Both implements offer feedback. But with the heavy bag, there can be a tendency to think you have good punching power from the amount of swing you achieve, when the bag might be swinging more from the application of pushing power rather than the snap that a good punch should have. The makiwara has a spring action that gives more honest feedback from a snappy punch. Plus the flat surface factors into the differences too. Without proper hand wrapping, it's easy to turn your wrist on the heavy bag. The heavy bag more closely approximates the curvature of a human opponent. But the makiwara is a superior tool when it comes to hand and knuckle conditioning. The constant stress thickens your hands and the pronounced knuckles with the callouses would probably amount to being hit with a ball peen hammer. I saw a Shotokan master once whose knuckles looked like golf balls. I would hate to get hit by them. Makiwara training would probably be useless to a boxer or cage fighter but would be great for someone just wanting to be able to defend himself. Mas Oyama was one of the first traditional martial artists to incorporate both methods in his training.
I still have mine .Bought it in 1975 .Used it every day for years. Fist , Palm , edge of hand .It gives you strong powerful hands .No longer use it as am 80 now , but still have powerful hands from hitting it maybe 100 times a day using the 3 diff ways.I found at the dojo I could punch through most guys blocks .And broke a guys arm once in block punch training .If you want what they call a freight train punch then buy and use one .If nothing else its great exercise for breathing and getting the heart rate up.
For the nerds: For forward punches, the heavy bag gives you a rather smooth resistance curve, especially at the lower half of the bag, because of it's weight. The top half of the bag will give you a more exponential resistance curve because the downward weight and upward pull of the chain make it like pulling an arrow on a bow, but that target area is too high (above a human head). The bag feels great for just about anything except punch penetration training. This is where the makiwara comes in- it has a steeply exponential resistance curve just like a bow. For tameshiwari training, you're conditioning not just your knuckles and wrists, but also ALL the ligaments anchoring your tricep, deltoid and pectoral to your bones. When you train on the makiwara with driving force, you're throwing a ton of tensile force at all these ligaments and you need a more sustained power stroke over a longer period than the bag requires (it doesn't displace itself like the bag's mass. It has a sustained spring resistance against your arm). You're training to withstand ligament tearing, and you're training your brain and nerves with the technique to deliver this sustained power stroke. You're turning your fist into a runaway train that respects nothing in it's path.
Thank you for posting. It was very helpful and eye opening. I would like to see how your makiwara was mounted at the bottom. It looks very nice and springy.
Nice video. To add, one can punch the bag so that it does not push back listening to the sound pop harder and hopefully leave the force of impact inside the bag. Then you can alternately punch to push then punch to stop the bag. I use both the makiwara and the heavy bag. I find that the makiwara, besides conditioning the bones and programing bone alignment is good for that stabbing hit where you are hitting the ribs, and the bag for concussive punches to snap the head back for a K.O.. However, with conscious thought you can hit the makiwara to train for concussiveness and the heavy bag for stabbing effect. One just lends itself better than the other for either type. The advantage of the bag though, specially for hitting it without wraps and gloves is the ability to train combination punches and kicks approximating the human body. Imho.
Great video Noah, I have a couple questions for you. 1. What style of Okinawan Karate do you study. 2. Do you know of a good place to buy a decent makiwara board, for a decent price?
Shorin-Ryu (Kobayashi), primarily, but my full lineage is broken down on my website. I've always made makiwara, honestly--i actually made a video on it, recently, that you can check out :)
Hey Noah. Thank you for the info. Would like your opinion. Looking to start implementing some old school training and will be building a makiwara for the yard. I was going to go super cheap and easy and just sink a 2x4 in concrete then wrap the top with rope. I know this will definitely not give as much as a traditional makiwara and my body and bones will be taking a much larger toll. Was thinking that i would just have to keep that in mind and train at a much slower pace with the same effects. Thoughts?
