The GUI should be better. A lot better.
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- Опубліковано 9 чер 2020
- We're all trapped in an alternate reality where the GUI is still bad. I don't know if we're going to make it.
Link to forum discussion:
www.accursedfarms.com/forums/...
Link to reddit discussion:
/ the_gui_should_be_bett...
accursedfarms.com - Ігри
To everyone who thinks my GUI is ugly: I know, I half-hate it too, though I 3/4 hate default Windows. I'm at the end of my rope here, hence the video. Help me find the way!
DOS
A big part of your argument is for simplicity in usage and display (why have a tab-close button when i can middle click? why show a big ugly taskbar when i can click and bring it up when i need it?) but the problem with this is that these design choices make a GUI harder to learn, even if learnt it might be easier/better to use. So it depends where you stand; do you fight an up-hill battle to learn GUI-fu? Or do you eat the spoon-fed slop that Microsoft feeds you?
If you want to go full GUI-fu, try listen to those Linux Miyagis and go full command-prompt. A lot of the time, having customized it to your liking, and having learnt all the right shortcuts and commands, it is a lot faster than using the mouse at all (avoiding that mouse-to-keyboard swap one of your hands needs to do). Avoids a lot of those issues you brought up with inaccuracy against tiny buttons, and hacked together custom GUIs breaking to the chaos with age too. Many Linux distros are very highly customizable too.
To be fair though, not all things can be replaced with the command shell. Text editors, file operations, sure; but stuff like image editing or browsing the web, or playing video games - you're going to have to get back to the mouse; there's no avoiding it. To that end, you really can't complain about the operating system then- it's up to each of those individual applications to do their best to maximize usability.
Arch Linux
Here's hoping.
I don't mind the Windows UI much (and I find little worth the effort in your setups), but I've never felt like I can sort stuff efficiently. Games in particular really resist genre sorting on the desktop or even menus. I need like, tags, maybe adaptive bubbles, idk...
If someone makes a GUI with your listed features (perhaps inspired by the video, you've got some pull and I doubt that community is too big for it to mostly reach (but hopefully a very customizable GUI (please not just for Ross))) it'll be good for everyone.
@@jechet10 He specifically mentioned at some point he'd like a GUI that's great for when you know exactly what you want to do. So not for the general public, for you. Or at least PC halfway-savvy people. I personally don't need or love some things he mentions, but I would use them.
I think Windows programming fails in the efficiency regard to an extent that any GUI can't fully fix it though.
edit: fixed a confusing sentence
Every time Ross makes one of these videos I imagine myself stuck waiting for a bus and Ross is a total stranger who approaches me and just starts talking the contents of this video at me. Its like im there
Almost exact pitch of First Game Dungeon.
-me at the bus waiting
-Ross Scott (pulls out clipbord): Welcome to the Inagural episode of Ross game dungeon, im Ross! so what is this show? well the first thing I should get out the way is the game dungeon is not an SM themed game show! but if that is what your expecting I am sorry, it is not what you are looking for...atleast not this episode.
-me staring in absolute disbelief
@@KaptajnKaffe we didn't really get the S&M episode until Phantasmagoria 2 last year, huh?
Sir, this is a Wendys.
@ThisIsMyRealName it depends on the country but usually it is true. Also finding a parking space is annoying and the traffic jam
This is all because of the Library of Alexandria burnings.
The transition from scrolls to bound books is a good example of an evolving user interface.
Don't forget the Baghdad house of wisdom too, yet another revolution in great UI's burnt to a crisp.
@@theoreticalphysics3644 UIs*
str8 up
@@gododoof Degrading I'd argue, the only advantage of books is in the volume of content for it's size.
coming back to this now that windows 11 is out... imagine being able to move the taskbar. we had no idea how good we had it back then.
Windows 12 will only work if you have been boosted in the last 30 days.
@@Zodroo_Tint lol.
There's also a beta/insider update that "accidentally" put ads inside the file explorer. Yeah, future in windows is bleak
I am still unreasonably upset that I can't put my taskbar on the right side of my screen. The built-in like... side-by-side window layouts are also garbage- why can't I stack two windows vertically without fiddling with everything when I can do it vertically? and vertically with only like two specific layouts??? It's so damn arbitrary
I have to laugh. Really? You can't move it? The thing that every taskbar has done since the introduction of the concept?
Ross is actually ricing his linux distro without installing linux, the absolute madman.
What does "ricing" mean?
@@Sewblon The phrase means to express the practice of customizing, souping-up, or making a *nix (Linux) desktop or installation more interesting. It comes from the racecar cosmetic industry.
@@TheToomykins Yeah, you hear that explanation thrown around but it's far more likely that "ricing"
actually refers to "rice" since 99% of Linux "ricing" is done by gay or trans autistic recluses who cover
their GUI with anime and manga, specifically loli.
None of those people are even remotely interested in cars.
Imagine civilization collapsed tomorrow and a thousand years from now the only video from our time is this one.
I bet the GUI preaching would heavily influence the people of the future and the little references unrelated to GUI (like the pope and the artist that can draw a perfect circle) would be considered precious nuggets of history.
kilmindaro3 DONT JINX IT
I feel it gets across the futility of our times, that something as simple as advancing an OS GUI beyond the most basic level is beyond the reach of our civilization.
If it wasn't for Ross talking about moving your hands, and aliens found this video, they would think we were a software species.
@@handsomebrick I see it more like our civilization has solved so many problems that the only problems we have left, other than obvious ones of course i can't stress that enough that there are still real problems pls do not reee at me, are problems like advancing GUI :D
A GUI should be like a texture pack for dwarf fortress.
Bill Gates needs to give Tarn Adams a job, then we can achieve true world peace.
Minus the unnecessary arguing over it part.
@@sorrynothing5602 I thought arguing was the whole point?
@@Delbraceified Or the world's biggest tantrum spiral, as we run out of alcohol...
Where you hate everybody who has a different one from you!
“You’re not building up character by putting up with inefficiencies” will be my senior quote if I don’t end up finding a better one.
I think the biggest takeaway for me with this video is that my PC is MINE and if I don't like something about how it functions, I CHANGE IT. I have this attitude with most things in life, but this video was the push needed to get me to think this way about how I use my PC. “You’re not building up character by putting up with inefficiencies” *damn straight*
It isn't yours though, It doesn't matter what OS you use. Linux, windows or mac. Somebody else created that and you are forced to operate by the rules that the particular OS sets.
And no, linux isn't infinitely customizable unless you have infinite time and money.
@@BumboLooks time I get, but money? for Linux??
@@ng.tr.s.p.1254 If you're a millionaire you have even more spare time. You could stop working for two years and everything would still be fine.
@@BumboLooks Bruh, i'm pretty sure there's a ton of ways to customize linux either for free or for cheap. And in america at least, you have the right to repair whatever property you own. This includes your electronics.... although this gets harrier because technically "circumventing copyright protection" is in fact illegal, so.... it's a legally grey battleground when it comes to stuff like Nintendo or Apple. However with windows, I don't think they monopolize computers like that.
All good ui designers went off to design mobile interfaces and were destroyed by how limited touch screen is.
Survivers moved onto web design and were eaten by market forces demaning more ad banners and humans of flat.
Oh, so accurate!
You go where the money is. On a more serious note, the simple fact that desktop application design has almost never been at the forefront of development projects. There are exceptions, sure, but even the best software UI has room for improvement. Furthermore, Operating System designers have the very difficult task of developing UX flows for a very large multitude of workflows out there, and there is no one-size-fits-all UX out there. Some are more opinionated than others.
