John Piper tries to rebuke Doug Wilson for being Biblical (Preachers should cry not be sarcastic)
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- Watch as John Piper turns this Ligonier Q&A into awkward setting by going after one of the panel speakers. Years later Al Mohler did the same thing at ShepCon. Always the woke guys who act this way. smh
It is funny that Piper sights Paul (who publicly rebuked Peter of all people in Galatians) to begin his warning against confrontation. That said, I think some people must resist being too timid while others must resist being too sharp-tongued. ...and I think God speaks to heart so that we all know which group we’re in.
Being too timid and claiming to be loving has gotten the church no where. We must stand firm on the scripture and be loving all at the same time
You hit me where I live, Joe. In nearly every case when the Holy Spirit comes on me I weep, and tears ran down my face when I read your post. Thank you for writing it, my brother.
I do not think that Piper here was warning against confrontation... He was talking about biblically commanded principles of HOW we are to do it.
Well said Joe
what's even funnier is how Phil's daddy Johnny Mac is partners with Piper.. hypocrites, and idolaters, every...single...one...of... you...ignorance is bliss, they say.. even on their way to hell
I agree with Doug’s overall point, but I don’t think Piper is trying to make it awkward. He’s trying to make a biblically rooted counterpoint. Doug seems very friendly about the exchange.
I have noticed that Doug Wilson is quite friendly to his critics when engaging in discussion. He has a high regard for John Piper and has mentioned him with respect many times. One of the most engaging dialogues was a 2-hour discussion with Piper and another fellow on eschatology. But Doug really thinks Biblically about what he says. One might not agree with him all times, but he has clearly thought topics through.
I have noticed that MOST of Doug's critics are ANYTHING but friendly.
Yeah, didn't really seem like an attempted rebuke at all. I thought John Piper's response was thoughtful and a wonderful addition to Doug's approach to sarcasm.
Wilson said to love like Jesus..and condemn like Jesus...thats pretty balance.
Piper means we always should be nice yet ironically in his sermons he yells more than almost anyone and said he isn't even sure he would defend his wife if an intruder broke in and was trying to rape her. The man has issues.
@@doctrinalwatchdog6268 I think it's also worth noting that Piper's son is one of the most sarcastic and angry people towards God that I've seen in a long time.
@@sarahsanzig5434 his dad's "faith" says God predestines babies to hell and informs him that if a man broke into his home to rape his wife (Abraham's mother) John's faith would not allow him to defend her or the family. Based on these things I can almost sympathize with his son, John is so messed up and his church is now going woke to boot!
@@doctrinalwatchdog6268 John Piper holds some depraved beliefs in the Lord then. How sad to have raised a son instilling that into his mind. Yes, I can see why you would almost sympathize. I did know about Piper going woke, but I just don't know how bad it is yet. I occasionally wonder if this is the great apostasy...
@@doctrinalwatchdog6268. Agreed. Piper is so emotional.
Man, is it weird that I thought both of them were on point? Piper merely "balanced" (as he said) Doug's point with some solid wisdom to help us as we try to speak truth in love. Just excellent. Not sure why the title thinks he is trying to "rebuke" Wilson. Didn't see that here.
Agreed bro 👌
Agreed.
100% agreed...
The reason for the title is merely clicks.
Great insight from both of them!
Clickbait
I kinda get what Piper was trying to say. He says that in acting we need to remember we are as reprehensible as the sinner we mock, and it is like poking while still having the board in my own eye. I think that there are Pipers and there are MacArthur's and Bauchums and Washers, we all have different gifts as the Spirit enables and gives, so where John Piper wants more tears and compassion, there are those that do, but there are also Elijahs, mocking false gods. We are all part of the body even if we are different members.
People just love hating on different preachers while further dividing the body of Christ in the process. It makes you feel good when you can point out how "bad" another Christian is.
You make good points
Assuming that telling the truth like Doug is not an act of compassion? Or presence of tears indicate that Piper's approach is motivated by love more than MacArthur's?
We are reprehensible as the sinner we mock but not in the same context. Piper mocking a false teacher is not the same sinner in that relation as the false teacher is. There needs to be proper levels of discernment. We paint with a broad brush when we ignore categories.
Crying and moving aren't gifts
@@kennethrawlinson9398 lol, I was being nice.
It grieves me to see a brother put in a bad spot in such a way. The title of the video is almost entirely wrong.
I usually don´t put such matters so bold but it really shows that you did not get what John Piper was saying.
Please listen closely to his arguments and his exact words again. He is actually commending Doug Wilson´s use of sarcasm.
He is only adding a (biblical) word of caution on how you do it.
Maybe your other videos are a lot better. I won´t judge you or this channel based on one video.
But I have to say that this video does a disservice to the truth.
Slandering people unrightouesly is the devil´s buisness and shouldn´t be ours.
This is coming from a brother in Christ who is in need of repentance everyday.
I don´t hate you.
@@martyroth2994 Piper did not say it was wrong to use sarcasm. He only said to balance it.
@@martyroth2994 Can you specifically identify what was “useless” in Piper’s appeal?
@@martyroth2994
I agree with Marty
Yes! Yes! Yes!
Piper means it when he says to Wilson, "We need you like crazy."
This is obviously from a long time ago, but these two brothers continue to this day to maintain their beautiful friendship! Piper has boldly defended his friendship with Wilson, having him speak at Desiring God conferences, etc. These brothers are actually a wonderful model for how brothers can love each other and enjoy each other without seeing eye to eye on everything!
@@martyroth2994 and Jesus wept over Jerusalem
Piper is "baffled" that some Christians think abortion is more deadly that Donald Trump's pride. (Desiring God, Oct 22) So now we're paying for abortion world wide. We have the Equality Act. We have Transgenderism force-fed to our children. Nice going, Mr. Piper.
