Battle Masters: The Younger, BIGGER Sibling of HeroQuest
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2024
- In 1992 MB Games and Games Workshop completed their epic trilogy of family board games with the release of Battle Masters; a huge two player wargame featuring over a hundred Citadel miniatures from the Empire and the forces of Chaos.
Conceived by HeroQuest and Space Crusade game designer Stephen Baker the game was an enormous undertaking and tried to capture his childhood experiences with miniature wargames and Warhammer Fantasy in a single box.
In Germany and some other countries the game was made famous under the name Die Claymore Saga, with a brand new story and setting.
In my history of Battle Masters I explore the inspirations and efforts that led to the game and share insights and reflections from my exclusive interview with Stephen Baker himself.
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#BattleMasters Warhammer #GamesWorkshop #MBGames #Boardgame #HeroQuest #SpaceCrusade #StephenBaker
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References & Sources:
[Stephen Baker Interview] jordansorcery.com/interview-s...
[Battle Masters Board Game Geek] boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7...
[Battle Masters Advert] • Battle Masters UK TV a...
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As a small boy in the exact middle of America in the early 90s, this is how I found out about Warhammer. I was MASSIVELY obsessed with Tolkien and fantasy wars when I was 11. Battlemasters here came with this accordion folded pamphlet with loads of GW adverts on it in beautiful 90s art. You remember that huge Lord of Battle image with the Chaos Warrior astride his steed? That image was in there. The cover of 4th ed WHFB was on there. I couldn't believe there was a small comic shop near me that sold GW stuff and the summer of 92 I spent cutting lawns and buying dwarves one blister pack at a time. The models from Battlemaster actually ended up as the base of a couple WHFB armies that I semi started over the years. Since I was also in a low income minority area (I'm of Mexican descent) and this was before NERD CULTURE became mainstream, I had NO ONE to play with or even talk about these things with. Even now...I still get almost debilitatingly excited whenever I see videos like this. Thank you, Jordan. I really love your content, man. I am very excited to watch this one but also a little nervous about all the memories it might dredge up...
edit: i also LOVE the sweater you are wearing in this video. I have a couple that look like it from Duluth trading co. but where are yours from?
Love your story , i can feel the enthusiasm of your childhood self and relate to it so much as a kid in eighties wales with no money and no shops sellling the stuff i love
I love your Battle Masters story! So much of it resonates with me. I also grew up in the Midwest, and was 10 years old when the game came out. So many good memories with it! It definitely opened the door to the wacky and wonderful world of Warhammer for me-one that otherwise would've likely remained closed.
My main memory of playing Battle Masters was the Ogre Champion standing in the open fields swinging his mace at no-one in particular! I would play it again in a shot though. Great video.
Same memory about my Ogre champion. 😂
Got it at goodwill a few years back. Cannibalized mercilessly for D&D; every miniature clipped, based on 1", and painted
"Like an Old World Midas, everything Jordan Sourcery touched turned into a unit from Marienburg."
The chaos miniatures formed the basis of my Warhammer army back in the day. I remember the GW staff taking the Mickey out of the Beastmen when I took it to games night in the shop, although being the cocky little teenager I was, I pointed out to them that they were still Citadel minis so they let me play on the table with them.
🤘😂
Thanks again a lot, Sire Jordan for this video and the amount of work it represents. You answered to a question I asked myself, somewhere around Fall 1994. I was bored a sunday at my grandparents place and tried to imagine on paper what would look like a Battlemaster with Space crusade models. Now, 35 years later, I learn that it existed in paper also. Jeez, I too would love have seen that. And what a shame Battlemasters never got its proper expansion with giant and Wizzards. 😅
The Empire Reinforcements Box formed the core of my Empire army when I started playing and I still use the archers and cannon to this day.
Oh yes, this is what directly got me into Warhammer/Warhammer 40k (Heroquest didn't hurt either but that wasn't really the same as Battlemasters). I got this for Christmas around age 12/13 and while I only played a handful of games, I really liked it and was actively on the lookout for other GW products which I dove into head first about a year later.
I loved BM. The empire miniatures went on to be the basis of my empire army. Still have them. Happy days
It was my gateway. I still have a massive 4th edition Empire army that I'm finally getting round to painting 25 years later because of it. Memories of playing it on the floor of our tiny holiday house in rural Australia will always stay with me. Thanks for the great video as always.
