I don't see many people ditching KOW for TOW. Sure lots of people from the KOW player base, myself included, will give TOW a try but will they not play KOW anymore? Unlikely! KOW is too good to be binned in favour of the new shiny game. If anything I see it going the other way. After the nostalgia has worn off and GW continues to hike prices people will probably be leaning towards Mantic.
One thing that might also help is that GW has been bungling up the release of Old World. They had nothing available hours after the official release and most stores won't stock up until the 16th. I was kinda curious about old world, but not even being able to get the books turned me off. Instead I looked towards to some ambush sets and now am launching into a full twilight kin army. Availability is huge.
This is also a major factor, you are right. I didn't really want to get into criticizing the whole Old World itself. The fact that only 2 armies were made available at release, and that even these were quickly unavailable, means that the wider community is stuck waiting. Either waiting a little restocks of these 2 armies, or waiting a long time for each of the next armies on the way, which may themselves have their own stocking issues. This is fine for people who already have armies and miniatures to play Old World, but new people will be left without any recourse but to wait... or try other companies! I am sure all the rank and flank suppliers out there, from Kings of War to A Song of Ice and Fire and various 3D print ranges, will be doing very well this year.
GW has had logistical (and pricing) problems for years because they insist on running a limited manufacturer operation out of England - despite over half of their market being situated in North America. Warhammer IPs are the most popular they've every been and GW is juggling more balls than ever, yet they still refuse to increase their manufacturing capabilities. Worse still, there's been a worrying trend of GW attempting to push more and more business towards their online store and away from third-party retailers. At lot of people buy all their stuff from their LGS and GW appears increasingly to want a bigger and bigger slice of their pie.
@@spnked9516 I would remind people here of something that Elon Musk as iterated many times. Now you might not like the guy for his personal or political opinions but let's leave that aside for a moment. For many years now in multiple of his businesses the man has been involved in a lot of physical products. One thing he allways says is the hardest part of every one of his businesses is moving beyond a prototype and getting regular production going. We might be underestimating how hard it is for GW to get more production off the ground seeing as how many IP's they handle. Maybe getting more factories and Printers going is just too risky. Maybe it puts you 2 unpopular release cycles away from bankrupcy.
I mean so far you can't even buy core units outside of the starter boxes. Like all the people I see playing TOW either had old armies or printed new ones and pirated the rules, because they can't even get a hand on those.
It's not even just the end times, the way they treat their customers was disgusting and not only that they were shocking to deal with if you were small games shop owner during 8th edition. The salt still flows through me! Though admittedly after the dire position they were in during AoS1 they changed massively, they had to because the AoS1 release has to go down as one of the most embarrasing releases in all of Wargaming History. The interaction they have with the community now is much improved, they even send out lots of free stuff to social media people (yes free marketing for them but it's still good for the community too)
@@lordy6666 it's a very different GW for sure, so let's hope they can make TOW work, and get rank and flank out to all the uninformed 😂 and oh yeah... That first AoS without points... What? Why???
@@lordy6666In my opinion there is nothing good in sending free stuff to social media people because these social media people way too often just celebrate blindly what GW sends them. They are nothing but influencers making people buy GWs shit. Whenever you know that some blog, channel etc. owner is getting promoted with stuff from GW you should always take care of what they try tell/sell you. Nothing good in here for the community, in my opinion.
I've been playing Warhammer since the edition with Lizardman vs Bretonnian starter set. I am finally breaking up with GW. Just going to finish what I own. I brought a box of goblin flee bag riders and painted that up a few years ago. My mate got the Northern alliance mega army box set and I am still deciding on a fraction to choose. I cannot wait to play this game and support this awesome company.
If there is one critique of Kings of War is that there are too many factions to choose from! As always the best advice is to pick an army that aesthetically speaks to you, because painting all those minis will need that enthusiasm. For me this was Forces of the Abyss (I love those maniacal demonic infantry) and Goblins (also maniacal grinning infantry... clearly I have a thing). Welcome to the Kings of War community!
I've basically never seen anyone playing AoS in Australia. Someone told me a few years ago that at Australia's biggest wargame comp there were more AoS players than 40k players entered. Seemed hard to believe since I'd never seen anyone play it at all, at that time. I've tried Conquest. It plays fine. The models are insanely expensive though. My friend got the starter box second hand, I helped him assemble and we tried it out. Thought yeah, ok, I might get into this. Saw the prices of models and bailed. Was similar to GW prices which was way too high.
AoS is reasonably popular around Victoria, with certain clubs and shops heavily invested. And at CanCon AoS remains a major event. I tried for a little but it's not the way I want to play fantasy. If I want skirmish I'll play 40k. As for conquest, I did think of trying some models for proxy. There's very beautiful models in their range, but the cost really is prohibitive
Rank and flank has existed for decades before WHFB or KoW. Historical miniature wargaming has a wide variety of rules for a wide variety of periods and armies centered around line warfare.
Good video. I share these same feelings about my rank & flank game of choice, A Song of Ice & Fire. I see The Old World as an opportunity to bring folks into the R&F genre. The Old World will hopefully serve as a gateway to these other (better) R&F games.
Exactly right. We all benefit. A Song of Ice and Fire at least had the intellectual property of a Game of Thrones to help get it some exposure, but the overall gameplay element of having GW back in rank and flank will help. Even if someone wants Lannister-style Empire army, they will fine ASOIAF minis better than old Empire models.
If one likes huge armies, KoW does it better. If one likes balanced rules, KoW does it better. If one prefers lower cost minis, KoW does it better. But GW does have a more developed lore and some lines have better minis and they're great at FOMO and continual supply of hotness. To each their own.
I agree with some of your points, but not the balanced rules. KOW has balance as it has uniformity; you really can't individualize your units, it's close to a game of chess where you buy set pieces w/o much choice on their composition. TOW has less uniformity as it has more choices; you can build your army the way you want, making choices on how to compose each unit. You can make it as big or as small as you want, for the most part. You get balance in the points.
The points are the point of balance but only if they were tested and assessed to be worth what they give, rather than be too cheap or too expensive. In KoW this is much easier to assess across the armies but how can a play tester in TOW know if the great weapon upgrade for a black orc is appropriately costed compared to the additional hand weapon upgrade compared to the shield? In the end the points just help us think it's balanced :P we will play with our models either way
It was whispered around the place back in 2010 like this secret source of contraband. Funnily enough, now I'm finally painting those really old Orcs, they're actually pretty cool models - the Greatax I am particularly fond of.
Never gelled with KoW's ruleset, but I'm liking Old World so far. some jank to work out, but that's to be expected. I've still got oldhammer armies to use, so I'm not in the market for bulk model orders, but with interest in old world seemingly high and availability of first part models quite low, I'd have to imagine mantic is seeing a positive boost in mini sales, and personally I'd be more than happy to play a game of tOW against someone with an army of mantic minis.
I have picked up kings of war because the old world was announced. As they revealed the rules set, I felt it wasn't the game I wanted to play and looked at the alternatives, and was struck by the halflings army and not looked back!
