"Does Isolated Chapel enter the battlefield tapped or untapped?" Fun fact: You don't need Urborg for that. Isolated Chapel will always enter the battlefield tapped or untapped.
Something that helps me wrap my head around this answer is the fact that Vesuva cannot copy lands entering the battlefield at the same time as itself. It seems possible, but the other land isn't on the battlefield yet.
Dave can I just say that you're a true gem man. Your dedication to the channel is inspiring and your knowledge of the game is so deep if you removed ten ice counters from it you could put a 20/20 big brain token onto the battlefield. Thank you very much for the thorough, funny and thought provoking answers to MTG's most difficult questions.
It takes a lot to admit beeing wrong. Thanks for beeing so honest with us. Also I think I learned a completely different thing today. As many know, when a Clone and a Grizzly Bears enter the battlefield at the same time, the Clone can not become a Copy of the Grizzly Bears. I from the first time being told the correct answer I knew that it works this way, but never WHY it works this way. In this video (2:22) you said "Replacement effects apply immediately BEFORE the event that they are replacing [...]" and if I understand things correctly here I believe that this is also why Clones can not become a copy of anything that is not yet on the battlefield.
@@invisible4ever my guess here would be that the bears replacement effect would apply taking into account any objects already on the battlefield, but ignoring the clone. For example how if you had two clones enter the battlefield at the same time, you could have each of them become a copy of something already on the battlefield, but you couldnt have one become a copy of the other (not sure why you want want to copy a clone, but the point is that you cant even if you for some reason wanted)
Thanks for the update! I’m both thrilled I provided an interesting enough interaction to warrant the corrected video, and sorry one had to be made. Keep up the great content! Also, I’m still interested in whether you can look at the top of your library when you cast an Augur of Autumn with at least 3 negative anthems in play (ex, 3x Engineered Plague).
The ability to do something "at any time" is possible when a player has priority but does not use the stack. The augur dies as part of a state based action before giving either player priority.
I'm confused about the first example with Urborg. Since Urborg is on the battlefield, and says that EACH land is a swamp, I believe that Urborg is considered a swamp when you go to put isolated chapel into play. Thus isolated chapel would enter the battlefield untapped. at 0:37 you also state that "if nick had another land" the chapel would enter untapped. Is there some ruling I'm not aware of that would cause Urborg to not be considered a swamp itself when you play isolate chapel? Edit: Thanks for the replies. I missed that AMY was the one who had the Urborg in play. I thought that Nick had both lands in play. please ignore this comment.
I was confused by this as well, it would be nice if the cards had a color coded border for each player in the video so that it's more apparent who controls/owns what.
I don't know why but the fact that the line at the start with his email address on it is black text on a black background is really funny to me. You can see it briefly under the white text at 0:08
If I was going to make an educated guess here: Grist's ability only works if it's not on the battlefield, and humility's effect only works on creatures on the battlefield. The game will check to see what the Grist would look like if it would enter the battlefield, sees that it enters as a planeswalker, and decides that all's cool.
Wait, in the Urborg example, the replacement effects looks at the land as it's entering, *not* while it's on the battlefield, which is why it enters tapped. But, in the second example, it takes into account how it looks on the battlefield? I don't understand. Do the replacement effects care about what the land looks like on the battlefield or not? Surely to be consistent with the Urborg example, Imposing Sovereign will see that the land is not a creature *until it has actually hit the battlefield* and at that point, effects that modify *how* something enters the battlefield have already taken place, so the Island will enter untapped for the same reason the Isolated Chapel entered tapped. Basically, either the replacement effect takes into account continuous effects that would affect the permanent while it is on the battlefield (and Isolated Chapel will enter untapped in both cases and the Island will enter tapped) or it applies before the event it's replacing (and the Isolated Chapel enters tapped in both situations, and the Island enters untapped). From my experience playing Klothys onto a board with Rhythm of the Wild and where Klothys provides the last few points of Devotion to turn her into a Creature, where she doesn't get Riot, despite the fact that she would be a creature on the battlefield, I'd say the second one is true. Because the effect from Rhythm of the Wild (which modifies how a nontoken creature enters the battlefield) doesn't give Klothys riot, despite the fact that she would be a creature on the battlefield, I'd say that the game, despite the explicit requirement to take into account "continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent." it doesn't actually *do* that.