I still have this game with almost all of the pieces.
I managed to find a replacement copy about a month ago and have gone into full nostalgia mode! I'm over half way through painting the chaos army and while the minis are limited by today's standards, my painting has improved from my efforts in the 90's, so it's turning out all right. I plan to use this at the school club I run and hope the kids enjoy it as much as I did back in the day.
Excellent video! A huge fan of Battle masters as a kid. My friend and I after Christmas put both of our mats together for a huge battle and doubled up our armies for an epic clash. Definitely an introduction for me into the world of table top wargaming. Thanks for making this video. Made my day. Keep up the awesome content !
This was a total gateway drug for me. My parents got it for me my freshman year of high school. By '94, I was a GW Fanatic.
Ah I had battle masters.... I think I only played it twice, but those minis fleshed out my early Empire army. that cannon is still in the troop case, red and blue.
Fantastic set of videos! Has given me some serious nostalgia of playing Hero Quest with my mum and dad back in the early 90's, off to watch the episode on Battle Wizards.
As a reader of 2000AD, I was happy to see the art within the manual was done by artist Ron Smith.
I could imagine the 40k Battlemasters right now with a rhino that has two hollow plastic sides/tracks sandwiching a cardboard insert that forms the main body of the vehicle.
Thanks for the review! I played this with a nephew when it came out. He loved it so much I gave him my copy...never to be seen again.
Later in life, I was an enthusiastic Warhammer Fantasy player for about a decade, then the End of Times ruined everything and I stopped! Warhammer The Old World was launched this year and I am excited to get back playing again. I repurchased a mint condition copy of Battle Masters on Ebay for a pretty penny a few years ago hoping to surprise him with a game when he comes to visit, but it's still sitting on the shelf since that hasn't happened yet. Maybe it will still happen someday!
Excellent vid. As a teen BM was a fantastic way to build up various forces for playing WFB cheaply. GW prices have always been out of whack in AUS/NZ. So it was tremendous value for players especially the tower which I still use.
"Claymore Saga" in Germany. Brought me to the hobby. Together with Hero Quest.
Still have it. Still love it 🥰
Part of my childhood, Heroquest, Space Crusade and this Battle Masters. MB games were awesome and was my initiation to GW years later.
Did I hear you mentioned on The Painting Phase this week? Can’t wait for them to have you on their show!
I remember playing this, was so much fun!
This was my gateway into gaming as a 9/10 year old. I loved the game, it was amazing to get it out and take over a floor space with the matt. I remember getting frustrated with the card activation system at times but there was nothing better than using the cannon and seeing the ball bounce through enemy units. I still have a few bits of the game, including the matt, tower and a handful of orcs but much of the rest was either damaged by young me or went missing in the mists of time.
Battlemaster lives on in my 25 Battlemaster Khornegors used I used in 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th WHFB and have been rebased and used in AoS.
I and my brothers have fond memories of this game. We made a few house rules to make it more interesting and strategic. Thanks for making this. Great video!
Thank you for the vid.👍🏼 I have two and joined them together so four can play. I have played it every yr since it came out, then with my son and now with my grandsons…. Always fun !!!
That is the purpose of the game anyways… 😁👍🏼
Flipping loved battle masters as a kid. I still use the tower in my games of AOS
My local game store still has one of these amongst their many terrain pieces.
I never played it as a kid but found a second-hand copy to play with my kids. It took ages to set-up, but they absolutely loved it! I'm sure it helped that their chaos ogre shreked half my army before they even got to move... then my great cannon spoke wiping out some of his units while also wounding mine on the way past! what a game!
My best friend still has (multiple kopies by now) HeroQuest and we both have the BattleMasters game.
My set has always been kept in his original format for playing the game like it was intended. His copy on the other hand has been used to expand the HeroQuest Miniatures pool and have been set on inividual bases!
Excellent intro. Bought this when I was a teen and never even clipped the models off the sprues. Might be time to play it after all this time.
I bought a copy a few years ago after a vague memory of it at an after school club when I was a kid. My daughter and I have played it quite a few times recently. She turned 5 a few months ago and fancied trying it out. It's simple, silly and she loves the cannon and ogre! It also helps that she's beaten me twice. Nothing puts a smile on her face like laying waste to my forces thanks to her amazing dice throwing skills!