Yep! He was wrong on Trump! He ought to know God can use any one for His purposes!
1. Piper despises abortion, to say the least
2. He correctly stated that pride would lead to death -- which, being what Scripture says, should not be controversial among us
3. Condemning Trump is no endorsement of Biden, and any society that forces Christians or anyone else to have to choose an evil, marketed as a "lesser" evil, is hardly a decent society.
@@ead630 They don't get it, they're salty he didn't vote for Trump.
@@ead630 Well, society doesn't force Christians to choose anything. Neither do pro-Trump Christians do so. So now the question is should a Christian vote for a lesser evil. To answer that, you have to ask if Trump is a lesser evil. Then if you agree that he is a lesser evil, you have to answer, is he an evil at all? What's the quantity of sin or kind of evil that defines the line between good and evil. The biblical answer is that all our righteousness is as filthy rags, and that no man is righteous no not one. Beyond that, even if we quantify sin, how are we supposed to judge the character of politicians. Politicians are masters of withholding their true nature.
I think you should vote based on probable outcome of that vote. Trump is responsible for appointing 3 Supreme Court justices who were essential in a recent supreme court case on whether churches should be allowed to meet. Religious freedom would be more restricted if he had lost. If you just sit out and don't vote for anyone, you're allowing any outcome, including one that kills more babies, restricts religious freedom in the church, classroom, and law, and perhaps includes much more rampant political corruption.
We know as Christians this earth and this country are not our home. So one could make the argument that we shouldn't be involved in civics at all. But if we try to turn our country toward righteousness, in part through our vote, we have to be willing to vote for people who are not Christians but who stand as a blockade against the greater depravity present.
Btw, I think it's totally fine to criticize the flaws of any of our leaders. When we get into that business though, we'll have a lot of condemning to do, and the priority of the church should be to turn people to Christ before demanding that they follow his statutes.
@@ead630 Oh, the other thing that made a Trump presidency not such a terrible evil, is that, at least from what I can tell, his Vice President was a genuine Christian who reflected John Piper's wish for humility and compassion, as well as Doug Wilson's wish for Christians to be willing to condemn evil things strongly, in his rhetoric. Kamala Harris is quite a contrast.
Just as biblical sarcasm can drift into fleshly trolling, biblical love can drift into fleshly simpiness. Virtue signaling comes in a variety of flavors ...
Perhaps you have a point
True. Although for the vast majority of men I think it's pretty obvious that it's way easier to drift into one more than the other.
@@christophersmith7412 And which one are you saying is way easier? I'm not sure there would be universal agreement on either one.
@@JonJaeden I would say that is it easier for more men to drift into fleshly trolling and anger than it is simpiness. Obviously that's not true for ALL men everywhere, but I would be confident to assert that it is true for the majority.
@@christophersmith7412 Yet the current condition of evangelicalism is seeker-friendly cheap grace and love-love-love that is meant to make the sinner comfortable in his sin. The current trajectory of society and the church is decidely simp.
The Title is misleading. I agree with both of them. Balance, its all about balance. I will add though its not fair to go down hard oh Mr wilson. Both have their own style. So there, Mr Piper is wrong, God uses different personalities to reach different people. Some people need Mr Wilson and Some people need Mr Piper. Praise God when the Gospel is preached. No matter the manner. However He's not rebuking, he's cautioning... which is fine. I try not to hate on preaches with whom we share the main points of the faith (Gospel issues). I LOVE MR WILSON. but i love Mr Piper too. Both seem like brothers who want to bring people to christ and do it differently. Dear brother Please do not cause division where there's no need. Please.
You mean if balance is necessary, balance is your idol and we should allow Satan to "balance" out God by giving him the Keys to Heave. Go study Dalai Lama or something.
Divisions have been happening since BEFORE Christ died, remember the Apostles.
@@einarabelc5 I don’t understand your comments.
I think the point of bringing up ‘balance’ is to refer only to the fact that God uses all kinds of men (personalities) in the spreading of the Gospel. In addition, we need to be careful in how we talk, even in disagreements that we honor the Lord. Many many times Scripture emphasizes brotherly love, certainly as much as it reminds us to be wary of false teachers. That is the balance.
Facts
@@einarabelc5 who the Hell is this
Important words from Wilson and Piper!
I think it is sad that the maker of the video try to attack Piper for a godly concern.
I couldn't understand anything Piper was saying.
I do. He clearly interpreted his point through scripture when Jesus was in the synagogue and healed a leper while the Pharisees rebuked Him for doing so. He was talking about how Jesus was angry at their (Pharisees) self righteousness/sin but at the same time having a deep grief for their lostness
@@martyroth2994 Of little value _to whom_ sir? Of little value _to whom?_
Cheers in Christ! :)
Give your tears a voice. Psalm 56:8
I love Wilson and Piper. My take away is that there are times that indignation and maybe even sarcasm are appropriate, but remember to do it carefully because our judgments are tainted by sin. We must learn to be grieved by the blindness of others, not just angry. Good stuff by both of these brothers!
Piper supports the heretical NAR.
@@TheLincolnrailsplitt
What’s nar?
@@keithwilson6060 New Apostolic Reformation. I can’t comment on whether Piper promotes it, because I have chosen not to follow his media much.
Judgement tainted by Sin. I'll remember that, Thank you!
So you love false teachers??? why.
I usually don't understand Piper.
He complicates the simplicity of the gospel.