Klothys was a tough one, the thing there is that devotion is a property of the game state, not of Klothys. So immediately before Klothys enters you check to see how it enters, you look at all replacement effects already in play that would affect it if it was on the battlefield as well as any Klothys has that only affect itself, as well as any continuous effects. If Klothys was on the battlefield it would have a continuous effect that stops it from being a creature if _you_ have less than 7 devotion. _You_ currently do not have 7 devotion because Klothys is not actually on the battlefield, so it doesn't enter as a creature. We do not look forward in time to determine any properties of you or your board state. This is similar to the Urborg + Isolated Chapel example. If Isolated Chapel was on the battlefield it would have a replacement effect that makes it enter tapped unless _you_ have control a swamp. _You_ currently do not control a swamp because Isolated Chapel is not actually on the battlefield. In both these examples you look at abilities that the permanent would have if it entered because that's the only way those abilities could function, but the permanent has not entered and the game state has not changed. In the case with Nature's Revolt + Imposing Sovereign, there is no condition on the continuous effect applying. All lands are creatures, all creatures your opponents control enter tapped. Island is a creature, and it is controlled by an opponent, so it enters tapped.
At what level of judge does on gain the ability to [Cleave] rules text, as demonstrated at 1:12? Some may confuse it for Thanosing due to the accompanying gesture.
I'm not sure it is level based. More likely unlocked by completing achievements. Maybe have to conjure floating text from CR a certain number of times?
Please correct me if I'm wrong: So the reason the Nature's Revolt + Imposing Sovereign makes the Island enter tapped is because the ability of Imposing Sovereign creates a replacement effect that looks at the characteristics that the Island would have when it enters in order to determine if the replacement effect would apply to the Island, and it would apply to the Island, making it enter tapped. But the reason that Urborg + Isolated Chapel makes the Isolated Chapel enter tapped is because Isolated Chapel's ability is a replacement effect that checks the board state, and this replacement effect performs the check BEFORE Isolated Chapel actually enters, meaning it sees no Swamps when performing the check.
I still don't understand why the Chapel enters tapped. The explanation at 2:40 of "even though we can see what it would look like on the battlefield, it isn't physically there yet" seems to completely go against what CR 614.12 is saying. Urborg creates a continues effect that would make the Chapel a Swamp on the battlefield. Why does the game not look ahead to see how it would exist on the battlefield when applying the Chapel's replacement effect? How is this different than the third example, with Nature's Revolt + Imposing Sovereign?
the way I understand it is that the Chapel ETB replacement effect consider the board state *before* it enters the battlefield (2:22 "replacement effects apply before the event they are replacing") wherein there is no other swamp controlled by that player. The Imposing Sovereign ETB replacement effect checks the card type before it enters the battlefield, which has already been changed to a creature by the Nature's Revolt continuous effect which was applied first (like how Blood Moon changes Chapel to a mountain before it ETB). tl;dr the Chapel ETB replacement effect checks the board state *before* it enters and sees no other swamps, and Imposing Sovereign ETB replacement effect checks the card type before it enters and sees that it is a creature type
@@Fatninja479 It is not an additional cost: “If Mox Diamond would enter the battlefield, you may discard a land card instead. If you do, put Mox Diamond onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.” At no point is this cost paid while Mox Diamond is on the stack.
@@Fatninja479 "If Mox Diamond would enter the battlefield, you may discard a land card instead. If you do, put Mox Diamond onto the battlefield. If you don’t, put it into its owner’s graveyard." That happens when it resolves, not when it is cast.
A recent fun and related question: Nick cast reanimate targeting Grist. Amy flashes out Containment Priest. Does the Grist get exiled? (Answer: no it wont) Bonus question: Nick casts reanimate on a Grist in the grave and Amy controls Grafdigger's Cage, what happens? (Answer: the Grist stays in the grave)
Im still a bit confused. Say a creature enters tapped unless you control another creature. Should work as intended, no problems there. Say a creature enters tapped unless you control a creature (not another) then he doesnt see himself when he enters the battlefield, since he is not yet on te battlefield (like with isolated chapel being a swamp). However I always that that the wording, since they specified ANOTHER was the dead giveaway of how this worked, that if it wouldn't say another he can see himself.
