Edward Fudge, The Fire That Consumes 09/24/2011
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment Around the world today, evangelical Bible scholars are giving hell a serious second look. Would the God who gave his Son to die for sinners finally keep billions of them alive forever to torment them without end? Does Holy Scripture require such a conclusion-or offer a different vision? The story of how the great majority of Christians came to teach unending conscious torment is as fascinating as any mystery or “Who-done-it.” In this lecture, Edward will identify scores of generally-overlooked Scriptures, then lead a tour through some paths of church history that are less well travelled, and which are haunted by pagan philosophy, medieval law and Reformation politics. One match that helped ignite the current debate about hell was Edward’s book, The Fire That Consumes, first published in 1982, with a foreword by the respected New Testament commentator F. F. Bruce. A revised and updated third edition (June 2011) has a foreword by Professor Richard Bauckham of the University of Cambridge.
#annihilationism #bible #deathofjesus #ffbruce #hell #richardbauckham #ltl #laniertheologicallibrary #edwardfudge #thefirethatconsumes #universityofcambridge #scripture #christians
I had the pleasure of of meeting Edward fudge back in the early 2000s ‘ at Pepperdine university ‘ I think I remember talking to him about the intermediate state’ i’ve always had an interest in that ‘ never thought it seemed right that someone would be conscious without a resurrected body ? After preaching HELL fire and brimstone for the wicked throughout eternity’ I now believe in the doctrine of conditional immortality ! Seems more biblical’ I have listened to several debates the brothers defending eternal conscious torment don’t do well😢
Amen! Those defend ECT appear either deceptive or demented. They fulfill the scripture About deceiving and being deceived. Listening to Mr Fudge simply quote scripture and have these snakes twist and coil the most bizarre turning of scripture!
Well... I have been in a discussion with 2 scholars concerning my traditionally held belief of ECT after watching this video and studying intensely for 3 weeks I have left the ECT camp. It truly is life or death... not eternal life or on going eternal death.
What is ECT?
@@treefellonya Eternal Conscious Torment
@@timmckenzie9542 Ahhh, ok. Duh.Thank God you know the truth. I used to be Calvinist, and if you know that doctrine, it is even worse. You have no choice whether you are tortured for eternity, or saved to eternal bliss. God arbitrarily chooses for you. When I accepted the truth about free choice and no eternal everlasting torture chamber for the lost., it made me love God so much. I felt safe to come to God with my weaknesses. It really tarnishes Gods Loving nature to say he tortures people eternally. Punishment, yes. PunishING, no. Cant imagine how many Atheists that "ECT" has made.
Wrong. You need to learn sound biblical exegesis and take the whole counsel of God... and leave your impression behind.
What does "everlasting" mean?"“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41
and again from the Lord Jesus Himself "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" vs. 46
"where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:44
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;" Rev 14:11
REPENT and trust what God says.
You must be born again
Traditions also roll "Easter eggs" doing blaspheme with the Easter Bunny. Rolling Easter fertility eggs blaspheme with the ,"Easter Bunny" Blaspheme right on Passover. Who is teaching about this Blaspheme? Who is that cat that is in the "picture" of the Lord Yesua Jesus Christ? It is NOT him. That cat will claim
to be the Lord. And fool all of the earth.
A very shallow take on scripture.
Shallow take? ECT has just a few passages that can give an impression of infinite torture yet all those passages use the very same phrases that give that impression for very temporary, non-torturous events in history found elsewhere in the Bible. Your view is shallow. If the Bible defines the words of the Bible, then it cannot be concluded ECT is true, rather that death means death, eternal does not mean infinite and life is not quality.
@@KevinGeneFeldman This is where you go wrong-->"impression" this and "impression" that. You need to learn sound biblical exegesis and take the whole counsel of God... and leave your impression behind.
What does "everlasting" mean?"“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41
and again from the Lord Jesus Himself "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" vs. 46
"where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:44
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;" Rev 14:11
REPENT and trust what God says.
