Parry with the EDGE or the FLAT? - Japanese vs Korean swordsmanship [sword talk/skit]
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- Опубліковано 14 бер 2022
- I tried my hand at a skit to argue the values of blocking or parrying with the edge vs the flat, or in Japanese swordsmanship the spine of the sword. There are differences between the Japanese katana and Korean swords and swordsmanship leading to the differences in technique, however, at the end of the day a block is meant to save your life so practise it however it works best for you.
Swords: 1095 clay tempered katana 71cm blade length
Tamahagane byeolungeom 76cm blade length
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"do you block with edge or flat"
Knights with longswords 👀
Why would you make your katana's edge so brittle in the first place?
:D:D:D you have no idea how big of an argument the "flat of my strong" meme is among HEMA practicioners ... lol
Japanese Swordsman: How are you going to cut down your opponent if your edge is dull
Me: THRUST!!!
But seriously though, combat is ever changing, best to meet what comes as it comes
Excellent topic. I've done a lot of steel on steel tests, and with a differentially hardened Japanese stye sword, I've found my best results parrying with the edge offset at about a 45 degree angle to the flat takes the hit pretty well across the side of the hamon and edge plane, and the twisting action on impact helps absorb the damage, especially if you can avoid direct perpendicular impact. Of course, a sword with more "meat" behind the edge will always do better taking that kind of abuse. With a through-hardened Chinese or Euro sword with a beefy and less-sharpened forte, I can take the incoming blow straight into either flat or the edge of the forte. I'm not so familiar with Korean swords. But as usual, you've hit on the most important point: Better to take a hit on your blade than on you.
Indeed, I can replace a sword but I cannot replace myself
@@JustaBug There are a number of Koryu that do focus on avoiding direct blade to blade contact as an ideal, though some (more often those that use bokken or shinai vs a live blade or iaito) do practice hard right-angle blocks.
Hahaha nice one! Even among dojos theres always that debate. Especially among koryus when some katas have variations of interpretation on wether you are suppose to block with the edge or flat side...one of the best thing my seniors say is ..."learn both ways and wait till someone better point it out which is correct"
Indeed. I also think it's worth learning both ways and testing which one works for you
People who says never do this or that when it clearly works in your favor clearly can't fight and have little knowledge in their own art
True late Edo period Japanese: blocks with the body, to spare the sword from any damage, wherever.
Late imperial Japanese: "this A6M Zero plane is beautiful, the peak of human achievement! I will now crash it."
):!
Worst comes to worse block with the edge and dull it. Then you have a metal club to bludgeon your enemy with.
When looking at antique Korean swords do you see the type of edge damage that would occur when using the edge to parry?
Yes. Also on Japanese swords too, so clearly some Japanese swordsmen used the edge to parry as well
@@JustaBug interesting. I personally try to avoid direct edge parries myself for a number of philosophic reasons & due to the way I move myself & the sword it tends to not happen. But I am open to the idea that some do & did. Interestingly when I was in England & looked at hundreds (possibly thousands) of swords from many periods in museums I saw far less edge trauma that I would expect given what I know happens when sharp blades collide. There could be many reasons why edge trauma isn't seen from only the 'pretty' swords get displayed, repairs, older nicked up blades being discarded/broken...etc.
To be clear I feel, in Europe at least, the further back in History one goes the less one would be likely to edge party & certainly by the 1700s edge parrying was the norm.
But it is VERY interesting to know that you have seen evidence on asian swords, especially on Japanese swords, given how hard this brittle the edges can be.
But as swords are ultimately tools that if used eventually must be retired it's always going to be that different users will use & treat their tools/weapons differently.
I give you my respect & thanks good Sir
Well said! I like the part where you don't want to get hit!
In European swordsmanship, we tend to do it both ways, depending on the situation. Normally, we do it with the edge because it's the strongest part of the sword, and you have the best defensive structure when blocking. However, if you're planning to riposte (counter his cut with another of yours), we purposely parry with the flat because it's the weakest part of the sword, and it receives all the energy from a blow, energy you can use to power your attack. So the answer is "it depends on what you want to achieve" .
Dao has entered the chat....
I keep hoping to find a video that explains/demonstrates the differences between Japanese and Korean sword usage.