I think you missed an important bit: Total War: Warhammer. It’s the only TW game that has had three versions (afaik) so it obviously sold well. The amount of DLC for that franchise is ridiculous and you know that a lot of the old WHFB gamers who played it bought a lot of it just to be able to play all the old (and new!) armies of WHFB. I think TW:Warhammer showed GW that there was a market for a rank and flank GW game
False. If that was the case then why did they wait 8 years after TW: Warhammer being released to bring out ToW? The only reason why GW is getting back into it is because they have seen how successful KoW has been and they want a slice of the pie that they threw away so long ago. GW doesn't care about it's customer base, all it cares about is it's bottom line for share holders and we can see that straight up with them flogging ancient miniatures at today's prices couple that with the rules basically just being 6th edition with some 8th edition thrown into it. Just pure laziness from GW to make a quick buck. I wouldn't be surprised if ToW only has a 4 year cycle and it will be gone.
I did miss it, but I am also still not sure as to its effect. Nearly all the Total War: Warhammer players I know personally also used to play actual Warhammer, so that's not so much gaining new players, but rather retaining old ones. That said, there must be video gamers in the Total War space that might pick up table top gaming, and I hope they do!
@@CaffeinatedWarlordI've seen a number of people over the years appear on fanatics saying something to the effect of "hi, new player here, I'm a big fan of total war warhammer and wanted to try the tabletop game, but apparently it doesn't exist anymore?! But then I came across kings of war and it looks really interesting" etc, the number of kings players gained probably wasn't huge but it wasn't nothing
@@Jmackdun you're right, it's not nothing, but I think GW returning to rank and flank will have a much bigger effect than Creative Assembly putting out Warhammer games. Both are good for the overall hobby, though. It's all more exposure :)
I see Old World as a knee jerk reaction to how popular KOW has become and the fact they p1ssed off soo many warhammer players by going to Sigmar. I can never see me going back to Warhammer, infact I stopped play at the beginning of 4th edition. KOW...IMHO is THE best rank and flank game out there if not THE most balanced set of gaming rules I have played. KOW forever
On a personal level I agree with you, but I think it's also the rise of many Rank and Flank games like A Song of Ice and Fire and Conquest as well. GW realised they left that market wide open and have regrets now 😂
Hard to fit in a single afternoon or evening, and not end too late. I wonder if events for TOW will be akin to 40K events I once went to, where the round was 2 hours but games would always end turn 3-4 as you would time out together. Quite unsatisfying.
I can't speak for how it was in Australia, but to say that rank n' flank gaming died with Warhammer Fantasy is a bit misleading. IN the time it was dead there was still Kings of War, not to mention the plethora of historical rank n' flank games like the offerings from Warlord Games or the rather excellent By Fire & Sword. Warhammer Fantasy was gone, but the genre was not.
The genre and game style persisted, but for the brand new gamer walking into a hobby store in most places around the world... They would only see 40K and Age of Sigmar on the shelves and think that's the only way you use miniatures in wargaming, which was the main aspect I was lamenting. If new people have to know about rank and flank somehow and actively search for it on the internet, then that's a very unlikely situation without a friend already doing it. At least now there's Old World there to show another way of playing, and now they will look at either alternative games like Old World, or alternative miniatures for Old World, and discover all the other wonderful games out there!
I'm excited to play Old World again but I wouldn't drop KoW for it personally. Also I have no desire to support GW as a company anymore. Sadly in my two closest towns the only thing that gets constantly played in 40k which is a shame as the variety of Mass Battle games out there now, KoW, 9th Age for Rank and Flank and AoS and more recently The Games of God's for skirmish (the latter being my game of choice at the minute) It's a shame everyone is just so heavily into GW and they will never try anything else. The KoW community is probably the best I've been a part of too so hopefully it sticks around for the foreseeable future :)
Nostalgia is all that will make me try, but KoW for me, too. Melbourne, Australia has a similar issue, what few stores exist with tables just have 40K being played (as well as Magic and Pokemon, of course). Otherwise there's plenty of GW stores, but they don't actually host games anymore beyond introduction games.
I've definitely noticed the surge in new players brought in due to the influence of TOW. I'm not sure but I think mantic has had an increase in sales too for example Empire of Dust models bought by Tomb King players, Ratkin by Skaven players etc. I would say KOW is the superior wargame by far but TOW is more of a narrative RPG type game that unfortunately takes twice as long.
Comments from Ronnie Renton seem to indicate that there are at least some more sales, and comments below in this video show that people are looking at the Mantic range for proxies - just like I did 14 years ago! Even 0.5% of TOW players looking for alternative models is a massive boost in sales, because the market is just that big.
I wonder is there a problem with the base sizes? The Old World uses bigger bases than the old Warhammer Fantasy. Is it possible to use Models with ToW-Bases in Kings of War?
Absolutely. Units in Kings of War are at set sizes - troops, regiments, hordes and legions. These have specific dimensions depending on unit type - infantry, cavalry, chariot. So people get a big base at the right dimensions and then put their minis on it. Can put enough to completely cover it like a movement tray, or a few less and make a nice diorama (see my goblins!). That way it doesn't really matter what individual base size is. Except the Arachnarock Spider, that's massive
ah very nice, because i thought about trying out KoW additionally to ToW. All i need is the current KoW Rulebook and my ToW Army i guess. The Empire of Dust Model range looks very nice but i think all my Khemri models could easily cover the Empire of Dust unit types. @@CaffeinatedWarlord
Many people are used to Tomb Kings as Empire of Dust. Skeletons = skeletons, tomb guard = revenants, ushabti = enslaved guardians, casket of souls = soul snare. Some models that have less direct comparison but are very useful units are the Monolith and the Idol of Shobik. Can see the units on the mantic website and either get them or think of what you might use in their stead.
Honestly, I'm pretty concerned about the future of GW and their IPs in the tabletop space. It's my firm belief that GW is a $10-$30 worth of price increases away from collapsing their entire market. Once a standard box of infantry costs around $90-$100 (USD/CAD) I think you'll finally see consumer tolerance for GW prices snap. Some people might cynically cheer this on, but I think it'll be catastrophic for the scene as a whole. The reality is there is really nothing in the space that does what GW does the way GW does it. Games lke KoW might be a good game, but they tend to lack the narrative charm that hooks people in their settings and keeps them playing and discussing them. If GW goes belly up or contracts in a substantial way then there's really nothing to replace it. Personally, I'm already at my wits end with GW and it's gotten to the point where I'm just considering producing my own game and printing my own models because it's turning out to be a cheaper alternative.
@@donotinteract7851 like I said, it's that $100 mark. We're already dangerously close to that right now. The price for a newer box of (usually) 10 baseline infantry for 40k or AoS is around $70 (over $80 if you're a Canadian like me) - that's about $5-$10 way from the danger zone. TOW pricing is an entirely different beast altogether and is extremely hard to pin down. You have the price of things like the necrosphinx - which isn't too bad, tomb guard - who are older models in that danger zone but come in packs of 20, and then you have things like the Ushabti - which have a horrifying $100+ price tag for awful metal models. If I had to guess, I say TOW will be the first to suffer most significantly from GW pricing, as there's already a distinct lack of faith surrounding it on both sides of the equation, but I can't see either 40k or AoS being that far behind it. GW is one or two bad price hikes away from cutting the new blood off to those games, and existing hobbyist will simply cut back or cut off their current levels of investment, leading total collapse in momentum for the brands.
