Test Driving A Second Gen Nissan LEAF 40kWh! Shopping For The Best Used EV Under $25,000
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Max is back with another episode in our search for the best used electric car for under $25,000. Will we end up picking the second generation Nissan Leaf (40kWh) as the best option? Watch to find out.
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0:00 Intro and Walkaround
6:17 Charging and Battery Degradation
9:52 Driving Impressions
20:34 Used Buyer's Guide
#nissan #leaf #ev - Авто та транспорт
I have a first generation, 2013, with a second gen 62kWh battery. This is the ultimate cheap BEV. The Leading Environmental Affordable Family car becomes a completely different animal with a 62kWh battery. Never buy a LEAF that is not an SL…every extra option is worth it.
cool. what did you do to match the 62kwh battery to the 2013 computer?
Just shows how much power density has improved immensely.
Edit: I'm not 100% sure, but I think the 2013 computer just accepts the modern battery with zero issues. Respect to Nissan from the Carlos Ghosn years.
Always buy top trim. Sure there might be some garbage you don’t need.
I find I’ve always gotten my money back at the end when I sell.
This is all cars not just EV.
The only things I might skip are leather (shows wear), convertible, performance trims are optional (sometimes the ride is terrible) but usually add essentially zero net ownership cost
Are you in US how much was the swap
Sixty thousand miles is not high mileage, a hundred thousand is. The battery is not degraded, it is cold. Cold batteries cut range. In addition more energy is needed to heat the interior. As the battery warms the range increases. My summer range is over 160 miles and the winter range is about 135. So the EPA 150 miles represents a nice average. Final comment is the interior is not Versa quality. The car costs twice as much as a Versa and the quality reflects that. It is better than the Bolt and has better seats than the more costly Tesla Model 3. It is a great highly maneuverable daily driver. I do not use mine for long trips, I have a gas car that covers that use very well.
That bump in the rear floor is not to house more batteries, it houses the master shutoff switch. The 60 kwhr LEAF packed the batteries more efficiently and also were a little bit taller. I also think the raised hump provided extra stiffening for the floor pan.
I do agree. And a fully loaded SL is a very different experience. And although I agree with you that 60,000 miles is not high mileage, I was fortunate to find a one owner 2018 SL with only 17,000 miles. $19k :)
I've been pinching myself driving around in a much nicer car than I perceived a Bolt or Leaf to be.
Resistive heating does NOT degrade battery, it just uses more energy than a heat pump to warm the interior to the same temperature.
Exactly. And most heater (not sure for the LEAF) consume max 6kW. This is nothing compared to the power used to move the vehicle.
Okay, reduced range is not battery degradation. The Guess-O-Meter calculates range from previous driving, climate settings and outside temp. The Leaf does have battery health bars on both gens though. Best way to tell degradation run it down to 50% from full and see how many kWh's are used and x2.
or the battery going out of balance which can be fixed nissan can do it or you can do it yourself with the leaf if you want to the key is you run the main high voltage battery till it's done the car won't move then plug it in to charge and that will balance the battery out pretty good it's battery maintenance to increase battery life and it can increase battery range a little you won't get all the battery's range back but you may get a little bit back by doing this once a year
the2018 X model gives me 7km per kwh
Still enjoying the bargain hunting series, bolt still wins thus far imo. The range just kills everything else that you've shown.
yeah specially if you live in a climate with winters as the cold will cripple the range accuracy for the battery gauge I hate that part in a leaf were you'll go down to no range in a minute or two in cold Canadian winters my bmw i3s does not loose range from the cold taking it down to zero on the gauge in a minute or two it stays accurate even in the cold weather
@@raven4k998 check out EV enhanced company's project in New Zealand, buying a 2018 leaf then replacing the battery for a new one with temperature management option will be amazing.
I am enjoying this series. Nice to see more affordable evs not just teslas and the like.
Here are my 2 centw that I think can improve the series.
1. For who is the ev designed, what kind of usage. For example the leaf is a great ev but the battery cooling means it is better for daily driving in a city rather than road trips.
