36ft lb with a 14 grain pellet is 1070 ft per second, which is too fast, the pellet will not be stable as it's close to the speed of sound. A 21 grain pellet at 36ft lb travels at 870 ft per second which is close to a sub 12 ft lb gun. Therefore, you need to use 18gr pellets which will travel at the optimum speed of 950fps and give you a nice flat trajectory and accuracy.
I had a .22 rim fire and even with the weaker sub sonic you are looking at 90 ft/lb but then safety and backstop when in the field is a big consideration
You summed it up well at the end, quality air rifles, even sub 12ft lbs compared with live fire requires alot of serious engineering and therefore by comparison more expensive. Though I'm very pleased with my PCP and Springer Wiehrauch at the ranges I shoot at, I know that for me to hit a 5p past 40yds will be alot more difficult. The thing about FAC is that you are required to divulge your intention to own a more powerful gun. When the Nazi's took over Austria, due to a 'increase in gun crime', owners of firearms had to register at police stations. It wasn't long before the honest and law abiding citizens lost their means of protection from political tyranny by means of confiscation. We in the UK could legally own a handgun, provided you had a firearms certificate, now we cannot, mainly due to a failure of police vetting procedures. On this point, for me that's ok as only those who need to hit a human size target need to have a handgun; BUT, this has set a precedent. I think 15ft lbs with a margin error of 5% to compensate for different pellet weights and profiles, would be beneficial to airgunners. Once regulations are in place to restrict, the opposite is just not going to happen. Not surprisingly the 'them and us' scenario gives examples of the complete opposite. After the financial crash of 2007/8 banking regulations were considerably tightened, but now, some risky practices have been relaxed. Even buybacks in equities, used to be illegal, but not now. I have this notion, that the freedoms that we do have are only provisional.
Totally correct. The underlying reality is that the power that be limit law abiding citizens, not because of their concern for others, but because of concern for themselves. They do not remotely want to see the tax cows have the means to protect themselves from things like a tiny number of people being in control of fractional reserve banking, or the controlled collapse of fiat and transition to CBDC's and a social credit system. This is why the US population are a major headache for the parasitic elites, because millions of Americans are armed to the teeth and clinging to a well written US constitution. The Ozzys were hoodwinked out of their arms years ago and rendered defenceless like the UK, in the face of the tyranny of government. The answer is to recognise that you are a sovereign human being, despite what it says in capitals on your birth certificate and the maritime law and legalise that locks you into the debt slave system. Measures can, nay, must be taken to ensure your survival, should the day ever come that those who rule over us decide to cross the line and impinge on the lives of decent hard working people.
After sighting in at 60 feet, I could easily cover 5 shots with a nickel ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxQt2uORDRfFOVSrO4idv4B90ThT6EOnEL ! Truly a pleasure to shoot! Scope was easy to adjust for eye relief. Only problem the varmints must have seen it delivered lol!Update: So impressed with shot groups at 30 yards I purchased a Hammers 3×9 with adjustable Objective scope! Now a true nail driver!
One problem of owning a FAC air rifle in UK is selling it on to a limit market , as its got to be stated on your ticket. Cracking video , straight to the point with no waffling on.
Thanks Theo . Agree on birdshot vs 12 ft lb , bearing in mind the volume of shot and the relative velocites . Respect to the experts we see on here getting great results with sub 12ft air . Still wonder why a shotgunner who can launch 50g of sg at 1400 fps cannot be trusted with a 16ft lb air rifle .
SG is buck shot not bird shot. 50 grams what are you after elephants? 30/32 grams of NO6 or NO5 shot is considered bird shot . 21, 24, 28 grams of 6, 7, 7i/2, 8, or 9 are considered clay pigeon loads. I have killed fox rabbit pigeon grey squirrels crow magpie etc using 32 g of number 5 and modified chokes [I/2] if you cant do the job with this setup you should not be out there. Unless you are walking up rabbits in long grass or woodland the shotgun is not an efficient way of controlling rabbits. A .17HMR zeroed at 100 meters [yds] and shooting from a vehicle 80 metres out is deadly. The report confuses them and they don't run. I only use this method when we get a population explosion hot spot and the farmers are jumping up and down going "WHERES ALL THESE BLOODY RABBITS COMMING FROM" I keep cows not rabbits!!!!!. I personally would not shoot at anything other than tin cans with sub 12ftlbs but that's only my personal opinion
@@alanbush4192 Whilst I like your reply, I think you missed one side of his argument. He could have mentioned a 2-1/4oz (63g) 3-1/2" cartridge with almost 4000 ft-lb energy in comparison to a 12 ft-lb air rifle. The line has to be drawn somewhere and an FAC is fairly easy to get for an air rifle. Seems pretty reasonable as it is to me.
Haha true, I only use 32g 5 or 6 shot on shoot days and have had fox with success , the 17 hmr is brilliant, trying to get used to the 22 lr now for the benefits of being quiet but the trajectory is annoying in comparison with the hmr. You learn your hold overs but too much past 100 and it can get a bit hit and miss due to the consistency of the ammunition. The hmr is finger nail accurate at 100 generally. Since going fac 12 yrs ago, I only use the airguns now for rats and farmyard pigeons etc at close range. Have got fac air on the ticket but not seeing the point at the moment of going there.
I have 4 rifles on my cert and the fac air rifle is perfect for places where the 12ft/lb isn't quite enough and anything more powerful is too risky, they certainly have a place and are handy to have in the cabinet.
A shotgun owner in the UK can own a gun that will propel a couple of hundred projectiles or 9 ssg at 1400 fps . Wonder why we could not be trusted with a 16ft lb airgun shooting a single pellet at far less than that velocity . Only a thought . Before long we will be lucky to be allowed Nerf guns in the UK .
+arthur Sorry to say with the current administration we have here in the U.S., we may soon find ourselves in the same boat as you. Push for them to back off on the regulations when you vote, and make sure to get the word out to all your mates to do the same. It would be hard to bring down game with Nerf guns, wouldn't it. Nice reply there.
+oowee Think about Ssg and slug . Never mind all the rest . Shotgun delivers far more ft lb . Respect to air hunters dropping a pellet in a dime but overall an airgun has a fraction of the power of a shotgun whatever the ft lb of the airgun .
After many years of shooting pellet guns and owning a collection now I agree with your whole video even the Rimfire subject you can save a lot of time just watching this taking in the data provided
I don't know why but I find very satisfying watching this video, so every now and then I come here to watch it again. It explains very well the feeling of wanting more from your air rifle and then being a little disappointed after getting an fac air rifle. But in the end I'm happy with both non FAC air rifles and fac ones. And also with firearms. Thank you for posting the video
"Taking a step up to 30 ftps" meaning you had to apply for an FAC license which is not as easy as you make out. You must have lots of land or maybe Armed forces? Anyway, if you can share an easier (Legal) way of obtaining a FAC or 30FPS air rifle that would be great. Nice review 👍🏿
Got a lot of people at my shooting club with a fac license and they aren't that well off with lots of land. I guess them being an active member of a shooting club helps, being a hunter etc can help also. Not saying I know a lot about it anything, just saying it's possible without the examples you have provided.
The main advantage of the fac rifle here ( apart from the flatter trajectory) , unless you are a tremendous shot, is in shooting in less than optimum conditions. Adverse weather conditions will have less of an effect on the pellet. My sub 12 ftlb bsa ultra in .22 is capable of killing a rabbit much farther than I can accurately hit it in the head.
The unrestricted air rifle is an important tool for shooting pests like rabbits around stock, in flat terrain, and around farm buildings to prevent damage from ricochet. I use .22 lr most of the time, .17 hmr for longer ranges, and .223rem for rabbits and wallabies up to 250 m. Each has its benefits.
It's amazing how much air gun tech has come since this video was made . With my sub12 .22 at 35 yards ill get every pellet almost in the same hole (prob 10mm group) at 55 yards ill get 25mm groups
This is just epic, you're wondering about the accuracy when you're jamming lead pellets home like you're loading an bolt action rifle.. Pellets deform quite easily, load with a bit of care and see the groups get better
It's all down to pellet choice. I had a Rapid 12/220 in FAC (30fpe), and I didn't think it was well zeroed if I could not hit a tack at 50yds. I tried a number of pellets, and finally settled on Bisley Magnum (21gr). You can take rabbits at 70yds with holdover, it's just the holdover is somewhat more than my .22LR. If you want to bash rabbits at longer range, just get the HMR. It's a bunny killing machine and deadly accurate at range! But it is noisy!
Don Fripp this is why I’m buying an impact when my fac comes. Cheaper ammo than a rimmi. With the new power plenum on it too 👍. I’d never try to shoot a pigeon or a crow in a tree with a rimfire. Way too dangerous, you can however use an air rifle for that
Even sub 12 ft/lb rifles can cause erratic scattered groupings, it all depends of the type of pellet used on each and every individual rifle. On one of my rifles at tested 30 different brands and weights of pellet of which only 5 out of the 30 had reasonable groupings and one had consistent groupings at all ranges. Higher powered rifles also tend to prefer slugs which are becoming more common these days.
Have you tried the Bisley Bullet or Bisley Magnum in the good old Wiehrach, as many years ago I had an HW80K in .22 which had the Ox Spring fitted, not sure what ftlb it pushed, but was pretty powerful (although nowhere near 36 ftlb). That said, I would tell anyone it was under 12ftlb for legal reasons. The Bisley Bullet was excellent over a range of distances up to about 75 yds without needing to make any scope or aim adjustments.The grouping of the Bisley Magnum was also excellent although this gave a much shorter range really. Do they still make the Sabot; as these are a beast of an air rifle round? I only used my gun for target practice, not for hunting and I had a knock-down rabbit which was great fun until you shot the string and had to walk about 100 paces to tie it back on. On your video, it's really obvious that the Weihrauch hit the clay with considerably more force. Thanks for the video.
