Parallel random LiFePO4 12v batteries
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2023
- In this video we build a power shelf to aid in paralleling random different LiFePO4 batteries for long term testing.
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The Relay
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DISCLAIMER: These videos are documenting my own projects, and experiences. These projects, and activities can be dangerous. Do not try any of this at home, doing so will be at your own risk.
Brad, this is no exaggeration. The details you give as you go along w your tests, all those incidental matters concerning various components involved (in the tests, trials, descriptions of whatever your video is about) are so important, necessary and useful, particularly for me, that I am indebted to you for your instruction. The finess and simplicity of your explanations and observations are so valuable. You cannot imagine how much I've learned by watching what you do and commenting on stuff as you go along. You are an amazing and thorough teacher! The stuff I learn in a few minutes!!
I'm honored to be such a help. Your appreciation really makes it worth my time ☺
That's one hell of an idea. I've been curious to see if different brands will work well together. I also like that you're making use of these batteries, your learning experience is our learning experience and it is appreciated.
Thanks, glad you like it!
You can parallel different capacity LiFePO4 batteries. The lower resistance in the higher capacity ones compensates for the difference. Andy actually made a test with 300ah and 5ah in paralelo and they go up and down exactly proportionally. It's awesome! My only comment is to make sure the batteries have cables with the same length to each battery. Otherwise it will have different loads on each one due to a higher resistance in the longer cables. I have actually done that test and it is incredible what a little different length results in.
Yes, they all have the same cable length. Thanks!
Good idea, good application. I've been mixing batteries for quite a while now with no adverse effects, as well.
Nice! Thanks for the feedback.
Thats pretty awesome. A good powerwalll with those drop in batteries rocks. They should all discharge evenly I'd think
It will be fine. LiFePO4 is the safest and very forgiving.
Lol. Epic POC. I love this idea, looking forward to data you get from it!
🤣I hate that SCC. I've had some guys suggest the shunt per battery idea we were talking about. Just need to convince some company to send 8 now :)
@@BradCagle Now that you have a cool setup somebody might. Gets their name in front of the screen 8x every time you pan the camera!
@@BeeneEnergy That's true😉
I was running a 100Ah midrange LFP (Rebel w/JBD) and was gifted a low-end 50Ah (Chins). I thought about it, did some reading, watched Will's paralleling experiments, then decided to parallel them.
I charged them to the same voltage before connection. They've been together in real use (fulltime boondocking) for 5 months without problem. The 100Ah seems to have *slightly* less resistance because I observe maybe 10% higher current on that one when charge/discharge current is heavier. But it's being worked less hard than when it was on its own. Optimally one might connect them both to bus bars, tuning the wiring resistance to get a more balanced system.
Conclusion: seems to be a net win, given that the battery was free. Folks building new systems from the ground up should use matching batts. :-)
Nice. Thanks for the feedback
That’s a great idea. I would say you got it going on now. If there are matching bms and cells I would seriously series a couple up if possible. Maybe the ones with the same cells you could find a good deal on a pair of bms. I’m sure.you will have some more great ideas to use them. You got a heck of a back up now.
Put a DC fuse block and a 4x gpu mining rig on top and in the middle and hash away my friend!
You been reading my mind? 🤣That's it tinfoil lining is going back in my hat! Absolutely, I reserved the top shelf for exactly that!
@@BradCagle save your tinfoil this is just a classic case of great minds ;)
Keeping them healthy 👍
Yes sir!
why not. only issue with this unbalanced power draw between the least resistance connection to the longest one. Will Prowse channel is complaining of this but I reasoned that if your load or current is low, it should be no issue.
I'm going to keep and eye on that, a few of these batteries have BT so we can see what's going on there. Another viewer mention using a shunt per battery, that would be the ultimate.
I mean, it should be fine. You're right in being concerned about that solar charger. That to me is the scary part of your build.
Yeah that charge controller is coming out. I have a outback FM80 to replace it.
Same voltage, same chemistry, sure, you can parallel them to your heart's content with appropriate fusing as you have done. I would also recommend a DC breaker leaving the bus bar to the equipment sized to the maximum expected amperage. If you want to be fancy you can also have a second small DC breaker in series with a permanent pre-charge resistor to make things easy. You want the DC breaker to be the first line of defense against accidental shorts, because checking and replacing fuses can be a pain.
The batteries do not have to be at the same state of charge to start, they only need to be at sufficiently close a voltage so connecting them to each other doesn't result in a ton of current. You can charge the whole "pack" and hold it 14.2V with no load for 2 hours or so to get everything to the same SOC (100%).
One thing you will notice is that it may take a very, very, very long time to charge that much storage. This is generally not a problem, but it does mean that you should ensure the use of appropriate charge controller settings. Bulk target 14.2V, absorb time 2h, float setting should be in the 13.5V to 13.6V range depending on how much load support you want the solar to be able to provide when the pack is full.
