I considered Zeke’s plan less as a way to stop the suffering of future Eldians, and more that it was the least violent and destructive way to end the power of the titans. That being said, it seems that even in this universe human technology was quickly reaching a level that could negate titans anyway so even just freezing the founder away for a generation or two could probably solve the problem
@@literalmaverick8608 If we compare Zeke to people in the real world I would have to say he is probably most like Greta Thunberg. She is trying to get the world to replace fossil fuels with a Green New Deal. Most nations would refuse b/c we like living in an industrial society but their are people who would follow her example back into the stone age.
Wtf did I just read? A child promoting climate science is equivalent to a mass murdering anime character? Lmao imma need to take a bit from comments. I might have been accidentally drugged and this comment isn't real.
I feel like another main reason he's trying to stop the birth of Eldians is to put an end to the power of the titans which have been a major part of pain for the world, and to zeke if titans were gone there would be less suffering. While he's not completely wrong, titans are really just a product of human greed and power and everything that a titan has done has been because of a person pulling the strings from behind, whether it's the first king fritz forcing ymir to destroy nations or marleyans forcing children to inherit one of the nine titans, humans have been behind it all along so putting an end to titans would not end the cycle of hatred in the world because they were never the root
Completely agree with you. The ability to turn into a titan hasn't resulted in death by itself, its people in power using that ability for their gain. With titans gone, that will still be seen in some other way.
Could you imagine if 100 years ago the black slave decide to euthanise their kind juat because of their suffering life abuse by their white owner? Or if 80 years ago Jews decided to euthanise their kind just because the Nazi is about to give them the Holocaust hell for a distorted belief? Or Marley in thousands years ago decided to euthanise themselve just because Eldian empire is the ruler of the world during that period of life? None of those abovementioned examples make sense, hence neither do euthanising Eldian just because they could be turned into titan and be discriminated make any sense either on any possible moral ground.
@@JeusAlprime108 The difference between historically oppressed groups and Eldians is, say for example black people: black people had no advantage of any sort compared to white people, as they are all people and the only reason they were discriminated against was because of a visual difference as of the colour of their skin. In contrast, Eldians had the advantage of turning into titans of mass destruction so the aim of the Marleyans was to oppress them because they had this ability that, if not controlled, would eventually wipe out the rest of the world. The euthanisation of the Eldian race would allow the power of the titans to vanish and for humans to be equal in power again, and create a more even playing field in power across nations. The euthanisation of Eldians would result in a world like our current world: not exactly peaceful but would sure be a lot better than 9 people in the world (presumably controlled by military) having powers that would excel in any kind of destruction, and especially bad if a titan power got into the wrong hands. So in conclusion, the end of Eldians would actually benefit humanity as opposed to minority groups that hold no natural physical threat to others.
@@xod1a976 What you said is no different than what Gabi said to Kaya when Kaya first show Gabi her house where her mom die for Eldian sin because they could be titan, they terrorise upon the world hundred of years ago. Should Kaya's mom deserve to be genocide for such reason? Even Gabi come to the realisation in recently episodes that such thought is flaw, so why did you still persists on such belief?
Zeke is completely neutral, he needs to get rid of one side of humanity so everyone can stop suffering. He chose to euthanize the Eldians since he could manipulate their bodies so Eldians dissapear without actually killing them avoiding bloodshed. While eren decide to wipe out the other side, but committing genocide by crushing them (literally)
@@cronos4024 yes in order to save his friends and dear ones yes . These wars will not end until one sides dies. So it's either the world or the eldians . Eren chose to be a villain that's why it doesn't make sense . And that happens when no one believes in god and everyone are a slave to power . If there was a concept of god in aot . Eren would have never done that . Also marely had it coming don't you know what they did to Eren? That's the main concept war will never end because if these powers. That's why god doesn't give us extraordinary powers
@@SteveBufz It is bonkers that say that and even cram a religious message in there where there was none. First of all, the show isnt as simple as your feeble mind believes, so both sides would not have had to choose one to die, there could have been better options. And then the god thing.... WHAT? Religion is something the show explicitly portraits negatively! Whenever the faithful pray in their church for god to save them they are curshed by the female titan, god never hearing or caring enough to help them, making them some of the biggest fools of the show. Same with Historia rejecting the role as god because she doesnt believe the contricances and lies behind it. And your biggest point is that nobody would have done these horrible things if they believed in god?! WHAT?! DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH DEATH AND CRUELTY WAS AND STILL IS COMMITED IN THE NAME OF RELIGION?! Drom crusades to modern terrorist organizations or religion still opposing the happiness and progress of humanity by remaining anti gay or trans and so on. Religion is a tool for its heads to easily control the masses and justify their own power. Hunanity rejected that chain with the enlightenment and it granted us access to a age of progress and prosperity like no other. If anything AoT would have a message heavily against religion, because the world is cruel and god is a pacifist that wont save you or because he doesnt exist. Truly ridiculous statements you make here. And again, your justification for Eren to kill BILLIONS OF PEOPLE SO A FEW FRIENDS OF HIM SURVIVE is dangerous and ironically shows the evil and corrupt nature that religious people operate with under their exterieur. Edit: Oh and how telling that you generalise everyone in Marley to be deserving of genocide, even the good people and the Eldians that live there. Even the refugees Eren made good memories with and all other countries in the world that we cant assume hate Eldians equally or more universally. You just say they "had it coming", all of them, so just trample them all. Not just them, but nature too. Just erase all life beyond the Island from existance except surviving plants, deep sea fish and safe animals like birds or those that burry deep underground tunnels. It really is funny to me how the guy advocating the show to have a religious plea to be the one justifying the worst option the show had and clearly communicated that it was the worst option
@@cronos4024 it will be fun to debate but unfortunately my mom is going to take my mobile at night . First if people in aot believed that God is real why would they kill everyone? Even though they know it's wrong . Christianity and both Islam discourages it . There is no concept of AFTERLIFE in aot . Take a Muslim for an example they will die in the name of their god because they know that they will be granted heaven for it after clearing all the rights that they didn't fulfil. Let's take Muslims and Jews (Palestine and Israel) as an example. If Muslims had power to erase all the enemies of Islam they would do it ( Eren would do the same) but in Islam it's strictly prohibited . Basically it's the whole world vs the Muslim. Everyone would join forces to eradicate Islam . The only thing that was stoping Muslims to kill them was Islam itself . If they were not Muslims and the whole world is against them and they had the power to kill them all they would do it without a second thought. And also if you think that religion is a tool to control people and to enrage war . Then my friend if that was the case either the Muslims or Christians or the Jews or the Hindus would have still be killing everyone. If you think a true Muslim would do such a thing you need to rethink your beliefs about religions . If it was stated in Quran or bible or Geeta or Torah that kill everyone who doesn't accept Allah Jesus p.b.uh or Hindu GODs or Moses p.b.u.h . Then I or you would have been living in a basement to hide so that who ever has power won't kill us . The truth is everyone is worshipping something for some it's god for some it's money for some it's women for some it's pleasure for some it's immortality for some it's a good life . We just don't understand it . If religious people die then society would be dead because if someone non religious got power who worshipes more power or is a slave to power we would have been living in times where we have to obey all of his orders . Religions created honour of a MAN and that's why society will live until religious people die
your earlier video about SnK really opened my eyes about my own false understanding of the show I've been consuming! Even just going from "Eldians are an allegory for Jews" to "The treatment Eldians receive is akin to the treatment Jewish people endured, meaning the allegory is about the othering of marginalized people" made the show make much more sense. So truly, thank you.
I'm really happy that my refutation was able to change how someone viewed the series. Definitely means a lot to me. Thank you for the kind words and I hope you continue to enjoy my content. :D
My god, what an underrated channel. I went back and watched your xenoblade video aswell as a fan of that game. Supremely written scripts. I was a big fan of Zeke, and I loved the insight into anti-natalist ideology. Super interesting stuff. I hope you keep going until you succeed on this platform because I guarantee you will eventually. This shit is too good to fail.
I think Eren and Zeke both believe that the only possible futures are either one where all eldians are wiped out, or all non-eldians are wiped out. With that ultimatum I think Zeke presents the more moral option simply because it results in less death. Essentially the choice is to either let one ethnic group die or let all but one ethnic groups die. Personally I think both Zeke and Eren are morally wrong because I believe that there exists a third option. I believe that co-existence could be possible, although it would of course be extremely difficult, and probably still involve a significant number of deaths.
I think the focus on antinatalism misses the bigger picture of Zeke's plan. Zeke wanted to stop the curse of Titans/Ymir, which every Eldian has and is born with. As long as there were Eldians in the world, so too could there be Titans, who have caused an incalculable level of destruction and death/genocide throughout history. Zeke didn't want to sterilize Eldians because they being oppressed, and thus save them from suffering at the hands of others; it was about how Eldians were an existential threat to humanity by virtue of being able to turn into Titans, and the only way to eliminate titans would be to stop Eldians from being born. In this, I don't really see Zeke as an anti-Natalist; presumably if the curse of Ymir could be eliminated without this method, he would have accepted it.
I see where you're coming from, but when Zeke is initially talking to Tom about the plan, he says both: he says that Eldians are cursed and that titans should be wiped out, but he also stresses the immense levels of suffering that Eldians endure because of this. It seems from his comments, he wanted to sterilize the Eldians due to the fact that they were an existential threat, yes, but also due to the poor conditions that they must live in due to this. Now, whether Zeke is an antinatalist is definitely up for debate. I'm not sure whether he is or not, tbh. I know that he doesn't perfectly conform to David Benetar's definition, but because antinatalism can be adopted in so many ways, I don't wanna rule out the possibility that he conforms to some other definition. Especially considering the focus on the idea of suffering which results from birth. I do mention how Zeke focuses on the idea of "immense" suffering, and thus likely wouldn't suggest this idea about ALL people, just Eldians. But it's definitely an interesting discussion. Thank you for the thought provoking and in-depth comment! :)
@@literalmaverick8608 Yeah those are the 2 reasons he's doing it. I absolutely think it's a messed up plan. I'm a manga reader so I'm gonna save my other thoughts for when you'll are caught up
Lol manga readers! 😂 And I agree. I disagree with his plan for sure. I think it's intriguing how many people DO agree with it though. I think that's why it's important that more people openly discuss metaethics. So they can either see why they agree with him, or why they actually might not based on other ethical implications.
@@literalmaverick8608 Yes. That's one of the multitude of reasons I love AoT so much. It makes me think so much about the ethics and themes in the story and I can (oh it's could now 😢) think of so many theories. Then, I love watching videos of people with all kinds of perspectives on it and discuss with some friends about it. I could literally dicuss AoT forever
Thank you so much! I'm extremely happy that you enjoy my content! Also, Totally not Mark is fantastic, so it's insane that he was kind enough to shout me out. Really great dude.
@@literalmaverick8608 Personally I thought your response video missed the mark, but I really think you make amazing content, so you’ll see me around quite a bit!
We never had someone to come up with a completely correct plan in aot. We got Marley, who wanted to kill eldians and make them suffer too. We got Eren, who killed 80 percent of humanity. And we got this dude, who wanted to end a race, not by killing them or making them suffer. Logically judging, Zeke's plan had an upper hand here but it wasn't 100percent correct either.
I came from Totally not Mark's shoutout only to realize I've already watched your videos :). Just wanted to say I love your videos and you deserve more views, keep up the good fight my guy.
I was checking the views on this video and I was SHOCKED when I saw that it only had 7k. This video was entertaining/informative and it had really high quality. You should definitely have more subs and views
AHHH I'M SO GLAD YOU REACHED 1000! You really deserved it haha, I've been watching you since you released why Persona needed lgbtq representation. When I saw your last aot episode blew up I literally gasped- Hopefully, you'll get even more recognition you definitely deserve it. The quality of your videos and input is outstanding Honestly, aot ethics are like, sometimes too much for me to think about, but I definitely don't think I agree with Zeke's plan,,, Maybe I just finally need to start the manga like I've been planning to for months lmao
Lol thank you so much! I'm still wrapping my head around the idea that some people have actually been with me for a bit and actually enjoy my content enough to continue returning. So seriously, thank you so much for the encouragement and kind words. You're awesome and I hope you'll continue to stick with me through this wild UA-cam journey! Lol.
Only through seeing discussions about AOT did I discover people insane enough to unironically support ideas like mass genocide and sterilisation, even if in just a fictional context. That's kind of impressive.
To be fair, I think show's like AoT attract that type of discussion because of the topics that the show discusses. Some fans still do surprise me tho. Lmao
Idk thought, in the context of aot I think Zekes plan is the best option on the table. Unless there was a way to use the founder to remove the eldians ability to transform into titans, then getting rid of the eldians ability to reproduce would get rid of titans forever.
I could never agree with Zeke's plan. What he wants to do is just genocide by another name. For that same reason, I also don't agree with Eren and the Rumbling. Both options open to us right now are utterly horrific, and while on a smaller scale, I'm not always opposed to choosing the lesser of two evils, but this is just not a choice I think anyone should ever be allowed to make on such a large scale. I believe that genocide, in any form and for any reason, can never be a moral choice, and can never be right. Where I CAN actually choose is between the individual philosophies of Zeke and Eren, divorced from their plans. Zeke, thanks to his immense childhood trauma and self-hatred, believes that the essence of life is is suffering. Eren believes that the essence of life is freedom, specifically the freedom to make choices. Choices about what to do, but also choices about how to feel and deal with the things life throws at you, surrering and happiness alike. For that reason, I don't think he'd ever actually agree with a sterilization plan, since it deprives all possible future generations of Eldians from that freedom to make those choices and thus goes against his most fundamental belief. Here is where I'm firmly on Eren's side. Zeke just wants to die. And to be honest, I really don't blame him. I don't even blame him for the horrendous world view he's developed due to this. O blame him for what he does, but not for why he does it. But I myself have to believe that there's something more to focus on in life than suffering. I have to believe that my choices in life MATTER. I have to believe in that freedom. Otherwise, I might as well lay down and die right here. I think it's absolutely incredible that Attack on Titan manages to pose such highly... touchy... questions as "Can racism or genocide be morally right (and when could it be justified)?" and gets away with not just asking those questions in the first place, but _actually getting people to debate on it fiercely to the point that there's tons of people who'd answer "yes"!_ That takes an incredible amount of guts. While some critics of this story see this as an endorsement of these philosophies, it's actually anything but. After all, the show, while never shying away from portraying horrific things, never depicts those things as morally right. It clearly shows the terrible consequences. But it also doesn't necessarily show those who fight against these things as morally right either. Rather, it shows that everything that happens, no matter how good or bad we label it, has a reason behind it. Moreover, the story divorces the grander scale from the individual in a way that shows how no matter how good, bad or morally grey we are, we are all capable of doing good and terrible things. While you can agree with a person's philosophy or at least understand them, you can fundamentally disagree with how they act on it. In this way, Attack on Titan doesn't make a definitive judgement. It doesn't purely moralize, it simply observes, presents the facts and lets us draw our own conclusions. And that is something that I don't think I've ever seen done this boldly and this well before. That, to me, is the thing that makes this story stand head and shoulders above almost all the rest.