Honestly, buying proper boards will not cost you that much more than a 2x4, and you don't have to set it in concrete if you just add two cross-bracing boards. Get a long 1x4 red oak board, instead, and cut it into three progressively smaller lengths that you can put together to make a leaf spring design. And if you're going to use rope, bundle it to make a proper pad, rather than just wrapping it around the wood. I have an overview of this process in my video on how to make a makiwara :)
In Okinawan Karate, do you guys hit with diagonal fist instead of horizontal in order for the top knuckles to hit first ? Also, when hitting with the top 2 knuckles in karate, what is backing the index knuckle? Thanks!
Typically, yes, and depends on the fist formation. I usually use a "farmer's fist" formation when punching, so the index finger is laid flat on the palm
There was also sagi-makiwara, the equivalent of today's sand bag, the main form of use is horizontal like a sand bag uppercut, but it can also be used vertically, each position has its function, the three types of makiwara complement each other for the development of kara-te techniques. Greetings from Chile
Sagi-makiwara are still in use, today, but they are typically made of logs, while the horizontal ones you describe were generally made of straw or bamboo bundles. Sunabukuro (sand bags) were also used, and popular in Chinese arts. All serve different purposes, and can be very useful!
@@ilpracticalkarate In his books, the master Motobu (WATASHI NO KARATE JUTSU) and Mabuni (KARATE DO NYU MON) they describe it as a sack filled in equal parts with sand and sawdust, lined with straw, about 30 to 40 kg, and the master Funakoshi; a bundle of straw eut about twenty-six inehes in length and tied in a bundle approximately thirteen inehes in diameter with hemp rope; then straw rope is wound all around it to make a makiwara of approximately twenty-five pounds total weight. Training with sage-makiwara is very interesting, regards ;)
I’m really liking the bb filled speed bag as another training tool in the dojo. I’ve got 5/16” steel balls coming to fill a more aggressive Makiwara. Makiwara conditioning. 28 pound speed bag filled with 32,000 steel bb’s. ua-cam.com/users/shortsn7-QyZlLabI?feature=share
Wall bags have no real give, at all, besides what little give is provided by the fill shifting or breaking down inside the bag. Works for conditioning, but not much else. The makiwara is, as I explained in the video, for developing structure and power. How you use it is up to you
Best bet is old clothes! If you can, pick up bags of old clothes from garage sales or thrift stores, especially if they are ones they would normally throw away because of holes or stains, because sometimes they will just give them to you. Cut them into pieces and pack them into the bag as tightly as you can, tamping them down occasionally with your foot or a board. If you need to add weight to it, you can get a 4in diameter length of PVC pipe, fill it with sand, glue caps on the end, and pack it into the center of the bag filling.
@@ilpracticalkarate 100 percent correct. The gym I use has shredded tshirts. Great video aside from the not knowing a heavy bag is resistance training.
Heavybag is just for endurance training, fitness without hurting own hands and legs. Makiwara is for TECHNIC IMPROVEMENT. WHEN NOT LIKE SPARTANIC CONDITIONING OF LIMBS, walk kata is as effective when do many repition for conditioning without polluting Technic. This can happen when focus on time and number of punches and kicks. Instead of the correct corner punch do a tired arm Punch. SPARTANIC CONDITIONING did wind a rope arounD stick so DAMAGE own limbs less, while punch correct, kick correct.
3 роки тому+1
Can you use two boards stack together while creating it?
If the bag is swinging too much your punches need work my friend! On the flip side, have you seen George Foreman hitting the bag back in the day? Quite reminiscent of makiwara training
I did mention the force distribution, vertically, but didn't get into it for purposes of this video. As I mentioned, though, the bag is still going to move away from you, regardless
That actually doesn't work all that well. Gravity pulls the weight down, which is not the direction of resistance on punches, and only for some kicks. Plus, if you do it too fast, you can damage your joints. Resistance bands are better.
I didn't say it provides NO resistance--it just doesn't provide PROGRESSIVE resistance through the strike. That 150lbs of resistance goes away quickly, as opposed to increasing as you drive through
@@ilpracticalkarate I can see that take for sure. Im thinking of popping it like a boxer. Where speed is power... I see your point from your perspective.
Noah, you missunderstand how you should hit a heavy bag, because you want to hit it like a makiwara. Actually you should NOT drive your punches through the bag but be precise an exact on the impact point. This way it does not swing as much and you develop even more punching power, than hitting a Makiwara.