Sometimes yes
I've tried to like him for 15 years. today I made a decision to stop fighting my gut...he's a wuss and a people-pleaser. we need war time leaders, and he's more like a wet nurse. Not positive, but I think he came out of the hippie movement genre...and it shows. I used to be a member of a Sovereign Grace church and piper/keller were quoted more than Jesus.
Well, that's Calvinism in action.
He has to be complicated concerning the gospel, because that is the nature of Calvinism!
Piper totally overlooks the fact that Paul worked so hard to call out false teachers; he was not a placater.
@Falcon
Humility in the recognition of our utter insufficiency, not some mamby pamby syrupy sweetness, which is what most people think of when they consider humility.
@@davmatheophilus159 to add to this, humility is also recognition that whatever good, wisdom or talent in us is a gift God has given not something we produced of our own accord
Don't feed the trolls.
@falcon759 Yet Paul's writings are much more aggressive than Doug Wilson's
Thanks doctrinal watchdog for posting a video of how to be courageous and exhort a
Brother in front of others in a loving and firm way. ( I know this wasn’t you intention, but thanks anyway)
Even though I clicked on this video (just to see if it was true), I can whole-heartedly say that I am so sick and tired of all these Christian "watchdog" channels. The disagreement between Wilson and Piper is so insignificant compared to the things in the Bible that actually qualify as heresy.
How about you people report on things that actually disqualify preachers. Many channels are founded on the fact that the channel creator just doesn't "like" a certain preacher. These people make channels and always have an axe to grind with godly men that have a slightly different theology. You're just stirring up trouble and causing division in the church.
Sûre, apparently many assume that the unity of Christ's Church imply same point of view on all doctrinal and pastoral issues.
Quite suprisingly acts 15 vs 6 - 20 shows that there existed some disagreements that even caused debates vs7 after which they reached an agreement.
And we clearly see the mind set of their discussions is just totally opposite to that of many of these "watchdog" UA-cam channels.
In Romans 14 we clearly see Paul's approach on controversial questions related to minor doctrines.
Even though he states the clear doctrinal fact about meals and sabbath he still says in vs 10, "why do you criticise or pass judgment on your brother ?"
I believe many of these " watchdogs " channels will get an answer closely related to their ego or deep wish to be seen as the one who is right, instead of Glorifying God in all of their lives.
Amen! Issues like trying to make holy what the Father has deemed unholy by replacing the Father's set apart times with the traditions of men like; a sun day sabbath, easter and xmas.
Umm, perhaps you should think a little more, here's the guy's son, a couple of decades later:
ua-cam.com/video/-0RmDQdeHww/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/z3ZrpSyWTT8/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/XCLMn0_nzKs/v-deo.html
@@arnaudkt2260 Umm, don't you know human nature?
@@einarabelc5 What is that to me? The Bible never promised that kids will be saved because the parents taught them about God.
My dad is a Christian and raised me to be a Christian. There was a point in my life when I was about as far away from Christ as you could possibly get. Later on, I became a Christian. Your post is just gossip. It's not an argument.
I had tons of people praying for me, and then I came to Christ. Do the same for Abraham Piper. Stop "spreading the word" about Abraham and start praying for the man.
Please let me jump in here and just say by reading many of the posts, that there appears to be several who thinks a smart mouth makes you a smart person. It is very deceiving. A little humility is good for the soul. Amazing we read in the Scripture that God draws near the humble. I don't know if John Piper is the many things that he has been called on here, but there is blindness as well as deafness if a person cannot hear the wisdom in what was said here from both men. May we all clothe ourselves with humility.
I think the amount of reviling against John Piper in this comment section makes his point for him.
@@christophersmith7412 How is this reviling Piper? What?
@@johnsaxon5154 Read through the comment sections. Personal attacks against Piper's character, mockery and some people straight up calling him a wolf.
@@christophersmith7412 He's getting mocked because what he said is so flimsy. The church is being assaulted and JPiper insists on us being nice.
Think of the effect "Jesus was sarcastic and we ought to imitate Him." could have on a certain kind of listener. I think he means to safeguard against being bold in the wrong spirit.
Piper called Doug a genius and clever. Biting and accusatory though. Piper seemed rattled. His seeker sensitivity was showing. Maybe something a little more. I appreciated this so much.
It's so interesting to see how the subtle differences between these men so many years ago have grown into completely separate camps with practically irreconcilable ministry methods. Doug and John were only slightly different several years back, now it seems that they figure head different movements.
I think it's instructive in how emotionalism can corrupt your teaching and preaching if you let it override clear-headed thinking.
Once you get drawn into making emotional judgements, instead of relying on scripture, you run into all sorts of problems. One of the main ones being that any argument, no matter how attenuated from the Bible, will carry the day if it appeals to your emotions.
It seems like it is only a matter of time before Piper will support gay marriage.
@@mrhandsrevenge why do you say that? Any evidence that he's leaning that way?
Interesting and quite true. Each of these guys there then, now would not do a conference today. Not just because Sproul died.
Mohler and piper maybe... But barely. Wilson and Mohler? Nope. Piper and Wilson?
Sproul and Piper? No. Sproul and Wilson? I guess maybe
Strange times to see the sifting in the world and church
Separate, maybe. IrREconcilable? I have not seen lack of conciliation.
Cheers in Christ! :)
My prior exalted estimation of Piper dropped to ZERO upon hearing his response. Kudos to Doug Wilson! May he, to GOD, practice what he proffered.
I agree with Doug - If we are "Filled with the Spirit" or "Spirit Lead", and the Spirit prods us to a point of TRUTHFULL anger, God will clean up the rough edges that our humanism messes up. He did for Peter many times.