Then there's Australian pricing! I agree, though, we don't want them to go. They bring people in and are the reason hobby stores have any gaming tables at all! Otherwise it will all be card gaming spaces.
I got a 3d printer 2 weeks ago, it was the best thing i've done. Once you have the printer you could print any of the AUD $500+ OLD world box sets for under $100 which includes buying stls and resin. If you decided to print it a second time it would be maybe around a bottle of resin depending on the army, so $40. Not only that most of the 3rd party models are just better then the old models gw decided to reprint. For kings of war this is even more handy as you can print terrain and items for multi-basing on demand. Also movement trays with mmc/pmc.
Thanks for the video! Well done! Some quick opinions. TOW is partially a reaction to KOW to stifle the competition. I've been trying to find evidence of this, but it sure seems true. I think GW was looking for an area of expansion, and, say, KOW was starting to take over space. KOW is not really rank and flank, as there are no ranks???? You have blocks, not ranks! They are VERY different games that play very differently. KOW is close to Chess, IMHO. All the blocks/units have a great deal of uniformity, and you know what they can do. When they are defeated, you remove them like a chess piece - and like in chess, one piece leaving the board has no effect on the other pieces. It's very much an IGOUGO system where there is minimal interaction; when it's your opponent's turn, you do very little. It's a bit more streamlined and goes quick, and emphasizes a lot of stylized play with weird unit movements. But there is room for both games. The real goal is to push our little toy soldiers around, roll dies, bellow a lot, and have fun with your friends. If you like KOW or TOW better, you should play the one that makes you the happiest!
Precisely, we should just play what scratches the itch right. Some want the granularity of TOW, and others the stripped back nature of KoW. Now if you apply that definition of ranks and flanks, the majority of historicals would be invalidated 😅 really the rank and flank ideal refers to units being arranged in very specific ways (even TOW can be played with blocks) and that flanks refers to the importance of positioning. It's ultimately why I prefer KoW, TOW and Conquest to 40K and AoS.
I truly love the Warhammer setting, but for so many reasons now it's just not something I can get back into on the tabletop. Glad you've found Kings of War! It really is a simpler game, and a lot more fun for it (less bookwork, more gaming!)
Having been investigating The Old World rules, it looks like rank and flank but its actually a new edition of 5th ed HeroHammer. I think the old school players who emerge from the woodwork (like myself) will get bored of the herohammer meta fairly quickly, and thats where you can capture a new wave of people looking for alternative rank and flank systems because The Old World won’t quite give them the fix they came back for.
out of 5 ppl I know whom play KOW 4 have no clue about the lore for KOW they are basically playing warhammer fantasy lore and models... using someone else's ruleset. Rank and flank atm is growing but that is because of games like SiF.
It is indeed KoWs rules that get everyone excited to play first and foremost, and so I don't tend to get annoyed at people who ignore the lore. But the lore is getting better despite being ignored! I've never heard of a growing rank and flank community due to SiF, but if that's doing the job that's cool!
Tow will die again because of cost. Middle aged people are getting nostalgic over it but kids can’t afford the high prices. Personally I think 3d printing is the way to go.
Kings of War has an opportunity to grow alongside The Old World, however the nerds in the KoW community need to stop shaming players for using non-Mantic miniatures. And Mantic need to to stop releasing heroes that hit non-Mantic miniature units for 40 hits at Crushing Strength 4.
We can all be more accepting. I like the blend of encouraging people to get Mantic armies with Mantic army hobby prizes, but also prizes for best army regardless of miniature manufacturing. And I think you might be referring to old Groany Snark 😂 he's gone. Now all he can do is maximum 18 damage if you have the luck of the gods on your side
I wish mantic mimiced more warhammer fantasy, so we could buy cheap foot soldiers . unfortunately some factions (like my dark elves) are getting too different
This would be a bold move, but considering the work a lot of people do with their multibases, a drastic change in size would not be popular 😅 that said, I don't think we should jump too quickly as many players will opt for movement tray adaptors rather than rebasing. Who wants to rebase orcs to 30mm anyway?
Heres my opinion on the old world. GW noticed a rising popularoty of rank and file games, (KoW, conquest etc) and they could not believe that theres a profitable market that they thought dead that theyre not tapping into. They dusted off old, ancient even sprue molds, slapped modern prices on 30 year old kits and started appealing to the memberberries of fans older than 30 years old. As such, i refuse buying their 30 year old minis for modern prices and instead 3d print and/or play other game systems.
Definitely! It's where the whole genre started, but as far as awareness in the social consciousness, it's Warhammer Fantasy that gets the exposure. I never knew about historical wargaming in Australia until I was playing Warhammer Fantasy and heard about Warhammer Ancients. Even then, I didn't actually know anyone playing it. So while Fantasy isn't the be all and end all, it's certainly the flagship
@@CaffeinatedWarlord That's fair. I certainly heard about Warhammer Fantasy before I heard about Kings of War, and that was when warhammer fantasy was still dead.
GW has succeeded in bringing tabletop wargaming into the modern zeitgeist, so yay that's awesome. But they've become such a toxic company that has such a high barrier to entry with their pricing that people will look elsewhere to scratch their gaming itch, which is also awesome. There are enough wargames out now (both square and round based) that I feel like we're entering a gaming renaissance.
I would happily buy from the Kings of War range to build an old world army, but as someone who wants to create a high elf army, my god the elves from Kings of War look sooooo naff!! Incredibly poor sculpts. It is true, Mantic models are better value, but I'd be happy to pay more for better sculpts!
Oooh yeah the Elves. They are really hard to love so I don't blame you. UA-cam channel Hordes of Things painted up a Mantic Elf army and it looked really good, but still not quite that High Elf look. Some good Elves include the Ice Kin Hunters from Northern Alliance, but really the would only work as Shadow Warriors or White Lions.
The conga lines are particularly odd... why let every person in front rank fight regardless of base contact? Caveat, I know this only from second hand info as Australia literally doesn't get The Old World stuff until middle of this month...
@@CaffeinatedWarlord because the rest of the game is equally terribly designed The main linehammer video here: ua-cam.com/video/ctRvADAzfRo/v-deo.htmlsi=u_OCTk-mmVYJ23Hr
Yeah absolutely. KoW/T9A/WAP have the much better and balanced set of rules what ToW, better to say GW, is not even aiming for. ToW is really just a stupid nostalgia dead horse riding thing to sell tons of heroes on big monsters + other single models (like monsters) ah yeah and some stuff that is great being played in lines... A game with so obviously bad rule writing, I do not understand AT ALL why people are freely rebasing their entire armies just for this shit show. Base adapters ok, so to still be able to play all the other RnF games which are simply BETTER just alone because they are much more balanced and do not have such stupid loopholes that allow linehammer for instance. I mean for real, the contradiction here is gigantic! It simply is meant to be a RnF game so with ranked up models in units because rank bonus is, or better to say, should be a thing! The "models that die cannot attack anymore" rule simply contradicts itself by this "all models not even in contact get 1 attack" rule. So there are these 2 rules that simply do not fit together in this ruleset at all and make it absurd. It does not only look silly, it simply is very bad contradicting rule writing that makes rank bonus obsolete while rank bonus in fact should be an important factor. So the core rules themselves simply have a rule that is destroying the whole incentive point of playing an RnF game with BLOCKS of units. I mean... the game somewhat tells you "blocks are the way to go" and then the rules say "ah no, lines beat blocks"... just plain stupid thou and obviously a broken, not at all, thought about rule wormhole/blackhole/asshole thingy!