@Where's Walshy this is really uninteresting even if you write it in BIG LETTERS. You just condition your hands. And not really healthy, not on a real makiwara. So you do this, but still have to hit a heavy bag, because you gain no punching power from it, throwing just lame punches on it.
@@ilpracticalkarate, actually it is quite a bite more complicated: At a Makiwara, of the type you use, you develop some punching power and a good alignment for some Karate punches like "Choku Zuki"-variants and their "Tate"-Versions, for example. But the power you develop after contact, by driving through the impact point, is more "pushing power", than "punching power". On a heavy bag, should not drive your punches into it. Your impact point should be (at least for punching) more exactly on contact to the surface. Especially "traditional" Karateka often punch to close, when they never had lessons on how to use the bag. I had to learn this myself, coming from "Shotokan" and changing to Kyokushin/Dutch Kickboxing where bagwork is more common than "Makiwara-Training". A good coach will always tell you: "Punch the bag, do not push the bag!". If you watch good Boxers/Kickboxers or Muay Thai practicioners, you will see that the bag swings only then, when they drive into it for purpose. One other thing: How "forgiving" an heavy bag is, depends on how heavy it is, but more important, how tight it is filled. The bag in your video is a very soft lose filled one. (I see how it behaves when you only push it) That is okay, but a more professional bag can be very solid and unvorgiving, compared to your bag.
Pushing the heavy bag is incorrect technique. Punches on heavy bag must snap with a quick retraction so that force penetrates the bag without returning back into your arm & wrist. If the heavy bag swings away from you you're technique is incorrect. The heavy bag should shimmer but not move away from you. If the heavy bag swings away from you it means you're pushing your punch and you should be snapping your punches into the target like a tightly rolled up wet towel being popped into the target but penetrating several inches deep then quickly retracted before the equal force can return into the limb. Isshin Ryu teaches this method of punching, as does western boxing, Israeli krav maga and other schools.
I was exaggerating so that people could understand my point, but I've noticed that seems to have resulted in people missing that point because they are so focused on the exaggeration. Yes, I'm well aware that the bag should bounce or shake, rather than swing, if you're striking it correctly. It still moves away from your strike without providing additional resistance, which is the point I'm getting at.
A larger target leads to less precision. When you hit I the bag I see that you do rotate your hips which is the core of Karate. Your makiwara is way too flexible to allow you to harden your knuckles properly. I would also suggest you look up round makiwaras. Lastly, you may want to look up Japanese pronunciation so you can pronounce makiwara correctly. Here is how makiwara training should look like: ua-cam.com/video/5tWRu_u1Yeg/v-deo.html
Training ONLY with a larger target leads to less precision, yes, which is why you train in a multitude of ways. Funny thing--not all karate rotates the hips, but my Sensei was fond of it. Makiwara isn't for hardening your knuckles, and I am certainly not using it for that purpose, I don't generally soften my "r" and "i" sounds with Japanese words when I am otherwise speaking English, and no offense to Jesse, but his makiwara is too stiff. Also, I am quite familiar with ude-makiwara, and have broken several.
These videos are for explanation, not showing off. If you "need action not talk," there are plenty of highlight videos you can find on UA-cam for your entertainment.
Both implements offer feedback. But with the heavy bag, there can be a tendency to think you have good punching power from the amount of swing you achieve, when the bag might be swinging more from the application of pushing power rather than the snap that a good punch should have. The makiwara has a spring action that gives more honest feedback from a snappy punch. Plus the flat surface factors into the differences too. Without proper hand wrapping, it's easy to turn your wrist on the heavy bag. The heavy bag more closely approximates the curvature of a human opponent. But the makiwara is a superior tool when it comes to hand and knuckle conditioning. The constant stress thickens your hands and the pronounced knuckles with the callouses would probably amount to being hit with a ball peen hammer. I saw a Shotokan master once whose knuckles looked like golf balls. I would hate to get hit by them. Makiwara training would probably be useless to a boxer or cage fighter but would be great for someone just wanting to be able to defend himself. Mas Oyama was one of the first traditional martial artists to incorporate both methods in his training.