I agree with them both. Ever been "filled with the Spirit" and had that holy experience immediately curdle into the flesh as if out of nowhere? Moses made the mistake of being angry for God in the wrong way and it cost him the promised land. While I agree that we are led by the Spirit and can exhibit the character of Christ thereby, it doesn't take much to pull us back into the flesh at a moment's notice. All it takes is one little thought left unchecked. Being Spirit led is not a solid state of being, it is a prayerful and watchful discipline that is maintained moment by moment. I think Piper is offering wisdom to anyone too confident that he stands, lest he should fall.
@@natjackson4880 Mostly agreed, we think it cost Moses the Promised land. That's our humaness thinking, which is lightyears behind God. So in HIS soverign design maybe God planned that the story of Moses remaining in the wilderness was for future children to realize that God's soverign will will not be thwarted, or what ever. Moses did not pine for it. Like I said, and you concurred being "Spirit Filled is a moment by moment dependency on God. I can't second guess that history. I do know that Jesus Christ hated sin and got very emotional about it like calling out the Scribes etc, or throwing out the money robbers in the temple. So I think there is a lot of pent up anger that God is wishing we would use both in the Church and outside the Church.
I used to like Doug Wilson a lot. Now, I’m not so sure. Common trend I see in him, he is very self-justifying and arrogant. He is selective in his theological reasoning, and like Piper pointed out, he is not very balanced. Balance is key. If we balanced our lives the way Christ balanced his (which was the pretense of Doug’s answer) there was far more tenderness, patience, kindness, gentleness, etc. than sarcasm and biting criticism. Pastors should mourn the brokenness of people, btw. If they don’t then they shouldn’t be in ministry at all.
It’s been years since this conference and I’ll just ask…
Who today is closer to biblical theology when it comes to Abortion, gathering to worship, and State sponsored pastoring.
It is clear not John.
And this is the result:
ua-cam.com/video/z3ZrpSyWTT8/v-deo.html
You forgot pacifism.
"Doug Wilson proclaiming Jesus Christ consistently for decades"
This kind of personal correction between brothers should be happening in private. It would be different if they didn't know each other, but they are friends and can easily correct each other in private. I love Piper, but he did this one wrong.
Piper is not the best
I like your stuff Colin, but I’m not with you on this one. This is a public forum and a public discussion on these thoughts is understood before hand. I just see two different brothers giving their input on a specific topic. Which seems to be the purpose of these forums.
I agree!
I disagree. Piper was not rebuking Doug, but adding a warning to the people who were hearing Doug. Piper is absolutely right, in that for someone like Doug, who is "gifted" in knowing how to use sarcasm, most of us, if we are not careful, are likely to be sarcastic in the flesh. Piper's point was, if we are to see an opportunity to be sarcastic, we better be sure we know how to at the same time, show the love of Christ. Otherwise, they will be reacting to your flesh, instead of being convicted by the Spirit.
I think the fact that Doug gave a teaching there and then in public to the church is justification for Piper's public and immediate response, especially since he was in the appropriate position to do so on the panel. He didn't counter what Doug said, but tempered it with a word of caution. I don't disagree with either men. They both got it right. The collective wisdom from both men in this instance is good, biblical counsel.
I’m not always a fan of Piper, but I’m totally with him here. Balance is something severely lacking in the church. I don’t take his comments as critical of Doug Wilson at all, just an acknowledgement of his skill with sarcasm and wit and a plea to not take it too far. It’s something I struggle with myself.
I understand it better in that light. Because others who aren’t as skilled as Doug in wielding such a sharp sword can do some serious damage if it’s done in malice or carelessness. And of course, I don’t think Doug is above a friendly reminder, iron sharpens iron. And I think he welcomes that especially from Piper I can tell he respects him.
Me also.
The great theologian Nick Saban has said: " Passion always looks like aggression to the unmotivated." Piper seems unmotivated here and jumped to accusations of un biblical anger. Pointing out a lack of sense, or bad thinking should not indicate anger. Even so, it may be the anger of the unmotivated that needs curtailing.
He's making the point that we must not be mean for being mean's sake. There has to be grief over injustice at the root of boldness.
Roll Tide
is he a theologian? or an american football coach?
I heard no such accusation sir. Can you perhaps provide a timestamp?
Cheers in Christ! :)
What a prophetic statement by Doug Wilson around 6:43, "but I think it would be a graver danger than to sit back and get it wrong that way." It is because of how "nice" and "tolerant" most of us have been all these years that we are in the cultural mess with which we find ourselves. Instead of tolerating sin, may we find the courage to denounce it, speaking the truth in love.
And I also completely understand what John Piper is saying.
Piper is wrong.
Piper showed some great biblical wisdom here.
No he didn’t, it was just pietistic drivel.
@@puritanbob So how long have you been trained by Captain Doug?
@@BigG99 Why do you call Doug 'Captain'?
I think Wilson is correct, but Piper never addressed what he actually said. Typical Piper: put and add words and then critique (the made-up words) to promote his position. SMH.
That is a very astute observation
@ardala jackson John piper is a false teacher
John Pipers point was a good and fair one, but it was a rebuke of Doug, however subtle. The rebuke should’ve been done in private. It would’ve been far more effective, honouring to Doug and biblical to have done it that way.
I watched the video, I lost interest in what JPiper was saying, I don't even know what he was saying.
His full of poop
Exact my thought i don’t even know piper wants to say lol
Is that his fault or yours? He made a clear, biblical argument.
No piper, let's not "balance" falsehood with Truth.
Is that what he said?
except it's not falsehood. It's a different angle of the same truth that Doug Wilson was touching on.
@@lanadoesathing lol a not so good perspective.
