Oh dear! I've been told "I have to care about your character before I care about what happens to them. Make me care, then drop me into the action." The more I listen to agents the more I feel like a ribbon on a kite. Which way does the wind blow today?
I think for me, both are true. I like to start right in the action, like John said, but you can't go on and on for pages and pages without giving me any character development. For example, I once read a book where the entire first chapter was pages and pages of a fight scene, and I found that extremely boring. It was interesting at first, but the longer it went on, the more I felt like I really didn't care what was happening to thos character because I didn't even know him yet. Also, starting in at the last possible moment doesn't have to exclude character development. There are ways to add that in without starting your book with an info dump of exposition.
Probably just a matter of having a good agent match for your story. For me, “Last possible moment” is ejaculation without foreplay. I’m sure a lot of readers enjoy the build up before pulling the trigger.
Honestly very insightful and helpful to consider, I wish there were even more specifics or recommendations on how to even professionally get our manuscripts to this point (including the query/agent/editor engagement)! Thanks so much for hosting an industry professional with insight as to what they’re looking for and what they’re often considering. I also would love to hear more about the nonfiction proposal templates/criteria he was mentioning and also if there is anything particular to be aware of for historical fiction and nonfiction. Thanks so much for the great content and encouragement!
@ 21:03--23:40 I vitally needed this advice! I was going to have two time jumps in the first two chapters of my current Novel. Well, time to cut some scenes!
On how _not_ to open a novel: Jon implied you shouldn't follow the example of movies when structuring a novel's opening. He's right. The movie ticket's been paid for, or DVD's been purchased, by the time the viewer sees the opening credits. Viewers don't expect the story to start before the opening credits finish rolling. On the other hand a potential reader will pick up your book in the store, or do the "look inside" on Amazon. If the story doesn't start on page 1 most readers won't buy your book. The visuals behind the title and opening credits roughly correspond to a book's cover illustration.
@@anthonyryan9954, all writing advice is like the Pirate's Code--more of a set of suggestions, really. Great suggestions. Awesome suggestions. And best carefully followed by new authors. It's the established authors who may flaunt the rules, but only because they have a built-in audience. But you knew this.
I really enjoy your content with professionals in the publishing industry. I was wondering if you could do livestream about the 3-act structure and beat sheets at some point? Or a livestream where a professional critiques first lines/pages similar to the one that was posted a few months ago? That one was incredibly insightful and offers a different mode of learning for some viewers! Keep up the great work. I really enjoy your content and I know you and the team work hard. Take care of yourselves!
Can anyone tell me when agents ask 10 pages, so it should be double spaced before or after? I mean when I double space my 10 pages it becomes 22 pages, so how many should I send 10 or 22 pages?
Should be ten pages double spaced. If double spacing turns ten pages to twenty, send the ten pages. Your manuscript will also be double spaced, so it should already be double spaced.
Imagine if every newly published book began "at the last possible moment". How many books would begin with a dead body? Stories would all feel so formulaic that there would be a massive backlash. Also imagine if every book published in the past was edited to fit this ideal as well. Ugh. This advice is 'Save the Cat' level dumbing down and I hope people ignore it.
Yeah exactly. I felt all of his "advice" was more about putting you in this acceptable box. Where is the artistic expression then? If every book needs to start that way or every chapter should work towards the plot then you're just giving a template for producing a herd of sheep authors writing the same style. I've read countless books that don't follow any of these rules. The biggest example is Joe Abercrombie and his debut book The Blade Itself. It has over 7 POVs, doesn't have a climax or build up at all. Doesn't have a "last possible moment" opening but it's a book you can't put down. And the only reason for that is his writing style, his characterizations. The way he writes such complex characters. So, I honestly think you should not compromise your writing style for these "advices". Imagine if Rowling had followed this advice. We probably wouldn't have got Harry Potter. P.s. Just my opinion, if you believe in these advices then I hope it works for you. Peace.
