Fair. But slow speed is only helpful in getting one or two shots off first. After that, the Super Hornet would be too slow to recover speed and the Viper would dominate. So the Blues would have to hope they’re reeeeeally good shots.
@@aerospacehorizons F-16 would likely dominate in gunfight, but the F/A-18 would dominate in a fox 2 fight as it has a better instantaneous turn rate and is amazing in a 1 circle fight. 2 circle fights aren't very viable in a fox 2 fight because you need to jam the WEZ.
If you could clone a pilot and have him be proficient in both aircraft the one in the f-16 would win because of the maneuverability top speed and range of the f-16
@@aerospacehorizonsnot necessarily. I’ve been told (If memory serves it was a former blue angel that told me) that the tour on the flight demo team is a neutral tour. Meaning it doesn’t help or hurt you career wise but it does remove you from an active squadron where you gain tactical proficiency. In the Navy you have certain gates to hit. By the time you finish a flight demo tour you are a senior lieutenant or Lt. Commander. The next steps are Department Head or Command (CO/XO). At that point the focus shifts from flying to running the squadron.
Probably not. Remember that while the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels are fantastic pilots, depending on how long they've been in the team, they're Acrobatics pilots first and combat pilots second which means in a combat tour they'd be outclassed by the sole combat flying pilots. As much as Hollywood would have you believe otherwise, modern dogfighting and long range aerial combat are a lot less flashy lol
@@roji556 It is not like students have one instructor the whole way. First they will be in a piston aircraft also used by civilians learning basics of flight, then move onto trainer jets to learn high speed flight, then will get into combat tactics/maneuvers. With more training once get to the eventual type assigned to.
@@roji556 wrong. They are fighter pilots first and always have been. Aerobatics are an important part of dogfighting. Many of these maneuvers were born out of dogfighting. Loop, Immelmann, split S, and barrel roll are ALL basic fighter maneuvers. We learn these first and then use them as we learn to dogfight. The Blue Angels biggest obstacle is proficiency at carrier landings. Every Carrier aviator does “work ups” in the months prior to deployment where they develop and maintain a high level of proficiency.
I know a former Blue Angel avionics guy who was with the team on 9/11. They tried this in order to contribute to CAP efforts over CONUS. They actually tried and realized that the lot 10 Hornets they had at the time would require a depot team to reconfigure and update the jets. The juice wasn’t worth the squeeze by a long shot and they quickly dismissed the idea.
The Air Force in the late 80s showed that they could get the Thunderbirds combat-ready in 72 hours with one exception: they'd be going into battle with their pretty airshow paint including screaming red radomes. The big limitation is getting them repainted. I figured that it would be a real challenge to install and op-check the M61 gun and ammo drum (show birds remove those and put ballast in their place), but that wasn't a big deal for the F-16s. I think now (not 100% positive) that the AF went the same way as the Navy and stopped telling people that they could be flying combat in 72 hours if needed. Same as the Angels, just send the guys to a combat unit if the world situation really comes down to that.
For both teams the aircraft are hanged and the pilots would get new front line birds had some T Bird friends when I lived in Las Vegas and they told me that technically they could do a 72 hour turnaround it would be cheaper and easier to just park the plane as is you have to pull the smoke generator replace it with the gun re configure the stick as it is switched to make it easier to use replace electrical relays for armament pilled for safety and of course repaint this is all depot work and the planes are older then what front line uses plus the stress from all air shows is more stress then Frontline planes grow though
As to the paint job... I know there's multiple reasons why they might need to repaint them to match the rest of the fleet... but can you imagine how cool it would be to see a Blue Angel or Thunderbird formation in combat with that livery? It would probably be a really great morale boost for other US/NATO pilots in theater.
@@aerospacehorizons does paint even affect radar cross sections? because in a BVR fight visual livery would probably be irrelevant i can imagine it now, after half an hour of lobbing BVR missiles over a hundred kilometers away and the chaotic notching and defending against said missiles, you get to IR and All Aspect missile range and a bright yellow and navy blue speck is what your front radar is trying to lock onto, and as you pass by each other the blue and yellow plane dances along your left wing and gives you a wiggle and does a weird maneuver then slams an AIM-9 down your tailpipe
@@rrenkrieg7988 I think it would matter MORE in a dogfight. If you can’t see your enemy, you’ve lost. There is a huge competitive disadvantage to bright blue and gold or white and red paint. There is no ability to hide or “lose them”. The enemy will always know where you are. 😂
@@orangequill1645 the Blue Angels blue is way too dark to blend in. I find it way easier to spot the Blues from a distance than the Thunderbirds. The birds are closer to the “haze grey” of most fleet jets.
Cool to hear that the Thunderbirds actually tried this in 1988 resulting in 27 hours. I was in the AF ROTC a few years before that. One of my instructors had been on the Thunderbird's maintenance team. She had said that the planes could be combat ready, not including paint, in 24 hours assuming the needed parts were readily available.
Years ago, I was the parts guy for a squadron of deployed '16s. A memorable experience was when a certain component broke, and it was up to me to get another. The only other serviceable item in the enterprise was in the Thunderbirds mobility spares kit. Every day for a week, I'm on the phone "release me that part"; "Ship me that part"; "I need that part"... NOPE. The order of priority seemed to be 1)Air Force One, 2) Thunderbirds, 3) Combat operations. We did get a part as it came off the refurb depot, but DANG.
Being in the military I learned this, if you're having to resort to using the people and equipment who usually don't see frontline combat, something has gone horribly wrong.
@@timbrwolf1121 Not necessarily. In a time of total war, it could be seen as wasteful to have experienced pilots serving in an aerobatics team when they could be in an operation fighter squadron instead.
One of the F-16s I worked on when I was an assistant crew chief in the USAF (421st TFS out of Hill AFB) *was* a former Thunderbirds jet. It still had some of the extra plumbing left in it for the smoke, and many of the external parts had been polished when it was on the team and were really easy to keep clean and nice looking. Also my supervisor had been a crew chief in the Thunderbirds and showed me a lot of the little differences and had some amazing memorabilia. I still have one of the hubcaps we flew on the plane with a hand-painted Black Widows squadron patch on it.
Worked on the former F4 Phantom Thunderbirds at Nellis AFB in the 70s. There were 2 or 3 of them that went to the weapons school fleet when the unit transitioned to T38s. But they did not have any weapons capabilities, carrying only radios. I don't believe any of them were ever made fully operational before they were finally retired. You could always spot one the with their highly polished burner cans and and intake accents after they were returned to the Vietnam camo paint scheme. What they could do is outperform their sisters. They weighed much less.
Very cool! Thanks for your service! Do you know why they were never made fully operational? Were they low rate production models? I imagine times were different then with an active war going on.
@@aerospacehorizons They probably found them suitable as they were for towing target darts. Also new F4Es that had been built for Iran were being diverted to the US inventory as production was beginning to wind down.
I think that a critical detail of their ability to switch to combat roles is the scenario in which it happens. If we are at war and need every plane then yeah, the pilots go to the training squadron(s), train back up to combat readiness, and switch jets. If we just got invade and we don't have the months needed to retain then you slap weapons on the planes and the pilots take them up, because a rusty combat pilot is better than no combat pilot.