I disabled my comment blocker just to say this is how comparison spec vids should be done. Clear, concise, no messing, no teenage geeking. Good stuff. I'm considering a firearms certificate to get FAC airguns - do the police take each case individually then? So if I'm not stating an intention to buy a "real" gun I'm more likely to get approved? Thanks.
you will need a land owners [farmer] permission to shoot over their land. don't tell any lies on the application form if they catch you in a lie you are in serious trouble and wont get your cert. join your local rifle club as well
Excellent, thankyou. Really enjoyed this clear and informative post. I have a .22 Webley Vulcan and was thinking of trying to power it up but actually, keeping it as is for short range use is best, whilst using my .22 LR for open field hunting. FAC air rifle seems pointless. Kind regards, happy hunting.
I agree, pointless sums it up. Once you reach an optimum target distance with an air rifle, you might just as well use a shotgun for small game/ vermin or heavy grain live fire for larger game.
Very imformative, I am about to apply for both shotgun and FAC certicates, the latter for a 22. .17, 243 or 308, also going on a BASC DSC course winter 2017/ spring 2018. thanks for producing these great videos, will watch all asap, regards Mike (Hereford)
Some notes that may help: Pellet Power (fpe) = (Sqr(V(fps)) x Weight(gn))/450240 36 = Sqr(V(fps)) x 15 / 450240 Moving things around to get the velocity gives a velocity of 1040 fps for a 15 gr pellet. This is a trans-sonic velocity and causes pellet instability (which in turn affects groupings). Pellets should be kept subsonic to a maximum velocity of 950fps, but better still would be 900 fps to allow for a margin of error in variation in the speed of sound due to variations in climatic conditions. Therefore minimum pellet weight for a 36 fpe air rifle = (36 x 450240)/Sqr(900) = 20 gr (heavier pellets resulting in even slower velocities). If you know the energy your looking for, you can then get the pellet weight, which in turn allows you to pick a suitable calibre (ie a calibre in which the desired pellet weight is common). This all assumes that we are looking for the fastest subsonic speed possible because it'll give the flattest trajectory. So: 12 fpe lends itself to .17 calibre 36 fpe lends it self to .22 calibre 50 fpe lends itself to .25 calibre 70 fpe lends itself to .30 calibre
Yeah but there aren't really many options out there for heavy .22 that are accurate is all, just the bisley magnums or h&n baracuda match/ kodiaks which I've yet to see outshine the good all JSBs
An 18 grain pellet delivered at 950 fps gives bang on (or near enough) 36 fpe. There are plenty of good quality 18 grain .22 pellets out there. 36 fpe is standard issue for a .22 FAC air rifle. It's when you see 36 fpe on a .25 air rifle that you know you've got a .22 air rifle with a .25 barrel just stuck on it. If with the 18 grains your still getting pellet wobble, you may be able to tweak the regulator or hammer to reduce the delivered fpe. The up side of doing this is that it may (subject to method required) give you more shots. UA-cam probably has plenty demos on how to adjust/tune the HW100 to suit your preferred pellet.
I hate to burst your theory about deforming pellet skirt but the more likely reason for instability with 14 gn pelets at 36ft/lb is because the muzzle velocity is 1075fps which puts you dangerously close to the speed of sound at 1125fps. Any time you approach or cross the speed of sound, there is instability caused by acoustic shock wave throwing the projectile around & the worst case is a projectile which crosses the SOS in flight (not in the barrel) as it slows down when it would wobble like mad as the shock wave knocks it around. The 21gn pelets travelled at 875fps for 36ft/lb at 1M from the muzzle so they never did this...
I would bet that your accuracy issue is down to an over tight choke on the barrel. The bis mags are known to perform best in barrels with and overly tight choke. The line is often trotted out about "deformed shirts on lighter pellets" but h and n FTT are a firm antimony mix and will be fine sub sonic. Polish or change that barrel.
I recently up rated my Daystate Huntsman Midas on my ticket to 20.4ft lbs and using the same sovereigns 15.9grains seemed to have bad consistently average 10ft per second between shots, so I am going to try some JSB 18 grainers!
I've been a .22 air gun and .22 rimfire shooter for many years, to be honest I don't really see the point of obtaining a fac version of an air rifle, my reason is I've been told by many gunsmiths,dealers and shooters that an air rifle pellet especially at anything under 20grams will deform under the great pressures generated at anything over 18 to 20ftlbs which I guess can depend on the gun,a tuned springer or a pcp and the type and brand of pellets being used, so I decided to go for the .22 rimfire on my fac for use at my shooting club and long range rabbits on the farm, of course taking great care of my back ground and elevation (very important) has a rim fire .22 can be dangerous up to a mile if shot elevated. My sub 12ftlb air rifle is my go too for popping off the rabbits, maggie's and crows on my home alotment and around the farm buildings, at ranges up to 40m my prefered max distance to ensure a clean kill, it's perfect :)
Mac Payne hi mac your dead rite you've basically wrote everything I was going to say I have my fac and like you said there's no point having fac air rifle I use my rimfire for stuff like that and my hw100 or ultra for 15 yard shooting rats pidgin ect
i think when people get an FAC air rifle they go too high with the ftlbs i used to have an AirArms TX200 HC tuned perfect at 16 ftlbs it would drop anything and the accuracy was spot on
I have been thinking of getting an fac air rifle but think on the strength of your video I wont bother. I have some permission so probably would be able to get a licence however I think I will stick with my 12fbs gun for now. Very informative video. Thanks
I've been shot with 12 ft lb air rifle - it was uncomfortable to say the least but it was only one projectile to remove compared to a shotgun. Never mind being shot with turkey loads or buckshot....
I have given up my section 1 for now reluctantly . Not enough time for re zeroing etc . Shotties just point and press . I wish fac air could be available to the sg shooter as after all the velocity is less and range pretty similar . Strange laws . You can loose off a 3in sg shell at geese but not a 21gr pellet at a bunny . Nice video thank you sir .
Good demonstration. I've often wondered about the HW PCP rifles. The HW44 pistol is awesome. The spring-piston Weihrauch rifles (HW98, HW97K, HW90, HW80) have plenty of small varmint killing cred on my ranch. I've moved back to spring-piston for small varmints lately. As far as small bore powder burners, we use the .22mag. The Maximag, game point rounds are really devastating to coyote skulls. I save them in my skull cabinet. Back in the early 70s, we'd hunt rabbit with our Sheridan pump rifles in 5mm./open sights, offhand. Nice stick box you made there. I've got one I am starting for the garden area. Using all the trees stalks from rabbit gnawing. They get under the tree cages. and basically gird the bark of fruit trees, poplars, sycamore, and anything. Rats and mice do the same.
Not regulated by BATF. Airforceairguns.com is a good example of the US powerful air rifle. They make target air rifles as well. So, target, and hunting styles. Up until Air Arms, I've been shooting German made spring-piston since 1977. I used a Webley Hawk or Osprey back then. I switched to an Weihrauch 35E around High School graduation, age 17. We have city laws which are different than Federal Laws. So, liberal cities aren't friendly to any rifles, or air rifles. When you live offgrid, we shoot everything we can. Shotgun, rifle, handgun, and cannons. It's more gun friendly in conservative towns, cities, and rural areas. Powerful air rifles usually are forbidden to use inside city limits. Depends if your neighbors hate air gun noise + impact on target.
The new FAC air rifles that are launching 30 grain slugs at 70 ft lbs are much more what you were looking for all those years ago, but a 17 HMR is the best varmint round for UK quarry for sure. Sub 12 for close up personal stalking and 17 HMR for long range quarry.
You would love a Benjamin marauder .22 or .25. Dime sized groups at 20 yards and plenty of punch when tuned. Still like rimfire and centerfire rifles for longer distance hunting.
I am not such a great fan of small bore high powered air rifles. While the extra fpe enables more distance between you and a target as well as more knockdown power, the pellets are flying too fast and are too close or exceed the super sonic region. I find my .22 Hatsan PCP causes a lot of errant fliers and it is not uncommon to see pellets lodged in at the side (tumbling effect). I have found that heavier ammo works much better, but I cannot replicate the accuracy of my 20fpe Diana or 12fpe Weihrauch with the 35fpe PCP. I have a .25 PCP that works much better and I can drive tacks with the that. IMO, PCP is best served for larger bore pellet guns unless they are restricted in power (like they are in target air guns).
Okay, guys, I am in a small town called Charleston Oregon which is across the pond and across the country on the edge of the Pacific, just in case you were interested. So not only does the Federal Government not regulate Air pistols or rifles neither do the Individual States. In Oregon, all I need is a hunting license. Now some of the game has seasons and there are limits on the number per day you can bag and require a permit. But Rabbits are not one of them neither are squirrels. Geese and ducks and turkeys are under the permit zone. So I own a Gamo. Whisper 2nd Generation..22 calibers and .177 caliber and they are both Break Barrels. the .22 has a 10 shot magazine and has a scope my .177 doesn't have a scope but I only use it for target shooting and pigeons if they happen to land near the target area,(We have some really dumb pigeons who not only land in front of the target but a few actually land and roost on top of the plywood holding my target.)
