I remember once reading that fandom makes content for what they think the show lacks. I think half the lifeblood of Sterek is how much the audience wanted Derek's traumatic backstory to be taken seriously lmao. Like he is explicitly sexually assaulted as a teen by an adult woman who uses him to murder his entire family. And the show neeeeever seems to consider how his hostile behavior, his weird relationship with teens, and his obsession with forming a pack could have sprung from his history. If there's one thing the Sterek fandom does, it's try to take care of Derek emotionally lmao. And who better to take care of him than the goofy fan favorite boy who has protected him in canon, has a fun dynamic with him, and also has lost family and been taken advantage of to harm people around him. whump.
I would second this. I feel like everything in the essay was on point, but would note that I felt it missed that in the beginniner there were a fair number of women and gay men who projected on to Derek for these exact reasons even if he was more "traditionally masculine."
You are completely spot on. There was a period of my life where reading (and sometimes writing lol) Derek whump/hurt-comfort was a daily event, and the more a fic foregrounded the actual genuine trauma he went through that the show glossed over, the better. I certainly enjoyed the Derek and Stiles dynamic, but I probably would have read fic with any pairing or no pairing at all as long as it engaged with this element in some way - Sterek just happened to be the ship that did this the most (or this was the case simply by virtue of it being the biggest ship)
Absolutely true. My bb son Derek --- pls take care of him. 😂 Teen Wolf fandom has Derek the same way Supernatural fandom has Dean and then later on Cas as characters who need care and affection and aren't getting them from the plot of the show.
Just wanted to pop in and remind people that someone, somewhere, was supremely out of touch because at one point during the show run there was an article, or maybe a poll, (I think it was done by MTV, but don’t hold me to that) on favorite Derek ships and Kate/Derek was an option 🤢
Derek is so unintentionally hilarious, he’s always just lurking around High schools and the shadows, he never seems to be doing any sort of job and it’s implied he just hangs around in his burnt down house whenever he’s not creeping around the halls of a high school😭😭😭
How does he make money??? Since he lives in his old, burnt down house or a weird abandoned train station(?) or the forest idfk, I guess he doesn't need rent money but like... dude still needs to buy groceries, right?
adding to sterek being a perfect storm of early 2010s trends - the post twilight supernatural teen media formula was “socially awkward human in love with a dark brooding supernatural creature”. like, subconsciously something sterek-esque was The Way the core audience was taught to engage in stories like teen wolf
let me tell you how absolutely gobsmacked I was when I found out Stiles and Derek weren’t the main characters. I had no idea that Scott McCall even existed. to quote Keke Palmer, “Sorry to this man.”
As an avid Sterek reader I definitely knew about Scott cause he's pretty much Stiles's brother, but I can't imagine him being a main character, he's too boring.
That was a big problem I had with the Sterek fandom, years ago I started following a lot of girls in Tumblr that really like sterek but would either completely ignore Scott or demonize him, and as someone that watched must of Teen wolf seeing that was crazy because Scott was a really nice, kind and great guy and friend. And the funny thing is that now those same girls are all politically correct and woke saying how there aren't enough people of color in media and bla bla bla, but we had a brown boy as a protagonist and not only did they ignore him but they straight up made him the villain many times in their fanfiction (Edit: sorry if this comment is so long and sorry if it has bad grammar, my first language is not English)
i stopped watching a long time ago and it just boggles my mind Scott is the main character?? Stiles had a lot more charisma imo. Scott felt like wallpaper
If all it takes to not see the gates is eye winking at a ship that involved adult actors - than your god is fucked. My god is not fucked - my god has a bigger dick than your god.
As a straight man, I find these takes on Stiles interesting. I saw him as my self insert as well, he is the embodiment of male insecurities and the perfect analog for the awkward picked on kid that I was in high school. I'm glad other folks could identify with him in their own way. He's definitely the most interesting character on the show, well, to me anyway, and he always felt like the proxy for the audience in a show full of unrealistic archetypes.
came for the sterek nostalgia, stayed for the shockingly astute insight that stiles is the female audience surrogate. now to apply this lens to supernatural
I think dean and castiel take turns appealing to the female audience simply because dean is very eldest daughter core (and also bisexual) and castiel is more traditionally fem coded
@@SakiBlablabla I remember going back and forth between CNN live reporting on voting results and the internet and seeing so many memes. I don’t think I’d ever felt anything like that night before or since.
I mean honestly if they can just hand-wave resurrecting Allison (with almost no effort) then sure. Literally why not? Either mpreg or like they had to visit the fairy realm together and peed on the same tree and accidentally made a baby or something? Wouldn't even be crazier than all the other stuff going on.
I don’t know how people came to that conclusion honestly 😭 The real and shallow answer is just that Davis copy-pasted Stiles’ personality onto Eli because Dylan O’Brien declined to join the project.
One more thing: I remember in another review of the terrible movie, the UA-camr openly wondered where Derek's son came from, and one commenter jokingly replied "Stiles mpreg" which... I mean, A) The kid is Stiles-coded down to the last detail, B) there is not even the barest hint of who the mother might be, if she even exists and C) most of the funeral is devoted to telling Eli how much Derek cared about Stiles' jeep, as if the fucking car is Stiles-by-proxy. Like, I feel deranged for even bringing it up but... Jeff Davis, what other conclusions would you have us draw? Why are you encouraging us to even entertain this? We will never be free of the psychic damage.
I've only observed this series from afar but also don't really care about spoilers, but I gotta say, not only is Derek having a surprise plot twist son... something, but also, the fact that the answer to the immediate question of "Who's his son's mom" ends up beiNG STILES?????/ POSSIBLY???/?? LMAO????/?BFHDFGBHJF & like. Not that gay parenting or mpreg itself as a concept are inherently just comedic or anything of course, but its just that it was jokingly commented by someone on UA-cam which is what led you to think about it and realize they might actually be onto something, even if unintentionally. But also, it's just crazy that they would imply something like that after so long of having not actually made the ship canon, y'know? Like, oh, yeah, they're super close, and maybe we can imply they ✨really like✨ each other & all, but there's only going to be insinuations there. (Bc yknow, gotta make sure not to lose those homophobic viewers or anything, since that just means less money, amirite? 🙄) But then all of a sudden the movie comes around and the showrunners are like "Ok yeah we're STILL not TECHNICALLY confirming anything one way or the other but here's some heavy implications that these two literally had a child together. And possibly even biologically for that matter because magical werewolf biology or something. Kthxbai 😘🐺"
@@feliciaroseantonia well, Dylan O'Brien declined to be in the movie after Arden Cho wasn't invited back to participate (good for him for standing up for her, cuz production did her dirty even back in the show), so there's that.... The whole production was a disaster, and apparently the script was rewritten multiple times (including DURING shooting), and then the final cut was just sort of slapped together, so who knows what was in the original script that included Stiles as a character (he was clearly intended to play a significant part, especially considering it was a continuation of the Nogitsune storyline), but I get what you're saying. I didn't _hate_ the movie, but it was quite obvious that the issues behind the scenes messed a lot of stuff up 🤷
random theory: the kid is actualy Stiles son, but Dareck adopted. i have no idea if they said anything about Stiles in the movie, if he is alive, dead or whatever.
@@J_Mock92I don't disagree with anything you said, I just thought it's funny that you seem so shocked by script rewrites during filming when the LOTR trilogy had constant script rewrites well into filming and ostensibly throughout filming and is considered one of the greatest film trilogies of all time.
@@vannalaws1692 oh, I'm not shocked by script rewrites at all. I'm well aware that they're commonplace in the industry. What isn't as common however, is for complete script overhauls after filming is well on its way. Rewrites and adjustments happen all the time of course, but filming scenes in the midst of extensive rewrites that change the entire plot of the film (which apparently happened with the Teen Wolf movie) isn't normal.
I’m sorry, the “a little lost boyfriend, with no one to love” while his picture just shrinks on screen absolutely took me out. that is the funniest thing, I am still giggling like an idiot. I have never even watched teen wolf. 😭 this is just so entertaining.
@@stolenrelic I couldn't even do that with clear conscience lol. I've tried to rewatch the show on like 5 different occasions but I genuinely cannot stand a full episode 😭 I kind of respect 13 year old me for being able to binge watch it AND pay full attention to the plot
Right?? It seems so obvious now lol. And she's so right, it was a WILD misstep to intentionally create a Damon-esque fan-bait character **without a love interest** like what were they thinking??
jeff davis's mind would not be able to comprehend this video, it's too powerful. also speaking of jeff davis, interesting that he created both spencer reid and stiles stilinski, characters that are basically variations on the same character, and one was supposed to be bi, but got shut down and the other is stiles lmao, like there is something there maybe.
it's really hard to tell what was going on in his mind lol. he was clearly okay with including gay and even bisexual characters/relationships, but I think maybe he resented Sterek for being something he didn't come up with that got more popular than the things he did come up with? I don't think he should've made it canon, but it's interesting that that seems like his motivation for not doing so (not the age gap or anything). also I'd say he had problems.... writing women. to say the least
I genuinely think that between Jeff Davis, Stephen Moffat and Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa there are serious grounds for a study into why it's always gay men who end up delivering us shows with the most spiteful queerbait, comphet and women written only as sexualised props for the male characters. Like, there's enough data points to form a trend, right?
@@neivilde.1242 I thought about lumping him in, but I've never watched Glee, though everything I've heard of him indicates his track record of LGBT representation is a bit spotty
@@finnac89 it's weird with his works, i can't say everything is him, but there is definite when you watch his stuff, like a lot of good but also a lot of bad so its like, is it intentional or ignorance i can never tell
i've been saying for years how unfortunate it is that the show heavily implied derek was like 19 in the pilot episode and only launched the idea of him being in his mid twenties AFTER a bunch of queer kids got insanely attached to the ship 😭 by that point, the ship (no pun intended) had already sailed
Very much this. In the pilot, Stiles is 16, Derek is ‘a couple of years older’, 19-20(?) well within R&J laws. If I recall even as late as s2-3 the age gap being closer to perhaps 6-10 was not yet known. To judge people for shipping something that age range when the show later says ‘surprise, it’s predatorily large!’ is pretty disingenuous. For another reference, it’s like calling Claire/Peter shippers (from Heroes) fans of incest when the entire first season went by without the audience knowing they were related.
@@kahare9565 I could have gone another few years without being reminded of the Claire/Peter ship that I used to love before the revelation. It didn't help that the actors were also dating irl! Their chemistry was amazing and then boom, the show runners went "they are blood relatives, go away you nasty pervert" without both actors changing anything about their acting.
@@elizabethannnaYT entirely possibly. I remember ‘ship-gate’ (the tv choice awards commercial) and among older fans it was clearly bait. Many newer fans thought things like ‘if we vote for TW surely they will know how big support for Sterek is!’ which was the point of baiting them. Queer money spends just as good and giving that audience subtext while ignoring it enough to let normies not even know it exists is THE best fiscal strategy.
@@kahare9565 another factor to consider is how many of those fans were kids around stiles' age themselves! i really don't blame anyone of any age who got jumpscared with the age gap, but *especially* when it's teenagers, the response to that information obviously isn't going to be "oh no, this ship is problematic now, so i will abandon it." they're already attached and they themselves probably have unrealistic and inflated perceptions of their own maturity. the knee jerk reaction from them is much more likely to be justification- "but their age doesn't matter, because stiles is very smart and mature and they're SOULMATES who are perfect for each other!" i myself was around 16/17 when season 3a started, and i have to admit that the age gap wasn't even an issue in my mind. i even clearly remember thinking everybody was being dramatic in sterek fics where it was used as a plot point- because i was 16, and thought i was mature enough, so obviously stiles would be too 😭
Stiles is also the only like actually fleshed out characters that stays a human so of course most of the human population would gravitate towards him first.
yupp same! dunno yet fully if I am aroace, but I never pictured myself into ships/fanfics - i genuinely just love their relationship and love story :D no place for me - just giggling and loving the love
This exactly. I don't want anything to do with any of that but I like shipping characters together, especially if the canon is too much of a coward to do it.
It's the middle of 2024 and we're STILL having sterek discourse ON UA-cam. This ship that never sailed (except it did, Jeff sailed it and pretends he didn't) will never die.
I think that queer shippers of sterek and other popular tumblr ships of the era between two men also are seeking the representation of a complex, ever changing, slow-burn dynamic that was not often an option for on-screen queer couples within the genre of network teen television. It is very rare to see the sort of rollarcoaster-ish complicated relationship format that straight fictional teens would experience with on-screen queer couples. These pairings often had quite cut and dry relationship storylines - to put it simply they were boring. So it makes sense that queer teens looking for an engaging relationship storyline in a genre geared towards them would grasp at straws to create their own.
Also Derek is definitely Angel from Buffy. Dark and broody morally ambiguous guy with a tragic backstory who is also a deeply strange awkward man with no job or purpose beyond kind of skulking around a high school? Angel to a T.
Exactly! The moment she mentioned the Buffy inspiration, a made the connection between the two, I mean it was so obvious. The only difference here, as we see, is that Angel is also a Love Interest character. Really weird limbo Derek was put in by comparison
I don't doubt it! I might have made that comparison instead of Damon if I were more familiar with Buffy, but alas I have only seen part of the first season
@@jane-mulcahy Is this the part where I recommend Buffy lol? It may be deeply flawed, parts of it definitely haven't aged well, and a whole seven seasons long, but it's also probably my favorite show of all time, and it is absolutely the blueprint for the Teen Wolf / Vampire Diaries genre.
@@nsb144I've been meaning to watch it forever, I know it probably influenced all the other supernatural teen shows to come after. I just haven't gotten around to it yet, I honestly don't usually watch a lot of tv! (contrary to what you might think based on me making a million videos about Teen Wolf and Degrassi....)
thats immediately what i thought of first too!! especially those shots of him just watching the characters creepily from a distance in his silly little leather jacket. It's 100% season 1 Angel
The writers not making this ship canon is a classic example of sterek hindrance (i promise this is funny if you know organic chemistry you're just gonna have to trust me)
Very insightful! As an established teen wolf scholar[tm] myself, i am so fascinated by how the sterek fandom almost started to exist independently of the show. I know anecdotally of people who are fans of sterek without having seen the show, but only reading fanfic and engaging with the fandom. I feel like that has become even more prevalent after the show ended.
