Interesting tests. The results might be different if you were brushing or spraying a thicker film finish, rather than one that's wiped on. I made a headboard long ago (early 90's) where I used regular amber shellac as the first coat, to give it the colour I wanted, then sprayed oil based poly on. The poly almost immediately started to blister and lift from the shellac and I blamed it on the wax in the shellac. Lot of work to strip that back to raw, I'll tell you :) Whenever I'm putting something together where squeeze out might be a problem, I tend to use less glue than I otherwise would, or.... wait for it.... use polyurethane construction adhesive. Never a problem to remove the squeeze out before it fully sets and it doesn't sink into the wood like the thinner PVA glue does.
This really wasn’t a problem with the application of the finish but something was different in the color (lighter in color) of the wood where glue was. I never noticed this before when using Waxilit, it could be that paste wax is inferior in this regard. The other info regarding clean up and finish application will still apply to Waxilit. I might need to get a new cannof Waxilit. :)
This is very interesting to me as I really struggle cleaning up squeeze out. I have used the straw method, wet sponge method, and waiting until the glue sets up slightly and then use a sharp chisel. I will definitely give this method a try. Thank you for the great tutorial.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I'd be interested in seeing a follow up with a water based polyurethane, since that seems to be one of the most popular finishes.
Excellent video, Brian. Personally I still use the old method of wiping the glue off with a wet rag, and have yet to have a problem with glue residue being pushed into the surface. At times though, the glue up may be in a difficult area to clean off, at which time I will pre finish before glue up.
Nice work. I don't worry much about waxes being on the surface before applying shellac and I've never encountered any lifting of the shellac. I'll have to try waxing oddly shaped surfaces for glue release as it is much better than my current method of using too little glue.
if not Mineral Spirits, there is always Turpentine. If all fails, apply a coat of Shellac, it will cover over wax and whatever you decide to finish your project, oil or water based, you will be fine. Nice beard, but the Grizzly Adams look only works with flannel... sorry. Um perhaps soul patch and fu man chu statche
I have not tested that. I would suspect that if there is any residual wax on the wood surface that it would interfere with water based stain and analine dye. If you followed me on Instagram, you could have suggested I try this :)
Looked to see if others asked - couldn't find any -- What about using acetone to clean off the wax? (I prefer to leave the wax. Since you're using oil based finishes and not shellac, varnish, or water based Poly, I'd like to see more tests, of course. (there is BLO, ArmRseal, and other products but ...) BUT NEVER silicone!
I didn't try acetone, but I don't think paste wax will be soluble in it. Acetone has a LogP of -0.25 which means its on the hydrophilic side of the spectrum for solvents.
@@GarageWoodworks Thanks, I felt that but wasn't sure. I do know a lot of woodworkers seem to rely on acetone a lot - especially those who work with metal too.
Very interesting test. I'd love to see you expand on this, maybe using acetone, naptha, lacquer thinner, or another form of cleaner to remove the wax prior to finishing. Also, what about stains before a clear finish? how is that affected by the wax?
If mineral spirits is effective in removing residual wax (and residual wax doesn't interefere with the finish) what would be the point in examining other solvents? I didn't look into stains, because I rarely use stain, but I did ask on Instagram to my followers for suggestions of things to try before starting this test. I'd love to have you follow along and give suggestions next time.
@@GarageWoodworks Mineral spirits can and does affect the way stains would penetrate into the fibers of the wood. It also can leave a residue that can affect how other clear finishes such as lacquer will adhere to the surface. Other solvents like acetone, alcohol, and lacquer thinner do not.
@@AlAmantea It does make sense that if any lipophilic solvent is present in the wood when a hydrophilic material/solvent is added, that you would have penetration problems. I think that the solution might be to make sure the solvent dissipates before applying the stain. A compromise would be to find a solvent that dissolves wax (paraffin and carnuaba wax in the case of Johnson's paste wax) and that also dissolves water based stain/dye. This could be a challenge. The solvent that is already in Johnson's paste wax is mineral spirits, so this might add to the problem that you are trying to address. Interesting question! With regard to mineral spirits leaving a residue, I have not experienced this problem.