Well, I don't see it this way. TOW is a much better game with much better models for its mechanics. TOW has two things KOW lacks, choice and interaction. I've played a TON of 6th edition WHFB and a ton of KOW, and I like WHFB/TOW much, much better. The main test is real battles don't work like KOW battles; there are so many weird movements and interactions. It's fun, but it takes way too much suspension of disbelief. You're welcome to dislike TOW, and I hope KOW continues on and grows.
I'm keen to get into KOW (come from other wargames) but in Australia KOW has such a small community. Not the games fault, but unfortunately warhammer dominates - hopefully this changes.
It is hard. Only the big games survive in the outback. My hometown in country Victoria has only 40K and AoS, there's not even Old World. Thankfully Melbourne has a decent KoW scene of 40-50 players all up.
Most of the smaller cities and the regional areas are completely GW games, which is fair, they're relatively easy to acquire. But maybe with old world taking off you never know! Would be good to have an excuse to go to Adelaide
I think for the first 6 months TOW will be busy getting core faction releases. After that it's a slow drip feed like all the other specialist studio games.
Yes and no. GW games aren't really good entry games, in the sense that if you enter the wargaming hobby through GW ecosystem you are less likely to be exposed to other games than if you try any other first. It's kind of like with D&D, there has been an entire new generation of players who entered the roleplaying hobby through it, but only few of them noticed that there are other games and even fewer tried them. So certainly the awareness of rank&file as a way a wargame can be structured by will rise, but it does not necessarily mean the people who know the hobby only through that GW ecosystem will become even aware of the other games. Time will tell.
^This. Warhammer is less a gateway for wargaming, and more of a silo. If you're willing/able to overcome the barriers to entry GW erects around Warhammer, you end up stuck inside of it.
I can understand this argument, but even a tiny fraction of GW customers looking for something else is a massive boost to every other game. And in Australia, GW is the only (visible) game in town. We don't have many stores where KoW exists or can be played, because all we have are GW stores in most cities.
@@CaffeinatedWarlord I get that and it's not just Australia. I currently live in the UK and you can't get KoW in any of the hobby shops in Exeter, which is after all a capital of a county. So KoW doesn't really have that big of a distribution presence even in its homecountry. I just doubt TOW will inspire consumers and stores to look towards other games of that type in a significant manner.
About half of the kow players locally are whfb refugees or their kids... They won't be going back... conquest and asoiaf have more cross over with kow than whfb will have if everyone over the weekend was being honest. Not saying people won't be buying models. Several people are all in on that tombking box. But from the sounds of things they won't be playing old world. I know I won't... I have my kow armies and my asoiaf armies and I am waiting on weaver courts for conquest.
We only have so much time. The streamlined rules of Kings of War mean I can really get into the tactics of the game. I just don't think I have the time for a game that needs the book to be used all the time. The Weaver courts look pretty cool!
I understand your point of view, but for the majority of new customers in the last two decades, it doesn't really matter that historicals were doing their thing because these new customers wouldn't know. They walk into a GW and find out about miniature wargaming. Pre-2015, this would at least include some Rank and File miniatures with WFB, but after 2015 it was gone. No new people would be cognizant of such gaming modes. Skirmish reigned supreme, with only the older customers having the memory or want of Rank and File. Also I say rank and flank, like many, because it rhymes.
This was definitely a valid criticism 5 years ago, but the most recent sculpts rival modern GW, and they surpass old GW. Mantic Goblin Rabble, by way of example, are far superior to GW Goblins. If you're lacking good sculpts from Mantic, I would suggest inspecting the Ogre, Nightstalker and Twilight Kin ranges, as these are almost exclusively newer sculpts made in via Archon Studios, masters of HIPS plastic.
Dem fightin' words! Old Mantic you'd be considered well within your rights to say but new Mantic (2019 to now) has put out some incredible sculpts. Halflings, Nightstalkers, Twilight Kin, Northern Alliance and Ogres are all good examples.
The problem is still going to be are people willing to play a non warhammer game a lot of people think warhammer is the only tabletop wargame. Hell GW is trying to get people to call it the warhammer hobby instead of the wargaming hobby to try and hide their competitors even more.
This will always be an issue but even if 0.5%, a tiny fraction, of old world players decide to try other games, that's a huge boon for other games, especially if they would never have reached those people without such a big draw card that Warhammer is
I don't see many people ditching KOW for TOW. Sure lots of people from the KOW player base, myself included, will give TOW a try but will they not play KOW anymore? Unlikely! KOW is too good to be binned in favour of the new shiny game. If anything I see it going the other way. After the nostalgia has worn off and GW continues to hike prices people will probably be leaning towards Mantic.
The nostalgia for Warhammer Fantasy plus the timely reminder of GW's ineptitude drove me directly TO Kings of War!
Yeah that's how I got to KoW, after a few years trying to make 40K fun for me.
KoW also has the much better and balanced set of rules what ToW, better to say GW, is not even aiming for.
One thing that might also help is that GW has been bungling up the release of Old World. They had nothing available hours after the official release and most stores won't stock up until the 16th. I was kinda curious about old world, but not even being able to get the books turned me off. Instead I looked towards to some ambush sets and now am launching into a full twilight kin army. Availability is huge.
This is also a major factor, you are right. I didn't really want to get into criticizing the whole Old World itself. The fact that only 2 armies were made available at release, and that even these were quickly unavailable, means that the wider community is stuck waiting. Either waiting a little restocks of these 2 armies, or waiting a long time for each of the next armies on the way, which may themselves have their own stocking issues.
This is fine for people who already have armies and miniatures to play Old World, but new people will be left without any recourse but to wait... or try other companies! I am sure all the rank and flank suppliers out there, from Kings of War to A Song of Ice and Fire and various 3D print ranges, will be doing very well this year.
GW has had logistical (and pricing) problems for years because they insist on running a limited manufacturer operation out of England - despite over half of their market being situated in North America. Warhammer IPs are the most popular they've every been and GW is juggling more balls than ever, yet they still refuse to increase their manufacturing capabilities.
Worse still, there's been a worrying trend of GW attempting to push more and more business towards their online store and away from third-party retailers. At lot of people buy all their stuff from their LGS and GW appears increasingly to want a bigger and bigger slice of their pie.
@@spnked9516 I would remind people here of something that Elon Musk as iterated many times.
Now you might not like the guy for his personal or political opinions but let's leave that aside for a moment.
For many years now in multiple of his businesses the man has been involved in a lot of physical products.
One thing he allways says is the hardest part of every one of his businesses is moving beyond a prototype and getting regular production going.
We might be underestimating how hard it is for GW to get more production off the ground seeing as how many IP's they handle.
Maybe getting more factories and Printers going is just too risky. Maybe it puts you 2 unpopular release cycles away from bankrupcy.