2. Expectations. Charging in a home, or outside, how long? If road trip, pick two cities and give an idea of how many stops for charging and for how long.
3. No need to repeat or shying off with the "it's nerdy talk". Rather, just explain to your audience in simpler terms what it means. Help us understand, we're watching the video so we do want to know something about the car we can use on others.
Actually, that’s the third generation. There were major changes in 2015 or so, they just didn’t effect the LOOK
Kyle is too loud and speaks non stop. I think that I enjoy the calmness in your voice
I was thinking the opposite. Love Kyle’s energy. This guy puts me to sleep. Can’t even make it to the end of his videos.
Good review! I've owned the IDENTICAL car (all-black, cloth seats, 2018, S trim with charge and all-weather packages). Just two notes:
- Your estimate of battery health at 61% SoC, estimated 77 mi remaining is a little skewed. You have the heater on and eco mode off, which automatically knocks your guesstimated range down by about 7%. Also, you don't know if the last few miles of driving (which calibrates the guessometer) were efficient or not. If my car (~30k mileage) was driven on the freeway with heater blasting, I'd expected guesstimated full range of ~130 mi. If driven efficiently at slower speeds, ~150 mi.
- Agree, 40kWh Leaf (Leaves?) are not great for road trips. Not ONLY because CHAdeMO is slow and battery is not cooled well, also because, well, good luck finding enough (functioning and available) CHAdeMO chargers in the right places along your route!
With that said, anyone in the Western PA region want to buy my Leaf in January 2023? No joke. Message me. We've loved it but are upgrading.
Are there no adapters for this type of charger plug?
@@citedcanvas85 I don’t think so, and our reviewer does not seem to be aware of any either (in one of his comment replies).
I don't think there are any adapters. if there are any , They're probably suspect.. not approved.
We have 2 2019 Leaf Pluses. They are our only cars including road trips. We reasonably often do nearly 600 mile days, and while battery does get hot, it's very doable. Chademo support continues to improve.
The Leaf is much nicer than a Versa. Most Chargepoints are still one to one with ccs
The cool thing about the S is that is has a CD player.
Does it have any battery capacity loss yet? I am just curious. It looks like the 2018+ batteries last longer than the older ones.
@@tterbo128 if you go by Leafspy, one battery is at 91% the other at 92.4% after 3+ years.
@@douglasalanthompson That's great. That's a little better than mine was at 3 years, in 2020. I'm not sure. I got my replacement Leaf battery in the summer of 2017. I remember it sat at 100% or upper 90s for a year or two.
You cannot say anything about degradation by looking at mileages left compared to charging percentage. A better way is to use an bluetooth ODB2 plug together with Leafspy on your phone. From the app you get the degradation information and lots more. Always do this before buying a second hand Leaf. I do not know how much more degradation one gets with an air cooled battery. Every electric car has some battery degradation. I also think that an air cooled battery has more disadvantage in hot climates. The battery pack of a Leaf does have battery heating functionality.
Second generation not only looks like a normal car but also has decent leg room in the rear, really improved luggage room in the hatch, very comfortable seats.
I’m loving these “value” reviews!
Thank you for the buyer's guide. I want to buy an EV but I just don't want to spend so much, despite the tax credit. So as an alternative to newer more exciting EVs, I'm thinking about going for pure practicality. The second generation Leafs definitely fit this bill and my state also offers additional tax credit for buying an used EV.
My 2019 Hyundai Ioniq gets 125-154 miles range with a 28 Kilowatt battery.
I squeezed 120 miles out of my 24kWh 2013 Leaf, but that wasn't at 70mph.
Same like mine , fully charged shows 149 miles range. Very happy with my Ioniq!
check my video I did a range test in my ioniq
On the Ivy Charging network in Ontario, most CHAdeMO plugs now have a Tesla adapter on them.
E-Golf has 100 kW motor from 2017. E-Golf is a compliance car but a very nice one.
he may get that range back or some of it back if he ran the battery down to empty done and then charged the car back up on the granny charger to rebalance the battery pack but he would have to run it completely down to it will not move at all before recharging
Very informative review!