Yeah exactly that, I'm getting tons of comments from people saying they didn't even watch the show but got into Sterek fanfics anyway. Apparently some people consume it completely separate from the source material?? I love that
This is so true omg. I remember stumbling on Sterek on Ao3 from tumblr and friends getting into the show/ship, but never actually watching the show until like three years later lol. Even funnier, I read so much Sterek fanfics even after the show was finished, but I have only ever seen up until the beginning of Season 3A. So all these characters from Season's 4-6 I had no idea who they were when they showed up in my fics! Tbh it was kind of crazy how the ship pretty much eclipsed the show, to the point where you could be someone like me who had very little knowledge of the source material but still be invested. Sterek still holds a special place in my heart tbh and I still read fics from time to time.
There’s just so many talented writers that love sterek, I’ve moved from the teen wolf fandom ages and ages ago, but I still got some of those fics downloaded or bookmarked because they could very much be stand-alone stories. That’s the beauty of fandom and creativity.
I know you hit this in the video, but the actors portraying the characters being adults was a HUGE part of why Sterek shippers didn’t really care about the age gap. Couple that with how inconsistent the timeline of the show was… you’ve got a golden ship. Literally no one cared what Derek’s “final” age was supposed to be in the context of the ship. When you’re watching a show, it’s really easy to overlook the characters’ ages when the actors are adults themselves and look like it, especially if you’re around their age or younger than them. Dylan and Tyler H. are much closer in age than their characters, even more so than the actors who played Scott and Alison were when the show started. Characters are meant to represent humans but they aren’t literally human, you know? So, in a roundabout way, it feels like people were actually shipping Dylan and Tyler, just with the sandbox of a werewolf story to springboard fanfic and fanart off of. That probably explains why so much Sterek fanfiction is highly transformative and tends to gloss over their canonical ages (like, there are sooo many college and adult life Sterek au’s I can’t even count). There have been a lot of criticisms and downright hate floating around with people saying that shipping fictional characters with a questionable age gap implies predatory tendencies or harmful intentions toward actual minors and I don’t think that’s a fair argument. Engaging with fiction doesn’t necessarily reflect one’s beliefs or desires in real life, especially in cases like this where the actors representing the characters in the ship are adults and so close in age. Having said that, I was a Sterek shipper as an older teen/young adult, and the ship still holds a huge spot in my heart, but I can definitely see both sides and understand why some people might not have shipped it at the time due to the age gap. It’s still super interesting though how hard the showrunners leaned into the ship baiting despite it, though. Even the actors have said in hindsight that they were open to it and also acknowledged the ship baiting, probably because the timeline was so ambiguous and time jumps weren’t out of the question, so the ship being canon wasn’t an insane possibility (if you take out all the corporate nonsense that makes it hard to have canonically gay/bi main characters). Man… Sterek. What a time that was to be on Tumblr 😮💨
☝️☝️☝️ couldn't agree more. While I understand them, I do find arguments about fictional age-gaps often tend to be extremely reductive. It's like people criticizing (romance) writing that deals with dubious consent or straight-up non-con, and suggesting that it shows moral bankruptcy or failure in the writers or readers.... and I'm just over here like: no. it's make believe. it's a safe sandbox to play with ideas and concepts. it doesn't mean that someone wants that to happen in real life - or thinks that it's a morally justified thing to do out in the real world. people tend to be able to understand the difference between fiction and reality Sharon. lol anyway sorry for going off about that in a reply. I just think you're spot on! And even though I personally haven't revisited sterek for many, many years (and stopped watching the show after season 3) I still had a great time back then. and remember that messy social media blurring - where there were "cookies for sterek" campaigns and money donated to a Wolf sanctuary. When fans put their minds to something they really can move mountains.
SO true! Even when I read fanfics that didnt mention anything about the age-gap, in my mind I always pictured the actors as their ages at the time, considering they both looked like they were in their early to mid 20's. Most of, if not all the fics I read were college-aged Stiles or Derek and Stiles being the same age (in a kind-of funny, 'Derek being a high school dropout or home-schooled kid' kind of way lmao). Most Sterek fics were them aged up or in a AU type of situation. It also helped that I got into the ship and show when I was a little older, so I could avoid some of the discourse over age-gaps since 1. I can distinguish between fiction and reality and won't irl ship and 2. I wouldnt engage with that side of the fandom anyway.
Another thing to mention is that Stiles is extremely mature for his age and demonstrates a lot of adult behavior and mentality. This makes sense even in cannon, his mother died when he was young and his dad basically neglected him for a decent amount of time. Being very intelligent he was forced to grow up very quickly. Then when you add all the shit he goes through before 18 by being involved with the supernatural. It is no wonder why nobody cares for the age gap, as he has been through shit most adults never experience. In a way you can't call him a child even if he was not yet 18 years old, as it is insulting considering what he has been through.
@@cheshirecandy thisssss, and like I feel like that type of reductive thinking kinda forgets that there is a huge portion of shippers who aren't only thinking with their genitals. sure we might go for what looks hot but we will more often go for what makes an engaging story. sometimes you want a ship to be "problematic" because it makes for good narrative conflict or sometimes you even ship characters for the purpose of seeing two toxic people crash and burn and destroy each other. it's fun, it's compelling, it's character study, a thought experiment!
Supernatural and Sherlock are usually the big examples used when talking about queerbaiting (and for good reason) but I think I've never experienced a more blatant bait than the boat video
Yeah honestly Sherlock and SPN had absolutely nothing on Teen Wolf when it came to queerbaiting, it was so egregious (and I say that as someone who, as a teen, totally fell for it lmao. I literally had screencaps from the boat video as part of my tumblr theme, much to the everlasting shame of my present self)
i just want to tell everyone here that when i watched teen wolf, it was with my 40 year old canadian french carpenter stepdad when i was 16 and even that man supported sterek
followup: derek's job was being the local cryptid small children told their families horror stories about at the dinner table. do not diminish his contribution to the economy!
Ooo ooh I want to add a little bit re: age gaps in old fandom. I got into slash fanfiction with Kim Possible/Shego fanfic in like 2010, which has a similar age gap + issues to Sterek (I was like. 13.). I also ended up reading a lot of Sterek fanfic after I stopped caring about Supernatural (i was also a Sterek centrist in terms of actual shipping, but the quantity of fanfiction was massive). Like you said, fandom now takes a much more critical eye towards age gaps in relationships. But I would argue that a lot of older fanfiction didn't ignore age gaps, they were just as likely to recognize it and try to fix it in the fanon. Aging characters up/down was way more common in my experience. It didn't impact the plot of a fanfic too much to just say Derek or Shego was 19, and 19-16 and 19-17 are less weird age gaps since they could have been in school together, or they could just age up the HSers into adults. I feel as fandom as evolved that kind of thing is less accepted. Now people discourse about canon ages even though the high school characters don't act or look like HSers. (Not trying to defend one way or the other thats just my observation) Also, I think when people are teens they're more likely to think they are similar to adults. At age 13 I was definitely like "well theres not THAT much difference between 16 and 20" and as a 27 year old I'm like "that is a wild prospect"
Another thing is that many fans simply come from countries with a lower age of consent. In my country it is 15 and even though a relationship between a teenager and a guy in his early 20s might still be frowned upon, at least it's not illegal. I guess depending on the culture the viewer is from, such a relationship might be more socially accepted (whether or not we agree with it, hello cultural relativism). Also a fact that has not been mentioned in this video is that Derek had already been canonically involved in a relationship with a similar age gap, with Kate. And it was kind of glossed over, just as Lydia's weird thing with Parrish.
Speaking of problematic age-gaps in older fandoms. Im a bug fan of Downton Abbey - the most polar opposite fiction to Teen Wolf - it was only until recently that I was made aware that Mary and Mathew where 21 and 26 when they meet each other, which a bit weird. But not like, SUPER weird, cause they got together much later in life. But then I also realized, according to the wiki, Sybil was 17, and Tom was 27! Forbiden romance indeed!!! (Why did they make it like that??? Those where not the actors ages at the time!)
I totally agree! I read a lot of sterek fan fiction from 2012-2015 when I was in school and was still figuring out the reason I identified with/liked Stiles so much was bc of how queer coded he was. I have a very vivid memory of fics regularly addressing the age gap between Stiles and Derek by either aging up or down one of the characters, setting the story later in life, or by simply making the age gap the central conflict of the fic. It was something I became very used to seeing in the fandom at the time as someone who was on AO3 and tumblr a lot.
omg kim x shego had to have been my first queer ship as a literal baby. i remember being a kid and having a crush on shego and basically wanting the two of them together, but also not entirely understanding those feelings until i was in late elementary or early middle school (the latter was also the time i realized i was queer too, so there's that). and youre right, back when i was growing up, you generally would shift the ages of characters if you wanted them to be together. i dont think i had any ships that required that (not counting kim x shego, cause tbh im p sure little me thought they were about the same age), but i definitely saw it around.
Another thing to mention is that Stiles is extremely mature for his age and demonstrates a lot of adult behavior and mentality. This makes sense even in cannon, his mother died when he was young and his dad basically neglected him for a decent amount of time. Being very intelligent he was forced to grow up very quickly. Then when you add all the shit he goes through before 18 by being involved with the supernatural. It is no wonder why nobody cares for the age gap, as he has been through shit most adults never experience. In a way you can't call him a child even if he was not yet 18 years old, as it is insulting considering what he has been through.
I knew about sterek before I'd even watched Teen Wolf. Like it was always coming up for broad search terms on ao3, and I remember seeing one fanvid for tumblr fandoms around 2013 that referenced it. To the point where I assumed that Stiles and Derek were the two main characters of the show, and so when I actually watched Teen Wolf, and Scott came on screen, I went "who is that?" Shipping culture is wild (affectionate).
same. to the point I was very confused that Stiles wasn't the PM but also where did the Sterek come from because I wasn't seeing it. I can't really remember how/where I've heard about Sterek first - probably Tumblr -, I do know I was late to the party when I started to watch the show (I think S5 was just out?) so I wasn't there when TPTB used that pairing as bait. I've started to read TW fanfics because 1) well, Stiles, lol and 2) I wanted to understand the Sterek thing. Well, I converted fast XD TW the show is bad but a guilty pleasure. Sterek is my second OTP to this day.
@@Meanne77 I remember when the video came out and the collective fandom explosion tbh. Now as an older gay that knows better, I feel really disgusted that they used the fandom like that. It was common at the time tho for fandom creators to queerbait unfortunately :/ but Sterek was everywhere all over tumblr and ao3. The show is campy bad fun but the pairing is one of my all time faves even if the show didnt give them justice.
@jane-mulcahy it always is when you make a video on something, joking aside this was a very good breakdown also the ummmmm numbers on A03 went up since you put them together
I'm not gonna but I'm rereading the Hell out of "we thought we were going to die and didn't and now we're stuck with the confession" prompts let's goooo there is no moral samsara is not so badddd
Something I find fascinating is that the show implies homosexuality in most of its male (and a few female) characters. I always wondered why the discussion around Teen Wolf and queerbaiting never mention that the moments that gaybait the most aren't sterek, they're with like every male character. Scott especially. I think this video really explains why it was Sterek that caught people's attention and not Sciles or Idk, Danny x Scott
surely some of that was down to the showrunner Jeff Davis? i remember an early interview where he said that this world was set in a "post-homophobia world" which.... real unfortunate take given how it treated queer actors on the show (Colton Haynes) in early seasons... and also how it refused to have any main queer characters or engage with that at all in earlier seasons. I realize this was partly due to the times... the show got progressively more queer as it went on. But yeah... the showrunner seemed mighty conflicted about actually portraying any queer romance or relationships initially, playing it mostly for jokes... Suppose being a gay showrunner doesn't mean pushing for that stuff is a priority or comes easily....
Exactly! I feel like there’s a pretty big chance that the network played a big part in why there weren’t any queer main characters throughout the show. I remember Jeff Davis seeming really excited about the gay hookup scene with Danny when it aired! I could be wrong, but I get the impression that some (not all) of the queerbaiting seen on the show could very well be Jeff taking whatever opportunities that network would allow him to squeeze in some representation… it just didn’t work out very well lol.
Because the story is set within a "homophobic free" universe, which means that heteronormativity doesn't exist. The idea of a man being attracted to other men is just another option; more people are likely to be bi/pan because many queer people in our world are suppressed by (often) unconscious societal influences. But what Jeff doesn't get into is how cisnormativity, allonormantivity, and monogamy are also ingrained deep within our culture. All of these interact and feed off of one another. We don't just live in a homophobic society, we live in a queerphobic one. Anything that deviates from the norm (cis, hetero, allo, monogamous) is considered "other," different. Queer. Not to mention racism but that's for another time. If you want to create a queer-friendly universe, you must make it queer-friendly for ALL of us.
I never really understood this ship when the show was airing and even now, looking back the ship didn't really have a solid foundation unlike let's say the Buddie ship does(buck and eddie from 911). HOWEVER the fanfics that came out during the Teenwolf era, Sterek mostly, were very good - almost novel worthy. I dropped the show around season 2 but still read the fanfics because some of these writers cooked. Even now years later, i sometimes still go back to Ao3 and pull up some of my favorite Sterek fics.
@@LnRit02 A month late but i've got some! (all on ao3, in no particular order): "The Circus at the End of the World" by mikkimouse, "If the ley lines you should follow" by forestofbabel, "A Desperate Arrangement" by mikkimouse, "Windows" by dr_girlfriend, and "hope is the thing with feathers" by ShanaStoryteller. And my top 3 that I still reread to this day: "Play It Again" by metisket, "Hide of a Life War" by Etharei, "Those Are The Days That Bind Us" by s_a_m,
My main take is that it was pretty unserious of them to spend so much time hyping up Stiles and Derek as a potential ship when Scott and Isaac were RIGHT THERE. Talk about fumbling a great opportunity.