Ever considered painting the miniatures? Trust me, that will make you(and your daughter) love the game even more! If you are interested i can provide you with some advanced (but yet simple and easy) rules to make the game more strategic. These rules won't be too difficult for your daughter to use.
🥰🥰🥰
wowww the memoriees!!! in one birthday I was given by my familty (w/o knowing!) 2 Battle Masters! After that, MAgic and Warhammer stole all my money
BM was the first of the collaborations I got as a kid (for Christmas, to be followed quickly by HeroQuest for my birthday). I loved the game but rarely played it since setup took so long. Between BM and Fireball Island, I had a couple of massive maps from which to plan my childhood adventures.
I revisited both HQ and BM in high school with my RPG group. We even developed some of our own units, including a wizard and a dragon.
❤❤❤ Oh, how I loved this game! It's still my reference today if anyone wants a quick introduction to fantasy wargaming. So easy to understand and quick to play.
I once found my Battle Masters box again.
With spare parts from the flea market I was able to complete it again over the years...and now it is my ambition to finish painting the complete game with the expansions by the time I retire...😅
Strangely enough, the game was renamed "Claymore Saga" here in Germany at the time and completely removed from the Warhammer universe and given new terminology and lore...I was only able to see the connection with Warhammer Fantasy much later.
I still have all these miniatures and have used them in many an army. The tower has seen numerous assaults and the battle matt cut into indivdual hexagons so it could be used in modual fashion. At the time it came out that tower was cutting edge terrain.
Many fond memories of this game and I have 40 wolf riders as I traded with mates because we all bought a copy. The ogres are a part of my current ogre horde and the champions which were huge are the commanders of my army...Larg and Knot Larg. Both have seen considerable conversions.
I’ve owned and cut up many of these over the years to make Warhammer armies. I still have several of the mats.
My gateway into Warhammer fantasy. I was still using these minis 10 years later when I gave up WFB. I only played it a few times, but everything from the tower, to the terrain bits, to of course the units were used and reused.
I actually find these videos hard to watch. Not because Jordan isn't an excellent narrator, historian and editor. Jordan: You are superb. But because the nostalgia is so strong, tangiable and raw I get flooded with memories of battling my Dad on my bedroom floor in the 90s as a kid. And when I got into Warhammer circa '98, using these as stand-ins across games. We used the BM Ogre model as a Troll for an Orc warband in Mordhiem. If BM came out in '92, that's around ten years of these models kicking around my life. Lovely vid.
Hell yes! I got this for Christmas back in the day and I was in love!
Used to play it with my family and my next door neighbour.
Luckily at the time we had a big lounge with alot of floor space.
Great video, as always!! I will include it in our must-watch video list in Ye Olde Inn forum, next to the other ones already placed there from your channel. Thanks a lot, you have shared lots of so interesting info about Battle Masters, but also about the rest of MB/GW collaborations. Just one minor comment: I missed in the video a brief mention about three different versions of the BM game exist: the European, the American and the Japanese. All three have the same rules, except the Japanese which has a couple of minor differences. Aesthetically, American and European are different, and the Japanese one is a mixture of both. Nevertheless, as a lover of HeroQuest and other SB's games history, of course I fell really happy after watching this video. THANKS!!
This was my gateway game. There was promotional materials inside of the box set from GW that you could mail in and get a free copy of White Dwarf. From this box set my friends and I played Chaos Warriors, Orcs and Goblins, and Empire. When I got the 4th Edition Box Set, we could include High Elves. Great product!
This was one I always wanted but never owned. Great video.
these are really high-end videos...respect ;)
LOVED this game as a kid. Loved Heroquest as well. I've recently bough another couple of copies to play with a younger generation. so many minis to paint! We used some for an Orc/Goblin army with warhammer
I loved this game! I remember playing as imperials against my brother. Skipping cannon balls across the map! Loved this game, hadn’t known it was a GW game at all. Years later playing 40k, I realized these were the same concept.
