstration purposes something more neutral might show the actual effects better.
Since impulse responses are not algorithms, do such plug-ins produce aliasing?
Yes. Some make harmonics past niquist if you push them really hard. Pensado eq for example produces aliasing if you hit it too hard
The SSL Vintage Drive sounds AMAZING on "MY" Master Bus , so much so that I replaced the Brainworx Blackbox with it in my Master Bus signal chain. Maybe it wouldn't sound as nice in someone else's chain, but I felt like it fits my needs perfectly... it has a smoother distortion with much more warmth than say the harsher Blackbox... so while it might not be a Fusion, it still offers something amazing in a particular situation 😉
And that's all that matters. Im just here to test it vs the hardware.. The rest is up to you guys 🤓
Im loving it on my master bus...braaaa.....if it sounds good it...it sounds good...period!!! Im using that with Elysia Karacter......its a rap....smooth...warm saturation...loving it!!
TRy the upgrade Blackbox HG / MS...pure luxury... SSL Fusion or Black Box Regular cant compete with that...
Ive been using
Varity of Sound
RC 20
And PA Karacter on the beginning of Vitamix bus, before I Eq compression and limit
Then I run that mix through my own Analog Rack...
That Gsat seems cool, definitely gonna give it a shot. :)
😎😎
I'm a scientist in my day job. So I really enjoy your methodical and experimenter bias reducing approach.
So many critical thinking fails and cognitive bias in the audio world. Love you no bullshit approach.
Obviously user your ears is still rule 1. If it sounds good it is good and all that. But that doesn't mean we can't all achieve better mixes with a bit of critical thinking thrown in.
100%. The more you understand your tools and their limitations the more you'll get out of them 🤓
another good vid bud, I couldn't hear any difference until you put the drive at 9 and it really did sound crap. Maybe SSL might update it following this video identifying the shortcomings.
'we'll have a look into it'
I.e. No chance we're making that sound any closer to the hardware 😂
haha, glad I found you in the comment-section. Look at this, the plugin you recommended to me under the last Paul Third Video gets featured in the new one! Initially had a hard time hearing some of the differences too, but as usual you gotta push it to really know it.
@@akagerhard yeah be careful with the odd harmonics, if you max it out it gets ugly really fast
100%.. Noticed that as well with the odd harmonics
@@stupidusername38 I just feel like odd-harmonics tend to get "ugly" faster (even before breaking up). Not gonna lie, thought about trying the Overstayer M-A-S from Softube, but it seems to be just one more great saturation plugin. How many do we really need? I've always thought the blackbox "Triode" knob creates odd harmonics, but plugin doctor says it doesn't. What I know creates odd harmonics though is the "Tape 1" and "Tape 2" option on the Saturator X from IK-Multimedia (has oversampling options). Have been using it a lot in the past, but lately not at all.
Great breakdown!
🤓🤓
Thanks for keeping it real.
🤜🤛
Hi, I really would like to see you mixing a song and your workflow of mixing. You’re always only showing and talking about the results, but never the way.
Is that not essentially what that is
MIXING SESSION WITH PAUL THIRD: ua-cam.com/play/PLmcBOB8VmXMLNCUisz1ixeHBQb5j9AD6m.html
The whole bringer of bad news vibe is classic
The grim reaper of plugins 😂
Hey Paul hope you are doing great! I have a question regarding acustica audio - What would be your consideration for modern top tier production currently plugin wise? I want to get clean sound with a tad of dimension & analog
Titanium is a good start as the tubetech stuff is pretty clean. You get everything tube tech does in that bundle.
I like colour so I tend to sway more to colour but cleaner your probably looking at titanium, sand and their mastering grade stuff so green, ivory etc
Did You try the Acustica Audio Celestial which is Solid State Logic Fusion internet said)?
Did nobody watch this video!! Haha
I now know you's all skip my intros you cheeky buggers! 🤣 Been asked this this 6 times now and I mentioned it at the start and even linked to it 😂
I almost feel like not even copying the link haha 😜
ua-cam.com/video/Axs9ynopWsM/v-deo.html
@@PaulThird I'm sorry) My English is not very good and You have such a cool (no sarcasm) accent, so I try to get main messages from Your videos and no chance to understand everything)
Can you use a mid side encoder/decoder to get the side harmonics?