Or even Scott and Stiles. We have plenty of friends to lovers with heterosexual couples, why could’ve we get that we Scott and Stiles??? Especially when Jeff always went on about how their relationship was the heart of the show.
@@mkwhite5054 Ikr? Derek and Stiles hated each other's guts and their dynamic never moved past 'grudging tolerance'. And maybe that's compelling if you're into enemies-to-lovers but to squander the absolutely phenomenal 'And they were roommates!' chemistry that Scisaac had? Rank madness.
I don't doubt that a large part of the Sterek fandom were teenagers as Teen Wolf was starting (I was around 17 myself), but the quality of Sterek fanfiction alone speaks of a certain maturity within the fandom that I've only ever found in older fandoms like Harry Potter or Supernatural. Most writers are also concerned about the age gap and make sure to wait until everybody is over 18 before any lines are crossed, and that's something teenagers back then just didn't care about. Even at 29, I still stand by the fact that fiction is fiction, and while teenager/adult relationships are disgusting in real life, I couldn't care less about what happens in fiction as long as it's entertaining and well thought out. My mentality is something that a lot of teen-early 20s people nowadays already find controversial, but I promise you, the status quo was a LOT worse in 2012. From what I remember, only people who shipped something else with these characters and were antagonistic towards Sterek cared about their age gap. In my case, Sterek was appealing because it seemed to be promising us a canonical queer relationship in a story that wasn't centered around romance. All I wanted was the normalization of LGBT+ characters and relationships, instead of having all of them be about the Dannys of the world (namely, tertiary characters that never matter and that barely make any appearance), or tragic protagonists in Bury Your Gays type dramas. Going into season 3 and finding out that they seemed to have replaced most of the Sterek interactions with a love interest for Derek that felt like a watered-down female version of Stiles (Jenniffer was clumsy, awkward, smart, and had some scenes with Derek that were suspiciously similar to Sterek scenes in S1, like a wounded Derek jumping in front of her car and her almost running him over) was heartbreaking. And also the fact that they hinted at Stiles being bisexual over and over again and then never mentioned it again... I remember being so excited over a canonically bisexual character that wasn't promiscuous or evil, and I just. My teenaged little queer heart just wanted some representation.
I think a lot of people who didn't engage with fandom in that early 2010s era (or who have maybe forgotten in the years since) forget how different the barometer for what was acceptable was back then. Like, we're talking about a time when the second most popular ship for Supernatural (and prior to Cas' introduction, pretty much the ONLY popular ship in that fandom) was two blood-related brothers. Which isn't to say that nobody was against it at the time, but simply that it was a HUGE chunk of fanworks, and if you were an spn fan back then, that was kind of just something you had to, at minimum, tolerate - or learn how to filter out when looking for other fics. Love it or loathe it, I can't imagine something like that spawning anywhere near the same amount of works today. So given that environment, it's really no surprise that something like "these ambiguously-aged characters might have an age gap that wouldn't be appropriate in real life" wasn't really a roadblock lol
@@SeptSapphire277 and it was even more extreme if you were also in anime fandoms. In Ouran, the Hitachin twins together was the most popular ship. Sebastian (a who-knows-how-old demon) and Ciel (who was like 12) was the most popular in Kuroshitsuji, Loveless was about a prepubescent boy with virginity-signaling cat ears and a grown adult. Even the ships that involved people of the sameish age were plagued with things that are considered trigger warnings nowadays, like extreme possesivenes, toxic masculinity, and dubcon or noncon. All the toxic and sometimes creepy Japanese BL normalisation bled out a lot in Western fandoms too, and nobody batted an eye because that was our every day bread and butter. Like, that was all we had. Can't exactly be a picky eater when you're starving and the only food you have is rotten - you'll eat it and learn to ignore the stomach ache and nausea that will follow. Growing up with all of that makes you feel like Sterek by comparison was downright tame and wholesome lol. We're extremely lucky nowadays to have so many canon or non-canon ships to choose from, and for understanding what makes a healthy relationship, but people do tend to forget that it wasn't always like this.
@@blueturnips1912 Absolutely! Of the ones you've mentioned I'm only personally familiar with Ouran, but have heard a lot of similar cases to the others. It really was all over back then, to the point that I was genuinely a little surprised that Sterek is seen as problematic by today's standards just bc that period in fandom had so much worse and it was all so much more commonplace lol. I can certainly see why it's not everyone's thing, but it really does feel kind of tame comparatively
Another thing to mention is that Stiles is extremely mature for his age and demonstrates a lot of adult behavior and mentality. This makes sense even in cannon, his mother died when he was young and his dad basically neglected him for a decent amount of time. Being very intelligent he was forced to grow up very quickly. Then when you add all the shit he goes through before 18 by being involved with the supernatural. It is no wonder why nobody cares for the age gap, as he has been through shit most adults never experience. In a way you can't call him a child even if he was not yet 18 years old, as it is insulting considering what he has been through.
Oh HUNNEY, the Fanfictions helped the ship sooo much it was inevitable for it to be IMMENSE, cause the Writers were doing the DAMNED thing. The way i NEVER read as much as when i first started reading Sterek fanfics is something that HAS to be studied, and even the bad ones sometimes were better than what JD could come up with. The Girlies truly GIRLED💅🏽💅🏽💅🏽
Brilliant content as always. After u mentioned the trans masc article I typed 'teen wolf' into my unis online library and wowzer did not know that teen wolf academia was taking place
one of my biggest tv show takes is that when a character or relationship being gay or seeming gay is played for laughs the joke is really on tptb because they just made it gay for real
I've recently just rewatched Teen Wolf and I have to admit that I've fallen right back down the Sterek rabbit hole. I was instantly reminded of why this ship was/is/has been so popular. You listed it all really well. It's a great analysis. I guess the world in 2011 just wasn't ready for a character who would blur the lines of gender and sexuality in such an organic, natural way. I've never really thought about that being a part of why Stiles was everyone's favorite character, but subconsciously, it must have been. He was the perfect self insert character for people of all genders and sexualities. btw, have you ever heard of The 100? Because that show was just a clusterfuck of ship wars, baiting and audience gaslighting. That show had two major ships and it managed to fuck over the fans of both of them in equally cruel ways. It's a show that deserves to be studied in that regard.
I was in the fandom and definitely a sterek shipper. "Only a few years older" (few generally meaning 3-5), coupled with no job definitely had me thinking 19 at most for Derek. Allison's aunt definitely seemed older than derek so that was the age gap that flagged for me at the time. As far as canon backing: they just seemed to have more respect for each other than they did for the others. But, really, for me: they were the parents of the group in the early season. The pairing seemed natural
Damn. I've been shipping Sterek since 2011. It was refreshing to hear such a well put together analysis without tipping so far onto either side. I'm still not over Tyler Hoechlin saying that he cast his son for the movie because the boy reminded him of Stiles in auditions. There's always been such an odd push and pull, where the actors seemed interested and thankful that fans were so hype, but TPTB seemed half interested, half annoyed like 24/7, and it created a huge mess.
i think one reason showrunners/TBTB have a habit of getting spiteful about ships like this is because they are incapable of understanding the very concept of shipping on the coolboy intellectual level you've achieved here. they don't get that shipping can be completely detached from canon and it's not an indictment on their writing/worldbuilding, its just something some fans are going to do while engaging with the material!! half the time fans don't really care whether something ends up canon as long as they can make their sexually charged gifsets. TBTB are best off ignoring it completely, letting fan reactions influence the direction of the show in any way always makes for disaster imo. great video
You're so right! I mean, I've read so many fanfics about pairing that only met once or that weren't even from the same universe and it doesn't mean that the original show/movie is bad or that I want them to really get together, it's just me taking my silly little dolls and going "now kiss!"
as someone who was obsessed with teen wolf in its golden days, and who didn’t necessarily ship Sterek but definitely read Stiles as bi/queer; this video is awfully well made. It also made me headcanon Derek as asexual, which may not have been the point but I’ll take what I can get ✋ the more sexualized the character, the more asexual I will make him 🤝
i never got past the first 3 episodes of teen wolf, but i have read some spectacular sterek fanfiction back in the day. sterek shippers are so good at making a mountain out of the mole hill
I also think that many women tend to lean towards mlm ships because they don’t have to identify with any of the characters. Women are always seen as sexual objects who have to look a certain way, so being able to enjoy a romance story without being unconsciously aware of those things can be refreshing. I‘m aroace so I‘m no expert on this matter but I can imagine that having two equals who are no target of permanent judgement (esp in Teen Wolf) gives gives people the freedom to actually focus on the romance.
Not relevant to your comment but: I love when you can see from someone's username that you just met a fellow fan in the wild. I'm more of a JGY girlie but still, same fandom!
Also, in a world where you are constantly bombarded with messages about how to correct all your perceived imperfections, reading about a perfect girl who men fight over is not quite as relatable as it could be. At least for me, such narratives often just made me more keenly aware of how I was not nearly as cool as the protagonist, while with m/m romance I can just enjoy the story without my own insecurities ruining the experience.
@@dorian5876 yea that’s definitely understandable. People who judge women for liking mlm content are either extremely privileged, delusional, or just ignorant. There is a thick line between enjoying and fetishizing but those people tend to erase that line completely. I am a women and mainly read straight romances (ALWAYS written by women though) but even as an asexual I notice that the objectification of my gender often kinda ruins the vibe. It also doesn’t help that to this day the writers feeld is still dominated by man who most likely never met a woman in their lives. Finding a realistic female character in a romance (a feeld dominated by women) is one thing but as soon as we step into fantasy or sci-fi? Suddenly all women are somehow hot tsunderes who fight over every man like it’s their personal Jesus.
@@LanWuXian So true. I love fantasy but nowadayd I pretty much only read HP fanfiction since I can't stand the way most female characters are written. Although in the recent years there has been a promising boom of queer fantasy, I should probably get on that lol.
this video is sort of exactly the type of fandom analysis i love. sorta hate how you have to do disclaimers about the ship bc the sterek question is not really a yes/no one, but alas we're on the internet. also the damon derek comparison is so true i never thought of it like that
Sterek shipper here. The age gap thing is like def weird. I always say that scripts are the best source of info so I think that Derek should have been canonically 19. Most shippers now agree Sterek is fine when they are adults bc a 3 year age gap isn't too horrible. I just get angry when Stere-antis throw out random ass ages for Derek and then justify their point. I had someone try to convince me Derek was 21 when he met Kate.
In the pilot, Derek is 19; which means he met Kate, in her 20s, when he was 13. Big yikes, oof. But since Tyler, Derek's actor, does NOT look 19, Derek was reconned as 23, which bumps up his age with Kate at 16. Still yikes, big oof. The point is that Kate is more of a predator than literal werewolves.
I just wanted to make it clear that I watched this video, went outside and just as I was getting into my car, a big truck with the words “Derek’s Towing Company” went past me carrying a Jeep. And yes, I did the exact same spit take that Stiles did when he saw Derek on the FBI tape. 20:40
52:21 you 100% are correct with that. Being a queer guy with adhd who was stupidly nerdy, not very athletic, semi-closeted, and single throughout almost all of high school… there is A LOT that I can relate to with Stiles. Had I watched the show when I was a bit younger I probably would’ve lived vicariously through Stiles as a self-insert. Now that I’ve started watching the show, I see myself in Stiles, but really recognize him as just a great character.
This is one of the best breakdowns I've seen of why shippers ship a ship. I was on tumblr when it was airing, casually watched the show and here I am in 2024 truly understanding what it was about this ship that made it so big for the first time. Kudos!
I'm so glad you talked about Stiles being hc'd as transmasc! I haven't seen the show, only your videos, but just from them alone I was like yeah he's superrrrr trans coded. I'm a trans guy and I stg I've worn so many of his exact outfits it's embarrassing 😭
I agree that shipping Sterek, Destiel etc. often has nothing to do with the fetishization of gay men. However, as someone who typically enjoys female characters and wlw ships, I do think a lot of it is the result of fandom misogyny and the utter refusal to engage with female characters the way fans do with male characters.
Oh absolutely. Let’s take Thiam as an example. Hayden received a hate mob because she was paired with Liam and is a universally hated character amongst the teen wolf fandom.
Yeah authors will just take the most nothing male characters and just do whatever with them but rarely are female characters afforded this courtesy. And this is totally anecdotal but of the few gay men Ive interacted in fandom, they have all said they enjoy writting and reading about female characters as often if not more than men
@@emiliobustamante2401 I can't speak to the gay men in fandom (I'm a lesbian and most of the other people I know in fandom are queer women) but the thing about obsessing over nothing main characters while ignoring any and all female characters is so true.
While this is absolutely true, I have to add something. 1 - the fandom largely consists of straight women and queer people attracted to men, so very often the fans prefer to engage with characters they find attractive. 2 - most of the time it's not fandom misogyny, it's the creators' misogyny. They write boring female characters noone cares about. How often have we seen a girl character who's only personality trait is "loved by the mc"? or the token girl on mc's team who will always end up with one of the protagonists? I swear in teen shows the only good female characters are old and/or gay because the writers can't just label them as "blank love interest" (like Ellen and Charlie from SPN).
@@shoobadooba6805 I hate the it's the creator's misogyny excuse. Maybe this was the case in the 1960s and 70s, where the female characters in Star Trek really were pretty one-dimensional. But nowadays, this just isn't true. If you want proof, compare Sterek and Destiel to the biggest Sapphic ship of the time: Swan Queen. Regina and Emma were two main characters on a hugely popular show and they had every necessary ingredient for ship bait (adversarial relationship turning into friendship, morally ambiguous villain character paired with a hero with a tragic past, opposite personalities that complement each other, Henry has two mommies, I could go on). And even though Swan Queen was very popular by f/f ship standards, it was never anywhere near as popular as the big m/m ships of the time, despite debuting at around the same time and having all the right ingredients. People in fandom just care less about women (and people of color while we're at it). This is consistently the case to this day, even in shows, movies, and books where the female characters and characters of color are given just as much if not more character exploration than their white male counterparts.
