Server Meshing in 4min 14sec - CitizenCon 2021
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2024
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Star Citizen aims to span multiple video game types by combining space trading, space combat and shooter elements, in a first person massively multiplayer online game. Numerous content creators cover the ongoing situation to keep you informed and up to day. As an early backer and tester, you need to be ready for its quirks but you can also witness the game evolve.
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“When, when, and how soon?” My questions exactly.
People are giving up hope on SC...so many i know sold there stuff and left the game...and many from elite came to sc becoude elite also can manage what they wanted...maby if people stoped byung ships ..sig maby speeds up there work....SC feels like a classroom without a teacher....just make pretty things..and wil see when you finish it
soon™, *Soon™* and *SOON™* ...
dont trust their words. they prove many times they worth zero. trust only what they do. and they do pretty much nothing compared to a time spent. if they dont deliver anything next year. SC will be done. noone will trust them ever again
@@zizhdizzabagus456 You guys say this every year
@@lypodaniel There is _literally_ no other space sim out there. Elite does a few things right that aren't anywhere else, SC already does a few things right that aren't anywhere else, neither are finished and neither are a dream space sim
People are giving up hope on SC, and going where? LMAO
As an IT guy I found the nuts and bolts pretty interesting, and I was glad Citizencon still provides an opportunity for panels that go into that kind of depth… >.>
I wish it went a little bit more indepth, like the handoff protocol when entities are passed between servers.
Thanks for this, I don't really have time to follow this game that closely and these videos help a lot.
I just finished watching your video and went to see this one haha. Yeah His videos are really helpful
Especially if you put it at 1.25 speed
@@onetrueone 1.25 speed? Those are rookie numbers :P 1.75 sometimes 2x speed here ^^
Your summaries are most helpful!!!
I hope you still feel so after tis one.
@@NOOBIFIER1337 Probably already a reality in an alternate universe 8)
Extrapolating given the uniformity of the visible universe and the vast magnitude of scales between atoms and those distances, one is inclined to believe that our universe is just another bubble like molecules of water floating next to each other. Can't prove it of course.
@@NOOBIFIER1337 I commend you for being able to comment on the comments provided by these CIG commentators.
@@smok4101 Not yet.
The hardest part is figuring out how to get from where we are now to Server Meshing. While the panel didn't give us an ETA, it told us that they know everything they need for this tech to work. It's reassuring that they're not flying by the seat of their pants in that regard. Looking at the Progress Tracker and the panel's info side by side, it definitely feels like the independent pieces are nearing completely and the next six months are them assembling, testing, and fixing Static Server Meshing so it can be deployed. Finger crossed, of course.
This is probably still 2+ years away given what they showed. I was 26 when I backed this game. I'm 35 now. I expect to be in my 40s when they finally release SC.
It's kinda sad and pretty cool that most likely our generation is basically investing in something that only the next will properly enjoy.
Speaks volumes about the complexity of the game and why it will most likely never be attempted again.
LOL Jeez. I was 16, I'm 25 now. I just have this game mentally on the backburner. I backed it and check in about every 8 months to a year. I'm not holding my breath 🤷 but I'm sure that if they can deliver on everything they want to, it'll be a decent game.
How I envy you young people. Well, I can still wait a couple of years, but it makes more of a difference if you are in your 60s or past 70.
Being 50+ already, the expected time of waiting another 8-10 years before release will put me close to retirement. While I might have enough time then, I guess new players will be some 40 years younger - and that is a huge advantage in a game where reaction matters.
@@dragonchild_SC I honestly think there will be plenty of room for slower gameplay. I personally plan to be a trader mostly, and avoid combat where I can.
Also, a lot of the guys I play flight sims with are retired, and they seem to keep up just fine.
@@dragonchild_SC Patience and wisdom will matter as well. ;)
“Extreme levels of detail confused with transparency.” Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Extreme level of details would be pages of codes nobody understand. The graphs were perfectly to the point with comments. At last I did understood server meshing!
Much of the tech answers did answer more of the questions, and allow some idea of when. The icache is in now, renamed though.
The next phase is the new replication layer, and meshing a few servers into a shard, this might take the form of a small shard that contains stanton and pyro still with a small player limit, then slowly increasing the limits, with more player, until they find and can fix the issue with the scale.
On the roadmap much of the persistence streaming work is due to end around Q2 2022, this is the first stage of the replication layer, the ability to stream all the data out to rebuild a server, according to the brief, each server atm take about 2 minute to stream in
I’m loving your recently renewed sense of thoughtful cynicism. Never to be distracted or mislead by technical data dumps.
