@@Khris-wt7br People who saw him from the start, knew that he was no system QB, which is why he did what he did. Bledsoe could not move the ball down the field for an entire game. Once Brady took over, he easily moved it down the field, even if it only led to FG's. At the least, you want a QB who can move it. Dak can move it.
@@HardCold-AlquanBledsoe wanted to air it out cause he had a cannon arm but that doesn’t fit with belichik’s defense, Brady worked cause he took what the defense gives him and relied on his RBs until he turned into an elite passer, once he did you’ll notice as the offense became top ranked, the total defense took a hit cause the offense ending td drives in 2 minutes but they still had great redzone defense so you could go for 400+yds all day but end up kicking field goals all game.
Tom masked a lot of Bill's mistakes with personnel. Tom also made sure the defense got enough rest between each series and that helped them play great. Tom taking pay cuts helped tremendously as well.
@@Alex-sf9boI hate Tom, but man he was an amazing teammate to his receivers. I didn’t realize that until he was willing to live with AB to get him a shot.
@@twizzy585ots and he is the first one to say that. Bill's defenses also let him down multiple times, most notably SB52. Even at their height, conceded 29 in SB38.
As a Patriot fan. I always believed Tom Brady was the main ingredient to the success that they had in New England. And bill belichick took a lot of credit for it too… now you guys see 😂
Remember, Belichick’s teams are a miserable work environment. Players were willing to overlook that because of all the winning and prime time games. Now without the winning players are avoiding NE
Shows you how much Pete Carrol got jobbed. He was replaced by a mediocre coach after three years of winning seasons. Imagine replacing a guy that never had a losing season with a guy who only had one winning season out of four with the Browns? If Pete had one more year to prove himself, he would have gotten Brady and the history of the NFL would forever be different.
For context Andy Reid coaching tree includes, Harbaugh, Pederson, Ron Rivera, Sean McDermott, Todd Bowles and those are just the active ones. There were others that had mild success like Nagy, Childress, Shurmu, Frazier and others. But his tree is much better Belichick.
Spoken as a true football fans. I didn’t think of this but I looked it up and it was straight facts thank you for the ammunition to those bill belchick lovers
He can't. Kyle Shannahan, Mike McDaniel and Andy Reid can. Maybe Ben Johnson, Lafleur and McVay too. They inflate QB stats. Can get Sam Darnold to put Peyton Manning esque stats. Bill is the total opposite. He ruins QB stats.
@@erikpuka2627can you give specific examples. Because I’m trying to find any instances where those coaches have won anything with “anyone off the streets”
Non of Belichick coaching trees succeeded outside of N.E. It was because they didn't have Brady. Now Belichick is in the same boat. He has become an embarrassment just like his other coaches.
Bill O'Brien the HC was successful and Brian Flores in his short stint as a HC had a winning record and was only fired because he held a grudge against the organization for taking Tua over Herbert.
@@King_Mac80 uhhhh....you got that info mostly wrong my brotha 🙏🏾 Brian was pushed out because he wasn't trying to TANK for Tua. He was offered $ for losing and that didn't sit well with him.
Your a clown Bill created that culture and you gonna believe in what these people say and what ur feeble mind thinks.... Je created culture from top to bottom.... first 3 super bowls were defensive driven. Just like the other one against the rams 13 years later..... you think Tom was gonna win if he got drafted in 6th round by another team do youuuuuu... I'll never understand the lack of depth people don't have.... I can paint a bigger picture ... I don't have time
Acho KILLED this segment ! As a pats fan BEFORE Brady! Belichick is OVERRATED LIKE NO OTHER!!! It was ALL TB since he pulled that jersey and went in the huddle ..
@@thefitnesslife4988 Belichick threw that game in a temper-tantrum because Kraft made him trade Jimmy G, when Bill was wanting to trade Brady! He cost the Patriots MORE than just a Super Bowl - he cost them the historic opportunity to be the FIRST franchise to win 3 in a row! I would have fired him for THAT!!!!
Their egos won’t let them admit it’s the players that made them what they are .. I encountered a lot of Patriot fans over the years that truly believed once Tommy departed Bill’s days were numbered ..
@@zcam1969 Compare what Belichick's defense did in 2001 playoff to Jeff Fishers's defense did in 1999 playoff. Remember, Belichick invested lot lot more on defense. Brady needed defense, NOT Brady needed Belichick's defense.
@@williamli6200 Brady was pivotal but to disregard the defense over the course of the pats dominance is ignorant and Bill was the head of the defense... he's a terrible GM
I’m glad people are finally willing to listen to this argument. Bill Belichick isn’t a bad coach but he’s definitely not the greatest coach of all time. If he wanted that honor, he should have retired when Tom left
And he wanted all the glory to himself so he thought he would win a ring without Tom… and it won’t happen and I think the world is starting to see that.
No kidding he proved it when he got full of himself and tried using a DC as an OC and continues to neglect spending serious draft capital on skill positions.
I've been saying Andy Reid was a better head coach than Belichick for a while. Before Reid got Mahomes, he went to 4 NFC titles and a SB appearance with McNabb, coached Vick to the best season of his career, and In 5 seasons with Alex Smith, all 5 were winning seasons with 4 of those having playoff appearances. He's had success with multiple QBs outside of Mahomes while Belichick has struggled without Brady. The difference between him and Belichick is that Belichick got his generational QB earlier in his career with Brady, while Andy got his generational QB later in his career with Mahomes
Love big red, great at maximizing his qbs' talent (I think all his qbs literally had their best years with him) but his clock management in Philly was atrocious and cost him big games, and iirc he missed the playoffs because of that. Bill's clock management and understanding of the rules is top tier.
