Space Marine's Oath of Moment got Nerfed - Good Change or Not?
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- Let's talk about the change to the core Space Marine rule - Oath of Moment...
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0:00 Intro
0:36 Change Announced
3:37 Damage Output
5:055 Poll
6:00 Units Affected Differently
7:59 Balance Thoughts
9:14 Outro - Ігри
Nerfing oath while increasing balance sheet effectiveness is fine. Now will we get that later part? Not sure.
Might be units that work better with leader synergies and enhancements.
In practice, no, marines will likely just feel worse after the initial meta shift.
@@Smilomaniac I agree, but we have to see. I still think (based on faction fantasy) marines should have the best infantry. A marine player should WANT to field intercessors and other boring infantry due to effectiveness, but we are not there.
Exactly. The balance could also have been done with the detachment abilities but we know that’s not the case. I am very worried we’ll just see another point drop
@@smallbarnsI’m fairly certain that’s what will happen. “Go play with more of them” and lose any faction identity
X Doubt
9th edition : omg pls release new codex, we need a buff
10th edition : omg pls don't release new codex, I don't want the nerf
Me a Sisters player:
Well it can't get any worse.
The codex ain't even out yet master chief.
Should have been choosing to re-roll hits OR re-roll wounds.
Make flamers worthwhile for those of us with pyrophilia.
Full reroll for wounds is nuts in general, just way too op...
I ran a Salamander army in 9th and also in 10th. So I had a lot of flame aggressors and even the Infernus units when they released. I can tell you it was never flame weapons that benefited from Oath of Moment. It was more valuable to put Oath on targets that you were directing Devastating Wounds weapons to. My flamers were firing elsewhere to clean up chaff. It’s devastating wounds weapons that are losing out with the Oath change.
It would have been nice to be able to re-roll the number of attacks on Torrent weapons. I don't think that would be too strong, but would also allow them to benefit from Oath. It's something of a silver lining that Torrent weapons are made to handle the targets on which Oath would have been wasted anyway.
Tbh had that been the case then 98% of the time people would have chosen wou ds so might as well have made it reroll wounds.
I suppose a choice is technically better though no choice and would still be more balanced than old oaths.
No
Space marine melee will suffer the worst out of this. There are at least multiple ways for ranged units to get rerolls on wounds without Oaths. But there are barely any reroll wound rolls for melee.
And in my opinion, the detachments do not make up for the loss of power without the reroll wounds. I'm thinking that SM will be worse off.
@theviewbot well eradicators can reroll pretty much everything and aggressors have twin linked on their weapons
The Infernus marines are gonna suffer to.
Aggressor time
Yeah, lack of wound rerolls in melee is very noticeable.
Doesnt help that so few marine units can actually get lightning claws anymore. GW seem to be hell bent on getting rid of them.
They're gone from most characters/sergeant options now, none of the primaris can take them outside of one Black templar unit or raven guard with shrike.
Vanguard now have generic 'heirloom weapons', assault squad sergeants will lose access to them in the next update, as will likely most of the firstborn HQ characters when they and primaris versions are merged into a single datasheet.
Only units that can still take the actual claws are assault terminators, plus old school tactical and devastator sergeants now.
I think Xenos win out on this and that’s ok in my book
Oath was not a healthy rule, but neither have been other patches before it (looking at you 9th armor of contempt). The issue is now space marines who already aren’t performing the greatest will perform even worse. I worry about what happens when GW says “ok we will just lower the points” and space marines are now orks in power armor.
my white scars are a decoration right now. thankfully i have my successors that i just play as gladius for now and it's at least playable.
That's what they did to DG. I win games now but I can field way more marines than regular marines can. Cool elite army
As someone who plays casually with the sons of Sanguineous detachment, I am quite nervous. Reroll wounds was the half I liked better. The poorer strength on melee is really going to be felt
The biggest hopium is that it opens up an actual return of Red Thirst, reroll wounds really compressed that design space
@shh532 wow came to the comments and man's beat me to it. By the blood its rough. Outriders that were never taken would be insane rn 😂
As a Space Wolves player, I completely relate to the melee problems that lower strength comes with. Our armies both took a nerf that drastically reduces our melee damage output to a level where competitive viability is just out of the question. Such a shame 😅
I'm hoping they add in reroll mechanics on like the lieutenant or something. I already use a bunch of twin linked weapons but I would sure like to reroll the wounds for my comby bolters
@@rellikskuppin7417And here I thought people were already sleeping on outriders. 3+ outriders led by a chaplain on bike with bolter discipline is no joke
As someone who got 10 flamer marines in the Leviathan box, I'm not liking the change.
I wouldn't mind the nerf except for the fact stronger factions like aeldari and necrons were barely touched
I have half a suspicion that it was always planned to be hit rerolls and they realised last minute that the launch detachment for the index was underpowered damage dealing wise and so bolted in a pre-emptive buff for the digital index. Does make me wonder where the otherwise excellet gladius strike forcd might be if there arent major datasheet improvement at least as far as damage dealing is concerned.
Changing oaths is a great change as it always felt like a massive crutch SM had to lean on to be somewhat playable. The issue is that there does not appear to be anything that would lift up SM power level to a point where kicking the crutch away is warranted in any way. Even the new shiny jump assault intercessors are extremely meh power and ability wise, meaning the only reason to play them would be if they are crazy cheap. This would be the single worst thing that could happen to the "Angels of death", become a big guardsman.