Especially for a soldier It is a valuable skill to not blindly buy the bullshit coming from 'management'. 😉 (In part because it is particularly frowned upon in that profession.)
It takes a long time for these things to grow, and usually it requires severe escalation of problems due to societal complacency, but better late than never.
Servitude of truth still has a long way to go because often it is only motivated by selfishness, not principle, and thus not servitude of truth at all.
I guess I can only sit back and watch the show unfold. ... But to me it will feel like another re-run.
I know a lot didn't enjoy or seem interested in the nuts and bolts of what was presented... but me, as a former DB Analyst and Engineer(now I'm just a hobbyist), I was totally geeking out over this. There's a lot of parallels with what they're doing vs the DB's I used to run in a factory environment. Replication, local server query and save load balancing, live data vs data cubes(snap shot of sub-set of stored data) performance monitoring across multiple servers(query and Long term storage replication). Use to fiddle with all that and more.
All this takes time to deploy and is constantly being tuned. Not all the methods are completely new with what they're doing, however HOW their using/implementing it is new.
I've really been struggling to find reasons to get back into Star Citizen. I've spent tons of money, had plenty of fun, but as the years drag on, it seems like I get progressively less invested, even as they add new content...because it always means nothing. A new ship, a new landing zone; all explorable in an hour or two and then you're left with the same game you've been playing since 3.0.
They add physical inventory, but no way to retrieve your ship and gear on it after a 30k. They talk about server meshing for years, but it seems like we're at step one...As much as I still want to see a massive open-world space sim, sometimes it feels like CIG isn't going to be the first to do it.
@Baidar Saixanna just have it be a skin you can reapply... Should solve the problem
@Baidar Saixanna ships bought with real money are bound to your CIG account, you shouldn't lose them unless you have no more insurance for them (I buy mine with LTI only for that purpose)
Regarding items, they are cheap enough in-game (and expensive enough IRL) that there's no point buying them actually
@Baidar Saixanna agree, I just said it was pointless buying armors/stuff with real money. Now it's even more 😂
2013 backer here. Yep, your summary is spot on.
I don't even logon once a year now.
Not been on wrectrum for a while either.
Still, my money and other hobbies have been getting TLC.
Dude, i feel ya, hence why i'm waiting for Bethesda Starfield, it may not be MMO, but damnit, it has Nexus Mods and coding gurus to drop those sweet sweet game stability improvements. when it comes to S.C. i'm tired of hearing "we plan for this and that, and Server Meshign and I Cache are new technologies and game changers and here let us blow more smoke up your ass" Server meshign was done ion early 90's on a game called Asheron's Call, several different parts of the map in the MMO where hosted on different servers, and you would transition between them seamlessly on foot. portaling took a little bit of time for transfer and loading cause you had to jump between the servers with multiple servers between the two hosting sections. . so maybe CIG needs to call up some of the backend devs from Turbine and ask them how to do it, cause apparently they don't have a clue.
3 years ago "We are working on it"
2 years ago "We are working on it"
1 year ago "We are working on it"
2021: "We are working on it"
thank you so much for doing this noob, means a lot to be able to just get the actual info without the pain of watching.
They DID end with a hint. One sentence at 26:30 , "While the underlying tech is close to completion, there _are_ some upcoming challenges that we need to, solve before we can give that into your hands." One of the 'challenges' they mentioned was global chat potentially becoming location based, "many teams in the company now need to change their feature to take into account the meshing technology that's behind it"
That's definitely a hint, at least as big of a hint as CIG ever gives. Means they've got a lot of the networking done but the teams are working on implementing. Hints at next year in my opinion
Yes, they hinted it… but it’s the same as if I said I would be 30 in the next couple years… without any context, that information is useless.. could be 5 years, could be 1
To be honest, I wouldn’t trust anything from CIG. They’ve been saying SQ42 will be released since 2016 and here we are, 2021. The fact that people like you have to decipher WHEN it’ll come rather than it coming straight from the dev’s mouth is worrying. Super worrying.
This is the big one for me, Noob, as you would have seen from my previous comments.
Can't tell you how thankful we all are for your no-BS breakdowns and quick looks - now, onwards to Alpha 4.0!
I understand why you might feel that this video was a waste since not much information was actually communicated. HOWEVER, you saved every one of us from wasting 20-30 minutes watching Star Citizen's video on the subject. I for one greatly appreciate the time and effort you put into getting these summaries out to us. It surprised the heck out of me to go to bed after watching a few videos, to then wake up and see you'd been uploading them all night too. Thanks Noobifier.