Well without some magical 3rd option, your choices are wipe out half of humanity or euthanize your people. Bottom line Zeke just has the most reasonable plan to end an issue that's been ongoing for centuries and probably will keep going without making either of these choices.
Very well written video this and your response video to JustWrite have shown you as an exceptionally talented writer and I look forward to viewing more of your content and viewing your previous work
The suffering of existing Eldians who are denied having children is much much less than the suffering that would occur for any Eldians born into the world we see - yes it's awful that some people won't be able to have biological kids following Zeke's plan but no, their pain at being denied that possibility is not nearly as large as the pain felt by a child brought into a world where 80% of humanity hates them for something they can never change about themself (and realistically the world will never stop hating them for it because the fear of Titans/Shifters and the threat they pose is quite a valid one in the AOT universe) Also as an anti-natalist myself, I don't consider the pain of not having biological children as a valid counter because having a biological child/creating a new human is doing an act that they have not asked you to do, they cannot consent to your doing it, and they are harmed by your doing it (or at least opened up to the guarantee of harm and possibility of pleasure). There is no non-selfish reason for making new humans. (and let's not forget that children in need of families already exist for anyone looking to be a parent) + On the flip side there are multiple good arguments for not killing existing humans (the act of letting them live is one they'd ask you to do, one they'd happily consent to you doing, and one that introduces no harm to them or anyone they know/love by being done)
Not an anti-natalist or anything, but in the case of the curse of the titans, I think Zeke's plan is still the lesser evil compared to what Eren wanted, and how the curse ended the way that it did. I'm not a parent and am not in a point in my life where I am choosing whether or not to have kids, but I don't see the not having kids thing as THAT much suffering. I think if the Eldians used the wall titans all the way through to the end of their lives, they would be able to live peacefully, and the Eldian race (and more importantly the ability to make more titans) would naturally end. I just think that's much better than roughly 80% of ALL LIFE being wiped out, just because Eren wants his friends to have long lives and be remembered as heroes.
In a way when you look at them outside the box and forget of what we know about Eren and Zeke as people so far. I think at first glance Zeke's plan would've been the most beneficial and logical to everyone, it kinda is. Meanwhile Eren's seems selfish, if you don't know Eren personally, just being some crazy guy wanting to wipe out human race to save his friends and his own country/island. But it's ironic how everyone in the fandom seems to think opposed, like Zeke being the crazy one with such plan and Eren being right to kill the human race.
But anyways people hate eldians right, so even if they were sterilized would take atleast a 100 yrs to go extinct and why would the rest of the world wait for 100 yrs they might just throw a nuke at them and boom it's over. In a recent episode, Zeke said that he would sterilize first and use the rumbling later if needed but that's the point, with technology developing around the world the one and only weapon that eldia has is the rumbling .
@@blackcat80yearsago96 Zeke's plan is completely unrealistic and anyone who would agree with his plan would be dead right now if there was only one race being hated by the entire world.
This video is really great analysis! One thing that I think is really important when considering this story is the ultimate cruelty inflicted by Isayama on Eren: Eren WANTS to do this. That's the ultimate tragedy of his character. He sees this fixed timeline laid out in front of him, it horrifies him and detaches him from his own humanity, and then he spends the rest of his life coming to grips with the fact that he IS doing this of his own free will. Isayama has written a character who's primary motivation differs from what he would consider a happy life, and he has trapped this character in a fixed timeline and shown them a terrible future. This is a REALLY interesting concept for a character, and I think that it makes Eren's SOLUTION to the problem of the Titans far less interesting to morally ponder by comparison. The solution to the Titans and the events that lead up to it are essentially set in stone, by the rules of the story being in a fixed timeline. It is an impossible moral question by design and there IS no other solution to the problem of the Titans, this is the only one that solves it. I think what IS worth critically analyzing is basically everything else, especially the other characters and the way they view the impossible moral questions they're faced with. Your video is basically exactly what I wanted! Thank you so much for taking the time to talk about this series through this lens, I will be thinking about the questions Isayama poses for a very long time.
I don't think either Zeke or Eren's plans are "big picture" plans. They're flawed with bias, created through trauma. But when it comes to the question of "kill or be killed?" I'd kill. I'd prefer Eren's plan. BUT if Erwin were still alive, I think we would have a leader with the foresight, experience & intelligence for more middle-ground. Personally I think Marley was a threat to the world & needed to be brought down. The rest of the nations could possibly be reasoned with. War & conflict seems to be an inevitability for humanity. But without Marley in the picture, I don't think Eldia would face genocide.
Whilst I thoroughly agree, I still think the world would need to be brought down. Those people were crying tears of joy at the words of war being brought upon Paradis. Whilst yes, maybe Marley did great damage to the Eldian name and thus Paradis, the rest of the world have boxed Paradis as irredeemable just as much, if not, MORE SO. It’s stated that the outside world hates Eldians even more than Marley, so the whole world probably needed to come down. The situation was always going to be kill or be killed. That world of aot was never even going to listen to peace talks
@@APsGTG The world today isn't listening to peace talks either. Its a cruel world filled with corrupt governments trampling the weak under foot. Alliances are for vested interests. Rarely humanitarian aspirations. The rich & powerful grow moreso, while the poor grow more poor & distracted. The people are quick to hate based on propaganda or have a naive hope that peace can be achieved with honeyed words. What Eldia has is the equivalent of a nuclear deterrent (The Rumbling) that they would be using on a nation that is CURRENTLY using titans to conquer other nations. This is in a world where nuclear arms don't yet exist. Nobody wants to go to war with THE nation that could end their existence on a whim. I don't think "peace" is an option in this world. But deterrence from war & finding respite/understanding in the time between conflicts is possible. Thats more of what I could see being achieved. If the world is foolish enough to not hear out Eldia, then yeah... they're dead. 😅
Eren attacked marley,and the world still allied themselves with marley,realistically everyone in those nations including the people who now sympathize with eren (Reiner annie,and before he was killed bertholdt) and gabi and the new candidates would be dead.
I think that antinatalism isn’t a great frame on its own for understanding Zeke’s ideas, I think it’s better to see it as Nuclear Nonproliferation with anti natalism as the means to stop proliferation. If you look at Eldians as walking talking WMDs it suddenly makes more sense to say “we have to stop production ASAP” because in a world with nukes (like ours) the nuclear powers are always paranoid that people that they don’t like will gain access to that power and non nuclear powers are always paranoid that they will be destroyed or subjugated by the people with nukes & are thus driven to seek the nuke to protect themselves which validates the paranoia of the Nuclear powers. & furthermore the power of nuclear weapons is so great that the more weapons that exist in the world increases the likelihood that a conflict that brought all that power to bear would decimate humanity & leave the land a smoking pile of rubble. We know from the rumbling that it really is possible for titans to do that kind of planet scale damage, & we see from Marley’s various international conflicts and their anti-eldian apartheid regime the way that the presence of Eldian WMD’s drives aggression, paranoia & bigotry within Marley & in the realm of International politics within the world of AOT so we can apply nuclear non-proliferation arguments to AOT pretty straightforwardly. Zeke is right
Solid point, I think the focus on antinatalism was pretty off from what Zeke's actual intentions are and at the end of the show I think it's clear he had the best plan
Except he isn't, the Titan curse is lifted at the end of the series without causing Eldian extinction, by killing the founding Titan. The reason Zeke wanted to sterilize Eldians is because of his hatred of his own people and their history, there were other ways to eliminate titans.
As an anti-natalist if we could press a button and erase everyone from Earth, I would. If we were all zapped out of existence, there would be nobody to feel that loss.
That also means any day you’ve ever spent happy would be wiped out of existence too. There’d be nothing. So much nothing that you couldn’t even fathom that there is nothing. The same way how you could never picture a new colour. That kind of indifference
I disagree with Zeke's plan. Suffering isn't necessarily a bad thing; it often serves as contrast to all the good in life, and gives greater meaning and context thereby. But, more than that, I simply find the idea of demanding a whole people to roll over and die for the good of everyone else to be abhorrent. Everyone deserves to live. Everyone deserves the chance to live. And everyone has the right to fight for their life, and the lives of those whom they love.
@@arushan54 'Suffering isn't necessarily a bad thing', I meant that, and I provided my reasoning as to why. Hardships breed resilience, and the pain and difficulties in life is what allows us to appreciate all the good. Dying isn't the same thing as killing. Zeke's plan is a slow genocide, but it is a genocide nonetheless. It's a nihilistic surrender that ends with all Eldian's powerless, hopeless, weak, and then dead.
@@jordanfitzmaurice6658 That's a bad take, I know its nice to believe cliche's like 'What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.' But scientifically speaking trauma worsens mental health. Never a good thing
Superb Analysis,I came to the same conclusions you did as well so this only reaffirmed my beliefs but it was still an awesome watch.As an anime only I was taken aback by that episode initially only rating it a six(I don't think I've ever given anything below an 8 to titan)cause I believed the show was supporting his arguement by having Eren(who comes from a much much different background)think that it's the "sole salvation".After a week of thinking about it and hearing it said back by Ultra Simp Yelena I came up with the counter arguements you mentioned here and also realized that it is contradictory for Eren to believe what he is saying(Since his whole deal is Freedom wouldn't he be denying all Eldians their freedom of choice by establishing himself as a righteous authority?).Now it's one of my favotite episodes just because it managed to shake my beliefs and made me think of why I strongly believed it was wrong as soon as I heard it. You should definitely do more philosophical analysis on AoT,it gives us so many different perspectives it's actually insane.I haven't seen many shows that don't have any heroes or villains but instead portray the circumstances of their upbringing as the cauze of their beliefs. Curious,What do you think Levi is up to at this point? What's driving him forward after losing Erwin and having his own morality shattered for a second time by the basement?Am I missing something or is Isayama really not giving as much Levi as need?(Although the shot of him shaking his head for his choice to save eren every time is priceless).On one hand I want to experience the anime on first viewing but on the other not getting spoiled is too difficult lmfao
Completely agree! I think the show often forces us to look inward, and I really enjoy that. As for Levi, I'd probably say a sense of duty and meaning. In the forest, we see Levi question what all of this has been for; saving Eren, his friends dying, and Erwin dying. But I think Levi continues to fight because he believes that it has to mean something. That those of his friends that have died, meant something. So he continues to fight for them and fight for a future where people like them can live without fighting. At least, that's what I think.
Personally, I get very uncomfortable seeing people agreeing with Zeke. As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter if you think you are doing a racial group a service by committing an act of genocide onto them... you are still committing an act of genocide. And what's more, is the fact that Zeke fundamentally is using his experiences to assume that he knows better than all other Eldians. You can't rationally use your own personal experiences to say that someone else's is invalid. Those were my thoughts when first learning about Zeke's ideas anyway. Nonetheless, this was an awesome and very insightful video. You are criminally under subed. Keep up the awesome work :)
Love how complex and layered Attack on Titan has become. Now we are faced with the Rashomon effect, where each side of this vast geopolitical war thinks they are correct. As Eren said, "If all that was to save the world, then you didn't have much choice." The introduction of technology that is on the verge of making titans obsolete is important. If eldians really did pose a threat that could cause another thousand-year war, the sterilization argument gains some footing. But, as it stands, titans are slowly becoming obsolete as a means of war, and the only real threat to humanity is the "Rumbling". So, the genocide/serialization argument gets weaker since in a mere generation, eldians wouldn't pose any threat to mankind. People could get back to killing each other with bigger, more destructive weapons.
Well, that's true, but they would still be leading horrible lives where they are oppressed and living in concentration camps for God knows how many generations.
Yes, well, Zeke's goal is correct at least. It would be just as ethical in our world if there was some genetic disease that turn people rabid at 30 or whatever, that 100% transmits by procreation.
Very interesting. I think it heavily depends on the ethical framework to determine if that example would be ethical. Like, a deontologist would say that sterilizing an individual would be unethical, regardless of if they had a rabid disease or became titans, because they would say that individuals have a fundamental right to not be harmed in that way. But I'm interested, how far can your example go? Does this only apply to titans and rabid diseases, or genetic disorders that inflect heavy suffering but aren't a guarantee when giving birth? So my question is-and this is a difficult one lol-based on your rule, would it be ethical to sterilize everyone that has a severe genetic disease because they have the chance of passing it down? Very interesting philosopical ground here. Thank you for the comment. :)
@@literalmaverick8608 If the chance of tranmission was guranteed and the disease as harmful as titanism, then yeah ofc. The way I see it Zeke could've been the third Dr Jaeger,ironically enough. Wotking to contain and eliminate the greatest plague in human history. The problem is the forming of a nation and identity over that disease, which turns a health issue into a racial issue.
I think antinatalism generally speaking is almost certainly a bad idea. There are plenty of cases of good parents raising happy healthy children. However I am bipolar and I while I am a good guy, The fact my condition is hereditary, and comes with some of the greatest moments of suffering imaginable (example, experiencing a metaphorical hell that feels mentally literal.) . As well as the fact that bipolar puts one at risk for traumatizing behavior, such as manic episodes. You can make a very strong case that bipolar individuals, in particular bipolar 1, should not have children, unless they prove themselves stable for a number of years. And even in the case of long term stability, the high risk of passing on this chaotic and dreadful mental illness is hard to justify in any way. And I suppose that is what Zeke was thinking, his people can be turned into literal weapons of war, and when they are titans, his people cant help but inflict suffering on others, its in their titan nature. Although his methods fall apart, in my eyes, when you realize he could have just taken away the ability to turn into titans away from the eldians.
