Awesome video! Love you guys! This was a lot of information and results from a minimal amount of equipment done in a professional way, very informative and cost-effective! I too was wondering about Subarus with more power. With a Subaru ascent with 260 hp 2.4 L turbo boxer for do any better on gold mine Hill?. With the extra power result In just more slippage with the stock tires? I think the ascent also has a fair amount of ground clearance, but probably less break over angle. I wish Subaru would give you guys more cars, you’re perfect to test them out! Thanks again!
I own a 2012 Outback that I use for my job as a agricultural claims adjuster. I have 99,000 miles on the car today 10/6/18, of those miles an estimated 4000 miles have been off road in sugar sand, mud, canals, tomato fields, nurseries, citrus groves located between I-95 to the East and I-75 to the West, I-4 to the North and I-75 to the south in the swamp of southern Florida. My original vehicle of choice was a 2001 GMC Yukon, very bad on my back off road. I have been places with the Outback the Yukon couldn't begin to attempt to go like sugar sand and the ditches of tomato fields in the Everglades swamp with water over the hood for brief times. When I counted citrus trees or mapped citrus or tomato acres I could go to the end of the row and make a u turn without backing up, no way with a Yukon or other vehicle. The difference in comfort for my back was very noticeable, I could drive the Outback 400-500 miles a day from home down into the Everglades swamp, map acres all day and return with no sign of any back pain, not to mention even off road I would get 25 mpg, the Yukon maybe 5 mpg if not sugar sand. In 99,000 miles I have been through 2 sets of brake pads and 1 set of rotors, the sand and mud eats brakes, 3 sets of tires with 2 of the sets having damage from broken glass and metal pieces in orange groves and tomato fields, not to mention the thorns on certain palms in nurseries. I have had no other issues with the car other than a battery or two, had to go to a red top battery because of the rough terrain breaking the lead acid batteries apart. I love the Outback, waiting for a 2019 the right color for me, will keep the 2012.
Now you just need to buy a FORCE GAUGE to go with that slip rig. sure a ramp setup would be a little better, but using a force gauge is quicker, easier, safer, and cheaper! see my other comment in the main comment section for some tips on how to use it.
I am by no means an automotive expert, but I've been driving for about 40 years and due to winter conditions where I live most of my cars have been jeeps/trucks/suvs/awd cars/etc. The Outback (2018) is the best on-road AWD car I have ever driven. The car does amazing in any real world on-road condition where traction is possible. It is by far the best car I've ever driven in the snow. During snow storms I routinely drive around people stopped with their hazards on and continue on up the hill to my house. I've used x-mode/hill descent to crawl down snowy and slippery hills far better than any of my previous 4WD vehicles, even the ones that had a transfer case and 4-LOW. It also does just fine on light off-roading such as loose dirt, gravel, and sand. However, it is not an off road car. I know Subaru's marketing suggests that it is - and perhaps they should stop doing so - but I don't think any reasonable person would expect a family oriented crossover wagon to handle the situation shown at 0:27. Still it is the best practical on-road AWD vehicle I have ever driven.
I've been driving in north eastern Canada for 15 years and most people I see in the ditch are 4x4 trucks and awd suv/cars during snowstorms. Awd and 4x4 only help's in acceleration and maybe stability if your a bad driver. It does not have any benefit in steering and braking. Winter tires play the largest role. People think I'm a mad man for driving a rwd lsd equipped car in winter but with good winter tires and some driving experience and knowledge it's very stable(and fun!).
@@Korrupted8787 Does not benefit in steering? Well let me tell you something... First of all you havent driven an awd car. Second it helps steering even on dry surface BUT thats not the main improvement. Awd improves *traction*and *stability*. And so you cant feel the speed and the turns - the car is insanely stable (as far as subie goes, havent been in other awd cars). I have been in a FWd and a RWD car and the difference is insane... I am rolling in the car every single little turn it is so annoying!
My family owns a 2016 outback it kicks ass in the ice and snow. But a.w.d. cars are just like any car in that good tires are important part of winter driving.
I'm going to have to defer to the guy from Northern Canada :) He probably knows what he's talking about when it comes to snowy weather more so than me..! Also pretty much every car I've ever bought has been better than the last one - so maybe it's just technology in general. However, I think my point was that even though you probably shouldn't take your Subaru off-roading and try to drive up "insanity hill", if you're looking for an on-road snow car then it's very, very good.
Suggestions: 1. Chop up a few old bicycle tires and rivet them to the bottom of the roller tray rails to stop them from getting shot backward every time a vehicle steps off one. 2. Put all four wheels on the skates and demonstrate that there is insufficient friction in the rollers to allow a vehicle to escape their slipperiness. 3. Add "down" ramps to the other sides of the trays. If the vehicle gets that far, it doesn't need to demo falling off them. 4. Same testing but in reverse gear 5. Same testing but on varying hill grades (Newton-Raphson selection algorithm) to evaluate what grade is "too steep" for a vehicle to escape (both forward and backward) with only one wheel having traction. And then with two wheels having traction. 6. Less talking, more testing. All of the above could be combined using a text banner under each test condition and show the video in 2x speed because who wants to watch a Subaru drive off rollers 200 times? (i.e. You need some fail in there or it gets boring). 7. Colored wheel graphics in a corner that identify which wheel(s) have traction during each test (and don't).
Excellent evaluation idea that should be added to EVERY vehicle review that TFL performs from now on, regardless of drive system. Basically, this eval would be pertinent for all drivers outside of areas like San Diego with perfect weather year round. Curious is these skates would work on the bigger trucks. They seem small and light-duty and I wonder if pure momentum from the vehicle rocking could carry it over the skates instead of traction. In addition, this is an excellent review of the video. I had similar questions. 1) I was wondering about four skates as well. As one aspect of this test, establish a baseline by demonstrating which wheels are moving in a four-wheel low-friction event. I also would consider securing the vehicle front and back with tie-down chains to fully realize which wheels are moving when under a full loss of traction simulation. Easier than moving 2 or 3 around. 2) As a basic safety thought, add some little friction to the skate base-plates to reduce the skates from being kicked so far. Also, down-ramps seem like they would help but probably not critical. 3) I also like the idea of reverse and different grades of incline such as a simple loading dock ramp, as long as the intended direction is always up the ramp (silly but necessary). 4) For me, less dialogue and more data, such as the graphics that you suggested, is always welcome but this is a video review so...... Overall, it's good to see TFL looking to expand it's evals with data and demonstrable representations of a normally subjective opinion. I look forward to future reviews like this. BTW, I agree that I would love to see the three different Grand Cherokee systems stacked against each other to see how much of the marketing hype is justified. I have a 2016 and love it but I am curious what I am missing with the eLSD in the rear.
Down ramps are a safety item so as to not impart horizontal energy to the roller assemblies to prevent the rollers from sliding off, and hit someone or something.
you want some fun, do a diagonal roller test on a older 4x4 with open diffs at both ends and no TCS, it will sit there and spin a wheel at both ends and go nowhere.
next time, try 3 wheels on rollers, but on the 4th wheel, put a ramp to sort of simulate a heavier load, or a road uphill. ramp could be the same as the one you use to get onto the rollers.
@mik995px Really? How many times does a Subaru have to prove that it's better than anything else out there when it comes to all wheel drive? Hey I have an idea, why don't we put three wheels on the rollers, and the fourth wheel I'll put a chain through it and attach it to a reinforced concrete wall, and see if the car could pull the wall down! Give me a break! The Subaru has the best all wheel drive in the industry hands down..!
I agree with another comment. Put a ramp under the wheel (or wheels) that are not on rollers. Simulates more load, like going up a hill or deep snow. Also please do this test with the competition.
+FunkiHunter Disagreed. Audi Quattro with Torsen is the best AWD system in the world. It dominated rallying until the system got banned in 1986 because it is just too good. Subaru used to be good, but its new cars with prone to failure CVT with its over-advertised symmetrical awd system are only good at saving gas.
+Joao Guerreiro I don't think it would do as good but not a big difference because all VW except Touareg have the fwd biased awd, same goes for Audi A3, Focus RS. Video: ua-cam.com/video/S1d9wMLo-Tg/v-deo.html
No, this guy doesn’t really understand AWD systems very well. It’s obvious at the end of the video when he states that the Gold Mine hill pushed this car’s torque and climbing ability. Install the right tires and this car will easily conquer that precarious spot! And if it can’t, well neither will the raptor or a Jeep. Tires are everything! This Subie’s AWD was not at its limit at that spot, the tires were! How do I know? All wheels were spinning! Now, if one of the wheels wasn’t spinning and had traction, than yes, the car’s AWD system it to blame! This guy needs to educate himself a bit better before making such claims!
Banana Republic Don't lie ;) Quattro dominated rallying just when competitors were using RWD cars and even that is not actually the truth cause in 1983 they even lost whole championship with RWD Lancia. When other competitors started to use 4x4, they smashed Audi. And there was no any torsen in Audi until 1987, although this diff was invented 100 years ago...
A lot of today's AWD systems will pass these tests because the car has very little resistance on the wheel with traction. Offroading in the real world usually puts more resistance on the wheels with traction. Besides the tests you did, you should also try blocking the wheels with traction with a brick or a block of wood to see in the car can send enough power to the wheels with traction to overcome the obstacle.
That is not always the case. There are plenty of these vids out there already. Some cars struggle because the brake intervention is not strong enough and others because engine power is cut so much not enough power can be transferred to the wheels with power. The biggest struggle seems to be with the one wheel with grip on the axle that is not the main drive axle.
But is that the application these vehicles were meant for or are they just for extra grip in poor weather? In actual off roading I would prefer a Jeep or similar vehicle.
Not all...you can see 4Motion for example (or any VAG system) won't pass when is only one rear wheel with traction, and is just because the system can't send enough power to that only back wheel. Different story is when one front wheel has traction, then behaves normal.
Try any Rav4 or Highlander and will struggle really bad in a diagonal situation, and it won't pass when if only one wheel (no matter which axle) has traction, just because breaking system is not enough to distribute power side to side.
You could see how some a/t tires may improve the performance for the Subaru for going up gold mine hill. Definitely shine a light on whether the greatest limitation was the CVT for the vehicle or better tires would help. No one in their right mind should be driving up and down paths like that using normal touring tires after all.
It's not the tires it's the ABS dependent "AWD" after about 40 sec of use ABS turns off to cool pump and you're back to open diffs. Hence climbed first stage good, then utter failure on second stage, ABS cut off.
Necron Overlord yeah I’d love to see a comparison between a couple of AWD and 4x4. I have a 2018 outback I’ve seen what it can do but I’d love to see some comparisons between a couple of them. I also noticed the wheel locks when the power is transferred to the most traction wheel or does the wheel go on neutral? I’d love to see at least some power on the wheel that’s not getting traction for some better off-roading capability.
Don't limit it to 4x4s. Add in the 2WD SUVs and cross-overs to see how they stack up. This testing could prompt manufacturers to base some of their 2WD traction control algorithm on wheel slip from the undriven wheels similarly to the way VW cheated their emissions testing.
I think you should construct a ramp at let's say 20 or 30 degree angle and put the rollers on that, and just have a simple locking mechanism which would allow you to lock individual rollers, this way you can test what would happen in real life scenario. Also If you're feeling like doing extra work, you could make adapters to the shafts which hold the rollers, so you can connect them to some sort of a brake system (maybe connect all rollers under one wheel to one brake rotor or a drum from a junkyard) that way you can give the car 2 wheels with no traction and 2 with limited traction for example.
I think this has probably been mentioned a few times but I would really like to see generational differences. Take something like a 1st generation Outlander AWD model with the basic full time no option AWD system (mine doesn't even have TC/ABS for example) and compare it to a newer model with the newer "S-AWC" AWD systems. Could be interesting doing that with old vs new foresters and similar comparisions as well.
ok, so here is what you can do with your new slip rig. you only need to one more fairly inexpensive thing: A force gauge! Preferably one capable of reading 2,000bls or more. Then, just chain the vehicle to something that won't move with the force gauge inline. Now you can easily measure the amount of force a vehicle is able to apply to the road with various wheels slipping. This setup will also allow you to very quickly and accurately test various terrain modes, since you won't need to reset the rig each time. For comparison purposes the readings should be converted to a percent of a vehicle's weight. so, if a 4000lb vehicle can apply 2001lbs of force with just 2 wheels, then the car would theoretically be able to climb a 45 degree slope with those 2 wheels slipping.