The argument that straight women shipping gay characters is fetishising them absolutely drives me up the wall. I’m a straight woman and I ship lots of pairings…gay men, gay women, straight couples, it doesn’t really matter as long as the characters have an interesting chemistry. I strongly believe that the reason a lot of gay ships exist is because a lot of shows handle female characters and relationships pretty poorly. There’s a lot of repetition, a lot of predictability, and a general focus on sex over emotions. Using supernatural as an example: am I going to ship Dean with one of the many underdeveloed, nearly identical sexy lady characters who show up for an episode or two? Or am I going to ship him with his complicated best friend the genderless celestial being learning to be human, who’s been around for several seasons while fundamentally complimenting and challenging Dean’s character? The gender 100% does not matter here. I would have shipped destiel even if Cas was a woman, even if both of them were women. It has less to do with my straight woman sexual fetishes, and everything to do with me generally enjoying love stories between fully developed and interesting characters.
on top of this, its really clear when someone is a fetishiser or not, and to lump all female fans of m/m ships into that catagory is really ridiculous when you can so easily spot the weirdos. i think a lot of this has to do with queer people feeling that the presence of straight women in these queer spaces is invasive, not realising that women and straight women especially are a large part of whay these online spaces are able to exist in the first place
i feel like one reason sterek was so popular despite the age gap (speaking as someone who unironically loved sterek during my brief time in the teen wolf fandom around the time season 4 was coming out) is because none of those actors looked like teenagers, so it didnt *feel* like an age gap. like. especially before derek grew some facial hair, if you put derek and stiles next to each other they look like theyre the same age, or at least close enough that it didnt matter
i have to completely honest, when i watched teen wolf as a teenager, i really only registered a semblance of sterek possibility in teen wolf while watching season 6b, mainly because the idea of the two ‘missing’ characters turning up together, who barely interacted in previous season, at the end to basically surprise and help the protagonist, scott, was a silly concept to me that i thought it would be fun/funny if it happened. wasn’t until later i checked the sterek tag on ao3 that i discovered how popular the ship is. now that you mention how this show presented these two characters, i completely get why young fans were so down bad for this ship, and maybe i would’ve shipped it myself if we had a clearer rendering of derek’s age and role in the show. as you mentioned, derek is portrayed so enigmatically that he could essentially be a fill-in for any character who has to do a necessary but less important and/or ‘boring’ action that would move along to plot to support the protagonist. i’ve always been a little annoyed with how obscure some moments in teen wolf were, but i was especially annoyed with the show’s handling of derek because no matter how much personality tyler hoechlin put in to the character, i could never get a read on what exactly type of actions derek would do. i just registered him as one of the two main ‘weird guys’ on the show because of his ambiguous morality at times, secrecy, etc. the other main character that i assigned the token label ‘weird guy’ was, not surprisingly, stiles. in that regard, i think your point of how neither derek and stiles had an explicit love interest for a lot of the show, beyond fleeting and/or out-of-reach romantic interests was especially interesting, because to me, despite how different their personalities were, they still ended up in the same ‘weird guy’ metaphorical boat more often than not in my brain. even though derek was a supernatural creature like the majority of main characters, he was still out of place because of how ambiguous he was (not an all-knowing werewolf, not an average human, not young, not old, not a high schooler, not an adult, not a ‘good guy,’ not a ‘bad guy,’ etc.) so of course people flocked to put the ‘othered’ werewolf with the only human. not only was stiles such a good canvas for people of all backgrounds to project themselves onto, as you mentioned, but derek was a great blank slate for people to project their ideal traits in a romantic partner onto him because of how ‘undefined’ he was. arguably, derek hale could reasonably be portrayed to do almost anything because of how undefined he was. both derek and stiles were out-of-place ‘weird guys’ with contrasting personalities but both of them also had a similar level of morbidity, albeit in nearly opposite directions, that made them have an interesting dynamic that the fans would, of course, run with. overall i really wish the show had refined derek’s character a little more because he had so much potential, but the show itself really was fun overall even if it needed a LOT of fine tuning. i have a feeling that if this show was rebooted (and god i hope it never will be tbh, with love), and derek’s age was explicitly defined as the same as stiles, and their dynamic was kept as close to the s1-s2 goofy dynamic as possible (+ the weird teen wolf movie moments ig), people would start picking this ship up again and SPRINTING with it.
jane i NEED to hear you talk about buddie and 911 bc from the moment eddie showed up on that show the powers that be have been wink wink nudge nudging that ship
i watched that show with my parents for the first couple seasons and just assumed that’s where things were going with those characters. then i come to find via tumblr osmosis that they only JUST made one of the two characters queer after several years and put him in a relationship with a DIFFERENT man. was baffled.
I think Scott gets less traction because he's so whiney. He's survives the odds getting this bite, becomes a super strong supernatural being, ends up excelling in sports, gets the girl, and he still can't stop complaining. It's a little more valid later when there are actual threats, but at the beginning, he's a little insufferable, and it was a bad first impression. Compare that to Derek and Stiles, who actively do shit to fix their issues.
That boat video elicits such a negative reaction to my subconscious that I kept flinching every time you put a clip in that I had to get away from my phone Of course I still like the whole sterek ship but man that video makes me uncomfortable
@@deeglossit’s so crazy that the boat video isn’t even the most mean spirited that this show got. i remember one time during a cast interview the interviewer had them read aloud parts of a sterek fic and they acted so disgusted about it. and it was a completely normal fic, an olympic gymnastics au iirc. that shit made me lose a lot of respect for them
@bronzeecho early days of social media interactions between cast and fans... Matt may have keyed into what fans wanted and hoped for (and I think as a, iirc, gay man) maybe did a bit himself (at least I vaguely remember him writing he was a fan of it/the show himself) but he should have stopped and asked where to draw the line in terms of engaging with it. He was the one who got the actor on the boat after all...
For real, lol, I watched this show as an adult when I was bored during the pandemic, didn't get past season 4, wasn't too invested in it. I didn't really know anything about the fandom or the ships before this UA-cam series, and still every time a clip of that boat came up it felt like I was getting hit right in the solar plexus repeatedly - HOW DID ANYONE EVER THINK THAT WAS OKAY ????? I'm just flabbergasted that got approved. Truly, destiel metatextual queerbait walked so sterek could... commit vehicular manslaughter, or something like that. I don't even think Misha went that far. I can't not cringe when it comes up lol
That comment about being attracted to stiles while relating to him, and the relatability playing into the attraction, i felt really targeted lmao 😅 great video as always ! I'm kinda sad that this is probably going to be the last of the teen wolf series tbh
I still love Sterek to this day, it’s a ship I can always fall back on when I need a good read. It’s sometimes hard to find a fandom with strong writers but they never disappoint here. It never gets old. I’ve been reading fanfiction for 20 years and Sterek writers are some of the best I’ve come across. Also just an add on, in Supernaturals early days J2 had some pretty good writers on livejournal. I never could get into Destiel though, supernatural was never about that for me. It was more about family.
lmao this video was the first time that I heard the actual audio from the Destiel scene, I never knew about those vine-boom ass sound cues. Really great video!
I had Destielgate buried deep in my brain and your section on it brought back all the depressing hilarity of it. It is as funny as it is absolutely insane.
The best way I've seen the psychological reason for women enjoying gay ships described is something you touched on in this video, which is that it is a fantasy that separates the female viewer from the scene. See the famous quote by Margaret Atwood regarding the inescapability of the male gaze, and how women employ it on themselves: "You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur." Imagining two men together, whether you're placing yourself in the role of one of the characters or only seeing it from the outside, allows you to experience romantic/sexual fantasies without the weight of the male gaze following you like a shadow. Additionally, for people who are on the aro/ace spectrum (like myself), shipping can be a way to explore feelings and situations we don't have or necessarily want to explore in the real world. Great video!! The sterek nostalgia really hit me hard. They just don't make queerbaiting like they used it.
this was a great analysis! i feel like i always recognized the sort of inherent androgyny of stiles but providing evidence with the psychosexual aspects of horror was excellent and really thought provoking actually!
I have never watched a single episode of Teen Wolf but I still come running whenever I see an overly long video essay about Sterek. It's just part of fandom history as a whole.
Why is there always a destiel confession moment in sterek videos? Like i did not come here to witness my beloved angel go to superhell. I came to simp over sterek
Destiel confession, I was prepared for, but the johnlock conspiracy?! 😂 I had fan-war flashbacks. The finale was a horrible night for optimistic queer teenage fans everywhere, and I wasn’t even on the frontlines. But this video truly was like time-traveling back to my teenage years, and I really enjoyed this deep dive! It’s funny how it was such a big show at the time and now that it’s been so many years since the finale, we just don’t talk about it very much. Also, that show intro should’ve won an award for how cool it was.
just binged your other two Teen Wolf videos and I love the reoccurring gag of the Derek Hale power stance png and Tyler Posey being absolutely out of pocket at any given chance
on the topic of shippers, what i wish newer generations understood is that it just means you enjoy the ship. doesn't mean you believe it to be canon or want it to be. and i fully believe the writers of teen wolf or supernatural could never have achieved what the heroes on ao3 keep contributing to. applying the shipper lens to a show is fun, but you don't have to advocate for it to be the only or primary one
this right here exactly!!! there seems to have been a shift in fan culture in the last few years where now everyone is arguing over whether their ship is more likely to be canon than another ship, but back in the days of old we all knew that none of us were getting canon so it wasnt really an argument to have 💀
I remember once reading that fandom makes content for what they think the show lacks. I think half the lifeblood of Sterek is how much the audience wanted Derek's traumatic backstory to be taken seriously lmao. Like he is explicitly sexually assaulted as a teen by an adult woman who uses him to murder his entire family. And the show neeeeever seems to consider how his hostile behavior, his weird relationship with teens, and his obsession with forming a pack could have sprung from his history. If there's one thing the Sterek fandom does, it's try to take care of Derek emotionally lmao. And who better to take care of him than the goofy fan favorite boy who has protected him in canon, has a fun dynamic with him, and also has lost family and been taken advantage of to harm people around him. whump.
I would second this. I feel like everything in the essay was on point, but would note that I felt it missed that in the beginniner there were a fair number of women and gay men who projected on to Derek for these exact reasons even if he was more "traditionally masculine."
You are completely spot on. There was a period of my life where reading (and sometimes writing lol) Derek whump/hurt-comfort was a daily event, and the more a fic foregrounded the actual genuine trauma he went through that the show glossed over, the better. I certainly enjoyed the Derek and Stiles dynamic, but I probably would have read fic with any pairing or no pairing at all as long as it engaged with this element in some way - Sterek just happened to be the ship that did this the most (or this was the case simply by virtue of it being the biggest ship)
Absolutely true. My bb son Derek --- pls take care of him. 😂
Teen Wolf fandom has Derek the same way Supernatural fandom has Dean and then later on Cas as characters who need care and affection and aren't getting them from the plot of the show.
Just wanted to pop in and remind people that someone, somewhere, was supremely out of touch because at one point during the show run there was an article, or maybe a poll, (I think it was done by MTV, but don’t hold me to that) on favorite Derek ships and Kate/Derek was an option 🤢
Amen
I DIDNT COME TO THE STEREK VIDEO TO GET REMINDED OF THE DESTIEL CONFESSION
it felt necessary to Me ❤️
somehow i read this comment just as she started explaining it
😭 unfortunately
CRIES
Supernatural really said "bury your gays" lol
"joblessly doing push-ups" took me out
im screaming too
Derek is so unintentionally hilarious, he’s always just lurking around High schools and the shadows, he never seems to be doing any sort of job and it’s implied he just hangs around in his burnt down house whenever he’s not creeping around the halls of a high school😭😭😭
How does he make money??? Since he lives in his old, burnt down house or a weird abandoned train station(?) or the forest idfk, I guess he doesn't need rent money but like... dude still needs to buy groceries, right?
@@stolenrelic I think he inherited all his family money.
@@stolenrelic maybe he just survived off of squirrells, birds, rats and someone's half-eaten school lunches
@@stolenrelic I imagine he is the sole inheritor of his families life insurance and stuff like that
@@stolenrelicHis family had a lot of money. He’s the idle rich.
adding to sterek being a perfect storm of early 2010s trends - the post twilight supernatural teen media formula was “socially awkward human in love with a dark brooding supernatural creature”. like, subconsciously something sterek-esque was The Way the core audience was taught to engage in stories like teen wolf
very true!
let me tell you how absolutely gobsmacked I was when I found out Stiles and Derek weren’t the main characters. I had no idea that Scott McCall even existed. to quote Keke Palmer, “Sorry to this man.”
As an avid Sterek reader I definitely knew about Scott cause he's pretty much Stiles's brother, but I can't imagine him being a main character, he's too boring.
That was a big problem I had with the Sterek fandom, years ago I started following a lot of girls in Tumblr that really like sterek but would either completely ignore Scott or demonize him, and as someone that watched must of Teen wolf seeing that was crazy because Scott was a really nice, kind and great guy and friend. And the funny thing is that now those same girls are all politically correct and woke saying how there aren't enough people of color in media and bla bla bla, but we had a brown boy as a protagonist and not only did they ignore him but they straight up made him the villain many times in their fanfiction
(Edit: sorry if this comment is so long and sorry if it has bad grammar, my first language is not English)
i stopped watching a long time ago and it just boggles my mind Scott is the main character?? Stiles had a lot more charisma imo. Scott felt like wallpaper
I'm very much in the same boat😂
@Melissa-hd3jr yea I stop reading some fanfiction because they made Scott so horrible.
"your dad had a complicated relationship with that jeep" there's no way that wasn't on purpose oh Jeff Davis is not seeing the pearly gates 😭
As soon as I heard that line I was ready to fist fight Jeff Davis in hell!
For some reason this reminded me of the supernatural truck episode 😭
Am I the only one that _immediately_ thinks of "The Jeep Song" by The Dresden Dolls when I hear that line of dialogue? 😂
You don't need a psychology degree to understand that it wasn't about the "Jeep" at all...
If all it takes to not see the gates is eye winking at a ship that involved adult actors - than your god is fucked. My god is not fucked - my god has a bigger dick than your god.