Wilson: Sees a problem, recognizes he’s not Christ and still pursues handling the problem to the best of his ability as himself with talents given him by God, as a sinner, while recognizing he is justified in Christ alone but the problem is attacked and dealt with using the word of God, not his imitation.
Piper: Sees a problem and begins to see how he can manipulate his own emotions and the other person in an attempt to appear like Jesus while not actually addressing the problem 🙄
Is every man a hand? Is every man an eye? Do each have the same abilities and gifts?
I see truth and the desire to please and follow Christ in each man's response. We are all DIFFERENT members of the same body. The church would do well to remember that.
You missed John Piper's point, and he had a good one. Paul calls for the same spirit in believers, and uses Piper's same reasoning. It continues on and is worth reading, but the gist of it is found in Titus 3:1-5:
"Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy."
Channels like this trying to find dirt where there is no dirt.
What do you mean?
@@doctrinalwatchdog6268 first of all this group. They were disagreeing in love. As the church should. The church doesnt always agree with each other on so many topics.
Second you make it sound like Piper is a bad guy. Some part of the body of Christ is to use intelligence. Other parts of the body of Christ is used to show love. There is nothing wrong with this conversation.
@@mcr5577 all pastors are supposed to show intelligence. All pastors are supposed to show love.
@@awesley yes but not all pastors are on the same level with each other. Some are smarter than the other and by grace they can still have a loving debate because the one who is smarter will lovingly hold back and try not to intellectually shame the other pastor. You get what im saying ?
@@mcr5577 The differences in the knowledge are not quantum leaps apart because the source of revelation is the same.
There is no either or. The office of a pastor is a job which requires both necessary skills. If someone lacks one then they are in the wrong job. James 3:1.
Good points all - good men (broken men to be sure - but men who love Christ and who seek to deal well with His Word) who love each other - presenting arguments and challenging each other with points we can all take on and ponder.
mmmm - if that was awkward - we should do more awkward.
We can point to what we don't like about anyone but being open to their ideas, taking them in and processing them before deciding whether to or which parts to take on - in the light of scripture - this is the approach I want, for me.
This looks like it was recorded ages ago
That line at the end was perfect😆 Doug always hits it straight .
I think both Wilson and Piper make credible points here. This is why we all need each other. "Iron sharpens iron" (Prov. 27:17).
Man, I agree with Mr. Piper. I can so easily be angry with injustice. I can so easily put people down who are the perpetrators. Because of that, IT IS SO DIFFICULT to distinguish between my flesh and the Spirit in those emotions. I would rather I don't SIN in my anger, than be worried that I responded to injustice with too much gentleness. Cause it is not possible for me to do that. Are we angry? Or are we grieved? I can trust God in my grief, but my anger clouds my vision. Maybe it doesn't for Mr. Wilson.
It’s pretty simple really… Doug Wilson is simply very spiritually mature and masculine.
I have big problems with John Piper but there’s nothing wrong with what he said here. Sin is an important factor to keep in mind as a difference between us and Jesus in trying to imitate Him. I’ve never had that thought directly but the thought I have had is that Jesus was omniscient and I’m not-He knew what was in a man, He knew the right timing, and I don’t. I must be more patient, I must be slower to speak, and I must be slower to act if I’m going to be faithful to judge things correctly.
Please state the problems you have with piper?
If all scripture is breathed from God, than I suppose 2 Timothy 2: 24-26 would be a biblical rebuttal to his understanding of emulating Jesus.
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."
The title is a click bait, let's strive for honesty
I am glad for Piper's willingness to make things awkward to bring a balance to what Doug Wilson said. The fact is, both are right. And Piper is admitting that. There needed to be a word about tears there. And Piper's example of Jesus' anger and grief at hardness of heart was a very good example. Jesus was a man of sorrows, over those with whom he was angry.
I think what Doug said was already balanced enough, the problem is that American evangelicalism is filled to the brim with Piper’s pietistic thinking to the point where we often are unwilling to call a spade a spade because we are too busy trying to be tender and soppy eyed.
@@puritanbob Pipers balance might not have been for Doug"s benefit, sir, but for mine. Cheers in Christ! :)
A truly great yet truly simple and necessary teaching refuting seeker sensitive teaching from Doug and Piper immediately tries to use seeker sensitive teaching to refute it.
I did not hear an attempt at refutation. I heard a complimentation. Cheers in Christ! :)
I’m not really sure why people are irritated with Piper I can’t find wrong with the things he said
He’s basically saying be careful because we have sin in us and Jesus didn’t it’s easy for us to do things for selfish reasons
If you don’t like Piper to begin with you’ll find any reason to rip him
That’s exactly how I feel about this video.
Because if you have sin, your love and tenderness will go sour just as quickly as judgment. Look at seeker sensitive churches as an example of how tenderness goes too far. Saying one is more dangerous than the other is stupid: different people have different problems.
Men seeking to please men by entertaining them...
“Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,”
Titus 3:1-5 ESV
Here we are in 2021 and Douglas Wilson is where he is doctrinally....and Piper is where he is.
Where are them?
@@aleguitarra same, i wanna know lol
However I believe that Piper is more moderate leaning currently, and often times that will put them in the position to accept damnable teachings and ungodly forms of "worship" or service.
I hardly know Douglas at all, so I can't speak for him, but I'm assuming he's the opposite, by the way the commentary contrasted the two.
@@aleguitarra Piper, his gospel is compromised with racism and woke heresy, compliance with the culture etc. Wilson is standing against this culture and all the racist heresy coming into the church. This is where they stand. Thus, Wilson is vindicated.
@@DaneKristjan So Pipper is not against this culture?
My english is basic... sorry.
I don´t agree with Pipper because I think Calvinism isn´t Biblica, but i thought Pipper was someone who confront this present culture...