They probably have internal estimates regarding when all this will be completed. But they don't tell us. Because those internal estimates are wrong.
They're a best guess, but they're not an accurate guess. They won't be able to make an accurate guess of how long it will take to do, until they've done it at least once.
In other words, once they've completed server meshing and it's in and working robustly, then they'll know how long it takes to implement server meshing.
That's how all development estimates work. You look at how long it took the last 10 times you did this, and you get a pretty accurate schedule for how long it will take to do #11. Works great for art assets, animations. Even dialog! But since they've never implemented server meshing before, they have no real way to know how long it will take.
... Or even if it gonna work.
@@durtwarrior1142 Oh yeah! Just because you can imagine it and you're smart doesn't mean you can make it work.
I've seen folks in the SC community who literally believe (or they say, who knows what they believe) that with the right engine programmers, you can do literally anything.
This would come as a pretty big surprise to the engine programmers!
Ya...to me I don't see them as able to pull this off without going to regional servers.. IMHO..which I'm ok with but just want and expect more..
@@mcolville to be fair, with enough talent and enough time and money you can do just about anything, problem is how long, will the money be there and the community there to buy the product long enough to get to the finish line if you keep moving the finish line?
CIG has backed themselves into a corner that I don't know if they'll ever be able to get out of thanks to CR. He promised us a lie, the sooner we can accept that the sooner we can get past it. He won't let the game be released with anything less than everything because reviews would tear him apart and drive away sales and it only gets worse. If they release next year with 3 systems the articles will say 10 years and half a billion dollars and we got 3% of what was promised. If he delays another 5 years and another 200 mil dollars (if they can raise that as time goes on) then release with 10 systems the articles will still say 700 million and 15 years and we only got 10% of what was promised. You can't escape this death loop.
They also put themselves in a corner with ship sales. Ships take time, but you have to dedicate that time because that's the only source of real income for the entire project. They scale the teams up each year which drains more money and they have to release better and better ships, which take longer, just to keep the company alive. We're already starting to hit that tipping point where new ships are (generally) so OP compared to older ships that eventually they will have to take time and money to go back and fix older ships which takes more time and money and those ships don't bring in virtually any new money. The longer this cycle goes on the more people (money) they need, the more time (money) they need to spend on old ships to keep the community from revolting, and the more people get pissed off that they still don't have their ships from 9 years ago yet. It's another spiral that only gets worse as time goes on and will eventually hit a point where it's not sustainable anymore and the house of cards comes crashing down. You can't just hunker down and focus on getting the game out because then you have nothing to sell and they will burn up all their cash. The only way out is hire more people which, you guessed it, takes up more money, hence every year the CIG team keeps growing. Hell the longer it goes on and the more people get pissed over time the harder it will be to secure outside funding as well, if you think it's a hard time getting investors now at 9 years with zero actual product to sell, try getting an investor at 12 years, at 15 years.
The only way out of this is to break the cycle and make a release. Acknowledge that we won't be getting what we paid for and were promised, set a hard release date, and get a product on the shelf. You can keep working on the game after that fact, WOW has existed for like 13 years after release and they are still working on it because they sell expansions. CIG can do the same thing with more systems and ships, but until they admit they fucked up and stop shooting for their stretch goals as the release date then it will be the never ending pursuit of CR's perfection that will doom the entire project. Sure there would be a bit of backlash but I think the community would be fine if SQ 42 and say a 5 system SC PU with quanta working and server meshing were set as the target and we got a hard date. I see no other way out of this loop unless they break out, admit their mistakes, and take the beating while they still have money, and then put something out.
If apple spent 15 years building the perfect iphone it would not be perfect by the time they launched and the whole company would have likely have gone under before they released it. Instead, they set a date, put out a product, and then improved it every year and became the first trillion dollar company in the world. You can't be a company that makes things and survive forever by never releasing ANYTHING but pictures and broken promises.
And before people complain, yes I'm a backer, I'm concierge, I've gotten people referred into the game, and I want the project to see the light of day, but I'm also a realist and am fine with taking a slap in the face as that would be better then the sucker punch of the entire project going down in flames. How can we expect CIG to be honest with us if we can't even be honest to ourselves and acknowledge the elephant in the room?
I know how long it takes to design one of my projects of a certain type. So with my 22 years of experience in my industry, I can quite reliably give my estimated time for completion on any job of my industry if it is given to me. I can even do that when there are 5 other jobs I am also currently working on. Now if you tell me there is this new project that is completely new, but it is similar to the way WOW did a project a decade ago, or how Battlefield does their projects, and then tell me that there are a few new features that must be implemented, I should be able to give you a pretty damn good estimate as to how long it will take. Just because it is new and never done before, does not mean that time to completion cannot be estimated with some degree of accuracy.