Was the 36 pounder scope set for 35 yards and was the 12 pounder scope set for the 55 yard shot ? The power is there for the 12 pounder to reach the 55 yard target if the scope is set.
Good honest video .My pal has an FXBoss good shot count with integral regulator and 78ft/lbs very accurate up to 70 yrds but he now uses rimfires 99% of the time . FAC air guns have there uses but and greater distances rimfire wins 100%.
Different airguns and barrels prefer different pellets. Grouping of your fac gun is very very bad or was is storming? Here in the Netherlands we shoot 100 meter matches with high power airguns shooting 5 shot sub half inch groups at 100 meter, sometimes even less than 0.5 cm
The Police actually prefer 17 HMR, ammo is relatively expensive but with a 17 grain bullet it never ricochets. The bullet is moving so fast that is disintegrates. It’s also shoots super flat out to 200 yards. My current favorite rim fire is the new Winchester .17 WSM. It is rimfire, 20 grain bullet at 3000 fps! Beast. I have a Ruger 204 which pushes a bullet out at 4000 fps. Overkill. Monster on long range foxes though 😆👍🏻
Velocity is roughly equal to trajectory. If you have two different weight projectiles that are roughly the same velocity they will have roughly the same trajectory. The heavier projectile will have more energy/momentum upon impact. Minute factors that likely wouldnt majorly effect air rifles at nominal ranges: -surface area that creates drag ultimately lowering the velocity. -If you control for surface area then a heavier weight adds inertia which helps prevent the projectile from being pushed by the wind. You could get into drag coefficients to better compare the capabilities of different projectiles which always looks great on paper- but alot of times the most ballistically viable projectiles end up not being your guns favorite ammo and you trade off some accuracy. The best trajectory at a set velocity limit is the longest, thinnest (i.e best aerodynamix profile) and heaviest. This is best demonstrated in the 6.5cm vs .308win debate imho. At a set energy level it gets much trickier as you are now balancing trajectory with terminal effect and performance can be graded on a curve depnding on what factors you need the most like terminal effect vs trajectory i.e hollow nosed projectiles vs rounded nosed. In the small game world however... accuracy is king. A perfect shot at 12ftlb is just as lethal as a perfect shot at 36ftlb. If all thing are equal accuracy wise then id say 36ftlb would net more shot opportunities due to body shots being more viable... that being said- if you could get an extremely heavy .177 at 36ftlbs optimised for trajectory that would likely be the best Because effective range is roughly equal to hunting opportunity. Or you could be like me and just shoot em with a stick and skip all the math and equipment...
I would have liked to see what your FAC rifle would do with 18.13 gr Jumbo exacts. With my BSA Sportsman HV using holdover I get numerous groups MOA at 100 meters. The old BSA sends them down range at 916 fps. 21.14 at 875 fps. The BSA shoots best with 18.13s and I have yet to try 15.9 gr Exacts.
@@electoplater Easy enough! People get very excited about UK firearms regulations. Getting an FAC isn't difficult - you only need land over which to shoot or (as you say) join a club, which isn't a bad idea anyway as you get to use the range for zeroing. Everyone (unless you're a loony or have criminal record) can own a shotgun. Same with an air rifle.
Robert Stallard I’m afraid getting the land is the hardest part. I’ve had my shotgun cert for a year and a half now (which I applied for with the intention of going pigeon shooting) and I still haven’t been able to gain any permission lol. I’m 20 years old so the farmers take one look at that’s it haha. Wish I lived in USA with public land it would be actual heaven
@@pvegod1484 That's a shame. Whereabouts in the country are you? My woodland is overrun with squirrels (I've had 66 out in the past couple of months and it takes more of my time than I'd like). I'd happily take on a responsible 20 year-old to help control them!
You Sir, either have some crappy airguns or were not holding still for the shots. I did see there was fair amount of wind. Maybe give the barrels a clean and the groups will tighten. And try different pellets, you may just strike gold with that 1 or two pellets. One you have stick to those.
In my opinion if you move up to F.A.C then buy a .22 rim fire with a magazine and silencer, they are as quite as a 12ft lb silenced P.C.P. and very accurate. There is little point in messing about with F.A.C air rifles with an even more limited amount of shots per charge.
@Irish Viking Unless you're shooting birds out of trees. Then air is your only safe option as far as rifles are concerned. Pellets lose velocity very quickly and start to tumble, falling almost vertically, however fast they leave the barrel, whereas a bullet will keep spinning, keep stabilised and follow a ballistic arc back to earth, a long way from where it was fired, with more than enough energy to kill or maim somebody. I think PC Plod would not be impressed if I shot my 17hmr, 22lr, 223 or 308 into the air. It's the only use for my air rifle, but it's an important requirement that I can't meet any other way. You can roost shoot with air way more effectively than with a Hushpower 12g for instance, Hushpower may be quieter than a normal shotgun, but it's still plenty loud enough to scare everything away after the first shot.
I still don't understand the .22cal being popular in GB with 12fps guns. The extra weight hitting the target is always negated by the extremely loopy trajectory problems and necessary compensation.
My gun only puts out 32 foot pounds and is also chambered in .22 cal. I have gotten groups as small as .22 of an inch, or under 1/4" at 50 yards using 18.13 grain JSB Exact Jumbo heavy pellets. I must admit they are not all that tight but my average group at 50 yards is .35" of right around or 1/3". By the way, my gun is a break barrel. In case you are wandering, my gun is the unassuming Hatsan 125. I find that mine, at 50 yards drops just slightly less than yours does at 55. I have gone out to 80 yards once but can't recall how much it dropped at that distance. Mine propells the 18.13 grain pellets out the muzzle at about 900 fps. which gives it just over 32 foot pounds of energy. I find that my gun likes the JSB Exact pellets best for accuracy sake so I use them for the longer shots. I know you may consider my gun a cheap model but I can comfortably get head shots on squirrels at 50 yards out of it. What more can one ask. I would like a nice wood stock but I would grab my synthetic stock gun for the field as I wouldn't want to damage a nice wooden stock. I also enjoy the convenience of a completely self contained gun, but I can see where rapid follow up shots can be an advantage. The reason I mentioned my gun at all is with a 30 + foot pound air rifle, you can stretch the distances out farther than with lower powered guns. The key is finding a pellet that shoots accurately out of your gun, while giving you the trajectory you are looking for. Have you considered slightly lighter pellets that have thicker shirts for their weight? They may be more accurate while providing a flatter trajectory. Though I have never done this test, it is widely accepted that pellets lose accuracy when they exceed 900 fps. For that reason, I stick with the JSB Exact pellets as they take me right up to the 900 fps. mark without going over it. Since your F.A.C. gun provides you with 36 foot pounds, you should be able to stretch your shooting distance out a little farther than I can with my gun. By the way, I've found that at greater distances, I just use the mill dots. If I sight my gun in at 18 yards, I find that at 30 yards, my point of impact is exactly 1 mill dot low, so I just aim 1 mill dot high and my p.o.i is right on. At 50 yards, I aim 2 mill dots high, and so on. To tell the truth, unless I'm shooting from a prone position or from a bench, I have no business trying to take out small game beyond 50 yards anyway. For medium sized game, we should easily be able to hit the mark out to 75 yards or so. Practice shooting at different distances using your mill dots and I think you'll be confident taking shots at 75 yards and beyond. Thanks for posting your video. I enjoyed your detailed explanation. Here in the U.S., my reason for owning a magnum air rifle is not because I would need a permit for a rim fire or center fire, it's because I live in the city limits where it's not legal to discharge my firearms. I can however, legally shoot or, hunt on my property with this air rifle. Outside of the city limits I can use my firearms and fortunately, they don't require a permit for firearms here. There however, as I'm sure you know are some benefits to owning air rifles. No need to go over that at this time but again, I did enjoy your video.
+Brook Smith yeah I know about the webley patriot .25 really wanted one of those awhile back but it's basically impossible to get one of those nowadays, but as fas as I know that's the most powerful Spring piston out there and in .25, in .177 will be overkill and .22 you'll get 28fpe
F.A.C appears to have more punch within 45ft. But for the extra power doesent seem to acheive much greater distance. I guess a pellet being so light can only be pushed so far. So your right. Better going to F.A.C Rimfire 1st. But yet Its a whole new ball game and demands a lot more commitment if thats your goal. Myself i was contemplating that and to eventually move up to centre fire. But like all dreams you have to have the time and commitment and im just not able to. Something to consider before you start and waste your time and money.
I was wondering why you applied for a fac on a 36 ftlb air rifle since it is rather easy to get a rimfire if you have experience and land with a good reason to own a rifle or shotgun my friend has just moved up on caliber from .22lr to a .223/5.56 rifle takes both ammunition and will be applying for a .308 soonish i think as long as you progress up the calibers/power you would have no problem instead of applying for a .338 lapua for your first rifle haha you might get rejected
The pellet drop at longer distances is a “Chair Gun” pellet calculator for pellets distance and drop, plus why are you calling the “Magazine” a clip, fire arms clips are like the lee enfield reloading “clips” not a magazine as thats what there to reload, good content not bad vide .
Most pellets are made from soft lead alloys, so that they easily expand to seal the bore. At FAC velocities however they are too soft to grip the rifling properly, hence the loss of accuracy. This is the same principal as soft alloys in low velocity pistol bullets and hard alloys such as linotype in cast rifle bullets. I still have a 20 year old tin of high speed match pellets for air rifles incidentally, with the matching tin of softer air pistol pellets!