I mean... this really just speaks to how great Brady is people talk about mahomes as the goat now but really think about what these guys are saying and think that Brady only had a super team for bout 2 years of his career....
What do you mean? Yeah he lost them two but I mean miracle catch off the helmet and all that but man think about this Brady played how many years and had how many superbowl appearances? Then look at the percentage of how many Superbowls Brady was in compared to how many years he played.... that's the most insane stat that will never happen again. And no other superstar in any sport can compare... I think it's close to 40% however if he had retired from New England than it would be like he was in half of them.... that's such an insane fact.. I'm a raiders fan unfortunately because it hurts and I hated Brady until the later years and then I cheered for him because I'm a fan of people making history
...Belichick usta trade all his first round picks for a whole bunch of 3rd, 4th, and 5th round picks then go head and make pro bowlers out of those same late round picks...what it boiled down to was when you got Brady and you winning, players step up to they highest potential ( remember Troy Brown playing corner? lol )...I call it the "Jordan Effect" but in this case it was the "Brady Effect"
As a patriot fan…i have to agree 100% Bill has not done anything after TB12 left and it def showing clearly that he is not the best coach but a good defensive mind coach.
I think it depends on how you define legacy. You can't start erasing Belichick's resume like he wasn't the coach when they won those 6 rings, but I do think it provides more context for his resume. Part of legacy is your accomplishments, but the other part is people's opinion of you. The opinion now is that he wouldn't have gotten those 6 rings without Brady and that absolutely damages his legacy
Love it. Love it. Love it. Belichick exposed for the middling coach he is. Without Tom Brady he has never accomplished jack. And saddest of all, Belichick would never give Tom credit for his contribution. Now that's low. Time to give Belichick the boot. 🥾🏉
The problem is bill as a GM. His downfall is him wanting control over everything which has led him to prioritizing the teams defense rather than offense. If he had the ability draft good WRs (something pats are terrible at) over the last couple years or trade for them, we would have been fine this year
I don't think he prioritizes the defense. He just doesn't know what to do with the offense. Last 5 first round picks for the Patriots, DB, OL, QB, S, WR. That's 3 out of 5 that are offensive players. He just can't select or develop those players correctly.
@@KiLlACaMrOn94 yeah but who threw for more than 500 yards and pulled out all stops to win it? (Also helped the Eagles did a fake “closed training session” knowing the Patriots would spy on it 😆)
@@KiLlACaMrOn94 also who could’ve seen Nick Foles playing the game of his life on the biggest of stages after a few not very good games after Wentz went down?
Bill takes a little bit of a hit because unlike other coaches, bill is shopping for the groceries and it isn’t working out with him putting together his own team
It’s more likely that the success was because of chemistry. Brady needed the crucible of pressure and input that Bill was willing to provide. The constant need to improve and understand was mutual . From the crucible the finished product Brady was made, and then ejected. Brady could then go to any team and be successful. Bradys mindset at that point was indestructible. His knowledge set deeper than any coaches, and he approached each coach with respect. He learned that from Bill, Brady knows he became what he is because of Bill! Bill needed another quarterback to form and make into his image. There in is the problem… Brady was rare. He was driven by the pressure and he was ultra disciplined and has a brilliant mind. This is why Bill became the GM. He was looking for the raw material. He had found Brady with the 199th pick, and he knew there was somebody out there like Brady. It just turned out finding that person was much harder than he imagined.
Well said. This is how I feel as well. It was definitely the two working together that played a role in their success. And Brady masked Bill’s deficiencies, while Bill was able to coach up defense and the special teams with guys off the street. The argument has swung too far in favor of Brady in the last couple years and since Brady won a SB with the Bucs. The truth is somewhere closer to the middle and they needed each other. Arians was a great coach as well.
@@hawkner Compare what Belichick's defense did in 2001 playoff to Jeff Fishers's defense did in 1999 playoff. Remember, Belichick invested lot lot more on defense. Brady needed defense, NOT Brady needed Belichick's defense.
I think Bill is a major case of "wait long enough to see you self become the villain" he might not be the greatest, but this conversation would have never been had when brady had just left
Let’s take away Lawrence Taylor from Bill Parcel , Kobe Jordan , and Shauq from Phill. Zonka from Shula..Emmit,Playmaker and Troy from Jimmy🤔 FOH they all average without Great Players 😑
I think what people fail to realize is how much losing an asset like Tom Brady, who you've had for over a decade, can leave an organization bankrupt for a few years. They have less investments in young talent compared to other teams. Investments take time to flourish and drafting to rebuild takes a few years
Bill with Tom has dominated the NFL for 20years. He has a drought for a very few years and you want to judge hus whole career on it. 3rd most wins, 6 SB and 3x COY... nothing to look down on.
Literally the last Super Bowl win vs the rams it was all about the defense the offense scored 13 points belichick held a rams team that averaged 33 points that season to 3 points in a Super Bowl.
So the 41 pts and 37 pts Brady dropped in the first two playoff games, meant nothing? You said the Rams averaged 33 ppg, well Todd Gurley was a huge part of that and he was damaged goods by the SB. That is very misleading.
So the 41 pts and 37 pts Brady dropped in the first two playoff games, meant nothing? You said the Rams averaged 33 ppg, well Todd Gurley was a huge part of that and he was damaged goods by the SB. That is very misleading.
So the 41 pts and 37 pts Brady dropped in the first two playoff games, meant nothing? You said the Rams averaged 33 ppg, well Todd Gurley was a huge part of that and he was damaged goods by the SB. That is very misleading.