I am not a game dev, but I work alot with game engines as part of my research. While i'm no expert on the topic, sorting out this architecture on it's own is no small feat. That and figuring out what problems need to be solved alone would have easily taken months. Now, actually solving all this, is one epic project. A significant part of it would be refactoring existing working systems without actually breaking them, which is never a fun thing to do, which is also probably why giving progress update might not be something that's straightforward. On a different note, as a computer scientist myself, I absolutely loved the technical panels, particularly this one and the audio panel.
When Noobifier says, “It’s sometimes just very difficult as a backer, to consider, how much still actually needs to be done before we can get out of Alpha, let alone get into Beta…”, you know that the project is starting to grate on the community. I still have hope for Star Citizen but at the same time I can't shake the feeling that it is being grossly mismanaged.
mismanaged is probably the biggest understatement of the century in this case.
I don't think so. I think that this comes from people that don't know how game development works. The game wasn't even being started on until around 2014, and it wasn't really until 2016-2018 before they actually had the money and crew to actually get the ball rolling. They literally created a brand new company, game engine, and the foundations of two games in a matter of several years, and you all are whining that they're not doing things fast enough. I'm sorry, but you are the ones that are grossly mismanaging things.... YOURSELFS. Look, it's not wrong to have criticisms, it's not wrong to have moments of doubt....I've been impatient sometimes myself, sometimes I've wondered exactly when the game will come out too. But I never voiced that publicly and spouted toxic rubbish online like you. Yes, your comment isn't as bad as some other people, but it's still refuse in the sense that it misses the mark and discredits CIG unjustly without looking at the bigger picture. I'm sorry you've sunk money into something you don't really understand that well, but it doesn't give you the right to tear the developers down, giving them money doesn't give you power over them. They told you they would be making the game on Chris Robert's timeframe, which is unlimited and will take as long as it takes and will not be rushed just because some people with ADHD can't wait. Do you really want SC to be a failure like Cyberpunk or Battlefield? Both failures because of the extreme hype generated by the community themselves and being rushed to fulfill that hype only to be unready.
@@chobai9996this is very blunt 😂 but I agree with everything you have said. I do know In the past they have misused funds and mismanaged their teams, But I also don’t fault them they aren’t a huge development team like Dice or Cdpr that has large backers and a large team from the jump. I like to reference no man’s sky as they were a tiny team making a Quad A level title. I’ve always just loved watching the development regardless it’s an insane project with so much potential and it’s fun to watch.
I think it was mismanaged in the first years, combined with the scope creep (some of which good, some bad).
But ultimately it's just a combination of very difficult goals & running the fund raising along side the development that dictate a lot of restrictions.
It's frustrating as a consumer, but that's the deal everyone signed up for that backed - nobody ever envisioned that it would change this much though.
One of the common misconceptions the community has with Server Meshing is that it will solve all FPS issues and everyone will have a smooth frame rate.
Server Meshing will affect lag, not FPS per se. It might improve the FPS for certain scenarios (when you're alone or with a group of friends and everything is calm). But, let's say there's a huge 100v100 war on a planet, with capital ships, several dogfights, tanks, infantry, etc. While it will be seamlessly and transparently divided into multiple servers to severely reduce lag, it doesn't mean you'll have good FPS.
Your graphics card will still have to render all the action happening around you (other people, ships, tanks, shots being fired, movement/maneuvering, missiles', trajectories, etc). Even with a 3090, this might still be too much to handle at once.
There are things they plan on doing to mitigate this slightly like prioritized frame skipping. Basically, things that are close and likely to be focused on by the player will update each frame, but ships that might be fighting in the background may jitter around a bit as the client only gets updates every 2 or 3 frames.
I watched it live and all I could think was, goodness I hope NOOBIFIER's video summarises this in a way my brain can absorb better.
One of the better Panels from the point of explaining clearly the Nuts and bolts, yet I looked forward to a practical demonstration of the technology. Just hope they master this hurdle for everything soon enough.
Just what I thought, this presentation was a huge letdown. I wanted to know what kind of progress has been made and what is left, but instead I am as clueless as ever but was given half an hour of technical jargon that really didn't tell me much new about it. I didn't watch much of it because I saw it going that way, and I am very frustrated with CIG for giving us essentially nothing that we wanted to know. It's frankly quite unacceptable in my eyes when we are the ones funding the whole project.
Anyways, thanks Noob for the summary. You must have had quite a day yesterday, and I really appreciate the effort.
