Why do Ip Man's sons do Chum Kiu Forms different?
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- #wingchun #ipman #ipchun #ipching #chumkiu #chisau #kungfu #martialarts
In 1972, not long before he died, Ip Man filmed himself performing some of the forms from his Wing Chun Kung Fu system. He wanted to preserve the correct way to do the forms. Both his sons, Ip Chun and Ip Ching were there when the video was filmed and would've known the importance that this carried for their father. However, not only do they perform the Chum Kiu differently to each other, they perform it differently to their father. My question to this is Why?
TST, WSL and Leung Ting (all of whom trained under Yip Man at different times) all do the lifting punch very much as seen in the old film footage of Yip Man. Sam Kwok is shown doing a punch more like Yip Ching, which makes sense since he trained under both Yip Ching and Yip Chun, and the consensus in the Hong Kong Ving Tsun community was that the younger son, Yip Ching was the better of the two. My sifu from 1980-early 90s was Leung Ting.
Regarding the number of reps for movements in the forms, Leung Ting told us that the tradition was typically to do a movement either once, or to repeat it three times ...if it was particularly important. Or you could repeat a movement even more times in practice for emphasis. This is commonly seen in when some practitioners continue and do dozens of additional reps of the "chain punches" at the end of their Siu Nim Tau form. By this tradition, it would make sense that the usual way of doing the cross tan-sau to bong-wu-sau movement in Chum Kiu is with three reps, but it is not in anyway earth-shattering that GM Yip did four reps of this movement in the old film footage taken shortly before his death.
Now during my time as a disciple of Leung Ting, I saw hime make changes in his version of the forms, including Chum Kiu. I have also had contact with Sam Kwok, Augustine Fong and others, each of whom comes from the Yip Man lineage and does the form slightly differently. I personally prefer the lifting punch and that's how I do it, although after more than 40 years in the art, I have made some small changes myself. For example, I often choose to do the slant-thrust kick at the end of the form three times instead of just once (again following the 1 or 3 tradition) even though (in the LT lineage)we only do the left kick as the right slant thrust kick is concealed within the Bart Cham Dao form. As I don't often train the BCD, it makes more sense for me to train that kick (both sides) in the Chum Kiu.
Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun, like all Chinese martial arts, is inevitably modified by those who practice it. Leung Jan, Chan Wah Shun, Ng Chun So, Leung Bic, Yip Man and those who came after all did that. Each left a personal mark or signature. What really matters is whether we carry on the core concepts and skills. Not whether we have the "magic formula" for the forms. That said, it would be interesting to see how others of the older generation did their Chum Kiu, at least those who stuck to Yip Man's basic teachings: masters like Leung Sheung, Hawkins Cheung, Duncan Leung, Moy Yat, Ho Kam Ming and others. It would probably be best to leave out the wild card, William Cheung, as much of his teaching was taken from other, non Yip Man WC lineages or just flat out made up and wouldn't shed any light on the matter.
That's a great response! I also learned the Leung Ting Lineage but only up to the Chum Kiu form. So, it's also interesting to hear that the slanting kick is also in the Baat Cham Dao form. I always thought that it was believed that most people are right handed, so emphasis was placed on practising the kick on the left. However, your point on this makes much more sense. Thanks for watching my video and for your comment 🙏🏾
I find your prejudiced and dogma against William Cheung without merit or any facts.
Who did Ip Man ask to train/teach Bruce when he was kicked out of the school WSL and William Cheung. Why?
Why would Ip Man ask them to teach Bruce if they didn’t know the system and how do use it.
William was a student of Ip man as like all you previously first generation mentioned. He was friends with WSL, TST, Chan Chee Man, and many others. There are many photos from the 50s with William with his classmates. Chan Chee Man started WC with Ip Man after having a challenge match and losing against William.
Duncan Leung who started WC because of witnessing a fight William had with several sailors on the way to Australia.
And he will always will be Leung Ting’s senior. As Leung Ting began his training under his 1st teacher Leung Sheung and then later trained with Ip Man.
All Ip Man’s students look different to one another and how they taught WC also.
Ip Ching has openly said at the Hong Kong Wing Chun Conference that his father told him if you understand the core principles you make the system your own.
William was a first generation Ip man student from the 50’s and nothing can change that. People need to get over there prejudice, jealousy and hang ups with William.
@@kaiya2 No worries. You are correct that William Cheung is senior in the Yip man lineage to Leung Ting. There is also no doubt that William Cheung was a direct student of Yip Man and a good fighter in his day. By the same token there is no doubt that his "TWC" is quite different from what you see in the other branches of the Yip Man lineage, and some movements resemble movements in certain mainland lineages and the "Weng Chun" system ...and that's OK with me. Each to his own. It's high time the Wing Chun wars of the '80s were put behind us.
ip chin explained as to why he does it differently, basicaly its pereonal preference, he feels it works better for him since the original way was surpressing his natural strength, he asked his father if he could implement it differently, and his dad mentioned if people agree with you then yes. I have ip chun lineage but i am throwing away everything i learnt, no disrespect to ip chun. I am now restudying under ip chin lineage.
