Top 5 Most Useless Units In AoE2
Вставка
- Опубліковано 8 лип 2024
- My Gameplay Channel: / @hera-gameplay
My Twitch: / hera
My Discord: / discord
My Twitter: / hera_aoe
My Instagram: / hera_aoe
Music in this video: • nothing really matters...
00:00 - 00:35 Intro
00:35 - 01:42 5
01:42 - 02:57 4
02:57 - 03:41 3
03:41 - 04:23 2
04:23 - 05:21 Honorable Mention
05:21 - 06:26 1
06:26 - Final Talk & Outro
Edits by K1
/ @k1aoe - Ігри
I was expecting flaming camel to at least get an honourable mention!
flaming camel is not even that bad, they can shred cav very quickly and they train fast. the only problem is that you need a technology to use them and imp, the unit itself isnt horrible
You know, it isn't quite useless, it's very good against cavalry and overall not really bad against buildings. Think about it: fast, cavalry-scaring unit? Not the worst I think.
It's so useless to the point Hera completely forgot its existence 11
@@hansenxavier4403 11
One game my team was way ahead in score and we were all playing tartars so we decided to go full flaming camel 🔥 in a 3v3. It was very satisfying but took forever to win
The Dravidian Battle Elephant:
1. No husbandry
2. No bloodlines
3. No plate barding armour
4. No Elite upgrade
Takes 3 damage from an Turk Skirmisher... Truly fantastic!
11
Ignores all armor
Has trample damage which ignores all armor---
Turk skirms are still number efficient against Aztec arbs
Turk skirmish deal 4 damage on malay battle elephants..
@@rikosakurauchi7161 Not really, Malay have Elite Upgrade, so they take 3 damage too, but they shake it off with +70 HP compared to Dravidian battle elephants
The disrespect on the hussite wagon brings me sorrow
Ikr it's literally a tank it's just so cool
A lot of these units have their uses even if briefly in feudal, but I've never seen missionaries, not even to troll
Viper has used It... Lol
Villese used it versus ACCM in a showmatch at the Grand Melee. And it worked.
@@huythiennguyen2264 Such a fun game. ACCM was actually laughing at the absurdity of losing to missionaries.
They are very useful in my experience. Pair them with conquistadors and you have a very effective comp. I think that was their intention. Fast monks, that can helal your cavalry.
@@kaganozdemir4332 That's how I feel as well. When you're on a spread out map with plenty of skirmishes, and you're already deep into Conquistadors/Cavalry, you throw in a few support Missionaries to makes them slightly more efficient. You never build them early, but you might build them eventually.
*Teuton scout cav breathes sigh of relief*
Cries in Viking Light Cav, Malay Light Cavalry and Korean Hussars.
The siege tower actually pains me… Such a cool unit and concept. I hope they can buff it somehow so that it can see more play!
Easy : give it the ability to shoot arrows if you garrison archers inside.
Historically speaking, siege tower's main role wasn't to assault the walls but to serve as mobile shooting plateforms so that the attacker can bypass the crenelations to reduce the number of soldiers on the walls.
Almost every siege tower had an archer plateform on top of it for this very purpose, assaulting the walls was only it's secondary purpose.
@@RoulicisThe This is a good idea tbh, I hope the devs are listening :)
@@RoulicisThe Imagine mongols with fast mobile towers, or if the arrows were based on the archers inside, like Genoese crossbowmen mowing down cav that come near the tower, Chinese making everything a pin cushion, Britons with insane range, just hit and run. Crazy
@@saintpres4ge533 Depends on how you handle things. The easiest would be to use a similar system to actual towers : with their own damage but gets extra arrows everytime you get that damage value from garrisoning archers.
For example : You give 5 damage to the siege tower with a number of arrows at 0 (so it doesn't shoot when there are no units garrisoned).
You garrison a crossbowman inside (which has 5 attack) you get 1 arrow, then a second arrow if you add a second crossbow, etc...
Would be easier to handle than trying to devise a mechanic for each potential ranged unit you can get inside.
How can a unit that deals no damage cost so much?
It should be half price and available in the barracks from feudal (or behind a feudal tech - like idk wheelbarrow). It's literally a wooden frame on wheels and AOE want me to believe that some chads can't make that while they've got swords, bows and cav.