Let’s say if bill goes to the chargers with Herbert and Kellen Moore and with that big names on the defensive side he can change the defense and can win a superbowl. That’s what Brady did he went to Super Bowl ready team that just needed an elite QB.
Nah. In 2001 Belichick had the Patriots with Bledsoe and was on the hot seat to be fired. Team was 0-2 before Brady came in for the injured Bledsoe and took that team to win the SuperBowl. Stop talking hypotheticals with the Chargers. The scenario literally happened in New England and you ignore it. Also, Belichick isn’t paying Herbert $262 Million. He’s use to taking that Brady discount.
@@colbyryans1018So if Belichick could take over teams that are already super bowl contenders Belichick would also make them super bowl caliber wow very insightful
Belichick believed in his own hype over Tom Brady's greatness.. They went from 1st to 3rd to in the AFC east since losing Brady.. When the Jets figure out their QB situation the Patriots will easily be the worst team in the division
Bill has a bad record without Brady. Tom was literally putting up similar numbers to rodgers when rodgers was “the best player we’ve ever seen” only difference was Brady was actually winning. He never got enough credit for the super bowls when he was in New England. He had to leave and win one in his first year on another team for people to start to notice.
If you thought Brady was average then you are an absolute football illiterate. What part about throwing for 4/5 of the top passing games in SB history didn't you get? Brady's thrown for +300 yards in the playoffs an astronomical 18 times For Context (Manning 2nd all time at 6) Brady once threw for an NFL record 5 TD's in 1 quarter in a New England Snowstorm (2009 vs Titans) He's 9 for 9 for 9 TD's passing to a Linebacker (Mike Vrabel) take up another sport pal
I hated Bill and Tom, but they totally got two different situations going on. Tom went to a decent team and picked up Hall of Fame level talent to help win another Super Bowl and Bill got the ruins of the dynasty. After their first dynasty it took them 10 years to win and it 7 to get back to it. That’s happens to each dynasty the past 50 years
@@williamli6200 with the highest paid qb at the time but that’s why Brady worked. He was the killer in offense while bIll kept the game close. Also not the mention the two HOF kickers they both benefited from. A lot of those games were close
@@DaniloReport You think it is quite easy to score 24 points without a deep threat and without a redzone threat, don't you? Well, check how Bengals failed to win a SB.
@@williamli6200 unfortunately I had to watch the whole dynasty but yeah when the whole team played solid like they did. Also no penalty on both side of the ball and so many luck plays on both sides.
@@DaniloReport Belichick needed *high QUALITY plays from his QB with a CHEAP squad.* When he had such a QB, he looked like a genius; when he didn't, he looked like an id10t. Brady delivered 3 comeback wins with much worse squad in 2001. You put THAT Brady in last 3 season, Belitard would stay as a "genius".
Gotta love all the casual fans saying it was all Brady made Belichick. They complimented each other well. Brady left NE to a super team ready to win now. The bucs the year prior had gone 7-9 with their QB throwing 30 Ints, and BB is stuck at NE trying to rebuild a team after TB12 left them in shambles after he complained to Kraft BB was trying to replace him with Jimmy G, who you can say what you want, facts are facts, hes gone to the SB with another team. BB had been an average coach in other situations where he was only coach and not GM. Not till he got to NE did he obtain full autonomy of his team. BB has been in football for over 30 years. Dude is over 70 years old. Many 70 year olds cant even remember their name anymore. TB12 made BB just as much as BB made TB12. BB instilled a winning methodolgy in TB12 and always fielded a great team and built great game plans. It hurts to see all the slander put on the greatest coach of all time.
Idk, people don’t criticize Greg Popovich like this. Hes def one of the best the NBA has ever seen but he hasnt done much without Duncan, Kawhi, Parker, all the players that made the Spurs great. Im not a Bill Belichick fan and I dont watch the pats to know how good he actually is but the argument seems disingenuous to me. A coach can only be so good at the end of the day he’s not one of the guys out on the field making plays. A coach needs decent players to have a good team.
Thats because barring major injury the spurs usually aren't bad enough Poppovich to land a top5 pick. But he also developed Kawhi, Parker, Ginobli and others who were late 1st or 2nd round picks.
The fact that Shady is saying if you put other coaches on these Patriots teams that Bill put together actually helps Bill's argument as a great coach. Like he put the teams together 🤦🏾♂️
The packer commentator hit it 100 .. i’m a Patriot fan. The team is like the Philadelphia 76rs nba team grieving AI3 ( a process that stays in place or still grieving since TB12 left whatever the case maybe
The comp to Reid is so bad. McNabb was arguably a top 3 QB in the league at his peak (behind Peyton and Brady). Mac is a bottom 5 QB. As Joy said, the greatest coaches typically have great players. No one can be expected to compete for super bowls with bad players, especially when the bad player is the QB. Now if we want to get in Belichick the GM, that legacy has certainly taken a hit. It's clear Brady was masking personnel flaws. But the coach? No, he's still unequivocally one of the greatest, and the Pats needed both to succeed the way they did. The 2018 run is all you need as proof. In the conference game when the defense let Mahomes surge back, Brady needed to finish it off. In the super bowl when the Rams D held Brady in check, Belichick's D held the high-flying Rams offense even more in check.
Joy said it great coach needed a great players too. With respect to bill yes he didn’t have a good QB. The great thing about TB is that he wasn’t a natural born talent he work hard and developed it. That separates him to the rest.