I am like you, I have on my ticket FAC Air rifle + .22LR + .17HMR and agree, air rifles are a damned lot more expensive and need more looking after. However, the ammo is dramatically cheaper. I had to have the FAC Air rifle as unfortunately one of my permissions is only authorised for this but would rather use rimfire any day. All down to personal preference and having time to tweak the rifles to the best settings. Great video by the way :-)
airguns all the way when the gun goes off the animals run with my airguns I get a second shot even on there friends they all end up dead NO BOOM!!!!!!!!!
Magazines are feed mechanisms, sometimes with the use of a spring - as per the mags on my BSA PCP rifles ~ The Air Arms rifle shown in the video, (which I also own), has a magazine that's not spring loaded. A clip is simply a storage device that holds rounds of anmmunition, ready for insertion into the magazine or the firearms cylinder.
Thank you for taking the time to explain things as you see it and also for the supporting information ~ I looked into this some time ago and spoke to many people in the Air rifle and firearms industry, on why there was confusion on the correct term / usage, for 'Magazines & Clips' I've often watched many films, documentaries and even talks, where someone is loading their firearm with a spring loaded magazine and referred to it as a 'clip'. This was obviously incorrect as, (using your example), it was clearly a magazine, because a spring was involved. I admit that confusion can exist as certain countries will use different terminology. If I want to order a new 'magazine' for the Air rifle shown in the video ~ nobody will stock, advertise or sell it as a 'clip' ~ I can see your point about a spring being used, but I can't remember ever seeing a non-spring magazine being sold as a clip. Interesting point for further research ~ I'm going to speak to others who know more than I and hopefully will post back soon. All the best.
excellent video. I am going through the same thoughts. I want to be able to take rabbits at 60m or so. The 12 ftlb 177 will do it but i need a bench rest and still day.
I've a Huntsman classic FAC running at 30.7ftlbs with 16grain JSBS for 929 fps, but am going to start using the 18.13 grain version as these just go straight through pigeons and don't deliver enough shock on impact as I've had a few fly then die. which with that kind of power you should be able to shoot them anywhere and drop them instantly, not have to take head shots!
What distance are you shooting them from? most likely the reason they're not dropping is because all the energy isn't being transferred to the bird, probably the pellet just goes through the bird because sub 12 just drops them with a heart/lung shot
a no bull honest vid,you pays your money and takes your choice,having been a f.a.c. holder, a rimfire for the longer ranges,but getting a f.a.c. nowadays.
AA S410 Xtra in .22 turned down to 19ftlb will still shoot 16g AA field diabolos with out flying. You get more shots due to reduced pressure. You do have to give it some hold over out to 45-50 yrds but no more than a heavy pellet at 30ftlb. Anything over 50yrds and I use a .22 rimfire. 19ftlb is ideal for rats with N/V, the trajectory is so straight you don't have to worry about judging distance.
Good video, gives you abit of food for thought but couldn't help but notice the first shot he claimed to be was wrong so going 2 clicks left actually made his 2and shot go to the right.????
I wish we had 12 ft lbs options here in the US for us backyard shooters, over here it is all about feet per second, the more the better or everyone seems to think. There are a few 12 ft lbs guns here but they normally are high-end guns, you just will not see that in a Crosman or Gamo
Hi... late reply... Crosman 2250 XL which I use makes about 8 - 9 ft lbs and is extremely accurate in the back yard without being powerful enough to pass through quarry. It's not the best looking gun in the world, but it puts 'lead in the head'.
IMO Not Very Good Groups at all for 35, 40, & 50 yrds... I would start running thru a checklist of things that it could be to narrow it down. Plus id start by losing the Silencer until after the gun was grouping to my liking IF POSSIBLE. Then add it only after the groups are to my liking and go from there.
Hi Nigel, interesting points made about drop off, I considering same jump but wanted the quietness of an air rifle as opposed to rimfire. Im guessing that .177 or even a .20 caliber might of been a better choice if a suitable pellet could be found??
A .22 subsonic is as quiet as any air rifle. Both got pros and cons but for noise, with a .22lr and a moderator, all you hear is firing pin click then the thump of the bullet hitting the target. Drops off quick too, but with a lrf, and a mil dot reticle with a bit of practice reliable shots can be taken out way past 100m.
I can't see the point in getting an FAC license just to have a more powerful air rifle and this video confirms it. Better to just go for shotgun and/or "real" guns for all the fuss and £££ involved.
It's also problematic for people not bound by the UK laws - If I search for reviews on air rifles, more often than not It will be a UK review for a non-FAC model.. hiding the reviews for the full power ones..
A very well put together piece, which answered most of the questions I had been pondering. Did you have the Weihrauch uprated to 36p/ft, or did you buy it new/secondhand already uprated.
I have 15ftlbs unregulated pcp air rifle indian brand but i need more power minimum 20ftlbs how can i modified to get power please tell me if possible.
I think you will find that if you changed your ammo to air arms field you will drastically reduce the group size, and are you sure its 36 ftlb, 27 is the norm. phil
You will be better off getting a FX impact or fx crown or fx wildcat in high power as you can adjust the regulator & the hammer spring & you can change barrel liners to improve accuracy & easily change caliber & probe. FX is the best air rifle make you can buy honestly you won’t regret buying one 👌
At 36ft/lb you are really limiting your pellet choice to heavy pellets - try using bisley magnums for that power - they are the best over 32ft/lbs. Also you're losing the main benefit of fac air rifles at that power - a nice flat trajectory. If you backed it off to 26ft/lb which is the sweet spot for lighter pellets without skirt deformation - using air arms field (JSB's) with my Rapid I was easily shooting rabbits accurately to 70yards+ and you get a nice supersonic crack as the pellet is travelling much faster. Really handy for places you can't use the rimfire. Thats a very nice weihrauch though.
Nick Lukehurst could not agree more it was the main point of the vid to be careful with higher powered fac air rifles so less is actually more ! - Thanks for watching
ACampfireProduction I was gonna say I can hit things 100 yards off with my beeman crowmagnum 27ft/lbs .22 I live in the USA my weihrauchs (R1 ,R9) .177 have 14 ft/lbs and the crowmagnum (theoben) has 27 ft/lbs get more pellets and shoot more that hw100 needs better pellets
+Nick Lukehurst I've used the magnums I've only ever shot about 50 pellets out of the tin. weight - 21.14 gr for my .22 I was missing everything. however using a lighter pellet I've no problems. Cheers for your input. atvb John
Every barrel is always going to be different and will like different pellets. It may prefer a certain pellet at a low velocity or hate it at a faster velocity
The .17 HMR is the best. No ricochet like a .22 Lr, the .17 simply blows up on hitting the ground! Safe. It shoots utterly flat out to 100 yards but highly effective even at 200 yards! Rabbits hit in the head are utterly dead! Air rifles are sub 50 yard tools, 12 FB are 30 yards, FAC maybe 50 yards. Around barns etc they are awesome but if you are out in the fields you need a rim fire.
36ft lb with a 14 grain pellet is 1070 ft per second, which is too fast, the pellet will not be stable as it's close to the speed of sound.
A 21 grain pellet at 36ft lb travels at 870 ft per second which is close to a sub 12 ft lb gun.
Therefore, you need to use 18gr pellets which will travel at the optimum speed of 950fps and give you a nice flat trajectory and accuracy.
Good observation! I concur.
@@liverpoolscottish6430 good point, also using a PCP and most maximum filled magazines, recharging the air tank would require frequent filling.
I had a .22 rim fire and even with the weaker sub sonic you are looking at 90 ft/lb but then safety and backstop when in the field is a big consideration
You summed it up well at the end, quality air rifles, even sub 12ft lbs compared with live fire requires alot of serious engineering and therefore by comparison more expensive. Though I'm very pleased with my PCP and Springer Wiehrauch at the ranges I shoot at, I know that for me to hit a 5p past 40yds will be alot more difficult. The thing about FAC is that you are required to divulge your intention to own a more powerful gun. When the Nazi's took over Austria, due to a 'increase in gun crime', owners of firearms had to register at police stations. It wasn't long before the honest and law abiding citizens lost their means of protection from political tyranny by means of confiscation. We in the UK could legally own a handgun, provided you had a firearms certificate, now we cannot, mainly due to a failure of police vetting procedures. On this point, for me that's ok as only those who need to hit a human size target need to have a handgun; BUT, this has set a precedent. I think 15ft lbs with a margin error of 5% to compensate for different pellet weights and profiles, would be beneficial to airgunners. Once regulations are in place to restrict, the opposite is just not going to happen. Not surprisingly the 'them and us' scenario gives examples of the complete opposite. After the financial crash of 2007/8 banking regulations were considerably tightened, but now, some risky practices have been relaxed. Even buybacks in equities, used to be illegal, but not now. I have this notion, that the freedoms that we do have are only provisional.
Totally correct. The underlying reality is that the power that be limit law abiding citizens, not because of their concern for others, but because of concern for themselves. They do not remotely want to see the tax cows have the means to protect themselves from things like a tiny number of people being in control of fractional reserve banking, or the controlled collapse of fiat and transition to CBDC's and a social credit system. This is why the US population are a major headache for the parasitic elites, because millions of Americans are armed to the teeth and clinging to a well written US constitution. The Ozzys were hoodwinked out of their arms years ago and rendered defenceless like the UK, in the face of the tyranny of government. The answer is to recognise that you are a sovereign human being, despite what it says in capitals on your birth certificate and the maritime law and legalise that locks you into the debt slave system. Measures can, nay, must be taken to ensure your survival, should the day ever come that those who rule over us decide to cross the line and impinge on the lives of decent hard working people.