Ahhh, another game I saw on the shelves but didn't pick up. I feel like that's a common refrain from me on this channel, along with the inevitable wish I HAD picked up a copy. This would have been a lot of fun to play with my friends. And it would have been even more fun to live in the universe where the Warhammer 40K Battle Masters was released....ah well. At least I had HeroQuest!
And modern HeroQuest, which seems to own my soul and my wallet these days...
Amazing video as ever, Jordan. Thanks so much!
Same..... at least my wallet anyway. I really wish I could get my hands on that exclusive Guardian Knight mini, but there is no way im paying the scalper costs on Ebay. Guess I'll just have to live with the alternate sculpt that comes with RotDM.😂
For me that was Mordheim. I kept seeing it on the shelf and thought, ah, maybe later, and later slowly turned into never. We're playing Mordheim now and it's been a lot of fun.
@@christopherjakel1049 I feel your pain, friend, I was so mad when I found out about the Guardian Knight...all too long after it was being scalped on Ebay. *sigh*
Great video! Brings back a LOT of memories!! 😊👍 Thanks!
Good stuff, thanks for the video about this great game!!
Battle Masters was the perfect game for this 10-year-old Midwestern kid with a burgeoning interest in fantasy circa 1992. Many an epic battle was fought on the floor with that giant mat-which somehow managed to survive in my care for more than 30 years! That game opened the door for me to the wacky and wonderful world of Warhammer fantasy-something I would likely have never discovered without it.
Wow, great video! So glad you finally got to do this. I love this game. My fave battle is the "Battle of the plains" where due to heavy fog you set up using face down unit markers which you turn over at the end of deployment. Usually only to find out that you placed your ogre two tiles away from, what you tought would be nice squishy bowmen but infact turned out to be, the canon!
There are some hidden complexities in the simple mechanics that give BM a bit more re-playability, and rely more on player skill. Yes, the deck is random, but the frequency and combinations of activations in the deck give each unit attributes that are more fine-tuned than the coarse-grained combat strengths. The chaos player has a 'traffic jam' problem to solve, and the empire player needs to prioritise targets carefully. If they don't work their problem out then even a lucky player will usually get beaten by a good player. Looking forward to playing my copy of BM with my son :) Great video, I really enjoyed it!
Battlemasters was a few easy rules changes away from being Battlelore or Battlecry, also known as the Commands & Colours series. If you want a 'grown up' version of Battlemasters, try any one of the Commands & Colors games.
Outstanding! I never knew of the depth of this game. I ended up with a partial bit of this game, I dont remember how. But I still have the battle mat and the tower. Great stuff Jordan!❤
Rick Swan's review observes that BM was positively begging for customisation and house rules, and was worth buying as a stock of playing pieces you could use to experiment and demo with for that purpose. The copy my gaming club bought ended up with a manilla folder full of suggestions and errata in the box - that was the real fun to be had here.
I was the only kid I knew that had this game. Unfortunately I got it for Christmas right after we moved to a neighborhood with no kids my age. I would end up playing both sides most of the time. I really liked it, though, and streamlined and customized the rules constantly to change things up. It’s amazing such an ambitious board game for kids was even made!
These were the first Citadel miniatures I owned but my introduction to Warhammer came much later, because I'm from Germany and here they completely changed the back story to make it less "grimdark"! The game was called "Claymore Saga" here and the story was about Celtic lords and an evil demon-summoning druid, even back in the day I felt this was weird considering the visuals...
Ja, meine Eltern hatten sich damals lange geweigert, das Spiel zu kaufen, wegen dem etwas "martialischen" Werbespot...😂
@@mahari7285 Kenn ich so ähnlich auch :D Meine waren zwar bei Fantasy toleranter, aber schwieriger war's wenn irgendwie Schusswaffen im Spiel waren...
Me and my brother got this from out father after he'd made a trip to Germany (we live in Sweden), and it was called Die Claymore Saga! We managed to learn the rules somehow, and played it a few times, but it was more impressive due to the size than the actual game, probably. I don't remember if we had Hero Quest before of after this, but it definitely set me on the Warhammer road.
I just bought a new copy this winter for myself. Noble Nights in WI. My gf and I have a very small house so I have not been able to set it up and play yet. So excited to break it out sometime. I loved playing it at Christmas with my uncles.