Well a facet of antinatalism is that there is not really such a thing as "happy healthy people", in that a human has more pain in their life than they do pleasure, especially if you add up all the small innate pains of life (spending most of your time doing chores, performing mandatory bodily functions, doing things that do not bring you pleasure). Human brains are selective in their memorization of events, and we remember negative events more than positive ones, leading to the suffering being further amplified. So in a sense, the human condition itself is mostly unpleasant for the vast vast majority of people. I don't think he could even undo the ability for Eldians to turn into titans, mostly because it's an innate quasi-biological trait (I don't think being Eldian is purely genetic, since every Eldian's child with a non-Eldian becomes a Subject of Ymir) and if someone gained the power of the founding titan in the future they could undo what he did, plus it would likely lead to Eldians being murdered en masse worldwide, with some surviving to continue the Eldian legacy of living miserable, pained lives full of oppression and hatred. To the outside world it would not be possible to prove that Eldians were no longer a threat, so they would be treated as one indefinitely.
@@boianko Well that's the problem with antinatalism. It turns life into an equation written by a toddler and completely denies the human condition. The fact that there's more pain than pleasure is a bad thing because... ?????
@@xenn4985 Because pain is unpleasant and causes suffering, therefore it is bad. The question antinatalism asks is a pretty good one though. Is life even worth living if it's going to be mostly suffering?
@@boianko I think a more wacky argument is that babies live in a sort of paradise but when you concieve them, they are snatched away from that paradise and thrown down to earth, and they'll never return, after they die it's just void. Also there's no way to guarantee your child won't end up getting tortured and murdered, and the risk of that is not one we have the moral right to take.
In the theme of anime, any moral dilemma I find in my life I answer with one simple question - "What would Kamina from Gurren Lagann say?", and boy, would he be pissed just because I made this question... Battles and fights are supposed to be hard, and I feel Attack on Titan drilled into our minds that the fights that happen in it are specially hard by showing us all the gore and loss all the time, but that's the trap we shouldn't fall into in life. Bringing back my boy Kamina, technically he and his crew went through a way bigger quest than Zeke or Eren (we just don't see blood and gore because the themes are different, but still, the scale of Simon's saga is amazingly bigger), but he looked at it another way. He lived in that shit village all his life without access to the sun, which could compare to Eren's walls or Zeke's parents, but never lost hope on breaking the sky, an ambition as big as the Jaeger Bros. Kamina then got a powerfull way to break through the oppression and actually went through with his plan, which again are parallel to stuff that also happened in Attack on Titan. The biggest difference in all of this is how he looked at his problems and how he confronted them - with hope and the will to change all of it. "Ah, so that's it, we just need hope and we're all good and dandy!" - NO, absolutely not. Again, battles and fights are supposed to be hard, so even Kamina had casualties, and he never even got to get through with it all to the end, but he had the will and hope that inspired all of his future! To a more delicate subject, to which I realise I am not qualified to speak that much about so I'll make it quick - what if this question was asked towards the black slaves that came from Africa to America in the XVI century? Not so debatable now, huh... I'm not even gonna say if the suffering they endured back then was worth anything at all, because by god how they suffered, but still - black people are finally getting their place in society after all this history of brutality, and to hope that people in our future will end up always getting better lives then who stayed behind kind of kills off Zeke's plan to me. I just wanna end this whole talk by saying that I recently got back to thinking this Kamina argument and it's been going great in my life. I'm no Eren, I'm no Zeke, no Kamina.... I'm not even black! But to each their battles, and I kind of lost mine - I killed myself in 2019. I had this whole "the future suffering will end" idea when I did it. My "suffering motive" was pretty low compared to all that I said here, but still, where will you cross a line? Is it even worth it crossing a line when we're talking about something so long like future generations of people? Can I say the same for my own life when I took it 3 years ago, knowing that I can actually live for 50 more? Would it be worth it for Eldians to enter a war with Marleyans, spending 2 to maybe 3 more generations of fighting, to end up solving this with diplomacy for the future generations to come? Battles and fights are supposed to be hard, and by no means I'll say that the casualties in them are worthless, but I say we should have more hope and always keep fighting, so that this moment of war becomes a page in history books compared to the greatness the future holds for everyone! So yeah, screw Zeke's plan, and most importantly, screw Eren's dumb plan.
10:57 I don't agree that we should only care about the suffering of those in the now, and that it will help the people of tomorrow. Climate change for example, will undoubtedly harm those in the future who many have not been born yet, but it will take a while, so to maximize the current happiness it would be best to not really care about or be limited by the risks of climate change, being "eco friendly" is hurting a lot of people that are desperate for money to feed themselves. You could argue that climate change is close enough to effect current generation, but thats not the point. Admittedly I didn't watch whole video, just few secs near end so may have missed something cuz I'm pretty busy rn, so might have missed something idk, maybe i'll watch whole later.
Compared to Eren's plan Zeke's plan was very peaceful and effective. From the second ending we know Eren's plan didn't work and war is still going on with Eldia vs the world.
To be fair, Zekes Plan would also kill the marleyans. They are at war with the World and would lose without the titans. So yeah, both plans have no effect on the existence of War
@@truesheltopusik1140 because it's the realistic option rather than to take away every womans ability to have children,90 percent of the world would agree with mass genocide (me being one of them),we aren't some cops who lived our whole lives to fight for justice, marley fights for worse and the world is no better, paradis was the only real innocent nation after what happened because Reiner and bertholdt couldn't stop fighting
@@kyledeguzman5196 paradis is not "innocent", they started the whole thing, yes those individuals are dead, and currently they are innocent, but so are most of the people in the outside world. And it's not taking the ability of every woman to reproduce, it's just a very small portion of total population, I'm sure if you asked anyone not watching AOT it would be the better option than mass genocide.
Suffering isn't always bad, and it isn't always moral to end it. For example a lot of healing processes cause pain, yet make the body more healthy and more powerful, like growing or healing bones, or physical therapy from a serious injury. Suffering directs people to better their station in life, which makes things better for them, therefore making the suffering not wholly evil. Practicing a sport or skill, with accompanying physical pain, leads to excellence and betterment, in direct proportion to the suffering endured, arguably making the suffering good, because it was for the sake of something better. Mental suffering, such as overcoming trauma or facing your own toxic behaviour can make you a stronger and better person. Creative work can be suffering, when you are stuck with a story or a work of art, but will make many people's lives better. You can't even conclusively argue that all suffering is harmful or bad, it's a great motivator for becoming a better person. (On a personal note, I suffer from chronic pain, which would cripple me, if I did nothing about it. No amount of drugs completely takes my pain away. The only remedy is exercise, which causes me pain and suffering, but the pain also is relieved by the excercise and by continued practice. So for me a philosophy that suffering is bad, is just impossible to understand or to consider, it is only because of suffering that we can gain the strength to continue.)
Eren”s plan makes sense as humans gave birth to the titan power Ymir was a by product of our greed and the only way it could be stopped is by killing everyone. Zeke thinks that freeing them from the curse of Ymir would ultimately make them free but no humans would still find something to destroy peace . So actually eren is killing the root cause and that is humans themselves .
9:45 Me a negetive utilitarian and EFIList: yes actually but only if those are the 2 options. Preferably gene editing and mass sterilization for the animals while af first targeting none key stone species. While humans voluntarily go extinct. Antinatalism is correct and incorrect as it ignores the animals as well as general negetive utilitarian values. But, I agree with it in general. That humans shouldn't reproduce, besides systematically, with the only goal of human reproduction being to continue humanity long enough to end animal life, and then we can die out. Obviously yeah the chances of humanity getting on board with this are nearly nothing but aye. No suffering is better than suffering
I agree to some extends. Like I belive that the word in a whole would be better of without humenkind. Still I wont kill people like Zeke did, because for me. What's important for me is being able to talk to people that have simillary ideologi like me. While Zeke and I share simillary ideologi, I belive that killing people without their consent just because it's dosent fit my ideologi is just wrong
Something I just wanted to point out: you mention that through sterilization, one’s consent to have this procedure done on their reproductive organs is done without their consent which you argue is a bad thing. While I think that’s fair, you don’t seem to acknowledge that the same can be said for every person who has been born. Idk about you, but I don’t remember anybody asking me before I was born if I wanted to be born. I was just born because my parents made that decision for me without taking my perspective into consideration. For me, I compare it to how we discuss that “silence isn’t consent” during sex. If that can be said about sex, than an unborn child’s “silence” (or inability to consent) cannot be taken as consent. Thus, in this framing, this makes the parents the “oppressors”, not at all considering the consent of the child and simply giving birth for selfish reasons. Taking away a parent’s ability to commit this act against the consent of the child can therefore be ethically dicey and I can see arguments for it going either way, although I’m personally more sympathetic to the consent of the unborn child as I’m definitely someone who wishes they remained unborn. That doesn’t mean btw that I don’t enjoy my life b/cuz I definitely do, just that being birthed itself is ultimately meaningless and it wouldn’t have made a difference to unborn me had I stayed unborn. I think with Zeke, his actions are more in line with eugenics while his underlying ideology is more antinatalist, making judging his actions as ethical or non-ethical more based on your perception of what you think is more important to consider in ethics: actions or thoughts? In my view, actions always come first. As an antinatalist, I cannot ever condone Zeke’s goal as it was only ever focused on a single race and even if I did for whatever reason agree, he would have only been in the right had he succeeded, which he didn’t. Without him succeeding, all he did was cause massive amounts of suffering for, ultimately, nothing. Definitely an interesting topic tho. Quality video my dood 👌
Its like trolly problem would you save more people or save person who is close to you. zeke plan is to sacrifice millions to save billions with mercy and eren wants survival of eldians over countless lives. I was facinated with the idea of ozymandias (from watchmen)plan to sacrifice of some to save protect other whole in long run but you will do anything in order to protect yourself and your close ones. to be honest marley had it coming using titans to conquers other for their means treating eldinans like shit, zeke plan was noble ones but opressors should't go unpunished they should face the penance of their sins
Well, I have no idea if you even receive notifications on 10months or so old videos but here's my take. First of all, I disagree with the manichean approach of a lot of people in the comments. Well I don't disagree with the general idea that Zeke's plan was not only focused on antinatalism for the sake of the Eldians, but it doesn't mean that he took this idea out of his equation. What i'm trying to say is that one doesn't delete the other one, he saves the world from Titans AND saves future Eldians from suffering. "sad Naruto on his swing, 😢:( 😢* Okay I have your attention again. I would agree with you on the anti-antinatalism part, particularly since the suffering and the number of unborn beings is an unknown, having it in your moral compass is just irrational. Aaaalso, it completely neglects any spiritual or religious approach to life. Aaaaalso, it rationalize human experience in a certain of units of suffering vs units of pleasure and I think life is a bit more complex than that. The last run you have when you really have to take a shit is pretty much enjoyable, you took expected pleasure from taking a near-future dump and injected it in what should have been an uncomfortable running experience. what i'm tryna say is that the line between pleasure and pain is also blurry. @bdsm where u at?
I don’t disagree with the asymmetry argument, but I see it as more of an argument for Negative Utilitarianism, and not necessarily Antinatilism. If the pleasure experienced from conscious beings during their life alone outweighs the pain they experience, then they don’t even need the good of non-pain to make life worth living.
I see where Zeke is coming from and antinatalism as a whole but there’s always that fear of missing out. People that might’ve been born in the future might miss out on something grand.
Don't think antinatalism is a good representation of what's going through Zeke's head. Another comment explained it better but there's more to Zeke's plan than just preventing the further suffering of his own people...
I've replied to another comment as to why I disagree. But even in the latest episode Zeke makes it very clear that his ultimate goal is to "end the cycle of suffering" he even explicitly says so. So I don't find the antinatalism comparison to be completely irrelevant and off the mark.
All I’m sayin is Zeke is Uncle Ruckus, the warriors and Titan holders had the power to drop Marley, but Zeke wanted the easy way out. Let’s be real LMAO
Comparing the premises of both eren and zeke's plans neither in my opinion are in positions to talk about morals on account both share a similar result in the prevention of life acting on. Eren just so happens to act on the defensive followed by retaliation while zeke acts on the offensive followed by passiveness of circumstance. True life holds it's weight of suffering but never is it anyone's call to pull the plug on reproduction even if the ones that could be conceived are born of a particular raice, humanity is surrounded by a number of apex predators that could do a number on humanity but like wild animals titans arguably could be dealt with without having to act on the expense of those who could turn into titans. If nothing else the true problem isn't even the titans, it's those who lack the rein of the titans who're the issue. Power hungry characters being human where it's self centered acting aggressive towards those who simply want to center themselves in their own setting where at best it's isolating. If nothing else it'd be more sensible for both sides to simply disarm their war weapons from eldian territory and outside territory. Once more to seal the deal just schedule a event where the last known shifter titans are publicly seen dying before both raices to ensure trust betweenboth sides. I get that in order for one to feel safe there'd have to be something to act safe against but if the threats are removed from the equation there's no longer a excuse for ethier to act unnecessary towards the other. Specifically by removing active pure titans from the open field, removing the means to turn into shifter titans and removing weapons designed to lower populations. It's potentially wishful thinking I'm aware, but long as the concerns are present anyone will act on a one sided excuse just to act on a dispute. If necessary it's also worth mentioning to set new rulers in charge that care more about the betterment of individual societies instead of worrying about what's going on in other societies. Even if outside civilizations have eye catching inventory and resources at their disposal it's no excuse to let envy and greed be what stems killer friction. It's like seeing kids fighting over what other kids have simply because they want it and have the man power to take it like a bunch of bullies, this is where I'd advise even to initiate a strategy to captain the one raging war against eldian and use the opportunity of extortion to initiate a settlement. Particularly one that ensures the life of the stolen ruler long as the subjects of that ruler keep themselves from causing any more damage.
i try to imagine if this situation happen in our real world i'd probably be on zeke side to be honest even if its wrong cuz this power is a threat and i would want eldians to be wiped out peacfully as possible like nuclear bomb i wish we eradicate all around right now peacefully . you have to admit that titan is scary imagine we have terrorist using spinal fluid to create titans around the world to use them for bad reason. in myu opinion it would be hard for eldian to leave peacfully even for people who are scared about titans. euthanization would be wrong but i dont know what else would be better . this is a good show im questioning about my morality i try to be realistic here knowing that im wrong
Hi, clicked the vid to add to my watch later.l, so I haven't watched yet. That being said, NO. Zeke's plan wrought about everything that the world outside of paradis feared most about the Eldians. Instead of breaking down the stigma against Eldians, Marley reinforced it as a means of slavery and conquest, continued sending titans to paradis, and even sent agents in for sleeper missions. They had the prophecy to warm them and they brought it on themselves. This user supports the actions of Eren Jaeger and his subordinates.