Yea now they have nothing
Logically removing wound reroll would allow for easier balance changes, as anything fixed outside of OoM would've been crazy op while in it. Hopefully there actually are balance changes to prove this
Yeah, judging by how the tyranid codex was written, I doubt SM will get what's needed to compensate for the loss of the second half of oath. But, hopefully we'll get some interesting tweaks with units or strats
Describing OoM as a crutch is perfect. I’m glad it’s gone, datasheet buffs will come, might just take a while languishing in the low percentages. GW have an understandable phobia of letting SM accidentally get too powerful given their popularity and ease of use.
@@bjwal6 no datasheet buffs. Points cut. Horde army now, buy more models
I know when I fought Death Guard as they are now I needed both re-rolls to keep pace.
"Hopefully GW will make balance adjustments if they do wind up underpowered for whatever reason"
HAHAHHAHAHAHHAAHAHHA
That's a big level of Faith, a incredible level... but the big problem is... we're talking about GW, they don't test their own damn rules changes
i think they ahould have made it like "choose hit or wound when selecting oath target"
i understand flamers are kinda screwed here, but wound rolls are WAAAAY more valuable than hit rolls. it wouldnt even be a choice. every player would take reroll wounds, regardless of their loadout. which doesnt solve our problem and doesnt nerf an overpowered mechanic enough.
@@kyrridas1573im not so sure... there are a lot of units with twin linked weapons. And units with sustained or lethal could prefer rerolling to hit
@TheAnscarii true, but you'd have to build your entire army to specifically benefit off of that. Otherwise, choosing army-wide hit rerolls is still less valuable. And if we're talking keywords, devastating wounds is like the name of the game in 10th. Rerolling wounds for that is way more valuable than even lethal hits.
At this time it seems like a bad change. Marines seem to be pretty average, the previewed datasheets look to be nerfed compared to their firstborn counter parts, and all the detachments previewed seems worse than gladius, so looking like marines are going to be in a rough spot. Oh yeah also losing what 30+ datasheets, some of which were their best units.
Im hyped for firestorm
As a Salamanders player I think it'd be nice if they at least changed the new Oath of Moment to be "...you can re-roll the Hit roll and [Torrent] weapons can reroll 1's when making an attack roll."
new should oath as reroll hit and wounds rolls of 1, solve the problem for torrent, twinlink, and over power scaling. It keeps the agility strong, while preventing fishing for 6's, and offers something to all weapons
It could easily be re roll hit or wound and you pick in each command phase. Would also give marines that flavour of being flexible and tactically adjustable.
Vulkan is going to get a workout this edition, I'm relieved he stuck about in the Codex.
Funny how people think " As a Salamander player" you literaly dont exist anymore, you dont have a codex so use other units and ADAPT. Jesus those "salamander boys live in nostalgie.
@@slashnine Not everyone enjoys the game in the same exact way you do. Lore and theme is important to me. I enjoy my army having an identity beyond how pieces of plastic on a table interact with the rules.
>"Wound rerolls are hard to come by"
>Makes tyranid detachments
I just wish GW could commit to what they want the poster-child faction of their 35 year old game to be for more than a few months before changing their mind again.
It’s because each edition they compel themselves to “shake it up” so that people move editions.
They seem to not care about learning what works and what doesn’t and instead just push for change regardless
YOU go learn how to balance a game with millions of possibilities. LOL. egocentric.
How are Space Marines not still the poster child? They get the most models. Even their sub factions get more exclusive models than most factions get models period. They get the most of the fiction centered around them. They're at the center of the marketing. Posterchild doesn't mean "currently strongest in the meta".
@@badwrongfun5541 I'm not suggesting that space marines need to be better or worse - just considering that since they are the faction that GW clearly focuses on the on most, it's concerning that they can't seem to nail down how they're supposed to play.
Terrible change! Oh no, the most popular faction isn’t selling enough let’s nerf their rules so we can buff their points so people need to buy more models
I am reserving judgement untill I see all the rules, but Marines don't really have good damage output overall (now that Desolators are done and gone).
This is a changed driven by hurt feelings rather than stats. The stats being SM are a mid army. Non SM players complain about the rule because it feels bad. Its fairly demoralizing to have your opponent reroll everything. They need to compensate for this some how or a meh army is going to be flat worse.
Not sure that's a very fair way of looking at this.
Especially considering the codex was printed ahead of time, not sure where "hurt feelings" would be involved
I think it's more important to look at this from a game balance perspective. Being, the original rule is nuts and makes Space Marines either really strong of their units are tuned, or really weak because everything needs to be weaker to compensate.
I hate having to rely on oaths to do damage, however they need oaths to do damage currently so hope they change alot more
new should oath as reroll hit and wound rolls of 1, solve the problem for torrent, twinlink, and overall power scaling. It keeps the agility strong, while preventing fishing for 6's, and offers something to all weapons
they hit on 3s, rerolling ones is almost like just giving them full rerolls, what they need is a different rule entirely, Oath is just a shitty rule. it's not a fun rule to play against and rerolls are the cancer of the game, It needs to be gone entirely. then fix balance for the SMs as a whole.
just curious to see what the codex will be like.
At this point the oath nerf seems a bad nerf for the faction: there are a lot of utility and base units that have poor strenght and ap weapons but they can help in game just cause of the oath [intercessor, assault intercessor, heavy intercessor, the phobos guys, scouts, assault intercessor in normal combat excluding the mortal wounds trick, the fire of terminators, even bladeguard veterans have only 5 strenght etc.].