Subaru's are wonderful to drive. If you haven't driven one you can't say. I owned a 2016 legacy 3.6L and loved it, got a 2020 gmc sierra 5.3L and am currently waiting for a 2022 outback xt on order. As soon as a month went by i missed my old Subaru. In my opinion Subaru's are awesome.
@@Dahawk427 people that buy these cars don’t need the capability of a truck or whatever u think is more capable than a Subaru. Subaru makes the most capable cars on the market. All other cars that are comparable are out classes by the capability of the Subaru equivalent. If Subaru made something comparable to a Tacoma or a 4Runner then it would likely out class that as well with extra features if not better performance. And if u think any American brand vehicle compares to anything I’ve talked about then that is laughable
Same here...before was Hondas and a Suzuki, and currently a Legacy sedan, and planning to upgrade to an outback SUV. Nothing beats a full-time AWD after driven one.
What most commenters are missing is the fact that the "talking" and "explaining" are minimal. People need to "SEE" what is or isn't happening and this ONE video is the only one that does this. The expert talking and explaining ad nauseum just doesn't cut it. Watching what the car actually does is all that is needed. "A picture says a thousand words". A video ....same. .
Should make a whole new channel with just these tests. As you receive vehicles for any reviews or tests they should be tested and scored like the tow tests. 4x4 trucks, 4x4 SUV’s, AWD cars and SUV’s are the most popular market and usually the reason why they are purchased is for the AWD needs.
This was a very very informative test. It showed that the problem lies more with the cvt and less with the AWD system. It would be awesome to see this test with other vehicles as well and see what other systems like Quattro or xdrive do. Or also it would be really nice to check a vehicle with a terrain response like system, like a landrover or a modern Jeep, and what slippage each mode allows and if there there is any noticeable difference between for example snow mode and sand mode. Keep these vids coming please!!!
I think for the Gold Mine test you need to change the tyres to compensate for the incline - we compensate for slippery conditions with winter tyres....
Yea but this is TFL, they don't do good tests. When they took a 175hp outback for such steep hill, it already lacks the engine power to push its own weight over. They didn't bother buying the actual 3.6R version which gives all the power it has.
I drive a 2005 Mitsubishi Montero Limited and would like to see how its traction control system works on those. Comparing old and new tech can give us a proper perspective of how things have changed, and if old-school is better or worse than new-school.😉
I would say you did very well with this test. If you haven't already try putting those rubber entry/ramp blocks on both side of the rollers to help try and keep the rollers from jumping back. And to just make for a smoother transition. One thing we noticed with the test on gold mine was that the wheels that were getting traction would not spin and were getting a limited amount of power. What would happen if you hooked the rear of the car up to a stationary heavy object like a post or truck. What does that 4th wheel do?- (3 roller test) Does it spin, or spin a little then stop spinning because of some sort of traction system related restriction. One other thought. When driving the car forwards on the rollers. What if the roller in front of the wheel was larger than what is currently there. That way the car had a more restriction towards moving forward to get off the rollers. Thus requiring more out of the wheel that has traction. This could also be accomplished by removing another roller or 2, setting the wheels down farther. In that case you would have to build something to put the rollers on to the wheel add enough clearance. Great job! This channel is always on the list of shows to watch.
Try it on a ramp, say, of a multi story parking lot. There is a European video, about 5-6 years old, that does the same test, and the results are way different on flat vs. incline.
This! TFL - search UA-cam for that video and try to get/build an inclined roller plane. Then test various vehicles on it. Really showed the strengths and weaknesses of different AWD systems. All your test showed was with one tire on perfect traction, the car could do what a 15 year old kid could - give it a little push on flat ground.
One of the main reasons why I love to watch your vids, everyday, is because I get to see the beautiful scenery of Colorado and the other states and countries. This test is great but I hope you spread them out.
Don't drink the Koolaid. These guys hate Subaru because they destroyed one of Subaru's loaners, so they lost the privilege of getting any more cars from them. Normal people buy these cars knowing what they can do. These guys use them in conditions most people don't because they so want to go out of their way disproving Subaru. I bought my Subaru Forester over a Jeep because I think it's a better vehicle for what I need it for. Pricewise, reliabilitywise, and safetywise. Don't be fooled.
So what, they scratched up a loaner and don’t get Subaru’s anymore. But they still have mostly positive things to say about Subaru’s. That for me shows that they aren’t biased at all or are trying to hate on Subaru.
Suggestions: 1. Open a new channel title just for these tests. "TFL slip rollers test" 2. Use ramps for the exit from the rollers, the same you have for entering on the rollers. Those things won't jump like that from under the tyres. There might be situations when you can damage the car (or paint) if those jump to much. 3. Get yourself a ramp. 20 degrees. Or even adjustable angle. Do the tests on flat and on various angles. 4. Test all cars and trucks on the rollers. 5. Find a way to lock the rollers. 6. The 1 and 2 roller test, on front wheel, than on rear wheel. 3 roller on front and than rear wheel position. 7. Test 4 wheels on rollers. It will show how the system is balanced, how aggressive is the ESP and other electronic contolls, if engine or transmission cuts power, etc. This will be a very interesting, entertaining, educational channel. You have to do it.
In addition to the simple flat surface, you could probably place those rollers on an incline to test the effect of various degrees on the AWD system. Roller tests like these are where Subaru is said to outperform other the basic AWDs in such vehicles as Nissan Rogue, Mazda CX3, Honda CRV or HRV, Toyota RAV4, Jeep Compass. Maybe you can verify to see if any of those actually fail? The new 2019 Subaru Forester has a new X-Mode that has 3 different settings (normal, snow/dirt, deep snow/mud). Hopefully you'll be able to test?
I've had Jeep's, full size trucks and other AWD vehicles. My 2018 Crosstrek is easily the best vehicle in rain and winter weather. No matter the weather I have to be at work, this car is perfect
6:51 driver side front locks up and transfers it right over to passenger, that's sick. it's cool to see everything working together on 3 rollers in all of the tests too. the biggest problem i had offroading a Subaru was power, i couldn't move a tire on a little ledge but it was very high altitude. also if i'm not mistaken part of the "symmetrical" AWD is that the driveshafts are the same length and all 4 axles are too.
Great project! Some Thoughts: 1) The car is putting on the order of 1000 lbs per wheel on the rollers. Those commercial conveyor rollers are typically rated for 50-200 lbs, the high capacity ones maybe 600 lbs. I suggest trying to find some rollers with sufficient capacity to eliminate the possibility that crushed roller bearings don't influence the test. 2) When 2 or more wheels are lifted 3 or 4 inches higher, that reduces the weight on the tires on the ground. You can see this at one point in the video when even the front tire on the ground slips a bit. This is the polar opposite of the Gold Mine Hill test, where all the weight of the car is on the grounded wheels. Maybe as a minimum put the grounded tires on static platforms of the same height. 3) Tire pressure will have a great influence on the results since the tires are point loaded and lower pressure will smoosh the tires around the roller. Just make sure to use the same pressure on all tests. Keep up the good work! Love the channel
Technically a brake locking diff is a locking differential. It just locks at the end of the axle instead of the diff carrier. There are lots of sacrifices with real lockers that wouldn't be acceptable in a Subaru.
I'm glad to see you guys doing these tests! I'd love to see all the vehicles listed below go through this! I've watched video in the past where people test AWD systems in conditions such as snow, mud, etc. against other cars but those videos never show tire make, that drives me nuts just to show and try and prove that one car is better than another. This AWD proves a lot more and shows the truth. I own a 2015 Subaru WRX all stock except a Cobb Access port so far. I'm a native of Washington state and our car is a true Subaru, meaning we take it everywhere, even off road. The AWD system works wonderfully and would love to see that done on the rollers also! Keep up the good work guys, I really enjoy all of your videos!
It was a good test, and props for getting the rollers, and making this. It's a great test that you can do on all AWD vehicles. Ways to test better you ask? Be more methodical. Test every configuration and you'll expose flaws / weaknesses in any AWD system. Example: Test - Center diff - front wheels on rollers = test and passed Test - Center diff - rear wheels on rollers = Test - Left to right - 2 wheels on rollers, Driver side with traction = Test - Left to right - 2 wheels on rollers, Passenger side with traction = Test - Front driver and rear passengers on rollers = Test - Front passenger and rear driver on rollers = test and passed Test - 1 wheel traction, passenger front = Test - 1 wheel traction, driver front = Test - 1 wheel traction, passenger back = test and passed Test - 1 wheel traction, driver back =
Some of the most advanced systems around at an affordable price point. Active diff's decimate all if tuned correctly. Acura's system is fantastic. MDX ua-cam.com/video/KqzTsuPiTVA/v-deo.html TL ua-cam.com/video/KFx1KaRSfv8/v-deo.html
Hey guys, so I’m not someone who usually comments on UA-cam videos, no matter how much I enjoy them. But I watch your vids pretty much every day!! You guys do such cool stuff that I don’t see any one else doing, makes me happy after a long stressful day to watch y’alls videos 😁
it's a cvt issue, they can't handle the torq uphill, i'm from chile and i have the same outback but the diesel one, (2.0 turbo diesel flat 4, almost the same torq than the 2.0 turbo engine in the forester xt, etc etc), it has more torq than the gas engine but i have the same problem, i tested with 4 friends in a hill with grass and mud in my house and the only way to make it was taking a bit of speed. i think 'im going to make a video of that.
The problem is using X-Mode and VDC control. One thing these fancy traction control systems do is cut power to wheels that spin to make the off-road experience better for those who don't have that expertise. Shocker, when they replicate the test with all of that stuff turned off using just Subaru's base AWD system it did just fine on the hill. It's not a CVT issue at all. It's an ignorance issue. ua-cam.com/video/3gIW57HxgNk/v-deo.html
Can you guys throw a pair of All Terrains on the Outtie and head back out to Gold Mine Hill! Also, in regard to the roller test, place both rollers on one side of the vehicle. I think that’s the only test you guys missed. Great, vid! 👍🏽
Subaru is one of the best companies that makes AWD or 4WD vehicles. I want this test done with Honda's SH-AWD and Audi's Quattro. The only sad thing is most Subaru's are underpowered. I wish their Legacys and Outbacks had more power. I dont want to buy a WRX STI just to have a little fun.
I have a Lexus GS, I believe it is better than Subaru or anyone else: ua-cam.com/video/tNDV3U2H-Zg/v-deo.html 30/70 f/r then 50/50 in snow mode or when it slips. A used one is a much better deal than a new subaru. Subaru feels like a Milkwagon next to these cars.
@@scot.manning jeeps and subarus are completely different cars. One is for offroading and the other is a car for snow and getting to your dirt campsite. Also I hear this a lot saying jeeps are unreliable. And from first and second hand experience they are pretty hard to break and insanely good 4x4s.
We get 5-6 feet of snow every winter and put both our Subie’s into Xmode to get up our private road and into our garage during the winter months. We LOVE our Subie’s and will own them for life.
Tommy, a really great and very fair test. This same test would be really interesting on all of the “all wheel drive vehicles” vehicles that are now on sale. I have one very small criticism, when you’re holding the camera you’re using to photograph yourself hold it at just below eye level, to me it always looks like you’re looking up at the camera. Other than that, absolutely top shelf.
I've owned a 2012 Subaru Legacy 36R since new and driven it through foot deep unbroken snow without a hitch. A couple of years ago it got us safely through and around stalled rush hour traffic during one of the worst ice storms on record in the St. Louis area and allowed us to rescue a close friend who was released from the hospital during the ice storm with no means to get home. With heated seats, mirrors and wipers and Subaru' s symetdical AWD it's the best all weather vehicle that I have ever owned.
another really important thing to consider is Subaru awd is always on, its ALWAYS sending power to all four! this makes a huge difference in snow, light sand, light mud, and uneven surfaces. we just bought a 2018 subaru xv and it just snowed 35cm in calgary last week. i noticed right away the hilarious difference between my honda awd and this subaru, we also tried it with my friends Nissan awd. the biggest problem with all other awd systems is they dont send power to the rear untill slip is detected, so i ask, whats the point of sending power to the rear if your already slideing sideways...... subaru FTW!
Toyota-Lexus has a better AWD system: ua-cam.com/video/tNDV3U2H-Zg/v-deo.html . 30/70 and 50/50 in snow mode. It is RWD based and derived from the Toyota Trucks. They don't have to advertise it either.