This is so ridiculous. Belichick and Tom are great. In Pats first super bowl, Tom didn’t throw for 3000 yards. It’s not like he was some elite qb right away. Belichick deserves more credit for first few titles and less so moving forward. Saying Belichick isn’t a great coach is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard
Belichicks CAREER HEAD COACHING RECORD w/out a Tom Brady 80-90. Not even a .500 average. GOAT Head Coach?? What a joke!! 80-90 record as Head Coach w/out Brady.
So you're comparing 19 seasons with Tom Brady to 3 years and 4 games without him? How can you even make a comparison like that? They BOTH helped each other.
I’m going to agree to disagree. They both needed each other Brady: always had top 5 defenses and O-lines Brady:played in the AFC east for 20 years when it was the worst division in football for 20 years straight not one good player in 20 years besides Darrel revis Brady: played with no joke about 25 HOF Brady got lucky Tuck rule Seahawks not running at the 1 yard line Falcons not running the ball in kicking 🦵 the 3 points Gurley injured Mahomes O-line was injured dee ford offsides penalty AFC championship? Go look at all brady Super Bowl wins never once he had a bad defense
I am the biggest TB12 fan ever. But this is Bogus. They needed each other. He’s old now. Times have changed. Bill the GM has lost his fast ball. The talent is gone in NE. That train is long gone. Just like the Bulls. Bill’s Legacy is set in stone.
That's what happens when you don't have the Foxboro goat. If they had the same record but had Tom Brady, everyone knows that you would be seeing them come December.
Bill and Brady are equally responsible for those rings they were a perfect match. People want to diss one or the other facts are those Super Bowls were much more than those 2. Media need this Bill vs Brady bs😂
Listen to The Skip Bayless Show podcast: sprtspod.fox/SkipBaylessShowPodcast
Y’all feel the same about Coach Pop and the Spurs?
@@bama2054Well, he’s got Wembayama now, so it might still change.
For years people kept saying Brady is a system QB. Now we know that he was the system.
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
People who actually watched TB12's career know he was just a system QB to start.
@@Khris-wt7br People who saw him from the start, knew that he was no system QB, which is why he did what he did. Bledsoe could not move the ball down the field for an entire game. Once Brady took over, he easily moved it down the field, even if it only led to FG's. At the least, you want a QB who can move it. Dak can move it.
@@HardCold-Alquan he gained experience and became a better quarterback. In the beginning, he was just a manager.
@@HardCold-AlquanBledsoe wanted to air it out cause he had a cannon arm but that doesn’t fit with belichik’s defense, Brady worked cause he took what the defense gives him and relied on his RBs until he turned into an elite passer, once he did you’ll notice as the offense became top ranked, the total defense took a hit cause the offense ending td drives in 2 minutes but they still had great redzone defense so you could go for 400+yds all day but end up kicking field goals all game.
Tom masked a lot of Bill's mistakes with personnel. Tom also made sure the defense got enough rest between each series and that helped them play great. Tom taking pay cuts helped tremendously as well.
Tom made everyone better
@@Alex-sf9boI hate Tom, but man he was an amazing teammate to his receivers. I didn’t realize that until he was willing to live with AB to get him a shot.
Those defenses helped him aswell
@@twizzy585ots and he is the first one to say that. Bill's defenses also let him down multiple times, most notably SB52. Even at their height, conceded 29 in SB38.
@@Alex-sf9bo except Pats his last year... or Bucs his last year...
As a Patriot fan. I always believed Tom Brady was the main ingredient to the success that they had in New England. And bill belichick took a lot of credit for it too… now you guys see 😂
Same it was always Tom
Same! I was saying it for years. Finally feel vindicated
Remember, Belichick’s teams are a miserable work environment. Players were willing to overlook that because of all the winning and prime time games. Now without the winning players are avoiding NE
It’s pretty clear that Brady was the reason for the majority of success New England had
Belichick was lucky he had Tom Brady all those years or I don’t think he would have won all those Superbowls.
Shows you how much Pete Carrol got jobbed. He was replaced by a mediocre coach after three years of winning seasons. Imagine replacing a guy that never had a losing season with a guy who only had one winning season out of four with the Browns? If Pete had one more year to prove himself, he would have gotten Brady and the history of the NFL would forever be different.
As far as I’m concerned he wouldn’t have any
Pete Carroll was the coach at USC when Matt Hasselbeck led the Seahawks to the SB in 2005.
For context Andy Reid coaching tree includes, Harbaugh, Pederson, Ron Rivera, Sean McDermott, Todd Bowles and those are just the active ones. There were others that had mild success like Nagy, Childress, Shurmu, Frazier and others. But his tree is much better Belichick.
Dougie P.
Spoken as a true football fans. I didn’t think of this but I looked it up and it was straight facts thank you for the ammunition to those bill belchick lovers
and Belichick has more rings than all of them
Bill Walsh's coaching tree is better than Andy Reid's. Especially when you remember that Reid came from Bill Walsh's tree.
Not a one of them got a Ring except Pedersen who's looking like fluke.
WTF is the point of this ?
Stop it.
I was told by fans & “experts” for years bill can win with anyone off the street so far that’s been proven to be a fallacy.
I mean, youre not wrong. People were saying that for a long time
He can't. Kyle Shannahan, Mike McDaniel and Andy Reid can. Maybe Ben Johnson, Lafleur and McVay too. They inflate QB stats. Can get Sam Darnold to put Peyton Manning esque stats. Bill is the total opposite. He ruins QB stats.