I mean so far you can't even buy core units outside of the starter boxes. Like all the people I see playing TOW either had old armies or printed new ones and pirated the rules, because they can't even get a hand on those.
I am still extremely salty that they had me buy the End Times books only to discontinue the ENTIRE game 10 seconds after the release of the last book.
I have this salt, too. I did not expect it to end like that after all the hype
Real pros stopped playing WHF at the beginning of 8th edition because the game was just a stupid bullshit show then already. 😛
It's not even just the end times, the way they treat their customers was disgusting and not only that they were shocking to deal with if you were small games shop owner during 8th edition.
The salt still flows through me! Though admittedly after the dire position they were in during AoS1 they changed massively, they had to because the AoS1 release has to go down as one of the most embarrasing releases in all of Wargaming History.
The interaction they have with the community now is much improved, they even send out lots of free stuff to social media people (yes free marketing for them but it's still good for the community too)
@@lordy6666 it's a very different GW for sure, so let's hope they can make TOW work, and get rank and flank out to all the uninformed 😂 and oh yeah... That first AoS without points... What? Why???
@@lordy6666In my opinion there is nothing good in sending free stuff to social media people because these social media people way too often just celebrate blindly what GW sends them.
They are nothing but influencers making people buy GWs shit.
Whenever you know that some blog, channel etc. owner is getting promoted with stuff from GW you should always take care of what they try tell/sell you.
Nothing good in here for the community, in my opinion.
I've been playing Warhammer since the edition with Lizardman vs Bretonnian starter set. I am finally breaking up with GW. Just going to finish what I own.
I brought a box of goblin flee bag riders and painted that up a few years ago.
My mate got the Northern alliance mega army box set and I am still deciding on a fraction to choose. I cannot wait to play this game and support this awesome company.
If there is one critique of Kings of War is that there are too many factions to choose from! As always the best advice is to pick an army that aesthetically speaks to you, because painting all those minis will need that enthusiasm. For me this was Forces of the Abyss (I love those maniacal demonic infantry) and Goblins (also maniacal grinning infantry... clearly I have a thing). Welcome to the Kings of War community!
I've basically never seen anyone playing AoS in Australia.
Someone told me a few years ago that at Australia's biggest wargame comp there were more AoS players than 40k players entered.
Seemed hard to believe since I'd never seen anyone play it at all, at that time.
I've tried Conquest. It plays fine. The models are insanely expensive though. My friend got the starter box second hand, I helped him assemble and we tried it out. Thought yeah, ok, I might get into this. Saw the prices of models and bailed. Was similar to GW prices which was way too high.
AoS is reasonably popular around Victoria, with certain clubs and shops heavily invested. And at CanCon AoS remains a major event. I tried for a little but it's not the way I want to play fantasy. If I want skirmish I'll play 40k.
As for conquest, I did think of trying some models for proxy. There's very beautiful models in their range, but the cost really is prohibitive
I love rank and file games...what i don´t like are 30 years old miniatures brought back and sold for todays prizes.
Yeah that rankles me, too. I'll use my old Orcs but I won't buy more of the exact same old Orcs 🫠
I'm very happy about the old figs coming back, don't have to pay sky high prices. I need more gw orcs and Incan get them now.
Rank and flank has existed for decades before WHFB or KoW. Historical miniature wargaming has a wide variety of rules for a wide variety of periods and armies centered around line warfare.
Also true, but the exposure if these historical systems to the average new gamer is low.
Good video. I share these same feelings about my rank & flank game of choice, A Song of Ice & Fire. I see The Old World as an opportunity to bring folks into the R&F genre. The Old World will hopefully serve as a gateway to these other (better) R&F games.
Exactly right. We all benefit. A Song of Ice and Fire at least had the intellectual property of a Game of Thrones to help get it some exposure, but the overall gameplay element of having GW back in rank and flank will help. Even if someone wants Lannister-style Empire army, they will fine ASOIAF minis better than old Empire models.
Awesome video!
100% agree that this is a great opportunity for KOW to get more eyeballs and we should see some growth come out of that!
If one likes huge armies, KoW does it better. If one likes balanced rules, KoW does it better. If one prefers lower cost minis, KoW does it better. But GW does have a more developed lore and some lines have better minis and they're great at FOMO and continual supply of hotness. To each their own.
Precisely. Some people like what they like.
I agree with some of your points, but not the balanced rules. KOW has balance as it has uniformity; you really can't individualize your units, it's close to a game of chess where you buy set pieces w/o much choice on their composition. TOW has less uniformity as it has more choices; you can build your army the way you want, making choices on how to compose each unit. You can make it as big or as small as you want, for the most part. You get balance in the points.
The points are the point of balance but only if they were tested and assessed to be worth what they give, rather than be too cheap or too expensive. In KoW this is much easier to assess across the armies but how can a play tester in TOW know if the great weapon upgrade for a black orc is appropriately costed compared to the additional hand weapon upgrade compared to the shield? In the end the points just help us think it's balanced :P we will play with our models either way
I heard about Mantic from Podhammer, an Australian Warhammer podcast.
It was whispered around the place back in 2010 like this secret source of contraband. Funnily enough, now I'm finally painting those really old Orcs, they're actually pretty cool models - the Greatax I am particularly fond of.
Never gelled with KoW's ruleset, but I'm liking Old World so far. some jank to work out, but that's to be expected. I've still got oldhammer armies to use, so I'm not in the market for bulk model orders, but with interest in old world seemingly high and availability of first part models quite low, I'd have to imagine mantic is seeing a positive boost in mini sales, and personally I'd be more than happy to play a game of tOW against someone with an army of mantic minis.
Gentleman and a scholar. I'm just happy people are playing rank and flank!
Well, to be honest, KoW has the much better and balanced set of rules what ToW, better to say GW, is not even aiming for.
I love Fantasy. LOVE Fantasy. But KoW has way better rules. It's not even close. After playing TOW I just wanted to play Kings more.
There are no lines or unstoppable dragons in Kings of War, that's for sure!
The fact that even Kings of War channels are all posting content about The Old World should tell you something.
It's added energy to the genre of wargaming, a big advert that this is a valid style to the general GW-only masses :p
All two of them?
I have picked up kings of war because the old world was announced. As they revealed the rules set, I felt it wasn't the game I wanted to play and looked at the alternatives, and was struck by the halflings army and not looked back!
A perfect example of the effect! And you chose wisely, Halflings have beautiful models and so many playstyles.
Hey, I was thinking along the same lines but you made an eloquent presentation out of the idea. You got a new follower.
Wow, eloquent even! Thank you good sir.
I think you missed an important bit: Total War: Warhammer. It’s the only TW game that has had three versions (afaik) so it obviously sold well. The amount of DLC for that franchise is ridiculous and you know that a lot of the old WHFB gamers who played it bought a lot of it just to be able to play all the old (and new!) armies of WHFB. I think TW:Warhammer showed GW that there was a market for a rank and flank GW game
False. If that was the case then why did they wait 8 years after TW: Warhammer being released to bring out ToW? The only reason why GW is getting back into it is because they have seen how successful KoW has been and they want a slice of the pie that they threw away so long ago. GW doesn't care about it's customer base, all it cares about is it's bottom line for share holders and we can see that straight up with them flogging ancient miniatures at today's prices couple that with the rules basically just being 6th edition with some 8th edition thrown into it. Just pure laziness from GW to make a quick buck. I wouldn't be surprised if ToW only has a 4 year cycle and it will be gone.