BRUTHA. i think it’s insane that this is how i find out that derek canonically dies in the end.
And your comment just spoil me his dead before watching the video!
@@MarianelaAyelenlourdesSajama no offense but that’s your fault for reading the comments first
Fr also how home girl married her teacher in the end, I haven’t finished pretty little liars yet
I just watched the first episode of that show and now I know from this comment 😂 my fault bc it’s been out for a long time but still funny
Real missed opportunity for "the epic highs and lows of high school lacrosse" smh 😔
As a straight man, I find these takes on Stiles interesting. I saw him as my self insert as well, he is the embodiment of male insecurities and the perfect analog for the awkward picked on kid that I was in high school. I'm glad other folks could identify with him in their own way. He's definitely the most interesting character on the show, well, to me anyway, and he always felt like the proxy for the audience in a show full of unrealistic archetypes.
That's very true in addition to being the one literal human on the show he also feels like the most human/fully fleshed out character in a way
@@jane-mulcahy this!! he has believable flaws and plays a stereotypical funny character while still doing it in a unique way
Definitely the most relatable when all the other characters are either werewolves or trained killers.
came for the sterek nostalgia, stayed for the shockingly astute insight that stiles is the female audience surrogate. now to apply this lens to supernatural
I would say dean appeals to the oldest daughter/feminine labor of a female audience
I think dean and castiel take turns appealing to the female audience simply because dean is very eldest daughter core (and also bisexual) and castiel is more traditionally fem coded
I wrote a 600k sterek fanfic at 16 and I wanted to forget. To this day I am so sad we were baited for that many seasons.
Name??? 👀
@@jace_d AHHAHA you are so real for this
@@Rosales2486 Ngl, 600k words is a bit intimidating, but I gotta support a fellow stereker
Change the names and get it published as a fantasy romance icon
Nah fr… show me to me Rachel😭
i’m so glad that destiel election night confession has made its way into the teen. Wolf saga discussion.
what a magical night it was... I haven't felt such happiness since
@@jane-mulcahythe closest thing I’ve seen was Queen Elizabeth dying the same day sans undertale won the tumblr sexyman poll against reigen
Oh that whole week was a mess 😅😅
@@SakiBlablabla I remember going back and forth between CNN live reporting on voting results and the internet and seeing so many memes. I don’t think I’d ever felt anything like that night before or since.
That night was amazing 😭If I remember right wasn’t there rumors that Putin was stepping down “because” of destiel
something that gets me about sterek in the teen wolf movie is just the mpreg implications that eli hale's existence brings up
I mean honestly if they can just hand-wave resurrecting Allison (with almost no effort) then sure. Literally why not? Either mpreg or like they had to visit the fairy realm together and peed on the same tree and accidentally made a baby or something? Wouldn't even be crazier than all the other stuff going on.
I don’t know how people came to that conclusion honestly 😭 The real and shallow answer is just that Davis copy-pasted Stiles’ personality onto Eli because Dylan O’Brien declined to join the project.
@@littlebugguy Shush you, don't harsh our vibe!
@@nightsassy4430 That’s just the Jeff Davis way I’m afraid - cutting corners, lmfao.
nemeton created Eli with Stiles and Derek's DNA
One more thing: I remember in another review of the terrible movie, the UA-camr openly wondered where Derek's son came from, and one commenter jokingly replied "Stiles mpreg" which... I mean, A) The kid is Stiles-coded down to the last detail, B) there is not even the barest hint of who the mother might be, if she even exists and C) most of the funeral is devoted to telling Eli how much Derek cared about Stiles' jeep, as if the fucking car is Stiles-by-proxy. Like, I feel deranged for even bringing it up but... Jeff Davis, what other conclusions would you have us draw? Why are you encouraging us to even entertain this? We will never be free of the psychic damage.
I've only observed this series from afar but also don't really care about spoilers, but I gotta say, not only is Derek having a surprise plot twist son... something, but also, the fact that the answer to the immediate question of "Who's his son's mom" ends up beiNG STILES?????/ POSSIBLY???/?? LMAO????/?BFHDFGBHJF
& like. Not that gay parenting or mpreg itself as a concept are inherently just comedic or anything of course, but its just that it was jokingly commented by someone on UA-cam which is what led you to think about it and realize they might actually be onto something, even if unintentionally.
But also, it's just crazy that they would imply something like that after so long of having not actually made the ship canon, y'know? Like, oh, yeah, they're super close, and maybe we can imply they ✨really like✨ each other & all, but there's only going to be insinuations there.
(Bc yknow, gotta make sure not to lose those homophobic viewers or anything, since that just means less money, amirite? 🙄)
But then all of a sudden the movie comes around and the showrunners are like "Ok yeah we're STILL not TECHNICALLY confirming anything one way or the other but here's some heavy implications that these two literally had a child together. And possibly even biologically for that matter because magical werewolf biology or something. Kthxbai 😘🐺"
@@feliciaroseantonia well, Dylan O'Brien declined to be in the movie after Arden Cho wasn't invited back to participate (good for him for standing up for her, cuz production did her dirty even back in the show), so there's that.... The whole production was a disaster, and apparently the script was rewritten multiple times (including DURING shooting), and then the final cut was just sort of slapped together, so who knows what was in the original script that included Stiles as a character (he was clearly intended to play a significant part, especially considering it was a continuation of the Nogitsune storyline), but I get what you're saying. I didn't _hate_ the movie, but it was quite obvious that the issues behind the scenes messed a lot of stuff up 🤷
random theory: the kid is actualy Stiles son, but Dareck adopted. i have no idea if they said anything about Stiles in the movie, if he is alive, dead or whatever.
@@J_Mock92I don't disagree with anything you said, I just thought it's funny that you seem so shocked by script rewrites during filming when the LOTR trilogy had constant script rewrites well into filming and ostensibly throughout filming and is considered one of the greatest film trilogies of all time.
@@vannalaws1692 oh, I'm not shocked by script rewrites at all. I'm well aware that they're commonplace in the industry. What isn't as common however, is for complete script overhauls after filming is well on its way. Rewrites and adjustments happen all the time of course, but filming scenes in the midst of extensive rewrites that change the entire plot of the film (which apparently happened with the Teen Wolf movie) isn't normal.
describing stiles as narratively androgynous is EXACTLY right - i had never thought of it in those terms but you hit the nail on the head
jane mulcahy, you do not know the monster you have just reawakened in me
I thought i was stronger than this but 5 mins of scrolling these comments and I'm brushing years of dust off the old ao3 bookmarks lmaoo
@@SeptSapphire277 SAME LMAO
@@SeptSapphire277😂😂
@@SeptSapphire277 share them with the class, pls
I’m sorry, the “a little lost boyfriend, with no one to love” while his picture just shrinks on screen absolutely took me out. that is the funniest thing, I am still giggling like an idiot.
I have never even watched teen wolf. 😭 this is just so entertaining.
I recommend the first two seasons! I can't say after that, as I was never able to watch the third or beyond, hahaha.
@@stolenrelic I couldn't even do that with clear conscience lol. I've tried to rewatch the show on like 5 different occasions but I genuinely cannot stand a full episode 😭 I kind of respect 13 year old me for being able to binge watch it AND pay full attention to the plot
the damon/derek parallel is something i'd never even considered but holy crap jane you're so RIGHT
Right?? It seems so obvious now lol. And she's so right, it was a WILD misstep to intentionally create a Damon-esque fan-bait character **without a love interest** like what were they thinking??
@@eheff can’t just throw a loverless lover boy into the mix like that!! it’s asking for trouble!!
It was exactly how I found out Henry Kissinger died actually
I remember in high school finding out John McCain had died through one of those dancing crab videos on tumblr
Omg. When Rush Limbaugh died it was like a crab rave
jeff davis's mind would not be able to comprehend this video, it's too powerful.
also speaking of jeff davis, interesting that he created both spencer reid and stiles stilinski, characters that are basically variations on the same character, and one was supposed to be bi, but got shut down and the other is stiles lmao, like there is something there maybe.
it's really hard to tell what was going on in his mind lol. he was clearly okay with including gay and even bisexual characters/relationships, but I think maybe he resented Sterek for being something he didn't come up with that got more popular than the things he did come up with? I don't think he should've made it canon, but it's interesting that that seems like his motivation for not doing so (not the age gap or anything). also I'd say he had problems.... writing women. to say the least
I genuinely think that between Jeff Davis, Stephen Moffat and Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa there are serious grounds for a study into why it's always gay men who end up delivering us shows with the most spiteful queerbait, comphet and women written only as sexualised props for the male characters. Like, there's enough data points to form a trend, right?
@@finnac89 i'd add ryan murphy to the list also, he has special breed of biphobia that needs to be studied
@@neivilde.1242 I thought about lumping him in, but I've never watched Glee, though everything I've heard of him indicates his track record of LGBT representation is a bit spotty
@@finnac89 it's weird with his works, i can't say everything is him, but there is definite when you watch his stuff, like a lot of good but also a lot of bad so its like, is it intentional or ignorance i can never tell
i've been saying for years how unfortunate it is that the show heavily implied derek was like 19 in the pilot episode and only launched the idea of him being in his mid twenties AFTER a bunch of queer kids got insanely attached to the ship 😭 by that point, the ship (no pun intended) had already sailed
Very much this.
In the pilot, Stiles is 16, Derek is ‘a couple of years older’, 19-20(?) well within R&J laws. If I recall even as late as s2-3 the age gap being closer to perhaps 6-10 was not yet known. To judge people for shipping something that age range when the show later says ‘surprise, it’s predatorily large!’ is pretty disingenuous.
For another reference, it’s like calling Claire/Peter shippers (from Heroes) fans of incest when the entire first season went by without the audience knowing they were related.
@@kahare9565 I could have gone another few years without being reminded of the Claire/Peter ship that I used to love before the revelation. It didn't help that the actors were also dating irl! Their chemistry was amazing and then boom, the show runners went "they are blood relatives, go away you nasty pervert" without both actors changing anything about their acting.
i wonder if he did it on purpose since he didn’t like the ship but still loved to bait the fans
@@elizabethannnaYT entirely possibly. I remember ‘ship-gate’ (the tv choice awards commercial) and among older fans it was clearly bait. Many newer fans thought things like ‘if we vote for TW surely they will know how big support for Sterek is!’ which was the point of baiting them.
Queer money spends just as good and giving that audience subtext while ignoring it enough to let normies not even know it exists is THE best fiscal strategy.
@@kahare9565 another factor to consider is how many of those fans were kids around stiles' age themselves! i really don't blame anyone of any age who got jumpscared with the age gap, but *especially* when it's teenagers, the response to that information obviously isn't going to be "oh no, this ship is problematic now, so i will abandon it." they're already attached and they themselves probably have unrealistic and inflated perceptions of their own maturity. the knee jerk reaction from them is much more likely to be justification- "but their age doesn't matter, because stiles is very smart and mature and they're SOULMATES who are perfect for each other!" i myself was around 16/17 when season 3a started, and i have to admit that the age gap wasn't even an issue in my mind. i even clearly remember thinking everybody was being dramatic in sterek fics where it was used as a plot point- because i was 16, and thought i was mature enough, so obviously stiles would be too 😭
Stiles is also the only like actually fleshed out characters that stays a human so of course most of the human population would gravitate towards him first.
55:50 i mean as someone who is aroace and likes shipping/fanfiction, part of the appeal is that it's not real and i'm not involved lol
Thank you! I'm like you with that. It's fantasy and I love the appeal because it's not about me, an Ace not interested in relationships at all.
Yes this exactlyyy
yupp same! dunno yet fully if I am aroace, but I never pictured myself into ships/fanfics - i genuinely just love their relationship and love story :D no place for me - just giggling and loving the love
This exactly. I don't want anything to do with any of that but I like shipping characters together, especially if the canon is too much of a coward to do it.
Truer words were never spoken.
It's the middle of 2024 and we're STILL having sterek discourse ON UA-cam. This ship that never sailed (except it did, Jeff sailed it and pretends he didn't) will never die.
I think that queer shippers of sterek and other popular tumblr ships of the era between two men also are seeking the representation of a complex, ever changing, slow-burn dynamic that was not often an option for on-screen queer couples within the genre of network teen television. It is very rare to see the sort of rollarcoaster-ish complicated relationship format that straight fictional teens would experience with on-screen queer couples. These pairings often had quite cut and dry relationship storylines - to put it simply they were boring. So it makes sense that queer teens looking for an engaging relationship storyline in a genre geared towards them would grasp at straws to create their own.
"But I digress..." Or Degrass, even.
I hate you lmfao 🤣
the video of the two actors on a ship caused me actual pain!!! lmao! like it hurt to watch
Agree! So much pain! And i loved it as a teen, like whyy? 😅
Literaly Gay AND Homophobic
i physically recoiled from my phone
i didn’t know ANY piece of media could make me do that
same I cant wait it lol even when it came out I remember cringing SO hard
Also Derek is definitely Angel from Buffy. Dark and broody morally ambiguous guy with a tragic backstory who is also a deeply strange awkward man with no job or purpose beyond kind of skulking around a high school? Angel to a T.
Exactly! The moment she mentioned the Buffy inspiration, a made the connection between the two, I mean it was so obvious. The only difference here, as we see, is that Angel is also a Love Interest character. Really weird limbo Derek was put in by comparison
I don't doubt it! I might have made that comparison instead of Damon if I were more familiar with Buffy, but alas I have only seen part of the first season
@@jane-mulcahy Is this the part where I recommend Buffy lol? It may be deeply flawed, parts of it definitely haven't aged well, and a whole seven seasons long, but it's also probably my favorite show of all time, and it is absolutely the blueprint for the Teen Wolf / Vampire Diaries genre.
@@nsb144I've been meaning to watch it forever, I know it probably influenced all the other supernatural teen shows to come after. I just haven't gotten around to it yet, I honestly don't usually watch a lot of tv! (contrary to what you might think based on me making a million videos about Teen Wolf and Degrassi....)
thats immediately what i thought of first too!! especially those shots of him just watching the characters creepily from a distance in his silly little leather jacket. It's 100% season 1 Angel
The writers not making this ship canon is a classic example of sterek hindrance (i promise this is funny if you know organic chemistry you're just gonna have to trust me)
I googled this and yes it is funny. "slowing of chemical reactions" I'll say!!!
it actually is quite funny
💀 this pun is everything lmaoo. good one, user mahrinui18
wow this is amazing
I was a young gay boy and Sterek is my Twilight equivalent!