You must be born again
@@brodymacintyre4711 I know all of those verses, you made no argument, every single one of those are addressed. YOU are the one giving an impression to these words outside of the meaning they have already been used in in other parts of the Bible. You're the only one giving them meaning not given meaning in the Bible already. You have to willfully perceive these verses with eternal torture in mind, coming from paganism, because its your preconceived idea that the soul is inherently immortal, which it is not.
Smoke rising up forever, used in the Bible to describe a temporary historical event. Everlasting punishment, being dead forever is everlasting punishment. Your view is out of line with the character of God, Jesus teachings on fair punishment, all the examples given in the Bible pertaining to the fate of the unsaved and against the plain meaning of words used, such as perish and die.
Listen to the teaching Brody. Everyone here knows you haven't listened to the teaching because every scripture you bring up has been addressed. Watch it, listen and learn! @@brodymacintyre4711
I don’t know why this is so difficult for some of you to understand, so pay attention to these personal pronouns. I’ll make them all caps so you can’t miss them:
YOU shall surely die.
From dust YOU came, to dust YOU shall return.
Nothing was said about some pagan immortal soul that floats away after death of the body. Get the Roman garbage out of doctrine and believe the resurrection of the dead, not Plato’s immortal soul.
They say “death is not really death but separation.” But this is completely proven false because God put a cherub with a flaming sword at the gate to Eden to keep Adam and Eve from the Tree of Life and “live forever” in a state of sin, which is exactly what a pagan “Hell” would be.
Great study. Interesting that Paul says "Therefore, I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. " (Acts 26/7), and yet he does not mention hell in his Epistles.
Good point!
Excellent presentation.
Amen.
This is the most biblically consistent view. Excellent study.
Wonderful teaching ☺️👍🏽
Wrong. You need to learn sound biblical exegesis and take the whole counsel of God... and leave your impression behind.
What does "everlasting" mean?"“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41
and again from the Lord Jesus Himself "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" vs. 46
"where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:44
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;" Rev 14:11
REPENT and trust what God says.
You must be born again
Beautiful
Beautiful presentation. Thank you.
I'm so grateful for this teaching. I am however, struggling with knowing where I fit in the body of Christ because I agree with Mr. Fudge. I have a hard time partnering in ministry with churches because they hold the traditional view, and it greatly disturbs me to be a part of it. I want to be a part of something that represents God's character accurately, and I have yet to find a church where I live that I can get on board with. Some people tell me that I should be willing to just agree to disagree and be a part of the ministry, but I simply cannot get myself to do that. I know there's no such thing as a perfect church, and I know that many churches disagree on different issues of doctrine, but when it comes to God's character, that matters.
Wrong. You need to learn sound biblical exegesis and take the whole counsel of God... and leave your impression behind.
What does "everlasting" mean?"“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41
and again from the Lord Jesus Himself "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" vs. 46
"where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:44
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;" Rev 14:11
REPENT and trust what God says.
You must be born again
@@randy_jams No amount of so-called research will matter unless you are born again... and when you tell religious types that these days, that they MUST be born again, the same thing the Lord Jesus declared... they call you a Pharisee. Hahaha... it's a fall back mechanism when you address their root problem.
You say you believe (while disparaging God's Word) but even the demons believe.. and tremble(James 2:19)... you think they tremble about annihilation? Hahaha, how utterly myopic and self-serving. So should you tremble until you are born again.
Imagine allowing the world and their perceptions to dictate what you are called. Such weak men these days. "oh no, they might think ill of me, so I will stop calling myself a Christian"!, which is what the bible calls us "Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name" 1 Peter 4:16.... but you shrink away like a sensitive little girl whose top priority is for everyone to like her.
I've noticed that the only ones who try to lessen the horrors of eternal HELL are those who are still afraid of HELL. And those of us who are born again thru genuine faith in Christ do not fear Hell in the least. Your fear drives you on every level of your heresy!
REPENT of your lies and worldliness.
You need to watch the teaching. @@brodymacintyre4711
@@brodymacintyre4711 I encourage you to keep studying yourself. Study all the meanings of those words and study context.