If you count a Toyota Mirai as an EV, those are quite cheap right now in California as all the leases expire. Can find a good one for 15k. I was even able to find a couple of Hyundai Nexo within 25k. Would be great to see you try one of those next
Or just buy a 2023 Bolt for 26k in Jan and get 7.5k back and another 2.5k Colorado state incentive. I know some states don't get incentives but still a new bolt for 20k
The $7500 very well may be half that. We just don't know yet. I sure hope so as I'm in the market to trade my 2017 for a 2023. :)
Enjoying the reviews of the not so often talked about ev’s that have been around for nearly a decade, keep them coming.
Air cooled should fair better in colder climates. Cooling it off with hot air in warmer climates could be rough though. I don't have a newer Leaf though to say for sure. My 2011 Leaf with a 2017 battery has a little over 82% battery capacity Leaf.
Not if you have to use climate control in the cabin more without a heat pump. As I understand it the resistive heating drawing current from the battery will impact the driving range a lot more, and possibly battery health, than if the battery wasn't relying on ambient temperatures.
The Leaf battery doesn’t have forced air cooling though, it’s literally just ambient air. Cold climates will also cause issues with the Leaf because it also has no way to heat the battery. Cold temperatures can be just as bad for battery performance and longevity as hot temperatures, but there are far more areas where people live and experience very low temperatures than those that experience very high temperatures.
@@ouch1011 Leaf battery has warmers built into it, just not coolers.
@@getoffamylan6844 the early Leafs in very cold climates had the least degradation. Estonia, UK, Scotland, Canada even Early Leafs did well. The 2018+ battery is better and much more resilient to heat. I often multi DC my Leafs in road trips, and both 2019s are still in low 90s for SoH. My neighbor's 1 1/2 year old model Y has seen similar loss.
Pretty much agree with your assessment of the Leaf. It could be a contender if not for the air cooled battery and chademo.
I wouldn't pay more than 15k for one, which is better than the eGolf.
Bolt still wins hands down.
What's left to compare it to? Fiat 500e is only slightly better than the eGolf.
Smart for 2 is what old people think of when they think of EVs: a golf cart.
Maybe you'll get lucky and see an old Model 3 for under 25k, but I doubt it. Even when I got my Bolt for 15k the Teslas were over 20k.
The Ford Focus EV might be good, I don't know anything about them. Are there any Rav4 EVs out around still? Or maybe a converted car for under $20k?
The 500e isn’t really any better than the e-golf, liquid cooled battery but it doesn’t have dcfc do it really doesn’t matter much
I'm impressed by how quiet the car is inside.
I just got my e-Golf up to 85 mph on the highway. E-Golf handily beats most cars to 30 mph, though it is very easy to spin Eco tires.
The resistive heater draws a tiny fraction of the power the motor does, it is not itself a factor in battery degradation. Battery degradation is dependent on many things, not just whether it has a temperature management system. The chemistry of a battery can make it more or less dependent on temperature, and also on age which degrades all lithium batteries regardless of use. The temperature management system for the battery itself consumes energy and reduces the range of a vehicle so a larger battery is required, plus the maintenance, reliability and cost of that system. In climates with extreme temperatures the energy required to control the battery temperature is considerable, and chemistries that are less sensitive to temperature may be a better investment than temperature management systems for the battery.
The hump in the floor is where the high voltage battery disconnect is located
Had a Leaf and had trouble charging at EA stations because they setup their stations for charge ports on left or right side of cars.
I've had the same issue with local chargers. They are all setup between spaces rather than on the curb and the chademo cords barely reach past the concrete pylons keeping you from running into the chargers. I have to take 2 spaces and park sideways to use the chargers.
Buuuuut... CHADEMO natively supports bi-directional charging for V2G/V2H... Also, the only true way to know the battery degradation is by plugging in with leafspy, you can't trust the GOM to give you that measurement... changing my tires to non LRR affected my range way more than battery degradation... I've also never really had issues finding CHADEMO ports, there's still plentiful out there...