In this way seems you need to choose a lot less of them 🤔
There is a saying in Romanian. Don't trade the raven in your hand for the raven on the fence.
We had oath of moment and it worked well. We definitely lose it and we MIGHT get improved balancing which would be great.
The keyword is MIGHT.
isn't there a more common version that goes "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"?
If Marines and Nids were designed around the same time, and Nids got only few balance tweaks, mostly negative, I have little expectation for balance tweaks for Marines. Both books were finalized a long time before the release of the 10th edition and the performance in the first few months will not be reflected in this release.
From the Nid perspective, the codex was a weird release - the default detachment is still the best one, the book adds nothing to it. I got the book, read the book, said "cool" and I put it on the shelf, building my army exactly with the same rules, enhancements, stratagems and datasheets as before, just with Tyrannofex and genestalers nerfed, and the balance dataslate nerfing the shit out of Tyrants...
The most pointless purchase in a very long time.
@@Skyvlk i dunno, i like the idea of the Hive Tyrant Fighting on Death followed up by exploding for a double fuck you
Great summary video as ever, really helpful!
I don't even think the original rule was that bad. You could only do it on ONE unit, and while hit rolls are alright. Let's say you put it on an armoured unit. Sure, you get to re-roll hit rolls. If you're attacking with anything less than a lascannon though, your chances of rolling a 5+ are still pretty low. Not to mention there's still the rest of the army to think about, so it's not like you can focus fire all on one guy. It's good against something like knights that don't have many units, but it's really only mediocre against most other things
Oath was not something that was breaking the game like some other faction rules… and due to the extending the toughness stuff really overall nerfed a tonne of space marines weapons (i will never get used to power fists, thunder hammers and melta guns wounding big things on 5’s it just feels wrong) and this hurts them hard…
Well said.
so far none of the new detachments have shown anything replacing oath of moment as a damage spike. This was all i had against knights and necrons. I don't see them changing a lot of datasheets and Guiliman going up 25 points before the nerf was really weird..
GW knows they will sell marines no matter what so no need to make the army competitive
It would be pretty easy to fix the torrent issue with a datasheet change - something like “when shooting your oath of moment target, this weapon re-rolls 1s to wound”?
In* regards to including [Torrent] weapons in the new Oath of Moment I can think of a few ways it could be done:
- Give [Torrent] weapons +1A. Simple and effective. The question with torrent weapons is not if they'll hit but how much they hit. Considering Oath is meant to showcase how much more determined marines become when trying to fulfill a pre-battle oath they've committed to, ensuring that just a bit more of that [Torrent] hit the target than usual is the goal. I feel the simple +1A demonstrates this elegantly. It even has a very balanced power scaling: you roll a 1? Oath gave you a 100% increase in hits. Rolled a 6? Oath only gave you about a 16% increase in hits. Rolled a 3 (the expected average)? Oath gave a 33% increase in hits, which happens to be what most other weapons will get from Oath as well.
-Allow [Torrent] weapons to reroll the attack roll. Could even make it only rerolling 1's.
-Roll a D3. [Torrent] weapons get that many additional hits. (honestly sounds too broken imo)
-Roll 2D6 and take the higher result. This unfortunately would make rolling attacks for a whole squad of Infernus marines rather tedious.
-Change any instance of "D6" for [Torrent] attacks to "2D3" (I like this one a little more than the "+1A" option, but GW would have to nail the wording of the rule so you don't screw over things like He'stan's flamer with it's inherent +3 to attacks)
Just a few off the top of my head.
*Edit, just correcting autocorrect 🙄
As an Astra Militarum tank enjoyer, it does make me happy that whatever random nonsense the Marines toss at my Dorns will no longer reliably wound them. I do think that based on the power level of the Marines, they do need compensatory buffs, though. So, short term probably a problem overall, but long term, it could result in better overall balance for the Marines, *if* they receive those compensatory buffs.
Yeah
Same fellow guard player
Also guard born soldier gotta need a rework?
@@Theendisnear_ok ONLY when we stand still
@@internetuser320 I really like the feel of both current Oath and Born Soldiers. Regular guys SHOULD shoot more effectively when stationary and taking aim. Move Move Move onto objectives then dig in and shoot. Feels right. And Oath is cool because it makes the Space Marines feel like they get power from their coordination.
HERETIC
SM is the second codex, they are anyway destined to be drowned by the usual power creep. So SM points will just decrease over time to make up for it. Business as usual, just this time free war gear isn’t a potential buff anymore.
I would like to see Death Guard go from a debuff aura force to be more of a durability style force with lots of lethal wounds on poison stuff.
As a space marine player I feel we should have been given the choice to reroll either hits or wounds. This is definitely going to hurt us vs high toughness targets
We dont know what the new unit reworks they talked about will be yet so lets hold out hope for the army
For torrent weapons, it would be cool if they could reroll the shots number, that kinda mirrors the hit rerolls.
Space marines were average before this debuff. The fact that they got nerfed and eldar got a slap on the wrist is ridiculous. There are broken factions, space marines weren’t one of them
Eldar are sitting at 50% right now. So….
Stop crying baby, Eldar got nerfed extremly hard, sitting around 50% now and are not even close to dominate the meta. Get good.
If 50% win rate is optimal balance why are they nerfing an army with a 47% win rate! That’s crazy!
CSM player here. Not gonna lie, this is a HUGE nerf.