🤷♂️ You could try it I suppose
@@PaulThird I really don't understand all the tech like cramping and aliasing that's why i love watching your show lol. Does Nebula programs like Tim P Eqs cramp or have aliasing? Keep up the good work.
Nebula libraries have aliasing due to nebula itself but timp manages to keep it under the audible threshold unless you use his clippers which if you don't abuse them wont create audible aliasing.
No eq cramping but pretty sure I've seen it in some acustica plugs
@@PaulThird "Do to nebula itself" what do you mean by that if you don't mind me asking.. I'm trying to understand technical parts of plugins so i know if I'm being snake oiled. If you can do a video on how to use & understand Plugin Dr. that would be great to .. Thanks Again
Nebula is the plugin and the third party developer 'plugins' are actually libraries that are loaded within the nebula plugin. The plugin itself is nebula which doesn't have the greatest anti aliasing which means that the nebula devs need to work around the limitations of it so they can keep the aliasing under the audible threshold where possible . Gives them more work
Few questions what kind of conversion does access analog use, and what is the frequency response of their conversion, additionally how long is their cable run/patching system? Wondering if that accounts for some of the high end tapering, and some of the harmonic variation.
Additionally, the lack of side harmonic randomization doesn't surpise me. I think it's a certainly reasonable to expect variance in tolerance of stereo channels, doesn't surprise me. I doubt it was a malicious decision by SSL to hamper the plugin on this manner, more likely a programming/design oversight. Clearly the hardware is superior in many ways, seems a bit lackadaisical on their part.
I don't understand what is happening on the low end of the plugin, clearly seems like something is not functioning properly, however ; I have seen Plugin Doc do some really wired things, especially when I'm measuring outboard gear... And even sometimes with plugins, Dan Worrell talks about that a bit, but unfortunately I don't have the understanding to comment on why it has unusual measurement behavior.
They use lynx converters. I stream audio lossless
SSL came out and admitted that the density had a bit of DSP code causing the low end bump. It was causing bertom and plugin doctor to show more erratic but they admitred in reality it was as much of a 2db low end bump (when it should have been continuing the hpf) but it was apparently 'too low to hear' 🤔
Then they tried to blame access analog for the stereo variance and admitted that they modelled a single channel of the fusion and used that to make it perfect stereo as the fusion was intended to be a perfectly matched stereo unit.
Then another user posted a youtube video showing his hardware fusion with the same left and right tolerances as access analog.
SSL then stated that it's this unintended behaviour that is the magic of the fusion..
Which ended up in them being wrapped up in their own statements not knowing which side to protect.
Pretty amusing to watch in the end haha
@@PaulThird Lynx are about as flat as they get, I was just curious if that accounted for some of the roll off seen in the video!
I am glad they admitted it's an issue, do they intend to patch it?
I can see their point of view on the fusion not being perfectly matched, though I bet it would be very challenging (impossible?) to find an analog unit that is perfectly matched. I can also understand why they would not want to make each channel slightly different (though TMT from Bx is very popular for that). The tolerances are probably close in HW, but no doubt they are not flawless haha, they don't need to be perfectly matched, that's what gives different analog units wonderful sound. I feel like PR isn't meeting with both HW engineering and design and software at the same time or has mixed messages, they seem a bit confused on what the are trying to communicate.
Keep up the good work on showing what’s the truth
🤓🤓
Oh this was so good!
🤓🤓
Hey, Paul, did you notice that the presets have varying EQ curves? If I'm mistaken let me know.
Probably due to the density but I never tried any presets. Do you mean if you set them the same way but in a different preset they have different curves?
@@PaulThird I opened an instance of Vintage Drive in Plugin Doctor and each producer/mix engineer had a varying EQ curve. I'll have to check if it's related to the density but Michael Brauer's presets for example have a different curve compared to Sean Divine's presets.