I wish I came across this series last month. I was looking into getting a used EV in this price range and ended up settling on a 2019 Leaf SV.
Options were limited in my region here in Texas, but I think I got a pretty fair price looking at what is shown here.
$17k before tax with just under 50k miles.
Initially I was considering a 2019 Kona EV buyback around $22k, and then an 2019 Ioniq around $19k, both out of state.
Bolts in my area were just over $20k, but in retrospect I probably should have paid extra for it.
I didn't know how much the current Leaf's shared in design with the original models, with even the rusting strut mount issue still being a thing as water can just pool in that area.
At 100% battery I'm getting around 130 mile guesstimated range, so slight degrdation already, LeafSpy says it's 89% State of Health iirc.
Fortunately finding Chademo chargers in my area isn't a problem, but there are more CCS options, and it being Texas it seems like going to the next major city may or may not be a problem with the limited fast charging situation.
In the end I think it's mostly fine for me, but I probably won't keep this car long term like I did with my Corolla at 8 years before finally moving on. I'll try to pay it off quickly and get something newer.
leaf is amazing. it's giving me weekly commute range and that's great
There are firms which will change your Chademo to a CCS setup.
How can you make sure of tax credit before actual purchase? Still 4k?
Why not buy a $25,900 new base model Bolt EV?
Because this is a series on buying a “used” EV.
Hoping you will find a used Kia Soul EV to compare to the others.
Are any adapters made to bypass the need for the odd receptacle?
Different communication protocols on ChaDeMo vs CCS - so any adapter would need active hardware to translate so the car's computer and charger could handshake. I'm not aware of any such adapters on the market but most DCFC stations do have at least one ChaDeMo plug.
Is there a CHAedMo to CCS adapter?
is there a way to swap out chademo with CCS port?
Muxsan offers a "CCS Fast Charging Upgrade” that is installed inplace of AC charging connector (but leaves CHAdeMO connector still functional in car). I have discouraged customers from this due to even higher rapid gate & quicker battery degradation issues due to lack of active thermal management systems in these Leafs.
Can you review PHEV's like Audi A3 etron and BMW 330e which can be had for $25k and will qualify for the credit.
Made in the US?
@@TristenHernandez not required for the used EV credit.
ONE DC fast charge per day? Not our experience. Your first is what you start with, then your second is normal charge speed, third will start to slow a bit depending on how fast you drive. Yes, KYLE will only get 1 charge because, well, Kyle. This car will easily do 400+ mile trips @80°F and 60 mph with only a few minutes lost to "rapidgating". "Disappearing CHAdeMO" is one of the Big Lies in the UA-cam EV world - US gov't has website with DCFC counts; CHAdeMO is still going up; just at a slower rate than CCS. We have Leaf and Mach-e; guess which one is harder to charge?
I like this guy 👍
Good video. I think the first gen Leaf looks better than this one imo.
Your the first person online I've seen say that 😂. Coming from someone who used to own a first generation LEAF and would defend its looks to people.
Great job Max - more of this, please.
Is autotempest a sponsor? Literally never heard of them
Why do you keep saying "air COOLED" is especially bad in cold climates. Then you said "especially in hot climates" you can't fast charge more than once a day because the battery doesn't cook down. Which is it? Is it worse where the air is cold or where the air is hot?
It's both; liquid cooling is shorthand for active battery thermal management. Cooling applies to letting you condition the batteries for fast charging; heating for managing them at liveable temps when it's cold outside. Most of the time this is done through a thermally absorbent liquid.
Just find a used Hyundai ioniq electric especially a 2020 or 2021 38 Kilowatt model.
2020 Ioniq. Not the fastest charger, but has decent range and liquid cooled batteries.
Also I get 200 -225 miles range with mixed driving & commuting
It's slim pickings to find one under $25k :(
Sweet! I also love that the leaf can do V2H through chademo
the bolt is 26k. new. with 20 more miles of range (vs the higher end leaf) and battery cooling. why would anyone want a leaf?
any one of the team buying a GM Bolt?