Boys want to be loved brooding supernatural older men too, not just girls!
Very insightful! As an established teen wolf scholar[tm] myself, i am so fascinated by how the sterek fandom almost started to exist independently of the show. I know anecdotally of people who are fans of sterek without having seen the show, but only reading fanfic and engaging with the fandom. I feel like that has become even more prevalent after the show ended.
Yeah exactly that, I'm getting tons of comments from people saying they didn't even watch the show but got into Sterek fanfics anyway. Apparently some people consume it completely separate from the source material?? I love that
This is so true omg. I remember stumbling on Sterek on Ao3 from tumblr and friends getting into the show/ship, but never actually watching the show until like three years later lol. Even funnier, I read so much Sterek fanfics even after the show was finished, but I have only ever seen up until the beginning of Season 3A. So all these characters from Season's 4-6 I had no idea who they were when they showed up in my fics! Tbh it was kind of crazy how the ship pretty much eclipsed the show, to the point where you could be someone like me who had very little knowledge of the source material but still be invested. Sterek still holds a special place in my heart tbh and I still read fics from time to time.
theres no "almost" it did eventually exist seperately from the show
There’s just so many talented writers that love sterek, I’ve moved from the teen wolf fandom ages and ages ago, but I still got some of those fics downloaded or bookmarked because they could very much be stand-alone stories. That’s the beauty of fandom and creativity.
@@chunkycloud_ So true. There's some fics that I re-read even though Im not active in the fandom anymore.
I know you hit this in the video, but the actors portraying the characters being adults was a HUGE part of why Sterek shippers didn’t really care about the age gap. Couple that with how inconsistent the timeline of the show was… you’ve got a golden ship. Literally no one cared what Derek’s “final” age was supposed to be in the context of the ship.
When you’re watching a show, it’s really easy to overlook the characters’ ages when the actors are adults themselves and look like it, especially if you’re around their age or younger than them. Dylan and Tyler H. are much closer in age than their characters, even more so than the actors who played Scott and Alison were when the show started.
Characters are meant to represent humans but they aren’t literally human, you know? So, in a roundabout way, it feels like people were actually shipping Dylan and Tyler, just with the sandbox of a werewolf story to springboard fanfic and fanart off of. That probably explains why so much Sterek fanfiction is highly transformative and tends to gloss over their canonical ages (like, there are sooo many college and adult life Sterek au’s I can’t even count).
There have been a lot of criticisms and downright hate floating around with people saying that shipping fictional characters with a questionable age gap implies predatory tendencies or harmful intentions toward actual minors and I don’t think that’s a fair argument.
Engaging with fiction doesn’t necessarily reflect one’s beliefs or desires in real life, especially in cases like this where the actors representing the characters in the ship are adults and so close in age. Having said that, I was a Sterek shipper as an older teen/young adult, and the ship still holds a huge spot in my heart, but I can definitely see both sides and understand why some people might not have shipped it at the time due to the age gap. It’s still super interesting though how hard the showrunners leaned into the ship baiting despite it, though.
Even the actors have said in hindsight that they were open to it and also acknowledged the ship baiting, probably because the timeline was so ambiguous and time jumps weren’t out of the question, so the ship being canon wasn’t an insane possibility (if you take out all the corporate nonsense that makes it hard to have canonically gay/bi main characters).
Man… Sterek. What a time that was to be on Tumblr 😮💨
☝️☝️☝️ couldn't agree more. While I understand them, I do find arguments about fictional age-gaps often tend to be extremely reductive. It's like people criticizing (romance) writing that deals with dubious consent or straight-up non-con, and suggesting that it shows moral bankruptcy or failure in the writers or readers.... and I'm just over here like: no. it's make believe. it's a safe sandbox to play with ideas and concepts. it doesn't mean that someone wants that to happen in real life - or thinks that it's a morally justified thing to do out in the real world. people tend to be able to understand the difference between fiction and reality Sharon. lol
anyway sorry for going off about that in a reply. I just think you're spot on!
And even though I personally haven't revisited sterek for many, many years (and stopped watching the show after season 3) I still had a great time back then. and remember that messy social media blurring - where there were "cookies for sterek" campaigns and money donated to a Wolf sanctuary. When fans put their minds to something they really can move mountains.
SO true! Even when I read fanfics that didnt mention anything about the age-gap, in my mind I always pictured the actors as their ages at the time, considering they both looked like they were in their early to mid 20's. Most of, if not all the fics I read were college-aged Stiles or Derek and Stiles being the same age (in a kind-of funny, 'Derek being a high school dropout or home-schooled kid' kind of way lmao). Most Sterek fics were them aged up or in a AU type of situation. It also helped that I got into the ship and show when I was a little older, so I could avoid some of the discourse over age-gaps since 1. I can distinguish between fiction and reality and won't irl ship and 2. I wouldnt engage with that side of the fandom anyway.
Another thing to mention is that Stiles is extremely mature for his age and demonstrates a lot of adult behavior and mentality. This makes sense even in cannon, his mother died when he was young and his dad basically neglected him for a decent amount of time. Being very intelligent he was forced to grow up very quickly. Then when you add all the shit he goes through before 18 by being involved with the supernatural. It is no wonder why nobody cares for the age gap, as he has been through shit most adults never experience. In a way you can't call him a child even if he was not yet 18 years old, as it is insulting considering what he has been through.
@@haydenscholze7452 Agree
@@cheshirecandy thisssss, and like I feel like that type of reductive thinking kinda forgets that there is a huge portion of shippers who aren't only thinking with their genitals. sure we might go for what looks hot but we will more often go for what makes an engaging story.
sometimes you want a ship to be "problematic" because it makes for good narrative conflict or sometimes you even ship characters for the purpose of seeing two toxic people crash and burn and destroy each other. it's fun, it's compelling, it's character study, a thought experiment!
Supernatural and Sherlock are usually the big examples used when talking about queerbaiting (and for good reason) but I think I've never experienced a more blatant bait than the boat video
Yeah honestly Sherlock and SPN had absolutely nothing on Teen Wolf when it came to queerbaiting, it was so egregious (and I say that as someone who, as a teen, totally fell for it lmao. I literally had screencaps from the boat video as part of my tumblr theme, much to the everlasting shame of my present self)
i just want to tell everyone here that when i watched teen wolf, it was with my 40 year old canadian french carpenter stepdad when i was 16 and even that man supported sterek
followup: derek's job was being the local cryptid small children told their families horror stories about at the dinner table. do not diminish his contribution to the economy!
I agree with this! he is like dracula
Ooo ooh I want to add a little bit re: age gaps in old fandom. I got into slash fanfiction with Kim Possible/Shego fanfic in like 2010, which has a similar age gap + issues to Sterek (I was like. 13.). I also ended up reading a lot of Sterek fanfic after I stopped caring about Supernatural (i was also a Sterek centrist in terms of actual shipping, but the quantity of fanfiction was massive).
Like you said, fandom now takes a much more critical eye towards age gaps in relationships. But I would argue that a lot of older fanfiction didn't ignore age gaps, they were just as likely to recognize it and try to fix it in the fanon. Aging characters up/down was way more common in my experience. It didn't impact the plot of a fanfic too much to just say Derek or Shego was 19, and 19-16 and 19-17 are less weird age gaps since they could have been in school together, or they could just age up the HSers into adults. I feel as fandom as evolved that kind of thing is less accepted. Now people discourse about canon ages even though the high school characters don't act or look like HSers. (Not trying to defend one way or the other thats just my observation)
Also, I think when people are teens they're more likely to think they are similar to adults. At age 13 I was definitely like "well theres not THAT much difference between 16 and 20" and as a 27 year old I'm like "that is a wild prospect"
Another thing is that many fans simply come from countries with a lower age of consent. In my country it is 15 and even though a relationship between a teenager and a guy in his early 20s might still be frowned upon, at least it's not illegal. I guess depending on the culture the viewer is from, such a relationship might be more socially accepted (whether or not we agree with it, hello cultural relativism). Also a fact that has not been mentioned in this video is that Derek had already been canonically involved in a relationship with a similar age gap, with Kate. And it was kind of glossed over, just as Lydia's weird thing with Parrish.
Speaking of problematic age-gaps in older fandoms. Im a bug fan of Downton Abbey - the most polar opposite fiction to Teen Wolf - it was only until recently that I was made aware that Mary and Mathew where 21 and 26 when they meet each other, which a bit weird. But not like, SUPER weird, cause they got together much later in life. But then I also realized, according to the wiki, Sybil was 17, and Tom was 27! Forbiden romance indeed!!!
(Why did they make it like that??? Those where not the actors ages at the time!)
I totally agree! I read a lot of sterek fan fiction from 2012-2015 when I was in school and was still figuring out the reason I identified with/liked Stiles so much was bc of how queer coded he was. I have a very vivid memory of fics regularly addressing the age gap between Stiles and Derek by either aging up or down one of the characters, setting the story later in life, or by simply making the age gap the central conflict of the fic. It was something I became very used to seeing in the fandom at the time as someone who was on AO3 and tumblr a lot.
omg kim x shego had to have been my first queer ship as a literal baby. i remember being a kid and having a crush on shego and basically wanting the two of them together, but also not entirely understanding those feelings until i was in late elementary or early middle school (the latter was also the time i realized i was queer too, so there's that).
and youre right, back when i was growing up, you generally would shift the ages of characters if you wanted them to be together. i dont think i had any ships that required that (not counting kim x shego, cause tbh im p sure little me thought they were about the same age), but i definitely saw it around.
Another thing to mention is that Stiles is extremely mature for his age and demonstrates a lot of adult behavior and mentality. This makes sense even in cannon, his mother died when he was young and his dad basically neglected him for a decent amount of time. Being very intelligent he was forced to grow up very quickly. Then when you add all the shit he goes through before 18 by being involved with the supernatural. It is no wonder why nobody cares for the age gap, as he has been through shit most adults never experience. In a way you can't call him a child even if he was not yet 18 years old, as it is insulting considering what he has been through.
I knew about sterek before I'd even watched Teen Wolf. Like it was always coming up for broad search terms on ao3, and I remember seeing one fanvid for tumblr fandoms around 2013 that referenced it. To the point where I assumed that Stiles and Derek were the two main characters of the show, and so when I actually watched Teen Wolf, and Scott came on screen, I went "who is that?" Shipping culture is wild (affectionate).
Same. Low-key disappointed that they didnt have more screen time tbh. They eclipsed the show, esp in S 1 and 2.
same. to the point I was very confused that Stiles wasn't the PM but also where did the Sterek come from because I wasn't seeing it.
I can't really remember how/where I've heard about Sterek first - probably Tumblr -, I do know I was late to the party when I started to watch the show (I think S5 was just out?) so I wasn't there when TPTB used that pairing as bait. I've started to read TW fanfics because 1) well, Stiles, lol and 2) I wanted to understand the Sterek thing.
Well, I converted fast XD
TW the show is bad but a guilty pleasure. Sterek is my second OTP to this day.
@@Meanne77 I remember when the video came out and the collective fandom explosion tbh. Now as an older gay that knows better, I feel really disgusted that they used the fandom like that. It was common at the time tho for fandom creators to queerbait unfortunately :/ but Sterek was everywhere all over tumblr and ao3. The show is campy bad fun but the pairing is one of my all time faves even if the show didnt give them justice.
ok fine i’ll rewatch teen wolf
that is NOT the moral of this video 😭
@jane-mulcahy it always is when you make a video on something, joking aside this was a very good breakdown also the ummmmm numbers on A03 went up since you put them together
I'm not gonna but I'm rereading the Hell out of "we thought we were going to die and didn't and now we're stuck with the confession" prompts let's goooo there is no moral samsara is not so badddd
that makes two of us
Clicking on this video with a sterek fic open in another tab... 😬
You are safe and lovveddd
Don't forget the red hoodie in the washing machine out of shock!
Saaaame! I keep coming back to it and will do so probably for the rest of my life 😌
24:15 "Don't do this, Cas" *gunshot* "After doing this, Castiel-" made me laugh until my stomach hurt
Something I find fascinating is that the show implies homosexuality in most of its male (and a few female) characters. I always wondered why the discussion around Teen Wolf and queerbaiting never mention that the moments that gaybait the most aren't sterek, they're with like every male character. Scott especially. I think this video really explains why it was Sterek that caught people's attention and not Sciles or Idk, Danny x Scott
surely some of that was down to the showrunner Jeff Davis? i remember an early interview where he said that this world was set in a "post-homophobia world" which.... real unfortunate take given how it treated queer actors on the show (Colton Haynes) in early seasons... and also how it refused to have any main queer characters or engage with that at all in earlier seasons. I realize this was partly due to the times... the show got progressively more queer as it went on. But yeah... the showrunner seemed mighty conflicted about actually portraying any queer romance or relationships initially, playing it mostly for jokes... Suppose being a gay showrunner doesn't mean pushing for that stuff is a priority or comes easily....
@@cheshirecandy this being how I found out Jeff Davis was gay???
Anyway this is a good point
Exactly! I feel like there’s a pretty big chance that the network played a big part in why there weren’t any queer main characters throughout the show. I remember Jeff Davis seeming really excited about the gay hookup scene with Danny when it aired! I could be wrong, but I get the impression that some (not all) of the queerbaiting seen on the show could very well be Jeff taking whatever opportunities that network would allow him to squeeze in some representation… it just didn’t work out very well lol.
Because the story is set within a "homophobic free" universe, which means that heteronormativity doesn't exist. The idea of a man being attracted to other men is just another option; more people are likely to be bi/pan because many queer people in our world are suppressed by (often) unconscious societal influences.
But what Jeff doesn't get into is how cisnormativity, allonormantivity, and monogamy are also ingrained deep within our culture.
All of these interact and feed off of one another.