The 7th Day Adventist church teaches pretty much the same as he is teaching here. Of course, many people don't like that church because it teaches keeping the 7th day as Sabbath. But if one does a careful study of the subject from all the Bible texts, that is what it teaches. Sunday keeping comes ultimately from paganism and sun worship.
There is no question that Mr. Fudge is a humble and scholarly man but very possibly he neglected to read the very back of the book. Here is what the Bible actually states about everlasting punishment: Rev 14:9 If anyone receives the mark of the beast on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of the wrath of God.....and will be tormented with the fire and brimstone; VS 11 and the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever they will have no rest day and night. Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.... and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire. The key to avoiding this awful terrible tragedy is to do exactly what Jesus told the religious leader of the Jews to do: "Truly, truly, unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God." John 3:3 How? Repent of your sins and ask God for His mercy and to forgive you. Believe that Jesus is truly the Son of God and that he died in the cross to redeemed you with his precious blood. Trust in Him, confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. Receive His free gift of grace through your complete faith in him and you will become a child of God. John 1:12
so you're saying that when Jesus said in John 3:16 that the lost will perish, they will not really perish, but will wish they could.
Ralph Bowles has a good article on Rev 14:9-11 called "Does Revelation 14:9-11 teach eternal torment?" You can find it online to read a good annihilationist explanation of that verse.
Revelation 14:9-11 does not say “they will be tormented forever”, but that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. See Isaiah 34:9-10 and Revelation 19:3. In both cases, the [complete] destruction happens in a short timeframe and then the smoke continues to rise “forever” afterwards. It neither case was there undestroyed stuff that still needed to be destroyed or that they were being “destroyed” while simultaneously persisting (as Eternal Conscious Torment would claim). Plus if they were tormented actively forever and ever “in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb”, that would imply Jesus is only partially with us in Heaven and His angels not at all, since they aren’t omnipresent.
Revelation 20:10 If “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” had not been included, the reader would naturally assume that the devil, beast, false prophet, Death, Hades, and those not in the book of life would all be destroyed by the lake of fire (since that is what fire does). But this is interjected to clarify that the lake of fire is operating on the devil, beast, and false prophet in an atypical way and they would not be destroyed. So then the question is: does this atypical operation apply to everyone in verse 10-15, or just those listed in verse 10? The fact that the statement “they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” occurs in verse 10, after only those 3 are in the lake of fire is important. God could have been crystal clear if ECT were correct and just put “and they all will be tormented day and night forever and ever” at the very end of verse 15. But by putting it in verse 10, it appears to make the statement that this specifically applies only to the devil, beast and false prophet and NOT to anything else that gets thrown in. Therefore, by exclusion from the list of persons in verse 10, the wicked in verse 15 will NOT be tormented day and night forever and ever. Just as Death is destroyed in the lake of fire, so are the unrighteous.
This has always confused me, we take literally only this part pretty much of revelation, the MOST figurative and imaginative letter in the entire list.
Hades may end up being exactly what Catholics call purgatory. There is some evidence for this but I could be wrong.
Maybe you should research to find out for sure. You have everything to lose, or heaven to gain. What is your eternal soul worth?
@@tomgarrison5313
Believing in purgatory or not is not a salvation issue, so please don’t make it one.
@@tomgarrison5313
The soul is not eternal. Scripture is abundantly clear on this point. The doctrine of the immortal soul was one of Luther’s main charges against the RCC. Same with Wycliffe and Tyndale
30:00 - 31:30 simple thought: those who die w/o God no longer have the Imago dei?
No, both Hades and the lake of fire have fire and suffering. To say which lasts longer is not clear but everyone from Satan to Hitler to the people that just miss out on life everlasting, God knows when to say they 'have paid the last penny'...
death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire(Rev 20)
The one thing I don't get is Aion Aion is translated for ever and ever...please explain 26:53 27:42 28:12
The term is "eis aion aion." "ies aion" can be translated "unto eternity" or "for ever," and the latter is "forever and ever." Lots of languages double a word to represent an exponential or greater version of the word.