Im now vividly imagining the Blues dogfighting UFOs over NAS Pensacola... hell, might as well wake up the old warbirds in the museum at that point, lmao!
I'm glad you're excited about this also- I know about the gun removal, inverted fuel pump, smoke system, stick spring, etc. But what are the numbers and performance in weight reduction and cleanness from the fleet to Blue? Do they keep the radar for CG? How about an in depth from the maint/maintainer side about the conversion on both the -16/18?
I would think 72 hours for Navy pilots would not be feasible. The first 72 hours might be enough for simulator time before going to a base to do field carrier landing practice and after that going to the carrier to the qualification. I think realistically it would take a month before they could be deployed. But that could be shortened if the sh!t really hit the fan.
Yep! It would have to be a real break glass in case of emergency kind of scenario to get it done in 72 hours… waiving every protocol and procedure the Navy has. Thanks for watching.
Really enjoyed the video. A Blue Angel pilot told me it would take months for a pilot to be Combat Certified to fly in combat again. Especially for pilots who have flown the #5 Jet who would be on their 3rd year. I assume it would be the same for the T-Birds.
Have done a lot of photo work with the Blues over the years. The Legacies were REALLY BAD by the end. I was asked not to publish any photos showing the issues the airframes had but trust me, they were beat up. Went drinking one night with some of the maintainers, they said they didn't know how they were going to get 6 jets in the air for the next show. They already had to swap into #7 during the performance when #2 took a schvitz. Luckily the Supers all came from Test and Eval squadrons and VFA-106/122 which are training squadrons, so they were pretty decent.
In the 80s, the RAF had a policy to put Red Arrow Hawks into combat if WW3 ever kicked off during that time. The main RAF fighters at that point were the F-4 Phantom, an increasing number Tornado F3's and a dwindling number of Lightnings. The idea was that if the Soviets sent Badgers, Bears, Bisons, Backfires and Blinders over the N. Sea, it may be done with fighter escort from Su-27 Flankers. In close combat, Phantoms and Tornadoes would be at a disadvantage. Hence 72 Hawk trainers were wired to carry Sidewinders incl those of the Red Arrows.
There's a Blue Angels memorial somewhat near me with a real F/A-18. Apparently, it can also be turned into a combat aircraft. I doubt it'd take 72 hours though, more like weeks to months. Still pretty cool.
The SKYBLAZER acrobatic team consisted of WW II fighter jocks flying active combat ready f-84's later f-86's. They flew patrol along the East German border with full combat ordinance. Then flew the same planes on the weekends at airshow throughout Europe.
Yes, Back when in 88-92 while I was with the 57EMS at Nellis, I was on the mobility team if needed to deploy with the T-Birds if they were mobilized or needed.
@@aerospacehorizons I'm thinking he was on a list where they would pull in MOS's that isn't used (needed or limited on) on the demo teams...like weapons/loading and ?? from training school duties....
@@andrewj9831 Pretty much. I was a Parachute Survival Euipment Specialist, packed the ACESII chute. Back then the T-Birds relied on us to pack the chutes for the ejection seats. If they were ever Mobilized we would deploy with the Squadron to maintain them. Very rare that it would happen, but during the lead up to Desert Storm they did atleast brushed the dust of the idea and at started making sure logistically they could do it. Realistically the AF would have to be pretty desperate to try and retrofit a few F-16s. :) But it was fun at the time.
The one scenario I could see this happening is a 911 type scenario where armed Blue Angle/Thunderbird patrols over major cities could be used a a psychological boost to a shaken population.
I’d imagine there are enough F16s in use that if the ones in use by the Thunderbirds need to be used in a war, well, things would be going pretty badly. This might be true for the Blue Angels, too.
There is a lot of theory in what you just said, but from someone that was in the USAF and worked on fighter jets, most likely stuff would really have to hit the fan first. I am talking like alien attacks, and or WWIII. They would then most likely disband the teams, and send the pilots to actual fighter squadrons and get the combat training the need there. And they most likely would do the same for the aircraft maintainers. And if any of the planes were actually combat worthy they most likely would have a depot team convert the aircraft for a combat role. It just doesn't make much real world sense to try and turn a demonstration team into a fighter squadron.
Another issue is that at least with the Tbirds, the pilots aren’t all F-16 pilots. Yes, they are all fighter pilots but they only have a Basic Qual in the Viper. They come from across the Air Force and may only have a Mission Qual in their assigned jet such as a F-15C, F-15E, F-22, F-35. A-10. It would take months to qual them in an aircraft and for a mission they never learned to employ. In reality it be much more realistic to send them back to their original weapon system.
All USMC pilots for the Blues would also have this issue. The USMC doesn’t fly the Super Hornet and their jet pilots need to get trained in it to be on the team.
Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that the Thunderbirds don't have their own specialized cargo aircraft, like the Blue Angels Fat Albert. And it's also interesting they use something like a C-130, an Airforce and Marine Corps plane, instead of something like a C-2 Greyhound, the C-130's equivalent in the navy
Given that the Thunderbirds are based at Nellis AFB and that base regularly takes part in actual combat missions with it hosting Red Flag I think it is more feasible for them to be ready in 72 hours. As far as the Blues go do I think it is possible of course, however, given that NAS Pensacola is primarily a training base, it would be harder to equip their jets as quickly, 5 days would be a better timeframe for their jets!
What difference does it make where their home base is???? Yes, before the start of the show season they are at Nellis and Pensacola, but they spend weeks fine-tuning their airshow routine....not combat techniques. Once the air show season starts, they are out on the "road" (or air as it was), flying from airshow to airshow around the country (or around the world). They don't come anywhere near to home base until the end of the season or if an airshow is close to NV or FL. If a war beaks out and the USAF or USN really, really really needs the BA and TB jets. The jets will be re-painted and re-configured for combat and sent out to the fleet for use by other combat-ready pilots. But, the BA and TB pilots would not go with the jets.
I first saw the BLUES flying the A-s and the THUNDERCHICKENS (usaf joke) flying the F-4s. i went into the USAF AND HAD FUN in a sense and traveled. th NAVY AND THE AIR FORCE are the 2 best services to go to for tech jobs. no im not a recruiter, i love to talk about the military. ARMY BRAT. THANKS for the video.
I think your conclusion is fairly accurate, but just getting these planes to where they are needed would take more than 72 hours. Moving fighters anywhere requires a fairly large logistical trail of tanker and cargo aircraft. The Thunderbirds usually land to refuel when moving from show to show as tanker aircraft are at a premium. The pilots would need to get current on combat tasks as mentioned. The T-Birds and Blue Angels excel at their primary mission, recruiting.
Yep, I realized my framing was a little inaccurate. I think they state 72 hours to be ready for war. Not 72 hours to the front lines. That being said, 72 hours in any sense is certainly a stretch regardless unless it is a true emergency.
@@aerospacehorizons it was a good video. I’m in the Air Force and work at Air Mobility Command, tanker and cargo aircraft headquarters. I even flew a support mission for the T-Birds when I was actively flying. I see and manage their support aircraft, which is surprisingly a small amount. They are a completely professional top notch organization that excels in showmanship, recruiting, and public relations. Trash haulers (cargo aircraft) see them as Prima Donnas and poke fun at them, but in all honesty it’s rooted in jealousy. I’ve heard the claim they can go to war in 72 hours and I’m skeptical. I think this is just something they claim to justify their existence. I don’t know much about the Blue Angles since I’m Air Force, but I think the Angles put on a better show. I’ve been to dozens of air shows throughout my career.