In all of the forms there are parts that can be done differently, usually 3 different ways. The end of the first kicking section of Chum Kiu is a perfect example with the uppercut, the arm break and the straight punch. Sifus will pick the one that suits them best and practice that in their form. Feel free to get in touch for more info.
Actually technically techniques are not important in Chinese Kung Fu, principals are. Especially in Wing Chun, techniques are and can be open to interpretation and that is why you see slight differences between different people doing the same form and it’s completely fine, as long as the principal behind the movement is correct, if the principal is wrong then that’s a problem. A lot of people I meet or know have not been shown or trained long enough to understand the principal behind the section or movement in each form, then when they see slight differences they come up with all sorts of crazy ideas to fill the gap instead of understanding this. Second as you asked the application of turning with the arm instead of an upward movement is Chi Na, it is to break the arm at the elbow, full application been the attacker punches, you Bong Lap and attack the elbow to break the arm unlike in SLT where the single Bong application is just Bong Lap Fak Sau. The movement done so it looks more like an uppercut is just because the emphasis is on rolling the elbow up to lock the arm and drive them down to the ground instead of breaking the arm with a blow to the elbow, not many seem to know or understand this but as you can see now the principal behind the movement is the same so the slight differences in the form is fine and actually shows there level of understanding to be able to do this and be confutable it’s still correct. Lastly the number of steps Ip Tai Sigong takes in Chum Kiu is based on one thing only, the size of the room he was in!!!! If the room was smaller he would of taken less steps, if bigger more, again ask your self if I step 3 or 4 times, does it change any principle? No of course not so it doesn’t matter, if you have the room step more, get more practice and be better faster, if you don’t have the room step less, of course now everyone steps 3 or 4 times as a matter of passing on the form but if you wanted to pass it on with 10 steps principally it would be the same and make no difference so is fine.
Damn good question. I've always thought this too, I have been doing Wing Chun since1982 and I've always been taught the way you see Yip man do it in the video clips..I'm glad I had good teachers.
I studied Ip Ching Ving Tsun under GM IP Ching for 13 years. He changed a lot, not only Chum Kiu, but also the other forms. As he told me, his goal was to make it more practical, easier and more in line with the basic principles. Everything he changed was in order to take the shortest path and to improve the technique for practical application.
I have a podcast about these topics, how the different styles in wing chun evolved. Unfortunately it is only available in german right now. I will translate it soon to english. If you are interested in any updates, you can send me a message her on UA-cam.
Also a teacher of Ip Ching's method. What I love about our lineage is the fact that Ip Ching always said this is "his" way. Unlike many other's who say they have the true Ving Tsun....Ip Ching, after discussing things with my own Sifu with respect to an aspect of the Wooden Dummy, Said, "Yes that is more applicable, but when you teach it, tell them that is your way, not mine". Brilliant teacher of Ving Tsun.
Attacks vary, and what was good in the past might not be applicable nowadays.. Especially with all the different systems developing..
Every Apple does not have to be the same or have the same exact nutritional value, but it’s still an Apple..
I'm in the WSL lineage and my Sifu says that many of the techniques are circular in Cham Kiu because they're gathering the opponent's arms on the way to the target. wheras the first form is straighter for structure and directness.
Great video, and analysis!
Nice one! I noticed that Wong Shun Leung does the upper cut or lifting punch. I'm guessing that this was how Ip Man taught it to him. Thanks for watching the video and commenting 🙏🏾
It would interesting to know why both of Ip Mans sons do the Baat Jam Do differently.
Personally I don't think Yip man made a mistake with the uppercut, he did it both sides.
i do mines with a upper cut. Going to do what IP Man did on video. AT age 70. I do all three sets 3 times takes 40 mins. i start at 6:00 am loosen up then start work out that takes another 35 mins doing free form Then it’s back home to practice on an articulating dummy I made that simulate arm movement and practice that and kicks to dummy. This refines my hand movements without being in class until the pandemic is under control
Ip Man was very ill and close to death when this was shot. There are things in this video which reflect his poor health. Notwithstanding this, I agree with your observations. The sons are not doing it correctly. They only trained with Ip Man in the last few years of his life. Given Ip Man was known for letting his senior students teach for him, this could also account for the difference.
That all said, I’m far more interested in how movement is done than what the movement is. I would love to have pressed against their uppercut to test their force.
I agree partly with what you are saying. 100% this was a month or less before he died. Watch him in the Dummy video and you see he has to stop. The fact he can do what he does is amazing. As for the difference between Ip Ching and Ip Chun...It's a world. Ip Ching lived with Ip Man for years and spent all of his time in his private lessons as he taught. Ip Chun, on the other hand never directly learned from his father. Simple question....When Ip Man died...who did he leave everything to? Ip Ching....Which show's a ton. Since he was the 2nd born.
At the 5.40 mark that's another teacher. That's My Sigung Choy Shung Tin he was a direct student for over 19 years with GGM Yip Man.