It amazes me that noone has re-released Space Crusade yet, on how well Hero Quest has done
I can only assume it’s a rights issue, as I agree it seems perfect for a remake
I still have battle masters, hero quest and space hulk, from when they were first released. still game with them with my own grand kids.
As a young teen this game was one of those where I actually wanted something, but at the price point there were so many other things chipping away at what I could realistically ask for.
I still have my copy, nice!
Gosh this channel is quickly becoming a favorite. Awesome stuff!
I had this and Heroquest. I still love the way they did canons
I was working at games workshop when this was released. Great times.
I wanted this game so badly and was obsessed with it before I knew what warhammer was, when I got it though it fell victim to the curse of all mat based games as you needed a massive board to permanently attach it to or it would never lie flat
Another big punch for us getting miniatures in mass getting these at a toy store sale for about $30 a box 🙂On the back of collecting RPGs, miniatures and all the associated gear (Heroquest and Space Crusade multiples) the gateway was set for our group. Cheers 👍
I spent soooo many hours of my childhood playing this game.
Still a proud owner of my copy of BM! Half the miniatures are in bad shape, half of the good ones have found a new home in one of my Warhammer Fantasy armies... but i still play it with my daughter!
Hahaha, Love it. I walked into the local Toys R Us early 1993 and they were selling the Battle Masters for 5 dollars a pop. I bought 6 and had two full Fantasy Armies immediately. :D
Great video. You forgot one little mechanic detail! Each unit had a small chit representing them. One of the scenarios that was part of the campaign was to set up units secretly with the chits face down then reveal them. It was a great and easy way to add hidden setup to the game.
I still have this downstairs and we played it all the time when my kids were younger. The simplistic rules really helped with the younger kids and as envisioned, started them on their journey into WHFB or WH40k. My old Empire army for WHFB was mostly these models. Somehow during all of our moves, we lost the playmat for this but luckily I found a used one at my local gaming store a few years ago. I would have loved a 40k version of this. Games like this held the kids' interest and minimized thier time on video games. I used these and the old Tyranid Attack / Space Hulk minis to teach the kids how to paint and we still have a few around yet that they did when they were 6 and 8, they're a sight to behold. :)
I love Heroquest. While not my favorite game, it is the game that got me into tabletop games that are beyond mainstream games like Monopoly, Scrabble, or LIFE. I had spent the last few years getting complete copies of the 1989 version and all expansions and now have the full 2021 version and all expansions. I think there is a strong chance this will be hitting the table tomorrow. It's about time to get back into a legacy game.
Are those 5 Imperial Crossbowmen on a Battle Masters base in the background?! I think they are! I remember making the connection between the world of Warhammer and Heroquest/Battle Masters years after playing them both and, naturally, enjoy Warhammer to this day.
My Warhammer Fantasy Battles Empire army still has Mounted knights and Men at Arms in it from Battle Masters. 🤣 And my Chaos Warband for Mordheim has the BM Ogre... 😁 My friends and I played BM with all sorts of homebrew rules, like alternating activation instead of the cards, as well as morale rules, fear, cannon misfires. 😁 Great game for the age it arrived! I still have the playmat rolled up in an old paper tube somewhere as well...
That is so weird you released this I was just reminded of this game recently and was looking at used copies on eBay!!
Perhaps it's a sign!
This makes me want to bust out the box and play a game of Battle Masters this weekend. I still have never played the fifth and final scenario in the rule book…. 🤔
Never played this game. But I do own the game. Half the contents are missing though. Thanks for the share!!
I think the biggest hurdle this had to success was one of its selling points - the playmat. If it had been smaller, more reasonably sized, it could have been more of a winner. It's a great idea in theory and it does look impressive when all decked out but I can see why it wasn't a hit.
But in a sense you can see a sort of spiritual successor in BattleLore, a fantasy wargame played on a board with minis using a card based system to determine movement. BattleLore in many ways shows Battle Masters what it perhaps could have, maybe even should have, been.
Loved this game. Have a ravaged box somewhere in storage, hope to recreate it someday.
holy shit! as a flashback from early childhood, I think I remember this game at some friends house
The brothers who lived down the road from me were the only folk I knew who actually had this one. My overwhelming memory of it was a time when the oldest brother was playing against the youngest. He fired his cannon and it went to it's full range, smashing through a couple of units and then killing (the ogre if memory serves). The youngest, who was known for his foul temper went absolutely f'ing ballistic and stormed off in tears.