What about programmers enthusiasts that moved to Linux?
The phone GUI building tools are great, but it feels terrible that they are designed for tiny limited human interfaces.
@@VanStabHolme There isn't a critical mass of them for Linux to become mainstream and they are further fragmented between numerous distros and interfaces. That being said, the best looking PC UIs I have ever seen are all on Linux. It's just that it takes a lot of work to customize such a GUI and most users will never do that themselves.
Steve Wosniak gave me a hug when I was security for him once.
Was it the warmest embrace you've ever had?
He was just feeling up your kidneys, he was hungry.
@@TheHighsea hahaha oh God that one got me!
I read his book ages ago. Its a really good read. iWoz.
aw…
I've been saying for years to any tech-literate person I meet that ergonomics in the tech industry are fucking awful. It's so cathartic to see you mirror my thoughts with an audience that's willing to listen.
He's identified the problem but I think his solution requires you to have sacrificed your mind and eyes to Chthonic entities before you start grasping his illogic.
You and him have indeed identified the problem. It is Windows. The solution may not be comfortable, but I gotta say, programming one's desktop to do as you will will of it is a powerful feeling.
47:09 Literally a minute BEFORE you talked about buttons being tiny, I wanted to maximize the browser window and I closed it instead.
The precision thing is one of the biggest and most unquestionable GUI problem.
There is zero reasons why the "close program" button should be at the same corner as the other buttons. It's tempting fate for no benefits.
@@trustytrest Put it on the furthest left!
Wait, hold on. I'm getting a note here: That's not possible in Windows.
"I haven't seen Ross in a while, I wonder what he's up t-"
*Ross Slams through the wall in a 1 hour and 17 minute truck*
Welcome to the rice fields
@Omne Obstat That's one humongous truck.
He's painting trees in heaven
This comment got me thinking. For whatever reason, youtubes algorithm HATES showing me Ross's videos. I pretty much always have to look myself.
THE MOVIE was here all along. And it was all about the GUI
In computer maintenance we always said “gooey”, since you are saying GUI a lot might have helped to just say that instead.
I HAVE to make the GUI!!!
i was confused then i looked at the time stamp and oh my god
The highly anticipated sequel to "games as a service is a fraud"
@@Urothewarrior But is it made in Visual Basic?
Ross i'm ruined, now im gonna spend 100 hours making my custom desktop with litestep, and im gonna love every second of it.
Litestep is inactive and doesn't work on Windows 10 like at all I suggest using Cairo Shell if you haven't figured this out in the months since you posted this but Cairo Shell can be as simple or complex to use as you please
@@AlexJonesGaming thank you alex jones 😎
Cardio shell seems to be so far off from litestep that you can't compare it to litestep
Take a look at Linux!
@@CodingWithBen never
I'm considered an oddball, but I love the aesthetics of 95 because of how functional it is with its subtle design cues. It was the last time MS put any serious study and effort into designing a UI and the results speak for themselves if we're still using a derivative of that design language 25+ years later. There were bits and pieces that made it better in 98, ME, 2K, XP, and 7, but for the most part we've also been regressing along side adding the occasional new functionality.
Thus, I make 7 look like 95, then add in the bits and pieces of modern Windows to improve how it works. I'm after maintaining the patterns of efficiency that I find to be burned into my skull, then spice it up with aspects that improve my experience from there. Also, I love the skilled artwork of classic desktop icons, so I aim to recreate and showcase my favorite examples thereof whenever possible, even if it's for an audience of one (me).
Let's launch a kickstarter and create the ultimate operational system: rOSs
I legit laughed at that.
TempleOS already exists
I tried to imagine how you'd pronounce that, and it made my head hurt.
random operating system super
Rational Operating System Solution?
I prefer "fervent follower" to "stalker," but you can call me whatever you like, Ross.
looking at his desktop literally gave me a small panic-attack
Thanks for using our little game UI mockup!
I feel that the devices we use to interact with the machine have a lot of influence on the UI and its defects. For me, the mouse and keyboard are an obstacle to getting things done, and so is the interface. To work fast, I have to remember hundreds of shortcuts, juggling between many applications (programming, art, audio, video editing...).
For me, the ideal UI would be no UI: I'm quite interested in future technologies that could use the brain to do operations. If someday a technology does that reliably, we won't need a graphical interface anymore.
In the meantime, I personally like anything with a command palette, where I can type to filter programs, features, options. Especially when that supports metadata like tags, for example, typing "browser" or "br" to list every browser I have (I do some web dev and have to test the website in different browsers).
It's not only for development: I work with programs that have so many features it's a pain to use to navigate to them, and even things like radial menus slow you down in production: you end up with too many features, too many paths (Blender 3D has a well-designed and configurable radial menu like that).
I experiment a lot with UIs that work best for me, that importantly allow me to not get out of the flow. And it's a patchwork of old, intimidating tools and modern ones. On Linux: using Emacs as my text editor, something that's configurable to the bone, and Gnome as the desktop environment, that's super clean and accessible with a mouse, with a tiling window manager and a command palette. I also use the shell for tasks that are more efficient with a text-based interface than a user interface, such as jumping between project folders and opening related programs automatically, and more.
This setup allows me to use only the keyboard for jobs that work that way (writing, coding), and to use the mouse for tasks where I am going to use the mouse a lot (art, video editing).
Ah, I also use a pen tablet for that, especially video editing. Which is quite different from the mouse.
Hell yeah! I'm excited for brain interfacing to get to the same level that VR is now, even if it had a smaller potential when done without implants. The idea of controlling software with your brain is utopic
tfw godot has been out for years, but not 1 widely known game came out of it
@@gordonfreeman5872 Cruelty Squad is one, but you're not completely wrong, there's a lack of noteworthy games made in Godot.
Godot is probably a hard sell to bigger studios since it doesn't support consoles out of the box and you have to either port the engine yourself or hire a consulting company specializing in it, but that doesn't really explain why medium-sized studios aren't using it more often.
For all the Linux people telling me I need to get off the mouse:
I think you guys may not spend a lot of time doing multimedia editing. Odds are you likely do a lot of coding, where spending all your time on the keyboard can make sense. I spend a huge chunk of time working with images, audio, video, and browsing. I can't even fathom how long that would take using only a keyboard. The mouse has the advantage of being able to make sweeping gestures that can hit everything in its path and being able to jump around to different parts of the screen with varying precision. These functions are needed the more you have to manipulate things visually. It's not that I'm in love with the mouse, it's that I would need an even better peripheral. I think you guys aren't thinking outside the box enough. The keyboard can be extremely fast for some things. I do LOTS of different things.
You should probably pin this comment. I scrolled quite the way before finding it, and already made a "get off the mouse" comment. Oops.
Important video Ross! Check out Circle Dock, almost perfect except that I can't choose the mousebutton without some AHK trickery. Sadly it was discontinued because of some GPL bs and all versions except the buggy alpha were almost completely scrubbed from the net, you can find the latest version here though: www.softpedia.com/get/System/Launchers-Shutdown-Tools/Circle-Dock.shtml
I'd say you just need to get off Windows because you are clearly dissatisfied with it, and try any Linux distro instead - the GUI versions, not the command line ones. Linux overall has the great concepts of "desktop environment" and "window manager" which do let you swap the whole shell with any other, even if the distro itself wasn't "made for it".