Seems to me the bottom line is still the glue leaves a change. So I will stick to my frog tape in critical areas that I don't want glue squeeze out to show. The frog tape adhesive has a chemical reaction to the water in the glue and creates a steal so the glue or paint, wont run under the tape. Key is press down the tape firmly. Works well.
That's fine, I don't have any stock in paste wax. :) Sanding helped with removing the color difference. If you are using plywood just be careful not to over sand. If you are using solid stock, you will likely be sanding anyway.
No sanding. I do all my internal sanding before glue up. Only sand the outside where I had clamps and can easily deal with any squeeze out. Just my way and works for me. @@GarageWoodworks
Great! Applying wax as a glue-stick prevention is a very common process in woodworking likely because it's easy to apply and the glue peels off effortlessly.. I explained my rationale for performing the test which was that I feel strongly that the influence of wax on a finish application is poorly understood and inadequately (if not at all) covered online and in print media.
That seems to be a popular suggestion. :) It's a rare event when I stain any projects so the thought didn't occur to me. I'm not sure if I'll revisit this topic, but if I do I'll be sure to include stains.
Interesting tests. The results might be different if you were brushing or spraying a thicker film finish, rather than one that's wiped on. I made a headboard long ago (early 90's) where I used regular amber shellac as the first coat, to give it the colour I wanted, then sprayed oil based poly on. The poly almost immediately started to blister and lift from the shellac and I blamed it on the wax in the shellac. Lot of work to strip that back to raw, I'll tell you :)
Whenever I'm putting something together where squeeze out might be a problem, I tend to use less glue than I otherwise would, or.... wait for it.... use polyurethane construction adhesive. Never a problem to remove the squeeze out before it fully sets and it doesn't sink into the wood like the thinner PVA glue does.
This really wasn’t a problem with the application of the finish but something was different in the color (lighter in color) of the wood where glue was. I never noticed this before when using Waxilit, it could be that paste wax is inferior in this regard. The other info regarding clean up and finish application will still apply to Waxilit. I might need to get a new cannof Waxilit. :)
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Lots to think about Brian. Thanks for taking the time to do the testing and put this out!
Thanks, Guy.
This is very interesting to me as I really struggle cleaning up squeeze out. I have used the straw method, wet sponge method, and waiting until the glue sets up slightly and then use a sharp chisel. I will definitely give this method a try. Thank you for the great tutorial.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I'd be interested in seeing a follow up with a water based polyurethane, since that seems to be one of the most popular finishes.
Interesting experiment, I wonder what the glue line section would have looked like on a species that doesn’t oxidize as easily as cherry
This is very interesting. This will help me for my own projects. Thanks for shearing!
Excellent video, Brian. Personally I still use the old method of wiping the glue off with a wet rag, and have yet to have a problem with glue residue being pushed into the surface. At times though, the glue up may be in a difficult area to clean off, at which time I will pre finish before glue up.
Thanks, Steve!
Nice work. I don't worry much about waxes being on the surface before applying shellac and I've never encountered any lifting of the shellac. I'll have to try waxing oddly shaped surfaces for glue release as it is much better than my current method of using too little glue.
Cool tests. Interesting results.
Tool new album supposedly coming in the next few months. Just in case you didn't know.
Awesome test! I'll use paste wax from now on!
Thank you.
Informative video. Did you try lacquer as finish?
No, I didn’t try lacquer.
if not Mineral Spirits, there is always Turpentine. If all fails, apply a coat of Shellac, it will cover over wax and whatever you decide to finish your project, oil or water based, you will be fine.
Nice beard, but the Grizzly Adams look only works with flannel... sorry. Um perhaps soul patch and fu man chu statche
Great tutorial...thanks for sharing.