Hmmm that's interesting
Paul, your channel is making me rethink my entire approach with plugins and sell everything.. LOL amazing stuff
🤓🤓
The best plugin channel on youtube. Keep it up paul.
🤓🤓🤓
Pulsar Modular P42 Climax next mixing wedensday? They updated it today.
Dunno. Maybe. Still thinking my options
Paul Third great video today. I second this request please. Love how you lay it out! Thank you!
Have you guys both tried it?
excellent!
🤓🤓
Feeling mixed emotions right now!! Glad to see another great informative analysis of plug ins but I’m also gutted that SSL seemed to have played us! I did buy the plug in and it does sound good but as stated in your video, it’s clearly not the fusion!!! I’m gonna email them this video and see what they’ve got to say about that!! It’s false advertising and very misleading!! Ffs 🤦🏾♂️ 🤣
I'd like to see their response 😂
@@PaulThird I’ll forward it to you bro 👍🏾
You guys must not know it’s an emulation
It's a modelled emulation of the drive section of a hardware fusion.
Its directly tried to the fusion hardware
"Modelled using a combination of real-life measurements, analogue circuit designs and close collaboration with the original analogue designers of FUSION hardware"
The definition of emulation is to match something. In computing its the reproduction of the function or action of a system.
Can't really call it an emulation when it doesn't properly emulate the thing its modelling 🤷♂️
The time will come and SSL will sell an update with side harmonics ... maybe in the same year when Waves announces the all-singing, all-dancing oversampling plugins ;-)
That's the day they all send me a letter each with a jobbie in it scribbled in red crayon
'YOU MADE US DO THIS'
😂😂😂
@@PaulThird 😂 😂 😂
Another great vid. I hope you sent this to SSL.
Something tells me they'll find out about it soon enough 😂
Man, SSL could at least include an oversampling option! Why is this not a standard feature now in saturation plugins?? And great to see TBPro getting a boost. They're one of the best-kept audio secrets out there! DSEQ blew my socks off! Cheers.
I dunno I thought the ECO was turning the oversampling off cause with it on.. Aliasing.. With it off no aliasing haha
@@PaulThird Bizarre! Wow, this is really making me rethink SSL products (in my opinion, but I'm not Butch Vig or anything). Good luck with Jimbo!
He apologised on gearslutz but I'm still waiting for the direct apology hes said he'll give me
@@PaulThird He did apologize? OK, that's something. I can understand wanting to challenge your findings, but ad hominem attacks from an industry professional? Sad. I'm not sure how anyone could defend that nasty, gated distortion the plugin made at higher settings...Perhaps I'll read the thread...
You have the best Scottish direct on youtube
🤓🤓
@@PaulThird I’m a voiceover artist in Hollywood. Lewitt LCT 440 on a SSL 2! Fyi
I think I'm sticking with AA Taupe.....ReVox and Studer....Im good....they sound wonderful on masters....add just as much warmth, depth and glue....and a clear way....just as good as the SSL Fusion or Better on a master....
wow....the vintage drive plugin....is sooooo close....this a great addition plugin with Karacter...or Krammer Tape....AVOX WARM or Baby Audio TAIP
Yeee woohoo hmmm, Neve portico mb next?
If I was to ever has access to one maybe haha
@@PaulThird fingers crossed, hey Paul how your headphone amp comparing to your new id44? Is it still better? Is an external amp 'always' better?
Yup still prefer the topping over the id44 headphone amp. ID44 is better than the id14 but not better than the topping for me
Its hard to generalise it as I can only speak from my experience with 2 interfaces and 1 headphone amp.