But the rule was weird. It impacted every list I built. Yes, EVERY time I designed a list for 10th so far, I asked myself on contemplating a 10 man squad, “What if I go up against Space Marines and this gets Oath of Momented?” I ran 10 man squads of terminators in 9th, but my termies have not seen a single game of 10th, in large part due to this rule.
And knight players have it way worse than me. Imagine half your codex being a bad choice against the most popular faction.
Again, tentatively optimistic. This rule was odd. But really powerful. If there isn’t a compensating increase in power for marines to make up for this, then this sucks.
I want to be able to take 10 man expensive squads, or a big knight, and have it not suck against marines. I also want marines to be a worthy opponent.
Without a suitable replacement for this nerf, marines are going to be in for a rough time.
55% is the max optimal range GW aims for factions at the top, and while losing oaths wound re rolls isn't great. It's definitely a valid pre-emptive nerf so that marines don't end up being overwhelmingly better than other factions like Eldar was (Eldar is at 58% win rates from 70% so the meta is definitely changing for the better)
GW couldn't balance a see-saw even if they took the board off and laid it on the ground. Not sure why we continue to get surprised when they can't balance armies😂😂.
@@whitee55 they've definitely gone well in the right direction with the current changes to win rates and factions that have won GT's. So idk what you're smoking to say that.
@@SpiritStoneWarrior94-yx3gs after multiple bouts of balancing eldar are still very much on top, votan are still so far behind and several other factions have been nerfed or buffed unnecessarily with little result to the balancing of the game. I'm not saying it's easy to balance 40k. But they certainly didn't try at the start of the edition. And haven't done a fantastic job by several months in at this point. And a large nerf to what many would consider the main faction, when they are in no danger of becoming dangerous, let alone top tier, is frankly, silly.
I know it's ridiculous but I have a history of starting to play things (Armies, decks, characters in games) and they get nerfed heavily shortly there after. I just started playing my Salamander army a few weeks ago :(
My main problem with this is once again the divergent chapters. Having Oath on every flavor of marine was already boring, and now it got worse. And while you say melee doesn't care as much, since oath is better in shooting, melee strength is a problem currently, with even thunder hammers wounding most monsters and vehicles on 5+. Even with chaplains everywhere not having the wound reroll for Oath makes the rule feel kind of pointless for something like Space Wolves. Divergent chapters really need unique army rules.
I hope they try and fix it by buffing datasheets, but I think it's more likely they'll just reduce point costs of everything. Space marines already don't feel very elite, so I don't want them to get even cheaper (and weaker) per model.
People say Marines are an "elite" army, but that's... not really true. They are the middling, average faction, with middling numbers of models (not a horde, not Knights or Custodes); they shoot well, but not _amazingly_ well, and the same for melee; they aren't made of paper, but most weapons are built around being able to kill Marines; and finally, basically everyone has a Marine army.
They aren't elite. They are average. The standard. The meter of comparison. Custodes are elite.
@@weissraben4476 Well, that's what I said, they're already not very elite. An intercessor is worth about as much as 2.5 guardsmen, in terms of points.
I'd like for them to be more elite, so the gameplay closer reflects the lore, but that's currently not really the case, and I hope it doesn't go further as a result of the oath change.
@@aqua7734 Here's the thing: I didn't mean that _now_ they aren't elite. Marines _never were_ particularly elite in their entirety. They've always been the 40k yardstick, and by definition a yardstick is average, not elite.
I'm trying to avoid having the knee jerk reaction of hate, as a Space Wolves player. But we better get an army wide buff elsewhere to make up for it. Because it is a big deal to loose something like this. I just hope it isn't only a points buff, because that's kind of boring. I'd rather just stronger rules within the army.
Also, the new First Company Detachment is a bit of a slap in the face. "Here once per game, you get this thing we stole from you back."
We already know we're getting stronger rules. THe Salamander and White Scars Detachment are dream rules for things like SW and BA players. All guns have Assault and get +1 Strength if within 12"? Yes please. Or everything can Advance and still Charge? Even fricken better.
@@touchofoblivion6186 I was mostly meaning stronger rules on units over just the detachment. Cause those are both cool. Yes as an SW player I am very much looking forward to Stormlance.
it is genuinely sad considering the first company detachment was the thing I was most excited for just for it to be... that.. this is the most disappointed I've ever been
@@ryza7760 agreed. I love running Bladeguard and WG Terminators.
as a chaos daemons player i love it
As a Deathwatch player, it feels pretty bad after taking so many hits in the dataslate. Probably have to drop Black Spear for a while assuming the new detachments have some kind of compensation. Either way, feels pretty bad overall.
I typically play smaller point games so full oath seemed overly punishing. I can see how in a 2k game it doesn't have as much impact esp in the competitive meta. For small casual games it felt oppressive.
Even the weaker version of Oath of Moment is skewed towards centerpiece armies and lower point costs. What was really needed was something completely different.
I think this is a common theme around space Marines from addition to. They're sort of always a meddling faction except for when they're the first faction with full rules and then generally they're very strong. However due to the sheer number of units the army and people are sort of slow on the uptake of swapping out units for new combos or trying out new things space Marine armies 10 to stagnate at a particular range of wins. It tends to take the meta a really long time to try out something new to see if it works or not .