In my experience, AWD in the snow helps mostly to get moving from a stop. If you're sliding sideways, that means none of your wheels have traction. Even Subaru's AWD system is useless if 0 wheels have traction. What's needed is proper winter tires.
i use nokian studded winter tires on all my vehicles. and yes you are correct, i would take FWD/RWD with winter tires any day of the week then AWD/4WD with all seasons. subaru sysmetrical AWD + studded winter tires+ light weight= totally un-stoppable in the snow/ice. i drive circles around jeeps/trucks haha.
Agreed about the tires. When I got the AWD Lexus it had cheap china tires(or they were hard sport tires). I couldn't even move in the snow, but they are ok in dry/wet. I put Michelin snows and it made a total world of difference. I think studded is overkill for AWD, that would be a good choice for RWD. Stopping distance is another story though. You need everything you can get. My neighbor bought a new imprezza sport and it could barely even get up the very slightly inclined driveway, It came with summer tires!
@@alb12345672 Subaru AWD system is 60-40 and goes 50/50 when it detects slippage (CVT) and 50/50 for the manual. Toyota doesn't advertise their AWD because everyone knows Toyota isn't an AWD manufacturer. So they there is no point in advertising that when you have a competitor that has been doing AWD since the beginning. Audi has a way better AWD system than Toyota and is been tested to be on par with the Subaru. Subaru AWD is always on vs all other brands that only turns on when slip happens. Like Mazda skyactive system, what is the point of turning on AWD after that fact one of your wheel lost traction? Its already too late.
The video was great You asked for constructive comments so........ I wish there was a little less explaining. I wish it was roller explanation in the beginning, car claims, test. Some of the explanations were kind of drawn out and I started to drift. It seems you wanted to ,make sure the viewers understood what you were doing, I got it. So just shorter and more to the point with what’s going on please
Great video! This proves that the AWD system in the Subie works very well. This also proves the weak link is the powertrain (pointing a finger at the CVT) where engine torque is not enough to move the car uphill if alternate corners have lost traction. I would like to think this is computer programming that has been put in place to protect the Subie from damaging itself, but a part of me sees this as a car geared for the highway and does not have the torque multiplication factor that you would see in a 2 speed transfer case.
First of all, you should said it right at the beginning of the video, that you we're doing it for the first time... Then saying twice that a test was done with the little difficulties wouldn't sound so incompetent... It was almost a perfect reaction of an AWD system (of course without mechanical locking diffs). But you'll see later while testing other cars the same way. Or you can check many YT videos now. For example: ua-cam.com/users/duszaniespokojnavideos
For those unfamiliar with the difference between 4 wheel drive and all wheel drive : stock 4x4 rigs come with open diffs, there for get one wheel in the front off the ground and one on the back and your stuck. The awd rig has an advantage by being able to transfer the power from the spinning wheel to one with traction. You could get similar performance from a 4x4 rig by installing locking diffs front and rear.
I don't think it's the CVT so much as the torque converter that is used to get started being a lot smaller than when the whole transmission was based off a torque converter. The current CVTs seem to have about the same 9 - 10 km/h per 1000 RPM overall speed at the slowest ratio as both the manuals and autos have had for a long time. And if you actually do have them fully engaged they seem to be happy to take all the torque the engine will give. It's just at the standing start zero speed up a steep hill (or whatever) they they seem to be lacking compared to a conventional automatic. And that, to me, points to the wimpy little torque converter.
Bruce Hoult that is likely correct, I'm not a Subaru expert, or even know a lot about them, but I know cvt transmissions aren't good for anything but fuel vefficiency.
That's the opposite of what I said. The CVT doesn't seem to be the problem because it will take all the power you can throw at it once you've started moving and the torque converter locks up.
Yes it did, but there's nothing stopping next year's CVT coming with a better torque converter. It's a problem with the detailed implementation, not with the concept.
I have a 2018 Forester XT that I've taken on some steep rutted hills. There were two instances where I was climbing a very rutted out incline in the Forester with ruts at the top. The front drivers wheel came off the ground at the top of the hill. The Forester was able to teeter itself on the opposing front and rear wheels to to lift the rear passenger wheel off the ground and return traction to both front wheels to continue the climb. I had to do this on two different occasions on my trip. This was with x-mode enabled, and I wasn't aware of disabling VDC so it was apparently on at the time. I also have an '88 Wrangler with many offroad mods that I take on trips that could do damage to the vehicle, but for camping, long or comfortable trips, the Forester has pushed my Wrangler to the side lines.
2015 crosstrek with 4 people and our luggage in the back headed from akron ohio to florida. New goodyear assurance tires and a winter warning that was going to cause a 2 hour delay. I had this car doing 60-70mph through 3-5 inches of fresh snow on a highway at 3 am passing plows and lifted pickups over the mound of snow that seperated the plowed lanes from the snowed out ones. At no point did i lose any control. I was rally racing to the max but at no point was i uncomfortable that the car was going to lose any bit of traction. That car is an absolute beast. Every bit of that 148hp was being put to work and the traction and handling were nothing short of awesome.
Fridayjoefriday Same question. Really looking forward to the promised comparison of the Outback to the old Cherokee for real world mpg. Should be a fun look at advancements in technology of today’s vehicles vs years gone by.
Apply common sense. I have a 2018 forester cat and I drive through sandy terrain with no issues. I’ve driven on sandy hills with big pot holes climbing with little issue( all season tires). I’ve even driven on twist ditches off-road and the traction system worked wonders with the forester. One thing I’ve learned with Subaru and especially Jeep is turn the throttle management off so the system can focus on traction.
It’s actually called symmetrical because all 4 axles are exactly the same length. Most cars have a shorter and longer axle on opposing sides of the car causing torque steer. Subaru has little to no torque steer due to the same length axle going to each wheel.
I don't agree with your answer. Torsion applied at one end of a bar is the same at any point along it's length. Thus, torque would be the same at the other end regardless of the length.
Paul Montero Axles flex, they behave a little like springs. If you were to turn the axles slowly or if they would not flex then yes you are right. But when accelerating hard on real axles that really do flex you will get torque steer if axles weren't the same length. The shorter axle will reach max torque on the wheel side before the longer axle.
Great job, guys. You've really stepped up your work. Third review for a Outback in the past few month. Waiting a similar review with a Forester(roller test + gold mine hill). Ahh...you've missed testing one front wheel on ground and other 3 on rollers
clearly does not transfer into the real world...we know the VW is very good in bad weather and very safe on crowned roads where all wheel drives tend to slid off the side...the test needs to be modified; do the same thing but attach the car to a pole and use a pull scale to determine just how hard one wheel can pull that way we can build a chart of all vehicles tested and thus determining a baseline performance, ie if a car pulls less than fifty pounds it may not be enough to work on anything but pavement
stickloaf great suggestion and very close to what I was thinking! The only improvement I would make to this is, rather than a pole, use something that would move before the pull scale breaks in the event a vehicle is able to transfer 100% traction to the non-slipping wheel. Maybe a large object that can move before the scale breaks.
Thank you Tommy. I've owned a Subaru - good AWD system, it was on the fly AWD button in the middle of the stick shift, then I owned an Audi 4000 Quattro, Great AWD system.
Who buys a Subaru to go off-road? I have an Outback but never once has going off-road up a dirt hill entered my mind. It’s a family car that’s safe and can handle rain/snow. Get a real SUV for going off-road.
Subaru says it can offroad, when it honestly doesn't do very well on steep hills. It's their marketing that's false and misleading. If their marketing showed the car doing well in rain/snow, then there's no problem.
@npouch they used to be able to go off-road though. Especially when they used to have an automatic transmission. My 2011 3.6r outback with an automatic transmission has absolutely no problem with that type of off-road they did. The problem now is after they switched to cvts they haven't changed their marketing.
Jeremy Holt actually I’ve read it’s the second or third most used brand off road, with something like 1 in 5 owners using it that way at least sometimes.
I have an 03 Outback 5 speed with a 2 inch lift, it out off roads my friends Pathfinder and my neighbors Jeep Cherokee....and as to Jeremy Holt....A LOT of people buy Subarus to go offroading....not rock crawling....off roading. Clearly you don't live in the North East.
Really great idea guys! I love taking the rocks, dirt, and terrain surface out of the equation for testing the efficiency of the AWD systems in these crossovers. Now people can't complain about the driver, the tires, and so on. I think this should become a standard test for all new crossovers and 4x4 vehicles. Good work
Controlled vs Real World .... while it would be interesting to watch systems in action spinning, locking, unlocking & spinning with all four tires on rollers. I’d prefer real world tests. Almost anything looks good on paper, in practice is where you learn. Real world is trying to make U-turn by pulling into a muddy gravel entrance to a field & backing up.... its a parking-lot in a hilly wet grass field for festival, snowbanks, mud ruts etc. it may be a foot of slip & grip or it might be 100yrds of slip & grip.
There are lots and lots of real world test on these things. it isn't even a new model or new technology. For on road applications, even in pitiful icy conditions the system works great. Just ask any Subaru owner from a northern state, or any of the many long term tests online. The underlying problem is the torque management for the CVT, and if you go all "off road" in a vehicle designed for the street the computers are programmed to keep the CVT alive. If I owned one I'd rather have a long lived CVT, than a car that can slowly destroy itself internally in conditions where it is in over it's head anyway. Of course I'd also rather not have a CVT ... but that is another story altogether.
I owned an outback, performed excellently getting me out of snow, Ice, and mud. uphill, tight corners, gravel, it doesn't matter, Subaru's awd conquers it. the mistake they made was using shitty stock tires, if you want to offroad in anything, you should have offroad tires.
Elmir Mujezinovic Nowadays haldex systems can be much better than older quattro. Just like in this Subaru above, which has awd system similar to haldex. JAnx01 Rather not secretly, they are switching to Quattro Ultra.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers Marketing buzzword. And better in what way? Haldex may be better on rollers, but it usually struggles compared to torsen in real usage like getting uphill on a slippery surface. It's certainly not better for long-term intensive use either. Gears Vs clutches+brakes. The latter wears out much faster.
JAnx01 Better in terms of performance (not reliability, long-term use etc.). With haldex systems (or other clutches i.e. like in this Outback) system can do whatever it wants with the torque (all up to software). Older mechanical systems do not have such skill.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers It's not. Haldex can only send up to 50% to the rear and only when a problem is detected at the front. Torsen Equipped Audi's split the power with a 40:60 bias front/rear and can send up to 84% to the rear when needed. Additionally, Audi offers an optional torque-vectoring differential for its torsen-equipped models that can transfer all available torque at the rear axle to each wheel in order to reduce understeer. Drive a S3/RS3 and S4/RS4. There is no comparison. The S4 can do on-power 4-wheel drifts whereas the Haldex-equipped models have terminal understeer at the limit.
You may want to attach a piece of rubber to the roller frame (between the roller assembly and the ground) to keep them from abruptly moving from below the vehicle. Thanks for the video.
Use the Jeep Cherokee and show a 4 wheel drive car or truck put into 4 wheel drive is really a 2 wheel drive, and to prove it put on the Jeep Sport Wrangler with its lift kit and good tires is also only a 2 wheel drive without any lockers. This might surprise some viewers.
even if you put the vehicle into 4 wheel drive, a vehicle with an open differential will still spin only one tire. One front tire and one rear tire will spin in 4 wheel drive.
He's right, 4WD systems have effectively two driven wheels unless they have locking diffs and/or traction control that will brake the spinning wheel. Look at the recent Cherokee vs Cherokee video. The old XJ Cherokee was spinning one front and one rear and had a tougher time than the new Cherokee when going through the ruts.
I really like that slip system! It seems like it would really pit vehicles with varying degrees of approach and departure angles and different ground clearances fairly against each other in the way that they deal with those types of situations according to their individual takes on traction control systems. However, actually taking them out into the wild to see what their really made of is not only y'alls signature, but it really helps to demonstrate the overall aptitude of the vehicles true nature and dynamics for those trying to determine what vehicles to choose from which may be very close to each other on paper but one could clearly be the overall winner and have the clenching selling point for interested buyers. Again, I like the slip system, but maybe you should run all of your test vehicles using both methods to not only help customers, but to help automakers that watch your channel for feedback to really push the boundaries on what's possible with their vehicles and make decisions of their own whether to continue tweaking with their current technologies or bite the bullet and step away from a clearly dead end road. There's always a better way and they will do what we ask of them in the end because, pardon my French here but, that's what puts asses in seats and that's what they're all about. Keep up the great work guys!
It's awesome that you guys are doing this test, but if I may suggest - try this test on a slight incline, this will make it more difficult for cars to start moving with some wheels freely spinning.