I may be 4 years late, but the starting advice at 20:12 is actually killing good stories and characters. I want you to think about all the good stories before 2010. Two in particular. The Wrath of Kahn and The Lord of the Rings. Now, follow the advice. Both stories would not have an impact on people.
If every author went down this route of starting their book at "the last possible moment" it would be very tiresome and that formula would become a cliche. I don't agree with the editor's comment about murder mysteries and how there MUST be a dead body by the end of the first chapter. I read PLENTY of murder mysteries where dead bodies weren't in the first chapter nor in the second or third or fourth---and I never felt cheated---, and the characters and the tension between them held my interest until the body showed up, i.e., 2 examples would be from an old classic from 1937 by Agatha Christie called "Death On The Nile" and a modern one from 2014 called Murder At The Brightwell by Ashley Weaver. And by the way, if an editor reads the query letter, he or she will know that what they're reading is a murder mystery and a dead body will show up eventually, even if that body doesn't show up by the end of the first chapter in the manuscript. What if the story is interesting and the prose is well-written, even without a dead body by the end of the first chapter? That editor could be missing out on a possible best-seller! And what if you start out a mystery the way this editor prefers, and the rest of the mystery doesn't hold up? Then the manuscript would still be rejected. It didn't matter that a dead body cropped up in the first chapter. Look, what works for one mystery, may not work for another. All mysteries aren't the same, neither do they all begin the same way, and they shouldn't be.
Oh dear! I've been told "I have to care about your character before I care about what happens to them. Make me care, then drop me into the action." The more I listen to agents the more I feel like a ribbon on a kite. Which way does the wind blow today?
I think for me, both are true. I like to start right in the action, like John said, but you can't go on and on for pages and pages without giving me any character development.
For example, I once read a book where the entire first chapter was pages and pages of a fight scene, and I found that extremely boring. It was interesting at first, but the longer it went on, the more I felt like I really didn't care what was happening to thos character because I didn't even know him yet.
Also, starting in at the last possible moment doesn't have to exclude character development. There are ways to add that in without starting your book with an info dump of exposition.
Probably just a matter of having a good agent match for your story. For me, “Last possible moment” is ejaculation without foreplay. I’m sure a lot of readers enjoy the build up before pulling the trigger.
@@CeruleanAether was there really no other metaphor? 😂😂
Live feed starts at 4:02, and Jon comes on at 10:00
Honestly very insightful and helpful to consider, I wish there were even more specifics or recommendations on how to even professionally get our manuscripts to this point (including the query/agent/editor engagement)! Thanks so much for hosting an industry professional with insight as to what they’re looking for and what they’re often considering. I also would love to hear more about the nonfiction proposal templates/criteria he was mentioning and also if there is anything particular to be aware of for historical fiction and nonfiction. Thanks so much for the great content and encouragement!
I somehow missed this while it was live, but am looking forward to watching it. Thank you Reedsy, as usual, for the insight into the industry!
@ 21:03--23:40 I vitally needed this advice! I was going to have two time jumps in the first two chapters of my current Novel. Well, time to cut some scenes!
Enjoyed this very much. Main point I learned is to write my query like the flap on the hardback that describes the book so you'll buy it.
On how _not_ to open a novel: Jon implied you shouldn't follow the example of movies when structuring a novel's opening. He's right. The movie ticket's been paid for, or DVD's been purchased, by the time the viewer sees the opening credits. Viewers don't expect the story to start before the opening credits finish rolling. On the other hand a potential reader will pick up your book in the store, or do the "look inside" on Amazon. If the story doesn't start on page 1 most readers won't buy your book. The visuals behind the title and opening credits roughly correspond to a book's cover illustration.
To be taken with salt!
@@anthonyryan9954, all writing advice is like the Pirate's Code--more of a set of suggestions, really. Great suggestions. Awesome suggestions. And best carefully followed by new authors. It's the established authors who may flaunt the rules, but only because they have a built-in audience. But you knew this.