After sighting in at 60 feet, I could easily cover 5 shots with a nickel ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxQt2uORDRfFOVSrO4idv4B90ThT6EOnEL ! Truly a pleasure to shoot! Scope was easy to adjust for eye relief. Only problem the varmints must have seen it delivered lol!Update: So impressed with shot groups at 30 yards I purchased a Hammers 3×9 with adjustable Objective scope! Now a true nail driver!
One problem of owning a FAC air rifle in UK is selling it on to a limit market , as its got to be stated on your ticket.
Cracking video , straight to the point with no waffling on.
A secured metal lockable locker or safe which will be inspected periodically can be added to the FAC cost.
yes and you are not allowed to deregulate it to 12 ft lbs either once a FAC always a FAC crazy but true
@@alanbush4192 and moderator is the same.
Thanks Theo . Agree on birdshot vs 12 ft lb , bearing in mind the volume of shot and the relative velocites . Respect to the experts we see on here getting great results with sub 12ft air . Still wonder why a shotgunner who can launch 50g of sg at 1400 fps cannot be trusted with a 16ft lb air rifle .
SG is buck shot not bird shot. 50 grams what are you after elephants? 30/32 grams of NO6 or NO5 shot is considered bird shot . 21, 24, 28 grams of 6, 7, 7i/2, 8, or 9 are considered clay pigeon loads. I have killed fox rabbit pigeon grey squirrels crow magpie etc using 32 g of number 5 and modified chokes [I/2] if you cant do the job with this setup you should not be out there. Unless you are walking up rabbits in long grass or woodland the shotgun is not an efficient way of controlling rabbits. A .17HMR zeroed at 100 meters [yds] and shooting from a vehicle 80 metres out is deadly. The report confuses them and they don't run. I only use this method when we get a population explosion hot spot and the farmers are jumping up and down going "WHERES ALL THESE BLOODY RABBITS COMMING FROM" I keep cows not rabbits!!!!!. I personally would not shoot at anything other than tin cans with sub 12ftlbs but that's only my personal opinion
@@alanbush4192 Whilst I like your reply, I think you missed one side of his argument. He could have mentioned a 2-1/4oz (63g) 3-1/2" cartridge with almost 4000 ft-lb energy in comparison to a 12 ft-lb air rifle.
The line has to be drawn somewhere and an FAC is fairly easy to get for an air rifle. Seems pretty reasonable as it is to me.
Haha true, I only use 32g 5 or 6 shot on shoot days and have had fox with success , the 17 hmr is brilliant, trying to get used to the 22 lr now for the benefits of being quiet but the trajectory is annoying in comparison with the hmr. You learn your hold overs but too much past 100 and it can get a bit hit and miss due to the consistency of the ammunition. The hmr is finger nail accurate at 100 generally. Since going fac 12 yrs ago, I only use the airguns now for rats and farmyard pigeons etc at close range.
Have got fac air on the ticket but not seeing the point at the moment of going there.
I have 4 rifles on my cert and the fac air rifle is perfect for places where the 12ft/lb isn't quite enough and anything more powerful is too risky, they certainly have a place and are handy to have in the cabinet.
A shotgun owner in the UK can own a gun that will propel a couple of hundred projectiles or 9 ssg at 1400 fps . Wonder why we could not be trusted with a 16ft lb airgun shooting a single pellet at far less than that velocity . Only a thought . Before long we will be lucky to be allowed Nerf guns in the UK .
Air rifles with 12ft pounds has a surprising amount of penetration compared to a 12 bore with bird shot
+arthur Sorry to say with the current administration we have here in the U.S., we may soon find ourselves in the same boat as you. Push for them to back off on the regulations when you vote, and make sure to get the word out to all your mates to do the same. It would be hard to bring down game with Nerf guns, wouldn't it. Nice reply there.
+arthur I would rather be shot at by a 12g at 100 yards than a 12ftlb air rifle.
I would rather not be shot at at all mind.
+oowee Think about Ssg and slug . Never mind all the rest . Shotgun delivers far more ft lb . Respect to air hunters dropping a pellet in a dime but overall an airgun has a fraction of the power of a shotgun whatever the ft lb of the airgun .
+oowee And having been shot with 12ft lb airgun in the arse and legs as a kid ,I would opt for that any day.
After many years of shooting pellet guns and owning a collection now I agree with your whole video even the Rimfire subject you can save a lot of time just watching this taking in the data provided
How the hell did you kill 100 of rabbits whit that miserable accuracy 🤣🤣🤣
They must have been really big soft rabbits
Caged bunnies
I don't know why but I find very satisfying watching this video, so every now and then I come here to watch it again.
It explains very well the feeling of wanting more from your air rifle and then being a little disappointed after getting an fac air rifle. But in the end I'm happy with both non FAC air rifles and fac ones. And also with firearms.
Thank you for posting the video
"Taking a step up to 30 ftps" meaning you had to apply for an FAC license which is not as easy as you make out. You must have lots of land or maybe Armed forces? Anyway, if you can share an easier (Legal) way of obtaining a FAC or 30FPS air rifle that would be great. Nice review 👍🏿
Got a lot of people at my shooting club with a fac license and they aren't that well off with lots of land. I guess them being an active member of a shooting club helps, being a hunter etc can help also. Not saying I know a lot about it anything, just saying it's possible without the examples you have provided.
The main advantage of the fac rifle here ( apart from the flatter trajectory) , unless you are a tremendous shot, is in shooting in less than optimum conditions. Adverse weather conditions will have less of an effect on the pellet. My sub 12 ftlb bsa ultra in .22 is capable of killing a rabbit much farther than I can accurately hit it in the head.
The unrestricted air rifle is an important tool for shooting pests like rabbits around stock, in flat terrain, and around farm buildings to prevent damage from ricochet. I use .22 lr most of the time, .17 hmr for longer ranges, and .223rem for rabbits and wallabies up to 250 m. Each has its benefits.
It's amazing how much air gun tech has come since this video was made . With my sub12 .22 at 35 yards ill get every pellet almost in the same hole (prob 10mm group) at 55 yards ill get 25mm groups
This is just epic, you're wondering about the accuracy when you're jamming lead pellets home like you're loading an bolt action rifle.. Pellets deform quite easily, load with a bit of care and see the groups get better
It's all down to pellet choice. I had a Rapid 12/220 in FAC (30fpe), and I didn't think it was well zeroed if I could not hit a tack at 50yds. I tried a number of pellets, and finally settled on Bisley Magnum (21gr). You can take rabbits at 70yds with holdover, it's just the holdover is somewhat more than my .22LR.
If you want to bash rabbits at longer range, just get the HMR. It's a bunny killing machine and deadly accurate at range! But it is noisy!
Don Fripp this is why I’m buying an impact when my fac comes. Cheaper ammo than a rimmi. With the new power plenum on it too 👍. I’d never try to shoot a pigeon or a crow in a tree with a rimfire. Way too dangerous, you can however use an air rifle for that
@Hifi Select reviews air arms 410 has a problem with the bolt loading i had one for years
Even sub 12 ft/lb rifles can cause erratic scattered groupings, it all depends of the type of pellet used on each and every individual rifle. On one of my rifles at tested 30 different brands and weights of pellet of which only 5 out of the 30 had reasonable groupings and one had consistent groupings at all ranges. Higher powered rifles also tend to prefer slugs which are becoming more common these days.
Have you tried the Bisley Bullet or Bisley Magnum in the good old Wiehrach, as many years ago I had an HW80K in .22 which had the Ox Spring fitted, not sure what ftlb it pushed, but was pretty powerful (although nowhere near 36 ftlb). That said, I would tell anyone it was under 12ftlb for legal reasons. The Bisley Bullet was excellent over a range of distances up to about 75 yds without needing to make any scope or aim adjustments.The grouping of the Bisley Magnum was also excellent although this gave a much shorter range really. Do they still make the Sabot; as these are a beast of an air rifle round? I only used my gun for target practice, not for hunting and I had a knock-down rabbit which was great fun until you shot the string and had to walk about 100 paces to tie it back on. On your video, it's really obvious that the Weihrauch hit the clay with considerably more force. Thanks for the video.
I disabled my comment blocker just to say this is how comparison spec vids should be done. Clear, concise, no messing, no teenage geeking. Good stuff.
I'm considering a firearms certificate to get FAC airguns - do the police take each case individually then? So if I'm not stating an intention to buy a "real" gun I'm more likely to get approved? Thanks.
you will need a land owners [farmer] permission to shoot over their land. don't tell any lies on the application form if they catch you in a lie you are in serious trouble and wont get your cert. join your local rifle club as well
Excellent, thankyou. Really enjoyed this clear and informative post. I have a .22 Webley Vulcan and was thinking of trying to power it up but actually, keeping it as is for short range use is best, whilst using my .22 LR for open field hunting. FAC air rifle seems pointless. Kind regards, happy hunting.
I agree, pointless sums it up. Once you reach an optimum target distance with an air rifle, you might just as well use a shotgun for small game/ vermin or heavy grain live fire for larger game.