Imagine you full wall in feudal and the enemy make a ST and pop over. Its an investment, but changes Feudal age. You'll never be safe in feudal.
Teuton scout is actually respectable. Bloodlines and upgrades mean it is decent in melee and not completely awful at raiding
and thanks to the extra melee armor it better than the scout line of many civs who miss both bloodlines and a blacksmith upgrade
its slow and dies to everything
@@MarianoGianni1 Thats not true. With all upgrades it has 6 pierce armor and 65 hp. That means that it is a hard counter to skirmishers and siege and it can take a lot of arrows from defensive buildings.
And since it gets the extra melee armor it counters other weak scout lines.
With the teuton scout you get a unit which can be compared to the byzantin hussar without getting the expansive hussar upgrade.
It is absolutly fine for raiding in the late game, beeing a meat shield against range units and it is a hard counter against monks, skirms and siege.
And eventhough it lacks husbandry its faster than many other units.
@@markusdegenhardt8678 To the point about lacking husbandry but it still being fast, the Light Cavalry upgrade actually reduces the base movement speed of your Scouts, so even though a Light Cav with Husbandry is a bit faster, a Teuton Scout is still faster than a Light Cav without Husbandry, for what it's worth.
It's preeeeeeeeetty good in feudal age if you want to go scouts.
You had me with the Teutonic Knight flailing around in the intermission segments
Flailing around murdering everything in it's path and looking epic as he does it in that cape, is more like it.
Siege towers are very useful with teutons. You can transfer 60 teut knights to the center of enemy base and the havoc they bring just simply paralyze that player. It has a great surprise effect. TK+ST = Blitzkrieg
What about mongols and surprise infantry assault?
@@elduquecaradura1468 never tried such thing. What's the idea behind it? Is it effective?
@@emrekara4191 Viper and Tatoh did it once for the memes. Drill siege towers full of tectonic knights inspire terror. 11
@@PolanaAnurag I like it too. But i m ~1000. So doesnt always end up successful lol
says the 900 mmr noob
I wanted to say Spanish archer because they don't even have crossbowmen. But I've recently seen a match where someone won by surprising the opponent who never expected the Spanish to do an archer rush and was completely unprepared for it.
I was also thinking about them.
Nobody expects the Spanish inquis~I mean archer rush.
there's a lot of civs that dont upgrade some unit in castle age or imp but folks forget at feudal/castle they're still fully upgraded
not a great long term but going for them as a rush is actually good
Advantages of Spanish sneak archer rush:
1. Unexpected (surprise)
2. May panic opponent (fear)
3. Cheaper fletching (ruthlessly efficient)
4. Doesn't hard die to mangonels because of your great monks (fanatical devotion etc.)
I'd like to add that you can also switch to CA in castle, that's so as unexpected.
The Hussite Wagon (in my limited experience) is actually situationally great. They do very well against Organ Guns, so it's good in some specific match ups and maps.
Yeah especially at low to mid elo on arena or Black Forest, if you hit a 13 or 14 minute fast castle and spam 10 to 15 or more of them into your opponent’s eco it’s often enough to win you the game on the spot or at least get you ahead enough to switch into your actual win cons
@@JoycenatorGaming For me it's more about getting a peace of mind from getting organ gun castle dropped in castle age. Though that was before the berry/wood buff, maybe Portos are too fast since then :)
@@undefined6341 yeah especially now with Portos being so good and Organ rush so common it’s great having something that can just soak up some shots and force them to actually play the game 😅
This dude just a noob. Hussite wagon great support unit. It can change archery duels in ur favor pretty easily.
@@user-rv7kk1to9h …did you just call the top ranked player in the world a noob?
I expected the Spanish archer. And I was mentally ready to defend him! :) Good list!
That was my guess too!
Same.
The Spanish Archer is so bad, that is is actually decent, because NOBODY Expects the Spanish Archer Rush
if you think Spanish archer is useless, just look at Bulgarian archer lol (missing final archer armor upgrade)
The Spanish get access to archers? Since when?
As a passionated bohemian player, i have to defend the Hussite wagon. Am a around 1000 elo player and i often use it in square formation in combination with hellebards and handcannons. I put my ranged units on Stand ground and micro my helleebards freely. It feels awersome when it works.