@@ScottyDMcom yes I’m reading ready player two atm, I’m aware!
This was uploaded on my mum's birthday. She was born in the Year of the Rat as well. 1948. Crazy coincidence.
I could listen to Jon all day long. Great advice and insights! He seems like a lovely person.
it was my pleasure to hire Mr. Jon Darga to help with my memoir!!! :)
This was absolutely great! Thanks, Jon and Reedsy!
I really enjoy your content with professionals in the publishing industry. I was wondering if you could do livestream about the 3-act structure and beat sheets at some point? Or a livestream where a professional critiques first lines/pages similar to the one that was posted a few months ago? That one was incredibly insightful and offers a different mode of learning for some viewers! Keep up the great work. I really enjoy your content and I know you and the team work hard. Take care of yourselves!
No. He squeezed the trigger. Not pulled.
lmao. I know exactly what you did there.
Thank you for your great program - very helpful! Susan Scarf from New Zealand
Really good tips. Thanks
21:00 such great advide!
Can anyone tell me when agents ask 10 pages, so it should be double spaced before or after? I mean when I double space my 10 pages it becomes 22 pages, so how many should I send 10 or 22 pages?
Should be ten pages double spaced. If double spacing turns ten pages to twenty, send the ten pages. Your manuscript will also be double spaced, so it should already be double spaced.
Imagine if every newly published book began "at the last possible moment". How many books would begin with a dead body? Stories would all feel so formulaic that there would be a massive backlash. Also imagine if every book published in the past was edited to fit this ideal as well. Ugh.
This advice is 'Save the Cat' level dumbing down and I hope people ignore it.
Yeah exactly. I felt all of his "advice" was more about putting you in this acceptable box. Where is the artistic expression then? If every book needs to start that way or every chapter should work towards the plot then you're just giving a template for producing a herd of sheep authors writing the same style. I've read countless books that don't follow any of these rules. The biggest example is Joe Abercrombie and his debut book The Blade Itself. It has over 7 POVs, doesn't have a climax or build up at all. Doesn't have a "last possible moment" opening but it's a book you can't put down. And the only reason for that is his writing style, his characterizations. The way he writes such complex characters. So, I honestly think you should not compromise your writing style for these "advices". Imagine if Rowling had followed this advice. We probably wouldn't have got Harry Potter.
P.s. Just my opinion, if you believe in these advices then I hope it works for you. Peace.
Very helpful. Thank you
Advice starts on @16
"Um,"
I may be 4 years late, but the starting advice at 20:12 is actually killing good stories and characters.
I want you to think about all the good stories before 2010. Two in particular. The Wrath of Kahn and The Lord of the Rings. Now, follow the advice. Both stories would not have an impact on people.
If every author went down this route of starting their book at "the last possible moment" it would be very tiresome and that formula would become a cliche. I don't agree with the editor's comment about murder mysteries and how there MUST be a dead body by the end of the first chapter. I read PLENTY of murder mysteries where dead bodies weren't in the first chapter nor in the second or third or fourth---and I never felt cheated---, and the characters and the tension between them held my interest until the body showed up, i.e., 2 examples would be from an old classic from 1937 by Agatha Christie called "Death On The Nile" and a modern one from 2014 called Murder At The Brightwell by Ashley Weaver. And by the way, if an editor reads the query letter, he or she will know that what they're reading is a murder mystery and a dead body will show up eventually, even if that body doesn't show up by the end of the first chapter in the manuscript. What if the story is interesting and the prose is well-written, even without a dead body by the end of the first chapter? That editor could be missing out on a possible best-seller! And what if you start out a mystery the way this editor prefers, and the rest of the mystery doesn't hold up? Then the manuscript would still be rejected. It didn't matter that a dead body cropped up in the first chapter. Look, what works for one mystery, may not work for another. All mysteries aren't the same, neither do they all begin the same way, and they shouldn't be.
The title should be "How to impress an English major."