If Zeke did this to the whole world I wouldnt hate him If this happened to the real world I still wouldnt be mad But I wouldnt do it bcz I believe what I believe in these kind of matter is no superior to a normal people
Even though I'm a nihilist I agree that others should not be denied pleasure, especially something that is ingrained in our evolutionary biology like having children.
I dont think Issyama came up with it on his own It might be a little deviation from Buddhism Infact I came up with this argument myself , ironically 2 -3 days bcz I started watching this series
But you have to convince ymir, and if ymir follow her only goal to defend the first king who enslave her by making titan, she won't listen. And mahr and ppl around the world cannot prove that titan ability has been erased so they would still be living like that *manga spoiler* That's why eren come into play showing her that she can be free by getting killed by mikasa by doing the rumble
Wouldnt stop the World from hating eldians, take away any chance of fighting back they have and would make Marley lose the global war. It would make sense if the whole world wasnt against eldians
But anyways people hate eldians right, so even if they were sterilized would take atleast a 100 yrs to go extinct and why would the rest of the world wait for 100 yrs they might just throw a nuke at them and boom it's over. In a recent episode, Zeke said that he would sterilize eldians first and use the rumbling later if needed but that's the point, with technology developing around the world the one and only weapon that eldia has is the rumbling .
@@dustingrimmmagic1067 but if they wouldn't attack then there would be no suffering so what's the point of doing euthinization plus Zeke assumed that all subjects of ymir were suffering but people within the walls were leading a peaceful and a happy life even eren was leading a peaceful life till the wall fell, you can say that subjects of ymir abroad were suffering but why should people within the walls lose their freedom, that's why Armin and hanjes plan of using the rumbling on a small scale made more sense cause then they would have enough time to break free of the Titans curse by researching, both eren and zekes plan were extreme
Lets say, eldian is HIV patient. Do you think its morally right for them to make a baby thats going to inherent their sickness? I have cancer and there is big risk that my baby going to inherent it, so there is no way i am going to selfishly bring baby into this world with my sickness. The same with eldia, their DNA is 100 times big risk than HIV, because with little lick of spinal fluid they can turn into man eating monster. So my point is, eldia should lives, but not reproduce so their baby wouldnt be cursed with Titan DNA. As long as titan exist, the world are going to see eldian as titan.
According to your line of logic, if there was a situation where you had the opportunity to cure cancer for all future humans, none today, but all that are born from this point onwards, but it would cost 1000 people their lives to get that cure, you would choose to reject it because your short vision of the world only applies to the here and now. According to that logic, we should not aim to make our lives more inconvenient to stop climate change, because its worst effects will permanently affect future generations and only the now matters, right? You present a very short sighted vision of this philosophy which has and does to this day cause incredible amounts of suffering for us today because some oil companies that made the first broad research on climate change 50 years ago decided their profit was more important than the planet in the future and we get to see it fall apart for it. You have to see what a destructive, immature and dangerous perspective that is, right? How it has to appeal to emotion to reject the logic of the argument behind Zekes plan. The alternative was that Billions died through Eren, resentment stayed, wars continued, so did suffering and its larger scope and threat through the existance of Titans, of people that could easily be forcefully turned into very dangerous terrorist weapons in cities, where they couldnt be killed quickly or easily no matter how good the weapons get. With a colossal Titan that can raze a city in a day, a Founder that is either a King figure, a god that invalidates democracy and principles of divide of power unless he´s enslaved and shifters, including the Attack Titan that is guranteed to rebel and cause trouble, as well as the curse shortening their lives and Yimir still being eternally enslaved in a hell she has to forever toil away in. Even with how cruel Zeke was, his methods imperfect and his actions irredeemable, ultimately the goal would have been worth it. The logic is flawless and only emotial appeal to stuff that doesnt work and isnt appliable to justify the opposition works against it. "Sorry that we ruined the planet, but burning tons of fossil fuels made our economy really good for about 100 years or so and we just loved driving in our muscle cars way too much. You wouldnt want to forcefully take that away from us, would you? For what? To save billions of people, the worlds ecology and its systems stability for the coming thousands to millions of years?"
You realize that we ARE seeing the current impacts of climate change, right? When I say "we" I mean a collective. Poor countries are absolutely being demolished because of climate change, 1000x more than richer ones right now. So even by my logic in this video, climate change should absolutely be dealt with.
@@literalmaverick8608 it should be reacted to, not dealt with permanently. What is a accurate description of your line of thinking is a "Reactionairy Mindset". According to your argumentation we should only deal with the things we can see and feel the effect of right now, not worry about the effects our actions have in the future. It should be obvious how this mindset it wrong, but climate change is simply a excellent example of how we it failed already and will continue to fail if we dont collectively think further ahead than literal animals and use our ability to think abstractly, predicting the effects of our actions and acting to preemptively prevent them. This mental failure and reactionairy thought is sadly still a very common mindset and often represented in media, even if its negative effects are shown. Just beacuse our mind tricks us into not feeling for some realities as much as those closer to us it doesnt make them less real. We today are victims of it and our inaction will lead to countless generations in the future cursing us for it the way we curse the one before us. It is the same with Zeke, only even the momentary cost is lower than what Eren does.
no i dont agree with zeke. ending the suffering of eldian people is not by stopping their generation or ending their life's. the way to ending eldian's people suffering is by ending the cycle of hatred to one a nother and create world peace. spoiler alert down ahead speaking of witch i dont agree to eren as well. he thinks that the only way to end eldian's people suffering is by destroying every other human race, and let the eldian live in the world piece fully (world piece. like i said obtaining world peace is not by destroying other human race or ending every human race. thats just wrong. like in this real world what we do to obtain world piece is by ending the cycle of hatred to one and other and create the cycle of sympathy towards one and other and does creating world peace
Easier said that done...the cycle of hatred wud have never ended as long as eldians had the power to transform into titans... zekes plan by far sounds the most rational to me
@@literalmaverick8608 But anyways people hate eldians right, so even if they were sterilized would take atleast a 100 yrs to go extinct and why would the rest of the world wait for 100 yrs they might just throw a nuke at them and boom it's over. In a recent episode, Zeke said that he would sterilize first and use the rumbling later if needed but that's the point, with technology developing around the world the one and only weapon that eldia has is the rumbling .
@@proxy450 and that's why zeke said he will pass the founding Titan to historia kids, basically holding the world at gun point, to allow the final generation of eldians to live peacefully and if the world tried attacking, they activate the rumbling and take out some military bases as a threat
I know I didn't agree with the plan right out the gate, but it was really because I thought it was dumb (also immoral). If you can literally rewrite DNA, can't you just remove Titan powers, and wouldn't that have a similar result?
Nope. Human will never changed, they will never believe that titan power removed except all eldian go extinct just like the ending of 139 when marleyan still pointing gun at all eldian even tho they can prove it with blood test. Furthermore, Eldian will be powerless without titan power they will get massacred. Starting from all eldian in Liberio will be executed or to be fodders in war against other nation. Then paradise cuz the resources, will get banged by the whole nations in the world.
Your understanding of antinatalism is lacking. What Zeke is doing is called eugenics, not antinatalism. He's choosing only a specific population to sterilize.
I think it could be argued that Zeke is somewhere in the middle between eugenics and antinatalism. The reason being is because, while you could argue that the motive has some eugenics-based undertones-- such as wanting to "rid" the world of titans-- it certainly also has antinatalist logic as well. That logic being that he wishes to rid the Eldians of future suffering by none of the future generations being born. It all ultimately relies on the motive, and I believe that his motive does lie somewhere inbetween. But ultimately I also chose to speak about antinatalism because it's fairly under-discussed, and it's an interesting and thought-provoking topic.
@@literalmaverick8608 It's somewhat difficult to understand his motives as antinatalistic as he focuses only on one group of people. So he isn't against bringing new people into existence. He is only against bringing Eldians into existence. I don't know of any antinatalists philosopher who would have these eugenic arguments. And since you mentioned Benatar's book, it's easy to see that his arguments would apply to all people (and titans and animals).
I focus on antinatalism due to his belief that he is ridding Eldians of "future suffering." In the scene where he first comes up with the plan, he lists negating suffering as one of his central reasons for the plan. The negation of suffering is central to antinatalist beliefs. No, I do not think that Zeke has 1:1 antinatalist beliefs that can be connected to a particular thinker. However, I don't think it's absurd to say that his beliefs hinge on a fundamental aspect of antinatalism, and that's the belief that suffering occurs upon birth. Yes, Zeke believes this to be true only of Eldians, but I think that would just mean he has a narrow version of antinatalism, rather than that the antinatalist similarities should just be tossed because it's not exactly the same as Benetar's version. Also, you mention animals, but there are certainly antinatalists who don't have that opinion about animals. Would those people not then be antinatalists because they don't apply the belief to all living beings? What I'm saying, again, is that antinatalism ultimately relies on the belief that birth necessitates suffering. Zeke believes that, but only with Eldians. Thus he has a narrow, more focused version of antinatalism that is also linked with a eugenics argument because he also believes that the Titans are bad for the world. Again, it's a nuanced take.
Zeke remembered me of Rusty Cole and Cioran, with the difference that Rusty has a sense of honor and a spiritual opening while Cioran dosent take himself seriously. If Zeke had any of the 3 - honor, spirituality or cynicism - he wouldnt be the imbecil he is. Thats why I like the solution with Armin: a leaf is sufficent to show how utilitarism and nihilism are childish schools of thought. Zeke's mistake was that he was always a baby. Still, it's incredible How many adults considers étics with the Idea of freedom and happines can be achieve by not existing. Poetically, great stuff. Philosophically, funny stuff
@@akihikosakurai4013 and let eldians be killed when Marley gets the founder? Any other option involves more cruel methods being applied to other groups, what alternative do you see fit to resolve the conflict they are in?
I considered Zeke’s plan less as a way to stop the suffering of future Eldians, and more that it was the least violent and destructive way to end the power of the titans. That being said, it seems that even in this universe human technology was quickly reaching a level that could negate titans anyway so even just freezing the founder away for a generation or two could probably solve the problem
Yeah, I agree. I think it was a solution based on his own close-mindedness, and not the real solution to ending the cycle of suffering or violence.
@@literalmaverick8608 If we compare Zeke to people in the real world I would have to say he is probably most like Greta Thunberg. She is trying to get the world to replace fossil fuels with a Green New Deal. Most nations would refuse b/c we like living in an industrial society but their are people who would follow her example back into the stone age.
Wtf did I just read? A child promoting climate science is equivalent to a mass murdering anime character? Lmao imma need to take a bit from comments. I might have been accidentally drugged and this comment isn't real.
@@literalmaverick8608 na dude he's 420% right. dunno what you're on about
@@72Worker I don't think they had wind turbines and nuclear reactors back in the stone age.
I feel like another main reason he's trying to stop the birth of Eldians is to put an end to the power of the titans which have been a major part of pain for the world, and to zeke if titans were gone there would be less suffering. While he's not completely wrong, titans are really just a product of human greed and power and everything that a titan has done has been because of a person pulling the strings from behind, whether it's the first king fritz forcing ymir to destroy nations or marleyans forcing children to inherit one of the nine titans, humans have been behind it all along so putting an end to titans would not end the cycle of hatred in the world because they were never the root
Completely agree with you. The ability to turn into a titan hasn't resulted in death by itself, its people in power using that ability for their gain. With titans gone, that will still be seen in some other way.
Could you imagine if 100 years ago the black slave decide to euthanise their kind juat because of their suffering life abuse by their white owner? Or if 80 years ago Jews decided to euthanise their kind just because the Nazi is about to give them the Holocaust hell for a distorted belief? Or Marley in thousands years ago decided to euthanise themselve just because Eldian empire is the ruler of the world during that period of life?
None of those abovementioned examples make sense, hence neither do euthanising Eldian just because they could be turned into titan and be discriminated make any sense either on any possible moral ground.
Also the trigger for eldians to transform is with the spinal fluid of a royal. Without that trigger the eldians aren't a threat
@@JeusAlprime108 The difference between historically oppressed groups and Eldians is, say for example black people: black people had no advantage of any sort compared to white people, as they are all people and the only reason they were discriminated against was because of a visual difference as of the colour of their skin. In contrast, Eldians had the advantage of turning into titans of mass destruction so the aim of the Marleyans was to oppress them because they had this ability that, if not controlled, would eventually wipe out the rest of the world. The euthanisation of the Eldian race would allow the power of the titans to vanish and for humans to be equal in power again, and create a more even playing field in power across nations. The euthanisation of Eldians would result in a world like our current world: not exactly peaceful but would sure be a lot better than 9 people in the world (presumably controlled by military) having powers that would excel in any kind of destruction, and especially bad if a titan power got into the wrong hands. So in conclusion, the end of Eldians would actually benefit humanity as opposed to minority groups that hold no natural physical threat to others.
@@xod1a976 What you said is no different than what Gabi said to Kaya when Kaya first show Gabi her house where her mom die for Eldian sin because they could be titan, they terrorise upon the world hundred of years ago. Should Kaya's mom deserve to be genocide for such reason? Even Gabi come to the realisation in recently episodes that such thought is flaw, so why did you still persists on such belief?