Excellent evaluation idea that should be added to EVERY vehicle review that TFL performs from now on, regardless of drive system. Basically, this eval would be pertinent for all drivers outside of areas like San Diego with perfect weather year round. Curious is these skates would work on the bigger trucks. They seem small and light-duty and I wonder if pure momentum from the vehicle rocking could carry it over the skates instead of traction. In addition, this is an excellent review of the video. I had similar questions. 1) I was wondering about four skates as well. As one aspect of this test, establish a baseline by demonstrating which wheels are moving in a four-wheel low-friction event. I also would consider securing the vehicle front and back with tie-down chains to fully realize which wheels are moving when under a full loss of traction simulation. Easier than moving 2 or 3 around. 2) As a basic safety thought, add some little friction to the skate base-plates to reduce the skates from being kicked so far. Also, down-ramps seem like they would help but probably not critical. 3) I also like the idea of reverse and different grades of incline such as a simple loading dock ramp, as long as the intended direction is always up the ramp (silly but necessary). 4) For me, less dialogue and more data, such as the graphics that you suggested, is always welcome but this is a video review so...... Overall, it's good to see TFL looking to expand it's evals with data and demonstrable representations of a normally subjective opinion. I look forward to future reviews like this. BTW, I agree that I would love to see the three different Grand Cherokee systems stacked against each other to see how much of the marketing hype is justified. I have a 2016 and love it but I am curious what I am missing with the eLSD in the rear.
Subaru doesn't use a regular CVT. It is device designed for Audis. Some german shop is building the chain. It is not a belt driven like you would see in a Nissan or Toyota. It is a chain designed for w8 engine's torque.
total nonsense. The Subaru lineartronic is a Subaru development and has nothing to do with the crappy Audi multitronic. The Subaru CVT is tough and reliable. The audi's multitronic has a very bad reputation, because it breaks down extremely often.
Subaru does assemble the CVt inhouse but the parts for it are third parties. And I QUOTE: LuK GmbH & Co. KG, the Schaeffler Group’s specialist for systems and components for vehicle drive trains, has been a development partner to SUBARU for ten years. This collaboration produced a highly efficient all-wheel drive CVT that was presented for the first time at the 2009 New York International Autoshow under the name “LineartronicTM”. Shaeffler group is a major Audi parts supplier. The chain that is inside the Subaru CVT was designed for w8 Vw products. Subaru doesn't design these things. They are in manufacturing and assembly business. Jatco belts that Nissan uses couldn't fit in a device that Subaru due to the way the engine sits.
the fact the buy parts at third party specialist doesn't mean the subaru gear box has anything to do with the multitronic from Audi. Believe me, the Subaru gearbox is way more robust and is a subaru design
Great vids all the time. Can you do a video using a Subaru with manual transmission? I'd love to see how it does compared to cvt transmission on dirt roads. 50/50 distribution of power sounds better than what the cvt puts out.
1- Many view the same car, but from their own point of view! so in fact, they create new content and is different from going through the same mechanical process which will always produce the same results! 2- I get that you mentioned 'probably'; but based on what data you claim "many TFL viewers haven't seen this test?" I can claim that probably many viewers have seen these tests! 3- Even if you are correct, they [should/] want to do something new. That's why there are 'one person channels' that have more subscribers than TFL!
The only videos I have seen using similar equipment have been made by subaru - allegedly for internal training. This makes them pretty unreliable as proof of anything. This is the first independent vid i've seen of this test - i'd like to see different manufacturers' cars tested - and of course on an incline as has been pointed out.
@@Digidi4 Rofl expected typical response from internet troll like you. Knows nothing about the topic then when someone hits you hard you respond by the typical "im outta here" excuse. Face it, you can't hide your bullshit, its written all over your comment.
I haven’t read the other comments, but as an off roading enthusiast I can tell you that tire choice/pressure is a HUGE factor in climbing steep slippery hills. The fault I see in the lack of ability to climb that hill is NOT in Subaru’s all wheel drive system, but rather in the lack of traction in those street tires. But that said, I still liked your video. 👍🏻
Where the Subaru really shines in my opinion is when it's pulling away from a standstill when at a stoplight on an icy or really snow-covered road. Even with just the OEM Continental tires, during the course of eight Buffalo winters, I've never seen any other vehicle that can pull away more quickly than I can with my 2011 Outback 3.6R Limited. Note: This is the 6- cylinder, 256 HP model, with a 5-speed Automatic Transmission (but not a CVT).
What a stellar scientific way to test the drive system! Great job! One suggestion, to simulate a very slight grade, once the slip tires are on the rollers you could put the small ramps against the Traction tires. You could increase the severity of that ramp or wheelchock to increase simulated obstacle or grade
Put the vehicle under some kind of load. Like a snatch cord that acts like a rubber band. Then use something like a hanging scale to get a consistent load. This would help test how much torque is going to the tires with traction. The idea being to help simulate a slight hill rather than flat surface that I could push the vehicle off of. Just a thought. You guys are awesome by the way!
VDC is different from traction control. Subaru's AWD has traction control built in, with VDC off. It will always send SOME torque to wheels with traction with VDC off. Turning VDC on just allows less wheel spin, and also enables the ABS and throttle limiting functions to "optimize" traction and stability in dicey turns and on slippery roads. VDC is actually WORSE offroad because you want to allow wheel spin without throttle limiting. VDC can be helpful on icy roads for obvious reasons - you want little wheel spin!
While this test is a good demonstration of how brake force traction control systems work in general, it's probably worth pointing out that any modern all wheel drive vehicle should perform similarly, as traction/stability control is standard (mandatory) on new passenger vehicles in most countries. AWD systems using traction control vastly outperform older, open differential systems, but do have some limitations compared to locking or certain types of limited slip differentials, especially in off road conditions. I agree with the other comments suggesting an inclined ramp, as I suspect that the roller system as tested on a level surface could have been defeated fairly easily by even the VW with a little rocking and/or generous application of throttle. An incline would be more demanding and better demonstrate the capability of a given system. I'd really like to see you perform this test on your "old vs new Cherokee" to show how easily an open diff 4wd system can be defeated by ice or a lifted wheel. I did some extensive testing on the Jeep Quadrarive system used in the 99-04 Grand Cherokee, which didn't have traction control but used Dana Hydra Lok (Vari Lok) diffs front and rear. I made a couple videos of the system in action ua-cam.com/video/C1pCDP2PkL4/v-deo.html If you have an older, pre-traction control vehicle and find yourself spinning one wheel, you can take a tip right from the owner's manual of my 75 Ramcharger; gently apply brake and accelerator together. Although not as effective as applying brake force to just the spinning wheel, it will have a similar effect in evening the torque distribution side to side. It's nice to see videos that acknowledge the value of traction control. Emergency brake assist and stability control would be nice to see featured as well. Great videos, keep it up!
Excellent and very thorough video. well done guys, best one ive seen to date that really portrays the AWD system and how it works in different senarios
I agree with a lot of the comments below. Either put a block/ramp in front of the traction wheel that the wheel needs to climb over or try the test on an incline. Incline would be difficult to even get the car on the rollers without having a way to lock the rollers, however.
That is a great test. It proves that the subaru works great in a regular situation, on a flat asphalt parking lot. You should try to find a hill and put that cvt to a real test. Great video I think you easily demonstrated how differentials work for the average person.
I think you've got this test spot on man, really good. We are a 2 4X4 family, one is always a Subaru and the other a beefier one. One thing I will never understand is the use of Bridgestone tyres of any kind. They are really poor on a Subaru. They will be fine in your test but extremely poor ANYWHERE else. I understand you don't dictate the tyre choices. Currently got Michellin Cross Climate+ on our Impreza and General Grabber AT on the old Forester we gave to my Father in Law, they only just fit but are awesome for mud and snow and towing. I have bought so many Subaru with Bridgestones on, other 4X4 too and can't wait for them to wear down. I've got Toyo Open Country AT2 on the bigger 4X4, very good but wearing down alarmingly quickly. It's all about the tyres, nearly always is. Oh and our Subaru have Lo ratio just like our bigger 4X4s so way more control available. :)
The best modification to this test would be to see exactly how much torque can be applied to the wheel with traction. To do this, you could anchor the car to something stationary and have a strong weigh scale between the vehicle and the anchor. That way you'd be able to measure exactly how much weight that wheel can actually pull. It could also be a good way to compare various CVT's, DCT'S and ordinary autos with torque converters. You should also demonstrate the old off-roaders trick of using the hand brake to apply some brakes to the spinning wheel and and overcoming the brake with the wheel with traction to get off the rollers (2WD). You can also do this by applying the brakes on a 4X4 and slowly applying more power until you get moving. It would be easy using an auto with 4Lo engaged.
You can also watch the test of the Subaru Outback's AWD system in the mountains here: ua-cam.com/video/6ua51LAtgVM/v-deo.html
Awesome video! Love you guys! This was a lot of information and results from a minimal amount of equipment done in a professional way, very informative and cost-effective! I too was wondering about Subarus with more power. With a Subaru ascent with 260 hp 2.4 L turbo boxer for do any better on gold mine Hill?. With the extra power result In just more slippage with the stock tires? I think the ascent also has a fair amount of ground clearance, but probably less break over angle. I wish Subaru would give you guys more cars, you’re perfect to test them out! Thanks again!
Thanks for the kind comments. Very much appreciated!
I own a 2012 Outback that I use for my job as a agricultural claims adjuster. I have 99,000 miles on the car today 10/6/18, of those miles an estimated 4000 miles have been off road in sugar sand, mud, canals, tomato fields, nurseries, citrus groves located between I-95 to the East and I-75 to the West, I-4 to the North and I-75 to the south in the swamp of southern Florida. My original vehicle of choice was a 2001 GMC Yukon, very bad on my back off road.
I have been places with the Outback the Yukon couldn't begin to attempt to go like sugar sand and the ditches of tomato fields in the Everglades swamp with water over the hood for brief times. When I counted citrus trees or mapped citrus or tomato acres I could go to the end of the row and make a u turn without backing up, no way with a Yukon or other vehicle. The difference in comfort for my back was very noticeable, I could drive the Outback 400-500 miles a day from home down into the Everglades swamp, map acres all day and return with no sign of any back pain, not to mention even off road I would get 25 mpg, the Yukon maybe 5 mpg if not sugar sand.
In 99,000 miles I have been through 2 sets of brake pads and 1 set of rotors, the sand and mud eats brakes, 3 sets of tires with 2 of the sets having damage from broken glass and metal pieces in orange groves and tomato fields, not to mention the thorns on certain palms in nurseries. I have had no other issues with the car other than a battery or two, had to go to a red top battery because of the rough terrain breaking the lead acid batteries apart.
I love the Outback, waiting for a 2019 the right color for me, will keep the 2012.
Now you just need to buy a FORCE GAUGE to go with that slip rig. sure a ramp setup would be a little better, but using a force gauge is quicker, easier, safer, and cheaper! see my other comment in the main comment section for some tips on how to use it.
I'd love to see you try Goldmine Hill in the outback with AT tires. Also, I'd like to see if the Forester has an easier time of Goldmine Hill.
I am by no means an automotive expert, but I've been driving for about 40 years and due to winter conditions where I live most of my cars have been jeeps/trucks/suvs/awd cars/etc. The Outback (2018) is the best on-road AWD car I have ever driven. The car does amazing in any real world on-road condition where traction is possible. It is by far the best car I've ever driven in the snow. During snow storms I routinely drive around people stopped with their hazards on and continue on up the hill to my house. I've used x-mode/hill descent to crawl down snowy and slippery hills far better than any of my previous 4WD vehicles, even the ones that had a transfer case and 4-LOW. It also does just fine on light off-roading such as loose dirt, gravel, and sand. However, it is not an off road car. I know Subaru's marketing suggests that it is - and perhaps they should stop doing so - but I don't think any reasonable person would expect a family oriented crossover wagon to handle the situation shown at 0:27. Still it is the best practical on-road AWD vehicle I have ever driven.
It's the same with any subie. My forester was amazing in the snow, and I can't wait to get out in my new crosstrek this year.
I've been driving in north eastern Canada for 15 years and most people I see in the ditch are 4x4 trucks and awd suv/cars during snowstorms. Awd and 4x4 only help's in acceleration and maybe stability if your a bad driver.
It does not have any benefit in steering and braking. Winter tires play the largest role. People think I'm a mad man for driving a rwd lsd equipped car in winter but with good winter tires and some driving experience and knowledge it's very stable(and fun!).
