Truly tragic story. I'm a Kc-135 crew chief over here in Washington, this crew was assigned to my base... A couple of my Sergents and a Lieutenant of mine were part of the crash recovery crew assigned to that incident too. Definitely hits close to home. RIP Shell 77.
I was a crew chief at your very location for 11 years. I remember receiving the news of this tragic event. Weeks before I had just helped Capt Voss work on his personal experimental plane. This tragedy reinforced why us maintainers maintain such a high standard of professionalism.
@@nola3864 Hell yeah lol. The base itself can be very boring. However Spokane and the greater Spokane area is absolutely AMAZING, find time to get off base and explore. You won't be sorry.
I'm a retired USAF KC-135R pilot. I faced this exact situation returning from the Gulf in 1992. This condition is an annoyance but not something that should cause the loss of a crew. Tragic.
This is a repost correct? I watched your old video a couple years ago and have an Interesting story for you. I watched this video the night before I flew a mission in the desert. The next day we had 8 degrees of uncommanded rudder at 315kts, FL250 with an F-15 roughly 20ft from the boom. It went on even with opposite rudder input until this video flashed in my mind and I switched off the upper yaw damp channels. The F-15 pilot said “looks like you guys are movin’ around a lot up there” and backed off. Scary moment! Granted we didn’t have the same Dutch roll conditions as this crew, more of a sudden and large rudder movement, but your video may have saved us lol so thank you!
@@PapaG603 there’s no checklist for that type of malfunction in the flight manual. As a flight engineer, we rely on our systems knowledge to handle things that are not in an abnormal checklist.
@@_____Justin______ so would they even be able to send fuel with such unsteady control? As i was watching this when The Capt noticed pretty early I was wondering why even continue..Is the pressure to complete the mission that overwhelming?
I flew 135s out of Manas a couple years before this happened. Rudder issues were always something I was cautious of and quite frankly scared of. We would sometimes practice un-commanded hard over rudder in the sim and you would be upside down in a matter of seconds without taking the proper action.
Interesting point to note too, they actually avoid mentioning "hard over rudder" in training now. They want us to just kick the rudder power off before trying to figure out what the specific rudder malfunction might have been
TheDude QUOTE " Rudder issues were always something I was cautious of and quite frankly scared of" And rightly so -- rudder hard-over is a very precarious situation to be in and fraught with danger. not easy to maneuver out of and very little time to correct particularly at low and medium altitude. The tail section and rudder are the weakest sections of an aircraft and subject to extreme forces. A difficult situation to get out of a high risk of total failure of the integrity of the aircraft - which is not survivable.
The USAF should be better on servicing & repairs & come to that pilots, the B52 mad pilot was making people refuse to fly with him & yet they don't ground him & his luck runs out & for a crew who went with him - why guys? Ordered but I'd rather do jankers.
There's a big UA-cam connection here. Captain Mark Tyler Voss was friends with Matt Carriker from Demolition Ranch and Off The Ranch. In fact a Ford Bronco that Cap. Voss owned is being rebuilt by Matt in honor of him, if anyone's interested. Thanks for showing this. Love the channel.
What I really don't understand is why the pilots continued their mission after recognizing the yaw hunting. In that unstable flight condition they would never be able to refuel an aircraft, right?
They didn't have time to discuss "continuing the mission" as they were trying to figure out what was wrong. They only got to step 5 of their emergency checklist (step 16 was to disengage the SYD) before the plane broke up. However, presuming they completed the checklist in time and gained control over the aircraft again, they certainly would have RTB and scrubbed the mission.
@@ChristopherNips81 I'm sure they noted the fact that the pilot said he was turning SYD off when in fact he only turned off AP though. If the copilot wasn't watching I'm sure that would have led to more confusion as she thought the system was turned off.
3 months ago this video came out. Air Force Hercules that crashed. ua-cam.com/video/197IxHaH34s/v-deo.html And this is the text that I wrote then. Ok I watched this clip several times now and either I miss something or I'm to stupid. The flight crew failed to run over the emergency checklist before take off. They failed to realise that the airplane has some major issues engine nr 1. They didn't abort the take off. They didn't go over the checklist after take off. Failed with the procedure like checking the flaps and so on flew the aircraft against every emergency procedure written in the checklist. Altogether a chain of events that at the end ended in a stall and crashing in to the ground. With the result of killing everyone on board. But what I don't understand is the behavior of the crew. What i miss here ( and no this is not a bashing of this channel and this clip) what experience did this crew have. What was the dynamic in the cockpit. Why did all the emergency procedures failed that they the crew should known?. It's really easy to say the pilot was a idiot. But the several minutes from power up take off till the crash i don't understand the behavior of the crew. I really miss something here. Was it the rang structure that made the submissiv behavior of the copilot and the other on the flight deck possible?. Did they flew other models so they assumed that this 130 would behave like the other one. Was it inexperience. I don't get it. And now we have this Kc 135 crash. But what really made me think was that it's the same kind of failure in processing the flight manual. 2 different aircraft 2 different causes of the resulting crash yet both crew's didn't read the flight manual or failed to realise the something is wrong. Maybe I'm way off but either the air force has a major problem with teaching the new Pilot's or there is a major issue with how to read the flight manual or the emergency check list. And no i don't bash both crew's. It's not my intention to be mean or anything like that but it's like oh shit here we go again.
The detailed, professional and respectful presentation is by far the best that I have seen on You Tube. I am an Air Force Veteran, and having worked with flight crew members via medical support, and recovery of Airmen who lost their lives while serving their country, the respectful manner on the production of this series/program is truly appreciated. I have yet to be a patron of any other programs, but, I will donate to this channel. Impressive and accurate reporting. Thank you.
I grew up on McConnell AFB and my Dad worked on these planes. Feels very close to home, this tragedy. I've followed this channel for quite a while, and this is for sure one of the best done yet. And, thank you for your service!
The onscreen text should be in the color black in most of these videos. He uses white text on a white sky resulting in difficulty to read. In other words, the production is great but it can be improved.
Christian Breuer. Roger that. I was lucky enough to be trained by ex-WWII guys, who literally knocked that into you from Day One. Had a few similar scares in a long career, but their training always saved my neck ...
This is like that crash in New York where the pilot was using excessive rudder inputs after passing through wake turbulence. It seems so shocking that by simply misusing some controls in the cockpit the tail can actually be sheared off.
Yes, that was N14053. American Airlines Flight 587. Poor standard of pilot training at AA, that was what he was taught to do. Little did he realise, HE was causing the condition.
Sadly this aircraft was very old and loaded with fuel, so it was quite heavy. Also we underestimate exactly how strong winds are when aircraft fly. There’s more pressure and stress on the frame than we think.
They were definitely also the best looking guys and the female I have seen on this channel. I am sure they were very smart as the Airforce doesn't play. Such a terrible loss
@@stretcherbearer1350 Not at all. They certainly would have RTB *after* they regained control of the aircraft. I flew special ops for the USAF and they beat into our heads, YOU are in control of the aircraft, not anyone else. There are zero repercussions if you don't feel the aircraft or crew is capable of completing a mission safely. The military learned those lessons the hard way too many times.
@@halleffect1 you can't see it because you don't understand the physics involved, hold a pencil and bend it sideways back and forth and imagine that happening in four different directions, the stress being put on the airframe during the Dutch roll condition it is like bending four different parts of the airplane in four different directions and these aircraft just aren't designed for that kind of stress load, the forces involved are incredible and not necessarily going to be very visible to the naked eye, these pilots should have known better especially the captain to be screwing around with the rudder in this situation.
@@badmonkey2222 - It doesn't have to be violent to be catastrophic. Every part has it's stress limits. It was just flexing until the moment it reached it's failure point.
When I first started watching these a few years ago, I though he was pinching them from a TV channel (there are lots that do) so props to his amazing dedication!
Feel so sad as realizing that these Airmen were so young. Way too young. Only in their twentieth and early thirtieth. I know accident happens. Yet to see these young lives taken away so soon, it's nothing less than a tragedy. RIP the crew of this KC 135.
In my days it took a lot of flight hours to move up to aircraft commander!! But before I retired they lowered the number of hours to upgrade. It was a mistake and still is!! As a boom operator I knew the aircraft better than the pilots. I instructed the pilots in all systems for years. I was a hydraulic specialist for 12 years before I switched to be a boom operator. But that was when SAC WAS THE KING. Sorry to see it disbanded. Now you know how old I am???
@@Capecodham That’s correct. It’s now called combat air command.They closed a lot of bases and put the different airplanes on the same bases. They don’t remember Pearl Harbor where they had all the planes, ships in the same place. What happened the Japanese destroyed a lot because of that stupid mistake. SAC , stratigic air command, was they spread the planes to many different places across the United States. That way the enemies couldn’t knock all of the bombers and tankers out with one blow. Thinking of saving money by not having many different Bases. “History forgotten will be repeated” The Us government has one job!! That’s to defend the United States of America collectively. But now they are in everybody’s business!!! The states should be running their own agenda without government interference!! Just think of the money the government spends on things other than just defending our freedom. The people paying out the nose in taxes to send to our enemies!! China said they would take America without firing a shot!! Well it’s happening now in front of our eyes!!! We buy their junk and others from around the world??? Why, we could bring all those jobs back, and be the best in the world. Not now America is sinking fast!! I long for the people to be the best in the world!!
Sounds to me like it can only refer to pilot and copilot. Copilot didn't have the same level of experience and the Boom Operator had the most but he had no control over this.
I remember an A300 Airbus was lost after inappropriate rudder input flying through turbulence at low altitude during departure. We all had extra mentoring on the correct use of rubber in large transport aircraft. Basically they are foot rests once safely airborne unless there is engine failure then use gently to correct the flight path.
What do you mean quality? He totally omitted the fact that the plane malfunctioned. What caused the malfunction? That was the true root cause of this accident. But it easy to blame the pilots not following emergency procedures correctly. I was in the Navy. Pilots don't get many breaks. Were they tired? Were they stressed from heavy work load? What broke on the airplane? I was an aviation electrician so I know systems fail all the time. What breakers popped and on what systems? Don't pat the presenter on the back for this one.
They were from Fairchild AFB in Spokane, Washington and were amazing people, talked flight crew and loved what they did. They are cherished and missed.
I was apart of the recovery team. I found TSgt Tre Mackey III. RIP Shell 77. And Tre, I may have never met you, but I’m so happy I was able to get you back home.
Thankful my daughter was not on there 25 years with the Air Force. So very sorry to their parents and family's for the losses of these young adults. Thank you Victor.
thankful my mom's aunts daughters grandaughters friend's neighbor wasn't on there either, he has been in the air force 27 years and has a gold star for good behavior.
