Robert Ritner & Theo van den Hout | The Battle of Kadesh: A Debate
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- Опубліковано 25 січ 2016
- The Battle of Kadesh: A Debate between the Egyptian and Hittite Perspectives
The Institute for the Study of Ancient Cultures Lecture Series organized by the University of Chicago brings notable scholars from around the country and abroad as they present on new breakthroughs, unique perspectives, and innovative research applications related to the Ancient Middle East.
The Battle of Kadesh, ca. 1285 BC, is the earliest military encounter that can be analyzed in detail. This conflict between the Egyptian forces of Ramses II and the Hittite army of Muwatalli was celebrated as a personal victory by Ramses, but is often treated by modern scholars as an Egyptian defeat or as a stalemate. In any case, the battle had profound impact on international politics of the age, with unexpected results. Join us for a lively debate presented from the two sides of the ancient conflict, provided by noted Institute for the Study of Ancient Cultures scholars Robert Ritner, The Rowe Professor of Egyptology, for the Egyptian side, and Theo van den Hout, Arthur and Joann Rasmussen professor of Hittite and Anatolian Languages, for the Hittites.
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It's so nice to see history presented properly as a serious, grownup field of study rather than as a branch of the entertainment industry as has become so common these days. What a great resource these lectures are!
Yep, very, very, very handy for history essays
Agreed, but I do appreciate their dry academic humor, and the format of the "debate", one person taking the perspective of each side of the battle, is sort of inherently funny, in a brainy sort of way.
How much truth Main stream Archeology & ancient history are presenting in lectures like this is open to debate ...m
the internet & world wide travel are
exposing fraud & calling into question the origins of man like never b4......
@@garyschultz7768 Lol. "I'm not saying it was aliens..."
Yup, also rather than a bunch of podcasters trying to "sexy it up" needlessly.
Dr Robert Ritner, you are an outstanding and brilliant scholar of world reknown. I follow your work and admire each and every lecture. I can't believe how much you breathe life into each and everyone of your cutting edge teachings. You are a tribute to the finest educational endeavors that abound out of the University of Chicago. You're the best Dr. Ritner. Thank you for adding so much to the body of knowledge and wisdom in our world. It means so much to so many. I have written numerous replies to your You Tube series due to the profound awakenings I have realized by engaging in your works. Thank you Dr. Ritner. R.J. from New Jersey
Did I miss mention of the letter between Hattusili III and Rameses about the battle? I think that's one of the more amusing letters from the ancient world. After the treaty was sealed, Hattusili heard about how Rameses was describing the battle, and wrote to Rameses complaining about how that's not how it was at all. (Hattusili was there, remember. And he briefly controlled territory south of Kadesh after his brother returned to Hatti.) We have Rameses' response to this complaint. In it, he insisted that every word was true, and went on to repeat the whole story to Hattusili in the letter! XD
Good presentation told with lots of enthusiasm by both speakers. I always like the presentations on the Hittites. They were so influential on our history and we only really know about them for a short time.
A fascinating lecture, and major obscure nerd cred to Professor van den Hout for using art from the Red River manga in the opener to his presentation. I thought I was the only one who read it!
Thank you so much for uploading it!
Pretty amazing that we have all this detail about such an ancient battle. I would like to see lectures on other ancient battles, such as the battle of Qarqar.
Excellent presentations by both and much appreciated. The hard work of archeology, preservation, allowing scholarly investigation and debate. These professional approaches stand impressive especially in reference to discoveries of Diplomacy 3000 years ago. Highlighting options instead of total war, where one side try's to erase the memory of the other. The latter can teach no lessons whatsoever to the advancement of civilization's. This case is particularly interesting relative to the continual clearing the way for non propagandist History. My hope is for the case "The truth is the best propaganda" Thanks again for the excellent information.
Thk u for this lecture on the battle of Kadesh. I appreciate the way it is narrated as well as tables shown.