I genuinely believe the older brother had deliberately shuffled the cards when the younger wasn't looking. Dick move to be sure, but bloody funny.
Loved this game as a kid; that ogre could be a massive brute or be injured enough to only walk around.
First video of yours I've seen,what great delivery.
Thank you!
Thank you!
@@jordansorceryHi, I'm looking for board games that you can conquer and attack the castle in siege style, you can also throw boiling oil, rocks as defenses, etc... If you know of any, you can list them here please. I await your response, thank you
I had BM in the early 90s as a kid, unfortunately I didn't have anyone to play with.
I had this! I have been struggling to remember what it was called. I’m not sure I ever played it more than once, but I used to sit and paint the pieces with my dad on a Saturday afternoon. I was shit at painting, but being an artist He made the ogre champion look amazing. I’ve now just started painting again at the age of 40, starting with a 40k terminator squad. Huge waves of nostalgia watching this and seeing the pieces and pictures!
Oh! He did Heroscape too? Damn. I remember playing around with both game systems when I was a wee lad. Was too young to really bother with the actual game, but I had a lot of fun with it.
I remember getting this for Christmas one year and I wish I had fond stories of kicking off my love of wargaming, but the problem with where my location was in the U.S. we just didn't have any hobby game stores in my area. GW had virtually no presence and I think I was too young to understand that we could just have mail ordered all this stuff... because my gosh, I would have probably asked for all the GW greats like Man o' War, Space Fleet, etc. instead of trying to backtrack my collection... Anyway, I truly loved Battle Masters as a kid, sadly it got severely water damaged in a flood of the basement, but since I had everything in plastic packages and the game mat being plastic all that cleaned up nicely and it is just the box that appears to be severely ruined. Maybe someday I will track down a cheap copy of the box in decent condition. I loved the fact that it took up the ENTIRE living room carpet as a play area! I really should try to pull this game out this Christmas and play a game with my girlfriend at my mom's house, because I don't have the space at my own to lay out that entire mat hahahah
I didn't get the expansions, but did get a second box to add my own units, also played around with dividing the deck in half and alternating drawing to make it less swingy, and to make it more tactical I added a dice mechanism with 6 being whole army, 1 being any 1 unit, and 2-5 being any unit of that combat value, both options are a ton of fun. added an ogre dice option using other 6 dice, skull attack, blank move, shield stay, and removing 1 die per wound. with an alternative using the heroquest dice instead of ogre cards being almost the same as above skull for attack, white shield to move towards an empire unit, and black shield to channel chaos and heal 1 wound.
I also played out the hq ending of the campaign and Keller's keep on the battle masters board, and later did it again on a massive scale. making battles in between quests and linking the traiter in the battle master campaign to sir ragnar. plus a few extra rules to attach a hero or villain to a unit. other custom stuff. the chaos army has a chaos cannon, and empire army now has the corpse eater as an ogre on their side thanks to cursed city. I still paint random battle master minis and post them in discords and reddit. We always have fun playing.
Recently got hold of the empire half of battle masters and plan to add these to my older Empire army eventually
I never got this game, I had heroquest, and space crusade, but I may have already started to go down the gw rabbit hole by the time this came out. P.S It was nice meeting you today Jordan at Dragonmeet, btw it’s James I was the one who told you where to find Mira.
Good stuff, love this game.
Yea looking back on this it was a huge swing. Almost kind of silly really but you've got to admire the ambition of turning a war game into something so simple and comprehensive.
Aaah I loved playing Battle Masters with my parents! I never did paint all the minis, and what I did paint was awful, but I had to start somewhere. Took until 2023 for me to finally dive into 40K, though. I tried WH Fantasy 20 years ago, but it was a bit too overwhelming.
I still have my Space Crusade and add ons!!😊😊😊😊My Heroquest I lent out and never got back. So yes, I bough the Hasbro one as a Kickstater. Battlematers I did not get into as I was already playing Warhammer.
me and my friend john played this everyday i loved it i still have my Weapons and Warriors set
I have 3 copies; specifically gotten to build my WH Fantasy Empire army (with some rebasing). Still have it all.