Zeke is completely neutral, he needs to get rid of one side of humanity so everyone can stop suffering. He chose to euthanize the Eldians since he could manipulate their bodies so Eldians dissapear without actually killing them avoiding bloodshed. While eren decide to wipe out the other side, but committing genocide by crushing them (literally)
Eren did something what a normal human would do
@@SteveBufz A NORMAL HUMAN WOULD GENOCIDE BILLIONS OF PEOPLE?!?!?!?!?! A NORMAL PERSON?!?????????????!!
@@cronos4024 yes in order to save his friends and dear ones yes . These wars will not end until one sides dies.
So it's either the world or the eldians . Eren chose to be a villain that's why it doesn't make sense . And that happens when no one believes in god and everyone are a slave to power . If there was a concept of god in aot . Eren would have never done that . Also marely had it coming don't you know what they did to Eren?
That's the main concept war will never end because if these powers. That's why god doesn't give us extraordinary powers
@@SteveBufz It is bonkers that say that and even cram a religious message in there where there was none.
First of all, the show isnt as simple as your feeble mind believes, so both sides would not have had to choose one to die, there could have been better options.
And then the god thing.... WHAT?
Religion is something the show explicitly portraits negatively!
Whenever the faithful pray in their church for god to save them they are curshed by the female titan, god never hearing or caring enough to help them, making them some of the biggest fools of the show.
Same with Historia rejecting the role as god because she doesnt believe the contricances and lies behind it.
And your biggest point is that nobody would have done these horrible things if they believed in god?!
WHAT?!
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH DEATH AND CRUELTY WAS AND STILL IS COMMITED IN THE NAME OF RELIGION?!
Drom crusades to modern terrorist organizations or religion still opposing the happiness and progress of humanity by remaining anti gay or trans and so on.
Religion is a tool for its heads to easily control the masses and justify their own power.
Hunanity rejected that chain with the enlightenment and it granted us access to a age of progress and prosperity like no other.
If anything AoT would have a message heavily against religion, because the world is cruel and god is a pacifist that wont save you or because he doesnt exist.
Truly ridiculous statements you make here.
And again, your justification for Eren to kill BILLIONS OF PEOPLE SO A FEW FRIENDS OF HIM SURVIVE is dangerous and ironically shows the evil and corrupt nature that religious people operate with under their exterieur.
Edit: Oh and how telling that you generalise everyone in Marley to be deserving of genocide, even the good people and the Eldians that live there.
Even the refugees Eren made good memories with and all other countries in the world that we cant assume hate Eldians equally or more universally.
You just say they "had it coming", all of them, so just trample them all.
Not just them, but nature too.
Just erase all life beyond the Island from existance except surviving plants, deep sea fish and safe animals like birds or those that burry deep underground tunnels.
It really is funny to me how the guy advocating the show to have a religious plea to be the one justifying the worst option the show had and clearly communicated that it was the worst option
@@cronos4024 it will be fun to debate but unfortunately my mom is going to take my mobile at night .
First if people in aot believed that God is real why would they kill everyone? Even though they know it's wrong . Christianity and both Islam discourages it . There is no concept of AFTERLIFE in aot . Take a Muslim for an example they will die in the name of their god because they know that they will be granted heaven for it after clearing all the rights that they didn't fulfil. Let's take Muslims and Jews (Palestine and Israel) as an example. If Muslims had power to erase all the enemies of Islam they would do it ( Eren would do the same) but in Islam it's strictly prohibited . Basically it's the whole world vs the Muslim. Everyone would join forces to eradicate Islam . The only thing that was stoping Muslims to kill them was Islam itself . If they were not Muslims and the whole world is against them and they had the power to kill them all they would do it without a second thought. And also if you think that religion is a tool to control people and to enrage war . Then my friend if that was the case either the Muslims or Christians or the Jews or the Hindus would have still be killing everyone. If you think a true Muslim would do such a thing you need to rethink your beliefs about religions . If it was stated in Quran or bible or Geeta or Torah that kill everyone who doesn't accept Allah Jesus p.b.uh or Hindu GODs or
Moses p.b.u.h . Then I or you would have been living in a basement to hide so that who ever has power won't kill us . The truth is everyone is worshipping something for some it's god for some it's money for some it's women for some it's pleasure for some it's immortality for some it's a good life . We just don't understand it . If religious people die then society would be dead because if someone non religious got power who worshipes more power or is a slave to power we would have been living in times where we have to obey all of his orders . Religions created honour of a MAN and that's why society will live until religious people die
I mean…it’s certainly more moral than what Eren’s got planned…
Morals?? In this show ??
You're a lutanic ..
Zeke's plan is to shoot yourself while being robbed. Eren's plan is to shoot the robber and his accomplice
@@soloknight7197 no Erens plan is to shoot the robber, then go home and shoot up his home town
@@DigitalAge98 No, that's akin to him flattening Paradi
@@soloknight7197 I mean the robbers home town. It's the robber in this scenario the rest of the world?
your earlier video about SnK really opened my eyes about my own false understanding of the show I've been consuming! Even just going from "Eldians are an allegory for Jews" to "The treatment Eldians receive is akin to the treatment Jewish people endured, meaning the allegory is about the othering of marginalized people" made the show make much more sense. So truly, thank you.
I'm really happy that my refutation was able to change how someone viewed the series. Definitely means a lot to me. Thank you for the kind words and I hope you continue to enjoy my content. :D
My god, what an underrated channel. I went back and watched your xenoblade video aswell as a fan of that game. Supremely written scripts. I was a big fan of Zeke, and I loved the insight into anti-natalist ideology. Super interesting stuff. I hope you keep going until you succeed on this platform because I guarantee you will eventually. This shit is too good to fail.
Wow, incredibly nice words. That really means a lot that you think my scripts are well-written. Really, thank you. :)
This was a great watch, you deserve way more recognition.
Thank you so much! That really means a lot to hear
I think Eren and Zeke both believe that the only possible futures are either one where all eldians are wiped out, or all non-eldians are wiped out. With that ultimatum I think Zeke presents the more moral option simply because it results in less death. Essentially the choice is to either let one ethnic group die or let all but one ethnic groups die. Personally I think both Zeke and Eren are morally wrong because I believe that there exists a third option. I believe that co-existence could be possible, although it would of course be extremely difficult, and probably still involve a significant number of deaths.
I think the focus on antinatalism misses the bigger picture of Zeke's plan. Zeke wanted to stop the curse of Titans/Ymir, which every Eldian has and is born with. As long as there were Eldians in the world, so too could there be Titans, who have caused an incalculable level of destruction and death/genocide throughout history. Zeke didn't want to sterilize Eldians because they being oppressed, and thus save them from suffering at the hands of others; it was about how Eldians were an existential threat to humanity by virtue of being able to turn into Titans, and the only way to eliminate titans would be to stop Eldians from being born. In this, I don't really see Zeke as an anti-Natalist; presumably if the curse of Ymir could be eliminated without this method, he would have accepted it.
I see where you're coming from, but when Zeke is initially talking to Tom about the plan, he says both: he says that Eldians are cursed and that titans should be wiped out, but he also stresses the immense levels of suffering that Eldians endure because of this. It seems from his comments, he wanted to sterilize the Eldians due to the fact that they were an existential threat, yes, but also due to the poor conditions that they must live in due to this. Now, whether Zeke is an antinatalist is definitely up for debate. I'm not sure whether he is or not, tbh. I know that he doesn't perfectly conform to David Benetar's definition, but because antinatalism can be adopted in so many ways, I don't wanna rule out the possibility that he conforms to some other definition. Especially considering the focus on the idea of suffering which results from birth. I do mention how Zeke focuses on the idea of "immense" suffering, and thus likely wouldn't suggest this idea about ALL people, just Eldians. But it's definitely an interesting discussion. Thank you for the thought provoking and in-depth comment! :)
@@literalmaverick8608 Yeah those are the 2 reasons he's doing it. I absolutely think it's a messed up plan. I'm a manga reader so I'm gonna save my other thoughts for when you'll are caught up
Lol manga readers! 😂 And I agree. I disagree with his plan for sure. I think it's intriguing how many people DO agree with it though. I think that's why it's important that more people openly discuss metaethics. So they can either see why they agree with him, or why they actually might not based on other ethical implications.
@@literalmaverick8608 Yes. That's one of the multitude of reasons I love AoT so much. It makes me think so much about the ethics and themes in the story and I can (oh it's could now 😢) think of so many theories. Then, I love watching videos of people with all kinds of perspectives on it and discuss with some friends about it. I could literally dicuss AoT forever
@@literalmaverick8608 yeah but if he was a true anti he would kill everyone else too bc they’re also suffering in a terrible world
Here from the Totally not Mark shoutout! Love the channel and your defense video!
Thank you so much! I'm extremely happy that you enjoy my content! Also, Totally not Mark is fantastic, so it's insane that he was kind enough to shout me out. Really great dude.
@@literalmaverick8608 Personally I thought your response video missed the mark, but I really think you make amazing content, so you’ll see me around quite a bit!
We never had someone to come up with a completely correct plan in aot.
We got Marley, who wanted to kill eldians and make them suffer too.
We got Eren, who killed 80 percent of humanity.
And we got this dude, who wanted to end a race, not by killing them or making them suffer.
Logically judging, Zeke's plan had an upper hand here but it wasn't 100percent correct either.
I came from Totally not Mark's shoutout only to realize I've already watched your videos :). Just wanted to say I love your videos and you deserve more views, keep up the good fight my guy.
Thank you! I really appreciate that. :D
I was checking the views on this video and I was SHOCKED when I saw that it only had 7k. This video was entertaining/informative and it had really high quality. You should definitely have more subs and views
How dare you talk about the sacred swing set 🥲😂😂
😥😢😭😿
AHHH I'M SO GLAD YOU REACHED 1000! You really deserved it haha, I've been watching you since you released why Persona needed lgbtq representation. When I saw your last aot episode blew up I literally gasped-
Hopefully, you'll get even more recognition you definitely deserve it. The quality of your videos and input is outstanding
Honestly, aot ethics are like, sometimes too much for me to think about, but I definitely don't think I agree with Zeke's plan,,, Maybe I just finally need to start the manga like I've been planning to for months lmao
Lol thank you so much! I'm still wrapping my head around the idea that some people have actually been with me for a bit and actually enjoy my content enough to continue returning. So seriously, thank you so much for the encouragement and kind words. You're awesome and I hope you'll continue to stick with me through this wild UA-cam journey! Lol.
Only through seeing discussions about AOT did I discover people insane enough to unironically support ideas like mass genocide and sterilisation, even if in just a fictional context. That's kind of impressive.
To be fair, I think show's like AoT attract that type of discussion because of the topics that the show discusses. Some fans still do surprise me tho. Lmao
@@literalmaverick8608 Oh absolutely. 15 years ago you would've had fans justifying all of Light Yagami's methods and actions as morally right
Idk thought, in the context of aot I think Zekes plan is the best option on the table. Unless there was a way to use the founder to remove the eldians ability to transform into titans, then getting rid of the eldians ability to reproduce would get rid of titans forever.
I could never agree with Zeke's plan. What he wants to do is just genocide by another name. For that same reason, I also don't agree with Eren and the Rumbling. Both options open to us right now are utterly horrific, and while on a smaller scale, I'm not always opposed to choosing the lesser of two evils, but this is just not a choice I think anyone should ever be allowed to make on such a large scale. I believe that genocide, in any form and for any reason, can never be a moral choice, and can never be right.
Where I CAN actually choose is between the individual philosophies of Zeke and Eren, divorced from their plans. Zeke, thanks to his immense childhood trauma and self-hatred, believes that the essence of life is is suffering. Eren believes that the essence of life is freedom, specifically the freedom to make choices. Choices about what to do, but also choices about how to feel and deal with the things life throws at you, surrering and happiness alike. For that reason, I don't think he'd ever actually agree with a sterilization plan, since it deprives all possible future generations of Eldians from that freedom to make those choices and thus goes against his most fundamental belief.
Here is where I'm firmly on Eren's side. Zeke just wants to die. And to be honest, I really don't blame him. I don't even blame him for the horrendous world view he's developed due to this. O blame him for what he does, but not for why he does it. But I myself have to believe that there's something more to focus on in life than suffering. I have to believe that my choices in life MATTER. I have to believe in that freedom. Otherwise, I might as well lay down and die right here.
I think it's absolutely incredible that Attack on Titan manages to pose such highly... touchy... questions as "Can racism or genocide be morally right (and when could it be justified)?" and gets away with not just asking those questions in the first place, but _actually getting people to debate on it fiercely to the point that there's tons of people who'd answer "yes"!_ That takes an incredible amount of guts. While some critics of this story see this as an endorsement of these philosophies, it's actually anything but. After all, the show, while never shying away from portraying horrific things, never depicts those things as morally right. It clearly shows the terrible consequences. But it also doesn't necessarily show those who fight against these things as morally right either. Rather, it shows that everything that happens, no matter how good or bad we label it, has a reason behind it. Moreover, the story divorces the grander scale from the individual in a way that shows how no matter how good, bad or morally grey we are, we are all capable of doing good and terrible things. While you can agree with a person's philosophy or at least understand them, you can fundamentally disagree with how they act on it. In this way, Attack on Titan doesn't make a definitive judgement. It doesn't purely moralize, it simply observes, presents the facts and lets us draw our own conclusions. And that is something that I don't think I've ever seen done this boldly and this well before. That, to me, is the thing that makes this story stand head and shoulders above almost all the rest.
Well without some magical 3rd option, your choices are wipe out half of humanity or euthanize your people.
Bottom line Zeke just has the most reasonable plan to end an issue that's been ongoing for centuries and probably will keep going without making either of these choices.
Very well written video this and your response video to JustWrite have shown you as an exceptionally talented writer and I look forward to viewing more of your content and viewing your previous work
This praise is insane. Thank you so much. It really means a lot. I hope to see you around in future videos!
The problem is, even if giving birth to children may make some people happy, it does not change the fact of it being a selfish act.