Very imformative, I am about to apply for both shotgun and FAC certicates, the latter for a 22. .17, 243 or 308, also going on a BASC DSC course winter 2017/ spring 2018. thanks for producing these great videos, will watch all asap, regards Mike (Hereford)
JSB 18grs work great in my FX Wildcat. 1/2 inch groups at 50 yards is common 910fps
just found you channel then they just stops, were are you great presentation great topics👌👍👍
Some notes that may help:
Pellet Power (fpe) = (Sqr(V(fps)) x Weight(gn))/450240
36 = Sqr(V(fps)) x 15 / 450240
Moving things around to get the velocity gives a velocity of 1040 fps for a 15 gr pellet.
This is a trans-sonic velocity and causes pellet instability (which in turn affects groupings). Pellets should be kept subsonic to a maximum velocity of 950fps, but better still would be 900 fps to allow for a margin of error in variation in the speed of sound due to variations in climatic conditions.
Therefore minimum pellet weight for a 36 fpe air rifle = (36 x 450240)/Sqr(900) = 20 gr (heavier pellets resulting in even slower velocities).
If you know the energy your looking for, you can then get the pellet weight, which in turn allows you to pick a suitable calibre (ie a calibre in which the desired pellet weight is common). This all assumes that we are looking for the fastest subsonic speed possible because it'll give the flattest trajectory.
So:
12 fpe lends itself to .17 calibre
36 fpe lends it self to .22 calibre
50 fpe lends itself to .25 calibre
70 fpe lends itself to .30 calibre
Yup a .22 at 36fpe is too much
36fpe for .22 is fine. Just use a heavier pellet.
Yeah but there aren't really many options out there for heavy .22 that are accurate is all, just the bisley magnums or h&n baracuda match/ kodiaks which I've yet to see outshine the good all JSBs
An 18 grain pellet delivered at 950 fps gives bang on (or near enough) 36 fpe. There are plenty of good quality 18 grain .22 pellets out there.
36 fpe is standard issue for a .22 FAC air rifle. It's when you see 36 fpe on a .25 air rifle that you know you've got a .22 air rifle with a .25 barrel just stuck on it.
If with the 18 grains your still getting pellet wobble, you may be able to tweak the regulator or hammer to reduce the delivered fpe. The up side of doing this is that it may (subject to method required) give you more shots. UA-cam probably has plenty demos on how to adjust/tune the HW100 to suit your preferred pellet.
+Richard UK Well put Richard.
I hate to burst your theory about deforming pellet skirt but the more likely reason for instability with 14 gn pelets at 36ft/lb is because the muzzle velocity is 1075fps which puts you dangerously close to the speed of sound at 1125fps. Any time you approach or cross the speed of sound, there is instability caused by acoustic shock wave throwing the projectile around & the worst case is a projectile which crosses the SOS in flight (not in the barrel) as it slows down when it would wobble like mad as the shock wave knocks it around. The 21gn pelets travelled at 875fps for 36ft/lb at 1M from the muzzle so they never did this...
I would bet that your accuracy issue is down to an over tight choke on the barrel. The bis mags are known to perform best in barrels with and overly tight choke. The line is often trotted out about "deformed shirts on lighter pellets" but h and n FTT are a firm antimony mix and will be fine sub sonic. Polish or change that barrel.
I recently up rated my Daystate Huntsman Midas on my ticket to 20.4ft lbs and using the same sovereigns 15.9grains seemed to have bad consistently average 10ft per second between shots, so I am going to try some JSB 18 grainers!
I've been a .22 air gun and .22 rimfire shooter for many years, to be honest I don't really see the point of obtaining a fac version of an air rifle, my reason is I've been told by many gunsmiths,dealers and shooters that an air rifle pellet especially at anything under 20grams will deform under the great pressures generated at anything over 18 to 20ftlbs which I guess can depend on the gun,a tuned springer or a pcp and the type and brand of pellets being used, so I decided to go for the .22 rimfire on my fac for use at my shooting club and long range rabbits on the farm, of course taking great care of my back ground and elevation (very important) has a rim fire .22 can be dangerous up to a mile if shot elevated. My sub 12ftlb air rifle is my go too for popping off the rabbits, maggie's and crows on my home alotment and around the farm buildings, at ranges up to 40m my prefered max distance to ensure a clean kill, it's perfect :)
Mac Payne hi mac your dead rite you've basically wrote everything I was going to say I have my fac and like you said there's no point having fac air rifle I use my rimfire for stuff like that and my hw100 or ultra for 15 yard shooting rats pidgin ect
i think when people get an FAC air rifle they go too high with the ftlbs i used to have an AirArms TX200 HC tuned perfect at 16 ftlbs it would drop anything and the accuracy was spot on
hi, thanks for the insight into this topic. Been trying to weigh up the pros and cons of this for a long time. keep up the good research.
I have been thinking of getting an fac air rifle but think on the strength of your video I wont bother. I have some permission so probably would be able to get a licence however I think I will stick with my 12fbs gun for now. Very informative video. Thanks
I've been shot with 12 ft lb air rifle - it was uncomfortable to say the least but it was only one projectile to remove compared to a shotgun. Never mind being shot with turkey loads or buckshot....
I have given up my section 1 for now reluctantly . Not enough time for re zeroing etc . Shotties just point and press . I wish fac air could be available to the sg shooter as after all the velocity is less and range pretty similar . Strange laws . You can loose off a 3in sg shell at geese but not a 21gr pellet at a bunny . Nice video thank you sir .
Good demonstration. I've often wondered about the HW PCP rifles. The HW44 pistol is awesome. The spring-piston Weihrauch rifles (HW98, HW97K, HW90, HW80) have plenty of small varmint killing cred on my ranch. I've moved back to spring-piston for small varmints lately. As far as small bore powder burners, we use the .22mag. The Maximag, game point rounds are really devastating to coyote skulls. I save them in my skull cabinet. Back in the early 70s, we'd hunt rabbit with our Sheridan pump rifles in 5mm./open sights, offhand. Nice stick box you made there. I've got one I am starting for the garden area. Using all the trees stalks from rabbit gnawing. They get under the tree cages. and basically gird the bark of fruit trees, poplars, sycamore, and anything. Rats and mice do the same.
correct me if I'm wrong but are air rifles in America not regulated like they are here in the UK ?
Not regulated by BATF. Airforceairguns.com is a good example of the US powerful air rifle. They make target air rifles as well. So, target, and hunting styles. Up until Air Arms, I've been shooting German made spring-piston since 1977. I used a Webley Hawk or Osprey back then. I switched to an Weihrauch 35E around High School graduation, age 17.
We have city laws which are different than Federal Laws. So, liberal cities aren't friendly to any rifles, or air rifles. When you live offgrid, we shoot everything we can. Shotgun, rifle, handgun, and cannons. It's more gun friendly in conservative towns, cities, and rural areas. Powerful air rifles usually are forbidden to use inside city limits. Depends if your neighbors hate air gun noise + impact on target.
Proud to say we're both using the same scope, great some by far my best !
Excellent video mate . Very enlightening 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
The new FAC air rifles that are launching 30 grain slugs at 70 ft lbs are much more what you were looking for all those years ago, but a 17 HMR is the best varmint round for UK quarry for sure. Sub 12 for close up personal stalking and 17 HMR for long range quarry.
You would love a Benjamin marauder .22 or .25. Dime sized groups at 20 yards and plenty of punch when tuned. Still like rimfire and centerfire rifles for longer distance hunting.
I am not such a great fan of small bore high powered air rifles. While the extra fpe enables more distance between you and a target as well as more knockdown power, the pellets are flying too fast and are too close or exceed the super sonic region. I find my .22 Hatsan PCP causes a lot of errant fliers and it is not uncommon to see pellets lodged in at the side (tumbling effect). I have found that heavier ammo works much better, but I cannot replicate the accuracy of my 20fpe Diana or 12fpe Weihrauch with the 35fpe PCP. I have a .25 PCP that works much better and I can drive tacks with the that. IMO, PCP is best served for larger bore pellet guns unless they are restricted in power (like they are in target air guns).
Okay, guys, I am in a small town called Charleston Oregon which is across the pond and across the country on the edge of the Pacific, just in case you were interested. So not only does the Federal Government not regulate Air pistols or rifles neither do the Individual States. In Oregon, all I need is a hunting license. Now some of the game has seasons and there are limits on the number per day you can bag and require a permit. But Rabbits are not one of them neither are squirrels. Geese and ducks and turkeys are under the permit zone. So I own a Gamo. Whisper 2nd Generation..22 calibers and .177 caliber and they are both Break Barrels. the .22 has a 10 shot magazine and has a scope my .177 doesn't have a scope but I only use it for target shooting and pigeons if they happen to land near the target area,(We have some really dumb pigeons who not only land in front of the target but a few actually land and roost on top of the plywood holding my target.)
Was the 36 pounder scope set for 35 yards and was the 12 pounder scope set for the 55 yard shot ?
The power is there for the 12 pounder to reach the 55 yard target if the scope is set.
Good honest video .My pal has an FXBoss good shot count with integral regulator and 78ft/lbs very accurate up to 70 yrds but he now uses rimfires 99% of the time .
FAC air guns have there uses but and greater distances rimfire wins 100%.
Different airguns and barrels prefer different pellets. Grouping of your fac gun is very very bad or was is storming? Here in the Netherlands we shoot 100 meter matches with high power airguns shooting 5 shot sub half inch groups at 100 meter, sometimes even less than 0.5 cm
The Police actually prefer 17 HMR, ammo is relatively expensive but with a 17 grain bullet it never ricochets. The bullet is moving so fast that is disintegrates. It’s also shoots super flat out to 200 yards. My current favorite rim fire is the new Winchester .17 WSM. It is rimfire, 20 grain bullet at 3000 fps! Beast. I have a Ruger 204 which pushes a bullet out at 4000 fps. Overkill. Monster on long range foxes though 😆👍🏻
Great vid,after years of using a 12ft/lb Air Arms i have been looking at either a FAC air rifle or possibly a .22 rimfire..