Interesting I tried this plugin to see if I could save money and not buy the fusion and had a really hard time hearing it do anything at all unless you crank it. Nice to see some evidence I was right 🤣
bro thank you so much for. your videos I try it my self and did not like it and I came to your Chanel to find the video cause I knew your video was going to be good , hope if SSL decides to update there Plugin hope we can get and update video from you that will be awesome , SSL probably super piss at you right now hahahaha thank you my brother
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@@PaulThird Pual they maybe going to say that we need to use the stereo imager plugin with the plugin lol or something like that
Probably release the EQ and comp seperate in a couple of months
@@PaulThird Yea probably they will . -Paul thank you 🙏🏽 again for your work your research and for sharing your knowledge. With us
Here´s a suggestion for future videos. When I watch comparisons like this I always thought "yes, it´s not there 100% but what if I add plugin X, Y and Z afterwards, then it´s much closer". I know it´s not the purpose when comparing a dedicated emulation to use 1-3 plugins afterwards but I think for the mixer it could be quite interesting to know that some combinations of tools can achieve a tone from a specific hardware.
Often I think that a touch of saturation focused on the lows to mids, a transient shaper boost with Elysia Nvelope or OEK Spiff in the region of the snare fundamental and some gentle attenuation of the highs with a dynamic tool like dynamic eq or Soothe 2 could get us to the 90 to 95% similarity.
It's something I could think about incorporating into a future video talking about maybe 2 or 3 emulations but I just don't have the time to do it on every video unfortunately. I'm extremely stretched for time just doing it the way I do it haha but definitely an idea for a singular video 🤓
Hardware is generally better,but if your experienced enough to know what to add to plug ins you can make it work
haha. Love this truth to power shizz. keep it up.
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Difference is negligible in Apple AirPods Pro. It would be nonsense that ssl would do a replica of the ssl fusion drive knob in plugin form, it would kill their hardware product on spot. Plugins are approximations of hardware, some more accurate than others at the expense higher cpu. I personally don’t bother with these kind of videos and rely on my ears, and I happily use many plugins in my mixes (same as everybody else including high end mixing engineers) but this came up in my feed and triggered my curiosity as I know your videos take the classic “snake oil” approach against plugin makers that many people seem to enjoy, unless it’s an acústica audio plugin of course ;)
I just think it's important to show what's actually going on under the hood of plugins so others have a better understanding of the tool itself
The issue is many believe that endorsed plugins are genuine faithful plugin emulations of the gear itself. Obviously we think logically but many don't and blindly trust the manufacturers so for them I feel its very important to show what's actually going on
They never said it was 100 percent the same as hardware. Acustica waves uad is also the same.
Where did SSL say that?
I could listen to that accent all day. It's on sale right now, and I've demo'd it. It's not bad at all. Maybe not 'SSL good' but perhaps a decent channel plugin for that additive effect (sorta like the VCC).
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Paul "aliasing" Third
Haha somebody's gotta talk about it 😂
@@PaulThird I bet if you make a video going over plugs without aliasing and make it like a series as you come up with new found non aliasing plugins it will be a hit... Perhaps your most viewed video... But what the hell do I know about anything 🤠
I'm spitballing ideas haha
In the last test, the Fusion plugin did the best 2D.
I’m eating” Meat and Potatoes “ right now! Because Paul has given it to me👍👍 I was a vegetarian but Paul has given so much Meat and Potatoes as to what’s with these plug-ins, I changed my diet!!
There is plenty more to digest!!
I own the SSL Fusion and the plugin. The love the hardware version but I am definitely aware the Hardware and the Software don't sound the same. I am wondering if they will be bring the individual modules out on 500 series.
it needs compare with AA celestial
It makes me sad that I mentioned it and even linked it in the video. Do yous all just skip my talking? 😂
ua-cam.com/video/Axs9ynopWsM/v-deo.html
@@PaulThird oops, I drop to blind test
Looks like Jim at SSL isn't your biggest fan. "Because I’m fresh off another thread where someone on the internet with a graph thinks they know more about our products than we do.
SSL releases Native V6 plug-ins
From post 1222
The chap in the video looks nice and it is well presented but I have reservations about his methodology, his understanding of how the circuit works, and his suggestion that we deliberately attempt to sell crippleware. Who is Paul Third and what experience does he really have to be the final arbiter on the importance of side-harmonics? His linkedin profile suggests serious experience in the UK carpet and tiling retail industries.
Fusion is a stereo processor. He says it works well in stereo.