Lyoto Machida would like a word with you regarding that cagefighter comment
I still have mine .Bought it in 1975 .Used it every day for years. Fist , Palm , edge of hand .It gives you strong powerful hands .No longer use it as am 80 now , but still have powerful hands from hitting it maybe 100 times a day using the 3 diff ways.I found at the dojo I could punch through most guys blocks .And broke a guys arm once in block punch training .If you want what they call a freight train punch then buy and use one .If nothing else its great exercise for breathing and getting the heart rate up.
For the nerds: For forward punches, the heavy bag gives you a rather smooth resistance curve, especially at the lower half of the bag, because of it's weight. The top half of the bag will give you a more exponential resistance curve because the downward weight and upward pull of the chain make it like pulling an arrow on a bow, but that target area is too high (above a human head). The bag feels great for just about anything except punch penetration training. This is where the makiwara comes in- it has a steeply exponential resistance curve just like a bow. For tameshiwari training, you're conditioning not just your knuckles and wrists, but also ALL the ligaments anchoring your tricep, deltoid and pectoral to your bones. When you train on the makiwara with driving force, you're throwing a ton of tensile force at all these ligaments and you need a more sustained power stroke over a longer period than the bag requires (it doesn't displace itself like the bag's mass. It has a sustained spring resistance against your arm). You're training to withstand ligament tearing, and you're training your brain and nerves with the technique to deliver this sustained power stroke. You're turning your fist into a runaway train that respects nothing in it's path.
The makiwara gives progressive resistance and also conditions your striking surface.
Excellent explanation of various points. After more than 50 years in martial arts, I have nothing to add to your explanations and demos. Oss.
Thank you for posting. It was very helpful and eye opening. I would like to see how your makiwara was mounted at the bottom. It looks very nice and springy.
Nice video.
To add, one can punch the bag so that it does not push back listening to the sound pop harder and hopefully leave the force of impact inside the bag.
Then you can alternately punch to push then punch to stop the bag.
I use both the makiwara and the heavy bag.
I find that the makiwara, besides conditioning the bones and programing bone alignment is good for that stabbing hit where you are hitting the ribs, and the bag for concussive punches to snap the head back for a K.O..
However, with conscious thought you can hit the makiwara to train for concussiveness and the heavy bag for stabbing effect.
One just lends itself better than the other for either type.
The advantage of the bag though, specially for hitting it without wraps and gloves is the ability to train combination punches and kicks approximating the human body.
Imho.
Great video!! Very informative
Great video Noah, I have a couple questions for you. 1. What style of Okinawan Karate do you study. 2. Do you know of a good place to buy a decent makiwara board, for a decent price?
Shorin-Ryu (Kobayashi), primarily, but my full lineage is broken down on my website. I've always made makiwara, honestly--i actually made a video on it, recently, that you can check out :)
Hey Noah. Thank you for the info. Would like your opinion. Looking to start implementing some old school training and will be building a makiwara for the yard. I was going to go super cheap and easy and just sink a 2x4 in concrete then wrap the top with rope. I know this will definitely not give as much as a traditional makiwara and my body and bones will be taking a much larger toll. Was thinking that i would just have to keep that in mind and train at a much slower pace with the same effects. Thoughts?
Honestly, buying proper boards will not cost you that much more than a 2x4, and you don't have to set it in concrete if you just add two cross-bracing boards. Get a long 1x4 red oak board, instead, and cut it into three progressively smaller lengths that you can put together to make a leaf spring design. And if you're going to use rope, bundle it to make a proper pad, rather than just wrapping it around the wood. I have an overview of this process in my video on how to make a makiwara :)
i recently started training with the makiwara find it to be excellent
In Okinawan Karate, do you guys hit with diagonal fist instead of horizontal in order for the top knuckles to hit first ? Also, when hitting with the top 2 knuckles in karate, what is backing the index knuckle? Thanks!