If long range is all you're worried about just jump straight into a center fire. With FAC air rifles it's just easier to make those 50-80yd shots
+AirgunnerCA do you mean rimfire?
Velocity is roughly equal to trajectory.
If you have two different weight projectiles that are roughly the same velocity they will have roughly the same trajectory. The heavier projectile will have more energy/momentum upon impact.
Minute factors that likely wouldnt majorly effect air rifles at nominal ranges:
-surface area that creates drag ultimately lowering the velocity.
-If you control for surface area then a heavier weight adds inertia which helps prevent the projectile from being pushed by the wind.
You could get into drag coefficients to better compare the capabilities of different projectiles which always looks great on paper- but alot of times the most ballistically viable projectiles end up not being your guns favorite ammo and you trade off some accuracy.
The best trajectory at a set velocity limit is the longest, thinnest (i.e best aerodynamix profile) and heaviest.
This is best demonstrated in the 6.5cm vs .308win debate imho.
At a set energy level it gets much trickier as you are now balancing trajectory with terminal effect and performance can be graded on a curve depnding on what factors you need the most like terminal effect vs trajectory i.e hollow nosed projectiles vs rounded nosed.
In the small game world however... accuracy is king. A perfect shot at 12ftlb is just as lethal as a perfect shot at 36ftlb. If all thing are equal accuracy wise then id say 36ftlb would net more shot opportunities due to body shots being more viable... that being said- if you could get an extremely heavy .177 at 36ftlbs optimised for trajectory that would likely be the best Because effective range is roughly equal to hunting opportunity.
Or you could be like me and just shoot em with a stick and skip all the math and equipment...
Great review and advice!
I would have liked to see what your FAC rifle would do with 18.13 gr Jumbo exacts. With my BSA Sportsman HV using holdover I get numerous groups MOA at 100 meters. The old BSA sends them down range at 916 fps. 21.14 at 875 fps. The BSA shoots best with 18.13s and I have yet to try 15.9 gr Exacts.
If you need a firearm license to own it then you might as well use a .22LR rifle.
Which, coincidentally, also requires a license.
try and get a FAC unless you are a farmer or a club member
@@electoplater Easy enough!
People get very excited about UK firearms regulations. Getting an FAC isn't difficult - you only need land over which to shoot or (as you say) join a club, which isn't a bad idea anyway as you get to use the range for zeroing.
Everyone (unless you're a loony or have criminal record) can own a shotgun. Same with an air rifle.
Robert Stallard I’m afraid getting the land is the hardest part. I’ve had my shotgun cert for a year and a half now (which I applied for with the intention of going pigeon shooting) and I still haven’t been able to gain any permission lol. I’m 20 years old so the farmers take one look at that’s it haha. Wish I lived in USA with public land it would be actual heaven
@@pvegod1484 That's a shame. Whereabouts in the country are you? My woodland is overrun with squirrels (I've had 66 out in the past couple of months and it takes more of my time than I'd like). I'd happily take on a responsible 20 year-old to help control them!
Perhaps alloy pellets would be the way to go to avoid deforming
You Sir, either have some crappy airguns or were not holding still for the shots. I did see there was fair amount of wind. Maybe give the barrels a clean and the groups will tighten. And try different pellets, you may just strike gold with that 1 or two pellets. One you have stick to those.
In my opinion if you move up to F.A.C then buy a .22 rim fire with a magazine and silencer, they are as quite as a 12ft lb silenced P.C.P. and very accurate. There is little point in messing about with F.A.C air rifles with an even more limited amount of shots per charge.
@Irish Viking Unless you're shooting birds out of trees. Then air is your only safe option as far as rifles are concerned. Pellets lose velocity very quickly and start to tumble, falling almost vertically, however fast they leave the barrel, whereas a bullet will keep spinning, keep stabilised and follow a ballistic arc back to earth, a long way from where it was fired, with more than enough energy to kill or maim somebody. I think PC Plod would not be impressed if I shot my 17hmr, 22lr, 223 or 308 into the air. It's the only use for my air rifle, but it's an important requirement that I can't meet any other way. You can roost shoot with air way more effectively than with a Hushpower 12g for instance, Hushpower may be quieter than a normal shotgun, but it's still plenty loud enough to scare everything away after the first shot.
great educational video
Thanks, very informative video.
I still don't understand the .22cal being popular in GB with 12fps guns. The extra weight hitting the target is always negated by the extremely loopy trajectory problems and necessary compensation.
Its only popular with the gym boys... those that spend thousands of pounds on their hatchback making it heavier, therefore slower
My gun only puts out 32 foot pounds and is also chambered in .22 cal. I have gotten groups as small as .22 of an inch, or under 1/4" at 50 yards using 18.13 grain JSB Exact Jumbo heavy pellets. I must admit they are not all that tight but my average group at 50 yards is .35" of right around or 1/3". By the way, my gun is a break barrel. In case you are wandering, my gun is the unassuming Hatsan 125. I find that mine, at 50 yards drops just slightly less than yours does at 55. I have gone out to 80 yards once but can't recall how much it dropped at that distance. Mine propells the 18.13 grain pellets out the muzzle at about 900 fps. which gives it just over 32 foot pounds of energy. I find that my gun likes the JSB Exact pellets best for accuracy sake so I use them for the longer shots. I know you may consider my gun a cheap model but I can comfortably get head shots on squirrels at 50 yards out of it. What more can one ask. I would like a nice wood stock but I would grab my synthetic stock gun for the field as I wouldn't want to damage a nice wooden stock. I also enjoy the convenience of a completely self contained gun, but I can see where rapid follow up shots can be an advantage.
The reason I mentioned my gun at all is with a 30 + foot pound air rifle, you can stretch the distances out farther than with lower powered guns. The key is finding a pellet that shoots accurately out of your gun, while giving you the trajectory you are looking for. Have you considered slightly lighter pellets that have thicker shirts for their weight? They may be more accurate while providing a flatter trajectory. Though I have never done this test, it is widely accepted that pellets lose accuracy when they exceed 900 fps. For that reason, I stick with the JSB Exact pellets as they take me right up to the 900 fps. mark without going over it. Since your F.A.C. gun provides you with 36 foot pounds, you should be able to stretch your shooting distance out a little farther than I can with my gun. By the way, I've found that at greater distances, I just use the mill dots. If I sight my gun in at 18 yards, I find that at 30 yards, my point of impact is exactly 1 mill dot low, so I just aim 1 mill dot high and my p.o.i is right on. At 50 yards, I aim 2 mill dots high, and so on. To tell the truth, unless I'm shooting from a prone position or from a bench, I have no business trying to take out small game beyond 50 yards anyway. For medium sized game, we should easily be able to hit the mark out to 75 yards or so. Practice shooting at different distances using your mill dots and I think you'll be confident taking shots at 75 yards and beyond.
Thanks for posting your video. I enjoyed your detailed explanation. Here in the U.S., my reason for owning a magnum air rifle is not because I would need a permit for a rim fire or center fire, it's because I live in the city limits where it's not legal to discharge my firearms. I can however, legally shoot or, hunt on my property with this air rifle. Outside of the city limits I can use my firearms and fortunately, they don't require a permit for firearms here. There however, as I'm sure you know are some benefits to owning air rifles. No need to go over that at this time but again, I did enjoy your video.
seems optimistic!! 32 ftlb from a springer!!! it must kick like a Muel!
30 foot pounds out of a springer??
+Brook Smith yeah I know about the webley patriot .25 really wanted one of those awhile back but it's basically impossible to get one of those nowadays, but as fas as I know that's the most powerful Spring piston out there and in .25, in .177 will be overkill and .22 you'll get 28fpe
Very interesting thanks
excellant vidio
Thank you no pcp for the same value as a rim fire rifle is going to give you better performance i been searching for that answer and you confirmed it
If you have an FAC rifle in .22 try Gamo TS22. My SSS loves them.
F.A.C appears to have more punch within 45ft. But for the extra power doesent seem to acheive much greater distance. I guess a pellet being so light can only be pushed so far. So your right. Better going to F.A.C Rimfire 1st. But yet Its a whole new ball game and demands a lot more commitment if thats your goal. Myself i was contemplating that and to eventually move up to centre fire. But like all dreams you have to have the time and commitment and im just not able to. Something to consider before you start and waste your time and money.
I was wondering why you applied for a fac on a 36 ftlb air rifle since it is rather easy to get a rimfire if you have experience and land with a good reason to own a rifle or shotgun my friend has just moved up on caliber from .22lr to a .223/5.56 rifle takes both ammunition and will be applying for a .308 soonish i think as long as you progress up the calibers/power you would have no problem instead of applying for a .338 lapua for your first rifle haha you might get rejected
You need a good reason to own. ....according to who? ????? Throw your bullshit political hacks out of town. Get a 2nd ammendment like the USA.
The pellet drop at longer distances is a “Chair Gun” pellet calculator for pellets distance and drop, plus why are you calling the “Magazine” a clip, fire arms clips are like the lee enfield reloading “clips” not a magazine as thats what there to reload, good content not bad vide .