Some of his points are indeed interesting, but others are well off the mark.
At least you all know who I am despite my lack of UA-cam channel, Patreon page, and voucher deals from Access Analogue" - Gearslutz thread
Don't worry. I'm handling it the way I normally handle these things. Stay tuned 🤓
@@PaulThird again, its all a learning experience. His other response was very detailed. Over my head i've got to say.
Words and words. Hopefully my response will get some action.
The day you stop saying "hellooo everyone" I will cancel my subscription. Keep up the good work. I love it.
Haha a few people told me to stop it but they are too outweighed by the 'hello everyone' army 😂
@@PaulThird And when your channel celebrates an anniversary, please edit all the intros into one video. Then the community drinks a nice Scotch whisky and we laugh ourselves to death together.
seems like the hardware is far cleaner than the plugin. The linear response isn't altered massively when driven.
We would have done it the same way
Done what the same way?
@@PaulThirdwe would have done the review in the same way as you've approached
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Good man PT -Takeing nae prisoners as Sauchtons full and aliasing like a *****
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What about this: Using the plugin in an M/S-context, applying it two times, on the mid and on the side. Should be like the hardware then. Anyway, best would be if there was a real plugin-alternative for the fusion, at least for the vintage drive, but still I dont see any saturation tool that does the exact same thing, not even a combination of two three plugins, or nobody did find out so far..
Id imagine the melda saturation would do it as you have pretty much full control of exactly how much orders of saturation you add.
hmm thats in sale right now :)) on gearsluts some guys said that the overstayer goes more or less in the same direction, but I havent checked it out. Thanks Paul!!
Dry sounds best to me anyway.
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You do know that digital won't ever be the same as analog due to aliasing effects. The low end build up is very much because of the nature of digital sampling itself. Typically frequencies above 12 kHz cause different harmonics being generated at lower octaves versus where the analog counterparts would be.
Not to mention that typically the SSL plugins aren't actually supposed to sound like the real hardware. They do give the same functionality or something similar to it.
Still I guess nice review.
But there's no aliasing in the fusion unless it's abused. In realistic settings you won't have an issue. Many modern plugs have anti aliasing and as long as it's kept under the audible threshold you won't have an issue. Much like noise.
Many plugins do make audible aliasing though which agreed isn't the hardware but not all plugins create audible aliasing unless pushed beyond its limits which isn't how you'd use the hardware anyway.
Its all about how it's managed. TimP is the master of nailing and bettering analog in my personal opinion when using it realistically and his nebula libraries alias but is kept inaudible unless the optional clippers are abused
To add to this. I have done my own test and I didn't see the same low end behavior you saw.
Furthermore running the same test at higher sample rates yield wildly different test results.
Ssl confirmed it themselves. There's an unintended low bump in the plugin caused by their code. I know now that this code was breaking the linear test where it was showing more erratic but ssl confirmed that the code error was still causing a 2db low bump where it was meant to keep the lpf in tact and roll off those lows like the hardware.
Most likely I imagine they'll fix it in the next update
@@PaulThird I see. They might have fixed it already because I didn't see that behavior in my tests. There could also be a difference between VST/AU and AAX. I am on Pro Tools so that could be a factor as well.
Either way I played around with it for a bit, used it on a mix but don't see myself using it often. I do mix through an SSL Origin so I am sure that is a factor as well.
I am pretty anal about aliasing. I hear it clearly when working in 44.1. 88.2 is something I can live with but still hear aliasing effects when working with 2-bus processing.
Overall though none of the SSL plugins sound like their analog counterparts. They very much lack the mojo. The functionality is all there though. End up using X-EQ the most.
Man, never thought SSL could be this snake oil…
S'all bout the money money moneyyyy 🤑🤑 haha
I think there's a limit to the digital realm for plugins which makes it impossible to replicate a hardware. With that being said, if ever they reach the 1:1 clone ratio for the hardware... would people buy the plugin for the same price as the hardware? Knowing some people can only just buy plugins for it's price, I don't think having a plugin that 100% sounds like the hardware should be a great idea anyway. Thus, making hardware the elite gear for audio prod
Tbh hardware is mostly all about the aesthetics these days. Looks cooler and makes people look more professional than others. I've got access to a crap ton of gear and never get the urge to use it.