You have to be careful when imagining wording on a card. To my knowledge they do not print cards that say "this creature enters tapped unless you control a creature" exactly because it would be very ambigous to know if it counts itself. However, if it helps getting your mind around this: If there is some sort of non-creature permanent that entered tapped unless you control a creature (which is more likely to exist, but dont know if it actually does). And you had a continous effect on the battlefield that made that non-creature permanent into a creature (which do exist already, but their names escape me). Then in the same way as isolated chapel, if this non-creature permanent was entering the battlefield and you had no other creatures, it would enter tapped.
Hello I play urborg in a midrange rakdos deck I am a begginer my question is does Urgorb give me two mana with a mountain or it gives me only the choice between red and black?thx
You could tap for R or B, but not both. The Urborg doesn't say you can tap for B "in addition" to the other mana, it just makes the land a Swamp in addition to being a Mountain. For the same reason, when you tap a land like Badlands or Blood Crypt that's normally both a Swamp and a Mountain for mana, you have to choose whether you're tapping for a B or a R; you don't get both.
does the game 'see' that creatures enter tapped even when an island is played? does the game look for ANY replacement effect that might alter how ANY permanent enters the battlefield, or does it only see p.e. effects that alter lands when a land is played, or effects that alter enchantments (opalescence) when an enchantment is played? would the game see opalescence if it is the only permanent on the battlefield at the time that a land is played? interesting stuff!
Whenever something happens, the game will check every single replacement effect to see if it would apply. That is when the game checks for continuous effects that also would effect the event to see if it changes which replacement effects can actually affect it.
Hi Dave, I have a question that is related to this topic. Say Nick controls Imposing Sovereign and Amy casts Nylea, God of the Hunt. At the time of casting, Amy's devotion to green is four. Will Nylea enter tapped? My question essentially boils down to whether 614.12 (or another rule) can check Nylea's own pip for devotion as Nylea enters the battlefield. I could see the ruling going either way. Thanks!
@@brofst And @Delti the answer is actually NO. We can see look at the rulings on Nylea's page for a very simple answer. 1/24/2020 "As a God enters the battlefield, your devotion to its color will determine whether any replacement effects that affect creatures entering the battlefield apply to that God. Because replacement effects are considered before the God is on the battlefield, the mana symbols in its mana cost won’t be counted when determining this."
Possibly related question: If you have a devotion of red of exactly 4, and Purphoros enters the battlefield, and your opponent has Blind Obedience out, will Purphoros enter tapped?
In Scapeshift, its a triggered ability. The lands first enter the battlefield, then they trigger Valakut. Thats why they can "see" each other. This situation is different. It´s a Replacement effect that happens before the permanent enters the battlefield.
Am I under-thinking it in that as the land is checking for what you control AS it enters and as you don't control any lands AS it enters (essentially the space between your hand and the field) that if you controlled no lands it would always enter tapped as there is nothing else to check. Now if one turn one, a player played an Isolated chapel, then an opponent played Urborg, and on their second turn they played another Isolated Chapel, that second one would check and see that there was a swamp in play and would enter untapped. (so long as it had the check as an ability) However if any of those cards had "X effect on card type 2 ON THE BATTLEFIELD" and something checked on a condition that would be met there, then things enterting the battlefield would not have to worry about that check. So say that green enchantment had "Lands IN PLAY are 2/2 creatures, they are still lands". The lands wouldn't be creatures UNTIL they enter the field, and as such the "creatures enter tapped" wouldn't apply as they weren't creatures until after the entered. Here's a question, that I"m pretty sure I already know the answer but curious if my reasoning is accurate. If I have Thresher Lizard (A 3/2 creature that has "..get's +1/+2 as long as you have one or fewer cards in hand) on the field, and I have two cards in hand, but one of them is Fling, and which I cast using Thresher to pay, would it be a 3/2 or a 4/4 at time of sacrifice? My logic is that it should be a 3/2 as Fling didn't leave my hand until I sacrificed for it's cost, leaving two cards in hand. (I tried to do this and we couldn't actually reach an agreement, so I gave it a 3/2) Or would Thresher Lizard always have the +1/+2 anywhere so long as I only had one card in hand? Or would it only matter at the time of sacrifice? Either way it's an odd interaction.