DSLRs belong on a tripod, they are not very good at handheld filming. Not enough stabilization. Use an iPhone like Kyle, much better.
You're right. Short of using a gimbal the stabilization isn't as good as the phone's. I'll keep in mind for next review :)
I was surprised to see that a car with just over 60,000 miles was considered to be high mileage enough that the air cool battery condition was an issue. With cars that are made today, 60,000 miles really isn't that high of a mileage. Is the Leaf air-cooled battery that much of an issue at 60,000 miles? Can we have a longer explanation as to the problems with the Leaf air-cooled battery? I know that it is an issue, I just didn't expect it to be that much of an issue at 60,000 miles. Can you please expand on this issue?
yes he is just recycling some of the most common problems present in older generations of this model that are out there in internet many of which are misconceptions and use no data/numbers for backing his statements. if he is not using least a Leafspy data, or doing proper range testing; his assertions become just rummours that wont properly inform consumers. Kyle seems to be more responsible in this regard when he is makign statements about range, degradation; is DATA that talks; not just recycled words.
Avalon ballroom!
Less camera shake/movement would be appreciated
Noted!
Fiat 500e has no DCFC. Hidden gem or hidden turd?
We will find out!
Good luck finding these for under $25k in 2023, lol
What about a used tesla?
Eh, I could never recommend a Leaf to anyone unless it was very, very cheap (sub $10k) and they *only* planned to drive in town.
The lack of thermal management of the battery on all Leafs is a problem in almost any climate. If you live in a cold climate, the battery gets too cold and has no way to heat itself. If you live in a warm climate, the battery will get too hot with no way to cool itself. Both instances damage the battery and increase degradation, as well as substantially limit charging speeds. On top of that, their choice to continue to use chademo for so long even though it was abundantly clear that charging standard was dying fast (outside of Japan) makes it very sketchy to use on road trips, and limit your charging speeds due to almost every chademo charger in the US being “50kw” (even if the battery could handle the heat, which it can’t).
Given the availability of Bolts for around the same price with longer range, proper battery thermal management, and CCS fast charging, I can’t see any reason to buy a Leaf (aside from the small use case I mentioned in the 1st paragraph)
Why does this 'reviewer' think that liquid cooling is more necessary in COLD climates? The Leaf DOES have a battery warmer.
Also, the car has used 39% of it charge and has 77 miles remaining. This is NOT complicated math: It has used LESS than 50% of its charge, and has MORE than 50% of its range remaining, and that is at 3 degrees above freezing. The battery is fine.
Because when you don't have a heat pump you are using resistive heating to condition the battery and cabin heat of the vehicle, using more battery in the process. Long-term this isn't great for health. If you wanted to go really in-depth on battery health of this LEAF you'd probably be best off using LEAF Spy to see that diagnostic data.
@@maxpatten2694 I don't think he used Leaf Spy. I think he just did the usual 'Everyone knows the Leaf is trash, so this one must be", forgetting entirely that the Leaf is supposed to be trash for getting too hot, not too cold.
The leafs battery warmer is to prevent damage, not to heat it to an ideal temperature for range or charging. Only operates at -24C or something.
@@maxpatten2694 there is no battery conditioning in the Leaf.
This guy is obviously knowledgeable and an enthusiast of EV vehicles, but I really am questioning his knowledge as an auto journalist in general. He repeatedly refers to the vehicle as high mileage at 60,000 miles. This gives me great pause as to whether or not I should actually be investing in an electric vehicle if 60,000 miles is considered high mileage.
For a LEAF it’s high mileage when you don’t know what kind of temperature it’s been kept at or how degraded its battery is. Also for a 2018 model year I would consider that somewhat high mileage for any used car. My first car was a W211 (early 2000s Mercedes) with 80k miles on it to begin with so I’m well aware cars can last well over 100k. The LEAF is more precarious than your average ICE because of its battery cooling situation.
Omg ! You do not know what you talking about
I know lol, has the heater running in 35° weather and thinks that the GOM is showing its actual estimated range.
Holy talking in circles. Make a point, move on.