@@erikpuka2627can you give specific examples. Because I’m trying to find any instances where those coaches have won anything with “anyone off the streets”
@@HugePapa56 Brock Purdy, Tua, Garappolo, Alex Smith. Doug Pederson in 2017. Theie playcalling so great they make bad QBs produce good stats
He could win as LONG AS BRADY WAS THERE
Non of Belichick coaching trees succeeded outside of N.E. It was because they didn't have Brady. Now Belichick is in the same boat. He has become an embarrassment just like his other coaches.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Bill O'Brien the HC was successful and Brian Flores in his short stint as a HC had a winning record and was only fired because he held a grudge against the organization for taking Tua over Herbert.
@@King_Mac80 uhhhh....you got that info mostly wrong my brotha 🙏🏾 Brian was pushed out because he wasn't trying to TANK for Tua. He was offered $ for losing and that didn't sit well with him.
Your a clown Bill created that culture and you gonna believe in what these people say and what ur feeble mind thinks.... Je created culture from top to bottom.... first 3 super bowls were defensive driven. Just like the other one against the rams 13 years later..... you think Tom was gonna win if he got drafted in 6th round by another team do youuuuuu... I'll never understand the lack of depth people don't have.... I can paint a bigger picture ... I don't have time
Andd amoron
Acho KILLED this segment ! As a pats fan BEFORE Brady! Belichick is OVERRATED LIKE NO OTHER!!! It was ALL TB since he pulled that jersey and went in the huddle ..
terrible personnel & executive decisions are CLEARLY EXPOSED withOUT TB12
The fact that the coaching tree was so bad for the Pats (Post Pats) shows that even those guys looked good ONLY because of Brady
Take out the Brady years, and Belichick has a losing record! JUST THE FACTS!!!!
Belicheck benched the superbowl hero Malcolm butler during the pats eagles superbowl and costed Brady another chip. Never forget that.
@@thefitnesslife4988 nah butler was terrible in playoffs that’s why he was benched
@@thefitnesslife4988 Belichick threw that game in a temper-tantrum because Kraft made him trade Jimmy G, when Bill was wanting to trade Brady! He cost the Patriots MORE than just a Super Bowl - he cost them the historic opportunity to be the FIRST franchise to win 3 in a row! I would have fired him for THAT!!!!
@@Alex-sf9boEric Rowe who played in place of Butler only played 3 games that season and was getting cooked all thought out that SB though 😂
@@dacryptkeeper6836exactly!!!!! I will never forgive him for that.
Their egos won’t let them admit it’s the players that made them what they are .. I encountered a lot of Patriot fans over the years that truly believed once Tommy departed Bill’s days were numbered ..
He is famous for the quote "Player win them, coaches lose them"
Shady is brutally and brilliantly correct 🙂.
BS
@@zcam1969 Compare what Belichick's defense did in 2001 playoff to Jeff Fishers's defense did in 1999 playoff. Remember, Belichick invested lot lot more on defense.
Brady needed defense, NOT Brady needed Belichick's defense.
Saying that about anything shady says is crazy
@@twizzy585ots With THE Brady of early 2000s, the Pats in last 3 seasons would be SB contender, and Belitard would look like a genius.
@@williamli6200 Brady was pivotal but to disregard the defense over the course of the pats dominance is ignorant and Bill was the head of the defense... he's a terrible GM
I’m glad people are finally willing to listen to this argument. Bill Belichick isn’t a bad coach but he’s definitely not the greatest coach of all time. If he wanted that honor, he should have retired when Tom left
He's a mediocre coach and a terrible GM.
And he wanted all the glory to himself so he thought he would win a ring without Tom… and it won’t happen and I think the world is starting to see that.
No kidding he proved it when he got full of himself and tried using a DC as an OC and continues to neglect spending serious draft capital on skill positions.
@@chadwickerman hahah u r funny
He's a bad coach. It's clear now
I've been saying Andy Reid was a better head coach than Belichick for a while. Before Reid got Mahomes, he went to 4 NFC titles and a SB appearance with McNabb, coached Vick to the best season of his career, and In 5 seasons with Alex Smith, all 5 were winning seasons with 4 of those having playoff appearances. He's had success with multiple QBs outside of Mahomes while Belichick has struggled without Brady. The difference between him and Belichick is that Belichick got his generational QB earlier in his career with Brady, while Andy got his generational QB later in his career with Mahomes
Love big red, great at maximizing his qbs' talent (I think all his qbs literally had their best years with him) but his clock management in Philly was atrocious and cost him big games, and iirc he missed the playoffs because of that. Bill's clock management and understanding of the rules is top tier.
I mean... this really just speaks to how great Brady is people talk about mahomes as the goat now but really think about what these guys are saying and think that Brady only had a super team for bout 2 years of his career....
Even the two losses to the Giants under 20 points scored 😂😂😂😂😂🤡
What do you mean? Yeah he lost them two but I mean miracle catch off the helmet and all that but man think about this Brady played how many years and had how many superbowl appearances? Then look at the percentage of how many Superbowls Brady was in compared to how many years he played.... that's the most insane stat that will never happen again. And no other superstar in any sport can compare... I think it's close to 40% however if he had retired from New England than it would be like he was in half of them.... that's such an insane fact.. I'm a raiders fan unfortunately because it hurts and I hated Brady until the later years and then I cheered for him because I'm a fan of people making history
Brady isn’t just the best quarterback he is the literal best player ever!! Idk how idk why but you can’t coach that
I’ve been saying this for years!! So happy the truth is coming out
...Belichick usta trade all his first round picks for a whole bunch of 3rd, 4th, and 5th round picks then go head and make pro bowlers out of those same late round picks...what it boiled down to was when you got Brady and you winning, players step up to they highest potential ( remember Troy Brown playing corner? lol )...I call it the "Jordan Effect" but in this case it was the "Brady Effect"
As a patriot fan…i have to agree 100% Bill has not done anything after TB12 left and it def showing clearly that he is not the best coach but a good defensive mind coach.
