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Why do people do PostDocs? Isn't a PhD enough?
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- Опубліковано 14 сер 2024
- In this video, I share with you why people do postdocs and why sometimes a PhD isn't enough.
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▼ ▽ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - postdoctoral flavours
2:27 - failure
3:56 - hope
5:26 - desperation
7:14 - going abroad
9:34 - building skills
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I did my PhD (in the early 1980's) for fun and right after completing it I joined the public service (Ontario, Canada) as a technocrat. Over the years I was invited by my university friends to give guest lectures and later became an adjunct professor teaching two master's degree courses. Students enjoyed my class because I was teaching from my work experience rather than by "regurgitating" from textbooks. I have also co-authored university textbooks, research papers and conference presentations together with my doctoral supervisor and friends who were tenure-track professors. I see the PhD more as a journey to enrich my life than as a way of getting a job in or outside the university. Don't waste your time on postdocs because the pasture can be much greener outside academia.
Mr.Stapleton you’re a breath of fresh air in this smoggy murky world
Just read Dr. Peter Friedman's "A PhD is Not Enough!" and this advice is all too timely! Great stuff Andrew!
PhD’s from developing countries can benefit from a postdoc in a developed country. It also facilitates immigration
Great idea, poor countries need a brain drain. ;-)
@@-haclong2366 Many people do return back to their home countries. A postdoc stint abroad often makes them more marketable in academic circles back home too
@@-haclong2366 People do things for their own sake, if their own country does not value their knowledge then let them go somewhere else without guilt.
@@zray2937 preach
@@-haclong2366 yes, being "a brain" in a country that is constantly at odds with you is torture
Speaking from someone who recently transitioned from postdoc to industry, I think the ship has long turned -- most postdocs these days are actually envious of folks who made that leap and escaped academia….not the other way around.
I really enjoy your channel and your perspective. I got my PhD in chemical engineering in 1986, and did a highly experimental research topic. Some topics that you may want to discuss:
1) In my program, about 50% of the first year students failed the qualifying exams, so had to go elsewhere. Although this was a terrible experience for them, it was early enough in their graduate career that they could recover. However, the worst thing was to pass your exams, then pass the defense of your proposal, but then fail the defense of your dissertation. That is because you would have spent at least 4 years working on something that didn't get you your degree. I knew two students that this happened to, and it was absolutely crushing. One young lady told me she was suicidal. Maybe your comments on what it is like to go so far in your graduate program, but then fail, would be a good video topic.
2) How to pick the right advisor. My advisor was very wonderful, an eminent person in the field, but I did not know that he had lost that "thing" that motivates professors to do their job. My advice would be to hook up with a younger, energetic advisor that recently got tenure. I know that there are many, many individual professors that would fit my model here. But, that would be my general advice.
3) The pure joy of finishing and going through ceremonies. Maybe it sounds simple, but it really was wonderful to wear my doctoral gowns, get photographed, and join the graduating parade through campus. I fondly remember how all of the PhD graduates were assembled in a big mass, regardless of degree. French literature, Physics, Anthropology, Engineering, Sociology, etc, etc, etc, all together. And we chatted about our disparate, yet so similar experiences doing IT. IT being the thing. The project. The dissertation, which we all just called "D". Ha! Then, the trumpets sounded, and we were all off in procession, en masse, through campus and to the stadium for ceremonies. My advice is don't skip ceremonies. YOU DESERVE IT. YOU WILL REMEMBER AND CHERISH IT>. DO IT.
Uh your experience was 40 years ago lmfao. World has changed quite bit
I actually defended my thesis on zoom and no ceremony due to covid.
you are so spot on here, it hurts - just finished my PhD and I am offered a postDoc position and everything you say resonates with me...the transition phase from academia to industry is hard though ( I am kind of in it now).