These things really make me wish I grew up with UA-cam. Sad you can learn so much more about history on UA-cam than in history classes.
absolutely
MaOmbḁHūm Tabakḁ Tawwi Angūdḁ You peaked my interest. Why do you think that The Battle of Kadesh didn't take place?
So you think the Egyptians and Hittites both lied about fighting each other for what purpose? Also, but your requirement for things to be true...how is anything from history not a lie since they're all dead and didn't leave video footage?
Be very curious to know what parts of history you accept as real.
+MaOmbḁHūm “EmuNrakAti” Tabakḁ Tawwi Angūdḁ:Well, it would be difficult to find eye witnesses from that time. Documentation of archaic events can be spotty. Is your contention that the Battle of Kadesh didn't happen? Or is it Western Archaeological research that you are skeptical about?
A fascinating and amazing lecture. Thank you. I learnt a lot.
I can imagine a faculty meeting at the OI with discussions on how to increase attendance, etc. Then someone made the suggestion: “Why don’t we re-fight the Battle of Kadesh?” It was a brilliant idea.
I completely agree. There's something inherently funny about re-litigating a battle from 33 centuries ago. This must have been delightful to see appear on the schedule.
The picture the Hittite professor is using is from the manga "Red River". It's really good. I highly recommend it!
Thanks for this video
I think Professor van den Hout's joke at 1:04:05 about the Hittites leaving a "lasting impression" went criminally unrecognized.
can you explain me the joke please? I think I didn't got it correctly haha
Brilliant, thank you!
Nice details of history, thanks!
I find interesting that all this is happening around the time of the arrival of the ' sea people ' in all an absolutely fascinating time in history. Wonderful presentation of the arena at the time. Thx. 👍
This battle reminds me of the battle of Shiloh where Grant’s troops were surprised while cooking breakfast and had to beat a hasty retreat. The rebel soldiers were so famished that most broke off their attack to consume the abandoned food left in the camp. Were the Hittites “plundering” or were they just really hungry and looking for something to eat?
That was wonderful.
Is it that there are no definitions in Bunka and Bunmei?
Because I wonder. It isn't understood yet.
"Two shield-bearers for the Hittite King- slain." "Two charioteers for the Hittite King- slain." Ramses' story sure sounds good, but how did these four individuals (who would undoubtedly have personally accompanied the Hittite King) get "slain" if he was cowering behind Kadesh with the infantry?
I am watching the your lesson s. Im deep a prissier This lessons I am CP I am disabled and I cannot staying in the abraded thank you so much for your support and your team program thanks a lot.
And I d like to stading more long time and version
I am a majoring China’s Buddiesisms
I have master of art ‘s degree thanks so much
does all the OI content have this much high quality information and discussion?
Can anyone tell me what is the name of the book from which Prof. Robert Ritner explains Ramesses' campaigns after Kadesh? It's in the 57:00 time-frame. Thank you
Bill Manley, The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Egypt. London: 1996.
Thank you!
Tutmosis I
Tutmosis III
Amenhotep II
Tutmosis IV
Amenhotep III
Ramses II
Not sure what this list is, but you’re missing several from the succession.
There was no doubt a winner, whether Ramesses was being honest or not. The main thing that strikes me about the battle is that it's very far from either empire's centers of power. No matter how decisive the battle fought, it's going to be hard for either side to turn that into a crippling strategic defeat.
This is intelligent comedy for intelligent people. It's great.
These two are masters of the slick burn, and their timing is only off by 3300 years, but I can overlook that! I've listened to this one three times, I agree with you, this is intelligent comedy for intelligent people, and we might even learn a thing or two along the way.
Live watching these lecturers.they know there history.and no aliens or conspiracies theories.just facts and history
Ain't it the truth...I'm getting interested in ancient Near Eastern studies and it's annoying to have to wade through all the "space age tech in Mesopotamia"/magical Annuaki videos, which of course UA-cam's algorithm is now clogging my feed with. No, UA-cam, I want to learn about the birth of *actual* civilization.