@@aerospacehorizons I think your video is a pretty accurate representation of the reality. The pilots on both teams would need recurrent training on combat tactics and in the case of the Blues, carrier ops. The Thunderbirds jets could be converted back to combat status. The Blues LRIP Rhinos, not so much. The 72 hour number is far more theoretical than practical. For the personnel or material assets of either team to be called up for combat, things would have to have gotten pretty sideways.
I like both teams but obviously it’s simply not true. The only way those birds and those pilots see war is if everything has gone bad. Even then at “72 hours” they are not combat ready.
The downside to living near an Air Force base is that the only Blue Angel I ever get to see is the retired F/A-18B of #7 at the Davis Monthan Boneyard.
the biggsst issue is they would need to repaint their aircraft as fast as possible which takes time to do properly. otherwise they would need to use other aircraft. unless they would fighting on the home front then they wouldn't need to repaint the aircraft with camouflage. there is a very good reason why aircraft have camouflage.
Remember fit is not just the pilots that are part of those teams there are a large number of support personnel that are just as important that would also be called up if needed.
Absolutely! I touched on this a bit but clearly not enough. I imagine in a hypothetical situation like this it would be all hands on deck and those folks would CRUSH it. They do so much to keep those old jets in the air already.
The T-Birds and The Angels get the most worn ouut equipment in the inventory. Planes on their last legs. Most people don't know that. Perhaps the pilots could 'convert' but the planes... not so much.
Personally I think if we had to bring either team to combat Keep the paint and squadron together but attach them to another squadron. Namely due to the fact that these teams are already very well coordinated and are used to flying with each other.
The pilots could the planes have been modified and a configured for demonstrations and they are usually airframes at the end of their useful life and may not handle combat really well but the pilots could go fly frontline fleet aircraft and increase the sortie interval but it would have to be a very desperate situation
It would be cool if either team was actually sent to combat that they wouldn't be reassigned to different squadrons, but were kept together and that they didn't repaint their aircraft.
Them staying together is probably likely, unless they were reassigned as training officers - which is probable given how skilled they are. Yes they should absolutely keep the paint… even if it’s not the best camouflage! 😂 thanks for watching!
I think its time both teams got the F22 upgrade since they are currently being deployed for opportunities and their capabilities are becoming more well-known
There are a ton of reasons why the thunderbirds will never fly the F-22. Maybe I’ll make a video about them! The Blue Angels are Navy/Marine Corps. Neither service flies the F-22.
@@aerospacehorizons I see. I was under the influence they made verifications of the F22 for both. Then again I do have memory issues and may have been mixed up with a different aircraft. But still, it would be awesome if they did
@@aerospacehorizons I remember now, lol. Its tough for me to remember these kinda things correctly unless its information I use regularly. I use to play jet sims and thats were I learned most of my knowledge about fighters. These oast few years the only fighters I've been focusing on are tge ones I make in Space Engineers
one thing that help the Thunderbirds. In 1988 to do that with the weapons was those jets where block 30 and fairly new jets and the team got them brand new for some reason I was to say they took all that stuff of jets and still had the hardware on hand
@@aerospacehorizons Thunderbirds when to F16 after the crash of 4 T38 at one time losing most of the team in one day and keep in mind in the 80s that was a new jet to the air force. There was no old F16 in the system
@@fastone942 looks like it was as new when the Thunderbirds started flying them as the F-18 was when the Blues started flying it. As I mentioned in the video, the Blues flew low rate initial production models to not take "new" jets from the fleet. I wonder if the Thunderbirds did something similar or if they truly got "new" F-16s.
@@aerospacehorizons I am not aware that any F-16s, even the early model jets that first equipped the team in 1983 were ever truly factory-new. I remember distinctly that this did happen with the F-105s back in the 60s. I have a book with some photos of the pilots inspecting their Thuds on the assembly line at Republic. As for the tail numbers currently flying on the TB team, I believe they all came from operational active duty, ANG or AFRC units and were converted to the demonstration role by the team. As Block 52 airplanes, they could certainly be converted back to combat status.....just not likely in 72 hours.
@@kevinmadore1794 You seem to have a lot of knowledge about the T-Birds aircraft. Is that from professional experience or just tracking it from afar? Always looking for reliable sources to inform these discussions :)
Im enlisted in the navy and our old CO of our fighter squadron Cdr bryan recently just transferred to become the new CO of the Blue Angels. He’s a good man, everyone who I’ve asked said they also loved him. I believe he’s training right now for stunts and whatever else they do there. But tldr: yes they could and I’m sure they could be very effective 😂
Pushing for a mission. In 1986 my ship was in Subic Bay and at morning quarters we were told that even though one engine was out we would be get underway in 8 hours. One hour later we were told we would be getting underway in 4 hours. Two hours after quarters we were told we were getting underway in 2 hours. At three hours after quarters we were taking in all lines and the engine had been installed far enough that the engineers could get it running in another 24 hours. This was the day President Marcos fled the Philippines and depending on how he fled we were to escort him or refuel his helicopter.
Yes they could do it in 72 hrs. Not completly sure but they would either each be sent where needed to fill vacancies. But most likely folded into an airwing. Weather they would be given a new sqaudren designation or not, i dont know. But they would never fly i. They angels/falcons paint scheams because enemy pilots would target them because of there rep. Falcons would be easier no carrier quals like u mentioned. But thats still not a big deal. Every navy pilot has to reqaulify when there sqaudren arrives at a ship for deployment. Takes a couple of days for the whole airwing. So not a big deal.
1984\85 was part of the 430th "Tigers" Squadron, At that time "technically" Thunderbirds jets belonged to us, normal squadron would be 3 flights of 8 jets for a squadron of 24 jets. we only had 16 jets F16 A/B Block 10/15. our sister squadrons had a full squadron of 24 jets. This was either the first or second year with the F-16s. They had lost 4 pilots in t-38s in 1982. This may have been a one time deal to furnish them with F-16's. Except for paint, those F-16's, Pilots and Maint crews would have easily been moved down the flightline to us. Here is the trick, Those planes would have become Hanger Queens till they could be painted. You always rotated planes for parts. To keep its contracted monthly flight hours for the jet, you would pull another plane in for maintenance, and pull it parts to get the previous plane flying so it gets its hours for the month. this was 1984 \ 85 and the squadron does not exist anymore.
Question, at 5:13 why do all these flags appear on the plane? I know for a fact a bunch of those have a tiny air force if any, let alone having f-16's.
If the Air Force or Navy sent the Thunder Birds or Blue Angels to war, they should leave them in their demo team livery like an Ace Combat game to scare the be-jesus out of people. (This comment is 90% sarcasm)
And the worst part about this is those named squadrons tend to come late into the fight. That means other pilots have already weakened or screwed over your air defense. Making it less likely you'll take them out.