I was in a studio last week. Tube tech gear, amek console etc.. All ITB mixing. Said the same thing as many others.. "looks cool though eh" haha
The analog gear phenomenon is more of a mental thing than a sonic thing in today's world. There's an investment in gear that causes a cognitive bias and a history that makes people feel that it's the missing puzzle to being a pro.
You just need to like at guys like Jaycen Joshua, Scheps, Serban ghenea and tons of others to know that analog gear isn't the missing ingredient of a pro mix
if you want analog sound in your daw..just put tim pethericks tape on your tracks
I do have Tim's J37 but it's a lot of instances needed.. my metaplugin preset is quite impressive haha
@@PaulThird i dont know about the j, but for the money t tape is gold...apart nebula
The J37 tape machines were used in Abbey Road but Tim's is a modded one he sampled at raw state if I'm right
j is on the list for sure, no other plugin offered me what t tape does from the whole nebula,acustica and algo world...no preamps and other analog emulations needed but it is all about choices
You can buy a brand new range rover for 60k and another brand new model for 230k they both look the same but performance is different thats what hardware vs plugin situation is these companies make stuff for everyone because they know not everyone can afford hardware i have the hardware linked with c2 bus compressor and two pultecs on my master bus im not a professional mixer but i couldn't get the sound with plugins i might be able to but maybe after 10 years of mixing experience
I think the issue is offering something that can easily be made better but refusing not to. The side harmonics wouldnt cost any more money. Its been a purposefully made choice. I get when you are talking a car with extremely more expensive parts but when it comes to code it's just a case of coding it better and adding in things or removing certain aspects.
Big difference to me
@@PaulThird i agree with you but its about business this plugin does what it does but then next year it'll be mid side mode black knobs added mode ssl transformers mode ect list goes on they are robbing young kids because young people are not smart with money and guess what most the guys that are teaching mixing online promote every single plugin n say its the best lol someone needs to tell these people that 10 plugin emulations of la2a wont make any difference just buy 1 and make it work thats y i like hardware i dont have many options
Yeah I can agree with that. The tape plugins are killing me just now. Nobody needs another tape plugin.. Nobody!! Haha
@@PaulThird 🤣🤣🤣🤣 i like your videos man you go on the technical side when it comes to explaining stuff ive bought many plugins in the past that i feel like are waste of money. ive bought some very expensive hardware gear and theres not a single unit that i regret buying keep doing good work brother you are helping people by leading them to right path 👍
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Remember to check out my autism channel if you want to learn more about my life 🤓
Thanks Paul, didn’t realise but will check this out
Thanks man 🤓
Times are ready for you to start the BIG DEALS:
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INVESTIGATE THE DAWs.
There's been papers and studies done already. The differences are extremely minimal. Even Harrison mixbus has like a -115 db null or something like that with studio 1 haha
@@PaulThird 🤣😂 ok, no energies on that!
The old ssl drive plugin sounds better to me. Tried the new fusion and thought it was shit too.
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plugin sounds like.......plugin
The customer don’t give a shit. Can’t tell any difference what so ever.
that's "a vibe". Well, I think of it like this: These things add up.. both per plugin and per time. Using one (or two) sub-par plugin you can get away with - even on the masterbus. What's hard to get away with is loads of sub-par plugins all over the mix. Also listening to one track that is annoying to the ear in subtler ways doesn't make you turn off the music.. a whole album is a different beast and listening to the song on repeat is too. I know: nowadays it's not albums, it's playlists - but I think listening on repeat is probably still a thing, right?
your right.the differences between analogue and digital is the"ART" that's what going to make you peace.