Aliens man, don't Forget The Aliens.
My only complaint, and it isn't much of one, is the harsh language used by Ritner regarding the Amarna period. I think it's important to take a more measured approach rather than positioning Akhenaten as an antagonist in the narrative -- as if there are antagonists and protagonists in actuality, which there aren't. Yes, he facilitated instability, but that does not greenlight melodramatic responses or titles such as the "heretic king." My $0.02 anyhow.
@@atticus6572 I get that, but he did do away with all the gods except the Arten which makes him a heretic, but they is a lot more to him than that. he was probably ahead of his time with the worship of one good. unheard of back then
What a delight!
I am a bit confused but my confusion is based on ignorance. Some history videos--not of the same quality as a lecture from the Oriental Institute--have claimed that Tutankhamun was king during the battle of Kadesh. They even suggest he may have been there, been killed travelling there and that explains the poor quality of embalming of his remains. There is a famous, colorful wall painting, I think in a tomb, but not Tut's, depicting the battle of Kadesh. As I recall, Tut was 'identified' on a chariot or something.
Anyway, another Oriental Institute lecture noted that Egyptologists keep changing dates for when things happened. Is there any validity to King Tut being involved in Kadesh or is this completely made up to support various theories? Or am I thinking of another battle of Kadesh or another battle in the north?
Tut had no involvement in the Battle of Kadesh. He died long before then. We know so much about the battle because Rameses went on and on and on about it in his inscriptions.
Having said that, Tut - or more likely a general of his - might have come into conflict with the Hittites in the reign of Suppiluliuma mentioned in this lecture. Before the Egyptian queen wrote to Suppiluliuma, the Egyptians had attacked Kadesh. It is that raid that led Suppiluliuma to invade Egyptian territory, and the Egyptian queen's letter was written right after that invasion's successful completion. That means Tut (if that's the pharaoh who had died) might have been responsible for the raid on Kadesh. But there was no direct battle between the Egyptian and Hittite kings at that time. Perhaps someone has a hypothesis that Tut was killed fighting Suppiluliuma's invasion, but I find that highly improbable based on the evidence we have. While the Hittites were rather spartan in their description of battles, the circumstance that the queen who wrote to Suppiluliuma was the widow of the Egyptian king just killed by the Hittites... that would have merited mention.
@@Bramble451 The standard theory is that the army chief Horemheb was tied up fighting the Hittites when Tutankhamun died, allowing vizier Ay to take over the throne. Horemheb is thought to have killed Zananza.
@@awuma The movie The Egyptian, starring Victor Mature as Horemheb, is available on UA-cam, if you’re interested. It’s fun, even if a Hollywood take on Ancient Egypt.
Thanks 🙏💝
I mean absolutely no disrespect, but I feel as though Dr. Ritner fulfills the egyptian arrogance and Dr. Van Den Hout exemplifies how more practical the hittites tended to be. I really loved this debate.
I suspect he's doing this in a tongue-in-cheek manner.
I think they meant it that way. Role playing.
Practicality and barbarism......
It wasn’t a big stretch for van den Hout to portray an understated Dutch character.
Good afternoon. Perhaps anybody her has an idea of what disease was the plague that was brought by egiptian prisioners to Hatti?
No, but it apparently had a higher mortality rate than COVID-19. 😳
It's crazy so many thousand years later and the name of the city still has a meaning in Arabic which is related to the ancient semitic languages in that area. QDŠ or in Arabic QDS means holy. It's funny because we call the city of Jerusalem QDS (the holy one). So I thought this lecture is about a battle in ancient time in ancient Jerusalem first.
Do not send a secretary into battle! :P
sadly, watch this again now (post corona)
I had always thought that Hittite art was (I apologize) substandard, leading to its disregard by the West. So, it seems van den Hout might agree.