Shady you the man, Preach!
Just want to point out... John Madden still has the highest winning percentage of any head coach.
And has his own video game that belichecks never been in
Madden is better than belicheeet
@@MikeMitchell-y3m🙄🙄
And only has 1 ring.
@@hitek9too255 without needing Tom Brady to get it for him
And thus we finally understand the saying, "coaches coach. players play."
Some people fall into pits of despair. Some fall into pits of money. That’s fate. Tom Brady fell into Bills lap and changed his fate for the better
Life without Brady
I think it depends on how you define legacy. You can't start erasing Belichick's resume like he wasn't the coach when they won those 6 rings, but I do think it provides more context for his resume. Part of legacy is your accomplishments, but the other part is people's opinion of you. The opinion now is that he wouldn't have gotten those 6 rings without Brady and that absolutely damages his legacy
how many rings phil jackson has without michael jordan and kobe bryant? reid without mahomes?
Reid without mahomes is way better than Bill without brady
Shout out to all the people who said Tom had no talent and it was all Bills system that made him look good
Love it. Love it. Love it. Belichick exposed for the middling coach he is. Without Tom Brady he has never accomplished jack. And saddest of all, Belichick would never give Tom credit for his contribution. Now that's low. Time to give Belichick the boot. 🥾🏉
Joey muthafuckin Gibbs... nobody did more with less... 5 Superbowl app... with no franchise QB
The problem is bill as a GM. His downfall is him wanting control over everything which has led him to prioritizing the teams defense rather than offense. If he had the ability draft good WRs (something pats are terrible at) over the last couple years or trade for them, we would have been fine this year
I don't think he prioritizes the defense. He just doesn't know what to do with the offense. Last 5 first round picks for the Patriots, DB, OL, QB, S, WR. That's 3 out of 5 that are offensive players. He just can't select or develop those players correctly.
Bill cost Tom Brady several Superbowls especially benching Malcolm Butler.
Nah had nothing to do with that butler was awful in the playoffs and the pats held the rams the next year to 3 points without butler
Shady McCoy is 100% right
Let’s not forget. At his peak WITH Tom Brady. Lost the SB to Doug Pederson and Nick Foles 😉
Because of ego…
@@KiLlACaMrOn94 yeah but who threw for more than 500 yards and pulled out all stops to win it?
(Also helped the Eagles did a fake “closed training session” knowing the Patriots would spy on it 😆)
@@KiLlACaMrOn94 also who could’ve seen Nick Foles playing the game of his life on the biggest of stages after a few not very good games after Wentz went down?
And Eli Manning TWICE!
Patriots lost because Belichek decides to bench Malcom Butler for reasons still unknown. I wish Kraft got rid of Belichek instead of Brady
GREAT SHOWS GANG!!!
That was great team work and was fun watching!!!
Bill takes a little bit of a hit because unlike other coaches, bill is shopping for the groceries and it isn’t working out with him putting together his own team
It’s more likely that the success was because of chemistry. Brady needed the crucible of pressure and input that Bill was willing to provide. The constant need to improve and understand was mutual . From the crucible the finished product Brady was made, and then ejected. Brady could then go to any team and be successful. Bradys mindset at that point was indestructible. His knowledge set deeper than any coaches, and he approached each coach with respect. He learned that from Bill, Brady knows he became what he is because of Bill!
Bill needed another quarterback to form and make into his image. There in is the problem… Brady was rare. He was driven by the pressure and he was ultra disciplined and has a brilliant mind.
This is why Bill became the GM. He was looking for the raw material. He had found Brady with the 199th pick, and he knew there was somebody out there like Brady. It just turned out finding that person was much harder than he imagined.
So why can't bill do this with any other quarterback? What was Bill's record as coach of the Patriots before Brady started again?
love the logic and common sense in this debate by these guys/gal. Great stuff
Shady with the HOT take but He’s RIGHT!
Bill is still a great coach, he’s just a horrific GM. Mainly the lack of talent is what Brady covered up.
Well said. This is how I feel as well. It was definitely the two working together that played a role in their success. And Brady masked Bill’s deficiencies, while Bill was able to coach up defense and the special teams with guys off the street. The argument has swung too far in favor of Brady in the last couple years and since Brady won a SB with the Bucs. The truth is somewhere closer to the middle and they needed each other. Arians was a great coach as well.
@@hawkner Compare what Belichick's defense did in 2001 playoff to Jeff Fishers's defense did in 1999 playoff. Remember, Belichick invested lot lot more on defense.
Brady needed defense, NOT Brady needed Belichick's defense.
Pretty much
I think Bill is a major case of "wait long enough to see you self become the villain" he might not be the greatest, but this conversation would have never been had when brady had just left
It was all Tom!!
Its a lot different when your offense isnt giving you 29ppg... coach'em up, Belichump
Joy is the best !!! ❤
Alex Curry >>
Let’s take away Lawrence Taylor from Bill Parcel , Kobe Jordan , and Shauq from Phill. Zonka from Shula..Emmit,Playmaker and Troy from Jimmy🤔 FOH they all average without Great Players 😑
@@peeweedee1Comedythat would be a valid argument however Bill picks the players, so that’s also on him
Naaaaah.
“25” is right. That’s just an honest observation.
TY Speak
Joy made some good points that I think went over their heads lol 🤷🏽♂️🤦🏾♂️😂😂
Exactly, Brady played with great defenses
How is this even a question anymore?
I love Shady, he is great!!!