This segment was a waste of time, I'm not sure if he was there to confuse the base or just convince them, either way what I got out of this was exactly what I've been saying for the past few years, the tech isn't here yet, not on the scale the want, hundreds or thousands of players in an area.
He said it in the stream its going to be awhile and it's going to start very small, I personally don't think the PU will be done in 5 years.
This wasn't transparency this was a distraction in an attempt to persuade the community that progress is made or coming, the truth is its 5 to 10 years out and CIG has no idea when this game will get done because they have no idea when or if they can make the tech work on a large scale.
@@acun4075 exactly ... they should take responsability ... after 10 years they are at the same point as in the begining, a demo like theirs can be made in UE4 in 1 year with no problems
@@chillyboy2008 ya this is what gets CIG in trouble in my opinion, we have seen demos now year after year and most of which has not been put in the game, it hypes people up, gives players this sense of accomplishment and direction yet never gets added to the game.
The whole artifact quest line we saw in the game, big effing deal we see single player games doing this all the time what was so impressive about this demo?
We know the game looks amazing, we know what they can do with graphics and design, what we need to know is, can they make this game WORK, work on a scale they have promised and without horrible game breaking issues because they can't even get 40 player servers to work atm how are they going to manage thousands of people in a confined area like Area 18 or a space station?
@@acun4075 im telling you, with this progress that they've made in 10 years and with the demos and what they are showing and not implementing it really looks like a scam.
@@chillyboy2008 I don't feel it's a scam, I feel it's more like a dream ahead of its time, sooner or later money will become an issue they bank on us to keep funding this 20 year project none of us thought would be 20 years and they can't tell us it's going to be 20 years because the funding will dry up.
I'm interesting to see where the finding hits this year I stopped buying stuff years ago.
I don't agree on scam, scam implies they never intended to release or make a game which is not true.
Just because you failed to achieve something doesn't mean you didn't intend it to work it's called failure it happens all the time.
Fun fact: possibly the first use of the term "shard" was actually Ultima Online, made by the company CR worked for at the time, Origin. The backstory was that the world was trapped in a crystal by an evil sorcerer (this happened in one of the early Ultimas), and the crystal got smashed--each shard from the crystal wound up with an identical copy of the world. That was the in-game fiction for why there were multiple servers, each with its own playerbase. It was amusing to hear them still using the term, albeit under slightly different circumstances.
‘How soon’ is pretty much the citizens motto
I have friends who will be dead of literal old age before the basics of SC see fruition. I really hope CIG can beat the clock. It sometimes feels like they're great in theory, but are comparatively incapable of delivering. In another 10 years, someone else might do something similar, better.
Then again, the state of the market is horrible. So, there is a dim light for succeeding. I'm just glad the journey has been almost as fun as the theoretical reality.
Thanks for the continuous work! This channel's format is critical for the community.
I do like that they went into detail on Server Meshing. It's way to seldom that developers get to actually present their work without dumbing it down so much that it's no longer accurate.
However, I do agree that they should've had some sort of timeline. I know that CIG is really afraid of dates post 3.0, but they should still have aims. Something like "We hope to get static server meshing sometime in 2022, and dynamic server meshing in 2023" would be nice.
Server meshing definitely feels like the last major blocker for new content. The art team is already working on Pyro and probably other systems if I had to guess. It's totally decoupled workflow because of this bottleneck... which is potentially good for dev... but not so much for new game content.
pretty sure their new studio is working on the Nyx system already iirc
@@thesherbet yep, the nyx hospital is already being worked on.
Isn't the next system Odin? And the campaign takes place in the Odin system so that's gotta be kinda complete from S42 team.
@@DeepStone-6 Nyx was confirmed an upcoming system when they showed the height maps for some of its planets in the "Inside Star Citizen: Production Induction" episode. It makes sense that it comes after Pyro, since neither Stanton nor Pyro itself have a Jump Point to Odin. I'd also wager that either Magnus, or Terra are afterwards, since these 5 systems are heavily interconnected.
Don't quote me on this, but I also remember CIG saying that they'd keep Odin in SQ42 for a bit.
@@chupica100 Nyx has jump to Odin, maybe that's next.
Love it with the exception that without the tldr segment everyone would still expect this yesterday. They’ve effectively demonstrated complexity and brought us up to steam on this critical element. And as this is the blocker a guesstimate (always interpreted as a promise) that’s not met won’t be well received.
I loved the citizencon. It leaves me amped for the 600i now!
Yes, they explained why we don’t see it yet in game
I watched the whole day and your video cleared up a few things I must have missed or just didn't understand. Thanks.