So... Historically accurate hussite playtrough. Nice xD
I think Hera is right on all of those with one little caveat. I think ELO is a consideration. I’m an 1100 and frequent sieges tower on arena. It’s not that expected and I often finish an opponent early with that strat.
trust me ive died to siege tower on arena too 11...but its definitely useless in most cases
@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 bro, I’ll totally agree, most the time not gonna have a practical use. ESPECIALLY not at a pro level. But us plebs make use of them from time to time. DONT TAKE MY JOY Haha
@@HeraAgeofEmpires2 issue is when u jump from wall u cant go back. U have limited units and u cant jump with cavalry too.
@@MrBerkiMrBerki Which is why you mostly want to jump walls with something like longsword and put a barracks down behind it. Siege tower is essentially a mobile hole in the enemy's walls if you do that
so siege tower is definitely useless unless you need to get over a wall? Because that sounds pretty realistic.
someone get Survivalist in here to stop this blasphemy
Hussite wagon is really good in black forest and amazon tunnel where all units are close together and you almost always need a way to protect your units from ranged enemies. Just mix in a few with Halb and you can push almost any comp in a crowded tunnel.
Was really expecting to see the Dravidian light cav here. No last armour, no bloodlines, and no husbandry.
That's a fair unit to include.
Dravidian light cav is actually not bad. It can ignore armour, it's decent in rading and still decent in killing low attack or hp units .
Wootz steel tech makes it ignore armour, which essentially make them a glass cannon unit.
Yeah, that was my guess for the n°1!
Unlike Xolotl warrior, which you cannot even make most of the game, Dravidians do have access to a stable. But it is a complete was of time and res to make anything from their stables in basically 100% of the games.
Dravidian light cav is a Viking light cav that ignores armor. Hardly the worst.
The worst scout line belongs to Malay: No bloodlines, hussar upgrade, missing 2 armor upgrades
koreans have the second worst scout line because their hussars miss 2 blacksmith techs and bloodlines. Not to mention you have to pay an overpriced upgrade for a subpar unit.
Flaming Camel: Am I a joke to you?
I find the Hussite Wagon is good in a Post Imperial Bohemian deathball. It's so tanky that another death ball like the Tatar Keshek/heavy camel + Heavy Cav archer can't wipe it out, the wagons are so tanky against ranged units that you have to micro to avoid targeting it. I've done tests and Tatars with hill bonus can win everymatch up, except against Bohemians, without constant micro
If resources are no object I agree. They are expensive for what they do though... also hard countered by siege
I don't think Tatar death ball can counter persian elephant
@@nemou4985 Up hill bonus + 50%, Camel frontline, horse archer backline. It's the only way Tatar beats Equal numbers of Frankish Paladin.
With micro, Tatar horse archers should win against Persian war elephants
@@saintpres4ge533he meant the war wagons vs war elephants
But then again, the bohemian spearmen are better than average
@@elduquecaradura1468 Old discussion but at the time it was a Tatar deathball not a Bohemian death ball in terms of vs Persian Deathball iirc
Villese got a lot of value from a siege tower against Rubenstock in the HC3 decider, he used it to transport his longswords forward to kill 3 monks and 3 mangonels as Ruben couldn't convert anything, that's the only time I can remember siege tower being used
I remember 1 game where viper vs tatoh, they got into a stalemate, tatoh has multiple castle to hold a choke point and viper could not break it with ram nor trebuchet, viper put 30 gbeto in 3 siege tower and just charge through the castle into tatoh's economy.
Unforgettable.
Tatoh has made use ofTeutonic Knight-filled Siege Towers in some team games
Saw Tatoh making Mongol Siege towers to transport Vipers Teutonic Knights around. Chasing down, hit and run units vs SY/China team :D Was glorious
@@times1132 yea, you don't use siege towers to get over walls. you use them as battle busses lol
how would do you feel about the wagon's blocking effect being implemented as an area around the wagon where units close to it take less damage?
From the title I was actually expecting 5 seperate units instead of variations on unit types, I think this makes it less interesting although your points certainly make sense. Gotta ask though: what about the flaming camel, the trade cog and the bulgarian/spanish archer?