I am by no means an expert but I love these planes and I love to learn about them from afar. So to the point.. no the pilots cannot just slot back into a front line fighter pilot role. The type of practice and coordination needed to fly in formation just feet or even inches from each other is completely different, both physically and mentally, from combat flying. The physically different being you absolutely do not want to be buttoned up and predictable in the way you maneuver in combat if you wish to stay alive. It would take weeks and maybe months to reprogram their reflexes back into combat mode. Are they trained and capable, yes but it would take time to get back into combat mode
They are flying display planes only. They are not armed and I don’t believe they can be unless they go through a major upgrade which would take time and effort. They are needed as there are plenty of combat ready F16 and F/A18 already.
This was done once in 1963! Definitely possible, but it was deemed too impractical given the space it takes up on deck. simpleflying.com/us-navy-c130-hercules-aircraft-carrier-landing-story/
While I definitely think pilots and ground crew could switch to combat in 72 hours I would think most of their equipment would be switched to the most current and only military focused equipment. Even then I would think they would need advisors and people there watching them and helping
The max a pilot is away from normal flying is 3 years, the amount of flying they had to do to become proficient enough to make the team is very very high. So I disagree that a demo pilot couldn't just hop into a grey jet and go to work, especially since they are likely to go back to the same type. Carrier quals is mostly a certification aspect, they fly a carrier approach almost ever time they land. I'd also like your source on the T-birds getting new F-16s, it was always my understanding that all the block 50 were prior squadron birds, I've never heard of them getting new planes, just hand me downs.
Hi, thanks for watching! Appreciate your insight. I agree it would be a pretty easy jump back into a grey jet of the same type. I do think there would be at least some training (albeit light) to get back up to speed on weapons systems stuff. As for carrier quals - in an emergency I imagine this requirement could be loosened. They’re fighter pilots - they’ll figure it out! For new F-16s, it’s talked about here: sierrahotel.net/blogs/news/warbird And for the block 52: www.hill.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/398165/hill-delivers-final-block-52s-to-thunderbirds-one-year-ahead-of-schedule/ Reading it back, it seems it’s a little ambiguous if the 52s were new, or upgraded. But the first article states the jet used for the 72 hour test “originally came to the team from the factory (I don’t know that date) painted in Thunderbird colors”. I’ve heard that elsewhere too - just don’t have the sources in front of me. So it seems they have in the past at least received brand new aircraft.
@@aerospacehorizonsit says all there jets were upgraded from block 32s to block 52s meaning they upgraded an old airframe. None of there jets were delivered from Lockheed.
@@aerospacehorizons Its not really that big of deal. The team did receive 'new' jets, as in new capabilities, just not new air frames. The last F- 16 delivered new in the United States was in 2005, in the Block 52 configuration.
Correct. None of the jets the Thunderbirds are currently flying were delivered to the squadron factory-new. They are combat jets, derived from active duty, ANG or AFRC units, which were converted to the air demonstration role by the team. Unlike the Blue Angels LRIP jets, the T-Birds Block 52s could be made ready for combat.....although from a practical standpoint, just not in 72 hours.
I LOVED READING A BOOK IN HIGHSCHOOL BACK IN 1991 CALLED WINGMAN. IT HAS TO DO WITH A POSTAPOCALPTIC TIME AFTER WWIII AND FIGHTER PLANES RULED THE SKIES. THE MAIN CHARACTER FIGHTER PILOT AND FORMER THUNDERBIRDS PILOT WAS THE MAD MAX OF THE SKIES. GREAT BOOK!
Don't underestimate maintainers. We have done so much for so long with so little that we are qualified to do just about anything with just about nothing.
These cats don’t fly an air show for our enemies. They fly an entirely different way in combat and would most likely be integrated into other squadrons than fly as a team.
Was really hoping this was going to be a breakdown of the Blue Angels dogfighting the Thunderbirds. God knows the Air Force and Navy have enough beef.
That’d be cool! Sadly, as much as I love the Blues, I think the F-16 beats the Super Hornet in a dogfight any day of the week. Thanks for watching!
@@aerospacehorizonsNot in slow speed though.
Fair. But slow speed is only helpful in getting one or two shots off first. After that, the Super Hornet would be too slow to recover speed and the Viper would dominate. So the Blues would have to hope they’re reeeeeally good shots.
@@aerospacehorizons F-16 would likely dominate in gunfight, but the F/A-18 would dominate in a fox 2 fight as it has a better instantaneous turn rate and is amazing in a 1 circle fight. 2 circle fights aren't very viable in a fox 2 fight because you need to jam the WEZ.
If you could clone a pilot and have him be proficient in both aircraft the one in the f-16 would win because of the maneuverability top speed and range of the f-16
Given how much more they spend on technique, if they went anywhere in a war, it seem more likely they would be instructors on their flight platforms.
A lot of them end up that way after leaving the team, so yeah, makes sense!
@@aerospacehorizonsnot necessarily. I’ve been told (If memory serves it was a former blue angel that told me) that the tour on the flight demo team is a neutral tour. Meaning it doesn’t help or hurt you career wise but it does remove you from an active squadron where you gain tactical proficiency. In the Navy you have certain gates to hit. By the time you finish a flight demo tour you are a senior lieutenant or Lt. Commander. The next steps are Department Head or Command (CO/XO). At that point the focus shifts from flying to running the squadron.
Probably not. Remember that while the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels are fantastic pilots, depending on how long they've been in the team, they're Acrobatics pilots first and combat pilots second which means in a combat tour they'd be outclassed by the sole combat flying pilots.
As much as Hollywood would have you believe otherwise, modern dogfighting and long range aerial combat are a lot less flashy lol
@@roji556 It is not like students have one instructor the whole way. First they will be in a piston aircraft also used by civilians learning basics of flight, then move onto trainer jets to learn high speed flight, then will get into combat tactics/maneuvers. With more training once get to the eventual type assigned to.
@@roji556 wrong. They are fighter pilots first and always have been. Aerobatics are an important part of dogfighting. Many of these maneuvers were born out of dogfighting. Loop, Immelmann, split S, and barrel roll are ALL basic fighter maneuvers. We learn these first and then use them as we learn to dogfight. The Blue Angels biggest obstacle is proficiency at carrier landings. Every Carrier aviator does “work ups” in the months prior to deployment where they develop and maintain a high level of proficiency.
I know a former Blue Angel avionics guy who was with the team on 9/11. They tried this in order to contribute to CAP efforts over CONUS. They actually tried and realized that the lot 10 Hornets they had at the time
would require a depot team to reconfigure and update the jets. The juice wasn’t worth the squeeze by a long shot and they quickly dismissed the idea.
The Air Force in the late 80s showed that they could get the Thunderbirds combat-ready in 72 hours with one exception: they'd be going into battle with their pretty airshow paint including screaming red radomes. The big limitation is getting them repainted. I figured that it would be a real challenge to install and op-check the M61 gun and ammo drum (show birds remove those and put ballast in their place), but that wasn't a big deal for the F-16s.
I think now (not 100% positive) that the AF went the same way as the Navy and stopped telling people that they could be flying combat in 72 hours if needed. Same as the Angels, just send the guys to a combat unit if the world situation really comes down to that.