Man, I'm loving these short and sweet recaps. I wasn't able to watch the stream, but you've given a quick and concise rundown of all the points I was interested in. Keep up the awesome work. It's very much appreciated.
No apology necessary for constructive, logical criticism and justified frustration.
Your videos are very helpful and always well put together. I hope by patch 3 2022 we could have most of server meshing done and in game.
Nah your stuff is always helpful, especially if its breaking down a 8 hour Star Citizen live
You did it. You were able to parse and summarize. Congrats and THANKS.
glad you have the patience to sit through all that, cause I really don't, and I appreciate you giving us the breakdown
These videos are just what I need. Information broken down into articulate bite sized chunks. Many thanks.
Being out of home these days, your videos are keeping me informed, your work is really appreciated.
Ps: anyways, I'm used to watch your summups first, and then watch the official ones
After getting burned every single time they give a timeframe, it makes sense to me that they are a bit shy to give one.
Considering the scope of what they are trying to accomplish, the fact they know exactly how they are going to make it work is a huge step.
As for a guess when it's done? When it's ready.
Thanks for this, as Uncommon said, your summaries are helpful - quick, concise, and short enough that I don't switch off.
Server meshing is hard. Too hard to give reliable, fixable dates.
The theory behind server meshing; it sounds very like object orientation. I've had to work through that kind of migration in smaller systems than SC ... not easy! (British understatement).
As to getting out of Alpha - RSI won't make that move until they achieve perfection (opinion). Perfection is an excellent goal to strive for, but unachievable.
You only adapted to the Lag, as an Australian I was born to it.
molded by it,
Great video about one of the most intricate technical wizardry in an MMO. Stowed stuff can remain in a database in the background until called upon, live stuff needs to be replicated among shards and pretty damn quick too. Delta frames and deduplication might come into play and the backbone will have to be high bandwidth. I can imagine flying objects, rounds fired, missiles in flight will likely be prioritized, ship and armor loadout changes will be lower priority since their state changes much less often. This is interesting material and as an IT guy I love stuff like this. Thank you for posting on a largely unspoken of part of the game. Much appreciated.
3:08 Thank u!!.. Perfect words of wording for these words..
Thanks for the update. I'm betting on another few years before server meshing rolls out. Realistically there is still so much new content being added, it's kinda like what they had to do with going back and redoing all the ships to make them compatible with better tech. I think the conundrum is that game tech has evolved exponentially since 2012 so what was built then won't work now, what's built now won't work in future and update passes being needed to bring it all together, eventually
Honestly. This citizencon put a very hefty blow in a LOT of my friends who are backers. Many have just got to the point that their brain sees this level of "patience" as "illogical" and they're kinda done.
Well said sir, you defined transparency beautifully.
Uhhhhh.....if the system asks me about my location, my response? "I AM SOMEWHERR WHERE I DONT KNOW WHERE I AM!" 😂
you're exactly right. transparency means UPDATING me as often as possible on the when. not necessarily the why and how.
The thing is, people, do want this, even though they don't ask for it. They ask how they plan to make server meshing work or question the validity. They are usually louder than the larger group of asking when. Because that group doesn't question the how, they just want to know the when. But we got stuck with a panel on how it will all work because people keep asking about it.
I personally love all the deep dive nerdy hardware/software level stuff they do. Its certainly not for everyone as it can easily muddy what they are trying to impart at times.
But I get just as fascinated by this as I do with new theoretical stuff in various science fields, com science, particle physics, quantum mechanics, AI dev, geology finds, biology.. etc
I don't always understand every bit and part but its still a delight to hear about.
When it comes to lag and latency, its probably quite easy to solve with a "inter-dimensional travel" system for real world locations. i.e. a dimension for each continent (europe, asia, africa, north america, south america, etc)
Main benefit is having consistency of ping but still allowing players from different regions to server-hop and play with eachother.
Not really if I’m playing with a friend in Europe…
I personally really liked the in depth explanation as it helped me understand how super hard this tech is to develop. The problem with giving a "when" date with such tech is that anything can pop up that can grind the whole project to a halt. Happens every time in programming. If the problem is in the foundation of the tech, they will have to lift everything up, fix the issue then adopt all the above features to support the fixed foundation. Programming is hard, but its even harder when you are doing something that hasnt been done before.
Thanks for breaking this down. The presentation was a little dry and over complicated even for me who has worked in IT for over 10 years.
Feels like it was purposely confusing ngl
@@brxnv_ Obfuscation by supplying unnecessary details is a tried tactic. Would be cynical to say they did it but when the number one question still isn't answered it's a bad joke.