We don't just live in a homophobic society, we live in a queerphobic one. Anything that deviates from the norm (cis, hetero, allo, monogamous) is considered "other," different. Queer.
Not to mention racism but that's for another time.
If you want to create a queer-friendly universe, you must make it queer-friendly for ALL of us.
“i think i remember when this hit tumblr” summarizes most of my fondest teen wolf nostalgia 💀
I never really understood this ship when the show was airing and even now, looking back the ship didn't really have a solid foundation unlike let's say the Buddie ship does(buck and eddie from 911). HOWEVER the fanfics that came out during the Teenwolf era, Sterek mostly, were very good - almost novel worthy. I dropped the show around season 2 but still read the fanfics because some of these writers cooked. Even now years later, i sometimes still go back to Ao3 and pull up some of my favorite Sterek fics.
any recs? lol
@@LnRit02 A month late but i've got some! (all on ao3, in no particular order): "The Circus at the End of the World" by mikkimouse, "If the ley lines you should follow" by forestofbabel, "A Desperate Arrangement" by mikkimouse, "Windows" by dr_girlfriend, and "hope is the thing with feathers" by ShanaStoryteller.
And my top 3 that I still reread to this day: "Play It Again" by metisket, "Hide of a Life War" by Etharei, "Those Are The Days That Bind Us" by s_a_m,
My main take is that it was pretty unserious of them to spend so much time hyping up Stiles and Derek as a potential ship when Scott and Isaac were RIGHT THERE. Talk about fumbling a great opportunity.
Or even Scott and Stiles. We have plenty of friends to lovers with heterosexual couples, why could’ve we get that we Scott and Stiles??? Especially when Jeff always went on about how their relationship was the heart of the show.
@@mkwhite5054 Oh 100%. really good point w the het comparison
@@mkwhite5054 Ikr? Derek and Stiles hated each other's guts and their dynamic never moved past 'grudging tolerance'. And maybe that's compelling if you're into enemies-to-lovers but to squander the absolutely phenomenal 'And they were roommates!' chemistry that Scisaac had? Rank madness.
(Tiny flags for Scott stiles it's sooo...romantic hahaha)
Scott and Issac were so good, it was probably my favorite ship of the show. I never much cared for Sterek so I def get you. They really did fumble.
I used to be the BIGGEST sterek shipper lol but it still holds a special place in my heart.
The chokehold it had on me in my teens 😂
I still am
I don't doubt that a large part of the Sterek fandom were teenagers as Teen Wolf was starting (I was around 17 myself), but the quality of Sterek fanfiction alone speaks of a certain maturity within the fandom that I've only ever found in older fandoms like Harry Potter or Supernatural. Most writers are also concerned about the age gap and make sure to wait until everybody is over 18 before any lines are crossed, and that's something teenagers back then just didn't care about. Even at 29, I still stand by the fact that fiction is fiction, and while teenager/adult relationships are disgusting in real life, I couldn't care less about what happens in fiction as long as it's entertaining and well thought out. My mentality is something that a lot of teen-early 20s people nowadays already find controversial, but I promise you, the status quo was a LOT worse in 2012. From what I remember, only people who shipped something else with these characters and were antagonistic towards Sterek cared about their age gap.
In my case, Sterek was appealing because it seemed to be promising us a canonical queer relationship in a story that wasn't centered around romance. All I wanted was the normalization of LGBT+ characters and relationships, instead of having all of them be about the Dannys of the world (namely, tertiary characters that never matter and that barely make any appearance), or tragic protagonists in Bury Your Gays type dramas. Going into season 3 and finding out that they seemed to have replaced most of the Sterek interactions with a love interest for Derek that felt like a watered-down female version of Stiles (Jenniffer was clumsy, awkward, smart, and had some scenes with Derek that were suspiciously similar to Sterek scenes in S1, like a wounded Derek jumping in front of her car and her almost running him over) was heartbreaking. And also the fact that they hinted at Stiles being bisexual over and over again and then never mentioned it again... I remember being so excited over a canonically bisexual character that wasn't promiscuous or evil, and I just. My teenaged little queer heart just wanted some representation.
I think a lot of people who didn't engage with fandom in that early 2010s era (or who have maybe forgotten in the years since) forget how different the barometer for what was acceptable was back then. Like, we're talking about a time when the second most popular ship for Supernatural (and prior to Cas' introduction, pretty much the ONLY popular ship in that fandom) was two blood-related brothers. Which isn't to say that nobody was against it at the time, but simply that it was a HUGE chunk of fanworks, and if you were an spn fan back then, that was kind of just something you had to, at minimum, tolerate - or learn how to filter out when looking for other fics. Love it or loathe it, I can't imagine something like that spawning anywhere near the same amount of works today.
So given that environment, it's really no surprise that something like "these ambiguously-aged characters might have an age gap that wouldn't be appropriate in real life" wasn't really a roadblock lol
@@SeptSapphire277 and it was even more extreme if you were also in anime fandoms. In Ouran, the Hitachin twins together was the most popular ship. Sebastian (a who-knows-how-old demon) and Ciel (who was like 12) was the most popular in Kuroshitsuji, Loveless was about a prepubescent boy with virginity-signaling cat ears and a grown adult. Even the ships that involved people of the sameish age were plagued with things that are considered trigger warnings nowadays, like extreme possesivenes, toxic masculinity, and dubcon or noncon. All the toxic and sometimes creepy Japanese BL normalisation bled out a lot in Western fandoms too, and nobody batted an eye because that was our every day bread and butter. Like, that was all we had. Can't exactly be a picky eater when you're starving and the only food you have is rotten - you'll eat it and learn to ignore the stomach ache and nausea that will follow. Growing up with all of that makes you feel like Sterek by comparison was downright tame and wholesome lol. We're extremely lucky nowadays to have so many canon or non-canon ships to choose from, and for understanding what makes a healthy relationship, but people do tend to forget that it wasn't always like this.
@@blueturnips1912 Absolutely! Of the ones you've mentioned I'm only personally familiar with Ouran, but have heard a lot of similar cases to the others. It really was all over back then, to the point that I was genuinely a little surprised that Sterek is seen as problematic by today's standards just bc that period in fandom had so much worse and it was all so much more commonplace lol. I can certainly see why it's not everyone's thing, but it really does feel kind of tame comparatively
Another thing to mention is that Stiles is extremely mature for his age and demonstrates a lot of adult behavior and mentality. This makes sense even in cannon, his mother died when he was young and his dad basically neglected him for a decent amount of time. Being very intelligent he was forced to grow up very quickly. Then when you add all the shit he goes through before 18 by being involved with the supernatural. It is no wonder why nobody cares for the age gap, as he has been through shit most adults never experience. In a way you can't call him a child even if he was not yet 18 years old, as it is insulting considering what he has been through.
I read the title as - why is Shrek - and now the question won´t leave my mind
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this video was about Shrek when I clicked on it. Why IS Shrek? 🤔
@@bookshelfhoneybecause Jeffrey Katzenberg was mad at Disney
Because Shrek is magnificent, and we all need more magnificence in our life.
@@Crouteceleste the truth was just told
"a little lost boyfriend with no one to love" got me
Oh HUNNEY, the Fanfictions helped the ship sooo much it was inevitable for it to be IMMENSE, cause the Writers were doing the DAMNED thing.
The way i NEVER read as much as when i first started reading Sterek fanfics is something that HAS to be studied, and even the bad ones sometimes were better than what JD could come up with.
The Girlies truly GIRLED💅🏽💅🏽💅🏽
Brilliant content as always. After u mentioned the trans masc article I typed 'teen wolf' into my unis online library and wowzer did not know that teen wolf academia was taking place
I found some other super interesting articles while researching! Teen Wolf academia for the win!
one of my biggest tv show takes is that when a character or relationship being gay or seeming gay is played for laughs the joke is really on tptb because they just made it gay for real
I've recently just rewatched Teen Wolf and I have to admit that I've fallen right back down the Sterek rabbit hole. I was instantly reminded of why this ship was/is/has been so popular. You listed it all really well. It's a great analysis. I guess the world in 2011 just wasn't ready for a character who would blur the lines of gender and sexuality in such an organic, natural way. I've never really thought about that being a part of why Stiles was everyone's favorite character, but subconsciously, it must have been. He was the perfect self insert character for people of all genders and sexualities.
btw, have you ever heard of The 100? Because that show was just a clusterfuck of ship wars, baiting and audience gaslighting. That show had two major ships and it managed to fuck over the fans of both of them in equally cruel ways. It's a show that deserves to be studied in that regard.
I never watched the 100! but I definitely remember it and its ships being big on Tumblr back in the day
I was in the fandom and definitely a sterek shipper. "Only a few years older" (few generally meaning 3-5), coupled with no job definitely had me thinking 19 at most for Derek. Allison's aunt definitely seemed older than derek so that was the age gap that flagged for me at the time.
As far as canon backing: they just seemed to have more respect for each other than they did for the others. But, really, for me: they were the parents of the group in the early season. The pairing seemed natural
Jane, I’ve never even seen teen wolf, but i will watch every single one of these videos as long as you put them out
the whole 'inevitability of sterek' section was SO SO good. i'm obsessed w ur theories here
My only experience with teen wolf was seeing mutuals reblog sterek content and honestly I just assumed the entire series was just those two
As someone who read fanfic before watching the show, I cannot tell you about the whiplash I had when I first watched it
Damn. I've been shipping Sterek since 2011. It was refreshing to hear such a well put together analysis without tipping so far onto either side. I'm still not over Tyler Hoechlin saying that he cast his son for the movie because the boy reminded him of Stiles in auditions. There's always been such an odd push and pull, where the actors seemed interested and thankful that fans were so hype, but TPTB seemed half interested, half annoyed like 24/7, and it created a huge mess.
i think one reason showrunners/TBTB have a habit of getting spiteful about ships like this is because they are incapable of understanding the very concept of shipping on the coolboy intellectual level you've achieved here. they don't get that shipping can be completely detached from canon and it's not an indictment on their writing/worldbuilding, its just something some fans are going to do while engaging with the material!! half the time fans don't really care whether something ends up canon as long as they can make their sexually charged gifsets. TBTB are best off ignoring it completely, letting fan reactions influence the direction of the show in any way always makes for disaster imo. great video
You're so right! I mean, I've read so many fanfics about pairing that only met once or that weren't even from the same universe and it doesn't mean that the original show/movie is bad or that I want them to really get together, it's just me taking my silly little dolls and going "now kiss!"
I mean look at the Disney/Anime ships that popped up not long ago
as someone who was obsessed with teen wolf in its golden days, and who didn’t necessarily ship Sterek but definitely read Stiles as bi/queer; this video is awfully well made. It also made me headcanon Derek as asexual, which may not have been the point but I’ll take what I can get ✋ the more sexualized the character, the more asexual I will make him 🤝
youre so right for that, and i love it
that shakira line really got me LMAO. great vid!
screaming
I’ve never watch Teen Wolf but after this video I am a Sterek Stan.
But he grew Up with Scott they were inseparable a unit I mean --- nvm 🤐🫥
i never got past the first 3 episodes of teen wolf, but i have read some spectacular sterek fanfiction back in the day. sterek shippers are so good at making a mountain out of the mole hill
I also think that many women tend to lean towards mlm ships because they don’t have to identify with any of the characters. Women are always seen as sexual objects who have to look a certain way, so being able to enjoy a romance story without being unconsciously aware of those things can be refreshing. I‘m aroace so I‘m no expert on this matter but I can imagine that having two equals who are no target of permanent judgement (esp in Teen Wolf) gives gives people the freedom to actually focus on the romance.
Not relevant to your comment but: I love when you can see from someone's username that you just met a fellow fan in the wild. I'm more of a JGY girlie but still, same fandom!
Also, in a world where you are constantly bombarded with messages about how to correct all your perceived imperfections, reading about a perfect girl who men fight over is not quite as relatable as it could be. At least for me, such narratives often just made me more keenly aware of how I was not nearly as cool as the protagonist, while with m/m romance I can just enjoy the story without my own insecurities ruining the experience.
@@dorian5876 yea that’s definitely understandable. People who judge women for liking mlm content are either extremely privileged, delusional, or just ignorant. There is a thick line between enjoying and fetishizing but those people tend to erase that line completely.
I am a women and mainly read straight romances (ALWAYS written by women though) but even as an asexual I notice that the objectification of my gender often kinda ruins the vibe.
It also doesn’t help that to this day the writers feeld is still dominated by man who most likely never met a woman in their lives. Finding a realistic female character in a romance (a feeld dominated by women) is one thing but as soon as we step into fantasy or sci-fi? Suddenly all women are somehow hot tsunderes who fight over every man like it’s their personal Jesus.
@@LanWuXian So true. I love fantasy but nowadayd I pretty much only read HP fanfiction since I can't stand the way most female characters are written. Although in the recent years there has been a promising boom of queer fantasy, I should probably get on that lol.
a very loaded question, jane mulcahy
that's why this video is an hour long 😭
As a queer make teen I definitely identified with stiles… and understand the appeal of Derek
the repeated cuts to the andrew/jesse collage really took me OUT i was not prepared to see that again
this video is sort of exactly the type of fandom analysis i love. sorta hate how you have to do disclaimers about the ship bc the sterek question is not really a yes/no one, but alas we're on the internet. also the damon derek comparison is so true i never thought of it like that
Sterek shipper here. The age gap thing is like def weird. I always say that scripts are the best source of info so I think that Derek should have been canonically 19. Most shippers now agree Sterek is fine when they are adults bc a 3 year age gap isn't too horrible. I just get angry when Stere-antis throw out random ass ages for Derek and then justify their point. I had someone try to convince me Derek was 21 when he met Kate.
In the pilot, Derek is 19; which means he met Kate, in her 20s, when he was 13.
Big yikes, oof.
But since Tyler, Derek's actor, does NOT look 19, Derek was reconned as 23, which bumps up his age with Kate at 16.
Still yikes, big oof.