Trade Cogs have limited use but provide higher trade value than carts, Flaming Camels are niche but have use against mobs of elephant units so it’s value kind of went up with the introduction of the Indian civs, and Spanish/Bulgarian archers have their place as an extremely counter-intuitive early game strategy kind of like Viking Knights; refer to the video “No one expects this Spanish strategy!” from Spirit of the Law who puts this case on display.
@@grantbeardsley278 Valid points but I think all of these units are still "more useless" than Gurjara spears since that's still a perfectly generic counter unit in feudal
@@AS.47 im not so sure about that.
If you believe it or not spanish archers with bracer and all armor upgrades are a nice counter in early imperial age against all in halbs.
But i agree that gurjarian spears are more usefull that thoose archers.
Just imagine how the civs would be without it. The Spanish would lose an unexpected strategy but the gurjaras couldnt defend properly without having a stable and gold income to produce camel scouts...
Literally nothing replaces the trade cog in what it does. Trade gold in island themed maps. Until trade carts can swim that's the only choice in those situations.
I guess trade units in 1v1 in general are quite useless.
Great topic, videos that generates opinions are successful ones, really enjoyed this one!
Happy to see that I'm not the only one finding the Hussite Wagon useful though. Could definitely be an ELO thing, I reckon they are more useful in the low to mid elo range, as players in general have a harder time countering them at those levels.
As many mentioned they are a great counter against organ guns and while their bonus is difficult and clunky to use on open maps, it's much easier on Black Forest or Amazon Tunnel. I also find them good on arena, an early castle push with them can be really difficult to stop!
But yeah, they are definitely situational in that sense.
My guess was the Flaming Camel. But great selection of useless units! You could perhaps make a follow up video about what those civs can produce instead, e.g. in case of turks go hussar instead of skirms when facing arbs
I think they should make the Xlotol Warrior receive the infantry armour upgrades, and maybe stat upgrades depending on the age the stable was converted (if the opponent was in Castle, it has knight stats, if the opponent was in imperial, it gets cavalier stats).
The unit is already so hard to get that I don't think it would change the balance in any way.
And it would be extremely fun if they could get camels and elephant equivalents depending on the civ the stable was converted from.
Imagine a mesoamerican warrior on an elephant.
There should just be an elite Upgrade in the stable making it a cavalier stats wise. And Infantry armor should affect it.
Spirit of the law made a video about turk pikemen and skirmishers and he found out that they are not that useless
They're not great but they can still do their job
The answer is easy! Any unit I make in a 1v1!
No but, for the Hussite Wagon specifically - I’ve only ever used them to fill the role of an “Annoying Ram”. Just throw it into a fight and hope it soaks up some damage 11. Usually done because I’m too noob to have actual rams ready to go once the fight starts.
Hey Hera, when was the last time you made a Burmese cav archer? Or a Celt cav archer?
Exactly my thought. The spearman gets made in almost every game actually, how is that the no1 useless unit when nobody ever makes let's say a missionary?
I'm reminded of a match in HC3 where siege towers and longswords were used to counter a monk push.
Flaming camel is probably #1 for me. All the other untits mentioned can be useful in at least 1 rare situation.
I love your videos so much , cant get enough.
I'd love a siege tower rework that turns it into a unit which "self-builds" into a building turning an enemy wall into essentially a gate that your units have slower movement through. After its deployed, you can just click your units on the other side of the wall and they pathfind through the tower/wall
Petards and flaming Camels should worth an honourable mention at least, if xolotol warrior is here
The siege tower feels like someone on the development team REALLY liked that idea and was excited to implement a new game mechanic into the game. Just never found a place in the game though.
I remember back in the Day were "Forgotten Empires" was a mod for Aoe, they implemented siege Towers.
But they could Shoot arrows and were probably OP.
@@geheimeWeltregierung Sounds like the dev really loves Romance of Three Kingdoms series by Koei
The biggest bummer with the siege tower was when I realised they can not transfer villagers to sneak buildings in. Then I also realised you cannot drop monks either to steal relics (although even if you could, the monk couldn’t get back the same way it got inside, but maybe a transport ship or something could evacuate him)
1. several units in this video are simply units that miss a lot of techs from a particular civ.
2. The hussite wagon is not that bad, it has high hp and does a lot of damage, if your opponent makes a large army of this unit, it will not be easy to beat and it helps a lot in campaigns when you make it.