It does only matter at the time you sacrifice it. You first put Fling on the stack during step 1 of casting a spell (so it leaves your hand), then you pay the costs during step 8 of casting a spell, so at the time you sacrifice Thresher Lizard, you only have one card in your hand so it's a 4/4.
In the final example isn't imposing sovereign a bit redundant? If the island is a creature as it enters it can't be used for mana anyway due to summoning sickness, correct?
You're not _wrong,_ but that wasn't the question, just if enters tapped. Among many interactions this can affect, not having a blocker is probably the most obvious.
When I saw the miniature: why is this 4 stars? Urborg is a swamp so Isolated Chapel enters untapped Video: Amy plays Urborg and Nick plays Isolated Chapel Me: f*ck Blood Moon negating "this land enters tapped" is nice to know
I don’t think it is necessary for the sake of judging but it would be interesting if you could describe the wording changes necessary to allow the chapel to enter untapped with Urborg. What is the minimal change that would allow this to work? Are these changes practical and something we could expect to see printed on a Magic card? I see it as an exploration of MTG rules and deeper rule comprehension. I would definitely like to see you figure it out not only for this ruling but for all rulings.
Check lands, like Isolated Chapel, will always enter the battlefield tapped if you control no lands when you play it. Maybe watch through the video again. It sounds like you didn't quite grasp why it's tapped. Changes to Urborg to make Isolated Chapel untapped would have to be something ridiculously drastic, like "when Urborg enters the battlefield, each player searches up a basic and puts it on the battlefield". At that point, it's basically a different card.
All these bizarre comes-into-play problems would be completely inexistent if Wizards were just precise in terms of language: _Entering_ the battlefield is *not* the same as _being_ on the battlefield. I have never understood how a permanent can trigger its own ETB effects. Crossing the threshold is expressly different from _already _*_being in the room_*_ to begin with._
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
"Does Isolated Chapel enter the battlefield tapped or untapped?"
Fun fact: You don't need Urborg for that. Isolated Chapel will always enter the battlefield tapped or untapped.
Tear it in half, then have one half enter tapped and the other enter untapped
Nuh, uh. If Nick has a Worms of the Earth in play, Isolated Chapel won't enter the battlefield tapped or untapped.
@@Eagle0600 Well, that's true.
The interesting implication of this is that the word other on lands like Blooming Marsh is redundant and just there for clarity.
Something that helps me wrap my head around this answer is the fact that Vesuva cannot copy lands entering the battlefield at the same time as itself. It seems possible, but the other land isn't on the battlefield yet.
@@cellomarl6037 I think that is a bit different since fastlands specify "other" lands, leaving little room for ambiguity.
Dave can I just say that you're a true gem man. Your dedication to the channel is inspiring and your knowledge of the game is so deep if you removed ten ice counters from it you could put a 20/20 big brain token onto the battlefield. Thank you very much for the thorough, funny and thought provoking answers to MTG's most difficult questions.
It takes a lot to admit beeing wrong. Thanks for beeing so honest with us.
Also I think I learned a completely different thing today. As many know, when a Clone and a Grizzly Bears enter the battlefield at the same time, the Clone can not become a Copy of the Grizzly Bears. I from the first time being told the correct answer I knew that it works this way, but never WHY it works this way. In this video (2:22) you said "Replacement effects apply immediately BEFORE the event that they are replacing [...]" and if I understand things correctly here I believe that this is also why Clones can not become a copy of anything that is not yet on the battlefield.
now assume, the bears also had a replacement etb. how is the timing now?
i mean, there are two replacement effects racing for the "immediatly before" slot in time
@@invisible4ever my guess here would be that the bears replacement effect would apply taking into account any objects already on the battlefield, but ignoring the clone.