The suffering of existing Eldians who are denied having children is much much less than the suffering that would occur for any Eldians born into the world we see - yes it's awful that some people won't be able to have biological kids following Zeke's plan but no, their pain at being denied that possibility is not nearly as large as the pain felt by a child brought into a world where 80% of humanity hates them for something they can never change about themself (and realistically the world will never stop hating them for it because the fear of Titans/Shifters and the threat they pose is quite a valid one in the AOT universe)
Also as an anti-natalist myself, I don't consider the pain of not having biological children as a valid counter because having a biological child/creating a new human is doing an act that they have not asked you to do, they cannot consent to your doing it, and they are harmed by your doing it (or at least opened up to the guarantee of harm and possibility of pleasure). There is no non-selfish reason for making new humans. (and let's not forget that children in need of families already exist for anyone looking to be a parent)
+ On the flip side there are multiple good arguments for not killing existing humans (the act of letting them live is one they'd ask you to do, one they'd happily consent to you doing, and one that introduces no harm to them or anyone they know/love by being done)
Sucks that I kinda relate to the hardships zeke went through as a kid till he was 7
You're not the only one, don't worry...
Waiting time for anime production is not cruel
Gives animators a chance to do even more amazing things to the show
Not an anti-natalist or anything, but in the case of the curse of the titans, I think Zeke's plan is still the lesser evil compared to what Eren wanted, and how the curse ended the way that it did. I'm not a parent and am not in a point in my life where I am choosing whether or not to have kids, but I don't see the not having kids thing as THAT much suffering. I think if the Eldians used the wall titans all the way through to the end of their lives, they would be able to live peacefully, and the Eldian race (and more importantly the ability to make more titans) would naturally end.
I just think that's much better than roughly 80% of ALL LIFE being wiped out, just because Eren wants his friends to have long lives and be remembered as heroes.
In a way when you look at them outside the box and forget of what we know about Eren and Zeke as people so far. I think at first glance Zeke's plan would've been the most beneficial and logical to everyone, it kinda is. Meanwhile Eren's seems selfish, if you don't know Eren personally, just being some crazy guy wanting to wipe out human race to save his friends and his own country/island. But it's ironic how everyone in the fandom seems to think opposed, like Zeke being the crazy one with such plan and Eren being right to kill the human race.
But anyways people hate eldians right, so even if they were sterilized would take atleast a 100 yrs to go extinct and why would the rest of the world wait for 100 yrs they might just throw a nuke at them and boom it's over. In a recent episode, Zeke said that he would sterilize first and use the rumbling later if needed but that's the point, with technology developing around the world the one and only weapon that eldia has is the rumbling .
@@blackcat80yearsago96 Zeke's plan is completely unrealistic and anyone who would agree with his plan would be dead right now if there was only one race being hated by the entire world.
This video is really great analysis!
One thing that I think is really important when considering this story is the ultimate cruelty inflicted by Isayama on Eren: Eren WANTS to do this. That's the ultimate tragedy of his character. He sees this fixed timeline laid out in front of him, it horrifies him and detaches him from his own humanity, and then he spends the rest of his life coming to grips with the fact that he IS doing this of his own free will. Isayama has written a character who's primary motivation differs from what he would consider a happy life, and he has trapped this character in a fixed timeline and shown them a terrible future.
This is a REALLY interesting concept for a character, and I think that it makes Eren's SOLUTION to the problem of the Titans far less interesting to morally ponder by comparison. The solution to the Titans and the events that lead up to it are essentially set in stone, by the rules of the story being in a fixed timeline. It is an impossible moral question by design and there IS no other solution to the problem of the Titans, this is the only one that solves it. I think what IS worth critically analyzing is basically everything else, especially the other characters and the way they view the impossible moral questions they're faced with.
Your video is basically exactly what I wanted! Thank you so much for taking the time to talk about this series through this lens, I will be thinking about the questions Isayama poses for a very long time.
I don't think either Zeke or Eren's plans are "big picture" plans. They're flawed with bias, created through trauma.
But when it comes to the question of "kill or be killed?" I'd kill. I'd prefer Eren's plan.
BUT if Erwin were still alive, I think we would have a leader with the foresight, experience & intelligence for more middle-ground.
Personally I think Marley was a threat to the world & needed to be brought down. The rest of the nations could possibly be reasoned with.
War & conflict seems to be an inevitability for humanity. But without Marley in the picture, I don't think Eldia would face genocide.
Whilst I thoroughly agree, I still think the world would need to be brought down. Those people were crying tears of joy at the words of war being brought upon Paradis.
Whilst yes, maybe Marley did great damage to the Eldian name and thus Paradis, the rest of the world have boxed Paradis as irredeemable just as much, if not, MORE SO.
It’s stated that the outside world hates Eldians even more than Marley, so the whole world probably needed to come down.
The situation was always going to be kill or be killed. That world of aot was never even going to listen to peace talks
@@APsGTG The world today isn't listening to peace talks either. Its a cruel world filled with corrupt governments trampling the weak under foot. Alliances are for vested interests. Rarely humanitarian aspirations. The rich & powerful grow moreso, while the poor grow more poor & distracted. The people are quick to hate based on propaganda or have a naive hope that peace can be achieved with honeyed words.
What Eldia has is the equivalent of a nuclear deterrent (The Rumbling) that they would be using on a nation that is CURRENTLY using titans to conquer other nations. This is in a world where nuclear arms don't yet exist. Nobody wants to go to war with THE nation that could end their existence on a whim.
I don't think "peace" is an option in this world. But deterrence from war & finding respite/understanding in the time between conflicts is possible.
Thats more of what I could see being achieved. If the world is foolish enough to not hear out Eldia, then yeah... they're dead. 😅
Eren attacked marley,and the world still allied themselves with marley,realistically everyone in those nations including the people who now sympathize with eren (Reiner annie,and before he was killed bertholdt) and gabi and the new candidates would be dead.
I think that antinatalism isn’t a great frame on its own for understanding Zeke’s ideas, I think it’s better to see it as Nuclear Nonproliferation with anti natalism as the means to stop proliferation. If you look at Eldians as walking talking WMDs it suddenly makes more sense to say “we have to stop production ASAP” because in a world with nukes (like ours) the nuclear powers are always paranoid that people that they don’t like will gain access to that power and non nuclear powers are always paranoid that they will be destroyed or subjugated by the people with nukes & are thus driven to seek the nuke to protect themselves which validates the paranoia of the Nuclear powers. & furthermore the power of nuclear weapons is so great that the more weapons that exist in the world increases the likelihood that a conflict that brought all that power to bear would decimate humanity & leave the land a smoking pile of rubble. We know from the rumbling that it really is possible for titans to do that kind of planet scale damage, & we see from Marley’s various international conflicts and their anti-eldian apartheid regime the way that the presence of Eldian WMD’s drives aggression, paranoia & bigotry within Marley & in the realm of International politics within the world of AOT so we can apply nuclear non-proliferation arguments to AOT pretty straightforwardly. Zeke is right
Solid point, I think the focus on antinatalism was pretty off from what Zeke's actual intentions are and at the end of the show I think it's clear he had the best plan
Agree too.
Except he isn't, the Titan curse is lifted at the end of the series without causing Eldian extinction, by killing the founding Titan.
The reason Zeke wanted to sterilize Eldians is because of his hatred of his own people and their history, there were other ways to eliminate titans.
As an anti-natalist if we could press a button and erase everyone from Earth, I would. If we were all zapped out of existence, there would be nobody to feel that loss.
That also means any day you’ve ever spent happy would be wiped out of existence too. There’d be nothing. So much nothing that you couldn’t even fathom that there is nothing. The same way how you could never picture a new colour. That kind of indifference
amazing video!! keep up the good content I love your channel!!
Thank you so much! I'm really happy that you enjoyed the video. 😀 You're awesome!
I agree with Zeke's plan. It leads to the least amount of suffering for all future generations, Eldians or otherwise.
I disagree with Zeke's plan. Suffering isn't necessarily a bad thing; it often serves as contrast to all the good in life, and gives greater meaning and context thereby. But, more than that, I simply find the idea of demanding a whole people to roll over and die for the good of everyone else to be abhorrent.
Everyone deserves to live. Everyone deserves the chance to live. And everyone has the right to fight for their life, and the lives of those whom they love.
@@jordanfitzmaurice6658 "Suffering isn't necessarily a bad thing..."
Holy fuck, okay, slow down there buddy
"demanding a whole people to roll over and die"
Not being able to reproduce is not the same as dying. Killing people is Eren's idea, not Zeke's.
@@arushan54 'Suffering isn't necessarily a bad thing', I meant that, and I provided my reasoning as to why. Hardships breed resilience, and the pain and difficulties in life is what allows us to appreciate all the good.
Dying isn't the same thing as killing. Zeke's plan is a slow genocide, but it is a genocide nonetheless. It's a nihilistic surrender that ends with all Eldian's powerless, hopeless, weak, and then dead.
@@jordanfitzmaurice6658 That's a bad take, I know its nice to believe cliche's like 'What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.' But scientifically speaking trauma worsens mental health. Never a good thing
Superb Analysis,I came to the same conclusions you did as well so this only reaffirmed my beliefs but it was still an awesome watch.As an anime only I was taken aback by that episode initially only rating it a six(I don't think I've ever given anything below an 8 to titan)cause I believed the show was supporting his arguement by having Eren(who comes from a much much different background)think that it's the "sole salvation".After a week of thinking about it and hearing it said back by Ultra Simp Yelena I came up with the counter arguements you mentioned here and also realized that it is contradictory for Eren to believe what he is saying(Since his whole deal is Freedom wouldn't he be denying all Eldians their freedom of choice by establishing himself as a righteous authority?).Now it's one of my favotite episodes just because it managed to shake my beliefs and made me think of why I strongly believed it was wrong as soon as I heard it.
You should definitely do more philosophical analysis on AoT,it gives us so many different perspectives it's actually insane.I haven't seen many shows that don't have any heroes or villains but instead portray the circumstances of their upbringing as the cauze of their beliefs.
Curious,What do you think Levi is up to at this point? What's driving him forward after losing Erwin and having his own morality shattered for a second time by the basement?Am I missing something or is Isayama really not giving as much Levi as need?(Although the shot of him shaking his head for his choice to save eren every time is priceless).On one hand I want to experience the anime on first viewing but on the other not getting spoiled is too difficult lmfao
Completely agree! I think the show often forces us to look inward, and I really enjoy that. As for Levi, I'd probably say a sense of duty and meaning. In the forest, we see Levi question what all of this has been for; saving Eren, his friends dying, and Erwin dying. But I think Levi continues to fight because he believes that it has to mean something. That those of his friends that have died, meant something. So he continues to fight for them and fight for a future where people like them can live without fighting. At least, that's what I think.
Personally, I get very uncomfortable seeing people agreeing with Zeke. As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter if you think you are doing a racial group a service by committing an act of genocide onto them... you are still committing an act of genocide. And what's more, is the fact that Zeke fundamentally is using his experiences to assume that he knows better than all other Eldians. You can't rationally use your own personal experiences to say that someone else's is invalid.
Those were my thoughts when first learning about Zeke's ideas anyway. Nonetheless, this was an awesome and very insightful video. You are criminally under subed. Keep up the awesome work :)
ZEKES PLAN IS ONLY CORRECT AND EREN IS JUST A FUCKING ANGRY KID
11:30 this part 🗣️
Love how complex and layered Attack on Titan has become. Now we are faced with the Rashomon effect, where each side of this vast geopolitical war thinks they are correct. As Eren said, "If all that was to save the world, then you didn't have much choice." The introduction of technology that is on the verge of making titans obsolete is important. If eldians really did pose a threat that could cause another thousand-year war, the sterilization argument gains some footing. But, as it stands, titans are slowly becoming obsolete as a means of war, and the only real threat to humanity is the "Rumbling". So, the genocide/serialization argument gets weaker since in a mere generation, eldians wouldn't pose any threat to mankind. People could get back to killing each other with bigger, more destructive weapons.
Well, that's true, but they would still be leading horrible lives where they are oppressed and living in concentration camps for God knows how many generations.
Lookin forward to your analysis once the last part of the story gets animated.
Yes, well, Zeke's goal is correct at least. It would be just as ethical in our world if there was some genetic disease that turn people rabid at 30 or whatever, that 100% transmits by procreation.
Very interesting. I think it heavily depends on the ethical framework to determine if that example would be ethical. Like, a deontologist would say that sterilizing an individual would be unethical, regardless of if they had a rabid disease or became titans, because they would say that individuals have a fundamental right to not be harmed in that way. But I'm interested, how far can your example go? Does this only apply to titans and rabid diseases, or genetic disorders that inflect heavy suffering but aren't a guarantee when giving birth? So my question is-and this is a difficult one lol-based on your rule, would it be ethical to sterilize everyone that has a severe genetic disease because they have the chance of passing it down?
Very interesting philosopical ground here. Thank you for the comment. :)
@@literalmaverick8608 If the chance of tranmission was guranteed and the disease as harmful as titanism, then yeah ofc. The way I see it Zeke could've been the third Dr Jaeger,ironically enough. Wotking to contain and eliminate the greatest plague in human history. The problem is the forming of a nation and identity over that disease, which turns a health issue into a racial issue.
I think antinatalism generally speaking is almost certainly a bad idea. There are plenty of cases of good parents raising happy healthy children. However I am bipolar and I while I am a good guy, The fact my condition is hereditary, and comes with some of the greatest moments of suffering imaginable (example, experiencing a metaphorical hell that feels mentally literal.) . As well as the fact that bipolar puts one at risk for traumatizing behavior, such as manic episodes. You can make a very strong case that bipolar individuals, in particular bipolar 1, should not have children, unless they prove themselves stable for a number of years. And even in the case of long term stability, the high risk of passing on this chaotic and dreadful mental illness is hard to justify in any way. And I suppose that is what Zeke was thinking, his people can be turned into literal weapons of war, and when they are titans, his people cant help but inflict suffering on others, its in their titan nature. Although his methods fall apart, in my eyes, when you realize he could have just taken away the ability to turn into titans away from the eldians.