I was in grad school in the 70s. I was always targeted toward an academic position. However, when I finished my Ph.D. the market for faculty positions was very tight and competitive. Frankly, my publication record wasn't good enough (only five papers) when I finished my Ph.D. for me to even get interviewed for faculty positions. So I did a post doc to take on new research and allow time for me to build up my publication record. My first postdoc was ended after only a year when my PI died suddenly, so I moved on to a second postdoc. After a year and a half there the funding was ending so I took a job at a national lab, but continued writing up my research while working there as a research chemist. After a couple of years there I finally worked my way up to the top of the group of people applying for faculty positions and got several interviews and finally a job. I did my postdocs to stay in the game and bolster my publication record. I never wanted anything but a faculty position. I was fortunate that my postdoc positions allowed me lots of freedom to carry on my own research and to design the research projects I did for the postdocs. The trick as I see it is to choose your postdoc position well.
The idea of a dissertation and its research based on the work of your supervisor is something that is more prevalent in the STEMs. In social sciences, cognitive sciences, and humanities, candidates work on their own research.
P.S. the reality of the postdoc is as a parking lot to put extra PhDs that cannot find jobs right after graduation. The postdoc allows still competitive candidates to regroup. The postdoc should not be compulsory. Many of of us got into tenure-track jobs without going through postdocs. The postdoc was not prevalent when there were not as many PhDs, and those graduating were easily absorbed by universities into tenure-track positions.
Hey Andy! Do your considerations change if you consider that in some fields (mainly humanities, I'm doubtful a psy Ph.D. candidate in EU) there's no real "industry" to look outside for, when in a Ph.D. path, or postdoc path? How much does the risk grow without that plan, or at least the utility of having a higher degree being considered more? I mean the risk of it bringing you nowhere or hurting your career or financial life, lose time. Thanks for your work.
Excellent youtube. I started my PhD later in life after getting research jobs thay allwed me to design and carry out. Howeer after a break through travel fo many years, that exoerience was forgotten by new peers. So tjat why I tried to pgrade to a PhD. That experience and the phD led to a position as contacted Associate Professor, but abroad. So there are other directions not just a linear treadmill
Thanks. I wasn't completely aware of that set of skills...required.
Got it, don't do a post doc. So is it safe to say then that tenure track professorships are reserved for phds from ivy leagues?
If you want a professorship at an top uni, you will likely need a postdoc at a top uni and a PhD from a top uni. To be honest, a lot of prestigious industry R&D jobs (e.g. IBM Zürich) also require postdoctoral experience.
It's becoming increasingly rare that people get professorships straight out of their PhD. I know a couple of people who have, but those were for teaching and pastoral posts. For research-focussed posts, the chances are practically zero unless you've had a stellar PhD with great publications and are already well-known in your community.
i remember my hi school counsellor. she had masters, bachelors and more than one ph. d..
why?
because school only lasts 9 months. that means she had 3 months off every year to take summer school classes.
everytime she finished a few classes, she could add them to her existing courses and get another degree.
and all her degrees were paid for by the school system. and all her classes were easy education classes.
and every time she got a new degree the school paid her accordingly.
so there are ways to make it monetarily in the education field.
but most people don't do it, and college is a waste of time for most people.
The Pareto Principle at work, a small minority of power users take the majority of grants meant to help people in general to advance in education.
I believe that PhD is a lifestyle not only in academia or industry. Great content Andy.
French dude making a PhD in Denmark here. Your perspective on PIs is frightening (rich old people haha). I have heard a lot about academia's politics (old people obsessed with money or publishing, harassment, exploitation, schoolkids-level feuds between teams) but I've been lucky to always be in labs were the people above me were kind and supportive people. I guess I'm still a PhD student. Anyway, I'll ask my post-doc colleagues about it.
Thank u. This is a move that I’m contemplating so your video was helpful.
Thanks for another useful video. It would be great if you could do a video explaining grants. For example, what do I need money for to do research if I'm already paid by the uni, say as a postdoc, and don't need to buy anything to do the research because I can do it all on my own without new equipment? Do people apply for money regardless to use it on things like conference travel and accommodation? Is it used for buying books? Is there a nonsensical uni kudos element to grant amounts acquired (possibly linked to league tables) or other factors I'm not aware of? If uni kudos is involved, how does the uni benefit from large grants? Do they take a cut like a kind of agent's fee? Please can you explain grants to someone who has never applied for one but might need to in the future - the what, why, how, when, how long, where, and any politics involved? How is it different (if at all) to a research project proposal? How do you know what money you'll need and what you'll need to spend it on? What if during the project you realise you need more? What if you don't need it all - do you give some back at the end? Who gives grants and where can you see lists of grants available? Why do people give away grants - what's in it for them? So many questions! :)
Already applying for studentship in the university am doing masters and this message came the right time....i would wish to get into the industry after my phd....hopefully i'll get
Would love to hear your take on people getting two PhDs (perhaps in separate fields).