The one time not being able to afford the codexes comes in clutch
Obviously terrible for all SM armies, great for every opponent of SM. Rerolling wounds is far more important that rerolling hits with the heavy use of high Toughness models out there. The hits are a static number with everything under a power fist needing 5 or 6s to wound in most cases. This might make Chaplains worth fielding again but Lethal hits from LTs might still be more reliable to secure some wounds.
"Hopefully GW will make balance adjustments if they do wind up underpowered." Oh Auspex, you're smarter then this. SM were strong for 2 months in 9th then outside of IH were absolutely terrible for almost the entire edition until the drastic points cuts of the final few months. Now they're starting off weak, got weaker and have nothing to show for it. I have zero faith in GW to fix anything in a reasonable amount of time.
40k doesnt make profits by making a ballanced game people want to play. If you want that try one of gws specialist games or a different system to run 40k.
Like the One Page Rule system
What's your main army bud?
They weren't strong, but they were definitely not "absolutely terrible" in 9th edition. Specially at the start with all the broken crap tossed in. I was there, I had to suffer through those dreadnought+erradicator-heavy lists
Unless there are lots of changes in datasheets (which I doubt) its a big nerf to SMs, that are already performing poorly. 45% win rate at the weekend, 44% for BA, 44% for DW, and that is all with wound re-rolls on oath.
Part of its poor performance is due to overrepresentation and being an army with which many rookies start and yet they are moving between 45-52 depending on the chapter.
I wonder if this means they will Nerf the Eldar's Unparalleled Foresight the same way?
They’ll be giving eldar 6 other detachments 🙃. I doubt everyone is going to still with Unparalleled Foresight. Eldar just living in everyone’s head rent free
Eldar -just living in everyone's head rent free- dominating the entire edition so far, in the most lopsided meta seen in 15 years.@@Whoknows21356
@@Whoknows21356it is not rent free if in order to not lose all the time , people have to BUY armies with the "what if it auto loses to elsar and armies tuner up to deal with eldar" question in mind.
The game is always unbalanced because of the decisions gw makes, its all just a scheme to sell more plastic models.
As a SM player I feel overall it's a uneeded nerf and that the Codex will do little to improve the situation
I don’t play space marines, but I think that it would be good if some data sheets (mainly those with torrent weapons) have an ability that changes oath to reroll wounds instead.
I feel like all flamer units and by extension salamander players as a whole just LOST their army rule basically.
I've always thought that giving ALL flamers the twin link rule would just make them stupid scary for INFANTRY only mostly due to a lot of these weapons not really getting past strength 8? (Knights) to like 5 (marine) so twin link to fish for a 6 to wound on a tank is pointless when you can fish for 3plus on infantry 😂 it would make them scary and a fine weapon class to take on a character to maybe take like 3 infantry units
The old oath of moments was very over powered in small games but seemed balanced in big games.
Not at all.
Center piece models where always the target, and so the effectiveness of those center piece models would drop almost instantly because of it. Because now instead of only having to roll for two wounds, you have to roll for four.
It wasn’t broken, evident by SM not absolutely destroying the meta…but it really did pidgeon hole marines into a single playstyle…which lets be honest, has already been figured out. The new change means we can start looking into the million other datasheets in the codex. Pretty exciting
Exactly. Who cares if you delete an enemy unit every turn if the enemy has 20 units?
@@tuffn00gies As a Custodes player Oath was horribly strong
@@finnewar it was only an issue if you put all your eggs in one basket. My mate plays tau and always brings the big guns to the battle when facing space marines and always gets his strategical lynch pin deleted in turn on and to. But he is still playing 10th like 9th.
Oh yes, please another round of point cost reductions. I have not build a full company to not be able to field them in a 1000 point game😶... SM horde armies really feel like the fluff they are based on.
Kinda think they should have made the combat doctrines interface with oath, not sure many marines will play gladius when the other options look more competitive. Something like get the re-roll to wound for shooting in devastator doctrine plus a similar thing for assault doctrine?
Wow being able to reroll hits sure helps the Flamestorm aggressors and Infernus marines that make up alot of my army. Very helpful GW
The aggressors can already reroll wounds innately... But yeah, rip poor infernus Marines 😢
But theres a detachment to add +1S....
@@darrenbarlow1826 That doesn't fix Oom being essentially useless. That is a good thing though. That + getting assault on everything so we can actually get into range instead of the standard very slow movement of Gravis
Honestly, if they had just given the old shock assault rule back that would probably be the fix needed.
i mean blood angels already have it so... (if you're talking about the 9th ed +1 attack)
thats completely stupid. all units have 1 atack more than in 9th edition to balance that.
An additional attack would math out for more damage without being TOO noticeable to the opponent.
tbh now that i am thinking about it and the big weakness that melee has is that... you need to charge into engagement to deal damage. which is kinda why i'm super disappointed the primaris champion is being rolled in with the company heros since that +1 to charge and advance is exactly what a melee unit needs to get charges more reliably.
Messing with oath of moments is certainly a risk. One wrong tweak and it means the entire faction awful. itd be like how messing with Necrons’ reanimation protocals is the difference between them being good and being unplayable
Oath is what game us SM players a balance against overpowered or overfilled lists (I.E. Necrons) which have multitunious multi-wound models that take up roughly 45-60% of your firepower.
this nerf is about to kill Space Marines & they will disappear majorly from the "victory" line for competative
@@metroidsax1you are being overly dramatic, SM have been decent at a minimum for every edition. They wont disappear, marines have between 2 and 5 wounds per model. Most other factions dont. SM have a minimum armor of 4+ for scouts but mostly 3+ or better. Most other armies don't. SM have over 100 different choices. You tell me, can you not just change the way you play to be more tactful or are you needing a single rule to win you games
@@eddyrusou4507 SM have not been decent at a minimum for every edition. 9th edition showed that SM can be utter garbage outside of a few skew lists. And when those lists get bonked, they sink back into obscurity. Reminder that the vast majority of SM lists were barely above the 40% winrate.