@@Korrupted8787 Does not benefit in steering? Well let me tell you something... First of all you havent driven an awd car. Second it helps steering even on dry surface BUT thats not the main improvement. Awd improves *traction*and *stability*. And so you cant feel the speed and the turns - the car is insanely stable (as far as subie goes, havent been in other awd cars). I have been in a FWd and a RWD car and the difference is insane... I am rolling in the car every single little turn it is so annoying!
My family owns a 2016 outback it kicks ass in the ice and snow. But a.w.d. cars are just like any car in that good tires are important part of winter driving.
I'm going to have to defer to the guy from Northern Canada :) He probably knows what he's talking about when it comes to snowy weather more so than me..! Also pretty much every car I've ever bought has been better than the last one - so maybe it's just technology in general. However, I think my point was that even though you probably shouldn't take your Subaru off-roading and try to drive up "insanity hill", if you're looking for an on-road snow car then it's very, very good.
Suggestions:
1. Chop up a few old bicycle tires and rivet them to the bottom of the roller tray rails to stop them from getting shot backward every time a vehicle steps off one.
2. Put all four wheels on the skates and demonstrate that there is insufficient friction in the rollers to allow a vehicle to escape their slipperiness.
3. Add "down" ramps to the other sides of the trays. If the vehicle gets that far, it doesn't need to demo falling off them.
4. Same testing but in reverse gear
5. Same testing but on varying hill grades (Newton-Raphson selection algorithm) to evaluate what grade is "too steep" for a vehicle to escape (both forward and backward) with only one wheel having traction. And then with two wheels having traction.
6. Less talking, more testing. All of the above could be combined using a text banner under each test condition and show the video in 2x speed because who wants to watch a Subaru drive off rollers 200 times? (i.e. You need some fail in there or it gets boring).
7. Colored wheel graphics in a corner that identify which wheel(s) have traction during each test (and don't).
Excellent evaluation idea that should be added to EVERY vehicle review that TFL performs from now on, regardless of drive system. Basically, this eval would be pertinent for all drivers outside of areas like San Diego with perfect weather year round. Curious is these skates would work on the bigger trucks. They seem small and light-duty and I wonder if pure momentum from the vehicle rocking could carry it over the skates instead of traction.
In addition, this is an excellent review of the video. I had similar questions. 1) I was wondering about four skates as well. As one aspect of this test, establish a baseline by demonstrating which wheels are moving in a four-wheel low-friction event. I also would consider securing the vehicle front and back with tie-down chains to fully realize which wheels are moving when under a full loss of traction simulation. Easier than moving 2 or 3 around. 2) As a basic safety thought, add some little friction to the skate base-plates to reduce the skates from being kicked so far. Also, down-ramps seem like they would help but probably not critical. 3) I also like the idea of reverse and different grades of incline such as a simple loading dock ramp, as long as the intended direction is always up the ramp (silly but necessary). 4) For me, less dialogue and more data, such as the graphics that you suggested, is always welcome but this is a video review so......
Overall, it's good to see TFL looking to expand it's evals with data and demonstrable representations of a normally subjective opinion. I look forward to future reviews like this.
BTW, I agree that I would love to see the three different Grand Cherokee systems stacked against each other to see how much of the marketing hype is justified. I have a 2016 and love it but I am curious what I am missing with the eLSD in the rear.
Down ramps are a safety item so as to not impart horizontal energy to the roller assemblies to prevent the rollers from sliding off, and hit someone or something.
Please do alot of slip tests, Jeep QuadraTrack, Landcruiser, Discovery................................all 4x4s :)
Try Car question. ua-cam.com/video/r2iiM55nI60/v-deo.html
Wanna see BMW X-Drive as well.
That first video is a slightly older 6 cylinder outback, should do a lot better as it has a regular automatic instead of the CVT.
you want some fun, do a diagonal roller test on a older 4x4 with open diffs at both ends and no TCS, it will sit there and spin a wheel at both ends and go nowhere.
Can't afford a rollback
next time, try 3 wheels on rollers, but on the 4th wheel, put a ramp to sort of simulate a heavier load, or a road uphill. ramp could be the same as the one you use to get onto the rollers.
@mik995px Really? How many times does a Subaru have to prove that it's better than anything else out there when it comes to all wheel drive? Hey I have an idea, why don't we put three wheels on the rollers, and the fourth wheel I'll put a chain through it and attach it to a reinforced concrete wall, and see if the car could pull the wall down! Give me a break! The Subaru has the best all wheel drive in the industry hands down..!
@@gemster18 yeah with a garbage CVT behind it. Don't be a butthurt lol
Mik995px I thought the same. That's a good idea
bla bla bla hum ,, not better than a jeep, especially with its garbage cvt
@@HamishW96 Its still better than all the other AWD systems sry. Even with a CVT. Which by the way... Is really good.
I agree with another comment. Put a ramp under the wheel (or wheels) that are not on rollers. Simulates more load, like going up a hill or deep snow. Also please do this test with the competition.
Please make more of these videos. Very curious about a VW Alltrack
+FunkiHunter Disagreed. Audi Quattro with Torsen is the best AWD system in the world. It dominated rallying until the system got banned in 1986 because it is just too good. Subaru used to be good, but its new cars with prone to failure CVT with its over-advertised symmetrical awd system are only good at saving gas.
+Joao Guerreiro I don't think it would do as good but not a big difference because all VW except Touareg have the fwd biased awd, same goes for Audi A3, Focus RS. Video: ua-cam.com/video/S1d9wMLo-Tg/v-deo.html
No, I love Torsen diffs, but Tesla obviously has the best AWD system, because it's pure torque vectoring
No, this guy doesn’t really understand AWD systems very well. It’s obvious at the end of the video when he states that the Gold Mine hill pushed this car’s torque and climbing ability. Install the right tires and this car will easily conquer that precarious spot! And if it can’t, well neither will the raptor or a Jeep. Tires are everything! This Subie’s AWD was not at its limit at that spot, the tires were! How do I know? All wheels were spinning! Now, if one of the wheels wasn’t spinning and had traction, than yes, the car’s AWD system it to blame! This guy needs to educate himself a bit better before making such claims!
Banana Republic Don't lie ;) Quattro dominated rallying just when competitors were using RWD cars and even that is not actually the truth cause in 1983 they even lost whole championship with RWD Lancia. When other competitors started to use 4x4, they smashed Audi. And there was no any torsen in Audi until 1987, although this diff was invented 100 years ago...
A lot of today's AWD systems will pass these tests because the car has very little resistance on the wheel with traction. Offroading in the real world usually puts more resistance on the wheels with traction. Besides the tests you did, you should also try blocking the wheels with traction with a brick or a block of wood to see in the car can send enough power to the wheels with traction to overcome the obstacle.
That is not always the case. There are plenty of these vids out there already. Some cars struggle because the brake intervention is not strong enough and others because engine power is cut so much not enough power can be transferred to the wheels with power. The biggest struggle seems to be with the one wheel with grip on the axle that is not the main drive axle.
But is that the application these vehicles were meant for or are they just for extra grip in poor weather? In actual off roading I would prefer a Jeep or similar vehicle.
Nah, Subaru just makes it look easy. Even 10 years ago, most 4wd trucks wouldnt move when 3 wheels or in many cases even 2 wheels were on rollers.
Not all...you can see 4Motion for example (or any VAG system) won't pass when is only one rear wheel with traction, and is just because the system can't send enough power to that only back wheel. Different story is when one front wheel has traction, then behaves normal.
Try any Rav4 or Highlander and will struggle really bad in a diagonal situation, and it won't pass when if only one wheel (no matter which axle) has traction, just because breaking system is not enough to distribute power side to side.
You could see how some a/t tires may improve the performance for the Subaru for going up gold mine hill. Definitely shine a light on whether the greatest limitation was the CVT for the vehicle or better tires would help.
No one in their right mind should be driving up and down paths like that using normal touring tires after all.
100% agree , of course outback is no rock crawler but with better tires and cvt even can do light offroading.
I own a 2.5i Outback and the Yokohama Geolanders make an insane difference over the stock Duelers... heck, I even have better dry road grip now.
That does seem like an easy test to do.
It's not the tires it's the ABS dependent "AWD" after about 40 sec of use ABS turns off to cool pump and you're back to open diffs. Hence climbed first stage good, then utter failure on second stage, ABS cut off.
I like this new test. I am looking forward to how you do it on all the new 4x4's and AWD vehicles.
Necron Overlord yeah I’d love to see a comparison between a couple of AWD and 4x4. I have a 2018 outback I’ve seen what it can do but I’d love to see some comparisons between a couple of them.
I also noticed the wheel locks when the power is transferred to the most traction wheel or does the wheel go on neutral? I’d love to see at least some power on the wheel that’s not getting traction for some better off-roading capability.
Don't limit it to 4x4s. Add in the 2WD SUVs and cross-overs to see how they stack up. This testing could prompt manufacturers to base some of their 2WD traction control algorithm on wheel slip from the undriven wheels similarly to the way VW cheated their emissions testing.
I think you should construct a ramp at let's say 20 or 30 degree angle and put the rollers on that, and just have a simple locking mechanism which would allow you to lock individual rollers, this way you can test what would happen in real life scenario. Also If you're feeling like doing extra work, you could make adapters to the shafts which hold the rollers, so you can connect them to some sort of a brake system (maybe connect all rollers under one wheel to one brake rotor or a drum from a junkyard) that way you can give the car 2 wheels with no traction and 2 with limited traction for example.
I think this has probably been mentioned a few times but I would really like to see generational differences. Take something like a 1st generation Outlander AWD model with the basic full time no option AWD system (mine doesn't even have TC/ABS for example) and compare it to a newer model with the newer "S-AWC" AWD systems. Could be interesting doing that with old vs new foresters and similar comparisions as well.
ok, so here is what you can do with your new slip rig. you only need to one more fairly inexpensive thing: A force gauge! Preferably one capable of reading 2,000bls or more. Then, just chain the vehicle to something that won't move with the force gauge inline. Now you can easily measure the amount of force a vehicle is able to apply to the road with various wheels slipping. This setup will also allow you to very quickly and accurately test various terrain modes, since you won't need to reset the rig each time.
For comparison purposes the readings should be converted to a percent of a vehicle's weight. so, if a 4000lb vehicle can apply 2001lbs of force with just 2 wheels, then the car would theoretically be able to climb a 45 degree slope with those 2 wheels slipping.
I love my suburu!!! Will never own a different car!
Same I own my first subaru 2012 subaru outback 2.5i premium
You guys are missing out on so much capability.
Subaru's are wonderful to drive. If you haven't driven one you can't say. I owned a 2016 legacy 3.6L and loved it, got a 2020 gmc sierra 5.3L and am currently waiting for a 2022 outback xt on order. As soon as a month went by i missed my old Subaru. In my opinion Subaru's are awesome.
@@Dahawk427 people that buy these cars don’t need the capability of a truck or whatever u think is more capable than a Subaru. Subaru makes the most capable cars on the market. All other cars that are comparable are out classes by the capability of the Subaru equivalent. If Subaru made something comparable to a Tacoma or a 4Runner then it would likely out class that as well with extra features if not better performance. And if u think any American brand vehicle compares to anything I’ve talked about then that is laughable
Same here...before was Hondas and a Suzuki, and currently a Legacy sedan, and planning to upgrade to an outback SUV. Nothing beats a full-time AWD after driven one.
What most commenters are missing is the fact that the "talking" and "explaining" are minimal. People need to "SEE" what is or isn't happening and this ONE video is the only one that does this.
The expert talking and explaining ad nauseum just doesn't cut it.
Watching what the car actually does is all that is needed. "A picture says a thousand words". A video ....same.
.
Who else is in love with the Outback now?
It's nice, but it's no Wrangler
Should make a whole new channel with just these tests. As you receive vehicles for any reviews or tests they should be tested and scored like the tow tests. 4x4 trucks, 4x4 SUV’s, AWD cars and SUV’s are the most popular market and usually the reason why they are purchased is for the AWD needs.
"Aaand a little bit of throttle application"
*punches it to 3,000 rpm*
This was a very very informative test. It showed that the problem lies more with the cvt and less with the AWD system. It would be awesome to see this test with other vehicles as well and see what other systems like Quattro or xdrive do. Or also it would be really nice to check a vehicle with a terrain response like system, like a landrover or a modern Jeep, and what slippage each mode allows and if there there is any noticeable difference between for example snow mode and sand mode. Keep these vids coming please!!!