For example how if you had two clones enter the battlefield at the same time, you could have each of them become a copy of something already on the battlefield, but you couldnt have one become a copy of the other (not sure why you want want to copy a clone, but the point is that you cant even if you for some reason wanted)
The Clone copying something entering at the same time scenario is discussed in some detail in DDR#301 here ua-cam.com/video/Uqf8NKQfnA4/v-deo.html
Thanks for the update! I’m both thrilled I provided an interesting enough interaction to warrant the corrected video, and sorry one had to be made. Keep up the great content! Also, I’m still interested in whether you can look at the top of your library when you cast an Augur of Autumn with at least 3 negative anthems in play (ex, 3x Engineered Plague).
But augur would be dead, won't it? So that's a no.
I mean, you can look right before the last minus effect takes place. 🤔
The question comes down to “Do ‘at any time’ abilities occur between state based actions’?”
The ability to do something "at any time" is possible when a player has priority but does not use the stack. The augur dies as part of a state based action before giving either player priority.
I'm confused about the first example with Urborg. Since Urborg is on the battlefield, and says that EACH land is a swamp, I believe that Urborg is considered a swamp when you go to put isolated chapel into play. Thus isolated chapel would enter the battlefield untapped. at 0:37 you also state that "if nick had another land" the chapel would enter untapped. Is there some ruling I'm not aware of that would cause Urborg to not be considered a swamp itself when you play isolate chapel?
Edit: Thanks for the replies. I missed that AMY was the one who had the Urborg in play. I thought that Nick had both lands in play. please ignore this comment.
I understand your confusion, but It's Amy that has the Urborg, not Nick. So Nick doesn't have another swamp (or land for that matter) in play.
Isolated chapel says "you", and the urborg isn't controlled by the player with the isolated chapel.
Amy controls Urborg though and Nick plays the Isolated Chapel. Urborg works for every land on the battlefield!
Nick doesn't have the Urborg in play, Amy does. lsolated Chapel looks at what lands Nick has in play, not any other player's.
I was confused by this as well, it would be nice if the cards had a color coded border for each player in the video so that it's more apparent who controls/owns what.
I don't know why but the fact that the line at the start with his email address on it is black text on a black background is really funny to me. You can see it briefly under the white text at 0:08
Excellent detail, thank you pastor Dave for today's chapel lesson!
Curious to know how Humility affects Grist that's being cast: does it become a 1/1 or remains a planeswalker?
If I was going to make an educated guess here: Grist's ability only works if it's not on the battlefield, and humility's effect only works on creatures on the battlefield. The game will check to see what the Grist would look like if it would enter the battlefield, sees that it enters as a planeswalker, and decides that all's cool.
Humility won't have any effect on Grist since it doesn't apply to it while it's not a creature.
Grist will not enter the battlefield as a creature, so humilty will have no effect on it.
Wait, in the Urborg example, the replacement effects looks at the land as it's entering, *not* while it's on the battlefield, which is why it enters tapped. But, in the second example, it takes into account how it looks on the battlefield? I don't understand. Do the replacement effects care about what the land looks like on the battlefield or not? Surely to be consistent with the Urborg example, Imposing Sovereign will see that the land is not a creature *until it has actually hit the battlefield* and at that point, effects that modify *how* something enters the battlefield have already taken place, so the Island will enter untapped for the same reason the Isolated Chapel entered tapped.
Basically, either the replacement effect takes into account continuous effects that would affect the permanent while it is on the battlefield (and Isolated Chapel will enter untapped in both cases and the Island will enter tapped) or it applies before the event it's replacing (and the Isolated Chapel enters tapped in both situations, and the Island enters untapped). From my experience playing Klothys onto a board with Rhythm of the Wild and where Klothys provides the last few points of Devotion to turn her into a Creature, where she doesn't get Riot, despite the fact that she would be a creature on the battlefield, I'd say the second one is true. Because the effect from Rhythm of the Wild (which modifies how a nontoken creature enters the battlefield) doesn't give Klothys riot, despite the fact that she would be a creature on the battlefield, I'd say that the game, despite the explicit requirement to take into account "continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent." it doesn't actually *do* that.