And you say that SM have that armour save, but they're paying for that armour save.
You're being incredibly condescending, and thus people will not listen to you. Maybe if you bothered looking at ANY meta watches, you'll see that SM have been rather shite for a LONG time, outside of a few skew lists.
@@XealotCoilsokay yes you also get new stuff more often than any other codex. Even as a collection of groups you have more choice than anyone. If meta data is all you look at then yea you are somewhat correct but meta data is not the only factors
@@eddyrusou4507 So you admit that SM have not been doing well at all outside of a few skew lists for the past edition or so. So you bring up an irrelevant point of SM getting new models, despite ignoring how much of our codex has just been cut off, and how few units are actually good.
Getting new models and units never equates to more power, and it never will. There is a reason why SM were low on the winrates despite their "OP" faction rule.
And you say I only look at metadata. Cause that's what GW looks at, and that's what they use to buff/nerf armies. What problematic part of SM needed to be nerfed? By all rights, we deserved a buff since our winrate was garbage.
Like there is a reason why SM sat at that winrate for the longest time. If it was a week or so of that winrate before going back to a higher level, you'd have a point, but no.
The SM winrate has been consistently garbage for the vast majority of 9th and the majority of 10th. And let me tell you, shitty players do not make the majority of that reason.
Saw it coming from the Combat Patrol, but was hoping it was just for CP not for a 2000pt game
So they nerf oath and and put judgement back to full strength. Maybe with just one or two units per turn they work but four units it’s broken. Just maybe. I would be fine with the change if space marines where at 55% win rate and taking home some GT’s but they aren’t. It wasn’t broken but I guess they fixed it.
Being on the receiving end of oath, it often felt like over kill on a bunch of my units. I’m interested to see how it feels after nerf
I play SM and Nids. I very much disliked when my friend fried my carnifexes (T9) with a land rider (2D6 S6 Ap-2 Dam 2) . As a nid player I like that they removed wound reroll, but as a SM player I would prefer if the full wound reroll changed to wound reroll of 1s. And yes my dices hate me.
@@remliel1675it just means you'll get my old plague weapons problem. You'll always roll a 2 to wound instead
@@user-hv6gi9ux6z that just means I need to use weapons with higher S or get a lot of units with leathal hits and just try to fish out those 6s with oath
They should’ve let you choose which one to reroll instead of just saying hits only. Now units with torrent units gain absolutely NOTHING from their own faction’s special rule.
Same for death company
This is the case for alot of armies...... deal with it i guess , my flamers don't benefit from my sustained hit buffs
If the data sheets change for the better then as a space marines player I’m fine with the change to oath. My main issue is with oath in the first place, it’s not the most feels good rule for SM in any case but sudden reroll wound rolls was the most jarring part. Hopefully later throughout the edition GW actually change data sheets in balance data slates to address core issues.
Hopefully they'll make meltas worth a God damn now. I know they won't but I can hope. They'll just let SM sit sub 40%
I'd like the rule to be tweaked away from a damage boost and towards rolling X dice to wound per hit if within half range. Each success is a needed save. It'd give meltas a lot of damage and utility against vehicles at close range, which is what they've always been meant to be good at, while being a nice callback to the old Melta rule for armor penetration.
I think it may well be a bad thing. I think it all depends on how powerful the detachment rules are. We've got a lot riding on them now. Sixty bucks for identical datasheets and a weaker faction rule; yeah detachments need to be good. And the lore too!
We already know all the detachment rules for all 7 of em. Most em look like sidegrades to GTF. Taking doctrines away in place of Oath was a mistake for 10th.
@@tastefulavengerwe only know the general detachment rules, don't we? We don't have access to all the strats and enhancements yet, which will make a big difference to how they play
I'll split the difference and say we don't know everything but we have the general shape of it. Sometimes the devil is in the details, and that's sort of my point. We *need* there to be something in that book, that we haven't seen, that makes the Oath nerf okay. But now that I say that, it does sound pretty optimistic.
@@RSBurgener I'm imagining much like the Tyranid detachments, we'll probably be about 50/50 on good ones and duds. The Salamander themed one looks like the standout to me at the moment (or at least the one that best fits my army composition), but we'll have to see how they all shake out in the end.
It would be very lame if the Oath nerf ruins them, but we can always hope GW reverts it in a future balance pass
@@keithchristmas7315and they may well revert back to it. They don't seem shy about that kind of thing now. I felt that 10th was time to go with my own custom chapter; sort of future-proofing against rules we haven't seen. I'm casual, so I don't think any outcome is gonna ruin my day. I just hope we get something that can stand up to the power creep that's barreling down upon us. So I'd put good odds on getting reroll wounds back at some point.
I'm personally indifferent on it, funny how it flipped from helping torrent and not helping twin kinked to not helping torrent and massively helping twin linked. Also Robotech guilliman in the first company task force could allow double old oath I think
It's like they're forcing us to use more busted combos like the Aggressor/Biologis brick, so they can nerf it later. When marines aren't even a problem right now
If Oath had been re-roll hits only since the start people would still have complained that it is too powerful. Prove me wrong.