3. Yes siege tower needs a buff, at minimum it should be able to shoot generic arrows, maybe more like the hussite wagon, but shoot both small arrows and thick war galley arrows at stuff and make them do more than 1 damage vs ram/trebuchet/siege elephant.
4. Maybe we should allow aztecs, mayans, and inca to build stable and make xolotl warriors and make it count as infantry unit for the purposes of armor upgrades in blacksmith. Xolotl warrior has generic knight stats at 100 hp and 10 attack (no husbandry and no bloodlines).
5. More about #1: Tatars need their castle age infantry armor upgrade. Burmese need their castle age archer armor. Malay need their castle age cavalry armor upgrade. Persians should get 2 handed swordsman but lose infantry armor upgrade and get instead the bracer. Yes turks miss the elite skirmisher unless vietnamese ally. But they have all blacksmith techs on him same for spearman. I think gujaras need to regain pikeman or simply rely on their camels to deal with cavalry since they do extra bonus damage their unique unit attack should not have been nerfed.
Actually bohemian wagon is just a much better ram when it comes to taking arrow fire. Hera is underestimating its effect.
Hera loves rams!
I think they should have made the hussite wagon change forms like the trebuchet, and in the fixed form it would get a big boost in melee armour.
This way it could become like a movable palisade and be more like how it was used in reality.
It would be useful to create quick choke points.
In movement could be low accuracy but tanky vs ranged, fixed position be better aiming but low range also having a secret bonus vs cavalry.
I'm glad I am not the only one who think it that way
@@elduquecaradura1468, with the extra armor, I don't even think it would be necessary to change the attack.
The idea would be to make a wall between your ranged units and the enemy, similar to how infantry and light cavalry is sometimes used with archers, but totally sacrificing mobility in exchange of a lot of resistance.
@@thomasfplm Personally I think having the units inside shoot arrows like a town hall out of it would also make it quite good but maybe requiring an elite upgrade to balance it
@@erikburzinski8248, the real hussite wagons were used to make "instant fortifications" and had people inside it shooting attackers.
An option would be to have the elite upgrade change from arrows to bullets, increasing the damage and bônus damage.
"it's not bad, it's just useless" perfect description
Is it impractical to make 2-4 hussite wagons to support archers before you can transition into castle-age gunpowder/spears/siege, if your opponent is using skirmishers, to micro your archers around the wagons to keep them between you and the skirms while the wagons are chipping away too?
Like it's not anything you'd want to make outside that scenario, but isn't early bohemian archers, and expecting to face skirmishers, a common scenario?
They should just make hussite wagon a ram-like siege weapon that range units garrison inside can attack outside(effectively an additional health bar for range units). I don't even think wagon's attack in its currently form is bad, it's just this blocking special ability is way too niche to be useful in a matchup.
It does help alot actually, its just not a main unit, its a teally good support unit though.
I clicked on the video having misread it as "most useless hints" and was very intrigued. Useless units makes more sense but I'd definitely watch a video of the most useless hints.
I don't know
Imagine Gujaras losing the spearmen completely, wouldn't that hurt them more than Spanish losing missionary for example? No spear at all in feudal sounds rough
hussite wagons are strong against all in archer feudal pushes when you have a fast castle (example: saracens archer rush on hideout against bohemians)
I think it would be fun for the Gurjaras spearman to benefit from the +4 melee armor upgrade from their Frontier Guards tech. Functionally I do not think it would change balance much but I think it would make mirror matches more interesting and create similar meme potential as the Teutons scout.
Can you put petard in siege tower and speed them across the map? if you miss the army wide enough you could drop petards on a tc seconds after massing them safely in base. Siege towers are clunky but god they are fast. I havent tried it but if its possible is it viable?
The part that hurts the most is that useless siege tower in AoE2 is GODLIKE medieval drive-by in Stronghold Legends. You stuff it full of archers, add some arbalests to the mix and go to sprinkletown.
Hussite wagons are dope if you micro well. You can plug up a choke point with a mass of them and then have hand cannons and bombards behind them wreaking havoc. Sprinkle in some halberds to fill the gaps in the wagons and you have a pretty unbeatable death star for black forest or Amazon tunnel maps.
Hera, t90, SOTL. The golden age of AOE2! Your comment about the Hussite wagon is so accurate. the only use i've ever found for it is tanky eco raiding if and only if you fast castle WAY before they do and can batter down lots of eco before they can drop a castle.