Well the 3 person lineup that should be emerged this segment.
I remember 1yr Tom had 0 receivers over the height of 5'8. Welker, Branch, still dominated
I think what people fail to realize is how much losing an asset like Tom Brady, who you've had for over a decade, can leave an organization bankrupt for a few years. They have less investments in young talent compared to other teams. Investments take time to flourish and drafting to rebuild takes a few years
Brady took pay cuts to allow them to build a team. Bill just sucks at building offenses that can compete.
@@FrizzKid05that truth
I know Joy is always thinking: "Where did these guys go to school at?"
They just need to move on from Jones. Start Zappe. Try to get Caleb Williams. Tank for Sanders in 2 years.
Bill with Tom has dominated the NFL for 20years. He has a drought for a very few years and you want to judge hus whole career on it. 3rd most wins, 6 SB and 3x COY... nothing to look down on.
Mike Tomlin and andie Reid top 2 coaches in the last 20 years
Literally the last Super Bowl win vs the rams it was all about the defense the offense scored 13 points belichick held a rams team that averaged 33 points that season to 3 points in a Super Bowl.
So how about the 34 points the defense gave up against KC and Brady won that game??
@@omizzy20Seahawks int now what
So the 41 pts and 37 pts Brady dropped in the first two playoff games, meant nothing? You said the Rams averaged 33 ppg, well Todd Gurley was a huge part of that and he was damaged goods by the SB. That is very misleading.
So the 41 pts and 37 pts Brady dropped in the first two playoff games, meant nothing? You said the Rams averaged 33 ppg, well Todd Gurley was a huge part of that and he was damaged goods by the SB. That is very misleading.
So the 41 pts and 37 pts Brady dropped in the first two playoff games, meant nothing? You said the Rams averaged 33 ppg, well Todd Gurley was a huge part of that and he was damaged goods by the SB. That is very misleading.
With great power much is required and Bill could have had a chance to bring in talent as the GM but look at the results
Joy is the most sensible, unbiased person on this show and she shows it every show
😂
@@officialchoccypop ???
They’re all speaking the truth.
Joy is spot on 👌🏽
Let’s say if bill goes to the chargers with Herbert and Kellen Moore and with that big names on the defensive side he can change the defense and can win a superbowl. That’s what Brady did he went to Super Bowl ready team that just needed an elite QB.
You're crazy, Brady The GOAT was the reason for 6 SB rings.
Nah. In 2001 Belichick had the Patriots with Bledsoe and was on the hot seat to be fired. Team was 0-2 before Brady came in for the injured Bledsoe and took that team to win the SuperBowl. Stop talking hypotheticals with the Chargers. The scenario literally happened in New England and you ignore it.
Also, Belichick isn’t paying Herbert $262 Million. He’s use to taking that Brady discount.
Facts if he had the niners, the cowboys, eagles chargers , ravens bills they would instantly be superbowl faves ams winners
@@colbyryans1018 The problem is that Belitard would never be able to put together such teams.
@@colbyryans1018So if Belichick could take over teams that are already super bowl contenders Belichick would also make them super bowl caliber wow very insightful
Belichick believed in his own hype over Tom Brady's greatness.. They went from 1st to 3rd to in the AFC east since losing Brady.. When the Jets figure out their QB situation the Patriots will easily be the worst team in the division
McCoy hates bill cause bill always bottled him up 😂 dude is a 🤡
For many years, I believed Brady was average with a good coach. I have had to consider changing my mind. For example, Spoelstra has won without Lebron
Bill has a bad record without Brady. Tom was literally putting up similar numbers to rodgers when rodgers was “the best player we’ve ever seen” only difference was Brady was actually winning. He never got enough credit for the super bowls when he was in New England. He had to leave and win one in his first year on another team for people to start to notice.
How many rings does Spoelstra have without Lebron?
If you thought Brady was average then you are an absolute football illiterate. What part about throwing for 4/5 of the top passing games in SB history didn't you get? Brady's thrown for +300 yards in the playoffs an astronomical 18 times For Context (Manning 2nd all time at 6) Brady once threw for an NFL record 5 TD's in 1 quarter in a New England Snowstorm (2009 vs Titans) He's 9 for 9 for 9 TD's passing to a Linebacker (Mike Vrabel) take up another sport pal
I hated Bill and Tom, but they totally got two different situations going on. Tom went to a decent team and picked up Hall of Fame level talent to help win another Super Bowl and Bill got the ruins of the dynasty. After their first dynasty it took them 10 years to win and it 7 to get back to it. That’s happens to each dynasty the past 50 years
Pats were a basement dweller when Brady took over.
@@williamli6200 with the highest paid qb at the time but that’s why Brady worked. He was the killer in offense while bIll kept the game close. Also not the mention the two HOF kickers they both benefited from. A lot of those games were close
@@DaniloReport You think it is quite easy to score 24 points without a deep threat and without a redzone threat, don't you?
Well, check how Bengals failed to win a SB.
@@williamli6200 unfortunately I had to watch the whole dynasty but yeah when the whole team played solid like they did. Also no penalty on both side of the ball and so many luck plays on both sides.
@@DaniloReport Belichick needed *high QUALITY plays from his QB with a CHEAP squad.*
When he had such a QB, he looked like a genius; when he didn't, he looked like an id10t.
Brady delivered 3 comeback wins with much worse squad in 2001. You put THAT Brady in last 3 season, Belitard would stay as a "genius".
Bill is the new kodak and blockbuster. Yes it worked but it's old and things evolve.