Unless GW massively buff the strength of SM weapons it’s absolutely awful. Thunder hammers and meltas are strength 8 and will wound most vehicles including light vehicles like rhinos on 5+.
The only weapons that can potentially wound vehicles on 4+ or better are the lascannons that have the worst damages in the game for anti tanks weapons, grav cannons that are only on firstborn units that don’t really have leaders anymore or chainfists that can only be used by Terminators that will never reach any vehicle because they are too slow
Hopefully by changing Oath it will open up their design space for SM units to make their abilities more interesting
Spoilers it won't
I hope too.
Yeah you're basically getting NO ability changes judging by the Tyranid Codex unless it's a nerf so enjoy that.
Not overly upset about oath because i do really like some of the new detachments. They have rules that do kinda make up for it.
The bigger one that i really find myself missing in this edition is combat squads. Past couple of months has really driven home just how much i used to use it, and somehow feels really wrong not having it.
Would happily take getting combat squads back over having oath right now.
pero como si lo viera, quieres escuadrones de combate como antes, martillos y pistolas de fusion o escudos ?? xd
While I disliked oath at the start. We have a low winrate, so I'm worried how the faction will manage.
Surprised how many people like the change, but i maybe they just want to autowin games against this faction 😆
I think it’s good, only if other armies get nerfed to hell aswell (Eldar). I feel the army rule should be ‘a good boost’ not a delete button
Eldar are at 50% WR right now. Why are you so worried about other factions? Get over it
People still go for the "mimimi Eldar mimimi", its so funny.
@@Whoknows21356 ‘Why are you so worried about other factions?’ In a game where most people collect multiple factions and you play against other factions. Righto big fella good one
@@Whoknows21356 😂 cute you think Eldar are fine because you saw 50% wr somewhere, they're just not absolutely broken anymore they are still the best faction just not unbeatable
I just dearly hope the change won't mean that marines drop a bunch of points! The game really doesn't need more hoard armies
*My Death Company meeting with GW with the new Oath*
DC: Yo Horus, what the fuck are we supposed to do with this?!
Losing wound rerolls definitively hurts my drop pods full of sternguard devastating wound strategy.
Importantly Guilliman does not give a second oath of moment target… he grants full refills to hit and wound a second enemy unit after the oath of moment has been destroyed. So a nerf to OoM will make him both more important but harder to activate
They previewed his new data sheet. It’s shown that his ability is second oath of moment not an ability worded differently. He will also follow the same change to reroll wounds.
Well as someone playing blood angels i just wanna die, the only actually useful part was wound since death company already rerolls hits so i guess we are getting an even worse win rate.
Does this affect Combat Patrol? That already got nerfed with devastating wounds change. This too? Or not applying in this specific case?
Serves me right for asking before finishing the video. CP already has this OoM
Not effecting torrent weapons seems fair to me given they can use overwatch to essentially shoot twice a turn
Honestly, with the large toughness unbalance and general increase on a lot of units, as well as general better survivability (Genesteeler Cults, Tyranid, necrons, etc), allowing the choice to pick between re-roll all failed hits or re-roll 1's to wound would have been the better balance. Getting rid of the re-roll wounds is okay, but not replacing it with just a "re-roll 1s to wound" is a bit drastic.
Doing this not only nerfs flame weapons but melee as well, seeing as generally melee is very lack luster atm in the game. All I got to say is that melee, as a SM (and Nid) player, is usually uneventful due to the toughness changes across the board. You either deal like 3 damage or completely wipe a unit in one turn (screamer killer, hive tyrant, aberrants, can do this fairly easily and so on). So making Oath give full re-roll wounds for only the fight phase until your next command phase would have been an okay way of balancing this rule as well. It would make space marines much more useful for melee and make their fights against high toughness targets less one dimensional (the space marines are either stuck until they die and deal little damage, or its a complete wipe).
Generally, it feels bad. You hit on 3's most of the time anyhow, with most weapons having the "heavy" rule giving +1 to hit if you stand still, so by the time turn 2 comes around, most of your gunline should be hitting on 2's. If they give a general stat buff to SM units, it should be fine. Like allowing the lieutenant to have a 6" aura while in a unit so that more units can benefit from lethal hits. Or making a stratagem that gives a unit with bolt weapons Sustained hits 1, or allowing it to stack if they already have it because of some other ability/rule. This mixed with bolter discipline can more than make up for the lack of wound re-rolls in terms of fire power, and it will still feel thematic for the army.
It is a rediculus army buff ? Marines get it for 1 , 2 with g man, units per turn. Eldar have their re rolls on top of miracle dice.
It’s a badly designed ability.
On paper it’s fun and powerful, in practice is un-fun to the target of, but it’s predictable and countered in simple ways. It’s also only five units across a whole game.
The deeper issue is that it’s a terrible replacement for the many extra rules marines previously had to validate the too-high point cost per model in 8th and 9th, due to the increase in wounds (which caused a DECREASE in fire power per point).
Undortunately this change is a result of people prematurely complaining about an ability that looks strong but isn’t good enough.
The error here isn’t the needless nerf, it is that it wasn’t replaced wholesale with combat doctrines or something else.
And for the people who think this is a good change, they have outed themselves as shortsighted and should expect no sympathy when they get a bad adjustment.