Would you try with water based stain or even aniline dye?
I have not tested that. I would suspect that if there is any residual wax on the wood surface that it would interfere with water based stain and analine dye. If you followed me on Instagram, you could have suggested I try this :)
Looked to see if others asked - couldn't find any -- What about using acetone to clean off the wax? (I prefer to leave the wax. Since you're using oil based finishes and not shellac, varnish, or water based Poly, I'd like to see more tests, of course. (there is BLO, ArmRseal, and other products but ...) BUT NEVER silicone!
I didn't try acetone, but I don't think paste wax will be soluble in it. Acetone has a LogP of -0.25 which means its on the hydrophilic side of the spectrum for solvents.
@@GarageWoodworks Thanks, I felt that but wasn't sure. I do know a lot of woodworkers seem to rely on acetone a lot - especially those who work with metal too.
Very informative. Thank you.
Instead of the light sanding, maybe a cabinet scraper would have worked better.
Maybe.
I wonder if some of the residual discolorization on the board may be from the natural chemical reaction of the glue and the wood? Dan
Very interesting test. I'd love to see you expand on this, maybe using acetone, naptha, lacquer thinner, or another form of cleaner to remove the wax prior to finishing. Also, what about stains before a clear finish? how is that affected by the wax?
If mineral spirits is effective in removing residual wax (and residual wax doesn't interefere with the finish) what would be the point in examining other solvents? I didn't look into stains, because I rarely use stain, but I did ask on Instagram to my followers for suggestions of things to try before starting this test. I'd love to have you follow along and give suggestions next time.
@@GarageWoodworks Mineral spirits can and does affect the way stains would penetrate into the fibers of the wood. It also can leave a residue that can affect how other clear finishes such as lacquer will adhere to the surface. Other solvents like acetone, alcohol, and lacquer thinner do not.
@@GarageWoodworks I do follow you on IG, and I believe you follow me as well! (which I truly appreciate! (@AmanteaFineWoodworks)
@@AlAmantea It does make sense that if any lipophilic solvent is present in the wood when a hydrophilic material/solvent is added, that you would have penetration problems. I think that the solution might be to make sure the solvent dissipates before applying the stain. A compromise would be to find a solvent that dissolves wax (paraffin and carnuaba wax in the case of Johnson's paste wax) and that also dissolves water based stain/dye. This could be a challenge. The solvent that is already in Johnson's paste wax is mineral spirits, so this might add to the problem that you are trying to address. Interesting question!
With regard to mineral spirits leaving a residue, I have not experienced this problem.
@@AlAmantea Ahh! Yes. I do recognize your logo. :)
Seems to me the bottom line is still the glue leaves a change. So I will stick to my frog tape in critical areas that I don't want glue squeeze out to show. The frog tape adhesive has a chemical reaction to the water in the glue and creates a steal so the glue or paint, wont run under the tape. Key is press down the tape firmly. Works well.
That's fine, I don't have any stock in paste wax. :)
Sanding helped with removing the color difference. If you are using plywood just be careful not to over sand. If you are using solid stock, you will likely be sanding anyway.
No sanding. I do all my internal sanding before glue up. Only sand the outside where I had clamps and can easily deal with any squeeze out. Just my way and works for me. @@GarageWoodworks
Great! Applying wax as a glue-stick prevention is a very common process in woodworking likely because it's easy to apply and the glue peels off effortlessly.. I explained my rationale for performing the test which was that I feel strongly that the influence of wax on a finish application is poorly understood and inadequately (if not at all) covered online and in print media.
Could the color discoloration be because of the exposure of UV light being blocked by the glue coverage?
It would definitely block UV light and light does increase the dark color of cherry, but this was within 24 hours.
Can you try this test with stains?
That seems to be a popular suggestion. :)
It's a rare event when I stain any projects so the thought didn't occur to me. I'm not sure if I'll revisit this topic, but if I do I'll be sure to include stains.
Thanks for sharing that