I did miss it, but I am also still not sure as to its effect. Nearly all the Total War: Warhammer players I know personally also used to play actual Warhammer, so that's not so much gaining new players, but rather retaining old ones. That said, there must be video gamers in the Total War space that might pick up table top gaming, and I hope they do!
@@CaffeinatedWarlordI've seen a number of people over the years appear on fanatics saying something to the effect of "hi, new player here, I'm a big fan of total war warhammer and wanted to try the tabletop game, but apparently it doesn't exist anymore?! But then I came across kings of war and it looks really interesting" etc, the number of kings players gained probably wasn't huge but it wasn't nothing
@@Jmackdun you're right, it's not nothing, but I think GW returning to rank and flank will have a much bigger effect than Creative Assembly putting out Warhammer games. Both are good for the overall hobby, though. It's all more exposure :)
I see Old World as a knee jerk reaction to how popular KOW has become and the fact they p1ssed off soo many warhammer players by going to Sigmar.
I can never see me going back to Warhammer, infact I stopped play at the beginning of 4th edition.
KOW...IMHO is THE best rank and flank game out there if not THE most balanced set of gaming rules I have played.
KOW forever
On a personal level I agree with you, but I think it's also the rise of many Rank and Flank games like A Song of Ice and Fire and Conquest as well. GW realised they left that market wide open and have regrets now 😂
@@CaffeinatedWarlord yeah, they left the market wide open tbh
The time needed is the main factor. ToW takes roughly twice as much time.
Hard to fit in a single afternoon or evening, and not end too late. I wonder if events for TOW will be akin to 40K events I once went to, where the round was 2 hours but games would always end turn 3-4 as you would time out together. Quite unsatisfying.
I can't speak for how it was in Australia, but to say that rank n' flank gaming died with Warhammer Fantasy is a bit misleading. IN the time it was dead there was still Kings of War, not to mention the plethora of historical rank n' flank games like the offerings from Warlord Games or the rather excellent By Fire & Sword.
Warhammer Fantasy was gone, but the genre was not.
The genre and game style persisted, but for the brand new gamer walking into a hobby store in most places around the world... They would only see 40K and Age of Sigmar on the shelves and think that's the only way you use miniatures in wargaming, which was the main aspect I was lamenting. If new people have to know about rank and flank somehow and actively search for it on the internet, then that's a very unlikely situation without a friend already doing it. At least now there's Old World there to show another way of playing, and now they will look at either alternative games like Old World, or alternative miniatures for Old World, and discover all the other wonderful games out there!
I'm excited to play Old World again but I wouldn't drop KoW for it personally.
Also I have no desire to support GW as a company anymore.
Sadly in my two closest towns the only thing that gets constantly played in 40k which is a shame as the variety of Mass Battle games out there now, KoW, 9th Age for Rank and Flank and AoS and more recently The Games of God's for skirmish (the latter being my game of choice at the minute)
It's a shame everyone is just so heavily into GW and they will never try anything else.
The KoW community is probably the best I've been a part of too so hopefully it sticks around for the foreseeable future :)
Nostalgia is all that will make me try, but KoW for me, too.
Melbourne, Australia has a similar issue, what few stores exist with tables just have 40K being played (as well as Magic and Pokemon, of course). Otherwise there's plenty of GW stores, but they don't actually host games anymore beyond introduction games.
I've definitely noticed the surge in new players brought in due to the influence of TOW. I'm not sure but I think mantic has had an increase in sales too for example Empire of Dust models bought by Tomb King players, Ratkin by Skaven players etc. I would say KOW is the superior wargame by far but TOW is more of a narrative RPG type game that unfortunately takes twice as long.
Comments from Ronnie Renton seem to indicate that there are at least some more sales, and comments below in this video show that people are looking at the Mantic range for proxies - just like I did 14 years ago! Even 0.5% of TOW players looking for alternative models is a massive boost in sales, because the market is just that big.
I wonder is there a problem with the base sizes? The Old World uses bigger bases than the old Warhammer Fantasy. Is it possible to use Models with ToW-Bases in Kings of War?
Absolutely. Units in Kings of War are at set sizes - troops, regiments, hordes and legions. These have specific dimensions depending on unit type - infantry, cavalry, chariot. So people get a big base at the right dimensions and then put their minis on it. Can put enough to completely cover it like a movement tray, or a few less and make a nice diorama (see my goblins!). That way it doesn't really matter what individual base size is. Except the Arachnarock Spider, that's massive
ah very nice, because i thought about trying out KoW additionally to ToW. All i need is the current KoW Rulebook and my ToW Army i guess. The Empire of Dust Model range looks very nice but i think all my Khemri models could easily cover the Empire of Dust unit types. @@CaffeinatedWarlord
Many people are used to Tomb Kings as Empire of Dust. Skeletons = skeletons, tomb guard = revenants, ushabti = enslaved guardians, casket of souls = soul snare. Some models that have less direct comparison but are very useful units are the Monolith and the Idol of Shobik. Can see the units on the mantic website and either get them or think of what you might use in their stead.
Honestly, I'm pretty concerned about the future of GW and their IPs in the tabletop space. It's my firm belief that GW is a $10-$30 worth of price increases away from collapsing their entire market. Once a standard box of infantry costs around $90-$100 (USD/CAD) I think you'll finally see consumer tolerance for GW prices snap.
Some people might cynically cheer this on, but I think it'll be catastrophic for the scene as a whole. The reality is there is really nothing in the space that does what GW does the way GW does it. Games lke KoW might be a good game, but they tend to lack the narrative charm that hooks people in their settings and keeps them playing and discussing them. If GW goes belly up or contracts in a substantial way then there's really nothing to replace it.
Personally, I'm already at my wits end with GW and it's gotten to the point where I'm just considering producing my own game and printing my own models because it's turning out to be a cheaper alternative.
Definitely feels like we're reaching a tipping point with pricing
@@donotinteract7851 like I said, it's that $100 mark. We're already dangerously close to that right now. The price for a newer box of (usually) 10 baseline infantry for 40k or AoS is around $70 (over $80 if you're a Canadian like me) - that's about $5-$10 way from the danger zone.
TOW pricing is an entirely different beast altogether and is extremely hard to pin down. You have the price of things like the necrosphinx - which isn't too bad, tomb guard - who are older models in that danger zone but come in packs of 20, and then you have things like the Ushabti - which have a horrifying $100+ price tag for awful metal models.
If I had to guess, I say TOW will be the first to suffer most significantly from GW pricing, as there's already a distinct lack of faith surrounding it on both sides of the equation, but I can't see either 40k or AoS being that far behind it. GW is one or two bad price hikes away from cutting the new blood off to those games, and existing hobbyist will simply cut back or cut off their current levels of investment, leading total collapse in momentum for the brands.
Then there's Australian pricing! I agree, though, we don't want them to go. They bring people in and are the reason hobby stores have any gaming tables at all! Otherwise it will all be card gaming spaces.