Totally agree with the replacement of combat doctrines as the army rule. They feel a lot more space marine fluffy than oath did and it's a solid set of rules that really show off the flexibility of marines. If we just had combat doctrines instead of oath, I'm sure people would have complained anyways but it would be nice with the new detachments focusing less on tactical versatility and more on specialized combat
Unless GW revamp the entire suit of datasheets, this change will throw a faction barely croaking along into the dumpster. Meanwhile in Eldarland...
Agreed 100%. Too many datasheets are currently garbage. Out of the Gladiators only the Lancer is worth it, at 150 points the others are better than a Balistus Dread but I’d rather just be shy on points than take that steaming pile. Desolation Marines never should’ve been 10 max, only ever 5 at the release points.
Without complete overhauls of datasheets, Marines will go from meh to shit real quick. This said I have a sneaking suspicion that I should go out and grab some Firestrike Turrets.
Someone didn’t look at the last Meta Monday. Eldar sitting at 50% now. Eldar living in everyone’s head rent free 😂
Hey the tyranids are with ya man. At least the 2 star factions are both going to be meh 😭
@olegreg4787 you gonna say that 'rent free' line to everyone in these comments? Get a new joke, loser.
Stop crying kid, Eldar dropped hard to around 50% and are not even close to dominating the meta. Also like 80% of the eldar datasheets are unplayable, they are focused around 5 units and some fast stuff to score.
i think i'll just end up forgetting oath exists with this rule change since spacemarines already hit decently, its just the higher toughness stuff they struggle with. if oath was replaced by gladius' doctrines i feel like that'd be a better exchange but overall i'm basically gonna be ignoring it from now on.
I'm a Marine player, and tbh I'm glad it changed. Like you said, it felt like too much of a stand-out Win More button. There's got to be better, and more importantly more interesting and FUN ways to make Marines interesting, tbh.
Can oath of moments be used out of phase? like with a overwatch strat?
So this was already the rule in boarding actions so actually not that surprising it's come in. Does really weaken infantry in particular Vs higher toughness armies. Have really struggled Vs death guard for instance. Will have to see in normal games
I had a fight against custodes yesterday.... Since the buff to devastating wounds, combined with sternguard with combiweapons and Oath of moment.... it was a horrible massacre...
And reroll wounds was the number one reason I eradicated the custodes. Not just because the dev weapons on sternguard but just plain stormbolters and assaultcannons, or my balistus dreads nuking his tank..... I didnt really need Lion el Jonson.... he did an objective and killed a lone custodes just because.... I even forgot I had an assassin...
SM seem to be doing really well in tournaments as well so I welcome this nerf. Reroll hits with the whole army is still a darn nice free buff
I'd lean toward bad. It wasn't as if SM armies were running away with things at tournies or anyone was complaining "man, this is unstoppable!"
Not like, say, Eldar dice manipulation or Knights being...Knights.
There were ways to change it more interestingly, say rerolling 1s to hit or wound or picking one or the other when using it, rather than simply saying "nah, cut it in half."
Have to see how the rest of the codex shapes up but out the gate it seems unnecessary.
It's a very strong assumption that codex OoM was locked in before the index dropped. It is strange to think that codex rules would be the same as index rules? As more codex release we'll see hot it pans ou. I think getting full re-rolls to hit on a unit of your choice is a great rule. Re roll wounds too, was a bit much regardless of were SM are in the 'comp meta'.. I've been on the giving and reciving end of it.
how bout we swap it out for fate dice?
@@doctordoubledakka3939 no thanks. Other factions having OP rules dosn't mean I want my faction to have them :)
@@doctordoubledakka3939or +1 to hit and wound from judgment tokens that stay on the unit until they die and your entire army gets that bonus
I dunno, played against my first SM army last week and I wasn’t prepared for him to table me by turn 3 without my melee nids army being able to ever touch him, my norn Emmisary didn’t even reach combat
I think this nerf is fair tbh, as long as it's balanced out in other ways elsewhere. Oath as it is is like casting Fortune on your whole army at once, while casting Doom on an enemy unit at any range. Any Farseer would be smacking his/her lips over a power like this. Now as long as Marines get some kind of buff to their datasheets overall it's all good, if not... then an already middle of the pack army might be clawing at the bottom rungs of the tournament winrates for a good while.
I've been getting back into miniature painting this year and considered playing 40k. However the fact they clearly just guessed balance for the new edition stops me. It wouldn't have been hard to consult people who actually play the game and get their input in the process. On paper this rule was clearly bad, just like gsc respawns. Shame they have not fixed the weird feeling of the game that squads are just carriers for the few members who career great gear.
Currently terrible and given that points have already been announced I dont see how things will move in right direction except if there’s some surprising data slate ability changes
My amateur gut instinct says when you declare an attack with a unit you choose to reroll hits OR wounds.
They could have made G man give a re roll wound with in an aura
no way. no matter what happens I dont want us going back to blobbing units around hqs. that was by far the worst part of 9th edition
I think it would be better to instead pick a friendly unit that gets full rerolls rather than selecting an enemy unit that all units get full rerolls on. This would at least feel better for the opposing players that dont get their favorite units singled out, and still fits with the feel of a space marine unit taking an "oath of moment"
as someone who causually plays only with my dad, and we both use Space marine detachments. I feel this was only changed for monetary gain. Both my father and i dont like the rerolling on hit, we would rather re roll on wounds.....
If you only play against your dad then why not just agree to only do it for re rolls to wound?
yes we would all like to reroll our wounds