To be more specific, try Linux Mint with Xfce and see how that goes.
You can't stop windows 10 updates in the regular parameters, but it takes litterally 1 minute to deactivate them in the windows registry: there are tons of tutorials online. I hate forced updates too.
Thank you, Ross, for saying this loud and proud.
My hand is generally on my mouse all the time. My other hand is often twiddling a pen, holding a cup or a snack, or doing something else. I hate hate hate moving my hands to my keyboard. Often I even copy and paste using the right-click menu. Unless I'm actually writing something like a document, I should not need to use the keyboard.
The command-line zealots, I suspect (like you do), are simply disappointed with the GUIs as they are and have Stockholm-syndromed themselves into thinking the command line is good because it is "powerful" and can't imagine or dare hope for a truly efficient, powerful, and friendly mouse-based GUI.
The circle menu you describe, also called a radial menu or pie menu, has been around as a concept for years. I'd love to see a desktop GUI fully embrace it, making it efficient.
My own personal idea (though it's probably been though of) is a scrollbar for long item lists that doesn't require any clicks. It sits as a vertical strip next to the list of items, and simply moving your mouse into it immediately jumps the list to the corresponding position. No clicks necessary. You scroll to the position you want, then simply move the mouse off the scroll area into the item list to choose the item you want.
I'd love a GUI that's mosue-focused, but efficient, minimizing clicks and movements. It should also take advantage of multiple buttons. Every proper mouse has at least 3 buttons. In my opinion, 5 buttons is the proper amount for a mouse, and they can all be put to good use.
This whole video spoke to me. I don't quite agree on every single detail (your preferred desktop layout is a bit of a mess, and I'm very pro-double-click, even triple-click in some instances), but the general idea and spirit of it is on point. GUIs suck, and in many ways they are getting worse, especially on the Windows side of things.
Great job laying it all out.
"if you have any interest in the GUI... stick around." I mean yeah that sounds pretty cool, but I'm really here to watch Ross yell at me about operating systems for 77 minutes.
Well I said this was for two basic camps.
@@Accursed_Farms I guess I just wasn't ready to accept the title of stalker, but if thine Lord demands it
1:02:40 Pretty clearly shows he doesn't understand GUI design in the first place. So either way watching was a wasted effort.
He is getting pumped from using a mouse XD
@@KiraSlith Eh. Blender recently had a massive UI overhaul that actually made people start looking at it because it's more legible now.
Rewatching this, I now realize just how much of my life is drained having to deal with bad GUIs. My job involves working on multiple windows computers who are reformatted to the same hideous defaults at the end of EVERY SINGLE WORK DAY. It's actually a relief when I can leave the GUI behind and just work on the command line.
Ross:
-works with technology
-has no idea how technology works, and suspects most software not working is due to insufficient offering
-is a heretic
Im pretty sure he is a member of the Dark Mechanicus.
Though that abomination held together by duct tape he calls a desktop looks like something an Ork would build.
Hasbin Hotel PfP..... mentally ill freak identified. Opinion discarded.
"Well I'm on Windows 7, and I'm not gonna be able to stay on it forever. Now I know a few of you out there might try"
*youre damn right im gonna try.*
More power to you, man.
If it's already installed, that's easy enough. If something goes wrong necessitating a reinstall (a hardware failure in my case), you might do what I did and say "Screw it. Installing Linux is easier. I'm moving now." I know there's all sorts of creative desktops available, but I haven't actually tried them. I've been boring and just used the MATE desktop that came with my Linux Mint install, with a change of theme to something a bid 3D and a couple of keyboard shortcuts to replicate two I used all the time on Windows.
Same here brother. I'm using Zeffy's WUFUC workaround to get my "unsupported" Intel Core i7 7700K to work with Windows 7 and Windows Update. I own an install stick of Windows 10 direct from Microsoft, but I'd rather not use an OS with a keylogger installed by default. Not only that, but after more than a month of my own tests using Windows 10 on a virtual machine, my bandwidth overhead for that month was more than a gigabyte higher than if I was just using Win7. Can I see the data you're sending out on my behalf, Microsoft? No? Hard pass.
giganova admire your adamantecy
I was there with you, then things finally got to unstable I finally had bite the bullet and go to Windows10 cause I'm still too scared of the penguin. I already hate it and wish I could go back. At least being able to finally play Horizon 4 softened the blow.
Ross's GUI Dungeon.
Ugh! Sticky...
I feel this is a little beyond a dungeon.
The 'copy-paste doesn't work' thing seems to only happen on websites, so I think the web developers for those sites put in a bit of code disabling that function. You can't even *highlight* most text on FFNet.
That certainly happens, but the copy function randomly and silently fails also happens to me outside of browsers, so this can't be the whole explanation.
@@Spiderboydk Huh. Any particular programs it happens in?
@@brigidtheirish I don't remember the contexts, because it happens so rarely, but I'm pretty sure it has happened in Windows Explorer at some point.
@@Spiderboydk Not surprising. Windows Explorer has some odd problems.
@@brigidtheirish Happens often with Word post 2007.
My vision of the perfect GUI was once an adaptive system that caters itself to you, the specific user/owner.
Like a tree that grows branches, the OS would seem empty at first, but then add new layers /junctions whenever you integrate new software. It'll learn which programs are most commonly used, or which are used one after the other, and emphasize them (making them easier to choose).
...So you've reinvented the recently used programs option?
what is this I'm not watching an hour+ long video about GUIs
(1 hour and 17 minutes later)
Pro "insert infamous boomer-shooter name here" when, Civvie?
And there's no skipping A Game Dungeon Rant. The mold deems it so.
ross's game dungeon follow-up episode #2 when civvie?
civvie is here! HELL FROZE OVER!
watch the video Civvie
Oh hey Civvie, i sent you an ROTT cover in twitter DMs
8:35 "Put the taskbar on different sides of the screen" thats got windows 11 users shaking in there boots
"NONE ARE WITHOUT SIN!"
For this man's voice, I would gladly go on a Crusade. It'll probably be for something dumb and get everyone but him killed, but the voice compels.
Lol!
i bt it would be for ross's war against games as a service OR killing video games
I mean, obscure game Jesus is a great person to crusade for.
"Leave everything to us" and "Almost there" gave me chills when he was talking about Windows 10 coming to chop his hands off.
Your past desktops look like the fake operating systems from old hacker movies
Yooo I thought I was the only one without a 'home row!'
Little story: when I was in typing class in 8th grade (it was mandatory unfortunately), by that time I was already well-familiar with keyboards and had developed a motor memory of any keyboard layout so I didn't have to look and I could just lay my hands wherever and find the keys. Anyway my teacher tried to make me use the home row thing for an online typing test but I decided to go against it and prove to her that I didn't need it, so eventually at the end of the year I had gotten an award for the fastest typing and best keyboarding.
Was pretty cool! Showed how I wasted my life on the computer but hey! Least I know my way around one.
That's basically how me and my siblings type. I never really understood the point of the home row.
Schools are just obsessed with uniformity! I'll bet my brothers type like I do too since they use computers as often as me (which is a lot). Maybe it just helps with preventing too many spelling and grammar mistakes? I unno!
The home row slowed me down big time.
28:30 Fun fact: The show desktop button in the bottom right corner was originally introduced in the beta for Windows 98 (in 1996), but was dropped for unknown reasons and not reintroduced until Windows 7, 13 years later.
I recall having something like it on XP too.