Klothys was a tough one, the thing there is that devotion is a property of the game state, not of Klothys. So immediately before Klothys enters you check to see how it enters, you look at all replacement effects already in play that would affect it if it was on the battlefield as well as any Klothys has that only affect itself, as well as any continuous effects. If Klothys was on the battlefield it would have a continuous effect that stops it from being a creature if _you_ have less than 7 devotion. _You_ currently do not have 7 devotion because Klothys is not actually on the battlefield, so it doesn't enter as a creature. We do not look forward in time to determine any properties of you or your board state.
This is similar to the Urborg + Isolated Chapel example. If Isolated Chapel was on the battlefield it would have a replacement effect that makes it enter tapped unless _you_ have control a swamp. _You_ currently do not control a swamp because Isolated Chapel is not actually on the battlefield.
In both these examples you look at abilities that the permanent would have if it entered because that's the only way those abilities could function, but the permanent has not entered and the game state has not changed. In the case with Nature's Revolt + Imposing Sovereign, there is no condition on the continuous effect applying. All lands are creatures, all creatures your opponents control enter tapped. Island is a creature, and it is controlled by an opponent, so it enters tapped.
At what level of judge does on gain the ability to [Cleave] rules text, as demonstrated at 1:12? Some may confuse it for Thanosing due to the accompanying gesture.
I'm not sure it is level based. More likely unlocked by completing achievements. Maybe have to conjure floating text from CR a certain number of times?
Haha, I'm glad someone picked up on the Thanos thing.
Really cool of you to not only make follow up videos to correct things, but also take down the erroneous older video
great video as usual, and a very relevant topic!
Please correct me if I'm wrong:
So the reason the Nature's Revolt + Imposing Sovereign makes the Island enter tapped is because the ability of Imposing Sovereign creates a replacement effect that looks at the characteristics that the Island would have when it enters in order to determine if the replacement effect would apply to the Island, and it would apply to the Island, making it enter tapped. But the reason that Urborg + Isolated Chapel makes the Isolated Chapel enter tapped is because Isolated Chapel's ability is a replacement effect that checks the board state, and this replacement effect performs the check BEFORE Isolated Chapel actually enters, meaning it sees no Swamps when performing the check.
I still don't understand why the Chapel enters tapped. The explanation at 2:40 of "even though we can see what it would look like on the battlefield, it isn't physically there yet" seems to completely go against what CR 614.12 is saying. Urborg creates a continues effect that would make the Chapel a Swamp on the battlefield. Why does the game not look ahead to see how it would exist on the battlefield when applying the Chapel's replacement effect? How is this different than the third example, with Nature's Revolt + Imposing Sovereign?
the way I understand it is that the Chapel ETB replacement effect consider the board state *before* it enters the battlefield (2:22 "replacement effects apply before the event they are replacing") wherein there is no other swamp controlled by that player. The Imposing Sovereign ETB replacement effect checks the card type before it enters the battlefield, which has already been changed to a creature by the Nature's Revolt continuous effect which was applied first (like how Blood Moon changes Chapel to a mountain before it ETB). tl;dr the Chapel ETB replacement effect checks the board state *before* it enters and sees no other swamps, and Imposing Sovereign ETB replacement effect checks the card type before it enters and sees that it is a creature type
Can you counter a Mox Diamond after the player discarded the card? Same topic I guess
Yes. Discarding the card is as an additional cost to cast that card. I believe. Same thing works for madness
No, you only discard a card if the Mox would enter the battlefield, and at that point it has moved beyond the stack.
@@Fatninja479 It is not an additional cost: “If Mox Diamond would enter the battlefield, you may discard a land card instead. If you do, put Mox Diamond onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.” At no point is this cost paid while Mox Diamond is on the stack.
@@Fatninja479 "If Mox Diamond would enter the battlefield, you may discard a land card instead. If you do, put Mox Diamond onto the battlefield. If you don’t, put it into its owner’s graveyard."
That happens when it resolves, not when it is cast.