Jordan actually won a game with Persians longswords and the transition really made sense.
Lategame against Celts who were Halb-Siege, and not enough gold to go Hand Cannonneers. Cavalry options and Kamandaran Crossbows were unable to deal with the Halb-Siege ball, Longswords was legit the only way to hold the center while Hussars raided. Verrrrry situational, but I do believe that made sense.
So what would you change to the Hussite Wagon or the Siege Tower to make them useful, but not so good as to unbalance the game? The other ones are just normal units that happen to be very bad for some civs, which I think is OK. But if those two are never useful, that's a problem that should be fixed.
Hussite wagon can be used for the same effect of rams in front of archers to just distract enemy fire, which can come in useful if you're being overwhelmed by xbows and arbs. I would leave it at 6th most useless unit and replace it with the flaming camel, whose specialty is killing a massed unit that is basically never massed in 1v1 and hardly ever on TGs
What about Spanish archers? I reckon that in Imperial Age, there is not a single situation where you'd make that unit instead of Hand Cannoneer.
One might argue that if you are out of gold and the Market is bottomed out, Turk Smirmishers or Gurjara Spearmen might have a place in some very specific situations.
Debatable. Franks and Celts miss Thumb Ring on their X-bows which is almost as bad in Castle, and lacking blacksmith upgrades makes them inferior in Imperial Age. And Archers are a proactive unit while trash units are reactive. Spanish can still Archer rush in Feudal as a surprise attack, and it helps that their blacksmith upgrades costs no gold.
The hussite Wagon is so funny in retroperspective since we saw what we saw in Titans leage :D
A person who just enjoys playing with elephant units despite they’re slow, expensive, and have cheap counters, I was sweating bullets on that number 1 spot. Lol
One trend among several of these units is that they exist to ensure that civ can mount a reasonable defense against an aggressive scout or archer build in early Feudal. Sure, you won't make an army comp of them in Castle or beyond, but if you took them out as options, your opponent would know you have no counter and could crush you. Bad spearmen buy you time to get to camels and bad skirms buy time to get cav or siege.
Said another way, removing those units would ruin the early balance, and buffing them enough to be useful late would probably make those civs OP in some situations.
In regards to using the wagons as cover for archers, it's especially redundant when you consider that the same outcome (absorbing enemy fire) can be achieved by *literally any other unit* that can also close distance AND deal damage.
No, not literally other unit. No other unit can absorb the damage while the arrows flies over it to hit the target behind. Hussite wagons is literally the only unit which achieves that, even the only object because not even walls do that. The problem really is what Hera says - in order to use it effectively they have to be in front, and that might prove difficult if your opponent doesn't enjoy having the wagons between him and his targets and moves around.
I’ve used hussite wagons quite succesfully to counter organguns and jannisaries.
I think you generally want to have a ball of ranged units behind doing their thing, and you micro the wagons, houfnice and halbs.
But at that point in the game, they are probably just wasting population
Those kind of army compositions and formations makes it immobile and prone to destruction once you try to relocate.
@@ks_movies Oh yes totally, but it’s not like Organ guns and jannies are super mobile either/want to fight on multiple fronts.
The key to winning against ‘deathball’ civs is to spread their lines thin/fight on multiple fronts.
But I feel like Bohemians is the civ that does best in a head to head against other deathballs.
But they take so loong to get to that comp. The reverse arena thingy in TTL has some very good examples of the Bohemian player trying to get to the deathball but ultimately failing because it was so hard to aford it.
I feel like they are not figured out yet, but when they are, prepare for some heavy nerfs
@@lukiano4704 Hm you seem to be speaking from experience, I just speculated, maybe you're correct. Need to watch it in action to make my decision.
@@lukiano4704 OK just found a god level play with them:
ua-cam.com/video/Cu1l7he0djg/v-deo.html
Pretty much. Hun scorpions are worse IMO. No competitive Hun player makes them.
Phew it's a good thing Gurjaras have a unique counter to everything otherwise without good spears they might be screwed XD
The guess for me was Turtle Ship
Turtle ship is great, it wrecks fire ships.
Hera: "The Xolotl Warrior looks really cool."
Me: *staring intently at the Meso Stable instead of the unit* ...Oh.