@@larrybe2900 who is simpler the simpleton or the simpleton that responds to the simpleton on an internet forum in hopes that they will gain some type of simple satisfaction in a huge universe of cold nothings? Ask homer.
@@nynphose Well, if not for the original their would not have been subsequent efforts to point out what you so adequately described yourself. I get no satisfaction at pointing out simpleton behavior other than to let you know rudeness is not humor. Yes, I may have stooped too low to point that out but I strive never to be that original simpleton like yourself.
Makes me sad too. I grew up in the Navy and got to know a lot of service members in my life. Each and every one of them are eager and willing to serve.
Many years ago while at RAF Finningley Air Show as an Air Cadet we were allowed in to the cockpits of an RAF VC-10 and a KC-135. An amazing experience just on its own but also got to sit in the pilots seat on the -135, which was from the Kansas ANG - they had a clock on the bulkhead showing Kansas time which is why I can still say the their time based on GMT minus 6. The KC-135 was parked behind a U-2, did ask jokingly if we could go inside it but the crew of the -135 said it was doubtful. Good memory to have, and respect to the crews for the job they do when a lot of the glory, honour and sometimes pain seems to be more focused on those in the immediate front-line.
Kc135 was long known to be prone to dutch roll Pilot training should have warn pilots of this threat Pilot roll inputs can stop dutch roll immediatly when done with right timing. Theese young pilots seem to not have even recognised the situation... Read tex johnson book, test pilot in the 50s for boeing, he was Well aware of potential hazard. I am a 21000 hours pilot, and I know for sure that the important is to FLY the aircraft when things go wrong
I flew the KC-135A back in the '80s, and part of every simulator training session was recovery from dutch roll. The first (and most important) thing was to remove your feet from the rudder pedals and put them flat on the floor. The LAST thing you wanted to do was introduce ANY rudder input...
@@uniqueurl That aircraft required little, if any, rudder input outside of an engine failure or crosswind landings. Given that they were experiencing uncommanded yaw excursions, whether or not they recognized them as dutch roll, should have clued them to use ailerons only...
@@paulwatters9225 why they haven't recognized it ? They weren't trained sufficiently. Also there was one similar tragedy back in 2001 when an American Airlines pilot made very bad call by overeacting to wake turbulence sheering off the tail at the end
@TheFlightChannel I was on a 135 in a similar situation at Beale AFB in the late 80's. The previous crews on the aircraft were complaining of a yaw/rudder problem that couldn't be fixed so my Autopilot Boss and I got to go up with the crew over Idaho to investigate. The pilot stated when the autopilot was engaged the aircraft would start yawing and the severity increased the longer you left the autopilot on. I honestly thought we were going down as soon and the pilot engaged the yaw axis autopilot, I've never been so scared in my life and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the plane felt the same with how violent it became. As soon as Yaw was disengaged it stopped, we returned and took the plane into maintenance and started investigating. After a few days the problem was determined to be an incorrectly spliced wire going back to the rudder servo motor. It was finally determined this was done at the depot facility, the wires were crossed when spliced back together causing any yaw movement to be increased the longer the yaw autopilot was engaged.
Obviously this was an E series as the R series doesn't have a rudder servomotor. The R has FCAS which consists of EFAS (Engine Fail Assist) and SYD (Series Yaw Damper). In the A series and E series the rudder servomotor simply does yaw damping as the channel input is the yaw rate gyro. The rudder servomotor drives the rudder trim tab through cabling and the rudder follow-up is a synchro with one leg of the Y disconnected. Reverse either the wires to the rudder servomotor drive clutches or the synchro follow-up and that should immediately produce a "hard-over" condition where the control surface goes immediately and rapidly to maximum deflection upon engagement. The EFAS/SYD of the R series used an LVDT (Linear Variable Differential Transformer) as it's feedback. The LVDT is directly attached to the hydraulic actuator that drives the rudder trim tab. Not sure what would cause a "hard-over" condition unless the LVDT experienced catastrophic failure. However, that condition should cause the FCAS computer to throw flags.
Rigging of flight controls is very specific & rigorous detail. More training in maintenance crews to recognize out of synch and crossed cables should be taught more frequently and carefully. Its easy to mix up and hard to detect.
Been in a dutch roll. It looks slow and harmless on film but when you're in it it's pretty noticeable. All the flight surfaces flex, it's pretty scary. I'm amazed the pilots didn't recognize it as it was happening.
Been in one as a passenger as well. Very unnerving knowing that it's not a desirable condition at all, and all the other passengers around you seem oblivious.
This one really strikes home with me. I passed through Manas on my way to deploy to Afghanistan. I bumped into a few people I was in the Navy Reserves with before they "crossed the runway" for the air guard. Our ANG base is one of the few that has all branches represented on it.
@@nl-oc9ew I was stationed at Camp Phoenix and as the transportation officer for all ANA supplies. Wasn’t part of a PRT itself. More of a support role.
What strikes me most of this tragic accident was that this was a REFUELING TANKER ... meaning that its CORE MISSION OBJECTIVE was to support refueling ops while flying level and stable (if you have ever tried to connect to a tanker boom you will understand that) ... and once could not effectively maintain a stable flight attitude, should have immediately scrapped the mission and returned to base.
Return to base presumably requires turning around, and turning a bit caused this disaster, never mind fully around. They give young people very old planes to fly critical missions, and things not working is supposed to be a normal state of affairs.
I don't know what aircrew training was like in the KC-135R; but we spent half a sim session getting hammered on Dutch Roll procedures and recovery in the Starlifter decades before this avoidable tragedy! Obviously Dutch Roll recognition and recovery training was inadequate and it cost this poor crew their lives. I'm sure the training syllabus was changed afterwards.
@@richardkadar7673 In flight Dutch Roll demonstration and recovery was part of the curriculum in the 60s and early 70s. I was a CCTS IP in the 135 flight training "school house". Did it may times.
@@joebagadonuts5573, we'd click off the yaw dampers in flight for an IP led demo to see how much they helped, especially at high altitudes; but we never really pushed it to a significant dutch roll...just watch that nose hunt around.
@@richardkadar7673 Were the yaw dampers in the 141 separate from the autopilot axis on the rudder? 135 A models didn't have a separate active yaw damper like the R models did. I left the 135s in 1971 for KC10s so never got to fly an R model.
I love this channel. But I fly almost twice a week and made the mistake of binge watching while traveling so now I’m Uber sensitive to everything when flying 🤣🤣
Again, saftey of the crew does not seem paramount, where are the ejection seats in these planes? Oh, GOD!! I can't imagine the horror and sadness for these three young beautiful people as they headed into the ground. And why is it, they can figure out what the pilots did wrong, AFTER the accident, why can't they include these scenarios in training, before an accident?? The pilots can take the blame for the accident, but lots of others are responsible for this happening. My heartfelt condolences to the brave crew;s families. So sad,
@@SugarHue Granted, they had been informed of proper procedure, but did they know what the outcome would be if they didn't follow proper procedures? Did they know the plane would come apart if they didn't follow procedures? I wonder, strange that one of them didn't see the awesome dangers involved , so tragic, so tragic, such terror...
@@SugarHue I really doubt they knew they were in a full blown dutch roll situation. They probably assumed turbulence, and then started getting a hint of rudder hunting (hence them mentioning turning off the SYD; unfortunately they did not actually turn it off). The pilot flying would've been in a fly first, troubleshoot second mindset, just trying to fight the aircraft to fly straight and level (gently). Once the controls were handed off, the 2nd pilot flying would not have the stick and rudder references that the first pilot would've gained up to that point in the flight. This probably led him to go back to the "wow this is some funky turbulence" step in his mind. Once the rudder-assisted turn was initiated, it was apparently to late.
I was a crew chief on the " A " models back in the 1980's. They were old airframes back then! Never heard of a yaw dampener failure until the final report of this came out.
I recommend Tex Johnston's book, "Jet-Age Test Pilot". Tex was the lead test pilot for Boeing's 707 program, including the KC-135 version. Tex tells all, about Dutch roll, its causes, and fixes.
I flew many times on the KC135 on Acrive Duty and the USAF Reserves so this is not easy to watch The last flight I ever took was from Dobbins ARB, Georgia to Hanscom AFB, Mass on a KC135 out of McConnell February 2008
You wouldn’t have thought these things could happen nowadays but it just goes to show how vulnerable these aircraft can be at times if the perfect combination of error factors come into play.
Thank god you didn't have to listen to the cockpit voice recorder (CVR). It was bone-chilling. I flew out of Afghanistan and stayed two weeks in Manas before rotating home. Shortly after getting back to my squadron in Okinawa, we had a safety down day and reviewed this incident. Absolutely heart renching. As I recall, however, the crew did finally recognize the issue and began the appropriate emergency checklist. However, they only made it through step 5 before the plane broke up. Disengaging the SYD was step 16. The checklist was rewritten to include disengaging the SYD as boldface (an immediate step in an emergency checklist and one which must be memorized). Not mentioned in this video was the fact that leveling off added dramatically to overstressing the aircraft as it picked up more airspeed. The control inputs of the pilot after leveling off were full yoke deflection to each side. The co-pilot was cautioning him to be careful and he replied with, there's nothing I can do. Trying to run the checklist while having your hands full of a plane that isn't flying right...ugh, I can't fault them on this one. A toast to the crew.
I worked KC-135Rs at Fairchild AFB, WA 1998-2000. I don't remember them having Voice and flight data recorders. Was there a Pacer Craig upgrade where they do now????
@@leonswan6733 I believe it was an upgrade for all USAF and US commercial aircraft (except helicopters) after a certain date (maybe around 2008?). "U.S. registered civil multi-engine turbine-powered aircraft with 6-9 passenger seats where 2 pilots are required by the aircraft's type certificate or the operation under which the flight is being conducted must have a cockpit voice recorder."
@@ChristopherNips81 You said u herd the CVR tapes... did it sound like they was in great suffering in there last moments??? It made me feel so bad. I had a scary moment leaving Moron AB Spain after Allied Force 1999 when for some reason the KC-135 i was on just went into a crazy nose dive right after takeoff... i thought it was the end but he throttled up and pulled up but it was not cool. We had just lost a 141th ANG KC-135 from our base over in Belgium not too long before because of Stab trim runaway.
Brilliant ! brilliant as always TFC. so sad for all involved , all so young , and in the middle of no where , Kyrgyz Republic. Good news about the Ford Bronco ... love the Channel , thanks TFC fantastic !