Typically, yes, and depends on the fist formation. I usually use a "farmer's fist" formation when punching, so the index finger is laid flat on the palm
There was also sagi-makiwara, the equivalent of today's sand bag,
the main form of use is horizontal like a sand bag uppercut, but it can also be used vertically, each position has its function, the three types of makiwara complement each other for the development of kara-te techniques. Greetings from Chile
Sagi-makiwara are still in use, today, but they are typically made of logs, while the horizontal ones you describe were generally made of straw or bamboo bundles. Sunabukuro (sand bags) were also used, and popular in Chinese arts. All serve different purposes, and can be very useful!
@@ilpracticalkarate
In his books, the master Motobu (WATASHI NO KARATE JUTSU) and Mabuni (KARATE DO NYU MON)
they describe it as a sack filled in equal parts with sand and sawdust, lined with straw, about 30 to 40 kg, and the master Funakoshi; a bundle of straw eut about twenty-six inehes in length and tied in a bundle approximately thirteen inehes in diameter with hemp rope; then straw rope is wound all around it to make a makiwara of approximately twenty-five pounds total weight. Training with sage-makiwara is very interesting,
regards ;)
I’m really liking the bb filled speed bag as another training tool in the dojo. I’ve got 5/16” steel balls coming to fill a more aggressive Makiwara. Makiwara conditioning. 28 pound speed bag filled with 32,000 steel bb’s.
ua-cam.com/users/shortsn7-QyZlLabI?feature=share
*Searches for karate specific topic* *always finds Noah*
Lol, sorry not sorry?
GREAT video 🙏
Thank you!
How would these compare to something like the wall rice bags in Wing Chun? Is the Makiwara more to train strikes for “breaking” things?
Wall bags have no real give, at all, besides what little give is provided by the fill shifting or breaking down inside the bag. Works for conditioning, but not much else. The makiwara is, as I explained in the video, for developing structure and power. How you use it is up to you
I just got a heavy bag. What would you suggest I fill it with for the best results. Thank you.
Best bet is old clothes! If you can, pick up bags of old clothes from garage sales or thrift stores, especially if they are ones they would normally throw away because of holes or stains, because sometimes they will just give them to you. Cut them into pieces and pack them into the bag as tightly as you can, tamping them down occasionally with your foot or a board. If you need to add weight to it, you can get a 4in diameter length of PVC pipe, fill it with sand, glue caps on the end, and pack it into the center of the bag filling.
@@ilpracticalkarate Thank you so much. I appreciate the help.
@@ilpracticalkarate 100 percent correct. The gym I use has shredded tshirts. Great video aside from the not knowing a heavy bag is resistance training.
sorry would you repost or add a link to your making a makiwara post?
ua-cam.com/video/HWSxuxE8Uog/v-deo.html
Heavybag is just for endurance training, fitness without hurting own hands and legs.
Makiwara is for TECHNIC IMPROVEMENT.
WHEN NOT LIKE SPARTANIC CONDITIONING OF LIMBS, walk kata is as effective when do many repition for conditioning without polluting Technic. This can happen when focus on time and number of punches and kicks. Instead of the correct corner punch do a tired arm Punch.
SPARTANIC CONDITIONING did wind a rope arounD stick so DAMAGE own limbs less, while punch correct, kick correct.
Can you use two boards stack together while creating it?
I have a 2 board and a 3 board makiwara
@@ilpracticalkarate do they hurt your arms when you strike them?
👍🏿,
like Master Higaonna!
If the bag is swinging too much your punches need work my friend! On the flip side, have you seen George Foreman hitting the bag back in the day? Quite reminiscent of makiwara training
I did mention the force distribution, vertically, but didn't get into it for purposes of this video. As I mentioned, though, the bag is still going to move away from you, regardless
Your basic physics need work.
Kyokushin Karate uses both so i have both
Aluminati did he say on the intro?
Astaghfirullah
Karate Illuminati, yes
I can make a punching bag at home just need a good teller
You did not throw in illuminate did you? Ha 🤔
Use weights to practice punching and kicking to develop power.
That actually doesn't work all that well. Gravity pulls the weight down, which is not the direction of resistance on punches, and only for some kicks. Plus, if you do it too fast, you can damage your joints. Resistance bands are better.