The difference between korean vs japanese sword usage is a very difficult question to answer. A lot of stems from massive questions as to what korean sword usage really is. Modern korean sword stuff is all just japanese swordsmanship rebranded, there is almost no historic link with the major styles like kummooyeh or haidong gumdo. Sibpalki is the exception here but there is a heavy kungfu influence there as well and very little martial focus, so its a skewed lens. If we look at korean historic manuals in Muyedobotongji there are few specifics so a lot is left up to interpretation and we do not have any living lineages thanks to the japanese colonial period in korea snuffing them out. Theres also multiple historic styles of korean swordsmanship recorded in Muyedobotongji so there is also no generalised korean sword style. I guess thats not a very satisfying answer, but its really too big of a topic to answer in one comment, if youve got further questions feel free to shoot me an email and Ill be happy to answer as best as I can
@@JustaBug I see. No, I thank you for the information you provided. It actually confirmed what I had already deduced through personal exploration. Can you tell me if the significance of the sword to a Korean practitioner was/is different that it was/is to a Japanese practitioner ("the sword is the soul of a samurai," etc)?
@kevinmkraft with regards to the significance of the sword, I think it's largely overstated for the Japanese side in modern times. It's likely indoctrination in the last century to bolster national pride. But to answer your original question, likely not. The sword was a tool to be used in Korea. There was some significance for certain swords such as the four dragons or four tigers swords which were made at specific times and held great significance, but they were not for combat use. Ones used for combat with significance probably include the royal guard swords called byeolungeom though those were rarely if ever used (but the potential for use was there) and there is recorded the passing down of general li rusongs sword to his unborn son while he was in Korea recorded in muyedobotongji. There's also admiral yi sunshins ginormous swords in his shrine too. So apart from those few examples, largely no particular significance. Hope that helps!
@@JustaBug Indeed it does! You're extremely well-versed in this matter. I am grateful for your information. I suspected as much concerning the samurai sword but it was only that, a suspicion--sort of like assertions made about the Ninja. Thanks again!
Nice👀👍
Although, when you block with the edge and the swords bite into each other , your opponent also can manipulate your sword, so deflection are preferable, and block which minimise sword edge firing in is preferred.
Sometimes this can’t be avoided but training should be the best average so you can then movie either direction.
Unfortunately like most martial arts there is a lot of craziness which doesn’t work in reality.
I’ve never seen people in the army being trained to use their riffle like a club even though the need might arise.
There's another thing, you can manipulate his blade as well. Block, wind to another opening and stab him in the face. Blade contact should be avoid or constant blade crashing leads to binding and winding is very much depends on the system and the preference of the teacher who made that system. If it works, it's not stupid
@@jaketheasianguy3307 corrrect, if it works.
Battle and sparing is the true test
what about just Dodge and avoid any kind of steel vs steel contact?
I try to dodge what I can but at the speed of swordsmanship it's impossible to dodge everything if your opponent is skilled. I'm always for getting out of the way of an attack if possible
Dodging is very difficult sword travel at very fast speeds besides there are feints etc.
Dodging is not easy. You can but its not like dark souls. Swords are very quick in changing directions (depending on the wielder). You can adjust your position, but the timing needs to be right. Too early and your opponent can re-adjust, too late and you'll get hit. Often you also need to counter with something else simultaneously (if you can) instead of standing there. Parrying and diverting the attack however is much easier and will also lower risk of damage to a blade
How long did it take you to receive your sword? I ordered 3 months ago and it still hasn't been sent
i know i'm SUUUUPER late to the game but, if anyone is still around and can answer, I have a korean style sword from Martial Art Sword... where did you(or he) get the belt attachment stuff to strap the sword to the hip? i would LOOOOVE one of those for mine.
That's a tidon. The sheathe needs to be made with it on and there are only a few makers who do this. Mine is from swordmaker moon
@@JustaBug wow thank you for such a quick response! Yea mine doesn't have one, but was thinking of creating something for it to loop on using leather or something?
@@vuboy122288 it will be hard to get it to hold on in the right angle without permanently affixing it to the sheathe. Also the tidon swivel needs to be made as well. Not impossible but keep in mind it may ruin your current sheathe and also make sure the sword doesn't fall out if the angle is tipped too far forwards
claymore go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Well the main difference is that Korean swordmanship was a last ditch option. They brought bows as their main. Otherwise they used polearms.
For the most part yes, but there are two hand sword styles used as main weapons in some variations of the mandarin duck formation used in the imjin war which likely edge parried
flat or sword spine , unless you intentionally want to chip your katana for a specific purpose as some Japanese schools do