It really shouldn't be a surprise that SSL or any other hardware manufacturer wouldn't try and make a 100% accurate emulation of their products... other developers haven't reached that stage yet so why purposely cripple your core business? In fact, SSL has endorsed a bunch of developers products even though they aren't accurate either... if it has the "SSL sound" it makes sense to license your brand so you get a cut of the ££ for a product that would've been released regardless but with an alternate name. This Fusion Drive does fall apart when completely pushed, but I imagine it was more about getting the "SSL sound" at levels you're actually likely to use - add the badge and they're "quids in" 😁 I agree that it's over priced... if they had released the entire Fusion set of tools as a plugin I could see parting with that sort of money.
I know but..
Modelled using a combination of real-life measurements, analogue circuit designs and close collaboration with the original analogue designers of FUSION hardware
That stuff pisses me off haha honestly there are loads of guys out there that will pay the money as they believe it's a direct digital emulation due to the marketing. To us it's logical they won't sound the same from a business aspect but I know not everyone sees it that way haha
so you are basically saying it shouldn't come as a surprise that entrepreneurs are not interested in delivering quality, they are just interested in selling the product. Also you are saying that it shouldn't come as a surprise that entrepreneurs don't care about truthful marketing, because they are only interested in selling the product. While I agree that this is becoming common practice, this has not always been the case. Especially older big names, like SSL, once took great pride in developing the best product possible.
Yes, they are "using" their name to sell products now. But let's see wether they are not actually hurting their name, which will keep them from selling products in the future. Even in business there can be value in truth and quality.. I believe they are simply counting on their customers to be stupid and deaf - without the option to compare. And to ME it IS still an ongoing surprise, that big names are not afraid to throw away the reputation they once worked so hard for.
@@PaulThird I agree the "badge" doesn't mean anything without the pedigree being obvious. They certainly have an advantage over other developers who usually have to reverse engineer everything - but there's no question the marketing department are in charge of this project. Making two plugins from one unit is like making two films from one book (looking at you Potter!). I have an SSL Xlogic channel with the variable harmonics drive (VHD) which I suspect is similar to the Fusion Drive - again, why re-invent the wheel... just put it in a shiny new box!
@@akagerhard I don't think SSL are necessarily misleading... as long as we have the chance to demo a product it's up to us if we want to pay for the "brand". They haven't claimed to model every component or any such nonsense... but they will also make sure it sounds like their hardware before they put their name on it. Digital and analogue headroom are two different beasts so it's no surprise that the plugin's reaction to being severely overdriven is different than the hardware - the goal is to offer an inexpensive taste of the SSL sound and by all accounts they have. Ultimately the big mixing desk companies need other streams of revenue to survive because the industry has changed so much... if this marketing keeps them going then I'm all for it... no one wants to see a company like SSL go out of business because Brainworx or Waves has made SSL plugins that are as good as SSL hardware - and it's not in SSL's interest to put their hardware out of business with software.
Yeah the Harry Potter thing pissed me off as well 😂
The plugin lacks oversampling, therefore it's already snake oil.
It does actually have oversampling on as default haha the eco button in the bottom right switches it off
@@PaulThird Maybe it has x2 oversampling instead of x4 as the max or more. Maybe can be saved through DDMF metaplugin and setting it to x8.
What a nonsense, those aren't "side harmonics" on the hardware, this is the raising noise floor of the hardware.
Of course there is side harmonics. There is a left and right mismatch on the hardware which means that harmonic content differs from left and right. It's not perfect stereo like the plugin.
Perfect stereo is summed to your mid channel. Any differences from L+R go into your side channel.. Thus side harmonics. It's that simple really
You'll never get aliasing in analog hardware though...
Yes, who said you would?
@@PaulThird In your video you say around 4:50 that the hardware won’t alias because of its headroom. But my understanding is that aliasing isn’t a issue of headroom (as digital can have quite a lot of headroom) but rather that of sample rate and nyquist frequency.
That's because access analogs A>D conversion can crap out and cause aliasing. That's what I mean by headroom as some units can cause access analogs conversion to alias due to overloading where the fusion has a lot of headroom. If the signal being fed out from the converters is too hot it can distort the A>D side of it as the signal needs to be converted back to a digital signal to be streamed back to the daw. If that's overloaded it can cause high order distortion and as being a digital signal at that point can cause aliasing due to there being sample rates involved
@@PaulThird aha… got it…. My misunderstanding. Thanks.