You are absolutely wrong about the heavy bag not providing resistance. It absolutely does. About 150lbs worth or whatever the bag weights.
I didn't say it provides NO resistance--it just doesn't provide PROGRESSIVE resistance through the strike. That 150lbs of resistance goes away quickly, as opposed to increasing as you drive through
@@ilpracticalkarate I can see that take for sure. Im thinking of popping it like a boxer. Where speed is power... I see your point from your perspective.
Noah, you missunderstand how you should hit a heavy bag, because you want to hit it like a makiwara.
Actually you should NOT drive your punches through the bag but be precise an exact on the impact point. This way it does not swing as much and you develop even more punching power, than hitting a Makiwara.
@Where's Walshy this is really uninteresting even if you write it in BIG LETTERS.
You just condition your hands. And not really healthy, not on a real makiwara. So you do this, but still have to hit a heavy bag, because you gain no punching power from it, throwing just lame punches on it.
I use the heavy bag in a variety of ways, including what you mention, but I'm specifically talking about training for power, in this case.
@@ilpracticalkarate, actually it is quite a bite more complicated:
At a Makiwara, of the type you use, you develop some punching power and a good alignment for some Karate punches like "Choku Zuki"-variants and their "Tate"-Versions, for example. But the power you develop after contact, by driving through the impact point, is more "pushing power", than "punching power".
On a heavy bag, should not drive your punches into it. Your impact point should be (at least for punching) more exactly on contact to the surface. Especially "traditional" Karateka often punch to close, when they never had lessons on how to use the bag. I had to learn this myself, coming from "Shotokan" and changing to Kyokushin/Dutch Kickboxing where bagwork is more common than "Makiwara-Training".
A good coach will always tell you: "Punch the bag, do not push the bag!". If you watch good Boxers/Kickboxers or Muay Thai practicioners, you will see that the bag swings only then, when they drive into it for purpose.
One other thing: How "forgiving" an heavy bag is, depends on how heavy it is, but more important, how tight it is filled.
The bag in your video is a very soft lose filled one. (I see how it behaves when you only push it) That is okay, but a more professional bag can be very solid and unvorgiving, compared to your bag.
Pushing the heavy bag is incorrect technique.
Punches on heavy bag must snap with a quick retraction so that force penetrates the bag without returning back into your arm & wrist.
If the heavy bag swings away from you you're technique is incorrect.
The heavy bag should shimmer but not move away from you.
If the heavy bag swings away from you it means you're pushing your punch and you should be snapping your punches into the target like a tightly rolled up wet towel being popped into the target but penetrating several inches deep then quickly retracted before the equal force can return into the limb.
Isshin Ryu teaches this method of punching, as does western boxing, Israeli krav maga and other schools.
I was exaggerating so that people could understand my point, but I've noticed that seems to have resulted in people missing that point because they are so focused on the exaggeration. Yes, I'm well aware that the bag should bounce or shake, rather than swing, if you're striking it correctly. It still moves away from your strike without providing additional resistance, which is the point I'm getting at.
A larger target leads to less precision. When you hit I the bag I see that you do rotate your hips which is the core of Karate. Your makiwara is way too flexible to allow you to harden your knuckles properly. I would also suggest you look up round makiwaras. Lastly, you may want to look up Japanese pronunciation so you can pronounce makiwara correctly. Here is how makiwara training should look like: ua-cam.com/video/5tWRu_u1Yeg/v-deo.html
Training ONLY with a larger target leads to less precision, yes, which is why you train in a multitude of ways. Funny thing--not all karate rotates the hips, but my Sensei was fond of it. Makiwara isn't for hardening your knuckles, and I am certainly not using it for that purpose, I don't generally soften my "r" and "i" sounds with Japanese words when I am otherwise speaking English, and no offense to Jesse, but his makiwara is too stiff. Also, I am quite familiar with ude-makiwara, and have broken several.
You talk to much sir , We need your action not your talk
These videos are for explanation, not showing off. If you "need action not talk," there are plenty of highlight videos you can find on UA-cam for your entertainment.