Pac Man and Donkey Con
John Cougar cassette tape
Gotta love all the casual fans saying it was all Brady made Belichick. They complimented each other well. Brady left NE to a super team ready to win now. The bucs the year prior had gone 7-9 with their QB throwing 30 Ints, and BB is stuck at NE trying to rebuild a team after TB12 left them in shambles after he complained to Kraft BB was trying to replace him with Jimmy G, who you can say what you want, facts are facts, hes gone to the SB with another team. BB had been an average coach in other situations where he was only coach and not GM. Not till he got to NE did he obtain full autonomy of his team. BB has been in football for over 30 years. Dude is over 70 years old. Many 70 year olds cant even remember their name anymore. TB12 made BB just as much as BB made TB12. BB instilled a winning methodolgy in TB12 and always fielded a great team and built great game plans. It hurts to see all the slander put on the greatest coach of all time.
Andy Reid > Bill Belichick
I've BEEEEEEEEEN saying this for a while now. He got to the Superbowl even before he had Mahomes 👀
Bill isnt the same coach he used to be. The Pats were going downhill before Brady left. The Eagles SB was horribly coach
Idk, people don’t criticize Greg Popovich like this. Hes def one of the best the NBA has ever seen but he hasnt done much without Duncan, Kawhi, Parker, all the players that made the Spurs great. Im not a Bill Belichick fan and I dont watch the pats to know how good he actually is but the argument seems disingenuous to me. A coach can only be so good at the end of the day he’s not one of the guys out on the field making plays. A coach needs decent players to have a good team.
Thats because barring major injury the spurs usually aren't bad enough Poppovich to land a top5 pick. But he also developed Kawhi, Parker, Ginobli and others who were late 1st or 2nd round picks.
Tim never left and won another title while still playing at an elite level
🤦♂️Bill Belichick is the GM dude he the one who picks the players. The excuses and pleas have to stop.
This just goes to show how amazing Brady is
Joy just likes hearing herself talk even when it’s pointless
I actually think Reid is a better head coach than Bill. I used to think bill was the best but it was clearly Brady. They are mediocre without him
For a long time I wonder why head coaches are paid less than quarterback now it makes sense
The fact that Shady is saying if you put other coaches on these Patriots teams that Bill put together actually helps Bill's argument as a great coach. Like he put the teams together 🤦🏾♂️
Nah
The packer commentator hit it 100 .. i’m a Patriot fan. The team is like the Philadelphia 76rs nba team grieving AI3 ( a process that stays in place or still grieving since TB12 left whatever the case maybe
:"At the end of the day, It was ALL Tom."
The comp to Reid is so bad. McNabb was arguably a top 3 QB in the league at his peak (behind Peyton and Brady). Mac is a bottom 5 QB. As Joy said, the greatest coaches typically have great players. No one can be expected to compete for super bowls with bad players, especially when the bad player is the QB.
Now if we want to get in Belichick the GM, that legacy has certainly taken a hit. It's clear Brady was masking personnel flaws. But the coach? No, he's still unequivocally one of the greatest, and the Pats needed both to succeed the way they did.
The 2018 run is all you need as proof. In the conference game when the defense let Mahomes surge back, Brady needed to finish it off. In the super bowl when the Rams D held Brady in check, Belichick's D held the high-flying Rams offense even more in check.
Joy said it great coach needed a great players too. With respect to bill yes he didn’t have a good QB. The great thing about TB is that he wasn’t a natural born talent he work hard and developed it. That separates him to the rest.
This is so ridiculous. Belichick and Tom are great. In Pats first super bowl, Tom didn’t throw for 3000 yards. It’s not like he was some elite qb right away. Belichick deserves more credit for first few titles and less so moving forward. Saying Belichick isn’t a great coach is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard
Belichicks CAREER HEAD COACHING RECORD w/out a Tom Brady 80-90. Not even a .500 average. GOAT Head Coach?? What a joke!! 80-90 record as Head Coach w/out Brady.
So you're comparing 19 seasons with Tom Brady to 3 years and 4 games without him? How can you even make a comparison like that? They BOTH helped each other.
What is she saying the game has not changed like how she’s describing it
All facts
I’m going to agree to disagree.
They both needed each other
Brady:
always had top 5 defenses and O-lines
Brady:played in the AFC east for 20 years when it was the worst division in football for 20 years straight not one good player in 20 years besides Darrel revis
Brady: played with no joke about 25 HOF
Brady got lucky
Tuck rule
Seahawks not running at the 1 yard line
Falcons not running the ball in kicking 🦵 the 3 points
Gurley injured
Mahomes O-line was injured
dee ford offsides penalty AFC championship?
Go look at all brady Super Bowl wins never once he had a bad defense
The gm argument dumb just cuz you can coach talent dosent mean you can select it
Mike Holmgrin went to the Super Bowl with Hasselbeck not Pete Carroll
Why keep defending belichick? His work speaks for itself.
I am the biggest TB12 fan ever. But this is Bogus. They needed each other. He’s old now. Times have changed. Bill the GM has lost his fast ball. The talent is gone in NE. That train is long gone. Just like the Bulls. Bill’s Legacy is set in stone.
She knows her football
Acho is a little to drama school teacher for me.
I feel like those topic is like a rabbit hole, it has too many what ifs and will have you questioning everything and everyone
Did dude say that Pete Carroll went to the SB with Hasselbeck?
Just look at his record pre & post TB12 .
That's what happens when you don't have the Foxboro goat. If they had the same record but had Tom Brady, everyone knows that you would be seeing them come December.
Bill and Brady are equally responsible for those rings they were a perfect match. People want to diss one or the other facts are those Super Bowls were much more than those 2. Media need this Bill vs Brady bs😂