SSL FUSION is not popular amongst mastering but mixing engineers , drive is too noisy for mastering
Just found out a way to avoid "Having to afford this for everyone watching this
Acustica Audio's
Jam (Mulit Modern High End Saturation about 6 Different Units 18 Core Live Analog Sampled) - Including Elysia Karacter Fatso Loop Trotter SA2URATE and others
ASH (Muli Modern High End Clipper about 6 to 7 Units 18 Core Live Analog Sampled - Including BetterMaker Analog Limiter and others....
On Sale Total $260 for $150,000 worth of High End Saturation and Limiting Units....
Opposed to
RND Portico
1 Saturation for Mastering
A compressor that to Agressive in my opinion
And very little EQing...options for a grand total of almost $5000
Why would you do it....LMAO 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Man i just don't care how close it souds if it sounds good...and for me it does the job very well.The SSL bundle is one of the best on the market along with PA.obs.people need to stop doing this kind of comparison,plugins is different from analogue gear mathemacaly speaking.Aonalogue gear is like driving car on a dirty road and plugins on a hightway.
But then why market it as a fusion? Why not market it as something completely different.
The issue is that plugins can sound near identical to hardware, and even better in some cases. I've shown it on this channel many times. So the whole 'what's the point in even trying' is absolutely redundant in this modern day.
The truth is SSL could have added in the side harmonics. Just coded it into the algorithm. They could have kept the density linear response flat and guess what.. You would have had a pretty close comparison where I was actually saying.. Sounds so close to the gear and guess what.. Everybody would have been like..
Yup that's why i buy SSL.
But when it's the opposite it's OK to sell something that is marketed to sound like a real piece of gear by the manufacturer themself, when in reality they have made the purposeful decision not to do that.
Id get it if they had thrown the kitchen sink at it but to purposely make it so that it doesn't do as marketed.. Thats just not OK.
Man..i purchased the hardware last month...and then they do this plugin shit! GTFOH!
Least it doesn't sound like the hardware 😂
Once again... Convolution is superior in emulation !! These company thing we fool lol maybe we don't have 5k hardware but ffs if you are SSL make your freaking plugins identical to your hardware or just get lost 😂😂😆
There's a guy I blocked from the channel in December cause he was claiming that I worked for acustica and just wouldn't stop trolling. He's now going about on other ssl videos calling me stupid because I complained that this isn't like the hardware. How dare I expect that an endorsed plugin actually sounds like the hardware 🤣
In his own words.. 'SSL do not want their plugins to be equal to their hardware. That would make no sense. If you want hardware, buy it' ..
Suppose that makes it OK then 😂
You just cant win these days 🙃🙃🙃🙃
@@PaulThird i think i encountered that guy 😂 ffs none work for acustica they are like literally 4/5 dudes form Italy make collaboration, people can't face the facts... Algo plugs sounds shit! They are just versatile tools but sounds crap to my ears
@@PaulThird I actually bought the ssl channel, bus channel comp, and eq because I thought it would give me 80% or more of the sound that the hardware would get.
But with how good the Timp and cupwise sound. Those are a better value.
Maybe companies can make plugins that sound like 90% of the hardware and just charge more?
Tbh the plugs that have gotten the closest for me is convolution. To the point I actually prefer it over the gear in many cases. Only endorsed plugin I've heard that really does sound awesome is the softube Mike-e.. That thing sounds incredible to the point I actually prefer it to a hardware distressor BUT I dunno if its better than the actual Mike-e hardwares
Please make it stop. It's already dead.
Why have I got an image of me beating a fish to death now 😂
you have the PUNCHIEST sounding voice ever
Nah I'm just boomy haha
So where’s the actual hardware unit in this video.
Access analog is the real fusion. It's not an emulation. It's an SSL fusion streamed lossless over the Internet
accessanalog.com/product/ssl-fusion/