Rafael Domenikos I am also curious as to what different terrain settings do to the wheels.
Would love to see a Ford Raptor in Baja mode on this thing.
I've seen Mercedes using the same setup to show people 4matic years ago. They put an W212 E-class on it.
ua-cam.com/channels/JfliGgEFUBDyqTuNzGbH4A.html
Subaru's awd is the best system after BMW's xdrive
I think for the Gold Mine test you need to change the tyres to compensate for the incline - we compensate for slippery conditions with winter tyres....
Yea but this is TFL, they don't do good tests. When they took a 175hp outback for such steep hill, it already lacks the engine power to push its own weight over. They didn't bother buying the actual 3.6R version which gives all the power it has.
Can you try the same test for the Mitsubishi awd system and the VW alltrack awd system? Loved the tests.
Let's not forget the Buick TourX, please.
Can and will do
With as many systems as you can... maybe some trucks too.... do you need a good 4wd or AWD system?
I drive a 2005 Mitsubishi Montero Limited and would like to see how its traction control system works on those. Comparing old and new tech can give us a proper perspective of how things have changed, and if old-school is better or worse than new-school.😉
what about the 2019 Rav4 :D
My only advise would be to put some rubber along the bottom to keep them from shooting out like that.
And also do not grab the rollers while a vehicle is on them!
Spray on bedliner.
I would say you did very well with this test.
If you haven't already try putting those rubber entry/ramp blocks on both side of the rollers to help try and keep the rollers from jumping back. And to just make for a smoother transition.
One thing we noticed with the test on gold mine was that the wheels that were getting traction would not spin and were getting a limited amount of power. What would happen if you hooked the rear of the car up to a stationary heavy object like a post or truck. What does that 4th wheel do?- (3 roller test)
Does it spin, or spin a little then stop spinning because of some sort of traction system related restriction.
One other thought. When driving the car forwards on the rollers. What if the roller in front of the wheel was larger than what is currently there. That way the car had a more restriction towards moving forward to get off the rollers. Thus requiring more out of the wheel that has traction. This could also be accomplished by removing another roller or 2, setting the wheels down farther. In that case you would have to build something to put the rollers on to the wheel add enough clearance.
Great job! This channel is always on the list of shows to watch.
Try it on a ramp, say, of a multi story parking lot. There is a European video, about 5-6 years old, that does the same test, and the results are way different on flat vs. incline.
Agree, as this is where you will find must vechiles stuck, like on a slight incline in snowy conditions.
This! TFL - search UA-cam for that video and try to get/build an inclined roller plane. Then test various vehicles on it. Really showed the strengths and weaknesses of different AWD systems.
All your test showed was with one tire on perfect traction, the car could do what a 15 year old kid could - give it a little push on flat ground.
I agree adding an incline section would be great. Love the video and look forward to to more all wheel drive comparisons.
Thats the point.....it was 5-6 years old.
@@thatfrenchcanadian5779 Still better than this test. If people keep talking about it 5-6 years later, can't be bad ;)
One of the main reasons why I love to watch your vids, everyday, is because I get to see the beautiful scenery of Colorado and the other states and countries. This test is great but I hope you spread them out.
That’s a really cool way to test all wheel drive systems.
INDEED, if all you plan on doing it's driving on asphalt and groomed gravel driveways.
really it's useful only on flat surfaces
Don't drink the Koolaid. These guys hate Subaru because they destroyed one of Subaru's loaners, so they lost the privilege of getting any more cars from them. Normal people buy these cars knowing what they can do. These guys use them in conditions most people don't because they so want to go out of their way disproving Subaru. I bought my Subaru Forester over a Jeep because I think it's a better vehicle for what I need it for. Pricewise, reliabilitywise, and safetywise. Don't be fooled.
So what, they scratched up a loaner and don’t get Subaru’s anymore. But they still have mostly positive things to say about Subaru’s. That for me shows that they aren’t biased at all or are trying to hate on Subaru.
Suggestions:
1. Open a new channel title just for these tests. "TFL slip rollers test"
2. Use ramps for the exit from the rollers, the same you have for entering on the rollers. Those things won't jump like that from under the tyres. There might be situations when you can damage the car (or paint) if those jump to much.
3. Get yourself a ramp. 20 degrees. Or even adjustable angle. Do the tests on flat and on various angles.
4. Test all cars and trucks on the rollers.
5. Find a way to lock the rollers.
6. The 1 and 2 roller test, on front wheel, than on rear wheel. 3 roller on front and than rear wheel position.
7. Test 4 wheels on rollers. It will show how the system is balanced, how aggressive is the ESP and other electronic contolls, if engine or transmission cuts power, etc.
This will be a very interesting, entertaining, educational channel. You have to do it.
In addition to the simple flat surface, you could probably place those rollers on an incline to test the effect of various degrees on the AWD system.
Roller tests like these are where Subaru is said to outperform other the basic AWDs in such vehicles as Nissan Rogue, Mazda CX3, Honda CRV or HRV, Toyota RAV4, Jeep Compass. Maybe you can verify to see if any of those actually fail?
The new 2019 Subaru Forester has a new X-Mode that has 3 different settings (normal, snow/dirt, deep snow/mud). Hopefully you'll be able to test?
I think the incline in addition to the loss of traction is what really held it back
I've had Jeep's, full size trucks and other AWD vehicles. My 2018 Crosstrek is easily the best vehicle in rain and winter weather. No matter the weather I have to be at work, this car is perfect
McLovin's back!!!
Haha, I was trying to think of what nerd he reminded me of
6:51 driver side front locks up and transfers it right over to passenger, that's sick. it's cool to see everything working together on 3 rollers in all of the tests too. the biggest problem i had offroading a Subaru was power, i couldn't move a tire on a little ledge but it was very high altitude. also if i'm not mistaken part of the "symmetrical" AWD is that the driveshafts are the same length and all 4 axles are too.
Good job, very informative 👍
Great project! Some Thoughts:
1) The car is putting on the order of 1000 lbs per wheel on the rollers. Those commercial conveyor rollers are typically rated for 50-200 lbs, the high capacity ones maybe 600 lbs. I suggest trying to find some rollers with sufficient capacity to eliminate the possibility that crushed roller bearings don't influence the test.
2) When 2 or more wheels are lifted 3 or 4 inches higher, that reduces the weight on the tires on the ground. You can see this at one point in the video when even the front tire on the ground slips a bit. This is the polar opposite of the Gold Mine Hill test, where all the weight of the car is on the grounded wheels. Maybe as a minimum put the grounded tires on static platforms of the same height.
3) Tire pressure will have a great influence on the results since the tires are point loaded and lower pressure will smoosh the tires around the roller. Just make sure to use the same pressure on all tests.
Keep up the good work! Love the channel
Or...... You could have locking differentials like God intended.
And have bald tires and stressed suspension components if the road isn’t entirely slick. That’s why modern trucks have a centre diff for AWD mode.
Technically a brake locking diff is a locking differential. It just locks at the end of the axle instead of the diff carrier. There are lots of sacrifices with real lockers that wouldn't be acceptable in a Subaru.
who is god?
Or limited slip....
@@austingupton8829 please enlighten me with your divine knowledge
I'm glad to see you guys doing these tests! I'd love to see all the vehicles listed below go through this! I've watched video in the past where people test AWD systems in conditions such as snow, mud, etc. against other cars but those videos never show tire make, that drives me nuts just to show and try and prove that one car is better than another. This AWD proves a lot more and shows the truth. I own a 2015 Subaru WRX all stock except a Cobb Access port so far. I'm a native of Washington state and our car is a true Subaru, meaning we take it everywhere, even off road. The AWD system works wonderfully and would love to see that done on the rollers also! Keep up the good work guys, I really enjoy all of your videos!
Do the 2019 Sorento please!! I would love to how the dynamax system compares.
It was a good test, and props for getting the rollers, and making this. It's a great test that you can do on all AWD vehicles. Ways to test better you ask? Be more methodical. Test every configuration and you'll expose flaws / weaknesses in any AWD system.
Example:
Test - Center diff - front wheels on rollers = test and passed
Test - Center diff - rear wheels on rollers =
Test - Left to right - 2 wheels on rollers, Driver side with traction =
Test - Left to right - 2 wheels on rollers, Passenger side with traction =
Test - Front driver and rear passengers on rollers =
Test - Front passenger and rear driver on rollers = test and passed
Test - 1 wheel traction, passenger front =
Test - 1 wheel traction, driver front =
Test - 1 wheel traction, passenger back = test and passed
Test - 1 wheel traction, driver back =
Please do a AWD test on the Acura TL TLX and MDX, seems like no one will do it on a roller system.
Some of the most advanced systems around at an affordable price point. Active diff's decimate all if tuned correctly. Acura's system is fantastic.
MDX
ua-cam.com/video/KqzTsuPiTVA/v-deo.html
TL
ua-cam.com/video/KFx1KaRSfv8/v-deo.html
Hey guys, so I’m not someone who usually comments on UA-cam videos, no matter how much I enjoy them. But I watch your vids pretty much every day!! You guys do such cool stuff that I don’t see any one else doing, makes me happy after a long stressful day to watch y’alls videos 😁
it's a cvt issue, they can't handle the torq uphill, i'm from chile and i have the same outback but the diesel one, (2.0 turbo diesel flat 4, almost the same torq than the 2.0 turbo engine in the forester xt, etc etc), it has more torq than the gas engine but i have the same problem, i tested with 4 friends in a hill with grass and mud in my house and the only way to make it was taking a bit of speed. i think 'im going to make a video of that.
Way to delete my comment but here's proof that it's not a CVT issue. ua-cam.com/video/7BtRkjC-8gc/v-deo.html
The problem is using X-Mode and VDC control. One thing these fancy traction control systems do is cut power to wheels that spin to make the off-road experience better for those who don't have that expertise. Shocker, when they replicate the test with all of that stuff turned off using just Subaru's base AWD system it did just fine on the hill. It's not a CVT issue at all. It's an ignorance issue.
ua-cam.com/video/3gIW57HxgNk/v-deo.html
i dont wanna make a war of this but let me tell you i have tried in all the ways, first with all on, and then all off. i will give it up another tried
not an issue with the 6 cylinder engine. Even the older models have 213hp 212ft/lb.the new ones have 256HP 247ft/lbs PLENTY of power.
This channel is so good that don't even watch tv anymore. I binge every Jeeps & Subaru videos and I am not even that much of a car guy 😂
Too much talking, more testing 3 minutes of actual test. Thank God for fast forward option
Can you guys throw a pair of All Terrains on the Outtie and head back out to Gold Mine Hill! Also, in regard to the roller test, place both rollers on one side of the vehicle. I think that’s the only test you guys missed. Great, vid! 👍🏽
Subaru is one of the best companies that makes AWD or 4WD vehicles. I want this test done with Honda's SH-AWD and Audi's Quattro.
The only sad thing is most Subaru's are underpowered. I wish their Legacys and Outbacks had more power. I dont want to buy a WRX STI just to have a little fun.
Buy the ones with the h6
Subaru is gay.You couldn't even change the oil on this crap..... With 3" of ground clearance...
@@bobquattrini1787 the outback has a minimum of 8" ground clearance
I have a Lexus GS, I believe it is better than Subaru or anyone else: ua-cam.com/video/tNDV3U2H-Zg/v-deo.html 30/70 f/r then 50/50 in snow mode or when it slips. A used one is a much better deal than a new subaru. Subaru feels like a Milkwagon next to these cars.
@@scot.manning jeeps and subarus are completely different cars. One is for offroading and the other is a car for snow and getting to your dirt campsite. Also I hear this a lot saying jeeps are unreliable. And from first and second hand experience they are pretty hard to break and insanely good 4x4s.
We get 5-6 feet of snow every winter and put both our Subie’s into Xmode to get up our private road and into our garage during the winter months.
We LOVE our Subie’s and will own them for life.
I want that Beetle in my garage damn it!
Tommy, a really great and very fair test. This same test would be really interesting on all of the “all wheel drive vehicles” vehicles that are now on sale. I have one very small criticism, when you’re holding the camera you’re using to photograph yourself hold it at just below eye level, to me it always looks like you’re looking up at the camera. Other than that, absolutely top shelf.
I want to see the Subaru's 4 wheels all on the rollers.
Subaru:Y U DO DIS?