49:58
this dude is straight up casting Arx Fatalis spells on his computer, amazing.
I cast... RESTORE WINDOW
Kept chuckling because I could hear Mandalore voice of frustration in my head during that section.
AHM
AHM
AHM
AHM
brilliant
Black & White also used a similar system for miracles and familiar commands
look at this man - the maker of his own suffering, just for just a little bit more ...
We need to apply open source to everything making the most efficient designs possible instead of being at the mercy of poor designers and monopoly control.
Lol... That... That's... Nvm.
For that to work out, you would need skilled, organized, and motivated people. Are you prepared to make and maintain a graphic interface, likely for no material compensation, possibly used by a small amount of people?
@@jakedill1304 thanks for your input
@@thewolfin you know I can count on one hand the amount of posts on this website that didn't exceed at least three paragraphs.. suppose the the trick all along was to say nothing at all LOL just like everybody else... Sigh
@@thewolfin Thanks for not understanding what he was implying....
Every yt video trying to get as much cloud as possible: overacted emotion with an arrow pointing somewhere with super saturated colours.
This vids thumbnail: a man trying to hold on to the last remains of his sanity with an unfiltered gaping mouth.
Perfect
Last time I was this early, Ross wasn't being controlled by the mold
The E Virus hasn't completely claimed him yet.
Contrould by the mould or controlled by the molled?
@@kabob0077 no shit lol, the fungus got to him first
NOOOOOOOOOO STOP IT ROSS
I'VE NEVER PUT TOO MUCH THOUGHT INTO THIS BECAUSE I NEVER KNEW LITESTEP EXISTED AND NOW I CANNOT RESIST.
NOW I HAVE TO GO MAKE A STREAMLINED GUI FOR MY OWN NICHE USE CASES, AND ANYONE WHO SEES MY SCREEN WILL BE MET WITH AN ELDRITCH, INCOMPREHENSIBLE MESS
AAAAAAAAA
Linux offers far better options. Look up dwm or i3.
@@lainiwakura3741 Well, dwm and i3 are about automatic window placement and (in case of dwm or it's forks) workspace management. Most of things that Ross was talking about, are covered by other tools.
Don't worry, I'll stop. This was a one-off, I don't know what else to do from here, it's up to the world now. If you're curious about litestep, try the wayback machine on customize.org, they have a fair number of themes there. You can at least see what it used to be like.
@@Accursed_Farms Hello friend do you have a moment to talk about the church of rainmeter?
I won’t mind if I get that eldritch mess, they tend to have some actual sense
Pie menus, we need more pie menus. It's basically gestures with breadcrumbs and signposts icons showing up each time you change directions.
Videos like this remind me how much I’d love to meet Ross in person and just talk about literally whatever comes up.
"If you're making a game, you can forget all about this crap"
I'm a game designer and what you're talking about is exactly stuff we're thinking about on a day to day basis.
It's mind boggling that an OS doesn't try to optimize it's GUI experience the same way. Or even web browsers or tools made by multi-billion companies like Adobe. Like why do scrollbars sometimes have the rightmost pixel be unresponsive when you click it? Same for the top bar in some programs where the top pixel doesn't let you click, but 1 pixel lower you can. Why do I have to AIM to click a button when the solution is so simple?
the thing a game can ignore in a UI that a OS can't is familiarity.
Fun fact, the one-pixel dead zone was a thing on Windows' task bar, while Mac's dock and top menu don't have it-so you can jam the cursor in the general direction of the target item and it will still be clickable.
Alas, scrollbars still have the window border to the right of them, which controls window resizing instead-even if the window occupies all available screen area. (IIRC in Windows full-screen windows behave markedly differently from other ones.)
Even a lot of games get this horribly, horribly wrong, too. I'm always impressed when I play a game and the UI is efficient and useful instead of feeling bogged down by using it lol
Most games still have trouble with GUI and few have truly great GUIs. Case in point how in the beginning RTS' had godawful interfaces, but then WC 3, AoE II and Rise of Nation nailed how an interface for that genre should be. However, for the past 15 years or so RTS' GUIs have been on the decline and mostly bad, if not outright trash (yes, I know, SC II was an exception).
Yeah, I was simplifying things for time. My point was I'm not trying to dress down people make one-off programs or stuff for fun and act like they're committing some cardinal sin of a basic GUI when that might not even be the point of their software. This video was intended way more for the operating system and productivity software where people deal with this crap day-in, day-out, maybe their whole career.
I feel like Idiocracy was a missed opportunity. They focused on a eugenics concept (dumb people out breeding smart people), but the concept of Brawndo could have been a point about media manipulation and how even people of average intelligence are susceptible. Like why does Luke Wilson's character know that water is better than a sports drink for plants? A fairly large portion of the population probably never has any direct experience with taking care of plants but they could probably tell you that. Rather than direct experience, they learned this indirectly, probably through education and media.
So a company like Brawndo starts advertising that they're better for plants than water. The first generation to hear this think it's ridiculous, but then an entire generation grows up hearing this. And then everyone who didn't grow up hearing that Brawndo is what plants crave eventually all die. And now it's common knowledge that plants crave Brawndo and this doesn't require overall intelligence of the population to change at all. But I think that media and big businesses don't like the idea of publishing fiction that gives people a greater skepticism of media or the idea of questioning historical narratives.
Anyways, this had almost nothing to do with the video. If this didn't interest you, sorry for making it so long.
Hey, it did interest me at least.
High concept future movies are always missed opportunities.
Yeah, I touched on the concept where I thought this calcified people's way of thinking. I'd like to think we're only 1-2 generations deep still and we're not all doomed yet.
Jim Sterling did a bit that touched on something similar regarding paid content in video games. The idea of paying money for extra cosmetic shit, cheat codes, etc in games used to be ludicrous and laughed at. Then it began showing up in free to play games and was accepted because the game itself was free and the little extra shit was how the company made its money. Younger gamers grew up thinking paying extra for little things was the norm, not remembering a time before where you paid for a game once and that was it. Once those gamers became a significant portion of the audience, companies were free to open the floodgates of charging tons for cosmetics, in-game loot, etc for games that already charged $60 up front.
The companies just have to outlast the memory of people who remember a better time and aren't used to being blatantly exploited.
@@handsomebrick ghost in the shell, ghost in the shell 2
This is a man who is passionate about his desktop
Thank you king. When you mentioned moving mouse hand to keyboard I knew you were the one
Im here for you Ross, Cry on my shoulder. I had some baller stuff back in the XP days. Samurize use to load the weather radar behind a transparent radar image I kept in the upper left part of my screen. Felt amazing to know when it was going to rain.
REMEMBER LITESTEP
Arrest this man! He's responsible for me getting divorced!
Legit brilliant.
The internet's favourite audio tech hoarder! Responsible for thousands of people learning unhealthy spending habits they can't afford, Z Reviews!
That Thumbnail looks like you've just opened a virus and its a video loop of Ross *SCREAMING ABOUT HOW HE **_HAS TO MAKE THE MOVIE_*
I would never fix my computer if I got that virus.
The thumbnail made me think I was watching dancot
[YOUR DATA WILL BE DECRYPTED ONCE T H E M O V I E IS DONE]
wow I totally forgot about "the movie", that will never happen
If danooct1 still did videos on viewer-made malware, I'd love to see him show off something like that.