Words are flexible. It could mean forever or it could mean a long period of time depending on the context.
And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Yes, but you are assuming "hell" to mean continuing eternally. Hell is defined as Grave. - Annihilation is eternal death. There is a lake of fire, but the end is complete and utter destruction. Gone. That is annihilation.
He is not assuming anything right?
He probably has no clue what words “Hell” were translated from.
He probably has no clue that the immortal soul has pagan origins.
And I guess he doesn’t believe God when He says YOU shall surely die.
I’m really struggling with the question of whether these people are deceived or if they are deceivers.
@@treefellonya You have no evidence of annihilation, just an assertion.
@@HG-ic8ks That's what we get after a half generation of denigrating eschatology and calling everything a "secondary issue." Every heresy that has ever existed is demanding a seat at the table.
The fire cleanses. It burns off the dross of negativity. It is what made the Prodigal Son come home. It is what made Jesus the master he was. "he learned obedience from his suffering." The suffering is the fire. It heals if you let it heal you.
No.
According to Peter, it reduces you to ashes just like the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah.
2 Pet 2:6
and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
@@ABC123jd Revelation 20 Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Frustration, anger, fear are eliminated by being purged in the Lake of Fire.
@@pjdelucala Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, meaning Hades will be emptied out and all the dead will be raised. I agree that all those things will be purged, but it's not because God will purify the lost but because he will execute them.
@@pjdelucala The lake of fire represents dying a second time, not purification. Death is also said to be thrown into the lake of fire. Now is death purified or is death ultimately destroyed?
If I remember correctly, Calvin burned other Christians at the stake for disagreeing with him about the Godhead.
wrong
But maybe that is just for the ones who have the Mark of the Beast.
Are you a seventh day Adventist.
I do not find where living soul is used for both man and animals, however I do find in Ecc 3:21 that spirit is used for both man and beast, which I believe is the word used to describe what we refer to as animals. The word animal is not found in the KJV.
Correct, we are breathing creatures, not mini-gods with intrinsic immortality.
It’s why we need a resurrection from the dead.
No, it isn't. They use the word "beast" to mean the exact same thing as animal.
So man has a soul, just not 'an immortal soul'...
@robwagnon6578, you are wrong about that. We are eternal. It is our choice whether we choose heaven or hell for our eternity.
Sounds like sometime I’ve heard before…”You shall surely not die!”
@@tomgarrison5313
You’re quoting Satan’s original lie. God guarded the Tree of Life specifically so that Adam and Eve would not become immortal. By one man’s sin came death to all, how much more so will those by one man reign in life
@@HG-ic8ks ( Satan said that Not God..) God said you shall surely die..❤
@@TheBenevolentDictatorship and to make it even clearer he defined death as returning to dust. Yet somehow the word death now means being tormented for all eternity. It’s so confusing how ECT became a mainstream belief.
So many who are preaching and don't know Jesus.
"So many who are preaching and don't know Jesus." - Are you saying that people who believe in annihilation for the lost are not saved?
@treefellonya Well it's not biblical, let's start there.
@@gordonmarshall3218 Vague. What is "not Biblical"? Are you one who believes that God maintains and sustains an everlasting eternal torture chamber? A follow up question to that is Do you believe that man is immortal...?
@@treefellonya YES.... they are lost since they so easily lie about God's Word. You need to learn sound biblical exegesis and take the whole counsel of God... and leave your impression behind.
What does "everlasting" mean?"“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41
and again from the Lord Jesus Himself "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" vs. 46
"where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:44
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;" Rev 14:11
REPENT and trust what God says.
You must be born again
@@gordonmarshall3218
Yes, yes it is. I’ll take the word of Paul, Jesus, the Early Church Fathers and Martin Luther, Wycliffe, Tyndale, Stott, et al. over yours.
Edward Fudge was a long time member of the Church of Christ which believes that water baptism in essential for salvation. Some evangelicals say that’s faith plus works which doesn’t save. It would be ironic if Fudge wasn’t truly saved and conditional immortality was correct and he’s waiting for resurrection day to be annihilated.