For both teams the aircraft are hanged and the pilots would get new front line birds had some T Bird friends when I lived in Las Vegas and they told me that technically they could do a 72 hour turnaround it would be cheaper and easier to just park the plane as is you have to pull the smoke generator replace it with the gun re configure the stick as it is switched to make it easier to use replace electrical relays for armament pilled for safety and of course repaint this is all depot work and the planes are older then what front line uses plus the stress from all air shows is more stress then Frontline planes grow though
As to the paint job... I know there's multiple reasons why they might need to repaint them to match the rest of the fleet... but can you imagine how cool it would be to see a Blue Angel or Thunderbird formation in combat with that livery? It would probably be a really great morale boost for other US/NATO pilots in theater.
It would be incredible. But I bet the pilots would rather be alive than shot down in such a non-combat friendly livery. Thanks for watching!
@@aerospacehorizons does paint even affect radar cross sections? because in a BVR fight visual livery would probably be irrelevant
i can imagine it now, after half an hour of lobbing BVR missiles over a hundred kilometers away and the chaotic notching and defending against said missiles, you get to IR and All Aspect missile range and a bright yellow and navy blue speck is what your front radar is trying to lock onto, and as you pass by each other the blue and yellow plane dances along your left wing and gives you a wiggle and does a weird maneuver then slams an AIM-9 down your tailpipe
@@rrenkrieg7988 I think it would matter MORE in a dogfight. If you can’t see your enemy, you’ve lost. There is a huge competitive disadvantage to bright blue and gold or white and red paint. There is no ability to hide or “lose them”. The enemy will always know where you are. 😂
@@aerospacehorizons Tbf if it was Daytime in a dogfight and not very cloudy the blue would somewhat blend in
@@orangequill1645 the Blue Angels blue is way too dark to blend in. I find it way easier to spot the Blues from a distance than the Thunderbirds. The birds are closer to the “haze grey” of most fleet jets.
Cool to hear that the Thunderbirds actually tried this in 1988 resulting in 27 hours. I was in the AF ROTC a few years before that. One of my instructors had been on the Thunderbird's maintenance team. She had said that the planes could be combat ready, not including paint, in 24 hours assuming the needed parts were readily available.
Seems like she was correct!
Years ago, I was the parts guy for a squadron of deployed '16s. A memorable experience was when a certain component broke, and it was up to me to get another. The only other serviceable item in the enterprise was in the Thunderbirds mobility spares kit. Every day for a week, I'm on the phone "release me that part"; "Ship me that part"; "I need that part"... NOPE. The order of priority seemed to be 1)Air Force One, 2) Thunderbirds, 3) Combat operations. We did get a part as it came off the refurb depot, but DANG.
Haha! I’ve heard there used to be a slight diva reputation amongst the birds. :) Thanks for watching!
It would feel like Ace Combat to see the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels dogfighting in the skies of war.
Those damned Belkans
Happy you talked about the thunderbirds for once (:
Ha! Gotta check my biases! :) Glad you enjoyed - and I’ll keep that in mind. Hopefully I can get one or two of them on a video soon!
Fat Albert!!! Sustainment and Logistics.... that's what wins wars! SFMF!
Ain’t that the truth. Thanks for watching! I’ve got tons more really cool Fat Albert stuff coming so stay tuned.
Nice video, thanks. Especially Thunderbirds’ photos with armaments was quite cool!
Thanks for watching!
Being in the military I learned this, if you're having to resort to using the people and equipment who usually don't see frontline combat, something has gone horribly wrong.
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer. We are pretty f*cked if it is needed. 😂
@@timbrwolf1121 Not necessarily. In a time of total war, it could be seen as wasteful to have experienced pilots serving in an aerobatics team when they could be in an operation fighter squadron instead.
Nah I don’t think so
@CherryColaWizard they drive recruitment and increase morale which are much more important than a handful of pilots.
Not true
Fantastic V-CAST! :-)
One of the F-16s I worked on when I was an assistant crew chief in the USAF (421st TFS out of Hill AFB) *was* a former Thunderbirds jet. It still had some of the extra plumbing left in it for the smoke, and many of the external parts had been polished when it was on the team and were really easy to keep clean and nice looking. Also my supervisor had been a crew chief in the Thunderbirds and showed me a lot of the little differences and had some amazing memorabilia. I still have one of the hubcaps we flew on the plane with a hand-painted Black Widows squadron patch on it.
Worked on the former F4 Phantom Thunderbirds at Nellis AFB in the 70s. There were 2 or 3 of them that went to the weapons school fleet when the unit transitioned to T38s. But they did not have any weapons capabilities, carrying only radios. I don't believe any of them were ever made fully operational before they were finally retired. You could always spot one the with their highly polished burner cans and and intake accents after they were returned to the Vietnam camo paint scheme. What they could do is outperform their sisters. They weighed much less.
Very cool! Thanks for your service! Do you know why they were never made fully operational? Were they low rate production models? I imagine times were different then with an active war going on.
@@aerospacehorizons They probably found them suitable as they were for towing target darts. Also new F4Es that had been built for Iran were being diverted to the US inventory as production was beginning to wind down.
Excellent breakdown.
Glad you liked it!
I think that a critical detail of their ability to switch to combat roles is the scenario in which it happens. If we are at war and need every plane then yeah, the pilots go to the training squadron(s), train back up to combat readiness, and switch jets. If we just got invade and we don't have the months needed to retain then you slap weapons on the planes and the pilots take them up, because a rusty combat pilot is better than no combat pilot.
Exactly! Thanks for watching!
UA-cam has failed me, idk how I just now saw this lol. Never knew about the pilots in Vietnam, very informative video!
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching!
great video! great b-roll! I watch these on my lunch! Keep up the great work!!!
Thanks for the kind words, and for watching! I’m having a blast making them.
Im now vividly imagining the Blues dogfighting UFOs over NAS Pensacola... hell, might as well wake up the old warbirds in the museum at that point, lmao!
Oh man that would be a sight to behold! Thanks for watching!
Never ever leave your wingman takes on a whole new meaning
Solid content
Thanks for watching!
congrats sir ! you ve got another subscriber
Thanks! Much more to come!
I'm glad you're excited about this also-
I know about the gun removal, inverted fuel pump, smoke system, stick spring, etc.
But what are the numbers and performance in weight reduction and cleanness from the fleet to Blue? Do they keep the radar for CG?
How about an in depth from the maint/maintainer side about the conversion on both the -16/18?
Would love to cover all that! Maybe I can get a maintainer on to discuss it… Thanks for watching, and stay tuned.
Great video. Very enjoyable. FIrst time viewer, subscribed.
Welcome aboard! Glad you enjoyed and thanks for watching! More to come!
Great Content!!!
Thanks for watching!
I would think 72 hours for Navy pilots would not be feasible. The first 72 hours might be enough for simulator time before going to a base to do field carrier landing practice and after that going to the carrier to the qualification.
I think realistically it would take a month before they could be deployed. But that could be shortened if the sh!t really hit the fan.
Yep! It would have to be a real break glass in case of emergency kind of scenario to get it done in 72 hours… waiving every protocol and procedure the Navy has. Thanks for watching.
Really enjoyed the video. A Blue Angel pilot told me it would take months for a pilot to be Combat Certified to fly in combat again. Especially for pilots who have flown the #5 Jet who would be on their 3rd year. I assume it would be the same for the T-Birds.
Who said the planes needed to be repainted? How cool would it be if the livery entered combat?
I can't even imagine the fear in the hearts of the bad guys seeing one of these squadrons coming at me.