I've owned a 2012 Subaru Legacy 36R since new and driven it through foot deep unbroken snow without a hitch. A couple of years ago it got us safely through and around stalled rush hour traffic during one of the worst ice storms on record in the St. Louis area and allowed us to rescue a close friend who was released from the hospital during the ice storm with no means to get home. With heated seats, mirrors and wipers and Subaru' s symetdical AWD it's the best all weather vehicle that I have ever owned.
another really important thing to consider is Subaru awd is always on, its ALWAYS sending power to all four! this makes a huge difference in snow, light sand, light mud, and uneven surfaces.
we just bought a 2018 subaru xv and it just snowed 35cm in calgary last week. i noticed right away the hilarious difference between my honda awd and this subaru, we also tried it with my friends Nissan awd. the biggest problem with all other awd systems is they dont send power to the rear untill slip is detected, so i ask, whats the point of sending power to the rear if your already slideing sideways...... subaru FTW!
Toyota-Lexus has a better AWD system: ua-cam.com/video/tNDV3U2H-Zg/v-deo.html . 30/70 and 50/50 in snow mode. It is RWD based and derived from the Toyota Trucks. They don't have to advertise it either.
In my experience, AWD in the snow helps mostly to get moving from a stop. If you're sliding sideways, that means none of your wheels have traction. Even Subaru's AWD system is useless if 0 wheels have traction. What's needed is proper winter tires.
i use nokian studded winter tires on all my vehicles. and yes you are correct, i would take FWD/RWD with winter tires any day of the week then AWD/4WD with all seasons.
subaru sysmetrical AWD + studded winter tires+ light weight= totally un-stoppable in the snow/ice. i drive circles around jeeps/trucks haha.
Agreed about the tires. When I got the AWD Lexus it had cheap china tires(or they were hard sport tires). I couldn't even move in the snow, but they are ok in dry/wet. I put Michelin snows and it made a total world of difference. I think studded is overkill for AWD, that would be a good choice for RWD. Stopping distance is another story though. You need everything you can get. My neighbor bought a new imprezza sport and it could barely even get up the very slightly inclined driveway, It came with summer tires!
@@alb12345672 Subaru AWD system is 60-40 and goes 50/50 when it detects slippage (CVT) and 50/50 for the manual. Toyota doesn't advertise their AWD because everyone knows Toyota isn't an AWD manufacturer. So they there is no point in advertising that when you have a competitor that has been doing AWD since the beginning. Audi has a way better AWD system than Toyota and is been tested to be on par with the Subaru. Subaru AWD is always on vs all other brands that only turns on when slip happens. Like Mazda skyactive system, what is the point of turning on AWD after that fact one of your wheel lost traction? Its already too late.
Awesome video. You guys are really tasking criticism well, and making every video more informed and thought about.
The video was great
You asked for constructive comments so........
I wish there was a little less explaining. I wish it was roller explanation in the beginning, car claims, test. Some of the explanations were kind of drawn out and I started to drift. It seems you wanted to ,make sure the viewers understood what you were doing, I got it. So just shorter and more to the point with what’s going on please
My thoughts exactly.
Great video! This proves that the AWD system in the Subie works very well. This also proves the weak link is the powertrain (pointing a finger at the CVT) where engine torque is not enough to move the car uphill if alternate corners have lost traction. I would like to think this is computer programming that has been put in place to protect the Subie from damaging itself, but a part of me sees this as a car geared for the highway and does not have the torque multiplication factor that you would see in a 2 speed transfer case.
First of all, you should said it right at the beginning of the video, that you we're doing it for the first time... Then saying twice that a test was done with the little difficulties wouldn't sound so incompetent... It was almost a perfect reaction of an AWD system (of course without mechanical locking diffs).
But you'll see later while testing other cars the same way. Or you can check many YT videos now.
For example: ua-cam.com/users/duszaniespokojnavideos
For those unfamiliar with the difference between 4 wheel drive and all wheel drive : stock 4x4 rigs come with open diffs, there for get one wheel in the front off the ground and one on the back and your stuck. The awd rig has an advantage by being able to transfer the power from the spinning wheel to one with traction. You could get similar performance from a 4x4 rig by installing locking diffs front and rear.
In the real world you guys already proved the limitations of the Subaru. I think that's a cvt issue though
I don't think it's the CVT so much as the torque converter that is used to get started being a lot smaller than when the whole transmission was based off a torque converter. The current CVTs seem to have about the same 9 - 10 km/h per 1000 RPM overall speed at the slowest ratio as both the manuals and autos have had for a long time. And if you actually do have them fully engaged they seem to be happy to take all the torque the engine will give. It's just at the standing start zero speed up a steep hill (or whatever) they they seem to be lacking compared to a conventional automatic. And that, to me, points to the wimpy little torque converter.
Bruce Hoult that is likely correct, I'm not a Subaru expert, or even know a lot about them, but I know cvt transmissions aren't good for anything but fuel vefficiency.
That's the opposite of what I said. The CVT doesn't seem to be the problem because it will take all the power you can throw at it once you've started moving and the torque converter locks up.
Bruce Hoult and what I'm saying is that torque converter came with the cvt.
Yes it did, but there's nothing stopping next year's CVT coming with a better torque converter. It's a problem with the detailed implementation, not with the concept.
I have a 2018 Forester XT that I've taken on some steep rutted hills. There were two instances where I was climbing a very rutted out incline in the Forester with ruts at the top. The front drivers wheel came off the ground at the top of the hill. The Forester was able to teeter itself on the opposing front and rear wheels to to lift the rear passenger wheel off the ground and return traction to both front wheels to continue the climb. I had to do this on two different occasions on my trip. This was with x-mode enabled, and I wasn't aware of disabling VDC so it was apparently on at the time. I also have an '88 Wrangler with many offroad mods that I take on trips that could do damage to the vehicle, but for camping, long or comfortable trips, the Forester has pushed my Wrangler to the side lines.
2015 crosstrek with 4 people and our luggage in the back headed from akron ohio to florida. New goodyear assurance tires and a winter warning that was going to cause a 2 hour delay. I had this car doing 60-70mph through 3-5 inches of fresh snow on a highway at 3 am passing plows and lifted pickups over the mound of snow that seperated the plowed lanes from the snowed out ones. At no point did i lose any control. I was rally racing to the max but at no point was i uncomfortable that the car was going to lose any bit of traction. That car is an absolute beast. Every bit of that 148hp was being put to work and the traction and handling were nothing short of awesome.
When will the 98 mile fuel run be released?
Fridayjoefriday Same question. Really looking forward to the promised comparison of the Outback to the old Cherokee for real world mpg. Should be a fun look at advancements in technology of today’s vehicles vs years gone by.
Apply common sense. I have a 2018 forester cat and I drive through sandy terrain with no issues. I’ve driven on sandy hills with big pot holes climbing with little issue( all season tires). I’ve even driven on twist ditches off-road and the traction system worked wonders with the forester. One thing I’ve learned with Subaru and especially Jeep is turn the throttle management off so the system can focus on traction.
It's symmetrical because it has two wheels on the left and two wheels on the right.
Paul Montero oh Paul your such a comedian
It’s actually called symmetrical because all 4 axles are exactly the same length. Most cars have a shorter and longer axle on opposing sides of the car causing torque steer. Subaru has little to no torque steer due to the same length axle going to each wheel.
I don't agree with your answer. Torsion applied at one end of a bar is the same at any point along it's length. Thus, torque would be the same at the other end regardless of the length.
Paul Montero
Axles flex, they behave a little like springs. If you were to turn the axles slowly or if they would not flex then yes you are right.
But when accelerating hard on real axles that really do flex you will get torque steer if axles weren't the same length.
The shorter axle will reach max torque on the wheel side before the longer axle.
@@JT_life2022 it's a longitudinal engine too! love it.
Great job, guys. You've really stepped up your work. Third review for a Outback in the past few month. Waiting a similar review with a Forester(roller test + gold mine hill). Ahh...you've missed testing one front wheel on ground and other 3 on rollers
Search for YT blogger "duszaniespokojna" and you will find tons of such tests.
Very informative. Now I understand what my Outback's Symmetrical AWD will do.
clearly does not transfer into the real world...we know the VW is very good in bad weather and very safe on crowned roads where all wheel drives tend to slid off the side...the test needs to be modified; do the same thing but attach the car to a pole and use a pull scale to determine just how hard one wheel can pull that way we can build a chart of all vehicles tested and thus determining a baseline performance, ie if a car pulls less than fifty pounds it may not be enough to work on anything but pavement
stickloaf great suggestion and very close to what I was thinking! The only improvement I would make to this is, rather than a pole, use something that would move before the pull scale breaks in the event a vehicle is able to transfer 100% traction to the non-slipping wheel. Maybe a large object that can move before the scale breaks.
Thank you Tommy. I've owned a Subaru - good AWD system, it was on the fly AWD button in the middle of the stick shift, then I owned an Audi 4000 Quattro, Great AWD system.
Who buys a Subaru to go off-road? I have an Outback but never once has going off-road up a dirt hill entered my mind. It’s a family car that’s safe and can handle rain/snow. Get a real SUV for going off-road.
Subaru says it can offroad, when it honestly doesn't do very well on steep hills. It's their marketing that's false and misleading. If their marketing showed the car doing well in rain/snow, then there's no problem.
@npouch they used to be able to go off-road though. Especially when they used to have an automatic transmission. My 2011 3.6r outback with an automatic transmission has absolutely no problem with that type of off-road they did. The problem now is after they switched to cvts they haven't changed their marketing.
@ JonS Exactly. I totally agree with this. I knew a guy who'd take a stock Impreza (had the 5spd) waay out in the boonies. Never had an issue.
Jeremy Holt actually I’ve read it’s the second or third most used brand off road, with something like 1 in 5 owners using it that way at least sometimes.
I have an 03 Outback 5 speed with a 2 inch lift, it out off roads my friends Pathfinder and my neighbors Jeep Cherokee....and as to Jeremy Holt....A LOT of people buy Subarus to go offroading....not rock crawling....off roading. Clearly you don't live in the North East.
Really great idea guys! I love taking the rocks, dirt, and terrain surface out of the equation for testing the efficiency of the AWD systems in these crossovers. Now people can't complain about the driver, the tires, and so on. I think this should become a standard test for all new crossovers and 4x4 vehicles. Good work
I feel like this is how Subaru developed their drive system. Good in theory but not in the real world.
Talks about a button to turn vehicle dynamics off, shows the trip odometer reset button. Very good work, guise.
Controlled vs Real World .... while it would be interesting to watch systems in action spinning, locking, unlocking & spinning with all four tires on rollers. I’d prefer real world tests. Almost anything looks good on paper, in practice is where you learn.
Real world is trying to make U-turn by pulling into a muddy gravel entrance to a field & backing up.... its a parking-lot in a hilly wet grass field for festival, snowbanks, mud ruts etc. it may be a foot of slip & grip or it might be 100yrds of slip & grip.
Was the updated Gold Mine not enough to test the real world for you?
There are lots and lots of real world test on these things. it isn't even a new model or new technology. For on road applications, even in pitiful icy conditions the system works great. Just ask any Subaru owner from a northern state, or any of the many long term tests online.
The underlying problem is the torque management for the CVT, and if you go all "off road" in a vehicle designed for the street the computers are programmed to keep the CVT alive. If I owned one I'd rather have a long lived CVT, than a car that can slowly destroy itself internally in conditions where it is in over it's head anyway. Of course I'd also rather not have a CVT ... but that is another story altogether.
I owned an outback, performed excellently getting me out of snow, Ice, and mud. uphill, tight corners, gravel, it doesn't matter, Subaru's awd conquers it. the mistake they made was using shitty stock tires, if you want to offroad in anything, you should have offroad tires.
The rollers are a great addition to your tests! Keep up the great content TFL team.
Test Audi quattro but don't use a3 because it's haldex system
Actually, Audi secretly started putting Haldex in some larger models too recently.
Elmir Mujezinovic Nowadays haldex systems can be much better than older quattro. Just like in this Subaru above, which has awd system similar to haldex.
JAnx01 Rather not secretly, they are switching to Quattro Ultra.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers
Marketing buzzword.
And better in what way? Haldex may be better on rollers, but it usually struggles compared to torsen in real usage like getting uphill on a slippery surface. It's certainly not better for long-term intensive use either. Gears Vs clutches+brakes. The latter wears out much faster.
JAnx01 Better in terms of performance (not reliability, long-term use etc.). With haldex systems (or other clutches i.e. like in this Outback) system can do whatever it wants with the torque (all up to software). Older mechanical systems do not have such skill.