There are three problems with our appreciation of Hittite art today: (1) there's so very little of it left, (2) most of the pictures you see of it in books are generally of small items, which lack detail, and look kind of silly when out of context in a photo where you can't judge its true size, and (3) the large scale art is badly degraded and the surfaces were in many cases never fully carved, because the details would have been painted onto their surfaces.
Nevertheless, compared to the fine detail of the Assyrian artwork that came later, Hittite sculpture certainly appears almost childish. I think the finest examples of Hittite sculpture come from the Upper City gates of Hattusa, from the "King's Gate" (probably actually a god) and the "Sphinx Gate". While these are fine works of art, they certainly don't exceed that of their neighbors.
But the fact that we mostly only have artwork where we wouldn't actually expect much detail (because they're either small or the details would have been painted on) I believe gives us a false impression of what their world looked like. I imagine it was actually rather colorful.
Even on the great cathedrals of Europe, if you take out some of the individual sculptures from their facades, out of context many of those sculptures look rather pitiful.
this is fasccinating
+snowman72891 Glad you enjoyed it!
ROBERT RITNER!!! Yeaaaaaaaaaaah
Though I consider myself fairly well read on Hittite history, I didn't realize they moved their capitol from Hattusa for a time. Regarding the inactivity of the main Hittite force, I suspect they were mostly untrained militia that their king didn't think would be reliable against the Egyptian chariots, not unlike the vast militia forces raised by Darius against Alexander almost a thousand years later that proved useless.
Has anyone else watch this with subtitles on? Makes for a pretty entertaining viewing, highly recommend 🤣👍
Wondering about the fo5oli4sh laughs of some guests at the beginning!! Some weirdos in a respectable nice lecture.
Yeah,interesting pre-dynastic stories of Egypt and Hittle empire,both are mystery,bizarre and enigma nations in the world.Ancient relics proof everyone the truth.
What means Egypt😁?
Assyrias’s fall was indirectly the fault of king Esarhaddon because he rebuilt Babylon city in which Babylon later revolts against Assyria. Ashurbanipal is to be blamed directly, because he died leaving a child king in an empire based on centralized power system.
Shows just how important a Succession Principle is to the functioning and stability of a state.
Alot of " um's" for an academic
Is Kadesh is same as Kadisha Valley in Lebanon?
Usually historiens tell you "Ur in today's Iraq".
But when it comes to Kadesh, they NEVER say where it is on todays map!!
PS. Syria translates to todays Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and part of Jorden.
I don't think Ramses II won the battle, his blunder simply overstated the importance of Kadesh in the eyes of Egyptologists.
Were Moses and Israelities shock troops of Ramsess II?
Pigj1ew£
You had a few dozen listeners in the room for this. Up to now you've had 66 comments, which means far more viewers on the 'Net than in the room.
Why, then, are all your production values, uh, oriented toward your live listeners? That Doonesbury cartoon, for instance? Why can they see it while we can't? Why is it recorded in front of that echoing hard wooden wall, rather than at a sit-down microphone tested for its audibility over ur computers?
Long~short: what do you dopes think you are doing here?
What ever happened to civility?
I don't think you understand the meaning of Liter-A-תורה . Kadesh comes from קדש or קדם (QDS) and better pronounced ''Feeds" meaning "East". All the sky comes from the east, feed direction. Road to east. Liter-A-Ture is a ''basket to Tour'' in. This is all poetry written by the Medic. Remises is spelled Rome SS in "HeBrew" and Ægyptus didn't exist until it was Æ (Ash)gy upt us. Sieged up.
"Two shield-bearers for the Hittite King- slain." "Two charioteers for the Hittite King- slain." Ramses' story sure sounds good, but how did these four individuals (who would undoubtedly have personally accompanied the Hittite King) get "slain" if he was cowering behind Kadesh with the infantry?
The royal guard is ordered to support the first wave of chariots at the Egyptian camp during or after the Egyptian chariot counterattack