I got a 3d printer 2 weeks ago, it was the best thing i've done. Once you have the printer you could print any of the AUD $500+ OLD world box sets for under $100 which includes buying stls and resin. If you decided to print it a second time it would be maybe around a bottle of resin depending on the army, so $40. Not only that most of the 3rd party models are just better then the old models gw decided to reprint. For kings of war this is even more handy as you can print terrain and items for multi-basing on demand. Also movement trays with mmc/pmc.
Thanks for the video! Well done!
Some quick opinions.
TOW is partially a reaction to KOW to stifle the competition. I've been trying to find evidence of this, but it sure seems true. I think GW was looking for an area of expansion, and, say, KOW was starting to take over space.
KOW is not really rank and flank, as there are no ranks???? You have blocks, not ranks!
They are VERY different games that play very differently. KOW is close to Chess, IMHO. All the blocks/units have a great deal of uniformity, and you know what they can do. When they are defeated, you remove them like a chess piece - and like in chess, one piece leaving the board has no effect on the other pieces. It's very much an IGOUGO system where there is minimal interaction; when it's your opponent's turn, you do very little. It's a bit more streamlined and goes quick, and emphasizes a lot of stylized play with weird unit movements.
But there is room for both games. The real goal is to push our little toy soldiers around, roll dies, bellow a lot, and have fun with your friends. If you like KOW or TOW better, you should play the one that makes you the happiest!
Precisely, we should just play what scratches the itch right. Some want the granularity of TOW, and others the stripped back nature of KoW.
Now if you apply that definition of ranks and flanks, the majority of historicals would be invalidated 😅 really the rank and flank ideal refers to units being arranged in very specific ways (even TOW can be played with blocks) and that flanks refers to the importance of positioning. It's ultimately why I prefer KoW, TOW and Conquest to 40K and AoS.
Also I like the strict IGOUGO for my battle reports! So easy to capture as my opponent really only needs to ask me about stats occasionally.
Great video. Me and a friend were originally looking to get into ToW, but since discovering KoW we much prefer the simpler ruleset and cheaper minis.
I truly love the Warhammer setting, but for so many reasons now it's just not something I can get back into on the tabletop. Glad you've found Kings of War! It really is a simpler game, and a lot more fun for it (less bookwork, more gaming!)
Having been investigating The Old World rules, it looks like rank and flank but its actually a new edition of 5th ed HeroHammer. I think the old school players who emerge from the woodwork (like myself) will get bored of the herohammer meta fairly quickly, and thats where you can capture a new wave of people looking for alternative rank and flank systems because The Old World won’t quite give them the fix they came back for.
I'm certainly curious but KoW will be forever my main game.
out of 5 ppl I know whom play KOW 4 have no clue about the lore for KOW they are basically playing warhammer fantasy lore and models... using someone else's ruleset. Rank and flank atm is growing but that is because of games like SiF.
It is indeed KoWs rules that get everyone excited to play first and foremost, and so I don't tend to get annoyed at people who ignore the lore. But the lore is getting better despite being ignored!
I've never heard of a growing rank and flank community due to SiF, but if that's doing the job that's cool!
Tow will die again because of cost. Middle aged people are getting nostalgic over it but kids can’t afford the high prices. Personally I think 3d printing is the way to go.
That's what's different between 10 years ago and now. 3D printing now exists and can match the quality.
rising tide and all that!
Precisely! I managed to make a lot longer version of this exact sentiment 😅
The algorithm just pushed this video because I’m a Fantasy veteran interested in TOW. So yeah, i’d say it’s working. :)
All hail the algorithm! Heartily recommend Kings of War minis if you need to fill in your fantasy forces 😜
Kings of War has an opportunity to grow alongside The Old World, however the nerds in the KoW community need to stop shaming players for using non-Mantic miniatures. And Mantic need to to stop releasing heroes that hit non-Mantic miniature units for 40 hits at Crushing Strength 4.
We can all be more accepting. I like the blend of encouraging people to get Mantic armies with Mantic army hobby prizes, but also prizes for best army regardless of miniature manufacturing. And I think you might be referring to old Groany Snark 😂 he's gone. Now all he can do is maximum 18 damage if you have the luck of the gods on your side
@@CaffeinatedWarlordnope he's referring to Ronnie the Bastard. It's a joke unit and definitely not for any sort of competitive play.
I wish mantic mimiced more warhammer fantasy, so we could buy cheap foot soldiers . unfortunately some factions (like my dark elves) are getting too different
It's a difficult balance between wanting their own IP and servicing more classic factions. The new Impalers are a bit too big to be executioners 😅
All I want to see KoW do is change their unit size to match to Old World. Then they can sit back again and laugh.
This would be a bold move, but considering the work a lot of people do with their multibases, a drastic change in size would not be popular 😅 that said, I don't think we should jump too quickly as many players will opt for movement tray adaptors rather than rebasing. Who wants to rebase orcs to 30mm anyway?
Heres my opinion on the old world.
GW noticed a rising popularoty of rank and file games, (KoW, conquest etc) and they could not believe that theres a profitable market that they thought dead that theyre not tapping into.
They dusted off old, ancient even sprue molds, slapped modern prices on 30 year old kits and started appealing to the memberberries of fans older than 30 years old.
As such, i refuse buying their 30 year old minis for modern prices and instead 3d print and/or play other game systems.
Aren't a lot of historicals rank and flank? Especially those set pre-1900?
Definitely! It's where the whole genre started, but as far as awareness in the social consciousness, it's Warhammer Fantasy that gets the exposure. I never knew about historical wargaming in Australia until I was playing Warhammer Fantasy and heard about Warhammer Ancients. Even then, I didn't actually know anyone playing it. So while Fantasy isn't the be all and end all, it's certainly the flagship
@@CaffeinatedWarlord That's fair. I certainly heard about Warhammer Fantasy before I heard about Kings of War, and that was when warhammer fantasy was still dead.
GW has succeeded in bringing tabletop wargaming into the modern zeitgeist, so yay that's awesome.
But they've become such a toxic company that has such a high barrier to entry with their pricing that people will look elsewhere to scratch their gaming itch, which is also awesome.
There are enough wargames out now (both square and round based) that I feel like we're entering a gaming renaissance.
It's amazing what's available to choose from in any given genre. 20 years ago it was so limited, but now we are all free!
I would happily buy from the Kings of War range to build an old world army, but as someone who wants to create a high elf army, my god the elves from Kings of War look sooooo naff!! Incredibly poor sculpts. It is true, Mantic models are better value, but I'd be happy to pay more for better sculpts!
Oooh yeah the Elves. They are really hard to love so I don't blame you. UA-cam channel Hordes of Things painted up a Mantic Elf army and it looked really good, but still not quite that High Elf look.
Some good Elves include the Ice Kin Hunters from Northern Alliance, but really the would only work as Shadow Warriors or White Lions.
The main issue with all rank n flank is that it hasn't evolved
How would you evolve it? Alternating activations?
@@CaffeinatedWarlord that'd be one way.