*same capacity, same IR
You can deviate a bit, more so if you aren’t pulling a large amount of current but in order to make a pack as efficient as possible you would want to have these two variables be as similar as possible
@@ericklein5097 Well, that depends solely on what the loads are. The capacities do not have to be the same when running in parallel, nor does the internal resistance. In most situations for cobbled together packs like this the discharge rate is so low that the pack will operate efficiently regardless. All a higher internal resistance causes is for other batteries in the pack to contribute more current. But all the batteries will still draw-down at more or less the same SOC rate (not in amps, but in percent SOC).
But for safety reasons, the total system load cannot exceed the maximum discharge rate of the lowest-capacity battery in the bank. And similarly for charging. The reason is that if charging to cut-off or discharging to cut-off, or for other reasons, it is possible for all but one battery BMSs to disconnect and leave just one battery in the bank running the load or taking the charge.
In a more professional installation... for example, a rack mounted set of batteries, the inverter-charger is monitoring the BMS's for all the units and knows how many are actually contributing to the bus. In this situation the maximum amperage on the bus can be far higher because the inverter-charger will not allow it to exceed the capability of the batteries in a partial-disconnect situation.
Hi brad my is 24 Volt my works great I use victron charges maximum 28 Volt charge. 27 volts float for the last ten months "three different pairs of lithium batteries" 2-300 amp 2-130 amp 2-100 amp
Sweet, thanks for the info!
Hey Brad, another interesting and informative experiment - thank you sir!
I'm wondering how you are going to tell how long a battery lasts when they are all paralleled like that. Better ask for more Juntek shunts so you can attach one to each battery to monitor the current each battery is delivering? (That'd be nice to unbox a box of them!)
Have you considered setting the batteries up outside in case one does fizzle? This could be on the other side of the window from where they are so they are visible from within your battery test, disassemble and experiment room.
I did think about doing the shunt per battery. I might float that idea out to see if a manufacture will sponsor that. Other than that, I'm thinking as a new battery comes in the oldest comes off the shelf, and get's retested for capacity, and function. Yeah, I'm certainly concerned about a fizzle scenario 😅This is my sun room, it's closed off from the rest of the house, it remains open so if the fizzle only produces toxic gas, and smoke we should be fine. If it produces flame that roof is connected to my house and we have a problem. Luckily the fire dept. is just a few blocks away, and there's always someone here 😂
@@BradCagle I would expect someone to sponsor this setup - many people are using paralleled batteries and this is perhaps the only way of keeping an eye on each battery, so when people see that solution, the demand for shunts will increase. Perhaps they will even develop a multi shunt unit to simplify the whole process. C'mon manufacturers do we need to spoon feed you? :)
@@BenMitro Oh man, the multi-shunt unit would be sick!
@@BradCagle Its the right way to monitor multiple parallel batteries and shunt manufacturers engineering people will know that.
Nice. Definitely don't want to depend on one thing protecting something else. Especially as voltage goes up.
👍👍👍
I've always wondered what you do with the large amount of batteries from reviews :). How many more shelves would you fill with them?
If you already have them, it's always better to use them than just store them without using them.
Yeah, I think I'll have to limit to maybe two shelfs, not sure yet. I'm thinking as a new battery comes in for review, the oldest will be removed from the shelf, tested, and the the new one takes it's place.
I’m adding a new bank ( different brands- same 100 amp 12v) I’m using a relay from the charger to the banks( so I can select which bank to charge)
2. I’m using an isolater to choose which bank goes to the inverter.
Is this overkill, if I can run these two brands together ( li-time and renogy) in parallel that would be awesome!
Would be interested in a couple of your old lithium batteries when you decide to part with them.
Don't see any problems with this since every battery is fused tho I would probably put a smoke alarm/detector within a few feet just so I could sleep well at night! Looking forward to an update video on this system.
Smoke Detector is a good idea! Thanks
Great video! I just bought the Junctek. I have 2 48v 70ah batteries in parallel to supplement my Delta Pro. Want to monitor them. Did Junctek come with temp probe?
Awesome! Yes it does come with the temp probe.
@BradCagle Can my 48v power the monitor or do I need an additional way to power?
@@stevenshircliff393 The red wire to your battery positive then to the screw terminal labeled Vsns is all you need (well and the negative of your battery passing through the shunt). It will run on 10-120v.
@@BradCagle Awesome, thanks!
Where did you find the relay that ypu ha e hooked to the shunt? I like that shunt and relay setup
batteryhookup.com/products/te-connectivity-ev200aaana-500a-0-900vdc
and you can use discount code BMC to save 5%
Are all batteries the same amperage like 100 110 how about a 200 in a 400
Yes. I will have a 280Ah in it soon!