@@aleguitarra doesn't appear that way from his desire to go along with it
I don't see what's the big deal here. Just bros in Christ disagreeing.
The very thing that Piper did is the very thing that is wrong with pastors today. They want to balance everything not realizing that what they are actually doing is "balancing" it to death. Pastors (and all Christians) must be sober in the way we speak but we must not take away the weight and force behind truth. What Wilson said here was spot on and needed no balancing. He was gracious in receiving Piper's words as he should be but they were not needed at all.
Both men have a point. I am naturally sarcastic and dry witted and often feel that I would benefit from a little more humility and compassion. It's all about balance. In my humble opinion, somewhere between Piper and Wilson is a good place to be. These two men of God occupy the extremities in this issue and I don't gravitate towards either of them. Everyone has their own God given character and should strive to make use of it in the most God honouring way possible. The church isn't Borg afterall lol.
For everything there is a season... a time to weep and a time to laugh (Ecc 3:1...4). This was not awkward nor was it a rebuke. It was pointing out that while sarcasm is a necessary and beautiful tool for communicating truth, it is incomplete without tears. A sarcastic statement is memorable and cuts straight to the point. It brings conviction if accompanied by the Holy Spirit. However, it does not, by itself, communicate love. And when someone you love is in sin, tears are the response. Mock their foolishness or they'll never listen. Weep for their brokenness or they'll never care.
I think you really understood and summarized both speakers' points the best I've seen here.
I especially like your "slogan", "Mock their foolishness or they'll never listen; weep for their brokenness or they'll never care." Sarcasm distances oneself from the matter at hand to a degree, (and not that it is inherently bad to do so, it can aid in objectivity, to a point) but, as emotional beings, it's important to show the tears because that emotional connection will grip the person and make them take (hopefully corrective) action. The sarcasm gets their attention, the tears direct them.
In 2 corinthians 2, Paul says this:
“For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.”
This he said after the church in Corinth received his corrections in 1 Corinthians.
This shows that Paul always corrected with humility and gentleness. I personally feel that I cannot use sarcasm to correct others without having vicious or arrogant intentions in my heart.
For those who have a problem with how Doug Wilson started with harsh rebuke and ended with exhortation to love should be reminded to read Isaiah, including Mrs Sproul.
The seeker-sensitive, man pleasing culture can be forgiven for not knowing how the Prophets spoke in times of trouble; but for Christians to forget the Prophets just proves how right Doug was.
We seem to always look for the dirt. I admit, I clicked hoping for some drama, to my shame. What I found instead was great encouragement from both men, who respect each other and love each other. Piper, especially, showed a great love and kindness toward Wilson. He is not speaking over Wilson, and he is not patronizing or sarcastic or mean. Rather he is balancing the topic to cover an area that Wilson did not.
There is no issue, no malice or hatred, no rebuke. The fact remains, the goal of the Christian is live the way Jesus did, both in love and tenderness as well as anger and frustration. We also must realize that we are sinners and do not measure up to Christ, and so apology, and great care must be taken in our endeavours to live the way Christ did.
I dont fault our brother for what he said, I don't even disagree with this segment.
What breaks my heart is to see where John Piper is going now....
What do you mean?
@@hannahklunk6670 i mean what John piper is saying in this clip I dont disagree with, my criticism is more subtle; there's alot of context behind what I said, I cant go into all of it, but for reference, if you have followed Piper for the past few year it is easy see how he has adopted the language of social talking point, and the political main stream. Read his article on the last election and compare it to say... Doug Wilson. Easy to see who is changing.
In other issues; his choice to endorse Beth Moore, and the broader charismatic movement has hit close to home since even my brethren have been lead down that path. I think John Piper is better man than I, nevertheless we must stand firm.
I've heard RC say he didn't know if he was going to spend eternity in heaven . Isn't calvinism great?
Post the link
@@eagleclaw1179at about 1:25. ua-cam.com/video/QvON6g2H_Qs/v-deo.html
Totally agree with Piper, I don’t usually see grief or sadness from those who make rebuking a lifestyle. There does seem to be a sense of human elevation when you put others down for their sins without any love or care for the soul that is sinning.
The point of rebuke is to bring a brother back into the salvation Christ brings not to simply be angry at them for a sin they have been committing. I think that kind of anger is reserved for God alone since only He can know whether someone has hope for salvation or will remain condemned.
They’re both on point. Be sarcastic and gentle, and be careful to not sin while you do it
I'm with Piper on this one. Wilson's view is more aligned with the "fire and brimstone" of these street preachers, and I rarely find them effective. The bible spends an inordinate amount of time talking about tenderness, love, patience etc etc.. it doesn't really talk at length about how cutting we should be.
I like fire and brimstone. Different strokes. Today, there are too many milquetoast pastors who preach only love and lollipops, which just so happens to be the safe route in today's watered down evangelical church. Wilson's style is a breath of fresh air
@@LM-mq2pj Fair enough
I think time has shown that the road Piper was walking down back then was a road with compromise in the distance....and he's now arrived (or is arriving). Wilson didn't go down that road.
What compromise is that? Cheers in Christ! :)
@@zapazap basically Piper has shown he's woke-leaning. It's sad.
@@spitfireap77 Again, what compromise was (or is anticipated ti be) made? Cheers! :)
Doug's view is very strong and Piper is so cautious to clarify how to apply those imitating christ's ways. they're both necessary for a whole doctrine. we need to be godly radical in a wholly biblical way. without these mutual exhortations any of us is possibly to be a modern pheraisse or unbiblical soft evangelical Christians.
Agreed. This is why I always listen to a wide variety of preachers. We need that we’ll roundedness so we don’t fall into extremes.