I don't think so - the discard is a replacement effect, not a cost, and it wouldn't even attempt to ETB from the stack unless it had already resolved.
A recent fun and related question:
Nick cast reanimate targeting Grist.
Amy flashes out Containment Priest.
Does the Grist get exiled?
(Answer: no it wont)
Bonus question:
Nick casts reanimate on a Grist in the grave and Amy controls Grafdigger's Cage, what happens?
(Answer: the Grist stays in the grave)
Duh?
Im still a bit confused. Say a creature enters tapped unless you control another creature. Should work as intended, no problems there. Say a creature enters tapped unless you control a creature (not another) then he doesnt see himself when he enters the battlefield, since he is not yet on te battlefield (like with isolated chapel being a swamp). However I always that that the wording, since they specified ANOTHER was the dead giveaway of how this worked, that if it wouldn't say another he can see himself.
You have to be careful when imagining wording on a card. To my knowledge they do not print cards that say "this creature enters tapped unless you control a creature" exactly because it would be very ambigous to know if it counts itself.
However, if it helps getting your mind around this: If there is some sort of non-creature permanent that entered tapped unless you control a creature (which is more likely to exist, but dont know if it actually does). And you had a continous effect on the battlefield that made that non-creature permanent into a creature (which do exist already, but their names escape me). Then in the same way as isolated chapel, if this non-creature permanent was entering the battlefield and you had no other creatures, it would enter tapped.
The "another" part is also often used to minimize rules question/misunderstandings.
My guess is the "another" isn't there because it's bad english. Chapel isn't a swamp, so saying you need to control another swamp sounds wrong
Hello I play urborg in a midrange rakdos deck I am a begginer my question is does Urgorb give me two mana with a mountain or it gives me only the choice between red and black?thx
You could tap for R or B, but not both. The Urborg doesn't say you can tap for B "in addition" to the other mana, it just makes the land a Swamp in addition to being a Mountain. For the same reason, when you tap a land like Badlands or Blood Crypt that's normally both a Swamp and a Mountain for mana, you have to choose whether you're tapping for a B or a R; you don't get both.
can you cover gibbering descent + mishra's bauble?
I thought it was in a simpler way like chapel is checking for anything while Entering not still on the battlefield
does the game 'see' that creatures enter tapped even when an island is played? does the game look for ANY replacement effect that might alter how ANY permanent enters the battlefield, or does it only see p.e. effects that alter lands when a land is played, or effects that alter enchantments (opalescence) when an enchantment is played? would the game see opalescence if it is the only permanent on the battlefield at the time that a land is played? interesting stuff!
Whenever something happens, the game will check every single replacement effect to see if it would apply. That is when the game checks for continuous effects that also would effect the event to see if it changes which replacement effects can actually affect it.
@@mainman879 i find this to be very clear. thank you v much :)
Hi Dave, I have a question that is related to this topic. Say Nick controls Imposing Sovereign and Amy casts Nylea, God of the Hunt. At the time of casting, Amy's devotion to green is four. Will Nylea enter tapped?
My question essentially boils down to whether 614.12 (or another rule) can check Nylea's own pip for devotion as Nylea enters the battlefield. I could see the ruling going either way. Thanks!
I think it would. Nylea will be a creature entering the battle field and so will be tapped.
@@brofst And @Delti the answer is actually NO. We can see look at the rulings on Nylea's page for a very simple answer.
1/24/2020 "As a God enters the battlefield, your devotion to its color will determine whether any replacement effects that affect creatures entering the battlefield apply to that God. Because replacement effects are considered before the God is on the battlefield, the mana symbols in its mana cost won’t be counted when determining this."
Possibly related question: If you have a devotion of red of exactly 4, and Purphoros enters the battlefield, and your opponent has Blind Obedience out, will Purphoros enter tapped?
This question was addressed in DDR#448 here: ua-cam.com/video/syBAWlScd6Q/v-deo.html
So isolated chapel comes into play untapped right?
Can you please explain how the scapeshift combo works with many lands ETB at the same time but "see" eachother ETB?
They basically look to the right and left when they enter ;-)
In Scapeshift, its a triggered ability. The lands first enter the battlefield, then they trigger Valakut. Thats why they can "see" each other.