Many years ago, I saw a awac test version of a 135 coming in for a landing at Boeing field and it was missing 13 feet of the vertical stabilizer. They managed to land it ok and I always wondered how they managed to create enough forces to break off the vertical stabilizer and not lose everything else? Those test pilots have a lot of guts! Got my heart going watching them land just over my head close to the end of the runway.
I was stationed at the Air Force Academy when this happened. Both pilots were Academy grads (as indicated by the pictures in their cadet uniforms) and the loss rocked the entire base.
There are many horrible ways to die, but dying from a plane crash is something that particularly terrifies me. Just simple turbulence on an airplane gets my heart pounding and fear levels through the roof. I can only imagine falling from the air knowing you are about to die.
It’s well known many die from a heart attack or cardiac arrest or pass out before impact from everything that’s going on and what you know is about to happen. You can only hope that happens to you if you ever end up in such a scenario.
Funny, there is no record of a plane crashing due to turbulence. Most of the planes announce their crash at the moment's notice, giving almost no time to react or to make out what's happening. So next time you are in a turbulent sky, be thankful - airplane's working fine!
@@deadnlovingit Not quite true. BOAC Flight 911 (1966) and NLM CityHopper Flight 431 (1981) were two flights that crashed with all lives onboard lost, and both crashes were caused by structural damage to the airplane due to severe turbulence. Certainly it is a rare occurrence, and there hasn't been any further plane crashes caused by turbulence since that CityHopper Flight 431. But it has happened in the past.
Often notice a KC-135 circling over central California, apparently training as part of regular CalANG operations. In the back of my mind, was certain that aircraft was impervious to harm. Surprised such subtle inputs could cause the aircraft to break up in flight.
Amen to that. When you think of the stresses from either combat turns/climbs/decents OR turbulence, how does the tail stay on? I would have assumed that full opposite rudder could possibly cause that level of stress, but oscillations??
Pretty sure I saw this one landing at Fresno Air Terminal back in April or May. Going the opposite way of normal traffic too, so it really caught my eye.
took a trip to Germany and back in a Kc 135 in 1998 and 1999 - From California to Delaware to England to Germany. Was not designed to carry a company of National Guard - those net seats sucked. But only fun thing about it , we had 4 complete sets of UNO cards and a huge piece of plywood which seated 10 of us. Took 4 hours and 15 odd minutes to UNO out a hand. What times
I was a KC-135 Aircraft Commander at the 319th ARW at Grand Forks in the 905th ARS. This video is very accurate on the chain of events that led up to the catastrophic separation of the aircraft's empennage and subsequent complete loss of aircraft. Not only was it in the flight manual to shut the rudder power off, it was a boldface or what the airlines call a memory item of something that you had to know cold for uncommented yaw. Uncommanded Yaw the step was rudder power off, that's it and you left it off and went into the section 3 of the dash 1 which would have told them to keep it off. Also, it was not a procedural memory item, but something we got tested on every year was all of the notes warnings and cautions for the plane, and we had a giant master question file of wrote memory questions we had to regurgitate on closed book test every year. On that a caution was to use lateral controls only to counter Dutch roll. In fact heavy emphasis was to keep your feet off of the rudder during dutch roll and just use the aileron/spoilierons to counter the roll moment from the yaw. This was something that Tex Johnson demoed in the -80 which was the prototype to become 707's and KC-135's. I flew the plane twice with screwed up yaw dampers and following the procedures works. One reason the yaw damper will not work properly is if the rudder power does not change its hydraulic pressure from the high to the low rang after the flaps are up. This was something we had to check. If the rudder power stayed in the high range it would cause the yaw dampers PID control logic to over control and induce dutch roll. Again this is why the procedure was to shut the rudder power off, which kills both the yaw damper and the autopilot. We were once trained to hand fly these things, at least my generation was.
I flew KC-135s from Sep 77 to Jan 83 at McConnell AFB, KS, at which time I PCS'ed to Tinker AFB and AWACS. This brings back memories. I made the cassette tape for folks who did their page counts by themselves, and I typed a list used by many squadron mates of all the Cautions and Warnings using the squadron's IBM Selectric. Such projects filled the after-duty-day hours when on Alert and not playing poker or bridge. We encountered Dutch Roll only rarely in flight and had no trouble with the procedure to recover from it due to simulator training specifically targeting that phenomenon.
@@1954BadCompany You flew the old water burners lol. It was rare to get it, but we were flying the crap out of these things during GWOT. In fact its kinda a testament to the R model with the CFM's that this was the only fatal mishap in the entire span of operations from 2001 to now. It was the second total loss we had. The first one was also at Manas. That one involved a TU144 smacking its wing into a landed KC that did not completely clear the runway. Have to give it to the Ruskies, their Tupalov managed to fly back and land with a big chunk of its wing missing. That one the crew got out of the plane, but it burnt to the ground on the taxiway. I had two instances of flying without rudder power. One was getting uncommanded yaw. One was intermittent yaw moments that at first we assumed turbulence as it did a couple oscillations and stopped. It kept on doing it and started doing it more frequently. At that point I figured something was going on so I shut off the rudder power. The second time was when I raised the flaps on takeoff. Once the flaps were raised you would call "Flaps up, rudder in the X range, after takeoff climb check." That was one where the rudder power hydraulic pressure remained at 3000 PSI when it was supposed to drop to 2600 if I recall. So I shut the rudder power off and hand flew. Now that one I got into some dutch roll climbing through IMC in the rare times in the middle east we had a cloud deck. That one was the least comfortable because I was fighting dutch roll while getting the leans and giant hand effect until I was able to decrease the angle of attack and speed up to a 320 climb. Luckily got out of the cloud deck passing 15,000. Long story short rudder power off and lateral controls seemed to work. Flew an 8 hour mission offloading gas with no issues.
You're videos are getting better and better. Thank you flight channel you are so amazing. The first flight youtuber which I subscribed is you. Legit not a lie. Then luccas and swiss001 and loooOOool yt etc
Sorry for the young crew. They tried the best under the circumstances. It was a 40+ year old aircraft. Flown by thousands of men under the stress of fuel loads and difficult maneuvers. One thing is to fly an airliner, another one is to fly a refueling tanker. 66 million dollar loss for the US? In what, Zimbabwean dollars? That plane was depreciated and accounted for by the time I started college. Let’s just say that I’m young at heart…. Again, my sincere respect for the crew who tried their best to deliver fuel under the difficult circumstances. I’m sure a return to base was not an option.
I was the nav 1 in an RC-135 during inflight refueling training. Our Vice Wing commander was doing the refueling to maintain aircraft qualification and my AC was an instructor qualified pilot in the co-pilot seat. Well, our Vice got us into a really good Dutch Roll in a mode we called checking the numbers, i.e., seeing the tail numbers of the tanker from both sides. The tanker boomer called breakaway, an emergency separation. Let me say a fully developed Dutch Roll is far worse than what the video depicted. Not only we were in uncontrolled roll oscillations, we were swinging around the tanker's tail like a pendulum. Fortunately, my instructor trained AC took over and got us out of the roll without making the mistake of over-stressing the aircraft, usually caused as the video explained by improper rudder input. But it was exciting, so to speak.
What gets me in these videos are how eerie and depressing they are. We never see a depiction of the crew like most aircraft investigation shows or hear their voices. We only see pictures of them.
Thank you for the compliment. I was a boom operator in the KC-135's for 6 years and the KC-10's for 14. We were responsible for more than air refueling. In the KC-135A's, we were also responsible to assist the navigator in celestial navigation using a sextant. All Boom Operators in both aircraft are responsible for the weight and balance, the cargo loading & the supervision of passengers on the aircraft.
RIP. May G-d bless their families and squadronmates. As a former KC-135 Navigator who lost four friends in when their aircraft exploded this is indeed a very sad story.
TFC, you guys are always spot-on in editing your episodes but this one was done curiously out of linear fashion in the beginning. I think the breakdown of aviation terms was a bit overkill too. But keep em coming! Just something I noticed. I learn so much from these tragedies.
Utterly tragic. Such young aviators to die. Amazing people serving their country. I can’t help but think of their loved ones left behind. Not to mention their fellow servicemen and servicewomen.
I flew on these during my time in the USAF. They are certainly old aircraft that have been upgraded alot. I was in this squadron when this happened and it was devastating when I heard about it.
As a commercial pilot for over 50 years and an aircraft mechanic even longer, starting with my Air Force training, I suspect some weakening of the tail structure since the airframe is around 50 years old. They mentioned several times that the control inputs were casual. Boeing’s test pilot, Alvin “Tex” Johnston rolled the 707 on 7 Aug 1955 to sell it to the Air Force. Unless the flight control inputs were abrupt and at or near max travel the structural failure does not make sense, unless it was compromised.
I worked KC-135 Rs at Fairchild AFB, WA. Those are old planes. I saw one split at the tail on the ground because of over pressurization. Not surprising if you add all those gyrations into the equation.
Another commenter in a previous post reported that during a safety-day they were briefed about this accident & the PIC was putting in full deflection yoke inputs to try to control the Dutch roll. Allied to the increase in airspeed due to levelling off, that was always going to stress the airframe.
young Americans serving us....they deserve the utmost respect...irregardless of service , they put their lives on the line daily protecting our way of life....
I’m a 2T251 in the USAF. Worked on these planes a lot when deployed. Got to meet and work with 135 aircrew quite often. Crazy how such an old plane is still widely in use. Not sure why we aren’t switching over to the KC10s by now.
@Steve Wolcott Pretty sure what is above my pay grade? Talking to aircrew? Lol I never said I had the pay grade to make any decisions. I’m just saying it’s illogical to keep an aircraft that is so costly maintenance wise. They constantly break down.
@Steve Wolcott When did I say it was my decision? When did I ever imply that? I simply said that it intrigues me that we haven’t switched fully to the Kc10. Obviously it’s above my pay grade. It would take a panel of military brass to make that decision. Not sure what your point is
KC10 is a pretty old bird too, and getting ready for the boneyard. The real problem with the tanker fleet is the FUBAR amount of time getting the KC46 operational.
I separated from the Air Force in late 1973 with close to 2,000 pilot hours in the Stratobladder. Loved the airplane. The crew of Shell 77 has flown west. RIP. See you guys someday, but in the meantime please pray for us and our great country. We so need it.
I was at McConnell AFB where this jet was assigned 2008-2014, I definitely worked on it at one point. This was a huge deal at the time and alot of work went into finding the fault and making sure we didnt have a risk of other jets going down. It was a reminder of how important our job was and I was thankful is wasnt a maintenance issue. I cant speak on the rudder control system in question because thats avionics but the actual powered rudder is very strong, you can tell during flight control checks, It makes you wonder how weak the airframe actually is... its a very old design after all. Very sad for the crew.. RIP
Often times it's the cumulative effect of "little things" that set up a catastrophic failure. Looking at this after the fact it seems so simple to avoid the outcome but I can see how this type of thing could happen.