Why is hussite wagon useless and the organ gun a good unit? Isn't the hussite wagon good vs archers too?
Main issue with wagons - their attack mechanic. If to compare organ guns shoot all their projectiles and go for 3.45s reload before next attack. Wagons after shoot with big bullet have to shoot his small and low damage bullets , only after that they finish their attack cycle and go to reload 3.45s. Which makes them not only annoying to micro, also their dps is low for high price unit. Overall i would say hussite wagons rather very situational unit than useless - in small numbers they can be used like rams to absorb pierce damage . But mass production is not wothy in most scenarions - they took much damage from mangonels , also they not good vs most melee units.
@valger I have done some tests in map editor and you are right. Organ guns are much better to micro vs knights, for example. I still think they could be useful vs archer civs to absorb pierce damage, as you said, and in an arena castle age push (although not as good as organ guns).
@@marceloromano8774 Nowdays arena castle age push with wagons should be stopped with mangonels . Having +1 range and massive bonus damage they hardly counters wagons. Against organ guns push its much more tricky to defend with mangonels - with same range guns fight back twice and kills mangonels very fast.
Although situations , when wagons are good are existing. For ex. in nomad CD war vs arch uu could be very annoying for enemy to deal with wagons early on. Or on closed maps castle age wagon push with redemption monks follow or in tg's with some kts from ally.
as a czech, im still going to use the hussite wagon because its just nessesary for our Žižka style
siege tower is crucial to my briton arena build and so far has never traded badly
@Hera - Age of Empires 2 personally the siege tower will be a good unit if it would receive a buff for example if her would cost less or if it her stopped fleeing at the slightest enemy fire and would perhaps allow you to shoot arrows with archers inside
I like how the siege tower can get your units straight to the town center without all dying to the castles in front
Personally I think having the units inside shoot arrows like a town hall out of it would also make it quite good but maybe requiring an elite upgrade to balance it
If Persians have an Italian ally, they get access to a fully upgraded Condottiero which somewhat covers the infantry weakness. Same goes for Turks with a Berber ally who get a fully upgraded Genitour which somewhat covers the skirmisher weakness.
There are so many tier lists and top fives, that almost every topic has been covered.... but there is one which might be interesting to see. Top 5 generalist civs. There are many top civs which are great because they are exceptionally strong in one specialization they can use to great advantage... but what about civs which aren't the first in anything, but have a wide variety of options.
I guess spanish and bulgarian archers have some room in this game
That's a reason, historically speaking, why hussite wagons saw very brief use before being discarded at all :D
I was actually waiting for the Slingers. I've never really seen top tier players use it.
They might be used when a player try to defend against eagles in castle age using LS
Slingers completely destroy Goths around mid elo
useful against aztecs or goths
One theory:
The reason ppl dont go infantry against incas is because they can counter it very easily.
So, while it is not used, it makes your game plan easier.
Slingers were good BEFORE they took the anti-artilley damage, they need some anti-artillery damage back. Only ranged way incas can engage arty
Feels like the wagon's bonus could be better used if they implemented a unique formation for a army with wagons, where the wagons are lined up at the front.
I think they should have a form change like the trebuchet, but getting a lot of melee armour and working like a movable palisade.
It would be pretty cool if they added a tech called something like "Cloth Caparison" to a converted stable as mesoamericans that would give Xolotl warriors like 20 hp and 1/1 armor (like a combination of bloodlines and scale barding armor), but give it a similar cost to both those techs so that you can think "is it worth it to get it? this stable might get demolished after all..." At least converting a stable as mesoamerican wouldn't be as complete of a meme as it is now, give it a little more viability when you happen to attain a stable at a moment in the game where let's say you're playing Aztecs with a siege-monk push, your siege has been recently destroyed, you're building new, but your monks have converted a few forward enemy production buildings, so you can use less useless Xolotls as a stopgap to defend your monks.
What makes Hussite Wagons bad is the three additional projectilles combined with very slow rate of fire. They were used to be a hard counter to cavalry, and they are terrible against cavalry.
"You don't have supplies"
This is actually an improvement to the civ below 400 ELO.
At first, I thought of flaming camel.. But I can actually think of scenarios where it could be quite useful.. For example if Tatars go Hussar/Cav Archer and opponent spams camels..