👍🏼
Can you provide details on the relay? It's switch under loads, obviously, and hence the loud spring loaded click. Will it work under a 150+VOC short in the charge controller?
Yes it can handle 900vdc and 500a here's the relay: batteryhookup.com/products/te-connectivity-ev200aaana-500a-0-900vdc
@@BradCagle Darn. Our system is 48V LiFePO4 (so up to 60VDC). Its literatlly 10x cheaper on batteryhookup vs than any other seller including the manufacturure. I emailed them and begged for the relay in ev200adana version for 32-95VDC.
@@silverleapersthere are dc-dc converters that would voltage divide so you could use a lower voltage in the control loop
Is there any difference between wiring the batteries up in parallel using the bus bars or wiring them in parallel directly battery to battery?
Possibly. The theory is if all the cables are the same length, wiring them to a central point (bus bars) will distribute the load/charge evenly. If wired battery to battery then some batteries will do more work. Now in my case where they are all different brands/models It may not help much. We shall see.
Any updates on this experiment? Did you got all of the batteries connected to the bus bars? What do you think would happen if you connected a 12v battery with 200AH capacity, along with all of those other 100AH capacity batteries?
Yes. I've got 6 connected right now. As for the 200ah, I did have a 280ah hooked up, seemed fine but I did not take any measurements. I think there will be more current flowing to/from the larger battery. I'll get around to some tests, and updates soon.
The only thing I would be concerned about is the disparity between the various BMS's in those batteries. Personally, I would only do this with batteries that are at least rated to run with 4 in parallel. The problem I see happening (and have seen, in person) is not every battery in the configuration will be charged equally. It's quite likely that the battery with the least resistance, either through length of cable run or because the BMS is "first" in the parallel connection, will discharge and charge more quickly than other batteries in the array. There's a reason they tell you to not do this, but I think the biggest reason is so that folks get as much out of a given set of batteries as they expect. My guess is this will be far from optimized (you should probably disassemble and charge each battery to 100%, periodically) but if you keep the loads to a reasonable level, it should work well enough.
Yeah, I figured they would have some balance issues load, and SOC. I did make the cables all the same length, but you're right about different resistance of each battery. Time will tell, it's an experiment. Thanks!
@@BradCagle - A very cool experiment. Andy, at the OGG, did something sorta similar, but not with as many disparate batteries in the array. Odds are, if you keep your draw to something around 80 amps or less, it will just work and be sort of boring...but not to me, I think it's COOL! :)
Maybe keep SOC to 90%? I believe voltage will dictate then more than state of charge. Especially when you can only charge with so many amps being 12 volts. I think everything will live a gravy life this way except for charge controllers... haha
@@lancealderman2755 - Yeah, based on what he showed and discussed in the video...I'd thrown that solar charge controller in the garbage and replace it with something better for this set up.
@@jasonbroom7147 Yes, that's what I came to say also. I was glad you said thinking of getting a better charge controller.
Is your cable big enough for all the amps?
Well not for all the 800+ amps that this is capable of. I wont ever use that much so I have fuses that limit to 175a
@@BradCagle just be safe out there don't want to burn it down 😀
@@pnowikow For sure, that is a top concern 🤣Thanks
Interesting , one commentor mentioned about not only different brands , but different capacity batteries.
Is connecting different capacity batteries a problem ?
We will probably find out, I think I will add some different capacity batteries in. I have a 280ah coming up for review 😅
Does it matter if some batteries use pouch cells and some use prismatic?
I'm not sure at this point. Pouch cells in these batteries have only been in the mainstream for about a year. That being said I have not seen any big reports of problems.
@@BradCagle I know underneath the container (pouch, cylinder, cube) everything is exactly the same, but I've read many places not to mix between the 3. GoKWH even says don't lay their batteries (pouch) on it's side. Not sure why.
@@TheWoodHaven Yeah, most also say to limit 4 in parallel. Not sure why. The other thing that is weird is the 0.2c discharge test. I've done a lot of discharge tests, and I see negligible capacity difference between 0.2, 0.5, and 1.0c rates.
I backed away when that wrench slipped between the neg battery terminal and the positive bus bar. The bus bars being so close to the "battey" terminals are making me a bit nervous. Wonder if that junctek name is just an unfortunate choice or pure genius :)
It's just the angle the camera was at. There's pretty good distance between the busbars, and the battery terminals. Also the wrench has a thick insulated handle. That Junctek name it hilarious. I've contemplated creating a service for Chinese companies to test their name ideas with the US market before committing to something silly like this :) Thanks!
I assume those shelves are metal. I would be nervous with making any connection.
The frame is metal. The shelfs are wood. Thanks
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