I know some of the Red Arrow (UK) pilots have been sent off to fly missions over seas but never all of them or their jets. Still pretty cool
in the military, there is always a waiver, it just needs to be signed by someone authorized to assume that level of risk.
Have done a lot of photo work with the Blues over the years. The Legacies were REALLY BAD by the end. I was asked not to publish any photos showing the issues the airframes had but trust me, they were beat up. Went drinking one night with some of the maintainers, they said they didn't know how they were going to get 6 jets in the air for the next show. They already had to swap into #7 during the performance when #2 took a schvitz. Luckily the Supers all came from Test and Eval squadrons and VFA-106/122 which are training squadrons, so they were pretty decent.
This seems to be the prevailing sentiment for the Blues. Thanks for watching!
In the 80s, the RAF had a policy to put Red Arrow Hawks into combat if WW3 ever kicked off during that time. The main RAF fighters at that point were the F-4 Phantom, an increasing number Tornado F3's and a dwindling number of Lightnings. The idea was that if the Soviets sent Badgers, Bears, Bisons, Backfires and Blinders over the N. Sea, it may be done with fighter escort from Su-27 Flankers. In close combat, Phantoms and Tornadoes would be at a disadvantage. Hence 72 Hawk trainers were wired to carry Sidewinders incl those of the Red Arrows.
There's a Blue Angels memorial somewhat near me with a real F/A-18. Apparently, it can also be turned into a combat aircraft. I doubt it'd take 72 hours though, more like weeks to months. Still pretty cool.
Blue Angels would fly so close together that the enemy could see one contact and then bam spilt up and attack.
The SKYBLAZER acrobatic team consisted of WW II fighter jocks flying active combat ready f-84's later f-86's. They flew patrol along the East German border with full combat ordinance. Then flew the same planes on the weekends at airshow throughout Europe.
I assure you they did things at those shows with those stock combat aircraft that the current teams would NEVER be allowed to do.
Yes, Back when in 88-92 while I was with the 57EMS at Nellis, I was on the mobility team if needed to deploy with the T-Birds if they were mobilized or needed.
That’s so cool! What exactly does a mobility team do? Would love to chat with you about it. Thanks for your service!
@@aerospacehorizons I'm thinking he was on a list where they would pull in MOS's that isn't used (needed or limited on) on the demo teams...like weapons/loading and ?? from training school duties....
@@andrewj9831 Pretty much. I was a Parachute Survival Euipment Specialist, packed the ACESII chute. Back then the T-Birds relied on us to pack the chutes for the ejection seats. If they were ever Mobilized we would deploy with the Squadron to maintain them. Very rare that it would happen, but during the lead up to Desert Storm they did atleast brushed the dust of the idea and at started making sure logistically they could do it. Realistically the AF would have to be pretty desperate to try and retrofit a few F-16s. :) But it was fun at the time.
@@kenlanier2131 Interesting info! Of course there was a contingency for everything… even if it wasn’t used!
The one scenario I could see this happening is a 911 type scenario where armed Blue Angle/Thunderbird patrols over major cities could be used a a psychological boost to a shaken population.
I’d imagine there are enough F16s in use that if the ones in use by the Thunderbirds need to be used in a war, well, things would be going pretty badly. This might be true for the Blue Angels, too.
After he came back from Vietnam My Father finished his tour doing ground work for the Thunderbirds
There is a lot of theory in what you just said, but from someone that was in the USAF and worked on fighter jets, most likely stuff would really have to hit the fan first. I am talking like alien attacks, and or WWIII. They would then most likely disband the teams, and send the pilots to actual fighter squadrons and get the combat training the need there. And they most likely would do the same for the aircraft maintainers. And if any of the planes were actually combat worthy they most likely would have a depot team convert the aircraft for a combat role.
It just doesn't make much real world sense to try and turn a demonstration team into a fighter squadron.
Thanks for your service and insight here! It seems like a real break glass in case of emergency situation for sure!
Another issue is that at least with the Tbirds, the pilots aren’t all F-16 pilots. Yes, they are all fighter pilots but they only have a Basic Qual in the Viper. They come from across the Air Force and may only have a Mission Qual in their assigned jet such as a F-15C, F-15E, F-22, F-35. A-10. It would take months to qual them in an aircraft and for a mission they never learned to employ. In reality it be much more realistic to send them back to their original weapon system.
All USMC pilots for the Blues would also have this issue. The USMC doesn’t fly the Super Hornet and their jet pilots need to get trained in it to be on the team.
Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that the Thunderbirds don't have their own specialized cargo aircraft, like the Blue Angels Fat Albert. And it's also interesting they use something like a C-130, an Airforce and Marine Corps plane, instead of something like a C-2 Greyhound, the C-130's equivalent in the navy
Yeah it’s weird, right? Fat Albert has proven itself time and time again over the decades.
Hell, don't paint them. Psychological warfare. Imagine being bombed by an F-16 painted red white and blue with an eagle on the belly.
Given that the Thunderbirds are based at Nellis AFB and that base regularly takes part in actual combat missions with it hosting Red Flag I think it is more feasible for them to be ready in 72 hours. As far as the Blues go do I think it is possible of course, however, given that NAS Pensacola is primarily a training base, it would be harder to equip their jets as quickly, 5 days would be a better timeframe for their jets!
What difference does it make where their home base is???? Yes, before the start of the show season they are at Nellis and Pensacola, but they spend weeks fine-tuning their airshow routine....not combat techniques. Once the air show season starts, they are out on the "road" (or air as it was), flying from airshow to airshow around the country (or around the world). They don't come anywhere near to home base until the end of the season or if an airshow is close to NV or FL.
If a war beaks out and the USAF or USN really, really really needs the BA and TB jets. The jets will be re-painted and re-configured for combat and sent out to the fleet for use by other combat-ready pilots. But, the BA and TB pilots would not go with the jets.
Fantastic video. Definitely not click bait.
Thanks for watching! Glad you enjoyed it.
I first saw the BLUES flying the A-s and the THUNDERCHICKENS (usaf joke) flying the F-4s. i went into the USAF AND HAD FUN in a sense and traveled. th NAVY AND THE AIR FORCE are the 2 best services to go to for tech jobs. no im not a recruiter, i love to talk about the military. ARMY BRAT. THANKS for the video.
I think your conclusion is fairly accurate, but just getting these planes to where they are needed would take more than 72 hours. Moving fighters anywhere requires a fairly large logistical trail of tanker and cargo aircraft. The Thunderbirds usually land to refuel when moving from show to show as tanker aircraft are at a premium. The pilots would need to get current on combat tasks as mentioned. The T-Birds and Blue Angels excel at their primary mission, recruiting.
Yep, I realized my framing was a little inaccurate. I think they state 72 hours to be ready for war. Not 72 hours to the front lines. That being said, 72 hours in any sense is certainly a stretch regardless unless it is a true emergency.
@@aerospacehorizons it was a good video. I’m in the Air Force and work at Air Mobility Command, tanker and cargo aircraft headquarters. I even flew a support mission for the T-Birds when I was actively flying. I see and manage their support aircraft, which is surprisingly a small amount. They are a completely professional top notch organization that excels in showmanship, recruiting, and public relations. Trash haulers (cargo aircraft) see them as Prima Donnas and poke fun at them, but in all honesty it’s rooted in jealousy. I’ve heard the claim they can go to war in 72 hours and I’m skeptical. I think this is just something they claim to justify their existence. I don’t know much about the Blue Angles since I’m Air Force, but I think the Angles put on a better show. I’ve been to dozens of air shows throughout my career.