What about the missionary (unit)?
Ive made siege tower work plenty of times in around 1400 Team game elo. Its niche, not useless. Massive difference.
1:55 This unit is as if the designers knew Bohemians were known for wagon forts but didn't know what that is and just interpreted it as a fortified wagon...
Funnily enough, spears are actually not even bad in a Gurjara mirror in the Castle Age since it always just becomes a camel war until Chakrams come out, so spearmen can tank a lot of hits and are the cheapest unit Gurjaras can make that does not automatically lose against the Gurjara stable.
ive been playing the jan zizka campain on hard and the hussite wagon was pretty useful
Haha
Saw the hate on Spearman coming.
Very useful tho in Death Match when already at post-imperial.
I expected scorpion to be on the list. When I got to your #1 I figured there was probably something weaker than it but man that unit sucks even when playing Khmer.
First time I encountered the War Wagon, it shredded my Mangudai in spite of their siege-bonus and thought it was OP.
Hera giving mad love to the flaming camel.
Well imagine the shock my opposition gets when 10 seige towers turn up full of fully upgraded teutonic knights on arena. It's brilliant they don't half move fast!
Personally I think having the units inside shoot arrows like a town hall out of it would also make it quite good but maybe requiring an elite upgrade to balance it
There was a gurgaras vs Turks game where they were both making Spears and it were valid choices
Actually Hera, Mayans can make the Xolotl Warrior in some circumstances. Mayans don't get Redemption, it's true, but they do get Atonement. So you just have to convert your opponent's Redemption monks, then convert their stables, and then make Xolotls. GG EZ!
great caaaatch
That works?
@@junocash4047 I haven't personally tried it, but it should. Converted units keep their old upgrades, and for Monks that would include Redemption.
Converted units/buildings saves old upgrades/civ bonuses. But there is exeption - redemption, atonment, faith , heresy and teuton team bonus from old owner no longer affects to converted unit. But those techs affects to unit, if new owner was reseached it.
So converted monk only saves his stats ( until he capture relic, which reset his settings to generic new owner monk - most likely its a bug like with old Madrasah and converted onager) and even converted sicilian monk still affected by First crusade, but he can convert buildings only if new owner will research it.
@@valger3652 sad, I wish this worked
I thought number one was Flaming Camel and that Missionaries would be an honorable mention but maybe donks are not that bad.
:D :D :D you dont mean it to menton the hussites wagon here right??? Have you ever faced a mass of these tanks which combined with halbs and houfnice (maybe hand canon) are almost impossible to be taken down... because such a hord of high HP with greath pierce armor and big damage - almost impossible to get closer...
@Hera My guess is the Teuton scout cav, no husbandry and no light cav upgrade.
Siege tower is such a disappointment. I tried surprise raiding on arena once and by the time I managed to get over the damn wall, my opponent had realized and made counter units. I never again made even one of those.
chad hera
I got stomped once by hussite wagons playing flank on arena map 4v4 in castle age. First was 5 or 6 of them and then my opponent just kept massing them and I was helpless to stop him. After that he finished my pocket teammate just as quick.
Given Hera's love for Hussars I would have expected the Teuton scout cav to be on this list
Viking Light Cavalry, Korean Hussars and Malay Light Cavalry are all worse and they are still used on Arena.
I was half expecting the Petard to appear on the video, NGL.
There's something darkly amusing about how Burgundians, Chinese, Cumans and Mongols have fully-upgraded Champions sans Supplies...while Persians of all civs do get that tech for their fully upgraded Longswords.
What about the Spanish missionary? It lacks the range compared to standard monks, and can't pick up relics. Yes it has mobility, but can't say I've ever seen them used online.
Easy way to patch Xolotl warriors - make them get their armor upgrades from the melee armor techs.
A more elegant way IMO would be to make them profit from Imperial Age unique techs (Garland Wars etc.).
@@01Sangahyando I don't think that would be quite enough, but I certainly would welcome this decision
The funny thing is that native american civilizations did rapidly adapt to using horses after european incursion...
1:54 sad hussite wagon noises 😢
I had to go gurjara spearmen once against a herd of incoming battle elephants.. i had xbow and not enough gold for many camels.
Hisste Wagon can act as a diversion force for cavalry attacks, they are, after freaking medieval tanks.