I enjoyed this lecture. I think I might be into watching the game evolve more than I am into playing the game.
Yes, it is helpful to those of us who don’t have as much time to slog through the mire of information. And yes, I have the same three questions as well.
Glad it was helpful!
Speaking on the intricacies of the minutia of how server meshing is suppose to work by the CIG Devs, "appears" like a smoke and mirror show. I'm with you, as a long time backer, a when or round about time frame is needed at this point. Anything less and it starts to look like their hiding something... Lying by omission is still lying. Great break down though
I just want some stable frame rates at this point.
Well said. It does feel like a distraction
Remember we aren't the only backers and we aren't all server and network engineers. Besides if they didn't go to this length scam trolls would accuse cig of hiding something.
@@ShiroNekoDen I agree with this, some-how this transparency is being treated as smoke and mirrors because its too much detail? Lying by omission I don't see that; they told us how they want it to work, how its going to work - just not when we will get it.
CIG is pumping out all the easy stuff and backers are congratulating them. Oh look at the BMM, the game is surely right around the corner. Oh look at this new planet tech feature, game is surely coming soon.
Those things… anyone could do, if they spent time and money like CIG. CIG gets a freepass, not being judged for what matters. Giving creds for graphics?? In this day and age? These backers need to go back to EA.
SC should be judged by the gameplay and MMO performance, seeing they themselves decided to dump a ridiculous amount of heavy assets and code into their game. Any big developer could do this with all that money, and they would also have to prove that they could make it work just like CIG still can’t.
A Noobifier summary; what could be more necessary?!
I was actually pretty happy with what they discussed. I personally don't think completion and release dates should be mentioned via a technical presentation, that should be left to their roadmaps, especially given how experimental it is.
I'm incredibly patient person, so that might explain my lack of emotion perhaps? *shrugs*
Been working all weekend, and was unable to watch CitizenCon. Your videos are my saviour!! Thanks Noob!!
Thank you for sitting through that which I could not.
Hi noobifier, your audio is always perfect and that's why I like that you create respectful content to match it, but I do share frustration on the sudden goal change buried in a lot of NoSQL db presentation from cig, unsure why CR wasn't there to clarify this as to me is the backbone of this project, bitter sweet feelings as I loved the 2 hour segment and the ship segment, but this didn't felt right. Hard to recover trust after this, sorry for bringing this down with my comments, cheers.
Again super useful. Thanks for saving my time. Server meshing, will probably be in before Beta. As Beta, would need to focus on the small bugs and not mechanics. But then again, this is SC, so another 12 years will probably tell.
Thank you for saying what we are all thinking.
Your opinions I think resonate with a majority of backers. Can't tell you when because it doesn't exist yet: that's the catch. They can't do it yet and don't know when they can so you get the Assets Show and Ship Sale at Citcon.
With Noobifier's summaries I feel better about sessions I couldn't make because of scheduling conflict. Thanks Noob.
Take care of yourself Noobs, if you didn't post these out at an insane rate I'd still watch them anyway.
They actually said it's basically done. The next steps are hooking the game up to it.
you way of talking and summarizing is great!
Even though I did watch the whole CitizenCon I still turnback and watch your videos!
Very busy and tired this week, I was working when CitizenCon was on, so I really appreciate your summaries.
This panel while filled with good detail and many answers we were wanting, it seemed more like it was aimed at being a showcase to others in the industry.
Perfectly noobofied technobabbles! You can't create information out of thin air man! Keep up the good work!
Exactly my thoughts on the state of the game and on Citizen Con 2021 - thank you for steering clear of the hype and still bringing great, objective (and noBS) summaries!!
Thanks for the update, and thanks for sharing.
I am so thankful for these summaries.
It is a little frustrating that we still dont have dates on big features like this, much like you pointed out it feels like things like this are holding up everything cool to come.
all of the info about where they are is on the progress tracker and has been for months, the entity graph tasks are done, replication layer tasks are almost done and the server meshing deliverable which currently ends in q2 2022 is for converting all existing systems to work in a server meshed enviroment is well underway). I wish they had directed people to the progress tracker to see where things were at during the presentation but it is all there as far as I can see.
I agree the timing was needed, but I think it was worth it to mention that the replication layer (as I understand it) is basically a completely new approach CIG has needed to take to implement server meshing.
The video I was waiting for... English is not my native language, so this technical stuff is really hard for me to understand, thanks a lot ;)
Amazing work, don't hurt yourself.