I gave up fucking with stuff like Litestep a loooooong time ago. I just got tired of working _on_ my computer to make it usable and just decided to _work_ on my computer. Having to move between Windows, Linux, and OSX for a living kind of killed my ability to create a consistent workflow anyway.
I remember malware pretending to be genuine windows settings. I could see why Microsoft considers GUI changes as malware.
These videos with 2007 GUIs are always making me feel /comfy/ and nostalgic, thanks Ross.
"I don't have a home row, I'm keyboard homeless."
I'm stealing that
I mastered hunt-and-peck at a very young age, then learned enough home-row style to type words really fast but everything else including capitalization I either struggle with or outright lapse, so I'm like a keyboard homeless person with a shabby hovel.
I learned typing on a CP/M computer with round keys that had sharp edges! ...'I don't even know what a homerow IS, I grew up on a keyboard-minefield!"
@@handsomebrick i was taught to type around the age of 5 and they did the standard home row stuff, FJ index fingers, etc.
somewhere down the line i just transitioned into the freehand typing method, most of it is index finger based.
i tried doing colemak layout to force myself to homerow but i ended up freehanding it and now i use 2 keyboard layouts bc im a freak
@MomoTheBellyDancer Thank you, but awesome beard still has the same color. .....aaaand in a soclialist country, we were like 20 years behind. (:
@@handsomebrick There was a period in my life that for some reason I would capitalize the first letter of every single word so now capitalization is pretty baked into my head. Sometimes I will randomly capitalize other words still for seemingly no reason.
Your point about flat themes causing slower productivity perfectly explains why I hate them so much. You may not like Windows 7's glossy look but I got so much more done on that OS compared to Windows 10 because of it
You know what I want from my Windows experience?
I want the settings to be in the same place when I leave the computer at night, and then I come back the next morning...
same
80 minutes of Ross rambling about computers. Yes, this is good.
There is one main reason for all this restriction: uniformity. Have you ever noticed that almost all platforms (UA-cam,Twitter, Instagram,etc) seem to have very similar design philosophies? That’s because they are all trying to make their platforms uniform. They all stick with simple solid colors and they often have both black and white options.
From what I remember: companies do this to give users a sense of familiarity and standardization. The reason the GUI is so bland and devoid of customization is because they want you (the consumer) to easily slide into a familiar pattern.
I could be wrong but from my knowledge: that is why the GUI looks like this.
And then you try to use similar software and each of them have their very own menu options and keyboard shortcuts, creating more entropy.
And the different companies all do this together as a sort of scumbag corporate Categorical Imperative: design in such a way that you'd hope your competitor would, to maximize profits. In this case, no one wants to have to spend money creating customization options, so they train the public to accept bland GUIs. That way, they never have to deviate or create customization tools. Or have users who bitch at them for not having any.
@@Bluecho4 This explains so much and confirms some of my suspicions I have had over the years with the semi yearly simplification of web UI with the mobile first philosophy. At this point I have grown numb to thr fact that this will apply to every website sooner or later, or the vast majority that I don't even flinch all that much when yet another feature I value is curtailed in favor of streamlining it down to the bare bones essentials. It still smarts, but this is judt the way of the future, and it will only get worse from here with time.
I can only imagine how the current present will look like some power user utopia compared to what will come down the line. It is depressing, but such is life.
@@Bluecho4 Not only are the websites themselves becoming blander but remember when you actually surfed the web and visited many different websites while doing so? Nowadays you just visit the same 10-or-so websites that the web happens to revolve around (all of which are owned by large corporations), while the rest of the web is just a desolate wasteland. :(
Is that why Twitter is pushing their new god awful UI? Even deliberately breaking addons designed to delivery old twitter.
Thanks Ross, this has given me some ideas for a UI/UX Masters thesis. There was a lot of thought put into this video, and I may just have to email you if this is the topic I choose. You'd be a perfect tester.
8:21
Snoopy popping in and going "Blaaaaahhh" genuinely surprised me and was a delight.
The main problem with GUI is that it's mostly made by incompetent people with Dunning-Kruger syndrome. I've seen this so much in development - nobody really wants to measure if a redesign is successful. GUI designers are extremely detached from reality, they're almost like in some niche contemporary art at this point. So when they're talking about usability, it's probably some abstract idea from the latest convention they visited and don't know if their interface is actually usable.
This isn't true for all the software, but it's really common in both large and small companies.
Where to begin? I feel like i should have taken notes. First of all, *THANK YOU*. I noticed the custom window theme you run in some of your other videos so I was kinda expecting a video on that, and this did not disappoint. I wanted to make a video on this topic one day, but I'm no UA-camr, and you did it so well. So, in no particular order:
-This is the most serious and impassioned GUI critique that I have seen in a decade, and we need more of that. Also the first one I've seen of this caliber from someone who's not a GUI researcher, but a power user. Not that there are (m)any GUI researchers these days.
-Your desktop looks super optimized for you. Don't know why people are saying it's ugly. I will say that I prefer having desktop icons to not having them.
Also great taste in wallpapers.
-Surprised you didn't mention names of some of the concepts you showed, like Fitts's Law or Pie Menus.
-Desktop GUIs have been in crisis ever since the release of the iPhone (in 2007) and later the iPad (which turned out to be a failure, in retrospect). Remember how everyone was heralding the death of the desktop PC? Yeah... that didn't happen but we got stuck with the GUI of Vista. Except the time Microsoft tried to bulldoze over that and make the desktop the same as mobile.
-In the Golden Age of GUI development in the 90s, most users were, by today's standard, power users. Now we are a minority compared to the average Joe. Not that our numbers have decreased, but a lot of us have gone to Linux and Linux has its own problems. The average Joe doesn't like change even when it's good, and Microsoft doesn't want to take risks. So "good enough" always prevails, and the GUI researchers end up out of work. Also, and I think this is crucial, Microsoft is too big and earns too much money elsewhere to even care about Windows now.
-A lot of people on the Linux side are really obsessed with command lines and intentionally basic and limited window managers. Like you, I consider this a capitulation to the fact that our GUIs kinda suck. Also elitism and lack of imagination. Regarding real Linux desktop environments, the decentralized open source approach needs a certain critical mass to work, and they don't really have it. Most Linux DE projects struggle to even fix bugs and all are objectively worse than Windows in some way, especially the big one (Gnome 3) which is extremely polished but just designed wrong.
Despite all that, the future is obviously with Linux.
-Regarding looks: those are some fine picks you selected (BeOS, mid-2000s Linux) for a nice, sane default. BeOS even had some nice and intuitive ideas, such as windows you can grab by the title bar and group together into one tabbed window. But back to looks, I personally enjoy the blocky, 90s look from the pre-XP era, so I like what the guys over at SerenityOS are doing. (it's a small custom OS project focused on a classic-style GUI).
-Copy and Paste being a huge pain: it's the Web that's the problem. Websites have steadily been becoming worse for the past decade in almost every way. Most of all they have gotten slower, and this is because of a tendency towards programming fads, an overuse of JavaScript and visual effects. But worst of all is how Google is taking over the Web with Chrome and becoming the new Internet Explorer. They are churning out new web APIs that they are basically forcing to become standards because of their monopolies on search, email and video. These are basically the new ActiveX or Flash and are shutting down independent browser developers who can't keep up. Look up Google Web Components and Shadow DOM.
-edited to add: almost forgot to thank you for going against the grain on the topic of dark themes and contrast. Dark themes are memes. A well designed theme where body text is mostly black on white and the surrounding GUI is more subdued is how it's supposed to be. But customization should be allowed, and accounted for.