The point is that Kate is more of a predator than literal werewolves.
thank you zelda williams, for lisa frankenstein and for the bisexual (?) stiles scene in season 3
THAT WAS HER???
loved her in 'were the world mine' too ❤️👌
This is SUCH a good analysis of queer shipping in fandom culture! You have outdone yourself!
I literally gasped when i saw this notification lmao
I just wanted to make it clear that I watched this video, went outside and just as I was getting into my car, a big truck with the words “Derek’s Towing Company” went past me carrying a Jeep. And yes, I did the exact same spit take that Stiles did when he saw Derek on the FBI tape. 20:40
52:21 you 100% are correct with that. Being a queer guy with adhd who was stupidly nerdy, not very athletic, semi-closeted, and single throughout almost all of high school… there is A LOT that I can relate to with Stiles.
Had I watched the show when I was a bit younger I probably would’ve lived vicariously through Stiles as a self-insert. Now that I’ve started watching the show, I see myself in Stiles, but really recognize him as just a great character.
This is one of the best breakdowns I've seen of why shippers ship a ship. I was on tumblr when it was airing, casually watched the show and here I am in 2024 truly understanding what it was about this ship that made it so big for the first time. Kudos!
I'm so glad you talked about Stiles being hc'd as transmasc! I haven't seen the show, only your videos, but just from them alone I was like yeah he's superrrrr trans coded. I'm a trans guy and I stg I've worn so many of his exact outfits it's embarrassing 😭
I agree that shipping Sterek, Destiel etc. often has nothing to do with the fetishization of gay men. However, as someone who typically enjoys female characters and wlw ships, I do think a lot of it is the result of fandom misogyny and the utter refusal to engage with female characters the way fans do with male characters.
Oh absolutely. Let’s take Thiam as an example. Hayden received a hate mob because she was paired with Liam and is a universally hated character amongst the teen wolf fandom.
Yeah authors will just take the most nothing male characters and just do whatever with them but rarely are female characters afforded this courtesy. And this is totally anecdotal but of the few gay men Ive interacted in fandom, they have all said they enjoy writting and reading about female characters as often if not more than men
@@emiliobustamante2401 I can't speak to the gay men in fandom (I'm a lesbian and most of the other people I know in fandom are queer women) but the thing about obsessing over nothing main characters while ignoring any and all female characters is so true.
While this is absolutely true, I have to add something.
1 - the fandom largely consists of straight women and queer people attracted to men, so very often the fans prefer to engage with characters they find attractive.
2 - most of the time it's not fandom misogyny, it's the creators' misogyny. They write boring female characters noone cares about. How often have we seen a girl character who's only personality trait is "loved by the mc"? or the token girl on mc's team who will always end up with one of the protagonists?
I swear in teen shows the only good female characters are old and/or gay because the writers can't just label them as "blank love interest" (like Ellen and Charlie from SPN).
@@shoobadooba6805 I hate the it's the creator's misogyny excuse. Maybe this was the case in the 1960s and 70s, where the female characters in Star Trek really were pretty one-dimensional. But nowadays, this just isn't true.
If you want proof, compare Sterek and Destiel to the biggest Sapphic ship of the time: Swan Queen. Regina and Emma were two main characters on a hugely popular show and they had every necessary ingredient for ship bait (adversarial relationship turning into friendship, morally ambiguous villain character paired with a hero with a tragic past, opposite personalities that complement each other, Henry has two mommies, I could go on). And even though Swan Queen was very popular by f/f ship standards, it was never anywhere near as popular as the big m/m ships of the time, despite debuting at around the same time and having all the right ingredients.
People in fandom just care less about women (and people of color while we're at it). This is consistently the case to this day, even in shows, movies, and books where the female characters and characters of color are given just as much if not more character exploration than their white male counterparts.
The argument that straight women shipping gay characters is fetishising them absolutely drives me up the wall. I’m a straight woman and I ship lots of pairings…gay men, gay women, straight couples, it doesn’t really matter as long as the characters have an interesting chemistry. I strongly believe that the reason a lot of gay ships exist is because a lot of shows handle female characters and relationships pretty poorly. There’s a lot of repetition, a lot of predictability, and a general focus on sex over emotions. Using supernatural as an example: am I going to ship Dean with one of the many underdeveloed, nearly identical sexy lady characters who show up for an episode or two? Or am I going to ship him with his complicated best friend the genderless celestial being learning to be human, who’s been around for several seasons while fundamentally complimenting and challenging Dean’s character? The gender 100% does not matter here. I would have shipped destiel even if Cas was a woman, even if both of them were women. It has less to do with my straight woman sexual fetishes, and everything to do with me generally enjoying love stories between fully developed and interesting characters.
Exactly, if you make B the most important person in As life and have them save each other all the time people will ship them regardless of gender
on top of this, its really clear when someone is a fetishiser or not, and to lump all female fans of m/m ships into that catagory is really ridiculous when you can so easily spot the weirdos. i think a lot of this has to do with queer people feeling that the presence of straight women in these queer spaces is invasive, not realising that women and straight women especially are a large part of whay these online spaces are able to exist in the first place
i feel like one reason sterek was so popular despite the age gap (speaking as someone who unironically loved sterek during my brief time in the teen wolf fandom around the time season 4 was coming out) is because none of those actors looked like teenagers, so it didnt *feel* like an age gap. like. especially before derek grew some facial hair, if you put derek and stiles next to each other they look like theyre the same age, or at least close enough that it didnt matter
i have to completely honest, when i watched teen wolf as a teenager, i really only registered a semblance of sterek possibility in teen wolf while watching season 6b, mainly because the idea of the two ‘missing’ characters turning up together, who barely interacted in previous season, at the end to basically surprise and help the protagonist, scott, was a silly concept to me that i thought it would be fun/funny if it happened. wasn’t until later i checked the sterek tag on ao3 that i discovered how popular the ship is.
now that you mention how this show presented these two characters, i completely get why young fans were so down bad for this ship, and maybe i would’ve shipped it myself if we had a clearer rendering of derek’s age and role in the show.
as you mentioned, derek is portrayed so enigmatically that he could essentially be a fill-in for any character who has to do a necessary but less important and/or ‘boring’ action that would move along to plot to support the protagonist. i’ve always been a little annoyed with how obscure some moments in teen wolf were, but i was especially annoyed with the show’s handling of derek because no matter how much personality tyler hoechlin put in to the character, i could never get a read on what exactly type of actions derek would do. i just registered him as one of the two main ‘weird guys’ on the show because of his ambiguous morality at times, secrecy, etc. the other main character that i assigned the token label ‘weird guy’ was, not surprisingly, stiles. in that regard, i think your point of how neither derek and stiles had an explicit love interest for a lot of the show, beyond fleeting and/or out-of-reach romantic interests was especially interesting, because to me, despite how different their personalities were, they still ended up in the same ‘weird guy’ metaphorical boat more often than not in my brain.
even though derek was a supernatural creature like the majority of main characters, he was still out of place because of how ambiguous he was (not an all-knowing werewolf, not an average human, not young, not old, not a high schooler, not an adult, not a ‘good guy,’ not a ‘bad guy,’ etc.) so of course people flocked to put the ‘othered’ werewolf with the only human. not only was stiles such a good canvas for people of all backgrounds to project themselves onto, as you mentioned, but derek was a great blank slate for people to project their ideal traits in a romantic partner onto him because of how ‘undefined’ he was. arguably, derek hale could reasonably be portrayed to do almost anything because of how undefined he was.
both derek and stiles were out-of-place ‘weird guys’ with contrasting personalities but both of them also had a similar level of morbidity, albeit in nearly opposite directions, that made them have an interesting dynamic that the fans would, of course, run with.
overall i really wish the show had refined derek’s character a little more because he had so much potential, but the show itself really was fun overall even if it needed a LOT of fine tuning. i have a feeling that if this show was rebooted (and god i hope it never will be tbh, with love), and derek’s age was explicitly defined as the same as stiles, and their dynamic was kept as close to the s1-s2 goofy dynamic as possible (+ the weird teen wolf movie moments ig), people would start picking this ship up again and SPRINTING with it.
"If you clicked on this you know what it is" me, clueless, laughing.
jane i NEED to hear you talk about buddie and 911 bc from the moment eddie showed up on that show the powers that be have been wink wink nudge nudging that ship
i watched that show with my parents for the first couple seasons and just assumed that’s where things were going with those characters. then i come to find via tumblr osmosis that they only JUST made one of the two characters queer after several years and put him in a relationship with a DIFFERENT man. was baffled.
@@LnRit02 ????what? they what?!
@@LnRit02 I am CONVINCED that's the stepping stone to Buddie.
I think Scott gets less traction because he's so whiney. He's survives the odds getting this bite, becomes a super strong supernatural being, ends up excelling in sports, gets the girl, and he still can't stop complaining. It's a little more valid later when there are actual threats, but at the beginning, he's a little insufferable, and it was a bad first impression. Compare that to Derek and Stiles, who actively do shit to fix their issues.
This is one of the smartest and most insightful retrospectives on fandom I have seen in a long time. Another stone-cold Jane classic 😎
That boat video elicits such a negative reaction to my subconscious that I kept flinching every time you put a clip in that I had to get away from my phone
Of course I still like the whole sterek ship but man that video makes me uncomfortable
ikr? I wasn't even in the fandom back then but it feels so mocking and mean spirited
@@deeglossit’s so crazy that the boat video isn’t even the most mean spirited that this show got. i remember one time during a cast interview the interviewer had them read aloud parts of a sterek fic and they acted so disgusted about it. and it was a completely normal fic, an olympic gymnastics au iirc. that shit made me lose a lot of respect for them
@bronzeecho early days of social media interactions between cast and fans... Matt may have keyed into what fans wanted and hoped for (and I think as a, iirc, gay man) maybe did a bit himself (at least I vaguely remember him writing he was a fan of it/the show himself) but he should have stopped and asked where to draw the line in terms of engaging with it. He was the one who got the actor on the boat after all...
For real, lol, I watched this show as an adult when I was bored during the pandemic, didn't get past season 4, wasn't too invested in it. I didn't really know anything about the fandom or the ships before this UA-cam series, and still every time a clip of that boat came up it felt like I was getting hit right in the solar plexus repeatedly - HOW DID ANYONE EVER THINK THAT WAS OKAY ????? I'm just flabbergasted that got approved. Truly, destiel metatextual queerbait walked so sterek could... commit vehicular manslaughter, or something like that. I don't even think Misha went that far. I can't not cringe when it comes up lol
me too. I could not watch it. I had to skip repeatedly.
That comment about being attracted to stiles while relating to him, and the relatability playing into the attraction, i felt really targeted lmao 😅 great video as always ! I'm kinda sad that this is probably going to be the last of the teen wolf series tbh
I still love Sterek to this day, it’s a ship I can always fall back on when I need a good read. It’s sometimes hard to find a fandom with strong writers but they never disappoint here. It never gets old. I’ve been reading fanfiction for 20 years and Sterek writers are some of the best I’ve come across.
Also just an add on, in Supernaturals early days J2 had some pretty good writers on livejournal. I never could get into Destiel though, supernatural was never about that for me. It was more about family.
lmao this video was the first time that I heard the actual audio from the Destiel scene, I never knew about those vine-boom ass sound cues. Really great video!
I had Destielgate buried deep in my brain and your section on it brought back all the depressing hilarity of it. It is as funny as it is absolutely insane.
The best way I've seen the psychological reason for women enjoying gay ships described is something you touched on in this video, which is that it is a fantasy that separates the female viewer from the scene. See the famous quote by Margaret Atwood regarding the inescapability of the male gaze, and how women employ it on themselves: "You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur." Imagining two men together, whether you're placing yourself in the role of one of the characters or only seeing it from the outside, allows you to experience romantic/sexual fantasies without the weight of the male gaze following you like a shadow. Additionally, for people who are on the aro/ace spectrum (like myself), shipping can be a way to explore feelings and situations we don't have or necessarily want to explore in the real world.
Great video!! The sterek nostalgia really hit me hard. They just don't make queerbaiting like they used it.
this was a great analysis! i feel like i always recognized the sort of inherent androgyny of stiles but providing evidence with the psychosexual aspects of horror was excellent and really thought provoking actually!
oH wow, the teen choice award video was the clearest queerbaiting in history. i hope y’all are healed from that now
also omg you’re so right about derek and damon! there’s a world where derek and scott were written to fight over allison and i can see it so clearly
I have never watched a single episode of Teen Wolf but I still come running whenever I see an overly long video essay about Sterek. It's just part of fandom history as a whole.
"A little lost boyfriend with no one to love" 😂😂
Why is there always a destiel confession moment in sterek videos?
Like i did not come here to witness my beloved angel go to superhell. I came to simp over sterek
Handsome angel cannot catch a break from super hell
Destiel confession, I was prepared for, but the johnlock conspiracy?! 😂 I had fan-war flashbacks. The finale was a horrible night for optimistic queer teenage fans everywhere, and I wasn’t even on the frontlines. But this video truly was like time-traveling back to my teenage years, and I really enjoyed this deep dive! It’s funny how it was such a big show at the time and now that it’s been so many years since the finale, we just don’t talk about it very much. Also, that show intro should’ve won an award for how cool it was.
just binged your other two Teen Wolf videos and I love the reoccurring gag of the Derek Hale power stance png and Tyler Posey being absolutely out of pocket at any given chance
Little lost boyfriend with no one to love is how I’m going to refer to Derek from now on.
on the topic of shippers, what i wish newer generations understood is that it just means you enjoy the ship. doesn't mean you believe it to be canon or want it to be. and i fully believe the writers of teen wolf or supernatural could never have achieved what the heroes on ao3 keep contributing to. applying the shipper lens to a show is fun, but you don't have to advocate for it to be the only or primary one
this right here exactly!!! there seems to have been a shift in fan culture in the last few years where now everyone is arguing over whether their ship is more likely to be canon than another ship, but back in the days of old we all knew that none of us were getting canon so it wasnt really an argument to have 💀
i’ve never watched an episode of teen wolf in my life, never had friends who were into it, i know nothing about it. i am LOCKED IN.
I usually don't leave comments like this, but yay, I'm early. So hyped for some 2010s gay werewolf ship analysis.