@@aerospacehorizons I think your video is a pretty accurate representation of the reality. The pilots on both teams would need recurrent training on combat tactics and in the case of the Blues, carrier ops. The Thunderbirds jets could be converted back to combat status. The Blues LRIP Rhinos, not so much. The 72 hour number is far more theoretical than practical. For the personnel or material assets of either team to be called up for combat, things would have to have gotten pretty sideways.
I subscribed because of this video.
Thanks! Welcome! Much more to come!
I like both teams but obviously it’s simply not true. The only way those birds and those pilots see war is if everything has gone bad. Even then at “72 hours” they are not combat ready.
Perhaps a better way to put it would be: From a theoretical standpoint, yes. From a practical standpoint, probably not.
Cool.
This would make a great movie. As a comedy.
The downside to living near an Air Force base is that the only Blue Angel I ever get to see is the retired F/A-18B of #7 at the Davis Monthan Boneyard.
the biggsst issue is they would need to repaint their aircraft as fast as possible which takes time to do properly. otherwise they would need to use other aircraft. unless they would fighting on the home front then they wouldn't need to repaint the aircraft with camouflage.
there is a very good reason why aircraft have camouflage.
Its possible but if they have to get in the mix
then shit has truly hit the fan
Remember fit is not just the pilots that are part of those teams there are a large number of support personnel that are just as important that would also be called up if needed.
Absolutely! I touched on this a bit but clearly not enough. I imagine in a hypothetical situation like this it would be all hands on deck and those folks would CRUSH it. They do so much to keep those old jets in the air already.
Yes. Even THESE plane can be fully armed...ready for combat.
The T-Birds and The Angels get the most worn ouut equipment in the inventory. Planes on their last legs. Most people don't know that. Perhaps the pilots could 'convert' but the planes... not so much.
They would be used as instructors for sure
Personally I think if we had to bring either team to combat
Keep the paint and squadron together but attach them to another squadron.
Namely due to the fact that these teams are already very well coordinated and are used to flying with each other.
Having worked on Blue Angel birds. They are all held together with rtv and blue spray paint. No way in hell any of those birds will ever see combat
That seems to be the sentiment I’m hearing! When were you on the team?
Fat Albert is the secret weapon with it rocket takeoffs
Sadly they don’t do the JATO anymore - but it would undoubtedly be the most useful asset in war time for sure. Thanks for watching!
Unless they have _regular training_ I find it difficult to believe they can achieve operational readiness in 72 hours.
Go ARMY! 🇺🇸
The pilots could the planes have been modified and a configured for demonstrations and they are usually airframes at the end of their useful life and may not handle combat really well but the pilots could go fly frontline fleet aircraft and increase the sortie interval but it would have to be a very desperate situation
It would be cool if either team was actually sent to combat that they wouldn't be reassigned to different squadrons, but were kept together and that they didn't repaint their aircraft.
Them staying together is probably likely, unless they were reassigned as training officers - which is probable given how skilled they are. Yes they should absolutely keep the paint… even if it’s not the best camouflage! 😂 thanks for watching!
Could they? Yes. They are fighters, and fighter pilots. But the skills they honed for performing in airshows isn't going to make them better at BFM.
Absolutely.
I think its time both teams got the F22 upgrade since they are currently being deployed for opportunities and their capabilities are becoming more well-known
There are a ton of reasons why the thunderbirds will never fly the F-22. Maybe I’ll make a video about them!
The Blue Angels are Navy/Marine Corps. Neither service flies the F-22.
@@aerospacehorizons I see. I was under the influence they made verifications of the F22 for both. Then again I do have memory issues and may have been mixed up with a different aircraft. But still, it would be awesome if they did
@@uncleweirdbeard86 you’re probably thinking of the F-35! Which would also be tough for them to switch to, but not impossible.
@@aerospacehorizons I remember now, lol. Its tough for me to remember these kinda things correctly unless its information I use regularly. I use to play jet sims and thats were I learned most of my knowledge about fighters. These oast few years the only fighters I've been focusing on are tge ones I make in Space Engineers
one thing that help the Thunderbirds. In 1988 to do that with the weapons was those jets where block 30 and fairly new jets and the team got them brand new for some reason I was to say they took all that stuff of jets and still had the hardware on hand
Interesting! Do you have a source on that? I’d heard Thunderbirds sometimes got brand new jets but couldn’t find a reliable source on it.
@@aerospacehorizons Thunderbirds when to F16 after the crash of 4 T38 at one time losing most of the team in one day and keep in mind in the 80s that was a new jet to the air force. There was no old F16 in the system
@@fastone942 looks like it was as new when the Thunderbirds started flying them as the F-18 was when the Blues started flying it. As I mentioned in the video, the Blues flew low rate initial production models to not take "new" jets from the fleet. I wonder if the Thunderbirds did something similar or if they truly got "new" F-16s.
@@aerospacehorizons I am not aware that any F-16s, even the early model jets that first equipped the team in 1983 were ever truly factory-new. I remember distinctly that this did happen with the F-105s back in the 60s. I have a book with some photos of the pilots inspecting their Thuds on the assembly line at Republic. As for the tail numbers currently flying on the TB team, I believe they all came from operational active duty, ANG or AFRC units and were converted to the demonstration role by the team. As Block 52 airplanes, they could certainly be converted back to combat status.....just not likely in 72 hours.
@@kevinmadore1794 You seem to have a lot of knowledge about the T-Birds aircraft. Is that from professional experience or just tracking it from afar? Always looking for reliable sources to inform these discussions :)
Reading the title i thought we are finally getting some dogfighting between the first and second largest air forces in the world
Im enlisted in the navy and our old CO of our fighter squadron Cdr bryan recently just transferred to become the new CO of the Blue Angels. He’s a good man, everyone who I’ve asked said they also loved him. I believe he’s training right now for stunts and whatever else they do there. But tldr: yes they could and I’m sure they could be very effective 😂
I hear he’s a great guy! Thanks for your service!
If any of these plains go to war, we're in trouble.
At the start of GWOT there were bright orange coast guard ships in the middle east
Pushing for a mission. In 1986 my ship was in Subic Bay and at morning quarters we were told that even though one engine was out we would be get underway in 8 hours. One hour later we were told we would be getting underway in 4 hours. Two hours after quarters we were told we were getting underway in 2 hours. At three hours after quarters we were taking in all lines and the engine had been installed far enough that the engineers could get it running in another 24 hours.
This was the day President Marcos fled the Philippines and depending on how he fled we were to escort him or refuel his helicopter.
While the BAs and TBs have a certain amount of celebrity level plot armor, they are first and foremost combat pilots. Guaranteed they are ready.
5:58 - There would probably be quite a lot of lead time if strategic planners thought this would be necessary.
Fat Albert is exemplary
Sure is! Much more to come on this channel about Bert. Stay tuned. Thanks for watching!
I'm really curious, during their 72 hour "test" how accurate was the Thunderbird pilots' shooting?