@@4x4.tests.on.rollers
It's not. Haldex can only send up to 50% to the rear and only when a problem is detected at the front. Torsen Equipped Audi's split the power with a 40:60 bias front/rear and can send up to 84% to the rear when needed. Additionally, Audi offers an optional torque-vectoring differential for its torsen-equipped models that can transfer all available torque at the rear axle to each wheel in order to reduce understeer.
Drive a S3/RS3 and S4/RS4. There is no comparison. The S4 can do on-power 4-wheel drifts whereas the Haldex-equipped models have terminal understeer at the limit.
You may want to attach a piece of rubber to the roller frame (between the roller assembly and the ground) to keep them from abruptly moving from below the vehicle. Thanks for the video.
Use the Jeep Cherokee and show a 4 wheel drive car or truck put into 4 wheel drive is really a 2 wheel drive, and to prove it put on the Jeep Sport Wrangler with its lift kit and good tires is also only a 2 wheel drive without any lockers. This might surprise some viewers.
What?..can you explain...
even if you put the vehicle into 4 wheel drive, a vehicle with an open differential will still spin only one tire. One front tire and one rear tire will spin in 4 wheel drive.
Allen Surratt that’s the reason the have electronics to brake the spinning wheel ?
He's right, 4WD systems have effectively two driven wheels unless they have locking diffs and/or traction control that will brake the spinning wheel. Look at the recent Cherokee vs Cherokee video. The old XJ Cherokee was spinning one front and one rear and had a tougher time than the new Cherokee when going through the ruts.
N Pooch I have a 2017 Jeep GC 4WD. Is this normally FWD ? When the terrain mode is set to Auto ?
I really like that slip system! It seems like it would really pit vehicles with varying degrees of approach and departure angles and different ground clearances fairly against each other in the way that they deal with those types of situations according to their individual takes on traction control systems. However, actually taking them out into the wild to see what their really made of is not only y'alls signature, but it really helps to demonstrate the overall aptitude of the vehicles true nature and dynamics for those trying to determine what vehicles to choose from which may be very close to each other on paper but one could clearly be the overall winner and have the clenching selling point for interested buyers. Again, I like the slip system, but maybe you should run all of your test vehicles using both methods to not only help customers, but to help automakers that watch your channel for feedback to really push the boundaries on what's possible with their vehicles and make decisions of their own whether to continue tweaking with their current technologies or bite the bullet and step away from a clearly dead end road. There's always a better way and they will do what we ask of them in the end because, pardon my French here but, that's what puts asses in seats and that's what they're all about. Keep up the great work guys!
There is already a channel doing this. Kind of old news.
Yeap, I think I saw it to ;)
It's awesome that you guys are doing this test, but if I may suggest - try this test on a slight incline, this will make it more difficult for cars to start moving with some wheels freely spinning.
5:05 of fluff and talking
Excellent evaluation idea that should be added to EVERY vehicle review that TFL performs from now on, regardless of drive system. Basically, this eval would be pertinent for all drivers outside of areas like San Diego with perfect weather year round. Curious is these skates would work on the bigger trucks. They seem small and light-duty and I wonder if pure momentum from the vehicle rocking could carry it over the skates instead of traction.
In addition, this is an excellent review of the video. I had similar questions. 1) I was wondering about four skates as well. As one aspect of this test, establish a baseline by demonstrating which wheels are moving in a four-wheel low-friction event. I also would consider securing the vehicle front and back with tie-down chains to fully realize which wheels are moving when under a full loss of traction simulation. Easier than moving 2 or 3 around. 2) As a basic safety thought, add some little friction to the skate base-plates to reduce the skates from being kicked so far. Also, down-ramps seem like they would help but probably not critical. 3) I also like the idea of reverse and different grades of incline such as a simple loading dock ramp, as long as the intended direction is always up the ramp (silly but necessary). 4) For me, less dialogue and more data, such as the graphics that you suggested, is always welcome but this is a video review so......
Overall, it's good to see TFL looking to expand it's evals with data and demonstrable representations of a normally subjective opinion. I look forward to future reviews like this.
BTW, I agree that I would love to see the three different Grand Cherokee systems stacked against each other to see how much of the marketing hype is justified. I have a 2016 and love it but I am curious what I am missing with the eLSD in the rear.
Hey Subaru have Toyota make a proper transmission for you. CVT is cringeworthy from any mechanic I've ever talked to.
Subaru doesn't use a regular CVT. It is device designed for Audis. Some german shop is building the chain. It is not a belt driven like you would see in a Nissan or Toyota. It is a chain designed for w8 engine's torque.
total nonsense. The Subaru lineartronic is a Subaru development and has nothing to do with the crappy Audi multitronic. The Subaru CVT is tough and reliable. The audi's multitronic has a very bad reputation, because it breaks down extremely often.
Subaru does assemble the CVt inhouse but the parts for it are third parties. And I QUOTE:
LuK GmbH & Co. KG, the Schaeffler Group’s specialist for systems and components for vehicle drive trains, has been a development partner to SUBARU for ten years. This collaboration produced a highly efficient all-wheel drive CVT that was presented for the first time at the 2009 New York International Autoshow under the name “LineartronicTM”.
Shaeffler group is a major Audi parts supplier. The chain that is inside the Subaru CVT was designed for w8 Vw products. Subaru doesn't design these things. They are in manufacturing and assembly business. Jatco belts that Nissan uses couldn't fit in a device that Subaru due to the way the engine sits.
the fact the buy parts at third party specialist doesn't mean the subaru gear box has anything to do with the multitronic from Audi. Believe me, the Subaru gearbox is way more robust and is a subaru design
Great vids all the time. Can you do a video using a Subaru with manual transmission? I'd love to see how it does compared to cvt transmission on dirt roads. 50/50 distribution of power sounds better than what the cvt puts out.
What's the point in performing a test which was performed multiple times by other people?!
Aref Eshghi Probably because many of TFL viewers haven’t seen this test. With that logic why test cars that many others already reviewed.
1- Many view the same car, but from their own point of view! so in fact, they create new content and is different from going through the same mechanical process which will always produce the same results!
2- I get that you mentioned 'probably'; but based on what data you claim "many TFL viewers haven't seen this test?" I can claim that probably many viewers have seen these tests!
3- Even if you are correct, they [should/] want to do something new. That's why there are 'one person channels' that have more subscribers than TFL!
Aref Eshghi Well, if you don’t like it- don’t watch it
I was waiting for your permission! Thank you! :))
The only videos I have seen using similar equipment have been made by subaru - allegedly for internal training. This makes them pretty unreliable as proof of anything. This is the first independent vid i've seen of this test - i'd like to see different manufacturers' cars tested - and of course on an incline as has been pointed out.
I like this test, Tommy. Y'all boys should do all vehicles on that.
subaru's all wheel drive is way overhyped
Said no one ever. AWD system is the reason how they win so many rally championships.
@@441meatloaf sure...
@@Digidi4 Of course I am sure. But for sure you don't know anything about AWD. Hence your stupidity.
@@441meatloaf wow now you're insulting me... you must be really mature
good luck kid
@@Digidi4 Rofl expected typical response from internet troll like you. Knows nothing about the topic then when someone hits you hard you respond by the typical "im outta here" excuse. Face it, you can't hide your bullshit, its written all over your comment.
Now this is what I want to see!!!! Bravo!! Should implement this test to all awd, 4wd, and 4x4 you test
I haven’t read the other comments, but as an off roading enthusiast I can tell you that tire choice/pressure is a HUGE factor in climbing steep slippery hills. The fault I see in the lack of ability to climb that hill is NOT in Subaru’s all wheel drive system, but rather in the lack of traction in those street tires. But that said, I still liked your video. 👍🏻
Where the Subaru really shines in my opinion is when it's pulling away from a standstill when at a stoplight on an icy or really snow-covered road. Even with just the OEM Continental tires, during the course of eight Buffalo winters, I've never seen any other vehicle that can pull away more quickly than I can with my 2011 Outback 3.6R Limited. Note: This is the 6- cylinder, 256 HP model, with a 5-speed Automatic Transmission (but not a CVT).
What a stellar scientific way to test the drive system! Great job! One suggestion, to simulate a very slight grade, once the slip tires are on the rollers you could put the small ramps against the Traction tires. You could increase the severity of that ramp or wheelchock to increase simulated obstacle or grade
Put the vehicle under some kind of load. Like a snatch cord that acts like a rubber band. Then use something like a hanging scale to get a consistent load. This would help test how much torque is going to the tires with traction. The idea being to help simulate a slight hill rather than flat surface that I could push the vehicle off of. Just a thought. You guys are awesome by the way!
VDC is different from traction control. Subaru's AWD has traction control built in, with VDC off. It will always send SOME torque to wheels with traction with VDC off. Turning VDC on just allows less wheel spin, and also enables the ABS and throttle limiting functions to "optimize" traction and stability in dicey turns and on slippery roads. VDC is actually WORSE offroad because you want to allow wheel spin without throttle limiting. VDC can be helpful on icy roads for obvious reasons - you want little wheel spin!
great video! please do this test on every awd vehicle you guys test from now on
While this test is a good demonstration of how brake force traction control systems work in general, it's probably worth pointing out that any modern all wheel drive vehicle should perform similarly, as traction/stability control is standard (mandatory) on new passenger vehicles in most countries. AWD systems using traction control vastly outperform older, open differential systems, but do have some limitations compared to locking or certain types of limited slip differentials, especially in off road conditions.
I agree with the other comments suggesting an inclined ramp, as I suspect that the roller system as tested on a level surface could have been defeated fairly easily by even the VW with a little rocking and/or generous application of throttle. An incline would be more demanding and better demonstrate the capability of a given system. I'd really like to see you perform this test on your "old vs new Cherokee" to show how easily an open diff 4wd system can be defeated by ice or a lifted wheel.
I did some extensive testing on the Jeep Quadrarive system used in the 99-04 Grand Cherokee, which didn't have traction control but used Dana Hydra Lok (Vari Lok) diffs front and rear. I made a couple videos of the system in action ua-cam.com/video/C1pCDP2PkL4/v-deo.html
If you have an older, pre-traction control vehicle and find yourself spinning one wheel, you can take a tip right from the owner's manual of my 75 Ramcharger; gently apply brake and accelerator together. Although not as effective as applying brake force to just the spinning wheel, it will have a similar effect in evening the torque distribution side to side.
It's nice to see videos that acknowledge the value of traction control. Emergency brake assist and stability control would be nice to see featured as well. Great videos, keep it up!
This has done the best out of all the ones you have done this one
Excellent and very thorough video. well done guys, best one ive seen to date that really portrays the AWD system and how it works in different senarios
Yes please do more AWD/4WD system tests 👍🏻
I agree with a lot of the comments below. Either put a block/ramp in front of the traction wheel that the wheel needs to climb over or try the test on an incline. Incline would be difficult to even get the car on the rollers without having a way to lock the rollers, however.
That is a great test. It proves that the subaru works great in a regular situation, on a flat asphalt parking lot. You should try to find a hill and put that cvt to a real test. Great video I think you easily demonstrated how differentials work for the average person.
I think you've got this test spot on man, really good. We are a 2 4X4 family, one is always a Subaru and the other a beefier one. One thing I will never understand is the use of Bridgestone tyres of any kind. They are really poor on a Subaru. They will be fine in your test but extremely poor ANYWHERE else. I understand you don't dictate the tyre choices. Currently got Michellin Cross Climate+ on our Impreza and General Grabber AT on the old Forester we gave to my Father in Law, they only just fit but are awesome for mud and snow and towing. I have bought so many Subaru with Bridgestones on, other 4X4 too and can't wait for them to wear down. I've got Toyo Open Country AT2 on the bigger 4X4, very good but wearing down alarmingly quickly.
It's all about the tyres, nearly always is. Oh and our Subaru have Lo ratio just like our bigger 4X4s so way more control available. :)
The best modification to this test would be to see exactly how much torque can be applied to the wheel with traction. To do this, you could anchor the car to something stationary and have a strong weigh scale between the vehicle and the anchor. That way you'd be able to measure exactly how much weight that wheel can actually pull. It could also be a good way to compare various CVT's, DCT'S and ordinary autos with torque converters. You should also demonstrate the old off-roaders trick of using the hand brake to apply some brakes to the spinning wheel and and overcoming the brake with the wheel with traction to get off the rollers (2WD). You can also do this by applying the brakes on a 4X4 and slowly applying more power until you get moving. It would be easy using an auto with 4Lo engaged.