The part about the flight manual was interesting. Those flight manuals seem to have an answer to every problem. It makes me wonder who the people are that write them, planning ahead for every possible scenario.
reminds me of the Swiss Air FLT 111 crash. When I smell smoke, I find a place to land the plane. I don't wait until I see the flames while running a long checklist.
As previously stated, much of it is from the experiences of prior accidents, where the investigators picked apart what happened and said "this is what we have to do to prevent this in the future." Some of it also comes from the test pilots, who go out and intentionally take the aircraft out of it's normal state and explore the edges of the envelope, then discuss with engineers how to address issues they discover. The manual can't predict everything, though. Sometimes things happen that nobody anticipated, and the aircrew has to improvise their way through the emergency. See United 232 or BA 009 for instances of things happening that the engineers predicted were impossible, and clever flight crew and good CRM helped avert, or at least mitigate, the "impossible" tragedy.
A new 227 model for Braniff went on a test flight prior to delivery in 1959. As it passed over the small community of Oso, Washington, a Dutch Roll test exceeded its limits and 3 of the 4 engines were stripped off. Unable to make back to Arlington or Paine Field, the crew attempted an emergency landing near the town on the Stillaguamish River. The front portion past the wings was destroyed leaving an intact tail section. 4 of 8 crew were lost.
I'm fascinated that recognition and correction of Dutch Roll isn't taught as a basic maneuver on these types of aircraft. It's an inherent instability mode in swept wing aircraft. I know that yaw dampers are standard fitment any more, but crews aren't trained from early on to stabilize the oscillation with rudder inputs?
@@losttale1 One of the biggest issues with that, is that primary roll control on planes like this is provided by flight spoilers that raise into the air stream to reduce lift and increase drag. Because the feedback loop of the Dutch Roll cycle is fed by the increased drag of the higher, upwind wing, trying to stop the roll with yoke input will dramatically increase the yaw force. From the sounds of it, that's what these pilots actually tried to do, and rather than arrest the oscillation, it increased the yaw deviation until it caused structural failure of the aft fuselage. Boeing and Douglas both ran into the Dutch Roll issue early on, and added yaw dampers to address the issue. But like all mechanical things, it can fail. If it does, you have to manually do what the damper is supposed to do...namely use rudder inputs to arrest the oscillation, then you can level the wings.
I served in the Navy as an aviation ASW technician with P-3A and S-3A squadrons. I got enough flight time in as an IFT in P-3s to recognize a Dutch Roll. Didn't happen very often but its a very uncomfortable sensation, mostly mental on my part I might add, because in the back of your mind you're thinking "Uh....the aircraft is doing something the PIC isn't asking it to do". Anyway, no harm ever came from it. But I experienced it once in a civilian 3-engine passenger aircraft and I gotta tell you, it scared the crap out of me.
I wonder if there have been other similar situations in this type of aircraft where the pilots actually got all the way to #16 on their checklist and if so did it remedy the malfunction?
I ask myself, “why continue with a refueling mission, when you can’t stabilize the aircraft?” My take away from this…… Two people in the cockpit with less than 2,000 hours combined experience. May god bless our hero’s, and those who are no longer with us.
The last three episode of Flight Channel Season 6 would be 21st October 2021: China Airlines 611 28th October 2021: Vietnam Airlines 815 4th November 2021(Epic Season Finale): JAL Airlines 123(Use CVR and 30 minutes long)
thank you for this great presentation! R.I.P. to the Crew. hard to believe that two young pilots were selected to fly such a plane ... a terrible tragedy :(
As a USAF Veteran and assigned assistant crew chief on a KC-135; I am not surprised that the crew was found at fault for this. Typical USAF "procedure". Prayers for the families of the crew.
I don't buy the official cause either! I can't fathom that a slight dutch roll would cause so much structural stress so as to tear the tail off. Sounds more like a metal fatigue issue and control surface issue to me.
@@GrantOakes Just as I said Grant; typical USAF procedure. This is exactly what I thought. My assigned 135; a 62 model is still doing missions with more powerful Turbo Fans. Same fuselage 60 years old.
You guys don't know what you are talking about. The pilot disregarded flight manual procedures and lost control of an aircraft that was 100% flyable. He was 100% at fault and would lose his wings if he had lived. It's like the pilot never even read the flight manual.
@@reddog3544 Apparently you didn't even pay attention to the video, which explained how the pilot caused the accident. I guess because you are a USAF veteran assistant crew chief you don't have to pay attention to the video because you know how to fly them too. But what would I know about it; I'm just a former USAF pilot who once flew a KC-135 out of aggravated Dutch roll at 50,000 feet in a thunderstorm.
I'd just like American people to know that the military is a very dangerous occupation. Even during training you need to keep your FOCUS and especially watch out for one another. Semper Fidelis warriors.
I used to work where periodic depot maintenance was done on KC-135s. The aircraft is stripped and repairs/replacements made. We had the glass cockpit contract, and I did the boom re wiring.
Truly tragic story. I'm a Kc-135 crew chief over here in Washington, this crew was assigned to my base... A couple of my Sergents and a Lieutenant of mine were part of the crash recovery crew assigned to that incident too. Definitely hits close to home. RIP Shell 77.
Uh huh
I was a crew chief at your very location for 11 years. I remember receiving the news of this tragic event. Weeks before I had just helped Capt Voss work on his personal experimental plane. This tragedy reinforced why us maintainers maintain such a high standard of professionalism.
lmao im a boom getting stationed up there cya there
@@nola3864 Hell yeah lol. The base itself can be very boring. However Spokane and the greater Spokane area is absolutely AMAZING, find time to get off base and explore. You won't be sorry.
@@Jon.Luzader Shit, no way? When did you leave? I'm on the guard side but I gotta wonder if we potentially know some of the same people.
I'm a retired USAF KC-135R pilot. I faced this exact situation returning from the Gulf in 1992.
This condition is an annoyance but not something that should cause the loss of a crew.
Tragic.
Former C-141 FE here. Thanks for the gas during Desert Shield/Storm, sir.
This is a repost correct? I watched your old video a couple years ago and have an Interesting story for you. I watched this video the night before I flew a mission in the desert. The next day we had 8 degrees of uncommanded rudder at 315kts, FL250 with an F-15 roughly 20ft from the boom. It went on even with opposite rudder input until this video flashed in my mind and I switched off the upper yaw damp channels. The F-15 pilot said “looks like you guys are movin’ around a lot up there” and backed off. Scary moment! Granted we didn’t have the same Dutch roll conditions as this crew, more of a sudden and large rudder movement, but your video may have saved us lol so thank you!
Woah!!!😮😮😮
That's terrifying to think about.
Wow..well thankfully u clicked on the video..I would think the AF goes through that with you guys especially after this tragedy
@@PapaG603 there’s no checklist for that type of malfunction in the flight manual. As a flight engineer, we rely on our systems knowledge to handle things that are not in an abnormal checklist.
@@_____Justin______ so would they even be able to send fuel with such unsteady control? As i was watching this when The Capt noticed pretty early I was wondering why even continue..Is the pressure to complete the mission that overwhelming?
I flew 135s out of Manas a couple years before this happened. Rudder issues were always something I was cautious of and quite frankly scared of. We would sometimes practice un-commanded hard over rudder in the sim and you would be upside down in a matter of seconds without taking the proper action.
Interesting point to note too, they actually avoid mentioning "hard over rudder" in training now. They want us to just kick the rudder power off before trying to figure out what the specific rudder malfunction might have been
TheDude
QUOTE " Rudder issues were always something I was cautious of and quite frankly scared of"
And rightly so -- rudder hard-over is a very precarious situation to be in and fraught with danger.
not easy to maneuver out of and very little time to correct particularly at low and medium
altitude. The tail section and rudder are the weakest sections of an aircraft and subject to
extreme forces.
A difficult situation to get out of a high risk of total failure of the integrity of the aircraft -
which is not survivable.
@@andrew_koala2974 sorry not a native speaker what is a rudder hard over?
The USAF should be better on servicing & repairs & come to that pilots, the B52 mad pilot was making people refuse to fly with him & yet they don't ground him & his luck runs out & for a crew who went with him - why guys? Ordered but I'd rather do jankers.
@@petysiac : The aircraft rudder deploys completely to one side or the other uncommanded and uncontrolled.
These videos truly make me thank every second I have. Cuz you never know when your time comes.
No truer words have been said.
they knew there was issues, i woulda said nope, abort till fixed.. Sad tho, they hoped all was good, but crew errors cost them their all..
You're absolutely right and they get better by the second, though he could do it twice a week
Especially for that UPS driver in California.
It can faster messing around with these airplanes and boats....stay on the land if you want to live longer
There's a big UA-cam connection here. Captain Mark Tyler Voss was friends with Matt Carriker from Demolition Ranch and Off The Ranch. In fact a Ford Bronco that Cap. Voss owned is being rebuilt by Matt in honor of him, if anyone's interested. Thanks for showing this. Love the channel.
Does matt from demo ranch mention this anywhere
@@Surya-qd1gr He talked about it when he picked up the Branco. It may be in a playlist on his channel.
First he was on "Vet Ranch" with three other vets, which he and his dad had made into a charity, partnering with Abandoned Pet Project.
@@Surya-qd1gr Matt talked about Mark being a groomsman in his wedding (or Matt being in Mark’s, I forget which). The two were very close friends.
I tweeted this link out to Matt. I wondered if he ever knew what exactly happened.
That engine zoom shot sure was cool!
4:15
Agree, it certainly was!
Yep - made me flinch!!
😎👍
What I really don't understand is why the pilots continued their mission after recognizing the yaw hunting. In that unstable flight condition they would never be able to refuel an aircraft, right?
They didn't have time to discuss "continuing the mission" as they were trying to figure out what was wrong. They only got to step 5 of their emergency checklist (step 16 was to disengage the SYD) before the plane broke up. However, presuming they completed the checklist in time and gained control over the aircraft again, they certainly would have RTB and scrubbed the mission.
Yeah no kidding, they didn't remember the part in basic training about dutch roll, used to be a memory item.
@@ChristopherNips81 I'm sure they noted the fact that the pilot said he was turning SYD off when in fact he only turned off AP though. If the copilot wasn't watching I'm sure that would have led to more confusion as she thought the system was turned off.