I'm in the Fac group too my mate. .20 Theoben Rapid mk2 running 30 ft/lb it's good out to 100 yards 2cm groups
CHOPERUS23 I thought about .20 and I wish I had taken that route now but moved up to rimfires instead
I'm toying with either a .20 or .22 RAW, which is basically a Rapid mk III. Can you let me know what .20 ammo you use in your FAC? Many thanks.
thats better than my .22 rimfire ! congrats ;)
I have a Gammo shadow 1200fps .177 pellet rifle. Would it be considered a FAC air rifle? How do you define?
Most definitely. I wouldn't brag about it without an FAC.
Mind you the new fx barrel fac shooting out to 200 yards isn’t a problem any more good video
Most pellets are made from soft lead alloys, so that they easily expand to seal the bore. At FAC velocities however they are too soft to grip the rifling properly, hence the loss of accuracy. This is the same principal as soft alloys in low velocity pistol bullets and hard alloys such as linotype in cast rifle bullets. I still have a 20 year old tin of high speed match pellets for air rifles incidentally, with the matching tin of softer air pistol pellets!
I am like you, I have on my ticket FAC Air rifle + .22LR + .17HMR and agree, air rifles are a damned lot more expensive and need more looking after. However, the ammo is dramatically cheaper. I had to have the FAC Air rifle as unfortunately one of my permissions is only authorised for this but would rather use rimfire any day. All down to personal preference and having time to tweak the rifles to the best settings. Great video by the way :-)
airguns all the way when the gun goes off the animals run with my airguns I get a second shot even on there friends they all end up dead NO BOOM!!!!!!!!!
Good upload ~ BTW, it's not a 10 shot 'Clip', it is a Magazine.
Magazines are feed mechanisms, sometimes with the use of a spring - as per the mags on my BSA PCP rifles ~ The Air Arms rifle shown in the video, (which I also own), has a magazine that's not spring loaded.
A clip is simply a storage device that holds rounds of anmmunition, ready for insertion into the magazine or the firearms cylinder.
Thank you for taking the time to explain things as you see it and also for the supporting information ~ I looked into this some time ago and spoke to many people in the Air rifle and firearms industry, on why there was confusion on the correct term / usage, for 'Magazines & Clips'
I've often watched many films, documentaries and even talks, where someone is loading their firearm with a spring loaded magazine and referred to it as a 'clip'.
This was obviously incorrect as, (using your example), it was clearly a magazine, because a spring was involved.
I admit that confusion can exist as certain countries will use different terminology.
If I want to order a new 'magazine' for the Air rifle shown in the video ~ nobody will stock, advertise or sell it as a 'clip' ~ I can see your point about a spring being used, but I can't remember ever seeing a non-spring magazine being sold as a clip.
Interesting point for further research ~ I'm going to speak to others who know more than I and hopefully will post back soon.
All the best.
excellent video. I am going through the same thoughts. I want to be able to take rabbits at 60m or so. The 12 ftlb 177 will do it but i need a bench rest and still day.
do you know what ft lbs your pellet is delivering at that range is it at a level to still be HUMANE ?
Very nice, honest video......!
Good informative video. Thank you very much, this was very useful........subbed you.
how many shots per fill are you getting with the 36 ft it must mean a lot more air to use good vid thanks
I've a Huntsman classic FAC running at 30.7ftlbs with 16grain JSBS for 929 fps, but am going to start using the 18.13 grain version as these just go straight through pigeons and don't deliver enough shock on impact as I've had a few fly then die. which with that kind of power you should be able to shoot them anywhere and drop them instantly, not have to take head shots!
What distance are you shooting them from? most likely the reason they're not dropping is because all the energy isn't being transferred to the bird, probably the pellet just goes through the bird because sub 12 just drops them with a heart/lung shot
H&N Terminator pellets will fix that problem. Those or Polymags.
Sound Advice!
By the way fantastick shooting with the two rifles with cans 👍
good call ..... your right
a no bull honest vid,you pays your money and takes your choice,having been a f.a.c. holder, a rimfire for the longer ranges,but getting a f.a.c. nowadays.
AA S410 Xtra in .22 turned down to 19ftlb will still shoot 16g AA field diabolos with out flying. You get more shots due to reduced pressure. You do have to give it some hold over out to 45-50 yrds but no more than a heavy pellet at 30ftlb. Anything over 50yrds and I use a .22 rimfire. 19ftlb is ideal for rats with N/V, the trajectory is so straight you don't have to worry about judging distance.
Good video, gives you abit of food for thought but couldn't help but notice the first shot he claimed to be was wrong so going 2 clicks left actually made his 2and shot go to the right.????
Interesting, thanks.
I wish we had 12 ft lbs options here in the US for us backyard shooters, over here it is all about feet per second, the more the better or everyone seems to think. There are a few 12 ft lbs guns here but they normally are high-end guns, you just will not see that in a Crosman or Gamo
Hi... late reply... Crosman 2250 XL which I use makes about 8 - 9 ft lbs and is extremely accurate in the back yard without being powerful enough to pass through quarry. It's not the best looking gun in the world, but it puts 'lead in the head'.
IMO Not Very Good Groups at all for 35, 40, & 50 yrds... I would start running thru a checklist of things that it could be to narrow it down. Plus id start by losing the Silencer until after the gun was grouping to my liking IF POSSIBLE. Then add it only after the groups are to my liking and go from there.
Hi Nigel, interesting points made about drop off, I considering same jump but wanted the quietness of an air rifle as opposed to rimfire. Im guessing that .177 or even a .20 caliber might of been a better choice if a suitable pellet could be found??
A .22 subsonic is as quiet as any air rifle. Both got pros and cons but for noise, with a .22lr and a moderator, all you hear is firing pin click then the thump of the bullet hitting the target. Drops off quick too, but with a lrf, and a mil dot reticle with a bit of practice reliable shots can be taken out way past 100m.
in the credits he mentions stunt co-ordinator REALLY? who did he get to fire the rifle Sylvester stalone
No, Jason Statham did all the shooting.
Seen springers giving better groups ..and no daft air bottles
My 12 ft lb daystate wolverine Would wipe the bulls out at 35 yards
If you use a lighter pellet like 18gr you will get flatter shooting at long range
I'm going to refrain from saying "It's a magazine, not a clip".....Whoops, i didn't. 🙄
I can't see the point in getting an FAC license just to have a more powerful air rifle and this video confirms it. Better to just go for shotgun and/or "real" guns for all the fuss and £££ involved.
Or build your own air gun because they are NOT "firearms"
It's also problematic for people not bound by the UK laws - If I search for reviews on air rifles, more often than not It will be a UK review for a non-FAC model.. hiding the reviews for the full power ones..
Istanbul or Constantinople?
Strutingeagle
Konstantinopel, please.
A very well put together piece, which answered most of the questions I had been pondering. Did you have the Weihrauch uprated to 36p/ft, or did you buy it new/secondhand already uprated.
I have 15ftlbs unregulated pcp air rifle indian brand but i need more power minimum 20ftlbs how can i modified to get power please tell me if possible.
I think you will find that if you changed your ammo to air arms field you will drastically reduce the group size, and are you sure its 36 ftlb, 27 is the norm.
phil
hunter100t bit late to the party but your rite I agree that would make a massive difference
Correct 26-27 ft/lbs and i am a professional tuner.
You will be better off getting a FX impact or fx crown or fx wildcat in high power as you can adjust the regulator & the hammer spring & you can change barrel liners to improve accuracy & easily change caliber & probe. FX is the best air rifle make you can buy honestly you won’t regret buying one 👌
GREAT VEIDO
*Its not a f*****g clip - its a magazine* 😂
At 36ft/lb you are really limiting your pellet choice to heavy pellets - try using bisley magnums for that power - they are the best over 32ft/lbs. Also you're losing the main benefit of fac air rifles at that power - a nice flat trajectory. If you backed it off to 26ft/lb which is the sweet spot for lighter pellets without skirt deformation - using air arms field (JSB's) with my Rapid I was easily shooting rabbits accurately to 70yards+ and you get a nice supersonic crack as the pellet
is travelling much faster. Really handy for places you can't use the rimfire.
Thats a very nice weihrauch though.
Nick Lukehurst could not agree more it was the main point of the vid to be careful with higher powered fac air rifles so less is actually more ! - Thanks for watching
ACampfireProduction try piledriver pellets my friend big results i promise
ACampfireProduction I was gonna say I can hit things 100 yards off with my beeman crowmagnum 27ft/lbs .22 I live in the USA my weihrauchs (R1 ,R9) .177 have 14 ft/lbs and the crowmagnum (theoben) has 27 ft/lbs get more pellets and shoot more that hw100 needs better pellets
+Nick Lukehurst I've used the magnums I've only ever shot about 50 pellets out of the tin. weight - 21.14 gr for my .22 I was missing everything. however using a lighter pellet I've no problems. Cheers for your input. atvb John
Every barrel is always going to be different and will like different pellets. It may prefer a certain pellet at a low velocity or hate it at a faster velocity
The .17 HMR is the best.
No ricochet like a .22 Lr, the .17 simply blows up on hitting the ground! Safe.
It shoots utterly flat out to 100 yards but highly effective even at 200 yards!
Rabbits hit in the head are utterly dead!
Air rifles are sub 50 yard tools, 12 FB are 30 yards, FAC maybe 50 yards. Around barns etc they are awesome but if you are out in the fields you need a rim fire.
do these guys not use jsb's?
Ive been ponering if to go fac air rifle or rim fire. On seeing a few vids the rim fire is best bet imo. You dont get much benefit from fac rifle