I thought about that as well. Seems like doing a second PhD may make more sense especially in complementary fields rather than postdocs. Guess the big drawback is less pay on a PhD vs postdoc.
@@sikaifu5509 From my experience many universities just use postdocs as cheap labor to boost their publication profiles.
@@JohnVianneyPatron my big concern is postdoc seems like you didn't do enough in PhD and now trying to make up for it. So the nice part is you get double or more what you got paid at PhD, but seems like you are stuck in either purgatory or hell (more likely hell). So I'd think the best choice would be to take the 6-8 years to do good research rather than graduate or to take a second PhD to cleanse your poor research (since only your 2nd PhD will be relevant). I wonder if that's something people discuss.
Cool vid, it would be interesting to examine how these requirements in academia change thru history. It seems as academic jobs got scarcer, a lot of placeholder jobs like postdocs had to be invented. In the early days, its likely that a phd would have been enough to start a lab.
Timely and insightful advice. Thanks!
Thank you for sharing insightful content 🙏🏿 🌎
I recently saw and shared a video of Bart Simpson putting on a fake ponytail and doing an impression of graduate students. First he told bookstore employees there is a tenure track professorship at the University of SIKE. Then he put on the ponytail and said "I am a graduate student. I am over 30 years old and I made $600 last year."
Thanks for your advice 🙂
My pleasure 😊
I finished by PhD in 3 years and got a lecturer position, never did a post doc. Is this difficult to do? I am weird?(lol)
Never thought about comparing my situation with others...
I haven't done anything with my PhD yet. After I was done, I wanted to take a break. It was so much so work and draining due to my second committee member. She had me take out chunks of information just to put it back in. I just needed to take a step back when everything was done. I'm beginning to think what is my next step. I don't think it will be in academia for a while since I've heard from a lot of people it is extremely hard to get a position. I'm currently at another university taking a grad certificate program in program evaluation. I promised myself that after this is done I am really finished with taking any other program.
Great content! Thanks
Can you do a video on predoctoral grant funding?
Thank you always!
My old and emeritus Professor of oceanography started his career in 50s with his MSc. Has the quality of MSc and Phd fallen?
Has the quality of MSc and Phd fallen? Answer: definitely "yes" in general but those from top universities have remained extremely high quality.
Love your channel, I’m a medicinal chemistry student from Italy, would you consider bringing a host expert in that field to explain journey possibilities? Thanks
If you can, Make a video on salary range of a PhD graduate.
It varies
Noone enjoys anything having been at it a number of years. I have researched things that interest me with out a phd. I Have the statistics and research skills to due it. I don't need to be paid to do it and with that it is not expensive.
If a person is working in the sector and will continue to work in the sector, why is MSc after BSc not enough and why can't he leave academia and do a doctorate on top of that, or even a post-doc ? Doing both doctoral and postdoctoral training will be a waste of time and resources for a person who will continue to work in the sector.
Of course, the situation is different if there are plans to transfer to the academy.
Thanks for this video! 2 questions that were triggered for me:
1) can these skills in the post doc be transferred to an industry position? Say applying research grant (?) which in an industry context would be writing from the R&D department of the company to the financial department the justification why more research needs to be done?
2) I’m doing research with Virtual Reality based technology which as of lately has started to gain traction and so I’m wondering if it would be wise of me to pursue a post doc for the reason of allowing VR to be more “mature” as technology..
Lastly.. 3) I have this idea in my head, correct or wrong, that being a guest researcher at say an Ivy League school in the US where they do research on VR in similar (but not really..) the same research context, that it’s an extremely good merit, seen from an industry perspective. Do people in the industry give a crap about me having done research at Stanford, Harvard etc? My professor who had been at one of these universities said that she was not “impressed”. However, I want to build the best conditions for myself, whether I stay in academia or pursue industry career.
Thanks in advance :)
@0:44 Bless YOU!
What is the salary of PhD professor in Australia. Good information about post dock. I am waiting, please reply.