Well a facet of antinatalism is that there is not really such a thing as "happy healthy people", in that a human has more pain in their life than they do pleasure, especially if you add up all the small innate pains of life (spending most of your time doing chores, performing mandatory bodily functions, doing things that do not bring you pleasure). Human brains are selective in their memorization of events, and we remember negative events more than positive ones, leading to the suffering being further amplified. So in a sense, the human condition itself is mostly unpleasant for the vast vast majority of people.
I don't think he could even undo the ability for Eldians to turn into titans, mostly because it's an innate quasi-biological trait (I don't think being Eldian is purely genetic, since every Eldian's child with a non-Eldian becomes a Subject of Ymir) and if someone gained the power of the founding titan in the future they could undo what he did, plus it would likely lead to Eldians being murdered en masse worldwide, with some surviving to continue the Eldian legacy of living miserable, pained lives full of oppression and hatred. To the outside world it would not be possible to prove that Eldians were no longer a threat, so they would be treated as one indefinitely.
@@boianko Well that's the problem with antinatalism. It turns life into an equation written by a toddler and completely denies the human condition. The fact that there's more pain than pleasure is a bad thing because... ?????
@@xenn4985 Because pain is unpleasant and causes suffering, therefore it is bad.
The question antinatalism asks is a pretty good one though. Is life even worth living if it's going to be mostly suffering?
@@boianko I think a more wacky argument is that babies live in a sort of paradise but when you concieve them, they are snatched away from that paradise and thrown down to earth, and they'll never return, after they die it's just void. Also there's no way to guarantee your child won't end up getting tortured and murdered, and the risk of that is not one we have the moral right to take.
@@xenn4985 What if there is no human condition? What if life really is an equation?
In the theme of anime, any moral dilemma I find in my life I answer with one simple question - "What would Kamina from Gurren Lagann say?", and boy, would he be pissed just because I made this question...
Battles and fights are supposed to be hard, and I feel Attack on Titan drilled into our minds that the fights that happen in it are specially hard by showing us all the gore and loss all the time, but that's the trap we shouldn't fall into in life. Bringing back my boy Kamina, technically he and his crew went through a way bigger quest than Zeke or Eren (we just don't see blood and gore because the themes are different, but still, the scale of Simon's saga is amazingly bigger), but he looked at it another way. He lived in that shit village all his life without access to the sun, which could compare to Eren's walls or Zeke's parents, but never lost hope on breaking the sky, an ambition as big as the Jaeger Bros. Kamina then got a powerfull way to break through the oppression and actually went through with his plan, which again are parallel to stuff that also happened in Attack on Titan. The biggest difference in all of this is how he looked at his problems and how he confronted them - with hope and the will to change all of it.
"Ah, so that's it, we just need hope and we're all good and dandy!" - NO, absolutely not. Again, battles and fights are supposed to be hard, so even Kamina had casualties, and he never even got to get through with it all to the end, but he had the will and hope that inspired all of his future!
To a more delicate subject, to which I realise I am not qualified to speak that much about so I'll make it quick - what if this question was asked towards the black slaves that came from Africa to America in the XVI century? Not so debatable now, huh... I'm not even gonna say if the suffering they endured back then was worth anything at all, because by god how they suffered, but still - black people are finally getting their place in society after all this history of brutality, and to hope that people in our future will end up always getting better lives then who stayed behind kind of kills off Zeke's plan to me.
I just wanna end this whole talk by saying that I recently got back to thinking this Kamina argument and it's been going great in my life. I'm no Eren, I'm no Zeke, no Kamina.... I'm not even black! But to each their battles, and I kind of lost mine - I killed myself in 2019. I had this whole "the future suffering will end" idea when I did it. My "suffering motive" was pretty low compared to all that I said here, but still, where will you cross a line? Is it even worth it crossing a line when we're talking about something so long like future generations of people? Can I say the same for my own life when I took it 3 years ago, knowing that I can actually live for 50 more? Would it be worth it for Eldians to enter a war with Marleyans, spending 2 to maybe 3 more generations of fighting, to end up solving this with diplomacy for the future generations to come? Battles and fights are supposed to be hard, and by no means I'll say that the casualties in them are worthless, but I say we should have more hope and always keep fighting, so that this moment of war becomes a page in history books compared to the greatness the future holds for everyone!
So yeah, screw Zeke's plan, and most importantly, screw Eren's dumb plan.
Sir please, you're not allowed to find meaning in the struggle of life. You're supposed to wallow in self loathing!
@@xenn4985 DO THE IMPOSSIBLE SEE THE INVISIBLE ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH
@@pedronogueira5267 TOUCH THE UNTOUCHABLE BREAK THE UNBREAKABLE ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWAH
10:57 I don't agree that we should only care about the suffering of those in the now, and that it will help the people of tomorrow. Climate change for example, will undoubtedly harm those in the future who many have not been born yet, but it will take a while, so to maximize the current happiness it would be best to not really care about or be limited by the risks of climate change, being "eco friendly" is hurting a lot of people that are desperate for money to feed themselves. You could argue that climate change is close enough to effect current generation, but thats not the point.
Admittedly I didn't watch whole video, just few secs near end so may have missed something cuz I'm pretty busy rn, so might have missed something idk, maybe i'll watch whole later.
underrated channel
You're the best! 😄 Thank you
Discovered your channel and loving it. Great work!
Thank you so much! I hope you content to enjoy my content. :D
Compared to Eren's plan Zeke's plan was very peaceful and effective. From the second ending we know Eren's plan didn't work and war is still going on with Eldia vs the world.
To be fair, Zekes Plan would also kill the marleyans. They are at war with the World and would lose without the titans. So yeah, both plans have no effect on the existence of War
@@dustingrimmmagic1067 Killing the marleyan's is not the problem with Eren's plan, the problem is he is killing literally everyone else on the planet.
@@truesheltopusik1140 because it's the realistic option rather than to take away every womans ability to have children,90 percent of the world would agree with mass genocide (me being one of them),we aren't some cops who lived our whole lives to fight for justice, marley fights for worse and the world is no better, paradis was the only real innocent nation after what happened because Reiner and bertholdt couldn't stop fighting
@@kyledeguzman5196 paradis is not "innocent", they started the whole thing, yes those individuals are dead, and currently they are innocent, but so are most of the people in the outside world. And it's not taking the ability of every woman to reproduce, it's just a very small portion of total population, I'm sure if you asked anyone not watching AOT it would be the better option than mass genocide.
@@kyledeguzman5196 how is taking women ability to reproduce for just one race worse than murdering billions ?
Suffering isn't always bad, and it isn't always moral to end it. For example a lot of healing processes cause pain, yet make the body more healthy and more powerful, like growing or healing bones, or physical therapy from a serious injury. Suffering directs people to better their station in life, which makes things better for them, therefore making the suffering not wholly evil. Practicing a sport or skill, with accompanying physical pain, leads to excellence and betterment, in direct proportion to the suffering endured, arguably making the suffering good, because it was for the sake of something better. Mental suffering, such as overcoming trauma or facing your own toxic behaviour can make you a stronger and better person. Creative work can be suffering, when you are stuck with a story or a work of art, but will make many people's lives better.
You can't even conclusively argue that all suffering is harmful or bad, it's a great motivator for becoming a better person.
(On a personal note, I suffer from chronic pain, which would cripple me, if I did nothing about it. No amount of drugs completely takes my pain away. The only remedy is exercise, which causes me pain and suffering, but the pain also is relieved by the excercise and by continued practice. So for me a philosophy that suffering is bad, is just impossible to understand or to consider, it is only because of suffering that we can gain the strength to continue.)
Correct? The point is NEITHER solution is correct. BOTH plans are bad.
I completely agree with you
I can say if no body is ever born then we certainly wouldn't have conversations like this so maybe it is a good thing.... Idk
It's a shitty thing but I agree if titans aren't born titans aren't killing living humans
Why don't you have more subscribers? This video was awesome!
Super well put together video! definitely made me think a lot harder about zeke and the series as a whole
Eren”s plan makes sense as humans gave birth to the titan power Ymir was a by product of our greed and the only way it could be stopped is by killing everyone. Zeke thinks that freeing them from the curse of Ymir would ultimately make them free but no humans would still find something to destroy peace . So actually eren is killing the root cause and that is humans themselves .
9:45
Me a negetive utilitarian and EFIList: yes actually but only if those are the 2 options. Preferably gene editing and mass sterilization for the animals while af first targeting none key stone species.
While humans voluntarily go extinct.
Antinatalism is correct and incorrect as it ignores the animals as well as general negetive utilitarian values. But, I agree with it in general. That humans shouldn't reproduce, besides systematically, with the only goal of human reproduction being to continue humanity long enough to end animal life, and then we can die out.
Obviously yeah the chances of humanity getting on board with this are nearly nothing but aye. No suffering is better than suffering
So long as you believe in objective morality I think anti-natalism and or EFILism/ Negetive Utilitarianism can be argued solidly
I agree to some extends. Like I belive that the word in a whole would be better of without humenkind. Still I wont kill people like Zeke did, because for me. What's important for me is being able to talk to people that have simillary ideologi like me. While Zeke and I share simillary ideologi, I belive that killing people without their consent just because it's dosent fit my ideologi is just wrong
Something I just wanted to point out: you mention that through sterilization, one’s consent to have this procedure done on their reproductive organs is done without their consent which you argue is a bad thing. While I think that’s fair, you don’t seem to acknowledge that the same can be said for every person who has been born. Idk about you, but I don’t remember anybody asking me before I was born if I wanted to be born. I was just born because my parents made that decision for me without taking my perspective into consideration.
For me, I compare it to how we discuss that “silence isn’t consent” during sex. If that can be said about sex, than an unborn child’s “silence” (or inability to consent) cannot be taken as consent. Thus, in this framing, this makes the parents the “oppressors”, not at all considering the consent of the child and simply giving birth for selfish reasons. Taking away a parent’s ability to commit this act against the consent of the child can therefore be ethically dicey and I can see arguments for it going either way, although I’m personally more sympathetic to the consent of the unborn child as I’m definitely someone who wishes they remained unborn. That doesn’t mean btw that I don’t enjoy my life b/cuz I definitely do, just that being birthed itself is ultimately meaningless and it wouldn’t have made a difference to unborn me had I stayed unborn.
I think with Zeke, his actions are more in line with eugenics while his underlying ideology is more antinatalist, making judging his actions as ethical or non-ethical more based on your perception of what you think is more important to consider in ethics: actions or thoughts? In my view, actions always come first. As an antinatalist, I cannot ever condone Zeke’s goal as it was only ever focused on a single race and even if I did for whatever reason agree, he would have only been in the right had he succeeded, which he didn’t. Without him succeeding, all he did was cause massive amounts of suffering for, ultimately, nothing.
Definitely an interesting topic tho. Quality video my dood 👌
Its like trolly problem would you save more people or save person who is close to you.
zeke plan is to sacrifice millions to save billions with mercy and eren wants survival of eldians over countless lives.
I was facinated with the idea of ozymandias (from watchmen)plan to sacrifice of some to save protect other whole in long run but you will do anything in order to protect yourself and your close ones.
to be honest marley had it coming using titans to conquers other for their means treating eldinans like shit, zeke plan was noble ones but opressors should't go unpunished they should face the penance of their sins
Tom Ksaver xDD that was so funny
Well, I have no idea if you even receive notifications on 10months or so old videos but here's my take. First of all, I disagree with the manichean approach of a lot of people in the comments. Well I don't disagree with the general idea that Zeke's plan was not only focused on antinatalism for the sake of the Eldians, but it doesn't mean that he took this idea out of his equation. What i'm trying to say is that one doesn't delete the other one, he saves the world from Titans AND saves future Eldians from suffering.
"sad Naruto on his swing, 😢:( 😢*
Okay I have your attention again. I would agree with you on the anti-antinatalism part, particularly since the suffering and the number of unborn beings is an unknown, having it in your moral compass is just irrational. Aaaalso, it completely neglects any spiritual or religious approach to life. Aaaaalso, it rationalize human experience in a certain of units of suffering vs units of pleasure and I think life is a bit more complex than that. The last run you have when you really have to take a shit is pretty much enjoyable, you took expected pleasure from taking a near-future dump and injected it in what should have been an uncomfortable running experience. what i'm tryna say is that the line between pleasure and pain is also blurry. @bdsm where u at?
I agree on Zeke's plan. It creates just "Emotional Damage"
I also agree on Eren's plan.
I don’t disagree with the asymmetry argument, but I see it as more of an argument for Negative Utilitarianism, and not necessarily Antinatilism. If the pleasure experienced from conscious beings during their life alone outweighs the pain they experience, then they don’t even need the good of non-pain to make life worth living.
I totally understand why Zeke wants to euthanize eldians, but I consider him to be in the wrong for this plan.
I see where Zeke is coming from and antinatalism as a whole but there’s always that fear of missing out. People that might’ve been born in the future might miss out on something grand.
Don't think antinatalism is a good representation of what's going through Zeke's head. Another comment explained it better but there's more to Zeke's plan than just preventing the further suffering of his own people...
I've replied to another comment as to why I disagree. But even in the latest episode Zeke makes it very clear that his ultimate goal is to "end the cycle of suffering" he even explicitly says so. So I don't find the antinatalism comparison to be completely irrelevant and off the mark.
All I’m sayin is Zeke is Uncle Ruckus, the warriors and Titan holders had the power to drop Marley, but Zeke wanted the easy way out. Let’s be real LMAO
Gotta think about all the elderly Eldians that won’t be able to defend themselves in the future too..
10 minutes of suffering
“Flashbacks to Marine Corps Bootcamp”
Nobody:
Me: AOT THE GAME BACKGROUND MUSIC
I agree on some extant because of Existentialism...