-Thank you for still maintaining a forum in this day an age of one-size-fits-all Reddit and other corporate websites where you are not a user, but a product.
Wow, thanks. Regarding the "didn't mention the names", I really wasn't kidding about not being an expert. I've seen radial menus before, but I can't consciously recall running across the design I laid out there. It was me inventing a telephone that was already invented. Anyway, hope this all leads to something good!
Since Ross mentioned how awkward it is to precision click on window borders to manipulate them: The default for moving a window in KDE is ALT+LMB(drag). Resize is ALT+RMB(drag). That is super handy. It also has intelligent placement for new windows and snapping to edges and other windows.
I've been saying for a while we're in the GUI dark ages, 15 years ago or so we had this progression towards style over ergonomics and it's a nightmare.
Hey Ross, what you are describing is called a "pizza menu". On the terminal, it may not be the easiest to use, but all things considered, it is by far the PUREST form of UI. It is the most consistent thing we have as of today, which is to say in some ways we have not evolved with the introduction of the GUI.
Fun Fact: The reason editing the GUI is treated like a virus is because the #1 target of virus software is the GUI. I guess treating it like a virus was Microsoft's work around for antivirus baked into the operating system functions.
As for why GUI isn't more efficient, I think it's the rule you dropped off your list. Easy to understand. Old people really don't understand gestures or menus. Frequently, if the desktop icon for a program changes but the name of the program is still right there on the screen under the new icon, they'll tell you that their icon is gone. Even if it's in the same spot on the desktop as the old icon....
People don't read. Never forget that.
You'd have a point, except Windows 8 exists. They didn't give a flying crap if grandma got confused by that. You're giving them way too much credit.
@@Accursed_Farms He's completely right about the virus thing, though. Windows micromanages its GUI elements to make sure it's not tampered with.
Also If they introduce a new experimental GUI they'll absolutely have a setting where you can revert back to the old GUI style cause of... human backwards compatibility? Until they're certain the new GUI has taken a foothold.
@@Accursed_Farms Same way as you didn't mention Vista, 8 shouldn't have existed in the first place, in 10 there's tons of gestures and obscure shit to go quicker, the quickbar you can call using windows key + 1-9 (I use that all the time)
@@Accursed_Farms And Windows 8 failed because people aren't used to it. The problem we have now is that people are too stuck in their ways and any changes no matter how minor will upset a lot of people.
That's why they shouldn't care, if people wanna get into it, it should be welcoming, like a game that has deep mechanics but introduces them to you in a manageable way so once you understand them you can use them as if you always understood them.
If people say "I should know how to use it, the thing said it was gonna do the thing for me", forget about them, they don't want a workplace, they want a servant who they command
All this frustration you feel is experienced tenfold by young programmers. This warps their minds and fills them with vicious resentment towards all sapient life.
In their later years, what they create reflects the darkness in their hearts. The cycle of torment continues.
In another 20 years, we'll be solving LeMarchand configurations to log in.
This comment makes the video worth it for me. It's good to know I'm not the only one suffering here.
Young programmers? If anything I would think young people are more used to the way things are today. While older users remember how things used to be.
your multiplicity of time reference:
THIS VIDEO HAS ACCUMULATED 19.67 YEARS OF WATCHTIME.
Thank your parents for us, because you are an absolute gift to mankind.
Defensive Ross: "I'm only half crazy!!"
Yeah well I just sat there and listened to this whole crazy rant so I guess we're all at least half crazy
About people optimising their characters in role-playing games: have you seen how extremely customised people's MMORPG configurations are, with macro icons of varying sizes in different parts of the screen, completely rebound hotkeys, etc? Imagine if Windows gave you that flexibility for the shell components. Apparently MMORPG developers trust gamers to make their own GUI, but OS developers don't trust ordinary computer users.
KDE Plasma.
In all fairness, the average user is still likely to be borderline illiterate when it comes to the finer intricacies of software management
@@Blackmagegalayis That shouldn't be a reason to preven EVERYBODY from making something better for themselves.
It took a while for the GUI of modern MMOs to advance to current day customization. A lot of that was modded before. So I don't really think developers "trust" their gamers; it's more like they saw a large demand for a feature via mod downloads and decided that incorporating that into the game would help them keep subscribers.
@@svendays You ever play World Of Warcraft? That's game's probably older than you and it always let you customize the UI
Oh, speaking of the resize part: a lot of Linux desktop environments have a function where you can hold a key (usually Alt, but sometimes the Windows logo key) and move or resize window by grabbing any part of it (or anywhere close to a corner), not just the titlebar or the corner.
"You either update or go to hell." OMG thanks for the genuine LOL moment.
As someone who doesn't mind the default Windows GUI, I think it's proof of just how good you are as a presenter of this information that you got me so interested that I watched the entire video. Thanks!
!ye!
It will never stop... This is your life now... An unyelding cacophony of
!ye!
I swear, you always seem to pop up in the places I least expect. Sub officially earned, cuz Ross rules mate.
For Microsoft and the place where most purchases for their OS comes, not changing the UI is not a downside, but a FEATURE. Their main audience really is enterprise. So that ABSOLUTELY means cratering to the "old people"/people set in their ways. With Microsoft it's all about backwards compatibility. They are taking BIG FLAK still for arguably necessary changes in OS arhitecture with Win 10 and like and you are probably familiar how the new GUI was welcomed. Most users do NOT want to change how they do things, even if the alternative could make them hundred times faster. And this goes DOUBLE for people who aren't computer enthusiasts. So pretty much FORGET Microsoft will be changing anything about the interface other than trying to merge it with how touchscreen devices work partially to boost their attempts to go mobile, partially because most people these days are much more familiar with their phone GUI than Windows GUI.
Now locking GUI and treating any change as a virus, I can kinda see why from security purposes you might want to do that. You don't want that just by installing some software some software can take over and mimic the functions of the Windows itself, even though that still happens.
Other than that I can't see why'd they'd be so stubborn about preventing you from changing some things... Well some of those things might be features of higher versions of Windows so that might be it too.
Yet using win10 is ridiculous. No way old people can use it
@@drifter402 What? are you suggesting that old people are capable of in depth usage of linux or android?
Grow yourself a new brain sir. Surface-level usage of windows 10 for checking emails, internet browsing, opening programs etc
is self-explanatory just as it is for MacOS and other operating systems with a good GUI.
Another reverse evolution is that you now have to hover over the scrollbar for a moment before you can drag it. It drives me mental.
Edit: also, the scroll bars nowadays are tiny!
man all of these old screenshots are super comfy and aesthetic
"Why does the GUI have to be so damn deep in the code to begin with?"
Well, that's because the GUI code is a part of the Windows kernel itself. MS hasn't made a command line only OS since DOS. The GUI is a core component of Windows and it's buried deep in the belly of the beast. That means that any update that affects the system can affect the GUI as a side effect. If you want to customize the GUI in an advanced manner, switch to Linux. In Linux distros, the GUI is a separate component that sits outside the kernel.
Big WARNING though: the fact that the Windows GUI sits deep inside the OS limits the customization options but also makes it resilient. I've encountered a very severe bug in Linux distros related to the display driver. Since the GUI is an external component a severe crash of the graphics driver can take down the ENTIRE GUI leaving you with only the terminal to work with. If that happens in Windows, the worst case scenario is a blue screen and a restart into safe mode in order to manually uninstall the faulty driver.