One page rules uses that
TOW is a joke. 24" wide conga lines that can sometimes fly 24". Not to mention the herohammer, deathstar Domination, grindyness, etc
The conga lines are particularly odd... why let every person in front rank fight regardless of base contact? Caveat, I know this only from second hand info as Australia literally doesn't get The Old World stuff until middle of this month...
@@CaffeinatedWarlord because the rest of the game is equally terribly designed
The main linehammer video here:
ua-cam.com/video/ctRvADAzfRo/v-deo.htmlsi=u_OCTk-mmVYJ23Hr
That is a hilarious video! Subscribed just because of his presenting personality 🤣
Yeah absolutely. KoW/T9A/WAP have the much better and balanced set of rules what ToW, better to say GW, is not even aiming for.
ToW is really just a stupid nostalgia dead horse riding thing to sell tons of heroes on big monsters + other single models (like monsters) ah yeah and some stuff that is great being played in lines...
A game with so obviously bad rule writing, I do not understand AT ALL why people are freely rebasing their entire armies just for this shit show. Base adapters ok, so to still be able to play all the other RnF games which are simply BETTER just alone because they are much more balanced and do not have such stupid loopholes that allow linehammer for instance.
I mean for real, the contradiction here is gigantic!
It simply is meant to be a RnF game so with ranked up models in units because rank bonus is, or better to say, should be a thing! The "models that die cannot attack anymore" rule simply contradicts itself by this "all models not even in contact get 1 attack" rule. So there are these 2 rules that simply do not fit together in this ruleset at all and make it absurd. It does not only look silly, it simply is very bad contradicting rule writing that makes rank bonus obsolete while rank bonus in fact should be an important factor. So the core rules themselves simply have a rule that is destroying the whole incentive point of playing an RnF game with BLOCKS of units.
I mean... the game somewhat tells you "blocks are the way to go" and then the rules say "ah no, lines beat blocks"... just plain stupid thou and obviously a broken, not at all, thought about rule wormhole/blackhole/asshole thingy!
Well, I don't see it this way. TOW is a much better game with much better models for its mechanics. TOW has two things KOW lacks, choice and interaction. I've played a TON of 6th edition WHFB and a ton of KOW, and I like WHFB/TOW much, much better. The main test is real battles don't work like KOW battles; there are so many weird movements and interactions. It's fun, but it takes way too much suspension of disbelief.
You're welcome to dislike TOW, and I hope KOW continues on and grows.
Only got into warhammer fantasy because of total war
That's very interesting! I have not yet met someone who has come from the Total War franchise. Never into miniatures before?
I'm keen to get into KOW (come from other wargames) but in Australia KOW has such a small community. Not the games fault, but unfortunately warhammer dominates - hopefully this changes.
It is hard. Only the big games survive in the outback. My hometown in country Victoria has only 40K and AoS, there's not even Old World. Thankfully Melbourne has a decent KoW scene of 40-50 players all up.
Even Adelaide topped out at about 8 players when I was running events pre-COVID. I wish they were out there and gathering for games again.
Most of the smaller cities and the regional areas are completely GW games, which is fair, they're relatively easy to acquire. But maybe with old world taking off you never know! Would be good to have an excuse to go to Adelaide
I think for the first 6 months TOW will be busy getting core faction releases. After that it's a slow drip feed like all the other specialist studio games.
Considering how gw keeps purposely understocking their stuff, I'm not sure the main point stands unfortunately
It is profoundly understocked and also coming out way too slowly. But still people need Tomb Kings and there's a whole array of dry undead at Mantic 💀
@@CaffeinatedWarlord
So we show people what there IS (KOW) rather than what there isn't
Yes and no. GW games aren't really good entry games, in the sense that if you enter the wargaming hobby through GW ecosystem you are less likely to be exposed to other games than if you try any other first. It's kind of like with D&D, there has been an entire new generation of players who entered the roleplaying hobby through it, but only few of them noticed that there are other games and even fewer tried them. So certainly the awareness of rank&file as a way a wargame can be structured by will rise, but it does not necessarily mean the people who know the hobby only through that GW ecosystem will become even aware of the other games. Time will tell.
^This. Warhammer is less a gateway for wargaming, and more of a silo. If you're willing/able to overcome the barriers to entry GW erects around Warhammer, you end up stuck inside of it.
I can understand this argument, but even a tiny fraction of GW customers looking for something else is a massive boost to every other game. And in Australia, GW is the only (visible) game in town. We don't have many stores where KoW exists or can be played, because all we have are GW stores in most cities.
@@CaffeinatedWarlord I get that and it's not just Australia. I currently live in the UK and you can't get KoW in any of the hobby shops in Exeter, which is after all a capital of a county. So KoW doesn't really have that big of a distribution presence even in its homecountry. I just doubt TOW will inspire consumers and stores to look towards other games of that type in a significant manner.
About half of the kow players locally are whfb refugees or their kids...
They won't be going back... conquest and asoiaf have more cross over with kow than whfb will have if everyone over the weekend was being honest.
Not saying people won't be buying models. Several people are all in on that tombking box. But from the sounds of things they won't be playing old world.
I know I won't... I have my kow armies and my asoiaf armies and I am waiting on weaver courts for conquest.
We only have so much time. The streamlined rules of Kings of War mean I can really get into the tactics of the game. I just don't think I have the time for a game that needs the book to be used all the time.
The Weaver courts look pretty cool!
Rank and FILE wargaming has been around for a very long time, this video comes across as ill-informed.
I understand your point of view, but for the majority of new customers in the last two decades, it doesn't really matter that historicals were doing their thing because these new customers wouldn't know. They walk into a GW and find out about miniature wargaming. Pre-2015, this would at least include some Rank and File miniatures with WFB, but after 2015 it was gone. No new people would be cognizant of such gaming modes. Skirmish reigned supreme, with only the older customers having the memory or want of Rank and File.
Also I say rank and flank, like many, because it rhymes.
Do you really have to explain? 😂
I mean you're absolutely right, but then I wouldn't have had the fun of putting together this meme :D
@@CaffeinatedWarlord An absolute fair point.
KoW is a fine ruleset. It's Mantic's horrible minis that's the problem.
Have u checked out their recent releases? Night and day compared to their dwarfs and elves for example.
This was definitely a valid criticism 5 years ago, but the most recent sculpts rival modern GW, and they surpass old GW. Mantic Goblin Rabble, by way of example, are far superior to GW Goblins. If you're lacking good sculpts from Mantic, I would suggest inspecting the Ogre, Nightstalker and Twilight Kin ranges, as these are almost exclusively newer sculpts made in via Archon Studios, masters of HIPS plastic.
Old World sucks tho. Just like Kings of War. The models are so god damn ugly :D
Dem fightin' words! Old Mantic you'd be considered well within your rights to say but new Mantic (2019 to now) has put out some incredible sculpts. Halflings, Nightstalkers, Twilight Kin, Northern Alliance and Ogres are all good examples.
The problem is still going to be are people willing to play a non warhammer game a lot of people think warhammer is the only tabletop wargame. Hell GW is trying to get people to call it the warhammer hobby instead of the wargaming hobby to try and hide their competitors even more.
This will always be an issue but even if 0.5%, a tiny fraction, of old world players decide to try other games, that's a huge boon for other games, especially if they would never have reached those people without such a big draw card that Warhammer is