@@nynphose But they can spend Trillion dollars on a fighter that can't fight
3 months ago this video came out. Air Force Hercules that crashed.
ua-cam.com/video/197IxHaH34s/v-deo.html
And this is the text that I wrote then.
Ok I watched this clip several times now and either I miss something or I'm to stupid.
The flight crew failed to run over the emergency checklist before take off.
They failed to realise that the airplane has some major issues engine nr 1.
They didn't abort the take off.
They didn't go over the checklist after take off.
Failed with the procedure like checking the flaps and so on flew the aircraft against every emergency procedure written in the checklist.
Altogether a chain of events that at the end ended in a stall and crashing in to the ground. With the result of killing everyone on board.
But what I don't understand is the behavior of the crew. What i miss here ( and no this is not a bashing of this channel and this clip) what experience did this crew have. What was the dynamic in the cockpit. Why did all the emergency procedures failed that they the crew should known?. It's really easy to say the pilot was a idiot. But the several minutes from power up take off till the crash i don't understand the behavior of the crew. I really miss something here. Was it the rang structure that made the submissiv behavior of the copilot and the other on the flight deck possible?. Did they flew other models so they assumed that this 130 would behave like the other one. Was it inexperience. I don't get it.
And now we have this Kc 135 crash. But what really made me think was that it's the same kind of failure in processing the flight manual. 2 different aircraft 2 different causes of the resulting crash yet both crew's didn't read the flight manual or failed to realise the something is wrong. Maybe I'm way off but either the air force has a major problem with teaching the new Pilot's or there is a major issue with how to read the flight manual or the emergency check list. And no i don't bash both crew's. It's not my intention to be mean or anything like that but it's like oh shit here we go again.
The detailed, professional and respectful presentation is by far the best that I have seen on You Tube. I am an Air Force Veteran, and having worked with flight crew members via medical support, and recovery of Airmen who lost their lives while serving their country, the respectful manner on the production of this series/program is truly appreciated. I have yet to be a patron of any other programs, but, I will donate to this channel. Impressive and accurate reporting. Thank you.
I grew up on McConnell AFB and my Dad worked on these planes.
Feels very close to home, this tragedy.
I've followed this channel for quite a while, and this is for sure one of the best done yet.
And, thank you for your service!
He just copies and pastes the text from Wikipedia lol
@@ayylmao29 That's because the AIB is 1457 pages long.
The onscreen text should be in the color black in most of these videos. He uses white text on a white sky resulting in difficulty to read. In other words, the production is great but it can be improved.
@@ayylmao29 So? Do you want him to rewrite the investigator’s rapport or what?
First thing that came to my mind: turn ALL automatic flight aiding systems OFF & reduce speed to V(A)...continue hand flying back to airforce base.
Just what I thought. As soon as I take off and see that the plane does what it wants, I turn off all automatic systems.
They would have had to dump about 100,000 lbs. of fuel also to land. Agree with you.
This!
Christian Breuer. Roger that. I was lucky enough to be trained by ex-WWII guys, who literally knocked that into you from Day One. Had a few similar scares in a long career, but their training always saved my neck ...
This is like that crash in New York where the pilot was using excessive rudder inputs after passing through wake turbulence. It seems so shocking that by simply misusing some controls in the cockpit the tail can actually be sheared off.
Yep, that's exactly what came to mind when I watched this video!
@@cameron8679 same here
Yes, that was N14053. American Airlines Flight 587. Poor standard of pilot training at AA, that was what he was taught to do. Little did he realise, HE was causing the condition.
@@channelsixtysix066 The airframe should be able to cope with that. It should cope with all pilot inputs at speeds below max.
Sadly this aircraft was very old and loaded with fuel, so it was quite heavy. Also we underestimate exactly how strong winds are when aircraft fly. There’s more pressure and stress on the frame than we think.
So sad, they were a young crew. My heart goes out to the family of this flight God Bless
There where a young flight crew
They were definitely also the best looking guys and the female I have seen on this channel. I am sure they were very smart as the Airforce doesn't play. Such a terrible loss
Young cockpit crew afraid of repercussions from superiors if they RTB.
@@stretcherbearer1350 Not at all. They certainly would have RTB *after* they regained control of the aircraft. I flew special ops for the USAF and they beat into our heads, YOU are in control of the aircraft, not anyone else. There are zero repercussions if you don't feel the aircraft or crew is capable of completing a mission safely. The military learned those lessons the hard way too many times.
God didn't bless, obviously
The video made the Dutch roll look soooo smooth. I didn’t think anything was being stressed. But obviously it it was a video limitation.
I'm wondering if the simulated flight is different than the actual. i can't see the tail section breaking off under those conditions.
@@halleffect1 yea the video just looked like a slow oscillating yaw. No big deal. It was obviously a higher G load which overloaded the airframe.
@@halleffect1 you can't see it because you don't understand the physics involved, hold a pencil and bend it sideways back and forth and imagine that happening in four different directions, the stress being put on the airframe during the Dutch roll condition it is like bending four different parts of the airplane in four different directions and these aircraft just aren't designed for that kind of stress load, the forces involved are incredible and not necessarily going to be very visible to the naked eye, these pilots should have known better especially the captain to be screwing around with the rudder in this situation.
With such big aircraft it’s hard to visualise it but those kind of movements certainly stress an aircraft, especially over and over and over.
@@badmonkey2222 - It doesn't have to be violent to be catastrophic. Every part has it's stress limits. It was just flexing until the moment it reached it's failure point.
TFC makes the best content on YT. I give him 10/10
When I first started watching these a few years ago, I though he was pinching them from a TV channel (there are lots that do) so props to his amazing dedication!
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'll give him 15/10
Feel so sad as realizing that these Airmen were so young. Way too young. Only in their twentieth and early thirtieth. I know accident happens. Yet to see these young lives taken away so soon, it's nothing less than a tragedy. RIP the crew of this KC 135.
This crew should have had enough experience to know they were doing wrong things...
Writing RIP does nothing for anyone other than yourself
In my days it took a lot of flight hours to move up to aircraft commander!! But before I retired they lowered the number of hours to upgrade. It was a mistake and still is!! As a boom operator I knew the aircraft better than the pilots. I instructed the pilots in all systems for years. I was a hydraulic specialist for 12 years before I switched to be a boom operator. But that was when SAC WAS THE KING. Sorry to see it disbanded. Now you know how old I am???
@@mitchelldarnell5334 No more SAC?
@@Capecodham That’s correct. It’s now called combat air command.They closed a lot of bases and put the different airplanes on the same bases. They don’t remember Pearl Harbor where they had all the planes, ships in the same place. What happened the Japanese destroyed a lot because of that stupid mistake. SAC , stratigic air command, was they spread the planes to many different places across the United States. That way the enemies couldn’t knock all of the bombers and tankers out with one blow. Thinking of saving money by not having many different Bases. “History forgotten will be repeated” The Us government has one job!! That’s to defend the United States of America collectively. But now they are in everybody’s business!!! The states should be running their own agenda without government interference!! Just think of the money the government spends on things other than just defending our freedom. The people paying out the nose in taxes to send to our enemies!! China said they would take America without firing a shot!! Well it’s happening now in front of our eyes!!! We buy their junk and others from around the world??? Why, we could bring all those jobs back, and be the best in the world. Not now America is sinking fast!! I long for the people to be the best in the world!!
A causal factor was "crew composition." I'd like to learn more about that discussion.
Sounds to me like it can only refer to pilot and copilot. Copilot didn't have the same level of experience and the Boom Operator had the most but he had no control over this.
Two young pilots instead of having at least one more experienced flyer
Boomer was too old
@@nefariouspurplebadger I wouldn't say 1,000 hours is inexperienced, quite the opposite infact.
I was going to post that same question.
So many horrible ways to die...
But mid-flight breakup is the stuff of nightmares!
Yes fully agree
I know. It’s the worst.
i dunno, drowning in a metal box like a naval casualty seems worse
The aircraft was 82 degree nose down which is only 8 degrees from vertical when it impacted.
I'd like to have a parachute but that no longer happens. They had them on Enola Gay & that flew at great heights.
I remember an A300 Airbus was lost after inappropriate rudder input flying through turbulence at low altitude during departure. We all had extra mentoring on the correct use of rubber in large transport aircraft. Basically they are foot rests once safely airborne unless there is engine failure then use gently to correct the flight path.
Flight 587?
@@theshermantanker7043 Yes. American Airlines Flight 587.
yeah, sure, that's the reason AA 587 went down. and Epstein also killed himself 🙄
The quality of this presentation was incredible. Thank you very much!
can I see your cleaning pictures
@@theinternetlad I get in too early to take pictures
What do you mean quality? He totally omitted the fact that the plane malfunctioned. What caused the malfunction? That was the true root cause of this accident. But it easy to blame the pilots not following emergency procedures correctly. I was in the Navy. Pilots don't get many breaks. Were they tired? Were they stressed from heavy work load? What broke on the airplane? I was an aviation electrician so I know systems fail all the time. What breakers popped and on what systems? Don't pat the presenter on the back for this one.
@@johnfoulk3448 “he totally omitted the fact that the plane malfunctioned”
13:12 Am I reading this incorrectly?
Who on earth wrote the unintelligible text. Or was is taken directly out of a dictionary by a stray robot?
They were from Fairchild AFB in Spokane, Washington and were amazing people, talked flight crew and loved what they did. They are cherished and missed.
I was apart of the recovery team. I found TSgt Tre Mackey III. RIP Shell 77. And Tre, I may have never met you, but I’m so happy I was able to get you back home.
Thankful my daughter was not on there 25 years with the Air Force.
So very sorry to their parents and family's for the losses of these young adults.
Thank you Victor.
thankful my mom's aunts daughters grandaughters friend's neighbor wasn't on there either, he has been in the air force 27 years and has a gold star for good behavior.
@@nynphose
You proved only that you are a simple person unknowing your attempt at humor is rather stupid.
@@larrybe2900 who is simpler the simpleton or the simpleton that responds to the simpleton on an internet forum in hopes that they will gain some type of simple satisfaction in a huge universe of cold nothings? Ask homer.
@@nynphose
Well, if not for the original their would not have been subsequent efforts to point out what you so adequately described yourself. I get no satisfaction at pointing out simpleton behavior other than to let you know rudeness is not humor. Yes, I may have stooped too low to point that out but I strive never to be that original simpleton like yourself.
Makes me sad too. I grew up in the Navy and got to know a lot of service members in my life. Each and every one of them are eager and willing to serve.