Can’t wait for server mesh to be implemented, if it’s as detailed as it is described, if players are not in a certain area of the verse, they can move server resources to other areas and improve gameplay where high a population players are to increase tick rate. This will fix a lot of the issues that star Citizen has, especially with latency, lag, and tick rate
In my opinion, the insane amount of detail is necessary for at least _one_ purpose: to understand how they're approaching the development. Personally, my own take-away from the stream was hearing how they designed "ownership"/associations of assets to be chain-linked, instead of columnary:
It's a matter of flexibility for the system, and it seemed to me that they're going away _from_ a columnary hierarchical structure.
Sure, we all know what we _want_ the backend to do, but it's also valuable to know what they have to change the backends _from_. Knowing this is often elucidating for why it takes so much time.
That said, I really don't feel they attempted to convey this. It's sort of a topic we had to construct for ourselves while we were listening, yesterday
Edit: that was my take, yeah - other than that I agree. It was underwhelming to have no set dates.
A true casebook example of "feature-creep". Two years ago, I was really interested in getting into this game. Not so much now!
One thing. They couldn't describe what doesn't exist. What you see is what you get. As far as when, it will be bleeding in with each segment of development. They did say that. We are getting a fair chunk with 3.15. Among their biggest challenges is bringing the system online "hot" as they complete it. As always the users are the biggest and most thorough QA team ever devised.
Another great video that helped me understand .
As a comp sci major, the details WERE the meat of the video. iCache (global storage) is done, and the replication layer sounds like it is on the way. Instanced to shard servers sounds a ways off, as does dynamic shard communication. I think the hold up is brain sweat, ie, not how something can be done, but how it can be done efficiently. So static shards ~1 year, and I'll pull a number out of my posterior, and say dynamic shards and refactoring inside of two years. 🤔 and I will bet my first penny on that 😎
Everything with Citizen con will take years after they present it to us. Look at Planet tech, That was what? two years after they showed it at citizen con? Who is still waiting for Theaters of war? Citizencon to me is seeing cool tech, possible futures and a direction. Nothing more. And Noob, I really like your straight forward approach and all the detail you put into your videos. Thank you.
Edit: I do not see SC getting out of Alpha for another 10 years minimum. That's not a joke or being a nay-sayer. That is my true belief.
Another year then before we get close to static server meshing. Maybe we can PRE ORDER it
If life is a marathon, then SC is an ultra marathon
Crist: I have a Dream!!! And i don't care any more.
CIG needs to deliver and sotp to show us concepts that may be 10 years down the road or never work out.
This is the topic that I am most interested in and I really appreciate you going over this.
Thanks for the updates Noobifier
It's been a long road, gettin' from there to here... and the road's still stretching on over the horizon.
Smashing out the videos! Thanks Noob
I sat through the entirety of Citizencon hoping to know more about when to expect server meshing, and all I learned was that it’s what’s holding back Pyro.
Wow, good job sorting out this info!
I really would not be too concerned about this.
I am a technology architect in my day job. and back in 2005 I worked on a grid based server solution that worked very simular to what CIG is trying to acomplish.
Back then latency was a priority as it was for a teir 1 investment bank (NDA for which one).
So if it was possible back in 2005 for lowlatency global trading grid server solution, then think of what we can do now.
(oh and btw the low latency trading grid solution was not new in 2005, that's only when i go to play with it).
maybe CIG should give me a ring hehe.
Backer here too. Server meshing in a way that we can experience it is another year off. Some people are impatient. Just keep making progress and I’m fine.
Great stuff from you, as usual. From CIG, as usual, beautiful, flashy, extraordinarily detailed information about what their currently doing or planning on doing, but absolutely nothing on when it might be done, or even just how it's going. I understand they don't want to commit to any timelines for so many reasons, I get it, but if that's the case then at least tell us how well the process is going for the teams involved, is it easy, is it extremely difficult, is it currently impossible but they are still working at technicalities to bring it into the realm of possibility? I can't decide if they just don't understand what we want, or if they really don't want to give it to us and they think they're cleverly misdirecting us. Oh well, at least it's good to see their plans, it does at least indicate that they have finally been putting real thought into how to follow through on this ambitious project.
The way they described shards does not live up to the original promise of server meshing. There can still be multiple shards for an area and they match you based on the players you would likely want to interact with. So you can't interact with EVERY player in the space which is basically what was promised.
I thought they always said that the number of players/assets could get too large for a shard, and that's when shards would be split.
@@YourArmsGone right and then they have to decide which changes affect the verse and if you come back you will then be potentially matched with "your" shard vs another. Which still leaves us with a fractured multiverse..
+++ for Server Meshing !
New or not new, always gets a thumbs up