I never thought if as Piper expressed it, and found it very illuminating
I like Piper’s heart here. We’re all needed in this Body. Love y’all.
Is it true what Piper says? Is anger much more dangerous emotion, than gentleness and meekness...?
In an acute sense, yes.
Seems a good discussion to me. Especially today. We need to know how to balance these things. Do we believe Jesus exercised self-control? I certainly do! After all, self-control is one of the fruit of the Spirit.
I don't believe Doug Wilson needs anyone to defend him from John Piper, as the title of this video except would suggest. Wilson drew his comments from scripture, that is certain, Piper too, drew his comments out from scripture. There IS a place for balance, for self-control. Let's not engage in championing one man of God over the other. Let's spend our time discerning that question Wilson raised, "What would Jesus do?" That was the whole point and it surely deserves consideration, even debate. So, I suppose my issue, and the reason for my comment is the concern about the lede or title of this video as though Piper has tried to school Wilson, so to speak. This was a discussion and I was happy to hear the discussion, weigh it, and understand we should be weighing, as believers, everything we do in Christ's name. We are representatives, royal ambassadors, if you will. We each have our part to serve in the body. Let's not cut off the foot to honor the hand or vice versa. Let's just have ears to hear and pray the Holy Spirit will guide us into truth.
The Piper argument is not cognizant of John the Baptist, whose discourse was the same as that of the sinless Christ, and so much so that some thought he was John come up from the dead.
Doug is not only a Pastor but a man for our times. He is a social commentator that helps the Church think rightly about much of foolishness that is in our culture today.
Man, what an amazing moment of honesty and bravery from Dr. Piper! Seriously, it took guts to say what he did. Still, I don't know if what he's asking for is always possible. Namely, I'm not sure that every preacher will carry the same temperament. For me, and this is just for me, I would push back on Piper and say that he might be making personality differences sinful, when they're not! sins are sinful. Therefore, I believe Doug's response to what was itself, a questioned laden with irony, was nothing short of a clinic on surgical truth.
Doug’s answer is solid and biblical. Piper doesn’t like to condemn hearsay in the modern American evangelical church. He doesn’t understand that these seeker sensitive Pastors are ravenous wolves.
Wolves eat seekers.
I dont think jp is wrong🤷♂️ God is god which gives him the right to be angry with people and even sarcastic. Because we are not its hyprocritical in a sense, because we are just as bad or foolish, we need for our anger to be turned to compassion and sorrow…but even so, doug has some good points
James 1:20
👍
Gotta say: I think John Piper is right, here. The deep care and conviction that JP is talking about must be present with--motivating, really--the anger and bite. Truly, all things must be done out of the love of God. His love cannot be compartmentalized away from his anger. They together at once express His heart. Be angry with righteous anger, birthed from the love of God.
Be slow to anger but when you do you have to be angry at false teachings and teachers!
Actually Piper was very biblical and on point.
Not only prove it, but scripture defends Piper’s exact reasoning as well. Starting at Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. 3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy…
@@ethannickerson1901 💯
@@ethannickerson1901
There is no biblical expectation of humility and gentleness with gross error and deception. The Apostles always attacked heretics in the harshest terms possible. We see this clearly in Galatians, 2 Peter, Jude etc...
Pipers argument is born out of a certain physchological disposition that is hyper introspective and self critical not any clear biblical foundation.
This is extremely prophetic and really illustrates the divide in ministry philosophy between a condemnation of biblical polemics and an embrace of biblical polemics.
The fruit of which today is evident in their disciples.
It would be good to know when this was.
Judging from Piper’s hideous tie, I would guess early 2000’s
Piper is emotionally slippery and manipulative. He may not be a heretic, but he paves the way for them
Fake news.
@@nathanhunt6208 It's easy to see.. Piper is pathetic
Easy there your holiness 😆
@@mikeysilva4499 Not at holy as you, apparently lol
@@indigatorveritatis7949 Ya, nice comeback Caiphas
Piper went wrong here with his arrogance. You might not pick up on it throughout his whole speech, but just because he did a good job masking it, does not mean those of us with discernment missed it. A humble person can use sarcasm much differently than an arrogant person can use sarcasm… And the fruit of each is different. That is why Piper disagrees… Because he’s coming from a place of arrogance.
The video title is slander. Stop attacking a man who's just sharing his perspective.
When Paul said "Awake sleeper and arise from the dead", woke-ness was not what he had in mind.
John Piper has been getting more and more woke over the years and he's full blown sjw in 2021. His definition of "gospel" will result in setting the money changer's tables back up, should he find they've been disturbed by sarcastic believers.
I think that we are so trained to think like John Piper that we don't see that he is compromising. I support Doug Wilson.
"If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be damned" - Paul "May your silver perish with you" - Peter "Come now, you rich, cry, howling over your miseries which are coming upon you" - James “You men-stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears" - Stephen Acts 7:51.
Piper needs to spend less time worrying about Doug Wilson and more about his son Abraham.
Title: John Piper tries to rebuke Doug Wilson for being biblical.
John, very politely: I would just wave a little yellow flag... and I think we need you like crazy!
I love brother John. It's so sad to see believers turn on believers over disagreements or different point of views. Piper is solid!
Amen!