Many years ago while at RAF Finningley Air Show as an Air Cadet we were allowed in to the cockpits of an RAF VC-10 and a KC-135. An amazing experience just on its own but also got to sit in the pilots seat on the -135, which was from the Kansas ANG - they had a clock on the bulkhead showing Kansas time which is why I can still say the their time based on GMT minus 6. The KC-135 was parked behind a U-2, did ask jokingly if we could go inside it but the crew of the -135 said it was doubtful. Good memory to have, and respect to the crews for the job they do when a lot of the glory, honour and sometimes pain seems to be more focused on those in the immediate front-line.
Kc135 was long known to be prone to dutch roll
Pilot training should have warn pilots of this threat
Pilot roll inputs can stop dutch roll immediatly when done with right timing.
Theese young pilots seem to not have even recognised the situation...
Read tex johnson book, test pilot in the 50s for boeing, he was Well aware of potential hazard.
I am a 21000 hours pilot, and I know for sure that the important is to FLY the aircraft when things go wrong
I flew the KC-135A back in the '80s, and part of every simulator training session was recovery from dutch roll. The first (and most important) thing was to remove your feet from the rudder pedals and put them flat on the floor. The LAST thing you wanted to do was introduce ANY rudder input...
@@paulwatters9225 i think , in order to reach DW, they had to do a left heading. What would be the ideal thing to do in that situation ?
@@uniqueurl That aircraft required little, if any, rudder input outside of an engine failure or crosswind landings. Given that they were experiencing uncommanded yaw excursions, whether or not they recognized them as dutch roll, should have clued them to use ailerons only...
@@paulwatters9225 why they haven't recognized it ? They weren't trained sufficiently. Also there was one similar tragedy back in 2001 when an American Airlines pilot made very bad call by overeacting to wake turbulence sheering off the tail at the end
Likely never realized what the SYD had been doing for them in previous flights...
@TheFlightChannel I was on a 135 in a similar situation at Beale AFB in the late 80's. The previous crews on the aircraft were complaining of a yaw/rudder problem that couldn't be fixed so my Autopilot Boss and I got to go up with the crew over Idaho to investigate. The pilot stated when the autopilot was engaged the aircraft would start yawing and the severity increased the longer you left the autopilot on. I honestly thought we were going down as soon and the pilot engaged the yaw axis autopilot, I've never been so scared in my life and I'm pretty sure everyone else on the plane felt the same with how violent it became. As soon as Yaw was disengaged it stopped, we returned and took the plane into maintenance and started investigating. After a few days the problem was determined to be an incorrectly spliced wire going back to the rudder servo motor. It was finally determined this was done at the depot facility, the wires were crossed when spliced back together causing any yaw movement to be increased the longer the yaw autopilot was engaged.
Obviously this was an E series as the R series doesn't have a rudder servomotor. The R has FCAS which consists of EFAS (Engine Fail Assist) and SYD (Series Yaw Damper). In the A series and E series the rudder servomotor simply does yaw damping as the channel input is the yaw rate gyro. The rudder servomotor drives the rudder trim tab through cabling and the rudder follow-up is a synchro with one leg of the Y disconnected. Reverse either the wires to the rudder servomotor drive clutches or the synchro follow-up and that should immediately produce a "hard-over" condition where the control surface goes immediately and rapidly to maximum deflection upon engagement.
The EFAS/SYD of the R series used an LVDT (Linear Variable Differential Transformer) as it's feedback. The LVDT is directly attached to the hydraulic actuator that drives the rudder trim tab. Not sure what would cause a "hard-over" condition unless the LVDT experienced catastrophic failure. However, that condition should cause the FCAS computer to throw flags.
Rigging of flight controls is very specific & rigorous detail. More training in maintenance crews to recognize out of synch and crossed cables should be taught more frequently and carefully. Its easy to mix up and hard to detect.
The cableless planes do not have issues like this.
Been in a dutch roll. It looks slow and harmless on film but when you're in it it's pretty noticeable. All the flight surfaces flex, it's pretty scary. I'm amazed the pilots didn't recognize it as it was happening.
Been in one as a passenger as well. Very unnerving knowing that it's not a desirable condition at all, and all the other passengers around you seem oblivious.
I thought they did recognize but just didn't turn the switch off
( maybe out of uncertainty? )
Mid-air breakups are nightmarish and are inevitably unable to safely recover from.
Great work again, thank you TFC.👏🏻
This one really strikes home with me. I passed through Manas on my way to deploy to Afghanistan. I bumped into a few people I was in the Navy Reserves with before they "crossed the runway" for the air guard. Our ANG base is one of the few that has all branches represented on it.
Thank you for your service.
Oh really? 😮
Thank you for your service!! 🇺🇸
Which PRT did you end up on?
@@nl-oc9ew I was stationed at Camp Phoenix and as the transportation officer for all ANA supplies. Wasn’t part of a PRT itself. More of a support role.
What strikes me most of this tragic accident was that this was a REFUELING TANKER ... meaning that its CORE MISSION OBJECTIVE was to support refueling ops while flying level and stable (if you have ever tried to connect to a tanker boom you will understand that) ... and once could not effectively maintain a stable flight attitude, should have immediately scrapped the mission and returned to base.
Return to base presumably requires turning around, and turning a bit caused this disaster, never mind fully around. They give young people very old planes to fly critical missions, and things not working is supposed to be a normal state of affairs.
Right, and it was there to refuel bombers, that decimated innocent people!
@@tt-ew7rx they could have turned around using ailerons if the dutch roll was still a problem. using the rudder to turn was the issue here
You would think after the first engagement of an autopilot caused oscillations to get worse, that you probably wouldn't do that again.
Maybe they never realized what the SYD had been doing for them in previous flights...
I don't know what aircrew training was like in the KC-135R; but we spent half a sim session getting hammered on Dutch Roll procedures and recovery in the Starlifter decades before this avoidable tragedy! Obviously Dutch Roll recognition and recovery training was inadequate and it cost this poor crew their lives. I'm sure the training syllabus was changed afterwards.
@@richardkadar7673 In flight Dutch Roll demonstration and recovery was part of the curriculum in the 60s and early 70s. I was a CCTS IP in the 135 flight training "school house". Did it may times.
@@joebagadonuts5573, we'd click off the yaw dampers in flight for an IP led demo to see how much they helped, especially at high altitudes; but we never really pushed it to a significant dutch roll...just watch that nose hunt around.
@@richardkadar7673 Were the yaw dampers in the 141 separate from the autopilot axis on the rudder? 135 A models didn't have a separate active yaw damper like the R models did. I left the 135s in 1971 for KC10s so never got to fly an R model.
RIP all 3 crew members of 38877. A sad loss of life.
Writing RIP does nothing for anyone other than yourself
I love this channel. But I fly almost twice a week and made the mistake of binge watching while traveling so now I’m Uber sensitive to everything when flying 🤣🤣
Good… but when I say that I mean to the extent of becoming an expert at diagnostics not an amateur that over analyzes to detriment!
Good comment.
@@cybertrk that’s a great point actually. I’ve become better at being able to identify specific events while flying
I know right? I watched this on a double decker bus, the bumpy ride made the Dutch Roll feel interactive!
Watching all of these vids on plane crashes teaches that with even a small problem, better safe than sorry and get back on the ground.
Capt. Voss was a friend of mine, great heart, never a dull moment, Always Missed.
How terrifying those final moments must’ve been. Just knowing you’re going down, & there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it.
Again, saftey of the crew does not seem paramount, where are the ejection seats in these planes? Oh, GOD!! I can't imagine the horror and sadness for these three young beautiful people as they headed into the ground. And why is it, they can figure out what the pilots did wrong, AFTER the accident, why can't they include these scenarios in training, before an accident?? The pilots can take the blame for the accident, but lots of others are responsible for this happening. My heartfelt condolences to the brave crew;s families. So sad,
@@alanmcneill2407 Its sad but it said in the video that the crew didnt handle the situation as they were supposed to to get them out of it.
@@SugarHue Granted, they had been informed of proper procedure, but did they know what the outcome would be if they didn't follow proper procedures? Did they know the plane would come apart if they didn't follow procedures? I wonder, strange that one of them didn't see the awesome dangers involved , so tragic, so tragic, such terror...
@@SugarHue I really doubt they knew they were in a full blown dutch roll situation. They probably assumed turbulence, and then started getting a hint of rudder hunting (hence them mentioning turning off the SYD; unfortunately they did not actually turn it off). The pilot flying would've been in a fly first, troubleshoot second mindset, just trying to fight the aircraft to fly straight and level (gently). Once the controls were handed off, the 2nd pilot flying would not have the stick and rudder references that the first pilot would've gained up to that point in the flight. This probably led him to go back to the "wow this is some funky turbulence" step in his mind. Once the rudder-assisted turn was initiated, it was apparently to late.
I was a crew chief on the " A " models back in the 1980's. They were old airframes back then! Never heard of a yaw dampener failure until the final report of this came out.
I recommend Tex Johnston's book, "Jet-Age Test Pilot".
Tex was the lead test pilot for Boeing's 707 program, including the KC-135 version. Tex tells all, about Dutch roll, its causes, and fixes.
48 year old aircraft, and inexperienced staff equals death. Very sad!!! Great TFC video!!!!!
Now I can really appreciate you for having included each crew member's name & photograph. ♥
I flew many times on the KC135 on Acrive Duty and the USAF Reserves so this is not easy to watch The last flight I ever took was from Dobbins ARB, Georgia to Hanscom AFB, Mass on a KC135 out of McConnell February 2008
You wouldn’t have thought these things could happen nowadays but it just goes to show how vulnerable these aircraft can be at times if the perfect combination of error factors come into play.
Another Amazing upload TFC! 👍👏
The aircraft did everything it could do to warn them, but it was ignored.
in hindsight.
Thank god you didn't have to listen to the cockpit voice recorder (CVR). It was bone-chilling. I flew out of Afghanistan and stayed two weeks in Manas before rotating home. Shortly after getting back to my squadron in Okinawa, we had a safety down day and reviewed this incident. Absolutely heart renching. As I recall, however, the crew did finally recognize the issue and began the appropriate emergency checklist. However, they only made it through step 5 before the plane broke up. Disengaging the SYD was step 16. The checklist was rewritten to include disengaging the SYD as boldface (an immediate step in an emergency checklist and one which must be memorized). Not mentioned in this video was the fact that leveling off added dramatically to overstressing the aircraft as it picked up more airspeed. The control inputs of the pilot after leveling off were full yoke deflection to each side. The co-pilot was cautioning him to be careful and he replied with, there's nothing I can do. Trying to run the checklist while having your hands full of a plane that isn't flying right...ugh, I can't fault them on this one. A toast to the crew.