Thanks.
$80,000 a year
Is it a good idea to join industry in any available position before defense?
If you've done a PhD and you havent yet figured things out already but you're still eaiting for things to come to you, than you weren't ready.
Thank you so much for this! So relatable. The worst part of PhD studies to me was having to explain to people who are not in academia "what am I gonna do after PhD". Like:
- oh, so you're going to be an academic?
- it's called a post-doc
- [silent look of misunderstanding]
- it's like working on a scientific project at uni for a limited time, 3 years or shorter
- so, like a PhD?
- ....
Wow that was the worst part? No wonder PHDs are so commonplace now .
@@ultravioletiris6241 like I said - to me specifically (so, a silly thing which is just annoying). So I was quite lucky in the PhD world - sadly, I've met lots of ECRs with really serious problems (being harassed etc.) To them obv my 'problem' is petty and that is understandable.
Good stuff
Appreciate it
Am confused..dont know wat to do after phd
Hope I could connect with someone to deal with the ongoing pH.D drama
Will be there better system of academia instead of current system?
I would definitely do the easy postdoc if it was offered to me 😅 The real world scares the shits out of me
When I saw this video I had to doublecheck it wasn't the Beard Growing Pro channel
Cheers
Ok I don’t get it. Its cheaper to hire an RA in Australia than a post-doc
Postdoc can work without teaching or taking classes the whole time and generally comes in with directly relevant knowledge.
@@Nukatha in Australia RAs too, they do not need to teach or do anything else other than researching, they may lack the knowledge, depending how long they have been working as an RA
You should try to get on a popular podcast like Joe Rogan or Chris Williamson.
Don't do anything. Let's enjoy life as it is in tha simple way.
A+
"everyone wants that". That's a bit of an exaggeration. When I did my PhD, I had almost complete freedom in choosing my topic of research (in biomedical engineering).
Ph D is already too much for anything but pure academia tops.
Actually i was looking for postdoctoral position but i found out it is a tramp, they said need junior doctor graduated then asked for various things to be experienced in .They need people to work for lower salary with experience knowledge. I communicated with one university, arguing that is not correct since postdoctoral position doesn't mean to experience otherwise better to work as professor assistant. They could not answer only by saying good luck with postions with less experience. I shocked as this very bad manner in academic field. Unfortunately they changed the terms according to thier need.
let me be done with phd o lord...i wont even look back to academia....god knows how i ended up here, its such a trap. i will be out in 3 yrs tops!! no pd for me
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Postdoc is for PhD graduates who are not good enough to get proper jobs in academia. It helps them to build their academic profiles needed to land a tenured job.
I think that depends on the country : in the UK, you would be very fortunate indeed to get a position in academia without a postdoctoral experience.
That is just not true. Many universities in Europe have bylaws by which only the people who have completed their Postdocs (and usually the provision is added that the postdoc needs to be performed outside of their home country) are eligible to apply for the entry level academia position of junior professor or junior researcher. So please don't spread nonsense.
Lol
@@francishunt562 to hell with academia... go into the real world
Simple answer. Some people will do all they can to avoid real work.
What do you mean “real work”, you dont think being a researcher is not a “real work”?
@@becavallazzi the vast majority of so called research in universities including probably over 90 percent of PhDs are a complete waste of time and at times a sort of avoidance of real work. 😳
@@last_samurai6690 ok first of all I highly doubt you have any statistic to back this up. Secondly, this is definitely not true for STEM research, especially in developed nations. Not sure where you come from but here where I am most of the science in all universities (STEM field) is definitely not a waste of time (cant say anything about humanities but highly doubts 90% or over of their research are useless
@@becavallazzi stem? Maybe take away E in the Stem. There is little ROI in pursuing a PhD in engineering vs joining the workforce. Actually PhD has more value in developing countries. Then let's talk science, shall we... how many PhD in chemistry, biology, physics, maths, etc get better playing job outside academia? And here we are talking postdocs? Of all innovations since Louis Pasteur, please name one that was done with postdocs researchers. Just one please? Of all big companies I know of, only Google was found by phds, still not postdoc? What the F is postdoc? Come on mate. As for Liberal arts, don't get me started.
Shots fired 😳