I didn't see this as a rebuke but more of two pastors going through the nuanced ways to live for Christ that are not simple or easy
@@shawn4692 ya
i think Piper is sinfully wrong about his liberalism (not limited to politics) and i would leave the church if he was the pastor. however, based on what i know about him, i think he is absolutely a brother and not at all disqualified from the role of pastor as the Bible outlines. i certainly don't think he's a heretic. It is disgusting to me how so many people, reformed and not, calvinist and arminian, etc, especially on youtube, that go from simply disagreeing to becoming obsessed with what seems like an idol of their 'hyper doctrine' and make it their hobby to go after anyone who they disagree with and call them a heretic or false teacher. how that almost always revolves around celebrity pastors and teachers. just the very title of this youtube channel is alarming. as if the person who came up with it has the ultimate authority on doctrine and cannot himself get it wrong, bold claim. to go after disagreements or even read into things such as what was shown in this video and drive wedges everywhere IN ORDER TO SUIT AN AGENDA. it's childish and worldly and in most cases i've seen the person doing the 'calling out' is all too satisfied with their own faith 'performance'.
@@bjornegan6421 I definitey don't agree with liberalism, but I'm not sure that I'd leave a church over it. That said, I agree with you completely. Its sad that people (Such as whoever runs this channel) mislead THOUSANDS! This channel has over 4k subs, I believe? It's insanity and heretical in and of itself.
See the veritas forum interview with Tim Keller, where he puts the "depends on what the meaning of is, is" formula on full display. No one's going to nail him down.
I don’t think we can be like Jesus in the way Doug was implying we can. Jesus did what he did because he is a perfect judge and could read the minds and hearts of men. That’s why when we judge we have to be careful and do it with humility. They are both right in my opinion.
Ok so can we do it like Paul then or John the Baptist?
I’m willing to submit myself to my own sarcastic judgements. In fact, I’m easily twice as hard on myself as I ever am on others. When I make a snarky remark, I assure you that the same comment is going back to me and harsher.
Such a weird title and description. If you can't see the truth in Piper's balancing exhortation then you have some deep issues. That's not intended as a mean statement.
I find it horrible, absolutely horrible that a video like this has been put together to slander Christian ministers who have a serious discussion. Piper was right in what he said.
Yes he is
He was not. Picking and choosing which of Jesus' characteristics to emulate is greatly unwise. Piper keeps the innocent as doves but loses the wise as serpents, and wisdom is known by her children
I think Doug made a really good point
Exactly, who is this domesticated Christ!? The Kingdom will come with a severe rebuke.
Both men made excellent points. A good discussion. Let each man proceed according to the faith the Lord has given him.
Thank you Jesus for every branch of Christ.
Amen.
Piper is right except that he assumes Wilson comes from a place of anger. He may or may not be right, but can't assume that.
I heard no such assumption. I heard an addendum for the benefit of those like me who need it. Cheers! :)
I commend BOTH of them. If Doug can warn, so can John. And I think he did it with tact and tenderness.
People in the comments need to watch out... If your going to critique Piper, refute his interpretation of Christ's attitude, or your just bashing Christ.
Hearing what both of these men say what they said, my response to both points is... yes. Yes.
Is that rc sproul on this panel. It looks like it to me.
Piper he lost me last year after comments he made abortion.
He is arrogant.
He is not arrogant. Not in the least. His abortion argument is not that abortion isn't sin, he just pointed out that everyone is voting based on abortion and are unwilling to look at the downsides of the opposing side.
Sorry he lost me. Having a rude President as piper called President Trump who is pro life is nothing, when piper thinks its ok as a Christian to vote for the opposite political party who advocate the murder of babies the murder of full term babies and the selling of their body parts for money. Babies created in Gods image.
This is wrong and evil.
@@lee-annebarrett366 Piper never said its ok to vote for that party. He was just talking about the downsides of trumpism.
Here is something I wrote Piper today: "John, you say it is both baffling and presumptuous to assume that pro-abortion policies kill more people than pride. I have asked you, repeatedly for clarification. How does this pride kill? And you say it is baffling. How are you baffled when I have told you the precise methods of how the unborn are executed? And then you issue your tour de force: you say it is actually presumptuous of us to even think abortion is deadlier than pride. Can you believe it? In one fell swoop you insulted every thinking prolifer! I was so upset with your use of that term that I had to look it up. Was there some nuance I was missing? Nope. Presumptuous: “failing to observe the limits of what is permitted or appropriate.” What are you telling the prolife community? That taking into account the huge numbers of deaths by abortion and then thinking that it could possibly be worse than deaths-by-pride is not allowed? Not permitted? With that statement you threw a bomb right in the middle of the prolife community. I’m nonplussed. Speechless. Once again, I ask you, no, I beg of you: tell us the exact mechanism of death by which pride kills. (And where are the bodies?)"
I think that Pastor Doug was the one actually providing the balanced view of Jesus’s demeanor and actions at the most appropriate times. Please do not misunderstand me because I have learned from Pastor Piper as well. As a matter of fact, I believe that as true followers of Christ, being born again, we all start from a place of love by default now that the Love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Although, we have the proclivity towards sin and anger, we can’t handle a bag of snakes with kid gloves, nor do we want to portray Jesus in a manner not in keeping with his character. I see and hear it everyday…everybody’s talking about love when the majority doesn’t even know what true love is. The world’s definition of love wreaks of weakness in sound thought while displaying an over abundance of emotions. They want us to conform to their standards as we passively acquiesce to their ideology of what a Christian should be and do. If we don’t, then we’re not loving. That’s not the same love we’ve been given by the Holy Spirit. In my estimation, the Scriptures balances out our personalities and idiosyncrasies as we carry out the Great Commission. I also find that the Gospel of Christ offends the sensibilities of people no matter whether you’re presenting with teary eyes and a smile or pursed lips and a scowl. But, that’s why we’re supposed to examine our own hearts before we venture to touch another’s. Blessings to all!
Who knew that In 2021 one would be a total failure and revealed as a Wolf, and the other would be faithful. God grant me the grace to be faithful like Doug.