Windows is retarded, I agree but there's no simple solution to your problem even if MS gave a damn.
how on earth is a catastrophic kernel panic that forces you to reboot MORE resilient than the gui component failing on its own and still leaving the system running?
@@lilypadsy Because you can recover from it more easily. A PC doesn't have to run 24/7 like a server. Reboot in safe mode if you need to. You don't have to reinstall Windows if a GPU driver crashes. In Linux, the crash can be so bad it's unrecoverable and it forces you to reinstall the entire OS. Sometimes you can reinstall the GUI from the command line, but it's not guaranteed.
Sure the system still technically runs but turning your PC into a Fallout terminal makes it pretty much unusable. Even hardcore Linux fans don't larp on a single command line with absolutely nothing else.
This didn't use to be the case --- in classic Windows NT the graphics drivers were completely seperated from the kernel and lived in user space. It ended up being super reliable. If the graphics driver crashed it could be cleanly restarted without affecting the apps and nobody cared. IIRC the drivers got moved the to the kernel in XP (or 2000?) for performance reasons when running games.
@@hjalfi If I recall correctly, It's the other way around, drivers were drastically changed in Windows Vista to allow running in user mode or something like that, that's one of the reasons why Vista was kind of problematic to use since drivers needed to be rewritten, so as a result for graphics drivers, they're able to be rebooted and whatnot if they were to crash or manually triggered to do so by pressing "Ctrl+Shift+Win/Super+B", though Windows will force a bluescreen if the graphics driver doesn't respond in time.
@@WandererOfWorlds0 e uh what kind of crash would make you have to reinstall the whole os let alone the gui?
I love these types of videos. It's like you're eating lunch at Black Mesa and Freeman is ranting to you about something for hours on end. Or it's like you're talking to Ross, I assume this is how he talks to people in real life too.
Same with Game Dungeon, but Gordon brings in a game to Black Mesa and showcases the game and then tells everyone about it's highlights during the lunchtime.
@@nicefloweytheoverseer7632 Lunch time? No this is right in the middle of work, with supervisors watching. But nobody can stop freeman.
Maybe the real dungeon was the user interface all along.
What I love about Ross's videos (YOUR videos, if Ross is the one reading this) is that like... Either he's making Freeman's Mind, or Game Dungeon, OR he's making a video that is literally just "What information do I think needs to get out into the world?" Like I get the impression his main goal isn't to entertain, but to inform in these sort of videos and yet... its still entertaining. And I respect that.
This is so bizarre to watch... I've literally never thought like this. I've always thought the ideal time optimization comes from learning hotkeys and minimizing gui interactions, but Ross has gone the opposite direction, realizing how far we as a species are from GUI Nirvana.
When a particular pattern of living is so entrenched and pervasive, conceiving of a world that is different can become nigh impossible. It's why Capitalists can't imagine a world without Capitalism, for instance.
In this case, thanks to Microsoft's monopoly (and Apple's willingness to follow most GUI design ideas Microsoft puts out), GUI design is not only stagnant, but deviating from it doesn't even enter the minds of most people. The problems of modern GUIs are simply taken as immutable laws of computing, to be tolerated and adapted to rather than fixed.
@@Bluecho4 Or maybe there's a design language that has evolved that everyone now speaks and deviating from it would mean that potential users (who are already familiar with the GUIs from other pieces of software) would be irritated if it was suddenly different and they had to re-learn how to use a GUI just because it's different.
It's the reason why we see more innovation in coding editors for example, where users are passionate about using the software and are reading to invest the time it takes to learn in order to be more productive in the long run than in software meant for the casual user who just wants to get his job done and move on.
I have to wonder if he's really saved more time than he's spent trying to get a perfect time saving system.
@@Bluecho4 dirty commie
@@wind2536 based
The ball idea sort of reminds me of the menu used to select voice lines in Left 4 Dead 2. Let me describe it. You hold z or x and an 8-way menu appears. You then let go to select the central voice line or drag the mouse in one of the 8 directions (up/down/left/right/top-left/top-right/down-left/down-right) and your character will say the line. Once you remember what voice line is in what location it takes a fraction of a second to select the correct one flawlessly. It's super fast and super difficult to screw up and select the wrong choice. This system could be a good way to launch programs.
Yeah that's the kind of gesturing that works. several wii games used stuff like that.
Same is used in Dota2, it's so incredibly intuitive and fast you'd wonder why it's not common elsehwee
Yeah, I remember spamming the "negative" voice command over and over in csgo with the same system. Best part was, it was inescapable. They would play even if everyone tried to mute you.
This is how Maya interface for main tools work, really handy just to flick a mouse.
One thing that could be used to expand this menu type to open more programs is something like warframes infinite wheel menu, you push the mouse in a circle to scroll it, making it spiral toward different menu icons
Your right click idea is how a lot of the UI in Maya works
We need a video called Ross's Big Software List.
Hey, that thing about collecting data to make the best interface... Microsoft did it. For Windows 95. It's why that interface has held up so well over the years and previous iterations have disappeared - it is actually based on user studies. You know how Microsoft designs UI now? Managers with powerpoint.
P.S. and about Linux... I'm what you would call a professional Linux user. I write software on Linux for Linux. There are 2 major desktops - KDE and Gnome [1]. KDE has been getting slightly less customisable with time, but not much, and you can still change it a lot. Gnome however... They are going for some hybrid OSX/Windows 10 look, which they swear is mathematically proven to perfectly fit the average spherical grandma in a vacuum, and have publically stated that any deviation from their sacred holy vision is heresy and will not be supported. No customisability for you. At one point they removed the maximize and minimize window buttons for some reason (though I think they reversed that decision). At one point I saw a thread about them struggling to properly support large font sizes and high contrast for people with vision problems (something we solved 20 years ago with theming, which they decided is heresy). I might be off-base, I just can't be arsed to keep up with Gnome. I feel like KDE is the one sane mainstream option. At least on linux the beauty is that there is a standard and you can choose your desktop implementation, including ones that do any kind of weird behaviour. As for me, I just use text interfaces as much as possible. Yeah, I *want* a good GUI, but I've lost all hope at this point. The 50-year-old commandline is just as functional and customisable as ever and nobody is coming for it.
[1] Oh and a side note. If you thought Microsoft is bad now with stifling GUI innovation, oh boy wait until you hear about commercial Unix vendors in the 90s (Linux largely inherited the Unix GUI). There was a single standard, called CDE for Common Desktop Environment and it was ... not beautiful by many measures, but it was functional. But we couldn't have it on Linux because you can't implement it without running into patent and licensing issues and nobody is gonna pay 1000$ in patent fees for their Linux desktop. So off we go to reimplement all the desktop and fracture everything because of even MORE licensing issues. Asshats. You can watch this if you're interested: ua-cam.com/video/cj02_UeUnGQ/v-deo.html
There's also XFCE. It's not major, but pretty functional, sane and have customizability.
@@redbird1f873 That's gnome. Cinnamon is gnome, MATE is gnome, and XFCE is gnome. Like how Vivaldi and Microsoft Edge are both Chrome.
KingHalbatorix xfce is opposite of gnome
@@KingHalbatorix Nono. Most desktop environments have some components from both KDE and GNOME (like the configuration handling, or a text editor, or this or that), but have a completely different setup.
Nonetheless, your argument is invalid already. Vivaldi and Edge both use Chromium, and Chrome uses Chromium, but Chromium is merely the GUI backend. The JS engine (Chrome uses V8) is a huge factor too when it comes to user experience (performance and whatnot).