The punch is called Chun Kuen in Ip Ching lineage. Or, inch punch. Forget about the punch it is about the connection between your Yiu and your elbow.
I been through 5 diferent Wing Chung's schools, I have learned about 7 (if not more) versions of Siu Nim Tau. I recognaize that every Master has the right to develop his own interpretation of the forms, same way that each great musician, a piano player for instance, should play a music piece giving it the player's own perspective. But I think that the forms should remain more "standarized", at least in what it comes to teaching. Same way at, no matter to wich music school you, the musical scores are always the same
Then, it's up to you to explore the form. But if Berry master is to set his own way to perfom of the style, it will take long to the wing chun to finally settle down an grow
I like your analogy using musical scores! Nice one!
@@martialartsaddict9966 Thanks! 🇦🇷🇦🇷
very nice observation! Imo the lifting uppercut teaches much more about body mechanics, I teach it in application from the thai clinch, with max uplifting power. the inside block or neck chop seems also useful🙏
Thanks VTSifuSteve.
We are told Yip Man had no name for the turning tan with a closed fist. I suppose that’s because it’s part way between a few different shapes. We are also told the three steps are because of the size of the flat he had. Meaning if you want to do more do more. For educational purposes it’s best to limit numbers and keep everything the same that way a whole class can learn the same
The different motons in the Wing Chun forms get interpreted differently by different practitioners. Some alter things as they see fit. I study under someone who learned directly from Ip Ching and from what I was told, at some point, Ip Man and Ip Ching spent about 10 years together going over the whole system and refining it. As for the actual punch in question, i was told that it's a straight punch, directly after the 3rd Bong Sau, NOT a hook or uppercut. I think this is unique to the IP Ching lineage as far as i can tell. I also train a lot with someone who learned the entire system under an Ip Chun Lineage SIfu and he told me this is an arm break. So different interpretations. Part of the fun of learning this art is figuring these things out as the forms can be very cryptic almost like a puzzle.
Yeah, I agree, figuring out the meaning or intention behind the techniques and movements in the forms is part of the fun of learning! I like your point that Ip Chun's movement is an arm break. Thanks for watching the video and for your comment 🙏🏾
Sigung changed the last portion to a straight punch because he was taller than most people and it worked better for him.
If the concept of the form's ideas are valid techniques can vary.
Everyone does the form differently cause everyone is unique and express themselves otherwise. Once you learn ot you shouls change it afterwards
Maybe the foshan style GM ip Man did ,and his sons did the Hong Kong version
I have heard teachers teach the form and mention that it could be done with the upper cut or the straight punch
They probably said this because they knew both versions were being used
In my view j do the rising because there are already several straight punches
But i cork screw the rising punch like the water fist in hsing i why?
Because I do a lot of hsing I
And I know it works
I will say only master Yip man and master Chu Shong Tin are the original wing chun form.
Because the original movement is really difficult. That’s why most of so call wing chun master to simplify all the movements to fits their own body parts. If you want to know more you can contact me directly. Because my father is one the student of Chu Song Tin. And my father’s name is Mui Ching Chi..
Because their different people simple
Ip Man’s kick looks like a CHORUS GIRL kick!
That was days before he died of cancer.
I don't know what kinda ugly chorus girls you've been watchin'... but no.
It’s all personal inflection how many different applications of each move can you develop it’s a rising punch but if you need to punch to the midsection you can don’t be part of the concrete mess
Beacause they only learned the "little idea"
Is this a new robot-dance?
Stupid question, for example, so many doctors have so many methods, or so many teachers have so different methods, depend the students stupid or 🤓 smart...
My be there are some secret technique
ahemmmmm?
That's a low level white belt understanding of soto uke, the hikite (pulling arm) should be utilized. Many times the masters teach the form/kata without the bunkai/application
Yeah, but it's more about the technique that Ip Chun does. It looks similar to Soto Uke but it's not the same. I'm not sure whether Ip Chun is performing a block or a strike. Whatever the case, it's not the same technique that Ip Man performs. Thanks for watching the video and commenting though🙏🏾
@@martialartsaddict9966 you know that karate has it's origin from crane style kung fu? And there are many similar moves from karate and wing chun. And if you go back far enough you will reach a point where wing chun and karate had the same lineage, guaranteed.
@@IbrahimKhalil-bt9yh Yes, Yongchun Bai he (Wing Chun Bak hok) was ancestral to both karate and Wing Chun, but the movements, and more importantly, the energies, concepts and principles have diverged tremendously. They are very distant cousins.
@@VTSifuSteve I suggest you study history of karate since its origin is kung fu. Karate original name was chinese hand, so a lot of application of forms has been lost throughout time, for karate as well the different types of kung fu.
Best way to find out application for forms is to contemplate on its leverage and do trial and error.
@@VTSifuSteve so you can use the soto uke as an "elbow break". It depends on what you pull and where you strike. It can even be a throw, a lock or a strike
These are old forms