This situation is different. It´s a Replacement effect that happens before the permanent enters the battlefield.
is that a hedron or are you just happy to see me?
Is urborg not a swamp by its own effect meaning chapel enters untapped?
Video is about Player A having Urborg and Player B playing the Isolated Chapel :)
Am I under-thinking it in that as the land is checking for what you control AS it enters and as you don't control any lands AS it enters (essentially the space between your hand and the field) that if you controlled no lands it would always enter tapped as there is nothing else to check. Now if one turn one, a player played an Isolated chapel, then an opponent played Urborg, and on their second turn they played another Isolated Chapel, that second one would check and see that there was a swamp in play and would enter untapped. (so long as it had the check as an ability)
However if any of those cards had "X effect on card type 2 ON THE BATTLEFIELD" and something checked on a condition that would be met there, then things enterting the battlefield would not have to worry about that check. So say that green enchantment had "Lands IN PLAY are 2/2 creatures, they are still lands". The lands wouldn't be creatures UNTIL they enter the field, and as such the "creatures enter tapped" wouldn't apply as they weren't creatures until after the entered.
Here's a question, that I"m pretty sure I already know the answer but curious if my reasoning is accurate. If I have Thresher Lizard (A 3/2 creature that has "..get's +1/+2 as long as you have one or fewer cards in hand) on the field, and I have two cards in hand, but one of them is Fling, and which I cast using Thresher to pay, would it be a 3/2 or a 4/4 at time of sacrifice? My logic is that it should be a 3/2 as Fling didn't leave my hand until I sacrificed for it's cost, leaving two cards in hand. (I tried to do this and we couldn't actually reach an agreement, so I gave it a 3/2)
Or would Thresher Lizard always have the +1/+2 anywhere so long as I only had one card in hand? Or would it only matter at the time of sacrifice?
Either way it's an odd interaction.
It does only matter at the time you sacrifice it. You first put Fling on the stack during step 1 of casting a spell (so it leaves your hand), then you pay the costs during step 8 of casting a spell, so at the time you sacrifice Thresher Lizard, you only have one card in your hand so it's a 4/4.
mountains enter the battlefield untapped
isnt urborg a swamp so it would enter untapped
In the final example isn't imposing sovereign a bit redundant? If the island is a creature as it enters it can't be used for mana anyway due to summoning sickness, correct?
You're not _wrong,_ but that wasn't the question, just if enters tapped. Among many interactions this can affect, not having a blocker is probably the most obvious.
woohoo! i got the answer right to the bonus question!
Wait, doesn’t Urborg make itself a Swamp?
opp controls Urborg
@@brofst That makes sense, thanks.
good soup
When I saw the miniature: why is this 4 stars? Urborg is a swamp so Isolated Chapel enters untapped
Video: Amy plays Urborg and Nick plays Isolated Chapel
Me: f*ck
Blood Moon negating "this land enters tapped" is nice to know
isnt urborg a swamp
Amy controls the Urborg, Nick is playing the Isolated Chapel.
I don’t think it is necessary for the sake of judging but it would be interesting if you could describe the wording changes necessary to allow the chapel to enter untapped with Urborg.
What is the minimal change that would allow this to work? Are these changes practical and something we could expect to see printed on a Magic card?
I see it as an exploration of MTG rules and deeper rule comprehension. I would definitely like to see you figure it out not only for this ruling but for all rulings.
Check lands, like Isolated Chapel, will always enter the battlefield tapped if you control no lands when you play it. Maybe watch through the video again. It sounds like you didn't quite grasp why it's tapped. Changes to Urborg to make Isolated Chapel untapped would have to be something ridiculously drastic, like "when Urborg enters the battlefield, each player searches up a basic and puts it on the battlefield". At that point, it's basically a different card.
All these bizarre comes-into-play problems would be completely inexistent if Wizards were just precise in terms of language: _Entering_ the battlefield is *not* the same as _being_ on the battlefield. I have never understood how a permanent can trigger its own ETB effects. Crossing the threshold is expressly different from _already _*_being in the room_*_ to begin with._