Not sure, but I’d have to assume bullseye! 😂
You can learn more about it here:
sierrahotel.net/blogs/news/warbird
0:31 " It's a little complicated...." That's what she said.
*Bandit on Thunderbird or Blue* *Pulls airshow stunt*
Bandit bamboozled
All the airshow maneuvers are ones they would do in combat, just put together to look fun, or done at closer spacing to look cooler.
Imagine dogfighting a weirdly painted Hornet in your country's best aircraft just for the damn thing to pull Ace Combat ass maneuvers on you
I always thought the Thunderbirds and Blue Angels should have made an appearance in the final assault in Independence Day
“In the words of my generation… Up… YOURS!!!!” 😂
Yes they could do it in 72 hrs. Not completly sure but they would either each be sent where needed to fill vacancies. But most likely folded into an airwing. Weather they would be given a new sqaudren designation or not, i dont know. But they would never fly i. They angels/falcons paint scheams because enemy pilots would target them because of there rep. Falcons would be easier no carrier quals like u mentioned. But thats still not a big deal. Every navy pilot has to reqaulify when there sqaudren arrives at a ship for deployment. Takes a couple of days for the whole airwing. So not a big deal.
In a war, are the Blue Angels considered deployed when they are at home, flying domestically, while doing recruitment focused shows?
That’s a great question and one that I’m not qualified to answer! Let me see if I can ask around.
1984\85 was part of the 430th "Tigers" Squadron, At that time "technically" Thunderbirds jets belonged to us, normal squadron would be 3 flights of 8 jets for a squadron of 24 jets. we only had 16 jets F16 A/B Block 10/15. our sister squadrons had a full squadron of 24 jets. This was either the first or second year with the F-16s. They had lost 4 pilots in t-38s in 1982. This may have been a one time deal to furnish them with F-16's.
Except for paint, those F-16's, Pilots and Maint crews would have easily been moved down the flightline to us. Here is the trick, Those planes would have become Hanger Queens till they could be painted. You always rotated planes for parts. To keep its contracted monthly flight hours for the jet, you would pull another plane in for maintenance, and pull it parts to get the previous plane flying so it gets its hours for the month. this was 1984 \ 85 and the squadron does not exist anymore.
Question, at 5:13 why do all these flags appear on the plane?
I know for a fact a bunch of those have a tiny air force if any, let alone having f-16's.
That’s a great question… Now I’m curious. Time to research.
If the Air Force or Navy sent the Thunder Birds or Blue Angels to war, they should leave them in their demo team livery like an Ace Combat game to scare the be-jesus out of people.
(This comment is 90% sarcasm)
Imagine being an enemy pilot and then the US equivalent of the Yellow Squadron shows up in full demonstration colors.
*Yo buddy, Nice Livery*
And the worst part about this is those named squadrons tend to come late into the fight. That means other pilots have already weakened or screwed over your air defense. Making it less likely you'll take them out.
I am by no means an expert but I love these planes and I love to learn about them from afar. So to the point.. no the pilots cannot just slot back into a front line fighter pilot role. The type of practice and coordination needed to fly in formation just feet or even inches from each other is completely different, both physically and mentally, from combat flying. The physically different being you absolutely do not want to be buttoned up and predictable in the way you maneuver in combat if you wish to stay alive. It would take weeks and maybe months to reprogram their reflexes back into combat mode. Are they trained and capable, yes but it would take time to get back into combat mode
True, but if you didn’t have that time in an emergency situation… I’d take them over not flying anyone at all! Thanks for watching!
@@aerospacehorizons I can not argue with that.
They are flying display planes only. They are not armed and I don’t believe they can be unless they go through a major upgrade which would take time and effort. They are needed as there are plenty of combat ready F16 and F/A18 already.
Speaking of Fat Albert...can a C-130 be made ready to land and take off from a carrier deck?
This was done once in 1963! Definitely possible, but it was deemed too impractical given the space it takes up on deck.
simpleflying.com/us-navy-c130-hercules-aircraft-carrier-landing-story/
While I definitely think pilots and ground crew could switch to combat in 72 hours I would think most of their equipment would be switched to the most current and only military focused equipment. Even then I would think they would need advisors and people there watching them and helping
Those jets are the oldest jets in the fleet with a ton of hours on them.
Were you an IP in VT-7?
The max a pilot is away from normal flying is 3 years, the amount of flying they had to do to become proficient enough to make the team is very very high. So I disagree that a demo pilot couldn't just hop into a grey jet and go to work, especially since they are likely to go back to the same type. Carrier quals is mostly a certification aspect, they fly a carrier approach almost ever time they land. I'd also like your source on the T-birds getting new F-16s, it was always my understanding that all the block 50 were prior squadron birds, I've never heard of them getting new planes, just hand me downs.
Hi, thanks for watching! Appreciate your insight.
I agree it would be a pretty easy jump back into a grey jet of the same type. I do think there would be at least some training (albeit light) to get back up to speed on weapons systems stuff.
As for carrier quals - in an emergency I imagine this requirement could be loosened. They’re fighter pilots - they’ll figure it out!
For new F-16s, it’s talked about here:
sierrahotel.net/blogs/news/warbird
And for the block 52:
www.hill.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/398165/hill-delivers-final-block-52s-to-thunderbirds-one-year-ahead-of-schedule/
Reading it back, it seems it’s a little ambiguous if the 52s were new, or upgraded. But the first article states the jet used for the 72 hour test “originally came to the team from the factory (I don’t know that date) painted in Thunderbird colors”. I’ve heard that elsewhere too - just don’t have the sources in front of me. So it seems they have in the past at least received brand new aircraft.
@@aerospacehorizonsit says all there jets were upgraded from block 32s to block 52s meaning they upgraded an old airframe. None of there jets were delivered from Lockheed.
My misunderstanding! I'm going to lift that part out of the video to avoid confusion. Thanks for the callout!
@@aerospacehorizons Its not really that big of deal. The team did receive 'new' jets, as in new capabilities, just not new air frames. The last F- 16 delivered new in the United States was in 2005, in the Block 52 configuration.
Correct. None of the jets the Thunderbirds are currently flying were delivered to the squadron factory-new. They are combat jets, derived from active duty, ANG or AFRC units, which were converted to the air demonstration role by the team. Unlike the Blue Angels LRIP jets, the T-Birds Block 52s could be made ready for combat.....although from a practical standpoint, just not in 72 hours.
I LOVED READING A BOOK IN HIGHSCHOOL BACK IN 1991 CALLED WINGMAN. IT HAS TO DO WITH A POSTAPOCALPTIC TIME AFTER WWIII AND FIGHTER PLANES RULED THE SKIES. THE MAIN CHARACTER FIGHTER PILOT AND FORMER THUNDERBIRDS PILOT WAS THE MAD MAX OF THE SKIES. GREAT BOOK!
That's all I was thinking of when I saw the Thunderbird with pylons on the wings. Way out there, but awesome books!
Don't underestimate maintainers. We have done so much for so long with so little that we are qualified to do just about anything with just about nothing.
Of course! You make miracles happen!
With the Blues the pilots have to requalify for carrier duty its not something that they keep up with when they fly for the blues
Yes
These cats don’t fly an air show for our enemies. They fly an entirely different way in combat and would most likely be integrated into other squadrons than fly as a team.