You can't judge software solely by its backend. That'd be like judging a book by... the material its binding was made of, I suppose.
What I've been doing lately is installing a distro with nothing but the command line and installing my own window manager. Fluxbox is awesome, and I don't have to worry about anything to do with Gnome in Fluxbox.
I guess it's not for everyone, though.
Thank god I'm not the only one with that copy/paste problem.
I've grown so paranoid that I use CUT instead so I can see the text disappear /icon change so I can know FOR SURE the data is on the clipboard.
What I do is hold down ctrl and just spam the ever living shit out of C
Mac user here (gave up on Windows after ME). This also happens in OS and on iPhone at about the same rate. CTRL+C fails are so pervasive across platforms that I believe it’s deliberate, and either the machines or their creators are laughing at our frustration.
@@christophermorlock from my experience, it is not fault of copy/paste, but whoever was making the page. It's like you can't just paste in password into "repeat password" field.
Also many of these work with middle click on Linux (it copies selected text and inserts text on cursor location, without text going through exchange buffer)
@@wumi2419 is right, this is most of the times javascript on the page deliberately blocking you from copying, some news pages also employ a "for more information access: site.com". The worst offender in my opinion is google forcing you to install an extension to be able to copy and paste on their web office solutions, closing the extension prompt most of the time makes ctrl+c work again, which makes it even shadier.
I want features to be baked into vanilla Windows so I can actually use them on a Admin locked work laptop.
It's damn annoying to find and get used to a tool at home that I can't use at work.
47:14 That's something classic Mac OS did correctly: the close button was on the left, the other buttons were on the right. So you wouldn't click close accidentally by aiming a few pixels wrong.
Sometimes I wish computer hardware development would plateau so we could stop chasing more power and just refine the way we use it.
I agree, it seems the more computers "Evolve" the more finicky and unreliable things get. I know you're talking about interface for the most part but I'm talking about just plain stability. Windows xp may have been ugly but at least it friggin' worked! With 10 it seems like there's always something not working the way it should.
I feel the same way about the video game industry.
its pretty much happend. since coding something the "right" can be immensly more performant than just going YOLO with their code. but people like to YOLO with their code :D
I've had this *exact* thought for about the last 6 years.
I frequently wish that for video games (content over graphics, not necessarily over hardware). It's of the reasons Ross convinced me to look more into ancient games I never would otherwise.
As someone who grew up with normal windows and knows it like the back of my hand, seeing Ross's setup is like living in cave all my life and being dragged into the Las Vegas strip and seeing all the lights at night for the first time. I didn't know Windows was that customizable.
Also I disagree on the "GUIs shouldn't be easy to understand" point. Just because it's beginner friendly doesn't mean it can't have a high efficiency ceiling. Look at a screenshot of Aurora 4X and you'll see where I'm coming from. Or watch "Crappy User Interfaces" by NakeyJakey if you want to know why the most important part of UI is, you know, being able to actually use it.
Spoiler: It's not. It *used to be.*
@@scorinth I think he/she means with an alt GUI.
Funny thing is, I think Windows GUI is a decent way more customizable than Ross found since I've really messed with my version a while back. Can't confirm the extent/my memory since I've been waiting for a garbage company to finish my faulty motherboard replacement for 2.5 months.
That is an excellent metaphor and it really gets across the feelings of inadequacy I'm feeling now.
I'm actually amazed by this video. I paid so much closer attention and learned way more than I expected. It was worth the watch for some of the minor tweaks and mouse gestures alone. Thanks Ross!
"Focus follows mouse" is probably the GUI feature on Linux LXQT that saved most of my lifetime. Oh, and the ability to set a window to be always on top. All these years and Windows couldn't implement simple stuff like that.. No wonder mouse gestures, etc are not implemented.
You know, like many of us, I started out watching Ross for Freeman's Mind, and I still love it.
Having said that, I also kind of want him to make these rant videos forever because Ross can think outside of the box so well that every topic he discusses just opens you up to completely new ways of looking at things. This also refers to the age of the games he plays, not caring about when they came out, as an example. Not many UA-cam creators would even have that as a possibility. Voicing his inner thoughts gives us a little window into that mad genius brain of his.
Thanks, I definitely felt more mad making this one. I really don't think I said one word of genius in this video, it's more like I'm wearing a pair of those glasses in They Live and am seeing things nobody else seems to.
@@Accursed_Farms Right, also a good metaphor. Well Ross, you're waking more people up to your vision with every video like this. At least about the specific topics you talk about, which is more than a lot of people can say. You're one of my favorite content creators, keep it up!
Oh, and don't worry about he topic. I feel that you could make a video interesting if it was just you discussing wallpaper textures.
@@Accursed_Farms You and everyone else agreeing with you isn't mad Ross, everyone else is. The world is crazy.
"The level of customization in Windows is PATHETIC!" This should be shouted out in the streets until someone at MS realizes.
That old adage about leading a horse to water comes to mind.
I have to use a Windows machine at work. It's the first one I've used in like five years. Windows 10 is a nightmare and I hate it.
They know though. It's all locked on purpose.
@@SPTX. you can't datamine your users if their GUI all look completely different
The keyboard speed on Dvorak is a myth comes from a study made by August Dvorak to sell his dumb keyboard to the army.
After a long time of watching this GUI video Ross, I figured out something. In addition to fixing the GUI into making it far more efficient, we can make both the classic and the more efficient GUI, two switchable GUI modes. Because I know there are indeed people that like the classic GUI and would be so used to it. Do you think this would sound more ideal? Otherwise changing the GUI is sort of like disrespecting a country's culture and their fondness of it. I would say it'll be best to also take the GUI mode idea and give the PC users more of a chance to see which is better in their book. Do you think this would result in a scenario where everybody wins?
Isn't "this was supposed to be a short video but it has escalated and is now an existential crisis" basically what this channel is all about, though?
Having an entire legal campaign about end-of-life plans for online-only games is just one of the projects he is worked on, so I would agree. I do genuinely appreciate him utilising his fanbase by making great videos about subjects that maybe only a small proportion of the audience truly cares about.
Ekke Tuuling
Small proportion rounding out to over 5,000 people...
But yeah.
"windows is ugly" *gui he runs makes me want to set myself on fire* I mean you're not wrong but you're right for the wrong reasons and it makes me feel bad
My eyes... they burn
For real tho, I guess Ross is one of _those_ people
@@JeBubbieSpubbies not to take away from your comment too much, but there's a huge [CITATION NEEDED] on DVORAK being an "objectively" better layout backed by "study after study". I've only heard of a few studies, and those that suggested any kind of benefit were also biased in a way that makes them pretty worthless. So show the evidence if you got it.
@@JeBubbieSpubbies He was commenting on the look and Ross Interface pretty much is objectively really ugly.
@@JeBubbieSpubbies "objectively easier to use"
*looks at config*
*looks at camera*
You should have a look at Plan 9.
It's from 30 years ago - and yet very innovative by combining the command line and GUI.
Windows 95 was VERY customizable. I remember a friend of mine got it in his dad's computer, and it had "themes" that changed completely how the OS look like. I remember being impressed by such level of customizability. Also, 98 and XP had those. I moded my Windows XP to loo and sound like a Mech, using Mechwarrior 3 sounds. All that was lost in Win10, or at least, I can't figure out how to tweak it so much.