I worked KC-135Rs at Fairchild AFB, WA 1998-2000. I don't remember them having Voice and flight data recorders. Was there a Pacer Craig upgrade where they do now????
@@leonswan6733 I believe it was an upgrade for all USAF and US commercial aircraft (except helicopters) after a certain date (maybe around 2008?). "U.S. registered civil multi-engine turbine-powered aircraft with 6-9 passenger seats where 2 pilots are required by the aircraft's type certificate or the operation under which the flight is being conducted must have a cockpit voice recorder."
@@ChristopherNips81 “Civil”.
@@ChristopherNips81 You said u herd the CVR tapes... did it sound like they was in great suffering in there last moments??? It made me feel so bad.
I had a scary moment leaving Moron AB Spain after Allied Force 1999 when for some reason the KC-135 i was on just went into a crazy nose dive right after takeoff... i thought it was the end but he throttled up and pulled up but it was not cool. We had just lost a 141th ANG KC-135 from our base over in Belgium not too long before because of Stab trim runaway.
Sadly, the accident report said (paraphrasing) "flight crew didn't follow the procedures" but then also said (paraphrasing) "the procedures sucked"!!!
Brilliant ! brilliant as always TFC. so sad for all involved , all so young , and in the middle of no where , Kyrgyz Republic. Good news about the Ford Bronco ... love the Channel , thanks TFC fantastic !
Many years ago, I saw a awac test version of a 135 coming in for a landing at Boeing field and it was missing 13 feet of the vertical stabilizer. They managed to land it ok and I always wondered how they managed to create enough forces to break off the vertical stabilizer and not lose everything else? Those test pilots have a lot of guts! Got my heart going watching them land just over my head close to the end of the runway.
Those pilots flew the plane with fly by wire and tabs.... good thing about older Jets is that you may not need hydraulics.
I was stationed at the Air Force Academy when this happened. Both pilots were Academy grads (as indicated by the pictures in their cadet uniforms) and the loss rocked the entire base.
🙏😢
There are many horrible ways to die, but dying from a plane crash is something that particularly terrifies me. Just simple turbulence on an airplane gets my heart pounding and fear levels through the roof. I can only imagine falling from the air knowing you are about to die.
strap on n enjoy the ride, staying seated can help a person survive..
It’s well known many die from a heart attack or cardiac arrest or pass out before impact from everything that’s going on and what you know is about to happen. You can only hope that happens to you if you ever end up in such a scenario.
Actually dying in a plane crash is the best way to go, you won’t feel any pain it’s just instantaneous(if you survive it then good luck with PTSD)
Funny, there is no record of a plane crashing due to turbulence. Most of the planes announce their crash at the moment's notice, giving almost no time to react or to make out what's happening. So next time you are in a turbulent sky, be thankful - airplane's working fine!
@@deadnlovingit Not quite true. BOAC Flight 911 (1966) and NLM CityHopper Flight 431 (1981) were two flights that crashed with all lives onboard lost, and both crashes were caused by structural damage to the airplane due to severe turbulence.
Certainly it is a rare occurrence, and there hasn't been any further plane crashes caused by turbulence since that CityHopper Flight 431. But it has happened in the past.
So tragic, such a young and beautiful crew! My goodness the age of the aircraft 47 years old. Wow
Russia is still flying aircraft made in the 1950s.
@@MrChopsticktech well that's a scary thought! I would be worried to be in a car that old but a plane. Forget that!
@@JasonFlorida a car that old is worse
@@MrChopsticktech dont worry so are we
Often notice a KC-135 circling over central California, apparently training as part of regular CalANG operations. In the back of my mind, was certain that aircraft was impervious to harm. Surprised such subtle inputs could cause the aircraft to break up in flight.
Probably never realized what a working SYD had been doing for them in previous flights...
Amen to that. When you think of the stresses from either combat turns/climbs/decents OR turbulence, how does the tail stay on? I would have assumed that full opposite rudder could possibly cause that level of stress, but oscillations??
They do touch and go's at Stockton airport
Pretty sure I saw this one landing at Fresno Air Terminal back in April or May. Going the opposite way of normal traffic too, so it really caught my eye.
The “CalANG” does not have any KC-135s. Those KC-135s that you saw belong to AFRC.
This is a very fine presentation.
took a trip to Germany and back in a Kc 135 in 1998 and 1999 - From California to Delaware to England to Germany. Was not designed to carry a company of National Guard - those net seats sucked. But only fun thing about it , we had 4 complete sets of UNO cards and a huge piece of plywood which seated 10 of us. Took 4 hours and 15 odd minutes to UNO out a hand. What times
I was about 12 years old and I’m interested to know: What was going on back then, what was the political climate, what was your mission?
@@livelyupmyself1 nothing political : it was a rotation training in Hohenfels , Germany - a 22 days training period.
They are getting better and better every time. Dam'n, this was a very haunting and exciting episode, empowered with superb editing. Thank you.
Superb editing?! It was written by a robot with scant feeling for the English language.
I was a KC-135 Aircraft Commander at the 319th ARW at Grand Forks in the 905th ARS. This video is very accurate on the chain of events that led up to the catastrophic separation of the aircraft's empennage and subsequent complete loss of aircraft. Not only was it in the flight manual to shut the rudder power off, it was a boldface or what the airlines call a memory item of something that you had to know cold for uncommented yaw. Uncommanded Yaw the step was rudder power off, that's it and you left it off and went into the section 3 of the dash 1 which would have told them to keep it off.
Also, it was not a procedural memory item, but something we got tested on every year was all of the notes warnings and cautions for the plane, and we had a giant master question file of wrote memory questions we had to regurgitate on closed book test every year. On that a caution was to use lateral controls only to counter Dutch roll. In fact heavy emphasis was to keep your feet off of the rudder during dutch roll and just use the aileron/spoilierons to counter the roll moment from the yaw. This was something that Tex Johnson demoed in the -80 which was the prototype to become 707's and KC-135's. I flew the plane twice with screwed up yaw dampers and following the procedures works. One reason the yaw damper will not work properly is if the rudder power does not change its hydraulic pressure from the high to the low rang after the flaps are up. This was something we had to check. If the rudder power stayed in the high range it would cause the yaw dampers PID control logic to over control and induce dutch roll. Again this is why the procedure was to shut the rudder power off, which kills both the yaw damper and the autopilot. We were once trained to hand fly these things, at least my generation was.
I flew KC-135s from Sep 77 to Jan 83 at McConnell AFB, KS, at which time I PCS'ed to Tinker AFB and AWACS. This brings back memories. I made the cassette tape for folks who did their page counts by themselves, and I typed a list used by many squadron mates of all the Cautions and Warnings using the squadron's IBM Selectric. Such projects filled the after-duty-day hours when on Alert and not playing poker or bridge. We encountered Dutch Roll only rarely in flight and had no trouble with the procedure to recover from it due to simulator training specifically targeting that phenomenon.
@@1954BadCompany You flew the old water burners lol. It was rare to get it, but we were flying the crap out of these things during GWOT. In fact its kinda a testament to the R model with the CFM's that this was the only fatal mishap in the entire span of operations from 2001 to now. It was the second total loss we had. The first one was also at Manas. That one involved a TU144 smacking its wing into a landed KC that did not completely clear the runway. Have to give it to the Ruskies, their Tupalov managed to fly back and land with a big chunk of its wing missing. That one the crew got out of the plane, but it burnt to the ground on the taxiway.
I had two instances of flying without rudder power. One was getting uncommanded yaw. One was intermittent yaw moments that at first we assumed turbulence as it did a couple oscillations and stopped. It kept on doing it and started doing it more frequently. At that point I figured something was going on so I shut off the rudder power. The second time was when I raised the flaps on takeoff. Once the flaps were raised you would call "Flaps up, rudder in the X range, after takeoff climb check." That was one where the rudder power hydraulic pressure remained at 3000 PSI when it was supposed to drop to 2600 if I recall. So I shut the rudder power off and hand flew. Now that one I got into some dutch roll climbing through IMC in the rare times in the middle east we had a cloud deck. That one was the least comfortable because I was fighting dutch roll while getting the leans and giant hand effect until I was able to decrease the angle of attack and speed up to a 320 climb. Luckily got out of the cloud deck passing 15,000. Long story short rudder power off and lateral controls seemed to work. Flew an 8 hour mission offloading gas with no issues.
You are a public service with a heart.
You're videos are getting better and better. Thank you flight channel you are so amazing. The first flight youtuber which I subscribed is you. Legit not a lie. Then luccas and swiss001 and loooOOool yt etc
Sorry for the young crew. They tried the best under the circumstances.
It was a 40+ year old aircraft. Flown by thousands of men under the stress of fuel loads and difficult maneuvers. One thing is to fly an airliner, another one is to fly a refueling tanker.
66 million dollar loss for the US? In what, Zimbabwean dollars? That plane was depreciated and accounted for by the time I started college. Let’s just say that I’m young at heart….
Again, my sincere respect for the crew who tried their best to deliver fuel under the difficult circumstances.
I’m sure a return to base was not an option.
superb background sounds. I hope everyone enjoyed
Honestly the videos you produce are just amazing. Thank You so much.
4:23 Look at that transition!
what a horrible tragedy. truly disheartening to watch. thanks for the information and recreation.
young inexperienced pilots unaware of the evolving situation and limits of their aircraft....so sad
I was the nav 1 in an RC-135 during inflight refueling training. Our Vice Wing commander was doing the refueling to maintain aircraft qualification and my AC was an instructor qualified pilot in the co-pilot seat.
Well, our Vice got us into a really good Dutch Roll in a mode we called checking the numbers, i.e., seeing the tail numbers of the tanker from both sides. The tanker boomer called breakaway, an emergency separation.
Let me say a fully developed Dutch Roll is far worse than what the video depicted. Not only we were in uncontrolled roll oscillations, we were swinging around the tanker's tail like a pendulum.
Fortunately, my instructor trained AC took over and got us out of the roll without making the mistake of over-stressing the aircraft, usually caused as the video explained by improper rudder input. But it was exciting, so to speak.
What gets me in these videos are how eerie and depressing they are. We never see a depiction of the crew like most aircraft investigation shows or hear their voices. We only see pictures of them.
I love these high-quality videos!😉
As an aviation enthusiast and worker in film sound, I am happy to know boom operators also have a function in an airplane 😃
Thank you for the compliment. I was a boom operator in the KC-135's for 6 years and the KC-10's for 14. We were responsible for more than air refueling. In the KC-135A's, we were also responsible to assist the navigator in celestial navigation using a sextant. All Boom Operators in both aircraft are responsible for the weight and balance, the cargo loading & the supervision of passengers on the aircraft.