Comparing the premises of both eren and zeke's plans neither in my opinion are in positions to talk about morals on account both share a similar result in the prevention of life acting on. Eren just so happens to act on the defensive followed by retaliation while zeke acts on the offensive followed by passiveness of circumstance. True life holds it's weight of suffering but never is it anyone's call to pull the plug on reproduction even if the ones that could be conceived are born of a particular raice, humanity is surrounded by a number of apex predators that could do a number on humanity but like wild animals titans arguably could be dealt with without having to act on the expense of those who could turn into titans. If nothing else the true problem isn't even the titans, it's those who lack the rein of the titans who're the issue. Power hungry characters being human where it's self centered acting aggressive towards those who simply want to center themselves in their own setting where at best it's isolating. If nothing else it'd be more sensible for both sides to simply disarm their war weapons from eldian territory and outside territory. Once more to seal the deal just schedule a event where the last known shifter titans are publicly seen dying before both raices to ensure trust betweenboth sides.
I get that in order for one to feel safe there'd have to be something to act safe against but if the threats are removed from the equation there's no longer a excuse for ethier to act unnecessary towards the other. Specifically by removing active pure titans from the open field, removing the means to turn into shifter titans and removing weapons designed to lower populations.
It's potentially wishful thinking I'm aware, but long as the concerns are present anyone will act on a one sided excuse just to act on a dispute. If necessary it's also worth mentioning to set new rulers in charge that care more about the betterment of individual societies instead of worrying about what's going on in other societies. Even if outside civilizations have eye catching inventory and resources at their disposal it's no excuse to let envy and greed be what stems killer friction. It's like seeing kids fighting over what other kids have simply because they want it and have the man power to take it like a bunch of bullies, this is where I'd advise even to initiate a strategy to captain the one raging war against eldian and use the opportunity of extortion to initiate a settlement. Particularly one that ensures the life of the stolen ruler long as the subjects of that ruler keep themselves from causing any more damage.
i try to imagine if this situation happen in our real world i'd probably be on zeke side to be honest even if its wrong cuz this power is a threat and i would want eldians to be wiped out peacfully as possible like nuclear bomb i wish we eradicate all around right now peacefully . you have to admit that titan is scary imagine we have terrorist using spinal fluid to create titans around the world to use them for bad reason. in myu opinion it would be hard for eldian to leave peacfully even for people who are scared about titans. euthanization would be wrong but i dont know what else would be better . this is a good show im questioning about my morality i try to be realistic here knowing that im wrong
1:17 I just got in trouble at work for laughing at this. Great video!
Number of subs too low for the quality of the vid
Wow, thank you so much! That means a lot
Hi, clicked the vid to add to my watch later.l, so I haven't watched yet.
That being said, NO. Zeke's plan wrought about everything that the world outside of paradis feared most about the Eldians. Instead of breaking down the stigma against Eldians, Marley reinforced it as a means of slavery and conquest, continued sending titans to paradis, and even sent agents in for sleeper missions. They had the prophecy to warm them and they brought it on themselves.
This user supports the actions of Eren Jaeger and his subordinates.
If Zeke did this to the whole world I wouldnt hate him
If this happened to the real world I still wouldnt be mad
But I wouldnt do it bcz I believe what I believe in these kind of matter is no superior to a normal people
Zeke did noting wrong
Without watching the video : His plans are dumb as hell xd
Even though I'm a nihilist I agree that others should not be denied pleasure, especially something that is ingrained in our evolutionary biology like having children.
If the founding titan can alter Eldian dna then couldn’t he stop Eldians from being able to turn into titans?
that wouldn't stop the world from hating paradise
the answer is yes
I dont think Issyama came up with it on his own
It might be a little deviation from Buddhism
Infact I came up with this argument myself , ironically 2 -3 days bcz I started watching this series
Interesting vid. You watch alt shift x at all? Your speech pattern reminds me of him.
I have definitely watched his stuff. Now I'll have to watch him again just to see. Lol.
oh comon ... as a german this killed me ! 4:30 Zeke .. Sieg .. Sieg !
My first thoughts about his plan were, why not take away the titan abilities? Wouldn’t that remove the fear around them?
But you have to convince ymir, and if ymir follow her only goal to defend the first king who enslave her by making titan, she won't listen.
And mahr and ppl around the world cannot prove that titan ability has been erased so they would still be living like that
*manga spoiler*
That's why eren come into play showing her that she can be free by getting killed by mikasa by doing the rumble
Wouldnt stop the World from hating eldians, take away any chance of fighting back they have and would make Marley lose the global war. It would make sense if the whole world wasnt against eldians
But anyways people hate eldians right, so even if they were sterilized would take atleast a 100 yrs to go extinct and why would the rest of the world wait for 100 yrs they might just throw a nuke at them and boom it's over. In a recent episode, Zeke said that he would sterilize eldians first and use the rumbling later if needed but that's the point, with technology developing around the world the one and only weapon that eldia has is the rumbling .
@@proxy450 he planned to use the rumbling on a small scale. Once demonstrated, no one would dare attack
@@dustingrimmmagic1067 but if they wouldn't attack then there would be no suffering so what's the point of doing euthinization plus Zeke assumed that all subjects of ymir were suffering but people within the walls were leading a peaceful and a happy life even eren was leading a peaceful life till the wall fell, you can say that subjects of ymir abroad were suffering but why should people within the walls lose their freedom, that's why Armin and hanjes plan of using the rumbling on a small scale made more sense cause then they would have enough time to break free of the Titans curse by researching, both eren and zekes plan were extreme
Lets say, eldian is HIV patient. Do you think its morally right for them to make a baby thats going to inherent their sickness? I have cancer and there is big risk that my baby going to inherent it, so there is no way i am going to selfishly bring baby into this world with my sickness. The same with eldia, their DNA is 100 times big risk than HIV, because with little lick of spinal fluid they can turn into man eating monster. So my point is, eldia should lives, but not reproduce so their baby wouldnt be cursed with Titan DNA. As long as titan exist, the world are going to see eldian as titan.
Ending all life on earth is not bad.
Probably not, but it's a good few pegs above Eren's
Short answer no, long answer.....
According to your line of logic, if there was a situation where you had the opportunity to cure cancer for all future humans, none today, but all that are born from this point onwards, but it would cost 1000 people their lives to get that cure, you would choose to reject it because your short vision of the world only applies to the here and now.
According to that logic, we should not aim to make our lives more inconvenient to stop climate change, because its worst effects will permanently affect future generations and only the now matters, right?
You present a very short sighted vision of this philosophy which has and does to this day cause incredible amounts of suffering for us today because some oil companies that made the first broad research on climate change 50 years ago decided their profit was more important than the planet in the future and we get to see it fall apart for it.
You have to see what a destructive, immature and dangerous perspective that is, right?
How it has to appeal to emotion to reject the logic of the argument behind Zekes plan.
The alternative was that Billions died through Eren, resentment stayed, wars continued, so did suffering and its larger scope and threat through the existance of Titans, of people that could easily be forcefully turned into very dangerous terrorist weapons in cities, where they couldnt be killed quickly or easily no matter how good the weapons get.
With a colossal Titan that can raze a city in a day, a Founder that is either a King figure, a god that invalidates democracy and principles of divide of power unless he´s enslaved and shifters, including the Attack Titan that is guranteed to rebel and cause trouble, as well as the curse shortening their lives and Yimir still being eternally enslaved in a hell she has to forever toil away in.
Even with how cruel Zeke was, his methods imperfect and his actions irredeemable, ultimately the goal would have been worth it.
The logic is flawless and only emotial appeal to stuff that doesnt work and isnt appliable to justify the opposition works against it.
"Sorry that we ruined the planet, but burning tons of fossil fuels made our economy really good for about 100 years or so and we just loved driving in our muscle cars way too much.
You wouldnt want to forcefully take that away from us, would you? For what? To save billions of people, the worlds ecology and its systems stability for the coming thousands to millions of years?"
You realize that we ARE seeing the current impacts of climate change, right? When I say "we" I mean a collective. Poor countries are absolutely being demolished because of climate change, 1000x more than richer ones right now. So even by my logic in this video, climate change should absolutely be dealt with.
@@literalmaverick8608 it should be reacted to, not dealt with permanently.
What is a accurate description of your line of thinking is a "Reactionairy Mindset".
According to your argumentation we should only deal with the things we can see and feel the effect of right now, not worry about the effects our actions have in the future.
It should be obvious how this mindset it wrong, but climate change is simply a excellent example of how we it failed already and will continue to fail if we dont collectively think further ahead than literal animals and use our ability to think abstractly, predicting the effects of our actions and acting to preemptively prevent them.
This mental failure and reactionairy thought is sadly still a very common mindset and often represented in media, even if its negative effects are shown.
Just beacuse our mind tricks us into not feeling for some realities as much as those closer to us it doesnt make them less real.
We today are victims of it and our inaction will lead to countless generations in the future cursing us for it the way we curse the one before us.
It is the same with Zeke, only even the momentary cost is lower than what Eren does.
no i dont agree with zeke. ending the suffering of eldian people is not by stopping their generation or ending their life's. the way to ending eldian's people suffering is by ending the cycle of hatred to one a nother and create world peace.
spoiler alert down ahead
speaking of witch i dont agree to eren as well. he thinks that the only way to end eldian's people suffering is by destroying every other human race, and let the eldian live in the world piece fully (world piece.
like i said obtaining world peace is not by destroying other human race or ending every human race. thats just wrong.
like in this real world what we do to obtain world piece is by ending the cycle of hatred to one and other and create the cycle of sympathy towards one and other and does creating world peace
Easier said that done...the cycle of hatred wud have never ended as long as eldians had the power to transform into titans... zekes plan by far sounds the most rational to me
Damnit Yelena, she really didn't want to taste a long, hard tube huh
The rumbling is based
The youthanization plan is cringe
Genocide in self defense is justified
This comment has to be a troll, not only because it's insane, but because of "youthanization." That's too funny to have been on accident. Lmao
@@literalmaverick8608 But anyways people hate eldians right, so even if they were sterilized would take atleast a 100 yrs to go extinct and why would the rest of the world wait for 100 yrs they might just throw a nuke at them and boom it's over. In a recent episode, Zeke said that he would sterilize first and use the rumbling later if needed but that's the point, with technology developing around the world the one and only weapon that eldia has is the rumbling .
@@proxy450 and that's why zeke said he will pass the founding Titan to historia kids, basically holding the world at gun point, to allow the final generation of eldians to live peacefully and if the world tried attacking, they activate the rumbling and take out some military bases as a threat
no.
after reading the horrible last chapter, I think zeke plan was better
simple: it wanst conceitual, so no. nut yeah the idea itself isnt evil.
I know I didn't agree with the plan right out the gate, but it was really because I thought it was dumb (also immoral). If you can literally rewrite DNA, can't you just remove Titan powers, and wouldn't that have a similar result?
Nope. Human will never changed, they will never believe that titan power removed except all eldian go extinct just like the ending of 139 when marleyan still pointing gun at all eldian even tho they can prove it with blood test. Furthermore, Eldian will be powerless without titan power they will get massacred. Starting from all eldian in Liberio will be executed or to be fodders in war against other nation. Then paradise cuz the resources, will get banged by the whole nations in the world.
Zeke seeks
Zeke Seeks
No but neither is erens tbh
Lmao... at 2:21 was tht a dig at Naruto?
Your understanding of antinatalism is lacking. What Zeke is doing is called eugenics, not antinatalism. He's choosing only a specific population to sterilize.
I think it could be argued that Zeke is somewhere in the middle between eugenics and antinatalism. The reason being is because, while you could argue that the motive has some eugenics-based undertones-- such as wanting to "rid" the world of titans-- it certainly also has antinatalist logic as well. That logic being that he wishes to rid the Eldians of future suffering by none of the future generations being born. It all ultimately relies on the motive, and I believe that his motive does lie somewhere inbetween. But ultimately I also chose to speak about antinatalism because it's fairly under-discussed, and it's an interesting and thought-provoking topic.
@@literalmaverick8608 It's somewhat difficult to understand his motives as antinatalistic as he focuses only on one group of people. So he isn't against bringing new people into existence. He is only against bringing Eldians into existence. I don't know of any antinatalists philosopher who would have these eugenic arguments.
And since you mentioned Benatar's book, it's easy to see that his arguments would apply to all people (and titans and animals).
I focus on antinatalism due to his belief that he is ridding Eldians of "future suffering." In the scene where he first comes up with the plan, he lists negating suffering as one of his central reasons for the plan. The negation of suffering is central to antinatalist beliefs. No, I do not think that Zeke has 1:1 antinatalist beliefs that can be connected to a particular thinker. However, I don't think it's absurd to say that his beliefs hinge on a fundamental aspect of antinatalism, and that's the belief that suffering occurs upon birth. Yes, Zeke believes this to be true only of Eldians, but I think that would just mean he has a narrow version of antinatalism, rather than that the antinatalist similarities should just be tossed because it's not exactly the same as Benetar's version. Also, you mention animals, but there are certainly antinatalists who don't have that opinion about animals. Would those people not then be antinatalists because they don't apply the belief to all living beings? What I'm saying, again, is that antinatalism ultimately relies on the belief that birth necessitates suffering. Zeke believes that, but only with Eldians. Thus he has a narrow, more focused version of antinatalism that is also linked with a eugenics argument because he also believes that the Titans are bad for the world. Again, it's a nuanced take.
Zeke remembered me of Rusty Cole and Cioran, with the difference that Rusty has a sense of honor and a spiritual opening while Cioran dosent take himself seriously. If Zeke had any of the 3 - honor, spirituality or cynicism - he wouldnt be the imbecil he is. Thats why I like the solution with Armin: a leaf is sufficent to show how utilitarism and nihilism are childish schools of thought. Zeke's mistake was that he was always a baby.
Still, it's incredible How many adults considers étics with the Idea of freedom and happines can be achieve by not existing. Poetically, great stuff. Philosophically, funny stuff
Here's the simple answer. No it fucking isnt
What's a less cruel alternative?
@@dustingrimmmagic1067 what do you mean?? His plan is to literally sterilize all eldians. The less cruel option is to just not do that
@@dustingrimmmagic1067 "what's a less cruel alternative to eugenics?" Idk man how about just... not doing eugenics???
@@akihikosakurai4013 and let eldians be killed when Marley gets the founder? Any other option involves more cruel methods being applied to other groups, what alternative do you see fit to resolve the conflict they are in?
@@dustingrimmmagic1067 just don't let Marley get the founder
Oh hell no
Also, your videos are great! Love them
also genocide