RIP. May G-d bless their families and squadronmates. As a former KC-135 Navigator who lost four friends in when their aircraft exploded this is indeed a very sad story.
God bless these crew members and thank you for your service to this nation!
Why didn’t God save them then?
What a terrible tragedy for three such young people to lose their lives. Rest in Peace to all of them.
TFC, you guys are always spot-on in editing your episodes but this one was done curiously out of linear fashion in the beginning. I think the breakdown of aviation terms was a bit overkill too. But keep em coming! Just something I noticed. I learn so much from these tragedies.
Utterly tragic. Such young aviators to die. Amazing people serving their country. I can’t help but think of their loved ones left behind. Not to mention their fellow servicemen and servicewomen.
I flew on these during my time in the USAF. They are certainly old aircraft that have been upgraded alot. I was in this squadron when this happened and it was devastating when I heard about it.
As a commercial pilot for over 50 years and an aircraft mechanic even longer, starting with my Air Force training, I suspect some weakening of the tail structure since the airframe is around 50 years old. They mentioned several times that the control inputs were casual. Boeing’s test pilot, Alvin “Tex” Johnston rolled the 707 on 7 Aug 1955 to sell it to the Air Force. Unless the flight control inputs were abrupt and at or near max travel the structural failure does not make sense, unless it was compromised.
Not "casual". The word used was "causal". Entirely different.
I worked KC-135 Rs at Fairchild AFB, WA. Those are old planes. I saw one split at the tail on the ground because of over pressurization. Not surprising if you add all those gyrations into the equation.
Another commenter in a previous post reported that during a safety-day they were briefed about this accident & the PIC was putting in full deflection yoke inputs to try to control the Dutch roll. Allied to the increase in airspeed due to levelling off, that was always going to stress the airframe.
The following day, Boeing president Bill Allen "reamed" Tex, for doing the barrel roll, in the 707 prototype.
@@starguy2718 yes he did. If he did it again He would of been fired.
Loved the episode! I've never heard of this accident but its really interesting! Keep going!
young Americans serving us....they deserve the utmost respect...irregardless of service , they put their lives on the line daily protecting our way of life....
I’m a 2T251 in the USAF. Worked on these planes a lot when deployed. Got to meet and work with 135 aircrew quite often. Crazy how such an old plane is still widely in use. Not sure why we aren’t switching over to the KC10s by now.
@Steve Wolcott Pretty sure what is above my pay grade? Talking to aircrew? Lol I never said I had the pay grade to make any decisions. I’m just saying it’s illogical to keep an aircraft that is so costly maintenance wise. They constantly break down.
@Steve Wolcott When did I say it was my decision? When did I ever imply that? I simply said that it intrigues me that we haven’t switched fully to the Kc10. Obviously it’s above my pay grade. It would take a panel of military brass to make that decision. Not sure what your point is
KC10 is a pretty old bird too, and getting ready for the boneyard. The real problem with the tanker fleet is the FUBAR amount of time getting the KC46 operational.
The KC-135 has a superior reliability to anything that exists in our fleet currently.
@@isleman9473 They shouldn't have removed the window refueling system. The 3D system is overly complicated and has numerous bugs.
I separated from the Air Force in late 1973 with close to 2,000 pilot hours in the Stratobladder. Loved the airplane. The crew of Shell 77 has flown west. RIP. See you guys someday, but in the meantime please pray for us and our great country. We so need it.
I was at McConnell AFB where this jet was assigned 2008-2014, I definitely worked on it at one point. This was a huge deal at the time and alot of work went into finding the fault and making sure we didnt have a risk of other jets going down. It was a reminder of how important our job was and I was thankful is wasnt a maintenance issue. I cant speak on the rudder control system in question because thats avionics but the actual powered rudder is very strong, you can tell during flight control checks, It makes you wonder how weak the airframe actually is... its a very old design after all. Very sad for the crew.. RIP
Another Amazing videos as always…🤩🤩🤩Keep it up!!!👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻✌🏻
Often times it's the cumulative effect of "little things" that set up a catastrophic failure. Looking at this after the fact it seems so simple to avoid the outcome but I can see how this type of thing could happen.
Great video!!!! Please do the 2011 Reno plane crash
The part about the flight manual was interesting. Those flight manuals seem to have an answer to every problem. It makes me wonder who the people are that write them, planning ahead for every possible scenario.
reminds me of the Swiss Air FLT 111 crash. When I smell smoke, I find a place to land the plane. I don't wait until I see the flames while running a long checklist.
The answer to that is foresight from previous tragedies. All of the manual is written in blood
@@saboabbas123 Takeoff to crash was 08:48:14 when the CVR excerpt is (sound of metal crumpling and wind blowing)
As previously stated, much of it is from the experiences of prior accidents, where the investigators picked apart what happened and said "this is what we have to do to prevent this in the future."
Some of it also comes from the test pilots, who go out and intentionally take the aircraft out of it's normal state and explore the edges of the envelope, then discuss with engineers how to address issues they discover.
The manual can't predict everything, though. Sometimes things happen that nobody anticipated, and the aircrew has to improvise their way through the emergency. See United 232 or BA 009 for instances of things happening that the engineers predicted were impossible, and clever flight crew and good CRM helped avert, or at least mitigate, the "impossible" tragedy.
Not Ernest Hemingway.
A new 227 model for Braniff went on a test flight prior to delivery in 1959. As it passed over the small community of Oso, Washington, a Dutch Roll test exceeded its limits and 3 of the 4 engines were stripped off. Unable to make back to Arlington or Paine Field, the crew attempted an emergency landing near the town on the Stillaguamish River. The front portion past the wings was destroyed leaving an intact tail section. 4 of 8 crew were lost.
I'm fascinated that recognition and correction of Dutch Roll isn't taught as a basic maneuver on these types of aircraft. It's an inherent instability mode in swept wing aircraft.
I know that yaw dampers are standard fitment any more, but crews aren't trained from early on to stabilize the oscillation with rudder inputs?
can't they just use roll input?
@@losttale1
One of the biggest issues with that, is that primary roll control on planes like this is provided by flight spoilers that raise into the air stream to reduce lift and increase drag. Because the feedback loop of the Dutch Roll cycle is fed by the increased drag of the higher, upwind wing, trying to stop the roll with yoke input will dramatically increase the yaw force.
From the sounds of it, that's what these pilots actually tried to do, and rather than arrest the oscillation, it increased the yaw deviation until it caused structural failure of the aft fuselage.
Boeing and Douglas both ran into the Dutch Roll issue early on, and added yaw dampers to address the issue. But like all mechanical things, it can fail. If it does, you have to manually do what the damper is supposed to do...namely use rudder inputs to arrest the oscillation, then you can level the wings.
The KC-135 is prone to this. Every pilot is trained on how to recover. For some reason, they just didn't recognize it.
@@joebagadonuts5573
Well, I stand corrected then.
I served in the Navy as an aviation ASW technician with P-3A and S-3A squadrons. I got enough flight time in as an IFT in P-3s to recognize a Dutch Roll. Didn't happen very often but its a very uncomfortable sensation, mostly mental on my part I might add, because in the back of your mind you're thinking "Uh....the aircraft is doing something the PIC isn't asking it to do". Anyway, no harm ever came from it. But I experienced it once in a civilian 3-engine passenger aircraft and I gotta tell you, it scared the crap out of me.
Always looking forward to your videos, RIP to the fallen soldiers
Writing RIP does nothing for anyone other than yourself
I wonder if there have been other similar situations in this type of aircraft where the pilots actually got all the way to #16 on their checklist and if so did it remedy the malfunction?
I would have thought with Yaw Damper and dutch roll problems they would have aborted the mission earlier. Can't refuel if the boom is bobing around.
I ask myself, “why continue with a refueling mission, when you can’t stabilize the aircraft?” My take away from this…… Two people in the cockpit with less than 2,000 hours combined experience. May god bless our hero’s, and those who are no longer with us.
What a tragedy. Thanks for another excellent video.
Damn, really saddening to hear when the entire section if a plane falls out, reminds me on China Airlines 611
The last three episode of Flight Channel Season 6 would be
21st October 2021: China Airlines 611
28th October 2021: Vietnam Airlines 815
4th November 2021(Epic Season Finale): JAL Airlines 123(Use CVR and 30 minutes long)
It’s to bad . A real shame for the three young crew and pilots. GOD Bless them.
May they Forever Rest In Peace 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🌺🌺🌺
Amen. 🙏🏼
thank you for this great presentation! R.I.P. to the Crew. hard to believe that two young pilots were selected to fly such a plane ... a terrible tragedy :(
Hard to believe indeed!
As a USAF Veteran and assigned assistant crew chief on a KC-135; I am not surprised that the crew was found at fault for this. Typical USAF "procedure". Prayers for the families of the crew.
I don't buy the official cause either! I can't fathom that a slight dutch roll would cause so much structural stress so as to tear the tail off. Sounds more like a metal fatigue issue and control surface issue to me.
@@GrantOakes Just as I said Grant; typical USAF procedure. This is exactly what I thought. My assigned 135; a 62 model is still doing missions with more powerful Turbo Fans. Same fuselage 60 years old.
You guys don't know what you are talking about. The pilot disregarded flight manual procedures and lost control of an aircraft that was 100% flyable. He was 100% at fault and would lose his wings if he had lived. It's like the pilot never even read the flight manual.
@@gort8203 Not convinced you know what you are talking about either.
@@reddog3544 Apparently you didn't even pay attention to the video, which explained how the pilot caused the accident. I guess because you are a USAF veteran assistant crew chief you don't have to pay attention to the video because you know how to fly them too. But what would I know about it; I'm just a former USAF pilot who once flew a KC-135 out of aggravated Dutch roll at 50,000 feet in a thunderstorm.
A very interesting incident and your presentation as always thorough and detailed.
Im here early today, Tfs flightchannel. RIP to the 3 ppl on this flight. Sad!🙁🙏🏾💋
ppl? TFs? Writing RIP does nothing for anyone other than yourself
That's tragic, rest in peace to this crew.
I'd just like American people to know that the military is a very dangerous occupation. Even during training you need to keep your FOCUS and especially watch out for one another. Semper Fidelis warriors.
Truth
I used to work where periodic depot maintenance was done on KC-135s. The aircraft is stripped and repairs/replacements made. We had the glass cockpit contract, and I did the boom re wiring.
I wouldn't exactly call that 'immediately'. Still, love TFC, glad we're back to the old format.
I was there when this happened
You are amazing. I wish you could post every day.